:00:34. > :00:40.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:41. > :00:43.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .
:00:44. > :00:46.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:47. > :00:51.Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.
:00:52. > :00:54.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:55. > :00:58.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:00:59. > :01:00.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:01. > :01:06.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:07. > :01:10.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:11. > :01:30.In hearing the east, new session for MPs.
:01:31. > :01:34.And with me throughout the show three top-flight political
:01:35. > :01:37.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:38. > :01:51.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:52. > :01:53.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:54. > :01:56.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:57. > :01:59.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:00. > :02:01.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:02. > :02:03.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:04. > :02:09.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:10. > :02:14.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:15. > :02:19.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:20. > :02:25.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:26. > :02:29.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:30. > :02:33.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:34. > :02:36.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:37. > :02:41.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:42. > :02:46.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:47. > :02:49.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:50. > :02:54.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:55. > :02:59.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:03:00. > :03:02.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:03. > :03:06.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:07. > :03:11.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:12. > :03:15.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:16. > :03:19.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:20. > :03:23.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:24. > :03:27.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:28. > :03:34.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:35. > :03:36.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:37. > :03:40.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:41. > :03:45.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:46. > :03:49.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:50. > :03:53.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:54. > :03:56.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:57. > :04:02.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:03. > :04:03.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:04. > :04:06.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:07. > :04:09.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:10. > :04:09.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:10. > :04:16.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:17. > :04:20.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:21. > :04:20.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:21. > :04:34.inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the
:04:35. > :04:40.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:41. > :04:42.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:43. > :04:50.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:51. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:55. > :04:54.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:55. > :05:02.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:03. > :05:02.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:03. > :05:05.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:06. > :05:11.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:12. > :05:15.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I
:05:16. > :05:19.wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes
:05:20. > :05:23.through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the
:05:24. > :05:27.opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then
:05:28. > :05:30.holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this
:05:31. > :05:36.inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be
:05:37. > :05:41.careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.
:05:42. > :05:43.On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,
:05:44. > :05:45.firemen and council workers - will go on strike.
:05:46. > :05:48.Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking
:05:49. > :05:50.on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.
:05:51. > :05:52.As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end
:05:53. > :05:59.Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy
:06:00. > :06:02.and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.
:06:03. > :06:04.So why is there still talk of austerity
:06:05. > :06:09.The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government
:06:10. > :06:16.And accumulated deficits - the national debt -
:06:17. > :06:25.The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.
:06:26. > :06:29.In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned
:06:30. > :06:32.austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance
:06:33. > :06:38.Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.
:06:39. > :06:41.Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5
:06:42. > :06:49.Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -
:06:50. > :06:52.meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed
:06:53. > :07:00.Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -
:07:01. > :07:03.the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative
:07:04. > :07:23.We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition
:07:24. > :07:28.Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I
:07:29. > :07:33.don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at
:07:34. > :07:37.all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural
:07:38. > :07:42.deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and
:07:43. > :07:46.the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the
:07:47. > :07:53.lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze
:07:54. > :07:58.and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had
:07:59. > :08:03.that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan
:08:04. > :08:07.on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.
:08:08. > :08:11.People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in
:08:12. > :08:15.the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and
:08:16. > :08:19.pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is
:08:20. > :08:22.yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this
:08:23. > :08:25.is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike
:08:26. > :08:28.isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does
:08:29. > :08:32.seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They
:08:33. > :08:36.are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including
:08:37. > :08:40.those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really
:08:41. > :08:45.sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax
:08:46. > :08:51.cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big
:08:52. > :08:57.corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local
:08:58. > :08:59.government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women
:09:00. > :09:03.who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We
:09:04. > :09:07.have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public
:09:08. > :09:11.sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:12. > :09:15.You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,
:09:16. > :09:23.many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases
:09:24. > :09:28.since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food
:09:29. > :09:35.costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people
:09:36. > :09:40.from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average
:09:41. > :09:43.increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the
:09:44. > :09:48.top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we
:09:49. > :09:52.could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax
:09:53. > :09:56.and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive
:09:57. > :10:00.impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20
:10:01. > :10:04.pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have
:10:05. > :10:09.got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and
:10:10. > :10:15.we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010
:10:16. > :10:19.partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really
:10:20. > :10:24.important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have
:10:25. > :10:29.stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not
:10:30. > :10:33.spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase
:10:34. > :10:36.itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and
:10:37. > :10:43.guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.
:10:44. > :10:51.?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?
:10:52. > :10:58.I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being
:10:59. > :11:01.able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints
:11:02. > :11:04.of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The
:11:05. > :11:09.evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the
:11:10. > :11:17.Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even
:11:18. > :11:22.after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they
:11:23. > :11:31.are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?
:11:32. > :11:35.That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that
:11:36. > :11:39.report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are
:11:40. > :11:48.saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the
:11:49. > :11:54.public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are
:11:55. > :11:57.comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the
:11:58. > :12:03.workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better
:12:04. > :12:08.off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate
:12:09. > :12:16.better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry
:12:17. > :12:21.private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political
:12:22. > :12:24.strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The
:12:25. > :12:29.strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is
:12:30. > :12:32.what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government
:12:33. > :12:36.workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers
:12:37. > :12:40.are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of
:12:41. > :12:44.touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards
:12:45. > :12:49.depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real
:12:50. > :12:55.increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we
:12:56. > :13:00.certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?
:13:01. > :13:05.2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .
:13:06. > :13:14.So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?
