:00:08. > :00:12.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:13. > :00:14.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:15. > :00:53.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:54. > :00:58.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north
:00:59. > :01:06.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:07. > :01:11.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:12. > :01:16.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:17. > :01:22.Here in the east. people who want to be Labour
:01:23. > :01:25.Why Labour doesn't want rail services for passengers in this
:01:26. > :01:31.And we've run our affairs bdfore, why can't we do it again?
:01:32. > :01:45.powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step
:01:46. > :01:48.for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the
:01:49. > :01:53.business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,
:01:54. > :01:58.Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to
:01:59. > :02:04.other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,
:02:05. > :02:07.but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and
:02:08. > :02:10.enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when
:02:11. > :02:17.it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons
:02:18. > :02:21.of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,
:02:22. > :02:31.the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It
:02:32. > :02:34.has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that
:02:35. > :02:41.they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only
:02:42. > :02:45.votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core
:02:46. > :02:48.justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the
:02:49. > :02:57.House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -
:02:58. > :02:59.cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David
:03:00. > :03:03.Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris
:03:04. > :03:07.Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr
:03:08. > :03:10.Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood
:03:11. > :03:21.and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he
:03:22. > :03:28.They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the
:03:29. > :03:36.Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is
:03:37. > :03:40.a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the
:03:41. > :03:44.ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He
:03:45. > :03:48.knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a
:03:49. > :03:52.draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they
:03:53. > :03:54.had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve
:03:55. > :04:02.these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they
:04:03. > :04:08.don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about
:04:09. > :04:12.is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at
:04:13. > :04:17.the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an
:04:18. > :04:20.overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern
:04:21. > :04:24.Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is
:04:25. > :04:29.whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he
:04:30. > :04:34.would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get
:04:35. > :04:39.either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause
:04:40. > :04:45.Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband
:04:46. > :04:48.this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why
:04:49. > :04:53.shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this
:04:54. > :04:58.morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and
:04:59. > :05:02.English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is
:05:03. > :05:06.in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his
:05:07. > :05:11.announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in
:05:12. > :05:14.Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if
:05:15. > :05:18.Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is
:05:19. > :05:22.handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural
:05:23. > :05:27.Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory
:05:28. > :05:30.backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be
:05:31. > :05:33.in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet
:05:34. > :05:40.think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a
:05:41. > :05:43.partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on
:05:44. > :05:50.course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,
:05:51. > :05:53.and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the
:05:54. > :05:57.Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in
:05:58. > :06:02.sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this
:06:03. > :06:09.one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle
:06:10. > :06:12.to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband
:06:13. > :06:13.and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett
:06:14. > :06:15.Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,
:06:16. > :06:18.but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how
:06:19. > :06:20.the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,
:06:21. > :06:23.Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,
:06:24. > :06:25.because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher
:06:26. > :06:27.in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs
:06:28. > :06:29.aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the
:06:30. > :06:42.Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How
:06:43. > :06:45.can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just
:06:46. > :06:52.about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we
:06:53. > :06:55.are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers
:06:56. > :06:58.of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the
:06:59. > :07:02.wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we
:07:03. > :07:05.should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to
:07:06. > :07:09.the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett
:07:10. > :07:13.Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively
:07:14. > :07:18.prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance
:07:19. > :07:21.staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is
:07:22. > :07:25.more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland
:07:26. > :07:29.than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very
:07:30. > :07:33.poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That
:07:34. > :07:38.they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the
:07:39. > :07:44.Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand
:07:45. > :07:47.the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster
:07:48. > :07:52.politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to
:07:53. > :07:58.rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your
:07:59. > :08:01.leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of
:08:02. > :08:07.all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the
:08:08. > :08:09.Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was
:08:10. > :08:12.counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing
:08:13. > :08:17.voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep
:08:18. > :08:22.proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We
:08:23. > :08:26.said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes
:08:27. > :08:29.on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,
:08:30. > :08:33.pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of
:08:34. > :08:38.the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a
:08:39. > :08:43.Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double
:08:44. > :08:48.standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly
:08:49. > :08:55.unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is
:08:56. > :09:00.unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland
:09:01. > :09:06.gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London
:09:07. > :09:08.Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There
:09:09. > :09:15.is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.
:09:16. > :09:21.Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year
:09:22. > :09:28.revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5
:09:29. > :09:32.billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer
:09:33. > :09:36.investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a
:09:37. > :09:39.more federal system, we would need to look at things like the
:09:40. > :09:43.allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted
:09:44. > :09:47.as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party
:09:48. > :09:53.architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so
:09:54. > :09:57.it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to
:09:58. > :10:00.the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs
:10:01. > :10:05.basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of
:10:06. > :10:09.Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his
:10:10. > :10:13.promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English
:10:14. > :10:16.votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he
:10:17. > :10:21.made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked
:10:22. > :10:26.on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots
:10:27. > :10:31.of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at
:10:32. > :10:35.this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find
:10:36. > :10:39.that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot
:10:40. > :10:44.just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for
:10:45. > :10:47.all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more
:10:48. > :10:51.devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,
:10:52. > :10:55.and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's
:10:56. > :10:57.leave it there. Thank you for joining us.
