:00:36. > :00:40.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:41. > :00:46.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:47. > :00:47.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:48. > :00:50.issues at stake on Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:51. > :00:59.senior party figures from the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal
:01:00. > :01:02.Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever we'll be discussing the week ahead
:01:03. > :01:12.with our panel of top political commentators.
:01:13. > :01:17.Who is to blame for the failure of Norbert's incinerator plan?
:01:18. > :01:22.newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not
:01:23. > :01:28.impartial about informing people of local services.
:01:29. > :01:32.So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next
:01:33. > :01:34.thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections
:01:35. > :01:37.Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives
:01:38. > :01:40.in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of
:01:41. > :01:43.MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and
:01:44. > :01:54.Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.
:01:55. > :01:56.In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the
:01:57. > :02:05.elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.
:02:06. > :02:09.And that privilege goes to Syed Before that, though, here's a quick
:02:10. > :02:14.reminder of what all the fuss is about.
:02:15. > :02:19.The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on
:02:20. > :02:23.Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in
:02:24. > :02:24.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73
:02:25. > :02:29.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the
:02:30. > :02:33.vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there
:02:34. > :02:39.vote is a form of proportional 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:40. > :02:43.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:44. > :02:47.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:48. > :02:53.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:54. > :03:00.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:03:01. > :03:06.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:07. > :03:11.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:12. > :03:15.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:16. > :03:19.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:20. > :03:23.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:24. > :03:28.will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives
:03:29. > :03:30.will not and UKIP simply cannot the three yards, with Conservative
:03:31. > :03:34.MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,
:03:35. > :03:42.really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.
:03:43. > :03:46.Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe
:03:47. > :03:49.vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,
:03:50. > :03:53.fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing
:03:54. > :03:57.patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian
:03:58. > :04:01.roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting
:04:02. > :04:08.with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal
:04:09. > :04:13.Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah
:04:14. > :04:18.Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are
:04:19. > :04:23.about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.
:04:24. > :04:27.Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to
:04:28. > :04:32.help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that
:04:33. > :04:36.bills are brought down for good Labour believes in reform in Europe,
:04:37. > :04:40.but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain s
:04:41. > :04:46.prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put
:04:47. > :04:54.British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick
:04:55. > :04:58.O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an
:04:59. > :05:00.era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project
:05:01. > :05:05.designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old
:05:06. > :05:13.hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people
:05:14. > :05:18.European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed
:05:19. > :05:24.out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.
:05:25. > :05:27.That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.
:05:28. > :05:33.Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the
:05:34. > :05:36.selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock
:05:37. > :05:41.the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We
:05:42. > :05:48.can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain
:05:49. > :05:50.wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power
:05:51. > :05:58.and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain
:05:59. > :06:01.leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.
:06:02. > :06:04.We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an
:06:05. > :06:11.example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.
:06:12. > :06:15.Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip
:06:16. > :06:20.to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think
:06:21. > :06:25.of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European
:06:26. > :06:28.Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David
:06:29. > :06:34.Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,
:06:35. > :06:41.he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside
:06:42. > :06:44.him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I
:06:45. > :06:53.gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our
:06:54. > :06:55.supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to
:06:56. > :07:01.change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a
:07:02. > :07:05.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no
:07:06. > :07:10.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer
:07:11. > :07:16.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United
:07:17. > :07:20.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the
:07:21. > :07:25.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no
:07:26. > :07:28.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read
:07:29. > :07:30.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at
:07:31. > :07:39.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of
:07:40. > :07:44.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to
:07:45. > :07:46.leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not
:07:47. > :07:49.leave, is that right? If at the time changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:50. > :07:56.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:57. > :08:04.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:05. > :08:10.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:11. > :08:15.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:16. > :08:20.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:21. > :08:26.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:27. > :08:31.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:32. > :08:34.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:35. > :08:38.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:39. > :08:42.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:43. > :08:45.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:46. > :08:51.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:52. > :08:55.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:56. > :09:01.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:09:02. > :09:07.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:08. > :09:13.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why
:09:14. > :09:16.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:17. > :09:20.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:21. > :09:24.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:25. > :09:28.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:29. > :09:33.a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your
:09:34. > :09:37.leader missing to European leaders. Why is your
:09:38. > :09:44.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.
:09:45. > :09:47.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be
:09:48. > :09:56.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will
:09:57. > :10:01.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg
:10:02. > :10:05.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the
:10:06. > :10:09.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can
:10:10. > :10:16.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,
:10:17. > :10:19.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that
:10:20. > :10:24.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this
:10:25. > :10:28.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster
:10:29. > :10:32.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick
:10:33. > :10:39.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that
:10:40. > :10:43.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is
:10:44. > :10:48.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the
:10:49. > :10:51.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative
:10:52. > :10:56.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all
:10:57. > :11:05.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or
:11:06. > :11:10.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote
:11:11. > :11:15.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country it
:11:16. > :11:19.may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.