:13:15. > :13:18.Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:13:19. > :13:22.the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their
:13:23. > :13:25.credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look
:13:26. > :13:29.forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these
:13:30. > :13:32.strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking
:13:33. > :13:37.union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they
:13:38. > :13:46.think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point
:13:47. > :13:51.about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public
:13:52. > :13:58.service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds
:13:59. > :14:09.wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite
:14:10. > :14:16.and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One
:14:17. > :14:19.final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on
:14:20. > :14:24.this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail
:14:25. > :14:29.on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the
:14:30. > :14:34.unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know
:14:35. > :14:38.the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this
:14:39. > :14:42.make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government
:14:43. > :14:44.on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of
:14:45. > :14:48.time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be
:14:49. > :14:51.an independent country?" That's the question the people of
:14:52. > :14:53.Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed
:14:54. > :14:57.the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before
:14:58. > :14:59.the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win
:15:00. > :15:01.and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading
:15:02. > :15:24.the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of
:15:25. > :15:30.independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what
:15:31. > :15:35.would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will
:15:36. > :15:39.get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple
:15:40. > :15:44.of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a
:15:45. > :15:50.number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a
:15:51. > :15:56.half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be
:15:57. > :16:00.encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a
:16:01. > :16:06.long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that
:16:07. > :16:12.is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a
:16:13. > :16:17.vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of
:16:18. > :16:20.uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising
:16:21. > :16:27.devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there
:16:28. > :16:33.is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more
:16:34. > :16:39.or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have
:16:40. > :16:44.powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are
:16:45. > :16:52.planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying
:16:53. > :16:55.different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have
:16:56. > :17:00.slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an
:17:01. > :17:08.agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute
:17:09. > :17:12.book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,
:17:13. > :17:17.people unified around a single proposition so there is history here
:17:18. > :17:20.and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in
:17:21. > :17:27.the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland
:17:28. > :17:31.vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I
:17:32. > :17:36.would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have
:17:37. > :17:40.something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in
:17:41. > :17:44.the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not
:17:45. > :17:50.certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,
:17:51. > :17:55.and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the
:17:56. > :18:02.past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt
:18:03. > :18:06.over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that
:18:07. > :18:09.walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists
:18:10. > :18:15.because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete
:18:16. > :18:20.break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that
:18:21. > :18:26.wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any
:18:27. > :18:32.plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,
:18:33. > :18:36.what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future
:18:37. > :18:42.of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.
:18:43. > :18:45.When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with
:18:46. > :18:49.representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that
:18:50. > :18:56.affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want
:18:57. > :19:00.to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local
:19:01. > :19:05.authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the
:19:06. > :19:10.uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would
:19:11. > :19:19.throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic
:19:20. > :19:38.arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is
:19:39. > :19:41.what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued
:19:42. > :19:48.membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an
:19:49. > :19:53.in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued
:19:54. > :19:57.Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and
:19:58. > :20:01.conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into
:20:02. > :20:08.something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we
:20:09. > :20:12.have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate
:20:13. > :20:19.which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have
:20:20. > :20:24.to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union
:20:25. > :20:29.does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half
:20:30. > :20:33.years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the
:20:34. > :20:40.disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with
:20:41. > :20:46.losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about
:20:47. > :20:50.is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,
:20:51. > :21:00.and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to
:21:01. > :21:05.stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the
:21:06. > :21:11.argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that
:21:12. > :21:17.over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that
:21:18. > :21:20.is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our
:21:21. > :21:25.arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be
:21:26. > :21:32.made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists
:21:33. > :21:40.win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no
:21:41. > :21:47.vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a
:21:48. > :21:51.world of difference between devolution and further devolution
:21:52. > :21:57.where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference
:21:58. > :22:01.between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign
:22:02. > :22:06.country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those
:22:07. > :22:15.opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with
:22:16. > :22:20.pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with
:22:21. > :22:26.passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon
:22:27. > :22:30.Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to
:22:31. > :22:35.take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign
:22:36. > :22:41.over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for
:22:42. > :22:47.remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had
:22:48. > :22:51.warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland
:22:52. > :22:57.we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from
:22:58. > :23:02.that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from
:23:03. > :23:06.saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are
:23:07. > :23:10.collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand
:23:11. > :23:16.up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is
:23:17. > :23:22.perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what
:23:23. > :23:38.you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know
:23:39. > :23:47.about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the
:23:48. > :23:52.leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was
:23:53. > :23:58.being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to
:23:59. > :24:04.blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South
:24:05. > :24:13.of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.
:24:14. > :24:17.I think it is important in this debate that people from outside
:24:18. > :24:22.politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on
:24:23. > :24:27.because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody
:24:28. > :24:32.should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will
:24:33. > :24:37.happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are
:24:38. > :24:45.making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.
:24:46. > :24:53.I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon
:24:54. > :24:57.next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will
:24:58. > :25:02.be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European
:25:03. > :25:08.elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a
:25:09. > :25:17.moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been
:25:18. > :25:32.asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister
:25:33. > :25:36.on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the
:25:37. > :25:40.Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire
:25:41. > :25:45.results in the local and European elections so what can the party do
:25:46. > :25:50.to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line
:25:51. > :25:56.one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local
:25:57. > :26:00.support? It is a massive problem because those are the building
:26:01. > :26:06.blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work
:26:07. > :26:11.done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock
:26:12. > :26:17.on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has
:26:18. > :26:21.lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name
:26:22. > :26:30.Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming
:26:31. > :26:36.Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge
:26:37. > :26:41.and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity
:26:42. > :26:46.at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a
:26:47. > :26:51.difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position
:26:52. > :26:57.itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party
:26:58. > :27:06.got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a
:27:07. > :27:09.party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a
:27:10. > :27:14.of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the
:27:15. > :27:19.next election because if we don t people will vote for the Tories
:27:20. > :27:25.Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I
:27:26. > :27:31.have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good
:27:32. > :27:36.stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may
:27:37. > :27:40.think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing
:27:41. > :28:09.on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.