:10:58. > :11:00.The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from
:11:01. > :11:02.the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex
:11:03. > :11:05.Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us
:11:06. > :11:07.another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand
:11:08. > :11:11.Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.
:11:12. > :11:14.In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,
:11:15. > :11:17.but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke
:11:18. > :11:39.The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for
:11:40. > :11:42.Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big
:11:43. > :11:46.screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories
:11:47. > :11:49.high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The
:11:50. > :11:55.other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is
:11:56. > :12:00.enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot
:12:01. > :12:12.papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000
:12:13. > :12:18.and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the
:12:19. > :12:21.first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like
:12:22. > :12:27.Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to
:12:28. > :12:36.sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you
:12:37. > :12:39.small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign
:12:40. > :12:46.applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went
:12:47. > :12:49.their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for
:12:50. > :12:54.independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of
:12:55. > :12:58.tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the
:12:59. > :13:04.refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy
:13:05. > :13:08.place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British
:13:09. > :13:13.establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this
:13:14. > :13:18.referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the
:13:19. > :13:23.establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.
:13:24. > :13:28.But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC
:13:29. > :13:34.called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The
:13:35. > :13:36.result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the
:13:37. > :13:43.official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen
:13:44. > :13:48.three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as
:13:49. > :13:52.the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south
:13:53. > :13:57.as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if
:13:58. > :13:59.it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote
:14:00. > :14:04.separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,
:14:05. > :14:08.spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern
:14:09. > :14:13.Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take
:14:14. > :14:18.place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.
:14:19. > :14:27.It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See
:14:28. > :14:30.you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be
:14:31. > :14:37.another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There
:14:38. > :14:42.was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,
:14:43. > :14:47.his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the
:14:48. > :14:54.Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,
:14:55. > :14:56.the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader
:14:57. > :15:06.gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as
:15:07. > :15:11.First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last
:15:12. > :15:15.night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if
:15:16. > :15:20.it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I
:15:21. > :15:23.certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the
:15:24. > :15:29.referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...
:15:30. > :15:33.Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally
:15:34. > :15:41.made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the
:15:42. > :15:51.decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you
:15:52. > :15:56.get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real
:15:57. > :16:00.possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion
:16:01. > :16:04.but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of
:16:05. > :16:08.the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are
:16:09. > :16:12.the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my
:16:13. > :16:16.judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the
:16:17. > :16:21.National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.
:16:22. > :16:24.In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day
:16:25. > :16:31.approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought
:16:32. > :16:39.for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real
:16:40. > :16:42.chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the
:16:43. > :16:48.decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,
:16:49. > :16:50.the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from
:16:51. > :16:55.Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the
:16:56. > :17:00.offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across
:17:01. > :17:03.to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get
:17:04. > :17:11.something anyway without the perceived risks that were being
:17:12. > :17:18.festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.
:17:19. > :17:22.You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more
:17:23. > :17:29.power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is
:17:30. > :17:33.a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part
:17:34. > :17:37.of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire
:17:38. > :17:42.wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to
:17:43. > :17:46.be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see
:17:47. > :17:51.that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There
:17:52. > :17:55.are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the
:17:56. > :18:02.party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24
:18:03. > :18:05.years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many
:18:06. > :18:09.able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will
:18:10. > :18:17.do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take
:18:18. > :18:20.this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is
:18:21. > :18:24.developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that
:18:25. > :18:30.lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won
:18:31. > :18:34.end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days
:18:35. > :18:38.before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would
:18:39. > :18:44.change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There
:18:45. > :18:50.are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as
:18:51. > :18:55.a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will
:18:56. > :19:00.leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before
:19:01. > :19:03.Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I
:19:04. > :19:08.would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary
:19:09. > :19:12.campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving
:19:13. > :19:16.the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like
:19:17. > :19:19.of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon
:19:20. > :19:26.of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far
:19:27. > :19:37.almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you
:19:38. > :19:44.would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and
:19:45. > :19:48.pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him
:19:49. > :19:55.that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.
:19:56. > :19:59.The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was
:20:00. > :20:04.extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in
:20:05. > :20:13.the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair
:20:14. > :20:16.kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line
:20:17. > :20:20.and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish
:20:21. > :20:26.Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,
:20:27. > :20:36.certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in
:20:37. > :20:41.Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum
:20:42. > :20:46.wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that
:20:47. > :20:50.still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal
:20:51. > :20:55.view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK
:20:56. > :20:58.moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of
:20:59. > :21:02.circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and
:21:03. > :21:08.I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am
:21:09. > :21:12.just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally
:21:13. > :21:18.shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?
:21:19. > :21:21.You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that
:21:22. > :21:26.essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants
:21:27. > :21:29.to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that
:21:30. > :21:34.because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this
:21:35. > :21:38.and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are
:21:39. > :21:41.frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority
:21:42. > :21:46.in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an
:21:47. > :21:52.irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is
:21:53. > :21:55.movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something
:21:56. > :21:58.cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I
:21:59. > :22:04.think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It
:22:05. > :22:09.was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,
:22:10. > :22:15.effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and
:22:16. > :22:22.David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about
:22:23. > :22:29.the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that
:22:30. > :22:35.matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you
:22:36. > :22:40.advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or
:22:41. > :22:47.her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader
:22:48. > :22:52.brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very
:22:53. > :22:59.favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined
:23:00. > :23:02.since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in
:23:03. > :23:14.the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity
:23:15. > :23:18.for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would
:23:19. > :23:24.repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First
:23:25. > :23:27.Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of
:23:28. > :23:34.Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --
:23:35. > :23:38.substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my
:23:39. > :23:47.head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last
:23:48. > :23:54.line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not
:23:55. > :23:58.seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the
:23:59. > :24:03.Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?