:11:20. > :11:23.We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,
:11:24. > :11:30.our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we
:11:31. > :11:34.not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to
:11:35. > :11:37.immigration. We have been open to people across the world for
:11:38. > :11:42.centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to
:11:43. > :11:46.pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are
:11:47. > :11:49.three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,
:11:50. > :11:54.and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,
:11:55. > :11:58.and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that
:11:59. > :12:01.only this week the office for National said that they did not
:12:02. > :12:05.collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra
:12:06. > :12:10.people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size
:12:11. > :12:16.of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over
:12:17. > :12:22.the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I
:12:23. > :12:28.accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In
:12:29. > :12:33.the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the
:12:34. > :12:37.EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have
:12:38. > :12:42.to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute
:12:43. > :12:48.positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I
:12:49. > :12:51.will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David
:12:52. > :12:54.Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they
:12:55. > :12:59.really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of
:13:00. > :13:05.thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see
:13:06. > :13:06.now it is back up to 212,000 a year because
:13:07. > :13:11.now it is back up to 212,000 a year and no quality control from
:13:12. > :13:15.immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:16. > :13:20.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:21. > :13:24.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:25. > :13:33.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:34. > :13:44.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:45. > :13:50.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:51. > :13:57.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:58. > :14:00.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:14:01. > :14:04.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:05. > :14:08.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:09. > :14:21.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:22. > :14:24.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:25. > :14:33.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:34. > :14:35.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:36. > :14:39.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:40. > :14:43.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:44. > :14:46.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:47. > :14:49.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:50. > :14:57.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:58. > :15:03.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:04. > :15:08.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:09. > :15:16.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:17. > :15:23.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:24. > :15:28.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:29. > :15:32.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:33. > :15:37.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We
:15:38. > :15:41.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:42. > :15:44.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:45. > :15:48.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:49. > :15:54.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:55. > :16:00.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:16:01. > :16:05.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:06. > :16:11.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:12. > :16:17.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:18. > :16:22.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:23. > :16:27.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:28. > :16:34.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:35. > :16:36.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence
:16:37. > :16:41.benefits are changing, changing the going to say that migrants can't
:16:42. > :16:44.come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the
:16:45. > :16:49.country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say
:16:50. > :16:52.it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and
:16:53. > :16:55.multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They
:16:56. > :17:00.are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality
:17:01. > :17:04.control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.
:17:05. > :17:10.In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big
:17:11. > :17:19.businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool
:17:20. > :17:26.place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to
:17:27. > :17:29.Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think
:17:30. > :17:34.Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their
:17:35. > :17:41.backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might
:17:42. > :17:45.not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often
:17:46. > :17:49.come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it
:17:50. > :17:55.represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative
:17:56. > :17:58.Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it
:17:59. > :18:01.character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther
:18:02. > :18:06.and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics
:18:07. > :18:12.between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk
:18:13. > :18:15.time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have
:18:16. > :18:18.trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade
:18:19. > :18:23.deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United
:18:24. > :18:26.States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in
:18:27. > :18:31.favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a
:18:32. > :18:36.moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We
:18:37. > :18:40.have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants
:18:41. > :18:45.coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.
:18:46. > :18:53.How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.
:18:54. > :18:57.Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout
:18:58. > :19:01.in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs
:19:02. > :19:05.spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we
:19:06. > :19:10.undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we
:19:11. > :19:13.speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of
:19:14. > :19:17.speak. Europe is facing, for the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:18. > :19:21.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:22. > :19:26.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:27. > :19:33.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:34. > :19:37.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:38. > :19:41.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:42. > :19:45.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:46. > :19:48.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:49. > :19:53.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:54. > :19:57.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:58. > :20:02.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:03. > :20:10.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .
:20:11. > :20:13.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:14. > :20:18.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:19. > :20:24.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:25. > :20:28.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:29. > :20:32.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:33. > :20:36.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:37. > :20:41.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:42. > :20:46.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:47. > :20:52.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:53. > :20:58.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:59. > :21:03.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:04. > :21:07.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:08. > :21:13."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:14. > :21:17.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:18. > :21:26.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:27. > :21:31.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:32. > :21:38.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:39. > :21:43.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the
:21:44. > :21:46.mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:47. > :21:52.policy. We had an Anglo French against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:53. > :21:58.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.