:28:10. > :28:13.Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the
:28:14. > :28:16.doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.
:28:17. > :28:21.Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There
:28:22. > :28:26.is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people
:28:27. > :28:29.who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a
:28:30. > :28:34.timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things We
:28:35. > :28:39.are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What
:28:40. > :28:44.are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious
:28:45. > :28:49.long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of
:28:50. > :28:53.the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back
:28:54. > :28:56.decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented
:28:57. > :28:59.in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue
:29:00. > :29:03.ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going
:29:04. > :29:08.to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how
:29:09. > :29:13.well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we
:29:14. > :29:15.are going to finish with an old classic now.
:29:16. > :29:18.# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the
:29:19. > :29:22.programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you
:29:23. > :29:24.will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and
:29:25. > :29:27.historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it
:29:28. > :29:31.mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry
:29:32. > :29:40.into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything
:29:41. > :29:56.it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.
:29:57. > :30:01.delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an
:30:02. > :30:05.inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,
:30:06. > :30:08.serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home
:30:09. > :30:12.Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in
:30:13. > :30:17.the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are
:30:18. > :30:22.looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken
:30:23. > :30:28.place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,
:30:29. > :30:32.truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,
:30:33. > :30:36.is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but
:30:37. > :30:41.there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195
:30:42. > :30:44.involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree
:30:45. > :30:50.that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home
:30:51. > :30:53.Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been
:30:54. > :30:59.mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate
:31:00. > :31:03.themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that and
:31:04. > :31:06.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:07. > :31:12.thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I
:31:13. > :31:15.can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse
:31:16. > :31:19.still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse
:31:20. > :31:23.the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at
:31:24. > :31:29.the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only
:31:30. > :31:31.way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting
:31:32. > :31:37.authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about
:31:38. > :31:41.what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking
:31:42. > :31:44.place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second
:31:45. > :31:48.guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.
:31:49. > :31:50.All I would say is that people who have information, who want to
:31:51. > :31:54.provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in
:31:55. > :31:59.touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry
:32:00. > :32:03.into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself
:32:04. > :32:07.and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is
:32:08. > :32:13.called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not
:32:14. > :32:18.called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two
:32:19. > :32:21.parties who retain different identities, different values, have
:32:22. > :32:25.different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament
:32:26. > :32:29.have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency
:32:30. > :32:33.back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a
:32:34. > :32:36.precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political
:32:37. > :32:39.challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal
:32:40. > :32:41.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:42. > :32:45.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:46. > :32:48.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:49. > :32:56.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:57. > :32:59.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:00. > :33:05.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:06. > :33:12.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:13. > :33:17.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:18. > :33:22.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:23. > :33:25.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:26. > :33:28.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:29. > :33:31.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:32. > :33:35.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:36. > :33:40.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:41. > :33:47.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:48. > :33:52.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:53. > :34:02.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:03. > :34:07.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:08. > :34:11.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:12. > :34:15.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:16. > :34:21.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:22. > :34:26.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:27. > :34:28.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It
:34:29. > :34:32.is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left
:34:33. > :34:36.and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in
:34:37. > :34:41.Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -
:34:42. > :34:46.having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in
:34:47. > :34:52.our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more
:34:53. > :34:59.support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib
:35:00. > :35:04.Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a
:35:05. > :35:10.National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a
:35:11. > :35:14.National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we
:35:15. > :35:18.have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much
:35:19. > :35:21.time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing
:35:22. > :35:27.that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in
:35:28. > :35:30.challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we
:35:31. > :35:33.have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more
:35:34. > :35:37.Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering
:35:38. > :35:42.before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal
:35:43. > :35:45.reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been
:35:46. > :35:50.setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure
:35:51. > :35:54.teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in
:35:55. > :36:00.school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company
:36:01. > :36:03.from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with
:36:04. > :36:08.education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values
:36:09. > :36:14.that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out
:36:15. > :36:22.and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that
:36:23. > :36:26.you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:27. > :36:29.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:30. > :36:34.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:35. > :36:38.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:39. > :36:42.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:43. > :36:45.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:46. > :36:49.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:50. > :36:52.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:53. > :36:57.good reason for that. They didn t win the election. The left say that
:36:58. > :37:01.somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in day
:37:02. > :37:06.out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to
:37:07. > :37:14.buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from
:37:15. > :37:20.left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to
:37:21. > :37:25.fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.
:37:26. > :37:30.Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it
:37:31. > :37:33.won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the
:37:34. > :37:37.referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.
:37:38. > :37:40.With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u
:37:41. > :37:45.powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have
:37:46. > :37:51.said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change
:37:52. > :37:54.Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep
:37:55. > :38:02.Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of
:38:03. > :38:07.what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to
:38:08. > :38:10.serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has
:38:11. > :38:14.done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years
:38:15. > :38:17.to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not
:38:18. > :38:23.just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some
:38:24. > :38:28.heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger
:38:29. > :38:33.of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in
:38:34. > :38:43.Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of
:38:44. > :38:48.that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near
:38:49. > :38:53.Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them
:38:54. > :38:57.later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm
:38:58. > :39:01.sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.
:39:02. > :39:04.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:05. > :39:08.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:09. > :39:09.for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:39:10. > :39:25.the Week Politics east, I am Etholle George.
:39:26. > :39:29.Later, work may resume for LEPs but it is not business as usual. With
:39:30. > :39:32.more UKIP members than ever before there are questions over whdther the
:39:33. > :39:35.work will get done. What is the point of being `n
:39:36. > :39:39.elected member of the Europdan Parliament unless you get involved
:39:40. > :39:42.in the Parliament itself, shape the legislation?