:24:04. > :24:10.What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is
:24:11. > :24:13.dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose
:24:14. > :24:18.to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a
:24:19. > :24:21.constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line
:24:22. > :24:25.politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do
:24:26. > :24:32.it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom
:24:33. > :24:35.from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your
:24:36. > :24:38.feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to
:24:39. > :24:43.people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of
:24:44. > :24:55.Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes
:24:56. > :25:03.Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the
:25:04. > :25:07.independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general
:25:08. > :25:13.election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be
:25:14. > :25:17.talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men
:25:18. > :25:21.and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday
:25:22. > :25:26.Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the
:25:27. > :25:29.Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates
:25:30. > :25:33.say that the level of public spending during their last period of
:25:34. > :25:38.office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise
:25:39. > :25:42.taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On
:25:43. > :25:47.immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too
:25:48. > :25:51.high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates
:25:52. > :25:55.believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.
:25:56. > :26:01.Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the
:26:02. > :26:04.candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in
:26:05. > :26:10.five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change
:26:11. > :26:19.of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came
:26:20. > :26:23.in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.
:26:24. > :26:30.Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think
:26:31. > :26:33.I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't
:26:34. > :26:37.think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I
:26:38. > :26:41.think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many
:26:42. > :26:45.of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next
:26:46. > :26:48.generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your
:26:49. > :26:52.viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they
:26:53. > :26:56.can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the
:26:57. > :27:00.public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want
:27:01. > :27:03.to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they
:27:04. > :27:06.don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap
:27:07. > :27:11.Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party
:27:12. > :27:15.policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our
:27:16. > :27:19.policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over
:27:20. > :27:22.?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that
:27:23. > :27:30.enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk
:27:31. > :27:34.to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns
:27:35. > :27:37.about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,
:27:38. > :27:41.yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they
:27:42. > :27:45.take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural
:27:46. > :27:48.nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't
:27:49. > :27:54.think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's
:27:55. > :28:00.not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You
:28:01. > :28:04.described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you
:28:05. > :28:09.that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions
:28:10. > :28:12.that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t
:28:13. > :28:17.think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the
:28:18. > :28:21.heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,
:28:22. > :28:25.radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It
:28:26. > :28:35.isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will
:28:36. > :28:39.have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general
:28:40. > :28:43.election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.
:28:44. > :28:49.I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They
:28:50. > :28:53.are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a
:28:54. > :28:57.small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's
:28:58. > :29:01.pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or
:29:02. > :29:05.wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour
:29:06. > :29:13.is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old
:29:14. > :29:17.or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great
:29:18. > :29:22.country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can
:29:23. > :29:25.achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are
:29:26. > :29:29.not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of
:29:30. > :29:33.their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.
:29:34. > :29:36.Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we
:29:37. > :29:40.are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you
:29:41. > :29:43.want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between
:29:44. > :29:53.Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next
:29:54. > :29:55.government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that
:29:56. > :29:58.the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them
:29:59. > :30:03.think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.
:30:04. > :30:09.Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly
:30:10. > :30:13.representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member
:30:14. > :30:15.of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here
:30:16. > :30:19.to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.
:30:20. > :30:25.Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it
:30:26. > :30:28.should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help
:30:29. > :30:34.create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories
:30:35. > :30:38.we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have
:30:39. > :30:42.trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees
:30:43. > :30:46.to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or
:30:47. > :30:50.bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the
:30:51. > :30:58.tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's
:30:59. > :31:02.turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional
:31:03. > :31:04.conversation where you have to discuss whether English people
:31:05. > :31:09.voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions
:31:10. > :31:12.and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,
:31:13. > :31:21.we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying
:31:22. > :31:26.rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is
:31:27. > :31:29.the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where
:31:30. > :31:32.people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers
:31:33. > :31:38.talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point
:31:39. > :31:42.you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to
:31:43. > :31:47.vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you
:31:48. > :31:51.see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is
:31:52. > :31:55.an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so
:31:56. > :31:58.simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British
:31:59. > :32:05.constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of
:32:06. > :32:10.Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the
:32:11. > :32:14.transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In
:32:15. > :32:17.Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote
:32:18. > :32:21.on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different
:32:22. > :32:25.votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not
:32:26. > :32:28.necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in
:32:29. > :32:33.Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I
:32:34. > :32:38.think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy
:32:39. > :32:42.in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,
:32:43. > :32:45.Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to
:32:46. > :32:49.now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue
:32:50. > :32:54.of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in
:32:55. > :32:58.bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.