:21:59. > :22:03.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other
:22:04. > :22:08.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin
:22:09. > :22:13.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have
:22:14. > :22:17.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and
:22:18. > :22:23.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,
:22:24. > :22:27.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is
:22:28. > :22:33.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said
:22:34. > :22:37.that the idea of an EU Army was "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not
:22:38. > :22:41.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and
:22:42. > :22:44.controlled drones working on etch U-owned and
:22:45. > :22:50.the President of the European Parliament has said that the
:22:51. > :22:53.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:54. > :22:58.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:59. > :23:01.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:23:02. > :23:05.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:06. > :23:10.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:11. > :23:14.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:15. > :23:19.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:20. > :23:24.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:25. > :23:30.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:31. > :23:32.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:33. > :23:37.other -- on common equipment, quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:38. > :23:41.they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a
:23:42. > :23:45.European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those
:23:46. > :23:48.jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the
:23:49. > :23:53.Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since
:23:54. > :23:58.the start of the fist world war Remember that Europe was set up to
:23:59. > :24:02.try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on
:24:03. > :24:05.Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries
:24:06. > :24:10.in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to
:24:11. > :24:15.keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the
:24:16. > :24:19.Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,
:24:20. > :24:25.retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse
:24:26. > :24:29.retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers
:24:30. > :24:32.-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign
:24:33. > :24:39.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I
:24:40. > :24:42.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David
:24:43. > :24:47.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than
:24:48. > :24:51.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in
:24:52. > :24:54.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times
:24:55. > :24:58.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to
:24:59. > :25:03.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are
:25:04. > :25:07.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear
:25:08. > :25:12.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.
:25:13. > :25:18.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through
:25:19. > :25:22.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from
:25:23. > :25:27.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and
:25:28. > :25:32.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of .. ?
:25:33. > :25:35.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is
:25:36. > :25:38.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we
:25:39. > :25:42.work with our European partners sometimes we work with our
:25:43. > :25:48.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work
:25:49. > :25:53.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country
:25:54. > :26:00.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't
:26:01. > :26:07.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts The
:26:08. > :26:12.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our
:26:13. > :26:16.expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have
:26:17. > :26:21.actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but
:26:22. > :26:26.unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to
:26:27. > :26:32.cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies
:26:33. > :26:38.I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any
:26:39. > :26:44.other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes We
:26:45. > :26:49.voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups
:26:50. > :26:53.haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.
:26:54. > :26:58.Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.
:26:59. > :27:02.You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we
:27:03. > :27:08.don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your
:27:09. > :27:11.attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn
:27:12. > :27:15.up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,
:27:16. > :27:20.UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they
:27:21. > :27:25.didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party
:27:26. > :27:29.decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP
:27:30. > :27:35.representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me
:27:36. > :27:41.saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are
:27:42. > :27:46.quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord
:27:47. > :27:52.and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't
:27:53. > :27:54.you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were
:27:55. > :27:59.jailed for expenses and benefits' crasscy. Two of your MEPs were
:28:00. > :28:04.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:05. > :28:09.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:10. > :28:12.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:13. > :28:18.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:19. > :28:21.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:22. > :28:27.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:28. > :28:31.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:32. > :28:34.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:35. > :28:41.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work
:28:42. > :28:45.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:46. > :28:50.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:51. > :28:55.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:56. > :28:59.course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should
:29:00. > :29:03.do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates
:29:04. > :29:06.and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling
:29:07. > :29:12.out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry
:29:13. > :29:15.found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week
:29:16. > :29:20.in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called
:29:21. > :29:26.the police fascists. These people aren't here.
:29:27. > :29:31.I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let
:29:32. > :29:34.him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:35. > :29:40.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:41. > :29:47.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:48. > :29:52.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:53. > :29:58.are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:59. > :30:03.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:04. > :30:09.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:10. > :30:13.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:14. > :30:16.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:17. > :30:20.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:21. > :30:23.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:24. > :30:29.each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign
:30:30. > :30:32.a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.
:30:33. > :30:37.Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you
:30:38. > :30:42.confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is
:30:43. > :30:47.about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about
:30:48. > :30:53.the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's
:30:54. > :30:57.regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund
:30:58. > :31:01.to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most
:31:02. > :31:04.destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I
:31:05. > :31:08.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:09. > :31:11.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:12. > :31:21.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:22. > :31:27.Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems
:31:28. > :31:31.Tony Blair gave away our rebate He make sure that we apply for money to
:31:32. > :31:34.help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want
:31:35. > :31:38.the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party
:31:39. > :31:44.and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour
:31:45. > :31:51.victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the
:31:52. > :31:56.future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice
:31:57. > :32:00.Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the
:32:01. > :32:08.commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,
:32:09. > :32:12.if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the
:32:13. > :32:17.fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has
:32:18. > :32:20.led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world It
:32:21. > :32:23.is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about
:32:24. > :32:28.the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner
:32:29. > :32:31.for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common
:32:32. > :32:37.agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make
:32:38. > :32:43.Europe more democratic and open But against the rise of Brazil and
:32:44. > :32:49.China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more
:32:50. > :32:54.action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?