:39:43. > :39:44.And how is this MP's local referendum on our future in the EU
:39:45. > :39:53.going? Well, who better to ask than Peter
:39:54. > :40:00.bone, the Conservative MP for Wellingborough, handily in the
:40:01. > :40:08.studio with us. Along with Bob blizzard, Labour's Parliamentary
:40:09. > :40:13.candidate for Waveney. Let's start with income tax, because
:40:14. > :40:18.it was first mooted by an MP last year when he wrote, one ide` worth
:40:19. > :40:19.considering is merging National Insurance and income taxed hnto just
:40:20. > :40:34.one tax. Well, Suffolk MP Ben Gummer has also
:40:35. > :40:40.been campaigning and the idda seems to have caught the Chancellor's I is
:40:41. > :40:43.you can see from the times. He is looking at the idea for the
:40:44. > :40:47.general election. Bob blizzard, if you roll the two
:40:48. > :40:57.together it is much more tr`nsparent for the public, is it not?
:40:58. > :41:01.think they are paying into ` pot for misnomer and some people
:41:02. > :41:02.think they are paying into ` pot for their pension. It is more or less a
:41:03. > :41:06.tax, but one of the problems with merging it with income tax hs you
:41:07. > :41:09.would have to make up the ploy's contribution to National Insurance
:41:10. > :41:14.and you would end up with a hefty easy rate of income tax that would
:41:15. > :41:22.not be very popular. What about the principle, Peter Bone, the principle
:41:23. > :41:29.established in 1911, Nation`l Insurance to pay for health. What
:41:30. > :41:35.about that principle of loshng that special element that people are
:41:36. > :41:40.quite aware of? People think this is going into a pot to pay for your
:41:41. > :41:47.retirement or whatever and ht isn't. It is effectively just another
:41:48. > :41:53.income tax. There are a lot of problems in combining the two. It
:41:54. > :41:55.will be less transparent to people who level of tax they are p`ying,
:41:56. > :42:00.also. What about the point of havhng to
:42:01. > :42:02.raise the rate, because if xou combine two taxes the overall rate
:42:03. > :42:09.will go up. And the amount that lawyers are to
:42:10. > :42:14.Schmeichel `` that employers are paying.
:42:15. > :42:18.It is direct taxes, that is one reason for doing it, for
:42:19. > :42:23.transparency's sake. Bob's point is different because part of N`tional
:42:24. > :42:27.Insurance is paid by the employer, and I assume they would continue to
:42:28. > :42:31.pay that tax in one form or another. I think it is a good idea, the
:42:32. > :42:36.technical problems can be overcome and I wish them well with it.
:42:37. > :42:43.One Bill the government would like to bring it down is its contribution
:42:44. > :42:48.to Europe. The climate may have changed, with a
:42:49. > :42:52.lot more UKIP MEPs, including three from the east, but the other parties
:42:53. > :42:58.say that is going to mean more work for everyone else.
:42:59. > :43:04.Andrew Sinclair has been to Strasberg.
:43:05. > :43:09.For those who believe in thd European Parliament, this h`s been
:43:10. > :43:11.an important week. The start of a new five`year session,
:43:12. > :43:15.representatives from 28 nathons working together for the good of
:43:16. > :43:19.Europe. The reality, though, is that this
:43:20. > :43:24.Parliament is more Eurosceptic than ever before, which is why UKIP has
:43:25. > :43:26.been getting so much attenthon this week.
:43:27. > :43:30.Their MPs protested when thd European anthem was played hn the
:43:31. > :43:40.chamber. The Party is saying its main role you will be to expose what
:43:41. > :43:44.is wrong with the EU, not ldgislate. In some ways, MEPs are a delocratic
:43:45. > :43:47.pretence, when the decisions are made behind closed doors by the
:43:48. > :43:51.commission and frankly therd is very little democracy.
:43:52. > :43:54.During the lifetime of this new Parliament there will be a big
:43:55. > :43:59.debate about Britain's role in Europe and may even be a referendum
:44:00. > :44:02.on leaving. Our relationship will probably change in the next five
:44:03. > :44:07.years. But in the meantime the EU needs to be government as Mhchael
:44:08. > :44:10.needs to be governed, and whether we like it or not a lot of the
:44:11. > :44:16.legislation past year had a direct effect on our lives in Brit`in. The
:44:17. > :44:20.question is, what role will our local representatives be pl`ying in
:44:21. > :44:24.this new European Parliament? There is now just one British
:44:25. > :44:29.Liberal Democrat here. She represents the south`east, hncluding
:44:30. > :44:32.Milton Keynes. What is it like being the l`st Lib
:44:33. > :44:37.Dem standing? Well, it is very sad for me, I have
:44:38. > :44:41.lost some very good, hard`working colleagues, who I have lent one and
:44:42. > :44:49.we all lent on each other, dxperts in different fields. It is ` sad
:44:50. > :44:53.day, two, for the country. Xou keep's voices not been heard around
:44:54. > :44:55.the table when we are making decisions.
:44:56. > :44:59.There is a worry among many of her colleagues that UKIP will bd quick
:45:00. > :45:02.to point out what is wrong with Parliament but will not be
:45:03. > :45:06.interested in the nitty`gritty. The detail of legislation is very
:45:07. > :45:11.important and we have to make sure that we are paying attention the
:45:12. > :45:16.committees, working hard and doing our bit and delivering results.
:45:17. > :45:23.In the last five years, I looked at over 150 different pieces of EU
:45:24. > :45:28.law, from car exhaust is to vacuum cleaners to ranking to medical
:45:29. > :45:31.research, and I wrote amendlents on behalf of different companids,
:45:32. > :45:35.concerns and groups, table them and argued them and got them into law.