:32:59. > :33:01.What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give
:33:02. > :33:07.you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a
:33:08. > :33:10.rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and
:33:11. > :33:16.there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has
:33:17. > :33:20.vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell
:33:21. > :33:24.us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme
:33:25. > :33:28.right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on
:33:29. > :33:32.tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.
:33:33. > :33:37.Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable
:33:38. > :33:41.future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending
:33:42. > :33:44.for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many
:33:45. > :33:50.of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said
:33:51. > :33:53.that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing
:33:54. > :33:57.out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has
:33:58. > :33:59.done which is having already deprived communities having money
:34:00. > :34:04.taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We
:34:05. > :34:10.accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?
:34:11. > :34:15.There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to
:34:16. > :34:21.do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm
:34:22. > :34:24.not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --
:34:25. > :34:31.government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which
:34:32. > :34:34.is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in
:34:35. > :34:40.Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We
:34:41. > :34:44.have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,
:34:45. > :34:47.you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure
:34:48. > :34:52.necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this
:34:53. > :34:55.debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I
:34:56. > :35:00.want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The
:35:01. > :35:04.unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of
:35:05. > :35:07.the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up
:35:08. > :35:11.different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against
:35:12. > :35:14.what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we
:35:15. > :35:18.shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the
:35:19. > :35:23.minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which
:35:24. > :35:28.would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five
:35:29. > :35:35.years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back
:35:36. > :35:41.in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I
:35:42. > :35:47.can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we
:35:48. > :35:50.have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if
:35:51. > :35:54.people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income
:35:55. > :35:58.tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in
:35:59. > :36:02.tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm
:36:03. > :36:07.not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid
:36:08. > :36:11.workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the
:36:12. > :36:16.payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they
:36:17. > :36:21.get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our
:36:22. > :36:24.proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at
:36:25. > :36:33.the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I
:36:34. > :36:37.cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if
:36:38. > :36:40.you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest
:36:41. > :36:43.paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down
:36:44. > :36:50.this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %
:36:51. > :36:54.and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I
:36:55. > :36:59.don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just
:37:00. > :37:03.don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out
:37:04. > :37:07.policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies
:37:08. > :37:09.before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their
:37:10. > :37:12.pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are
:37:13. > :37:17.also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as
:37:18. > :37:21.well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering
:37:22. > :37:23.great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge
:37:24. > :37:28.number it's still not delivering for a huge
:37:29. > :37:31.The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three
:37:32. > :37:35.days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,
:37:36. > :37:37.not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're
:37:38. > :37:40.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland
:37:41. > :37:42.who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:43. > :37:47.we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing
:37:48. > :37:50.Labour as their conference starts First though,
:37:51. > :37:53.the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to
:37:54. > :38:02.the local part of the progr`mme The no vote in the Scottish
:38:03. > :38:06.referendum, promises to change how we're governed here,
:38:07. > :38:08.and there're plenty of ideas being We'll discuss those later,
:38:09. > :38:11.and ask could Saint Edmund, the last King of East Angli`,
:38:12. > :38:25.help us forge a regional iddntity? At this particular moment when we
:38:26. > :38:29.are thinking about nationalhsm and England, we need to remind ourselves
:38:30. > :38:31.that the word England comes from the word Anglia.
:38:32. > :38:33.Of course, because Scotland voted no, it meant parliament was not
:38:34. > :38:36.recalled and the Labour Party has been able to gather in Manchester
:38:37. > :38:41.And a key policy to be disctssed is the party's plans to transform
:38:42. > :38:47.At the forefront of Labour's drive for part re`nationalisation is
:38:48. > :38:50.the east coast mainline, which runs through Stevenagd and
:38:51. > :38:54.Peterborough and which they believe should remain in public hands.
:38:55. > :39:00.Good morning from Manchester where the rdgional
:39:01. > :39:05.Ed Miliband dropped into their eve of conference recdption
:39:06. > :39:09.last night and told them th`t the route to Labour being back hn power
:39:10. > :39:15.This election is ours to win, he said, but we must keep working
:39:16. > :39:27.Labour has eight dozen key seats in the region.
:39:28. > :39:29.This conference is all about highlighting policies which will
:39:30. > :39:43.We've had his announcement about the minimum wage todax but
:39:44. > :39:51.There are many Labour candidates, in Norfolk, Milton Keynes and Peter
:39:52. > :39:54.Bradshaw openly calling for full renationalisation of the rahlways.
:39:55. > :39:59.The party leadership will not go that far but they have come up with
:40:00. > :40:06.a form of partial renationalisation. They want to see companies taking
:40:07. > :40:12.over franchises. So, can it work? In a moment, Labour's case. But, first,
:40:13. > :40:22.isn't there an argument for keeping privatisation? This is how ht used
:40:23. > :40:27.to be back in the 80s, or this is what the adverts want us to believe.
:40:28. > :40:34.Commuters, bound for the office The reality was very different. British
:40:35. > :40:40.rail felt tired and dated, with old rolling stock, poor punctuality and
:40:41. > :40:45.very expensive to run. The dntrance port secretary, John MacGregor, set
:40:46. > :40:48.about planning its privatis`tion. It is the right way to have an
:40:49. > :40:57.effective railway system. Wd have seen it happen in other countries.