:32:55. > :32:59.No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional
:33:00. > :33:03.matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe
:33:04. > :33:10.progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We
:33:11. > :33:16.need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the
:33:17. > :33:19.EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on
:33:20. > :33:24.that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because
:33:25. > :33:32.the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In
:33:33. > :33:40.some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not
:33:41. > :33:42.sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is
:33:43. > :33:50.a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on
:33:51. > :33:55.the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want
:33:56. > :33:59.to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in
:34:00. > :34:01.national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big
:34:02. > :34:06.challenges. Would have the support to tackle those big
:34:07. > :34:15.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:16. > :34:18.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:19. > :34:23.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:24. > :34:30.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:31. > :34:35.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:36. > :34:39.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:40. > :34:44.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:45. > :34:48.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:49. > :34:53.partnership in specific serious I'd tell you what, can I just say..
:34:54. > :34:56.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:57. > :35:01.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:35:02. > :35:06.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:07. > :35:11.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:12. > :35:15.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:16. > :35:21.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:22. > :35:25.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:26. > :35:31.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:32. > :35:36.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:37. > :35:40.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:41. > :35:46.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:47. > :35:50.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:51. > :35:58.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:59. > :36:04.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:05. > :36:12.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:13. > :36:15.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:16. > :36:17.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:18. > :36:22.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:23. > :36:25.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:26. > :36:28.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:29. > :36:34.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:35. > :36:39.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:40. > :36:44.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:45. > :36:49.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:50. > :36:52.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:53. > :36:57.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:58. > :37:07.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:08. > :37:13.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:14. > :37:18.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:19. > :37:23.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:24. > :37:29.because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.
:37:30. > :37:31.I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to
:37:32. > :37:33.debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:34. > :37:36.watching the It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:37. > :37:39.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:37:40. > :37:49.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:50. > :37:58.Welcome to the programme. I am a Etholle George. Coming up, the
:37:59. > :38:02.school claiming that it is being pushed into being an Academx,
:38:03. > :38:08.despite the wishes of parents and staff. It should not be forced to
:38:09. > :38:17.become an Academy when the parents and staff do not want it. Plans to
:38:18. > :38:25.build an incinerator is scr`pped when a decision is failed to be met.
:38:26. > :38:28.No one knows what the Secretary of State will do in regards to the
:38:29. > :38:37.planning report on the incinerator. It is still outstanding. Let us meet
:38:38. > :38:45.our guests. Baroness Angela Smith for Labour. And the Lib Mahdr of
:38:46. > :39:06.Bedford. The only elected m`yor in the East. `` Lib Dem mayor. Vince
:39:07. > :39:14.Cable met people running sm`ll businesses when he opened a college.
:39:15. > :39:21.There are very good projects in parts of the country like this and
:39:22. > :39:26.weather our we are putting hn money. There are factories with
:39:27. > :39:34.high`tech work bringing in private investment and providing long`term
:39:35. > :39:36.unemployment. This is about rebalancing the economy in the
:39:37. > :39:51.North. I weigh not missing out as a region? We would like to be getting
:39:52. > :39:56.more money because we can hdlp the growth that the country needs. I
:39:57. > :40:02.understand Vince Cable's pohnts about rebalancing that I thhnk that
:40:03. > :40:08.the growth can get from somd of the innovative projects in our region is
:40:09. > :40:14.good. Angela Smith, are we getting our fair share? I am quite worried 6
:40:15. > :40:28.million out of three hundred does not sound like making the most of
:40:29. > :40:34.the Eastern region. These are only bets `` bids and we have to get the
:40:35. > :40:48.money to the people so they can spend it and create jobs. Some
:40:49. > :40:55.people have pulled out altogether. Dave Hodgson, are some businesses
:40:56. > :41:04.coming forward? We are encotraging people from Beds and it is hmportant
:41:05. > :41:18.that we support them and make the best case. We need to reducd the
:41:19. > :41:24.bureaucracy. Too many pulling out and not getting the money at the
:41:25. > :41:30.end. And no to a David and Goliath battle over Academy schools. Academy
:41:31. > :41:35.is a free from local authorhty control and are funded directly from
:41:36. > :41:38.central government. They give greater freedom to schools over
:41:39. > :41:41.things like curriculum. The government believes Academy schools
:41:42. > :41:52.perform better and has a policy that all schools and those in spdcial
:41:53. > :41:59.measures should become an Academy. One school, Cavell Primary School,
:42:00. > :42:06.is being forced to become an Academy even though it has come out special
:42:07. > :42:18.measures. This family has two children, seven and four. One goes
:42:19. > :42:33.to school at Cavell Primary School and the other two are nastily linked
:42:34. > :42:49.to the school. `` and the other to a nastily `` nursery links to the
:42:50. > :42:58.school. Michael Gove says all schools in special measures must be
:42:59. > :43:07.turned into academies. This is why Mr Ward and other parents h`ve
:43:08. > :43:10.formed a campaign group. Thdre has been no proper consultation and we
:43:11. > :43:15.have been told this is happdning and will happen from the 1st of July and
:43:16. > :43:33.that is it. I do not think that anything we say will make any
:43:34. > :43:39.difference whatsoever. John of Gaunt is a cooperative trust and that is
:43:40. > :43:43.what parents of Cavell Prim`ry School on their school to bdcome.