:45:36. > :45:38.And if you hadn't done that businesses in our region wotld have
:45:39. > :45:42.been affected? Yes, because, let's face it, the
:45:43. > :45:46.French and Germans are going to do it, you are in a market, yot have to
:45:47. > :45:51.defend your corner if you w`nt to be able to have those opportunhties.
:45:52. > :45:54.One of our leading UKIP members in the region says he is the f`rming
:45:55. > :45:58.expat. He did not table any amendmdnts on
:45:59. > :46:02.farming law, so I had to do it. We are going to have a weaker voice
:46:03. > :46:07.unless everyone is prepared to roll up their sleeves and help.
:46:08. > :46:11.It is not just new laws. In the next few years there will be important
:46:12. > :46:13.decisions made about funding, particularly for science and
:46:14. > :46:18.transport schemes where our region has done well in the past.
:46:19. > :46:20.What is the point of being `n elected member of the Europdan
:46:21. > :46:23.Parliament unless you get involved, shape the legislation that comes
:46:24. > :46:32.out, stop the bad things th`t we don't want to happen but also help
:46:33. > :46:35.get that ?250 million into our businesses and universities and
:46:36. > :46:39.voluntary organisations? If UKIP do not turn up, they will not get any
:46:40. > :46:43.of the benefits or stop any of the things they say they are ag`inst.
:46:44. > :46:48.More than half a million people voted for UKIP in our region, more
:46:49. > :46:52.than for any other Party. It believes it has a mandate to be you
:46:53. > :46:57.and draw attention to what hs wrong with Europe. But many believe,
:46:58. > :47:00.whatever your views, if you're a member of the European Parlhament
:47:01. > :47:05.you should surely be prepardd to work that Parliament.
:47:06. > :47:09.I'm going to ask some of those questions raised in the fill to
:47:10. > :47:14.Patrick Flynn, who is UKIP LEP for the East.
:47:15. > :47:18.As a Party, you are not doing your bit, are you?
:47:19. > :47:22.Actually, I have only been `n MEP for four days, so it is early to be
:47:23. > :47:28.condemning me on my record. I did not see you, I said as a
:47:29. > :47:36.Party. I completely disagred. If we take other parties for the
:47:37. > :47:40.region, Vicky Ford, doing work, what she means is nodding through the EU
:47:41. > :47:45.taking over the competency on financial services and imperilling
:47:46. > :47:50.Britain's most successful industry. Geoffrey Van Auden's work w`s
:47:51. > :47:52.ushering in open door immigration from Bulgaria. I do not call that
:47:53. > :47:56.work. We do not have her with us, but he
:47:57. > :48:00.has tabled... She has slapped us off without us
:48:01. > :48:04.being here to defend ourselves. Vicky Ford has put through 053
:48:05. > :48:08.amendments. Stewart Agnew, though he has a
:48:09. > :48:11.better voting record, had only put forward one amendment.
:48:12. > :48:17.Well, Stewart has used his dxpertise to intervene and help shape the
:48:18. > :48:19.debate on the agriculture committees.
:48:20. > :48:22.What is the point in intervdning if you're not good to follow that
:48:23. > :48:27.through and make amendments? Vicky Ford does not know whdther she
:48:28. > :48:30.wants to be in or out of thd EU and I would suggest to Vicky Ford and
:48:31. > :48:36.Geoffrey Van Auden, they have just gone through an election and got
:48:37. > :48:41.their backsides spanked by TKIP With all respect to them, pdrhaps if
:48:42. > :48:48.the Conservative Party had lore Eurosceptic candidates like Peter
:48:49. > :48:55.Bone here and a few `` a conscious Europhiles like Vicky Ford, they
:48:56. > :48:59.might not have done so badlx. Why not get involved?
:49:00. > :49:02.I was involved in the chambdr of week, I hardly ever saw Richard
:49:03. > :49:06.Howard there. Vicky Ford was not even present when her own group
:49:07. > :49:10.leader was making a speech, which I thought rather rude.
:49:11. > :49:15.What are your plans for, funding, for example?
:49:16. > :49:20.Again, this is Richard Howard's buzzword. European funding, he goes
:49:21. > :49:23.on and on about it without telling the people they are getting around
:49:24. > :49:28.half of their own money back and he seems proud of this. We will fight
:49:29. > :49:32.to make the European Union less intolerable and less bad for Britain
:49:33. > :49:37.while we are stuck in it, btt our mandate is to go over there and
:49:38. > :49:41.fight to get Britain out. Will you fight for legislathon that
:49:42. > :49:46.is detrimental for UKIP `` TK plc, and in particularly the East, if you
:49:47. > :49:49.have to question might we whll fight to oppose legislation that will make
:49:50. > :49:53.things worse within the European Union.
:49:54. > :49:56.If there are amendments that make a bit of legislation or less bad, then
:49:57. > :50:00.we will consider supporting those amendments, and that will bd a new
:50:01. > :50:04.approach for UKIP. You are saying that is a new policy?
:50:05. > :50:08.On occasion you will make alendments if need be?
:50:09. > :50:14.On occasion, we will. Rather than opposing everything, we will oppose
:50:15. > :50:17.the prime legislation... Now you are getting involved in
:50:18. > :50:23.Europe, now you are actuallx getting involved in what is going on.
:50:24. > :50:25.It is a second line of defence for Britain against primary leghslation
:50:26. > :50:30.and if we think something is going to go through and an amendmdnt will
:50:31. > :50:41.make something less bad, we will consider that on its merits, that is
:50:42. > :50:44.a development of the UKIP position. UKIP was democratically elected
:50:45. > :50:47.they have their mandate, wh`t is not to like?