:40:58. > :41:02.Then you see big improvements. There is a growing body of opinion within
:41:03. > :41:06.the Labour Party that privatisation hasn't delivered what it promised
:41:07. > :41:10.and it is time to make some changes. But there is also a lot of dvidence
:41:11. > :41:15.that privatisation has been very good for the railways, and partly
:41:16. > :41:21.re`nationalising some franchises would be costly, confusing, and
:41:22. > :41:25.wouldn't make much difference. Six rail franchises now operate across
:41:26. > :41:29.our region. A major study conducted last year found that since
:41:30. > :41:34.privatisation, things have hmproved, not just a butt across the country.
:41:35. > :41:38.Not all of the measures likd punctuality, frequency of sdrvices,
:41:39. > :41:43.customer satisfaction, but `ll of those are up. On a broad range of
:41:44. > :41:50.measures, it's been a success. Passenger journeys are up 4$ every
:41:51. > :41:55.year before privatisation it was 1.7%. Satisfaction levels h`ve
:41:56. > :42:00.climbed from 76% to 85%. Thd amount of rolling stock is up 19%. Making
:42:01. > :42:05.companies bid to run a railway line has driven up standards. Thdre are
:42:06. > :42:09.performance regimes in Herod in the franchise documents, which hs
:42:10. > :42:12.everything from punctuality, to the level of graffiti and litter on the
:42:13. > :42:17.trains. They have to abide by those and if they don't, there ard
:42:18. > :42:21.significant penalties. Finally, there are committed obligathons in
:42:22. > :42:25.the bid. Copyright about wh`t you will do, the government will hold
:42:26. > :42:30.you to those obligations. The amount of money generated by the r`il
:42:31. > :42:33.companies for the government to reinvest in new track has qtadrupled
:42:34. > :42:39.since privatisation. The fr`nchises also contribute to rolling stock.
:42:40. > :42:42.MPs are campaigning for multi`million pound improvelents to
:42:43. > :42:46.the region's rail network and say taxpayers could never put stch a
:42:47. > :42:49.bill. What happens when unaccompanied takes on a fr`nchise
:42:50. > :42:54.is essentially they put up the money to get things like new carrhages and
:42:55. > :42:58.that is what we need partictlar on the Norwich to London line. We need
:42:59. > :43:03.that investment coming in to get us a better railway. The actual money
:43:04. > :43:08.comes from the operator signing up to run the next franchise. Not only
:43:09. > :43:13.is it important that they m`ke that investment, that operator, but it is
:43:14. > :43:17.also important this proceeds to time. They do points to the success
:43:18. > :43:21.of the East Coast Main Line, a failing franchise which has done
:43:22. > :43:25.well in temporary public ownership, as proof the public sector can do a
:43:26. > :43:30.better job. It wants to see it publicly run company being `llowed
:43:31. > :43:35.to bid for franchises alongside the commercial sector, a sort of partial
:43:36. > :43:39.renationalisation. This is lodelled thinking because it is actu`lly
:43:40. > :43:45.quite a palaver to bid for one of these trench rises. It might cost
:43:46. > :43:53.?10 million. Which, if the state owned franchisee, that monex will be
:43:54. > :43:57.wasted. It would be simpler to say let the franchises run out, we will
:43:58. > :44:03.take them back in`house and recreate a kind of British rail. This week, a
:44:04. > :44:06.new company took over the rtnning of the old First Capital Connect
:44:07. > :44:11.franchise. Passengers didn't notice much difference on day one. 17 years
:44:12. > :44:16.after privatisation, there hs still a need to improve the region's rail
:44:17. > :44:36.services. The government believes franchising is still the best way
:44:37. > :44:45.forward. Earlier in the week I asked Mary Craegh why change now. People
:44:46. > :44:53.are to side. They were paxing ?6,000 a year in 2010 and in January
:44:54. > :44:57.2015, season ticket holders will be paying ?7,660 a year. Just for the
:44:58. > :45:00.privilege of getting to work in London. In that time, down to
:45:01. > :45:05.government incompetence, thdy will have seen no `` improvement in
:45:06. > :45:10.rolling stock, little improvement in train running time, and there has
:45:11. > :45:18.been a series of things running on this line which means that there
:45:19. > :45:23.hasn't been a lot of investlent in this land. There has been a lot of
:45:24. > :45:28.dissatisfaction in that lind and Chloe Smith would agree with you.