:43:44. > :43:50.Cooperative trusts also follow the national curriculum whereas Academy
:43:51. > :44:09.schools are not obliged to do so. Last month, Ofsted give John of
:44:10. > :44:14.Gaunt a good report and people are putting this down to it being a
:44:15. > :44:18.cooperative school. Everybody has a say and we are looking at w`ys that
:44:19. > :44:24.we can make sure that all the ideas come from everybody. Back in
:44:25. > :44:29.Norwich, this man is a formdr governor of Cavell Primary School.
:44:30. > :44:36.He is applying for a judici`l review at the High Court. I feel
:44:37. > :44:40.disappointed and angry and H think that Cavell Primary School has been
:44:41. > :44:43.treated very harshly. It is a school that is improving and is out of
:44:44. > :44:47.special measures and should not be forced to become an Academy and the
:44:48. > :44:54.parents and staff they did not wish it to become an Academy. Thd
:44:55. > :44:57.National Association of head teachers is also supporting the case
:44:58. > :45:03.and says it could have wide consequences. It could becole a
:45:04. > :45:13.landmark case and there is ` danger that forced academies nation will
:45:14. > :45:16.continue and that is a real worry. You are powerless when it comes to
:45:17. > :45:25.what the government wants for the academies, are you not? We `re, yes.
:45:26. > :45:32.We have 50 academies in Norfolk and now and it is outside my control.
:45:33. > :45:37.The interim executive board was appointed to decide Academy status.
:45:38. > :45:46.It implies interference frol the County Council and government,
:45:47. > :45:49.saying, the pressure from the local authority and the Department for
:45:50. > :45:51.Education to promote this is alienating people and creatdd an
:45:52. > :46:04.atmosphere of suspicion and mistrust. At the moment, thd school
:46:05. > :46:06.will become an Academy in Jtly. The decision of the High Court will
:46:07. > :46:13.determine what happens in other schools across the country. We
:46:14. > :46:16.wanted to put the points in the film to the Department for Education but
:46:17. > :46:46.they declined an interview. They did send us this statement.
:46:47. > :47:03.Angela Smith, the DfEE say that sponsored academies are improving
:47:04. > :47:08.faster. . Was not time that something had to be done? The school
:47:09. > :47:16.was turning around and you do have two mind what parents save. That is
:47:17. > :47:20.what Cavell Primary School hs done. They are not education expects but
:47:21. > :47:26.they work with the experts. The changes this government has made to
:47:27. > :47:30.academies has become ideological. Academies can no longer specialise
:47:31. > :47:33.nearly as an do no longer h`ve the same consultation issues we had
:47:34. > :47:40.under the last government. Who wants to have parents and happy? H think
:47:41. > :47:44.the trust school that we saw there, you saw how they engage in the
:47:45. > :47:54.community and in every case those schools improve. That can not be
:47:55. > :47:58.said of the academies. Dave Hodgson, you have a similar school that was
:47:59. > :48:11.deemed to be failing six months ago and as soon `` and has now been told
:48:12. > :48:18.it will be becoming an Acaddmy. Where do you stand on this? I think
:48:19. > :48:29.it is being led by dogma and ideology. It is no kind of choice.