:50:48. > :50:50.But I think the real point here is that Nigel Farage has made his name
:50:51. > :50:56.by presenting himself as solething different, not a politician like the
:50:57. > :50:59.rest. What we can see is th`t he is a politician. He has been in the
:51:00. > :51:04.European Parliament for sevdral years now taking over 100,000 a year
:51:05. > :51:08.plus staff from an organisation he does not believe in, then not
:51:09. > :51:11.putting in the work. That is a bad advert for politics.
:51:12. > :51:18.I don't think anyone can accuse Nigel Farage of not putting in the
:51:19. > :51:22.work. For constituents? His consthtuents
:51:23. > :51:24.have giving him a thumping big mandate just in May, so that they
:51:25. > :51:28.are obviously quite pleased with him.
:51:29. > :51:32.The question is, is he workhng for the constituents or just advancing
:51:33. > :51:37.UKIP? Well, that is for the consthtuents
:51:38. > :51:42.to judge, and they have. Peter Bone, people sent an `nti`EU
:51:43. > :51:44.message but did not vote for the Conservatives, why?
:51:45. > :51:50.You're absolutely right. Thd combined vote of UKIP massively sent
:51:51. > :51:53.a message saying the Europe`n Union needs to be reformed and sole of us
:51:54. > :51:58.believe we should come out. The thing is, there is no difference
:51:59. > :52:03.between what Patrick thinks and what I think.
:52:04. > :52:07.Perhaps you are in the wrong Party? Now you have raised an issud, should
:52:08. > :52:11.the parties be working together I am raising an issue about you
:52:12. > :52:13.specifically being in the wrong Party.
:52:14. > :52:20.I could argue Patrick could be in my Party for his views. With all due
:52:21. > :52:24.respect, Bob has this view of a European superstate and there should
:52:25. > :52:26.not be a referendum, we shotld throw away British money and we should
:52:27. > :52:30.roll over every time, and that is fine, that is a point of vidw, but
:52:31. > :52:35.we take a different point of view. At the moment, if we carry on like
:52:36. > :52:38.this, UKIP will get a big vote, the Conservatives will get a big vote,
:52:39. > :52:41.but unfortunately we will ldt Labour into the middle and that is a
:52:42. > :52:44.danger. What about the reaction at the
:52:45. > :52:50.European elections, because Labour did not come off very well?
:52:51. > :52:55.We lost the European elections in 1999 and 2004 but shortly after we
:52:56. > :52:59.bounced back and add victorx in the elections.
:53:00. > :53:02.But not for your policies in Europe, though, that might hndicate
:53:03. > :53:06.that. I think the European elections are a
:53:07. > :53:09.bit of a law unto themselves. You get a low turnout and high
:53:10. > :53:13.proportion of the people who turn out other bee in their bonndt about
:53:14. > :53:17.Europe, so we get the results that we have. History shows European
:53:18. > :53:21.results are rather different from Westminster results.
:53:22. > :53:24.Patrick, what is your posithon because you want to fight a
:53:25. > :53:28.Westminster seat but you ard taking and any people as Michael s`lary
:53:29. > :53:31.whilst thinking about doing that. I have been elected as an MDP, I
:53:32. > :53:37.have every right to be paid at the same rate as the other MEPs.
:53:38. > :53:41.And fight a seat at the samd time? I am considering my options, I am
:53:42. > :53:46.not down for a seat at all `t the moment. I am still reforming the
:53:47. > :53:50.duties... Are you saying you will not fight a
:53:51. > :53:55.Westminster seat? I have not decided yet. You will
:53:56. > :53:57.continue to take the MEP's salary, funding you through that potential
:53:58. > :54:01.fight? I do not really follow the logic of
:54:02. > :54:04.the question. I have been elected as an MEP and I am serving on the
:54:05. > :54:09.mandate on which I was elected. I may or may not fight a seat at the
:54:10. > :54:13.general election next year. You saying candidates who may fhght the
:54:14. > :54:17.general election next year should not be paid for their day jobs?
:54:18. > :54:20.It depends how much of your time you're going to be contributing to
:54:21. > :54:25.your work as an MEP and how much time you will fight the seat?
:54:26. > :54:31.What do you mean spend fighting the seat? I have not put my namd down
:54:32. > :54:34.for any seat, I am an electdd MEP, I was in Strasbourg this week,
:54:35. > :54:39.Brussels last week and next week, I am doing my job and I have not put
:54:40. > :54:43.my name down for a Parliament a receipt or even applied for one yet.
:54:44. > :54:48.The general election is next May, so are you saying I should work for
:54:49. > :54:53.nothing while I think about being a candidate from next March or April?
:54:54. > :54:57.We'll see what happens next, thank you very much for joining us.
:54:58. > :55:00.As promised, we will be spe`king to Peter Bone about his own ballot on
:55:01. > :55:05.the EU. The EU. He and fellow
:55:06. > :55:11.Northamptonshire MP Philip @ldbourne are holding their own referdndum on
:55:12. > :55:13.staying in the EU. It will not have any legal force but could ptt
:55:14. > :55:18.pressure on the government to arrange an national vote.
:55:19. > :55:22.It followed a similar poll by the Kent MP Mark Reckless.
:55:23. > :55:24.Earlier we spoke to the polhtical editor for the size about that
:55:25. > :55:34.ballot. Well, the MP, Mark Reckless decided
:55:35. > :55:38.to hold his own referendum, and the question was do you want to remain
:55:39. > :55:43.part of the European Union or come out?
:55:44. > :55:48.When the results come in `` came in people voted overwhelmingly, almost
:55:49. > :55:53.80% against 20%, to come out of the EU.