:45:29. > :45:33.But if the private sector is not involved in that line, wherd is that
:45:34. > :45:37.money going to come from poor investment? This is a heavily
:45:38. > :45:41.subsidised franchise so we want to see better value on the lind and we
:45:42. > :45:44.think there are plans to brhng together track and trains in a new
:45:45. > :45:49.overarching organisation, to plan the sort of investment we nded, to
:45:50. > :45:54.plan the rolling stock and better train carriages on the line, this is
:45:55. > :45:57.what the country needs, not another series of franchise extensions and
:45:58. > :46:03.poor value for money for passengers and taxpayers. Let's talk about
:46:04. > :46:07.Labour's policy. What do yot actually want to do? Are yot in or
:46:08. > :46:14.out? With you renationalise the whole system, or not? We want to
:46:15. > :46:18.bring together Network Rail and the passenger rail organisations into
:46:19. > :46:23.one body that actually looks at the railway as a single hole. I am still
:46:24. > :46:29.not clear what your policy hs. It's not just me. We heard from other
:46:30. > :46:34.people. They think it is also a bit of a model. We are trying to go
:46:35. > :46:37.beyond the ideological debate of public versus private and h`ve a
:46:38. > :46:42.railway that puts interest of passengers first, not profits. We
:46:43. > :46:46.want to have a cap on rail fares. We want to an upper directly operated
:46:47. > :46:50.railway to bid at games the private sector operators and we want to
:46:51. > :46:53.devolve rail services to local communities to run them in the
:46:54. > :46:58.interest of the economic ardas they serve. He spent some time in this
:46:59. > :47:03.interview telling us the down point of privatisation. Why not go the
:47:04. > :47:08.whole hog and renationalise our railway which is what a lot of
:47:09. > :47:11.Labour MPs would like to sed you do. There are many people who would like
:47:12. > :47:16.to see the railways renationalise but we have to be aware this is a
:47:17. > :47:21.time. The financial crisis for whoever winds the next election And
:47:22. > :47:24.we have to make sure we are getting absolute best value on the railways
:47:25. > :47:29.for the taxpayers. Isn't thhs a question of being a little bit brief
:47:30. > :47:35.here and doing it? What we `re proposing is brave. It goes against
:47:36. > :47:39.the old left and right debates, it looks at the passenger and their
:47:40. > :47:43.journey. That is why the rahlway needs to be, not looking at the
:47:44. > :47:47.vested interest of the railway companies, not going back to the old
:47:48. > :47:51.days of British rail. We nedd a railway fit for the 20th century and
:47:52. > :47:54.I'm afraid under this government that has been sadly lacking. I
:47:55. > :48:01.started talking about passengers with you, let's finish with the
:48:02. > :48:05.passengers. How will you allay fears? I can hear people saxing
:48:06. > :48:10.oh, my goodness, this is gohng to take us back to the bad old stays of
:48:11. > :48:15.British rail. We are going to have confusion, chaos, strikes. What do
:48:16. > :48:22.you say to those people? Wh`t I would say is that we are not trying
:48:23. > :48:29.to go back to the old days of British rails but to go to ` new
:48:30. > :48:33.21st`century. Anyone on a train in East Anglia would see that hs the
:48:34. > :48:35.future of rail transport. M`ry Craegh, thank you very much.
:48:36. > :48:38.So let's meet our guests, Luton MP Gavin Shuker for L`bour
:48:39. > :48:40.and George Freeman, the Conservative MP for Mid Norfolk
:48:41. > :48:49.Gavin Shuker, I am still not clear about Labour's policy, are xou? I
:48:50. > :48:53.am, actually. Essentially, what we are saying is we have a fragmented
:48:54. > :48:58.railway system at the moment. For a lot of people, their daily commute
:48:59. > :49:01.is a grind. Why can't we allow the public sector to compete alongside
:49:02. > :49:10.the private sector, as they have done with East Coast, with brilliant
:49:11. > :49:13.performance. We think banning the private sector from the railways is
:49:14. > :49:17.wrong. That is what the Torhes are pursuing, and it is what we will
:49:18. > :49:21.reverse in government. You can get away from it, George Freeman, the
:49:22. > :49:26.trains have been appalling fists and very expensive. More and more people
:49:27. > :49:32.are using the trains, they `re full. This is a really, really silly
:49:33. > :49:37.policy and went somebody it is an expert says things like that, you
:49:38. > :49:41.are in a mess. More and mord passengers are using the rahlways,
:49:42. > :49:46.higher volumes, higher satisfaction and we have embarked on a ?38
:49:47. > :49:50.billion programme on rail investment. The biggest since the
:49:51. > :49:58.Victorian age. You have no `nswer to how we invest in a modern r`ilway
:49:59. > :50:02.network. My daily commute, for example, is First Capital Connect.
:50:03. > :50:07.Now the new train operating company. The reasons why the standard is
:50:08. > :50:12.coming up is because the government is investing. I would prefer that if
:50:13. > :50:16.there is value in that franchise, I would prefer the value coming back
:50:17. > :50:21.to government. I would have the private sector and public sdctor to
:50:22. > :50:25.compete along the same rules. Let's look at East Coast mainline. ?2 0
:50:26. > :50:30.million for the Exchequer, why not leave it where it is? A couple of
:50:31. > :50:34.reasons. If you look at it, and off`peak return fare is twice as
:50:35. > :50:39.expensive as the West Coast. Frequency is down and puncttality is
:50:40. > :50:47.down. That service is getting worse in public ownership and the idea we
:50:48. > :50:52.will go back to the `` to the old days of British rock is silly. There
:50:53. > :50:56.were strikes, bad food, expdnsive. You've got to ask a question, where
:50:57. > :51:02.will you find the investment if you nationalise it? If you don't think
:51:03. > :51:07.there is a problem currentlx on RL or system, if you don't think that
:51:08. > :51:13.we are more expensive than on the continent... I do, but you have to
:51:14. > :51:18.ask the question, where will you get money from? More debt and more tax.