:48:30. > :48:32.We should come back to a local decision for local people and
:48:33. > :48:36.parents and governors working with the local authority. We continue to
:48:37. > :48:52.invest in the school improvdment team. As an elected Maher, ``
:48:53. > :49:01.mayor, do you have any powers? Know I don't. Does that not have to be a
:49:02. > :49:07.cut`off somewhere? If the school has been struggling for four ye`rs, the
:49:08. > :49:11.line has to be drawn? What would've happened under last governmdnt issue
:49:12. > :49:22.would have is asked if the parents wanted an Academy and you would have
:49:23. > :49:34.given the choice. The government say that it has been decided th`t this
:49:35. > :49:37.has happened. It is led by dogma. While the government is keen to
:49:38. > :49:44.enforce its views on educathon, it is not so forthcoming when ht comes
:49:45. > :49:51.to planning decisions. Plans were rubber`stamped by councillors to
:49:52. > :49:57.abandon a proposed incineration plant in King's Lynn. The council
:49:58. > :50:00.says it is pulling the plug now because the Local Government
:50:01. > :50:08.Secretary, Eric Pickles, sthll has not decided whether to grant the
:50:09. > :50:11.scheme. The delay is set to add ?140,000 per day to the project and
:50:12. > :50:15.the council says by the sumler it will no longer offer value for
:50:16. > :50:20.money. The building industrx says cases like these are worrying
:50:21. > :50:30.examples of how government indecision and wreck import`nt
:50:31. > :50:36.projects. Derek Murphy says that novel has been dropped in it by the
:50:37. > :50:44.government. He says the planning process must be speeded up. No one
:50:45. > :50:54.knows what the Secretary of State will do in regards to the planning
:50:55. > :50:57.report. It is still outstanding It did not adhere to itself imposed
:50:58. > :51:04.deadline of January this ye`r. If he had done, project we were long gone
:51:05. > :51:08.forward but as he has not, `nd as we have no knowledge of when hd will
:51:09. > :51:11.make a decision, it was verx difficult to do so. He has not come
:51:12. > :51:15.out with any reason yet why he should refuse planning permhssion.
:51:16. > :51:18.He has said he has written to the Planning Inspectorate were some
:51:19. > :51:22.questions that have yet to be answered but we do not know what
:51:23. > :51:26.these questions are and it would be nice if he were more open and
:51:27. > :51:30.upfront cos this is such an important project for Norfolk
:51:31. > :51:34.because it has involved hugd amounts of money. Both the opponents of this
:51:35. > :51:41.project and those who wanted it to go ahead on to a decision. Ht has a
:51:42. > :51:45.very debilitating effect on potential infrastructure projects of
:51:46. > :51:52.the large amount of money which take a lot of time to develop. Once
:51:53. > :51:56.something has been called in by the Secretary of State you know you re
:51:57. > :52:02.in difficult circumstances. However it is true that the process could be
:52:03. > :52:06.made faster. This is about jobs and promoting growth on the grotnd and
:52:07. > :52:21.that is why we have talked `bout prioritising original infrastructure
:52:22. > :52:26.that can deliver growth. We are 24th out of 30 in the global lead for
:52:27. > :52:31.infrastructure. Earlier this week, Andrew Sinclair met Henry Bdllingham
:52:32. > :52:37.who was opposed to the plan from the start. He asked why it was taking
:52:38. > :52:47.the Secretary of State, Eric Pickles, so long to make a decision.
:52:48. > :52:51.The inspector spent six weeks to seven weeks because he had so much
:52:52. > :52:58.to deal with. The report is not in any way unusual in the line of time
:52:59. > :53:03.that it takes because the previous secretary of state to two ydars to
:53:04. > :53:13.decide about the other Cory Wheelabrator incinerator at
:53:14. > :53:19.Bexleyheath. But he said he made a decision in January but we still do
:53:20. > :53:22.not know when it will be. That is all part of meeting targets but this
:53:23. > :53:29.was a particularly, dated rdport and he was never at in all realhsm going
:53:30. > :53:33.to be ready by January. The government keeps talking about
:53:34. > :53:42.speeding up the planning process. What message the descent of the
:53:43. > :53:46.construction industry? I thhnk it makes sense to Cory Wheelabrator.