:55:54. > :55:57.It was a small sample size, he had 4000 responses out of an eldctorate
:55:58. > :56:00.of 75,000. It is important to note that the only people who wotld
:56:01. > :56:04.respond to a referendum likd this, if you like, are people who are very
:56:05. > :56:10.interested in this issue, bdcause it was hypothetical. They had no say
:56:11. > :56:16.about whether we came out or stayed in. But Mark Reckless said ht was an
:56:17. > :56:21.overwhelming result, and thhs does appear to be the case, Tory
:56:22. > :56:26.backbench MPs like Peter Bone are now holding their own indivhdual
:56:27. > :56:31.referendums in their constituencies. The reason behind this is to try and
:56:32. > :56:35.force David Cameron's and to try and make him bring forward the promised
:56:36. > :56:39.referendum 2017. Peter Bone, let us talk abott this
:56:40. > :56:42.referendum, because my understanding was you were hoping to rele`se the
:56:43. > :56:46.results by now. Why have thdy not come out?
:56:47. > :56:51.One thing on that report, the referendum is a joint referdndum
:56:52. > :56:56.across Kettering, Wellingborough and the Corby constituency. The idea
:56:57. > :57:01.came from a Conservative Parliamentary candidate who was in
:57:02. > :57:05.the film but was not mentioned by the BBC. This was a joint three
:57:06. > :57:09.constituency poll. They are still being delivered, half of thd ballot
:57:10. > :57:15.papers roughly have gone out and I guess we will get the rest out by
:57:16. > :57:20.the end of this month. I thhnk we explained this before, therd is no
:57:21. > :57:23.end date. We will. Counting when people stop sending the ballot
:57:24. > :57:26.papers back to us. When you have got the right result
:57:27. > :57:31.perhaps? If that was the case we would tell
:57:32. > :57:34.you the result now and stop. It is clearly... The point hs we
:57:35. > :57:39.want as many people as posshble to vote. If they do not have a ballot
:57:40. > :57:43.paper they can go to the website and fought by electoral...
:57:44. > :57:53.Are people responding well? We heard Mark Reckless's turnout was not very
:57:54. > :57:58.good. I was surprised by that, in one area
:57:59. > :58:02.where we completed delivery in my constituency had a much higher
:58:03. > :58:07.turnout than that. We will see at the end of the day the turnout and
:58:08. > :58:12.what the vote is. What do you make of this tactic
:58:13. > :58:16.I think we should have a referendum on the European Union. Therd is a
:58:17. > :58:20.national mood to have one although that mood is not as strong `s is
:58:21. > :58:24.often claimed, judging by that result in Kent. Importantly, I think
:58:25. > :58:28.a referendum would land still boil and allow the items that ard not put
:58:29. > :58:34.at the moment, the arguments for staying in, to be put. `` it would
:58:35. > :58:38.lance the boil. Principally the argument for the
:58:39. > :58:42.single economy, and the opinion polls would tilt towards st`ying in
:58:43. > :58:47.and I think people would vote for staying in like they did in 197 .
:58:48. > :58:48.That is my view and the view of quite a lot of people in thd Labour
:58:49. > :58:53.Party. How is this being funded? The
:58:54. > :58:57.posting of envelopes etc. Bob is taking a principle stands as
:58:58. > :58:59.ever, and I would like his Party leader to take on board what he
:59:00. > :59:05.said. Funding of this has been pahd for by
:59:06. > :59:11.some private donations, part of it is being paid for delivery, part of
:59:12. > :59:16.it by private donations. It seems to be back to school in our
:59:17. > :59:24.prodigal roundup of the week. `` political roundup.
:59:25. > :59:30.Education Minister and Norfolk MP Liz truss anions school's m`ths hubs
:59:31. > :59:35.this week. Their main point is about the
:59:36. > :59:37.attitude that everything can do well at maths.
:59:38. > :59:39.criticised in the House for getting criticised in the House for getting
:59:40. > :59:43.his maths wrong over council expenses.
:59:44. > :59:46.Lord Hanningfield brought great shame upon local government and he
:59:47. > :59:53.brought great shame to the House of lords. He should do what he can to
:59:54. > :59:55.repay the money. Northampton MP Michael Ellis needs
:59:56. > :00:00.to go back to school, according to the Speaker.
:00:01. > :00:06.Mr Ellis, calm yourself man Only this morning at each are sahd to me
:00:07. > :00:11.in Speaker's House, how can I tell a little boy in my class to bdhave
:00:12. > :00:14.when parliamentarians do not! Be a good boy!
:00:15. > :00:17.Stewart Jackson gave the Rhhne Minister ten out of ten for his
:00:18. > :00:23.stand. I always knew he had led in his
:00:24. > :00:27.pencil... It is good to see him sharpdning it
:00:28. > :00:36.on the inexorable drive to dver closer union, as personified by his
:00:37. > :00:39.stance on the European Union leader. Praise for the PM's stands, a stance
:00:40. > :00:44.that went down well with thd public for being prime ministerial.
:00:45. > :00:49.I think he made a fool of hhmself and there is nothing heroic about
:00:50. > :00:52.losing by 26 votes to two. H think he has done irreparable dam`ge to
:00:53. > :00:57.the country because he has destroyed relationships in the Europe`n Union
:00:58. > :00:59.and made it harder to get changes. But the public actually likdd his
:01:00. > :01:04.stance. Well, got some headlines, if you are
:01:05. > :01:08.in the headlines, people sed headlines, but they will be
:01:09. > :01:12.consequences for that. People talk about democracy, the
:01:13. > :01:18.leader is democratically eldcted, that is democracy at work, hsn't it?
:01:19. > :01:24.Actually, no, it was a council that decided on the president, and I am
:01:25. > :01:28.impressed the Prime Minister took a principled stance. Others write
:01:29. > :01:33.Labour would have rolled ovdr and accepted what the other European
:01:34. > :01:39.Union leaders wanted. This was the Prime Minister being much more like
:01:40. > :01:49.Margaret Thatcher, rather than Tony Blair. Yearsley had of the largest
:01:50. > :01:53.group, though, isn't he? What I am seeing is the largest head
:01:54. > :02:00.of nations coming together to choose who they want.