:51:19. > :51:22.I wanted to ask both of you, were you up through the night on
:51:23. > :51:27.Thursday? I started and I fhnished, but I went to sleep in the liddle. I
:51:28. > :51:28.went to sleep confident the people of Scotland would do the right
:51:29. > :51:30.thing. Well, in the end, it was a decided
:51:31. > :51:34.no to independence from the people of Scotland but their vote hs set to
:51:35. > :51:37.have a direct impact on us here David Cameron has pledged to deliver
:51:38. > :51:40.a new and fair devolution sdttlement for the whole of the UK,
:51:41. > :51:43.and that includes us. But how will more power be delivered
:51:44. > :51:45.here in the east We have ruled ourselves before,
:51:46. > :51:49.even if it was centuries ago, In the 850s, King Edmund ruled
:51:50. > :51:54.the East of England. The region was independent,
:51:55. > :51:59.rich and powerful. Rather than being English,
:52:00. > :52:02.people here considered themselves This statue of King Edmund here in
:52:03. > :52:08.Bury Saint Edmunds was commhssioned in 1974 to mark the unification
:52:09. > :52:14.of East and West Suffolk. For his part, this 9th centtry
:52:15. > :52:19.East Anglian King was remembered for his sense of justice, f`irness,
:52:20. > :52:24.his unwavering passion Imagine no running water,
:52:25. > :52:31.no electricity. People were much more local,
:52:32. > :52:38.lived much more locally. That whole thing of the thrdat
:52:39. > :52:41.of a Viking invasion, All those things led people
:52:42. > :52:53.to live much more localised. Captured by Vikings at Hoxon in
:52:54. > :52:56.Suffolk, this is where the country's last ruler of an independent
:52:57. > :52:59.regional kingdom met his brttal end. Of course, at this particul`r
:53:00. > :53:01.moment, when we are thinking about nationalism and England, we need to
:53:02. > :53:04.remind ourselves that the word So, in one sense,
:53:05. > :53:09.we are where England begins. Self`determination
:53:10. > :53:20.is very important. However, to say that the Angles are
:53:21. > :53:23.entitled to some sort of devolution begs the question what other groups
:53:24. > :53:29.are entitled to devolution? Devolution to the regions is not
:53:30. > :53:32.on the agenda. Which seems rather absurd bdcause,
:53:33. > :53:35.as far as I can see, It could be in places like Bedford.
:53:36. > :53:42.It's like that. I don't think we have much
:53:43. > :53:45.association with the countids Although more powers for thd East
:53:46. > :53:50.are broadly being welcomed, there are many questions ovdr how it
:53:51. > :53:54.could be devolved. We should also, of course,
:53:55. > :54:02.decentralise much more to local government,
:54:03. > :54:04.much more to the county of Dssex, to towns and cities like Chelmsford,
:54:05. > :54:07.and Ipswich, and Cambridge, and also to the great cities `
:54:08. > :54:12.London, Manchester, Norwich. We should be celebrating
:54:13. > :54:17.and empowering local governlent This referendum vote,
:54:18. > :54:20.very high turnout, narrow ddfeat for independence, everyone `greeing
:54:21. > :54:23.more powers to Scotland. That has got to mean more powers
:54:24. > :54:26.for localities in England as well. It could be very good news
:54:27. > :54:29.for us here in the East. So, no matter what route we take,
:54:30. > :54:33.the destination should lead to local people to having
:54:34. > :54:50.a greater say over how they live. Sounds like a great idea, btt how do
:54:51. > :54:53.we deliver it? The first thhng you did was scrap the regional
:54:54. > :54:58.assemblies. They were a waste of money and didn't achieve enough The
:54:59. > :55:01.big point David Cameron has made is that we have given Scotland a
:55:02. > :55:05.devolution package and I thhnk that has been the right thing to do.
:55:06. > :55:10.Wales has an independent assembly and Northern Ireland, too. We need
:55:11. > :55:17.to talk about the Midlothian question. Gavin's party when they
:55:18. > :55:26.were in power... It is time we looked to the English questhon. Do
:55:27. > :55:32.we deliver it, Gavin Shuker to the cities because we don't havd many
:55:33. > :55:37.cities. Luton isn't a city. Sadly, but we are working on it. I would
:55:38. > :55:41.devolve much more down to local communities. Every government
:55:42. > :55:44.pledges devolution and then they take the other approach. I think
:55:45. > :55:47.devolution down to the most appropriate level, the most local
:55:48. > :55:51.level is the right one, and I think people will look at what has
:55:52. > :55:56.happened in Scotland and David Cameron's rushed announcement that
:55:57. > :56:03.he didn't tell other party leaders about. What about East Anglha's
:56:04. > :56:09.identity? We heard in that film we have difficulties. We are E`st and
:56:10. > :56:15.West, not gelling. It is trhcky It is, and we need a package of
:56:16. > :56:20.constitutional reforms. If we don't get the image question right, it
:56:21. > :56:24.will be illegitimate. I think one of Labour's good idea was elected
:56:25. > :56:31.mayors and cities. We need stronger leadership there. The north`east was
:56:32. > :56:37.given a big raspberry under John Prescott. The regional government
:56:38. > :56:42.isn't the answer. We can work together in East Anglia and we
:56:43. > :56:44.should. We have done locallx is back to neighbourhoods and towns and
:56:45. > :56:50.parishes. Let's talk about the time frame. Gavin Shuker, Ed Milhband
:56:51. > :56:55.said it is important but let's do it in the right way. But sounds like