:53:47. > :53:50.You have to get the community onside if you're working on a big
:53:51. > :53:59.construction project. But the fact that so long has been taken to make
:54:00. > :54:09.the session, does that not lake communities where they? The
:54:10. > :54:14.community was engaged in Suffolk and it was handled incredibly
:54:15. > :54:18.professionally and very well and sensitively and it went through
:54:19. > :54:23.This has been handled in a crass and ridiculous and stupid way. Whenever
:54:24. > :54:32.you have a big infrastructure projects such as expanding `nd a
:54:33. > :54:36.road are building a new nuclear power station at Sizewell, xou will
:54:37. > :54:45.always have people complainhng. That is why we have a Secretary of State
:54:46. > :54:51.moving things forward. As soon as that referendum to place, the County
:54:52. > :54:56.Council and Cory Wheelabrator said they would not go ahead. We cannot
:54:57. > :55:03.overcome that level of opposition. They tried to bulldozer through over
:55:04. > :55:10.local people and you cannot do that. This was a Conservative County
:55:11. > :55:17.Council which decided to put ahead `` push ahead. How do you mdnd
:55:18. > :55:21.fences? This has been a verx bruising and difficult five years
:55:22. > :55:24.and I have been at war with Conservative county councillors and
:55:25. > :55:30.I do not want to start workhng with them again `` I do want to start
:55:31. > :55:40.working with them again in ` constructive way for the benefit of
:55:41. > :55:50.people in Norfolk. That was no official statement. Angela Smith,
:55:51. > :55:53.there could be an enquiry into how Norfolk has got into this mdss. Do
:55:54. > :55:59.you think they could have done better? I really feel for the
:56:00. > :56:06.council on this one and the government is good on passing
:56:07. > :56:10.legislation. The government has taken that further and are trying to
:56:11. > :56:13.make it quicker but the Secretary of State holds the whole thing up and
:56:14. > :56:17.that is a real danger for the council and I imagine the council
:56:18. > :56:21.regrets having to spend the money cancelling the contract but I do not
:56:22. > :56:26.see what choice they have if they have lost the money from thd
:56:27. > :56:34.government. Dave Hodgson, where do you stand on this? I think there are
:56:35. > :56:37.better ways to deal with waste and we have an even larger incinerator
:56:38. > :56:42.which has had planning permhssion which was the only decision taken by
:56:43. > :56:49.the infrastructure planning commission against local fedlings.
:56:50. > :56:58.The bypass and Bedford has support and other projects about support
:56:59. > :57:05.from the public, but it's dhfficult to see how it can work centrally
:57:06. > :57:11.when we're talking about making more decisions locally. To be 24th out of
:57:12. > :57:16.30 in the league does not sound great for infrastructure. Something
:57:17. > :57:19.is going badly wrong and I would not want to ride roughshod over local
:57:20. > :57:26.opinion. I thought Henry Bellingham made a very good point about
:57:27. > :57:31.engagement. We have to look at where incinerators and waste facilities
:57:32. > :57:35.are built and how the impact on local people. These things lust be
:57:36. > :57:38.taken into account. That surely government and local governlent can
:57:39. > :57:44.work together to achieve a luch better process. Eric Pickles said he
:57:45. > :57:53.could do it in January. How do you balance this? The big incindrator
:57:54. > :57:58.has had planning permission but the company is up for sale so hopefully
:57:59. > :58:01.it may not go ahead. When the Secretary of State has said
:58:02. > :58:18.January, we need to stick to that date. That does affect what happens
:58:19. > :58:31.locally. This week, once thd new flood defences proved to be
:58:32. > :58:38.unwelcome. Southend council approved plans for a seven foot high sea
:58:39. > :58:41.wall. Two Northamptonshire LPs have launched their own referendtm on
:58:42. > :58:49.whether Britain should stay in the European Union. It is an idda of
:58:50. > :58:59.giving the biggest referendtm since the 1970s. The MP for South
:59:00. > :59:08.Northamptonshire has become the new economic Secretary to the Treasury.
:59:09. > :59:18.Harriet Harman set out the vision of labour for Milton Keynes. Wd have to
:59:19. > :59:27.work hard to win the trust of every voter. David Cameron offered advice
:59:28. > :59:37.for a little light reading. The novel by the Honourable fridnd for
:59:38. > :59:51.mid Beds. Dave Hodgson, do xou get much time to read? If I had the
:59:52. > :00:07.choice I think I would read the Secret Diaries of Adrian Mole. I
:00:08. > :00:11.love spy books and I am looking forward to the James Naughthe book.
:00:12. > :00:29.I'm also looking forward to the Peter Hennessy book. Dave Hodgson,
:00:30. > :00:38.is there a book in you? Verx briefly, no. That is all from us. We
:00:39. > :00:40.are off for two weeks over Daster and we will bring you the
:00:41. > :00:51.risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you,
:00:52. > :00:54.Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the
:00:55. > :00:56.London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.
:00:57. > :01:07.Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.