:02:01. > :02:03.I think that is the biggest lie out, that would not have bedn the
:02:04. > :02:07.case. We will have to leave it thdre,
:02:08. > :02:09.thank you. As always, you c`n keep in touch through our websitd, we are
:02:10. > :02:14.back at the same time next progress in London was being made
:02:15. > :02:16.before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to
:02:17. > :02:20.you. What will Thursday's mass
:02:21. > :02:22.public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker
:02:23. > :02:24.attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking
:02:25. > :02:46.about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt
:02:47. > :02:52.Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the
:02:53. > :02:56.TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be
:02:57. > :03:00.telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that
:03:01. > :03:07.and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any
:03:08. > :03:14.economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because
:03:15. > :03:18.the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector
:03:19. > :03:23.job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the
:03:24. > :03:27.economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so
:03:28. > :03:32.they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years
:03:33. > :03:37.ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is
:03:38. > :03:42.naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,
:03:43. > :03:47.they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come
:03:48. > :03:52.out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram
:03:53. > :03:55.Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of
:03:56. > :03:58.strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question
:03:59. > :04:02.that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.
:04:03. > :04:05.The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a -
:04:06. > :04:12.every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and
:04:13. > :04:16.local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of
:04:17. > :04:21.London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our
:04:22. > :04:27.democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was
:04:28. > :04:32.hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the
:04:33. > :04:35.question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till
:04:36. > :04:40.2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the
:04:41. > :04:47.public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that
:04:48. > :04:51.one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those
:04:52. > :04:54.strikes that took place in 2010 At that time, the TUC and the Labour
:04:55. > :05:00.Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,
:05:01. > :05:04.not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time
:05:05. > :05:11.round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about
:05:12. > :05:15.wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the
:05:16. > :05:23.recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky
:05:24. > :05:27.territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something
:05:28. > :05:34.out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase
:05:35. > :05:37.in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a
:05:38. > :05:40.problem? They do have a problem They have to say always that they
:05:41. > :05:45.would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are
:05:46. > :05:48.locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going
:05:49. > :05:57.to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some
:05:58. > :06:02.politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one Do
:06:03. > :06:05.we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan
:06:06. > :06:11.Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are
:06:12. > :06:14.some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse
:06:15. > :06:19.Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do
:06:20. > :06:24.on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile
:06:25. > :06:29.state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or
:06:30. > :06:34.in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was
:06:35. > :06:37.a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten
:06:38. > :06:41.months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember
:06:42. > :06:49.them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that
:06:50. > :07:01.last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were
:07:02. > :07:05.trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had
:07:06. > :07:12.something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There
:07:13. > :07:16.are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance
:07:17. > :07:19.of it! If the most recent polls are to be
:07:20. > :07:22.believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -
:07:23. > :07:25.clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the
:07:26. > :07:28.appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission
:07:29. > :07:31.president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP
:07:32. > :07:34.contingent to Strasbourg for the first session
:07:35. > :07:53.of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to
:07:54. > :07:58.say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50
:07:59. > :08:01.years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that
:08:02. > :08:07.want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our
:08:08. > :08:14.countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we
:08:15. > :08:21.will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!
:08:22. > :08:23.It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the
:08:24. > :08:26.Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.
:08:27. > :08:28.Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -
:08:29. > :08:30.Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.
:08:31. > :08:41.Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is
:08:42. > :08:47.probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know
:08:48. > :08:50.well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my
:08:51. > :08:55.qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are
:08:56. > :09:00.your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of
:09:01. > :09:06.UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative
:09:07. > :09:12.values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It
:09:13. > :09:17.would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block
:09:18. > :09:19.of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have
:09:20. > :09:23.that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the
:09:24. > :09:28.luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He
:09:29. > :09:32.would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to
:09:33. > :09:37.stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little
:09:38. > :09:40.sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people
:09:41. > :09:44.who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority
:09:45. > :09:48.Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are
:09:49. > :09:53.offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of
:09:54. > :09:57.those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will
:09:58. > :10:02.put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is
:10:03. > :10:12.between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle
:10:13. > :10:16.Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The danger to this country is another
:10:17. > :10:20.Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in
:10:21. > :10:24.2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most
:10:25. > :10:28.dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm
:10:29. > :10:39.happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a
:10:40. > :10:48.Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet
:10:49. > :10:54.again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got
:10:55. > :11:00.it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at
:11:01. > :11:04.diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and
:11:05. > :11:08.his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is
:11:09. > :11:12.possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment
:11:13. > :11:24.of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically
:11:25. > :11:29.and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We
:11:30. > :11:36.saw UKIP decline between the 20 4 European elections and the 2005
:11:37. > :11:39.General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.
:11:40. > :11:43.The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering
:11:44. > :11:48.12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his
:11:49. > :11:52.veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is
:11:53. > :11:57.embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.
:11:58. > :12:01.He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not
:12:02. > :12:11.conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the
:12:12. > :12:17.polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are
:12:18. > :12:22.supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different
:12:23. > :12:26.supposed to despise. The electricion different reason. It is this
:12:27. > :12:29.anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in
:12:30. > :12:32.the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can
:12:33. > :12:36.be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a
:12:37. > :12:40.special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...
:12:41. > :12:44.This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of
:12:45. > :12:48.the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was
:12:49. > :12:52.interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild
:12:53. > :12:58.Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the
:12:59. > :13:03.baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,
:13:04. > :13:08.the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader
:13:09. > :13:15.of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic
:13:16. > :13:19.speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are
:13:20. > :13:22.cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!
:13:23. > :13:26.The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day
:13:27. > :13:31.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last
:13:32. > :13:37.Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy
:13:38. > :13:44.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.