:01:08. > :01:12.We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the
:01:13. > :01:16.debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to
:01:17. > :01:21.bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four
:01:22. > :01:25.parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know
:01:26. > :01:29.much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament
:01:30. > :01:38.works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of
:01:39. > :01:41.light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not
:01:42. > :01:48.going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing
:01:49. > :01:53.that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are
:01:54. > :01:58.not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks
:01:59. > :02:01.lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that
:02:02. > :02:08.because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP
:02:09. > :02:14.and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the
:02:15. > :02:17.issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these
:02:18. > :02:21.individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because
:02:22. > :02:25.these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of
:02:26. > :02:32.making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know
:02:33. > :02:35.the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong
:02:36. > :02:40.opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the
:02:41. > :02:46.immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at
:02:47. > :02:50.that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this
:02:51. > :02:53.European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on
:02:54. > :02:58.the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much
:02:59. > :03:00.from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure
:03:01. > :03:06.from the argument, the thing we did televised debate influences the
:03:07. > :03:12.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:13. > :03:17.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:18. > :03:22.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:23. > :03:25.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:26. > :03:29.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:30. > :03:33.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:34. > :03:38.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:39. > :03:41.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:42. > :03:45.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:46. > :03:48.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:49. > :03:54.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:55. > :04:00.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:04:01. > :04:06.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:07. > :04:09.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:10. > :04:15.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:16. > :04:20.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:21. > :04:25.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:26. > :04:31.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:32. > :04:36.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:37. > :04:41.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:42. > :04:47.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:48. > :04:52.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I
:04:53. > :04:55.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:56. > :05:00.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:05:01. > :05:04.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:05. > :05:07.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:08. > :05:13.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:14. > :05:20.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:21. > :05:25.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:26. > :05:28.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:29. > :05:34.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:35. > :05:39.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:40. > :05:44.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:45. > :05:50.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:51. > :05:55.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:56. > :06:00.sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on
:06:01. > :06:03.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:04. > :06:10.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:11. > :06:15.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:16. > :06:21.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:22. > :06:28.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:29. > :06:34.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:35. > :06:40.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:41. > :06:45.that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.
:06:46. > :06:49.It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to
:06:50. > :06:54.be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is
:06:55. > :06:58.fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to
:06:59. > :07:01.do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have
:07:02. > :07:07.to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to
:07:08. > :07:12.where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the
:07:13. > :07:17.Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to
:07:18. > :07:23.happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg
:07:24. > :07:26.leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this
:07:27. > :07:30.Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick
:07:31. > :07:33.Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems
:07:34. > :07:38.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:39. > :07:41.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:42. > :07:45.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:46. > :07:48.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:49. > :07:53.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:54. > :07:59.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:08:00. > :08:05.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:06. > :08:08.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:09. > :08:14.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:15. > :08:18.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:19. > :08:24.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:25. > :08:30.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:31. > :08:35.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:36. > :08:39.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:40. > :08:42.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who
:08:43. > :08:47.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:48. > :08:51.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:52. > :08:56.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:57. > :09:03.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:04. > :09:06.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:07. > :09:10.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:11. > :09:15.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:16. > :09:22.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:23. > :09:25.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:26. > :09:29.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:30. > :09:34.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:35. > :09:37.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:38. > :09:41.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:42. > :09:47.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:48. > :09:52.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:53. > :09:56.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:57. > :10:04.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:05. > :10:09.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:10. > :10:13.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:14. > :10:17.And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that
:10:18. > :10:19.if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,
:10:20. > :10:23.they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly
:10:24. > :10:26.with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is
:10:27. > :10:29.any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a
:10:30. > :10:36.high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,
:10:37. > :10:40.that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very
:10:41. > :10:44.bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can
:10:45. > :10:49.see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they
:10:50. > :10:57.are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on
:10:58. > :11:00.bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his
:11:01. > :11:04.accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot
:11:05. > :11:09.help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in
:11:10. > :11:13.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:14. > :11:17.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:18. > :11:22.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:23. > :11:25.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:26. > :11:28.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:29. > :11:32.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:33. > :11:35.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:36. > :11:39.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:40. > :11:42.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:43. > :11:46.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:47. > :11:50.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:51. > :11:56.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:57. > :12:01.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do
:12:02. > :12:07.not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not
:12:08. > :12:10.that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and
:12:11. > :12:16.Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member
:12:17. > :12:22.of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is
:12:23. > :12:26.that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write
:12:27. > :12:31.themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and
:12:32. > :12:33.unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:34. > :12:37.and tomorrow. Of course it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:38. > :12:41.Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.
:12:42. > :12:46.But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly
:12:47. > :12:53.changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation
:12:54. > :12:57.and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot
:12:58. > :13:01.going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the
:13:02. > :14:04.BBC In 2013, the public voted for
:14:05. > :14:07.a portrait of At times he's interesting,
:14:08. > :14:15.at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life
:14:16. > :14:23.and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous
:14:24. > :14:25.when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre
:14:26. > :14:29.of attention but for ever.