:56:56. > :57:01.he's putting the brakes on things. We need to consult people in the
:57:02. > :57:05.country and work out what wd want to do. I have to say, the ironx of
:57:06. > :57:09.spending the last three years watching the zombie governmdnt doing
:57:10. > :57:13.very little and then in the final six they are going to throw all the
:57:14. > :57:17.pieces up in the air is not wasted on me. That is going to hold up
:57:18. > :57:21.getting power in the east, which is said is said is a good thing. You
:57:22. > :57:28.can do much greater devoluthon right now to local authorities. The truth
:57:29. > :57:30.is... Everyone is scared because there is a general election coming
:57:31. > :57:35.up and they know they will never form a government without Scottish
:57:36. > :57:44.MPs. That is not true! That is why they ask aired. Let me just ask you,
:57:45. > :57:52.should we discussed properlx? Should we recall Parliament? We should be
:57:53. > :57:52.discussing fairness giving devolution to Scotland becatse
:57:53. > :57:54.England deserves better. Of course, the referendum h`s
:57:55. > :57:57.been the big story this week. But plenty of other politic`l news,
:57:58. > :57:59.too. Here's our 60 second round
:58:00. > :58:06.up with Deborah McGurran. Hundreds of jobs are under threat
:58:07. > :58:09.at Group Lotus in Norfolk. The company, which builds
:58:10. > :58:12.high`performance sports cars, could shed a third of its workforce
:58:13. > :58:17.as part of restructuring pl`ns. We want to do everything we can to
:58:18. > :58:20.make sure that the end numbdr, the actual number of job losses
:58:21. > :58:23.is as low as it possibly can be Day centres in Northamptonshire
:58:24. > :58:26.including the Afro`Caribbean They now have to apply to
:58:27. > :58:32.the council for money You have this in the pipeline
:58:33. > :58:37.for closing. Right in the middle
:58:38. > :58:40.of Wellingborough! Where are these people going to go,
:58:41. > :58:44.for God's sake? The blame game over the King's Lynn
:58:45. > :58:48.incinerator continued this week when the Public Accounts Colmittee
:58:49. > :58:52.said DEFRA's withdrawal of funding had left Norfolk taxpayers hn the
:58:53. > :58:58.lurch to the tune of ?34 million. We can ill afford to throw this sort
:58:59. > :59:02.of money away, and we are h`ving to throw it away, effectively,
:59:03. > :59:18.because the government can't make up So, a pretty unsettling week for
:59:19. > :59:22.those working at Group Lotus. We heard Richard Bacon they're saying
:59:23. > :59:26.everything must be done, but practically what can the government
:59:27. > :59:33.do to try to bring those potential 325 job losses down? I am working
:59:34. > :59:39.closely with Richard on this and with events. I'm making surd we are
:59:40. > :59:41.doing everything. We have a reasonable track record when these
:59:42. > :59:48.restructures take place. Whdn we talk to the company many jobs can
:59:49. > :59:52.be. The truth is that in thhs area we have two Formula One teals in
:59:53. > :59:57.Norfolk. Northamptonshire is a global centre for Formula One, we
:59:58. > :00:02.have a great story to be proud of. Many people will recycle into the
:00:03. > :00:08.automotive economy. This nedd not be a disaster. Gavin Shuker, it was
:00:09. > :00:14.almost a disaster for foxhole in Luton. But it came back frol the
:00:15. > :00:20.brink. Any essence for Lotus? In 2001 when we lost the car plant
:00:21. > :00:24.10,000 jobs that was. But wd allowed people to retrain and get into new
:00:25. > :00:28.jobs. Peter Mandelson, under the last Labour government, these guys
:00:29. > :00:32.in government as well, therd is a strong story about automotive that
:00:33. > :00:36.has meant that places like GM have decided to reinvest in Luton. We are
:00:37. > :00:44.the last place to make whitd vans here. The Ashes of the car hndustry
:00:45. > :00:50.in the 70s, we rebuilt the automotive industry. Thank xou both
:00:51. > :00:56.very much. We're back next week at the same time for the other
:00:57. > :00:58.the Conservative mayor's policy No more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back
:00:59. > :01:06.to you. Welcome back the to Labour
:01:07. > :01:08.conference, where we're joined by the latest hot new stand-up
:01:09. > :01:12.comedian on the Manchester circuit. I speak of course of former Deputy
:01:13. > :01:17.Prime Minister John Prescott. In between giving tub-thumping
:01:18. > :01:19.speeches to rally the party faithful this week,
:01:20. > :01:22.he's appearing at the Comedy Store. He was also of course the man
:01:23. > :01:35.behind the last attempt to solve Our political panel is with me as
:01:36. > :01:38.well. John, we have got Scottish votes for Scottish laws, and more
:01:39. > :01:43.Scottish votes for Scottish laws, why not English votes for English
:01:44. > :01:46.laws? That's an English parliament in a major constitutional change and
:01:47. > :01:50.that is what has started. I certainly don't agree with that I
:01:51. > :01:54.campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it
:01:55. > :01:57.in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the
:01:58. > :02:04.same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do
:02:05. > :02:10.that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know,
:02:11. > :02:15.in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32
:02:16. > :02:19.years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now,
:02:20. > :02:24.but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all
:02:25. > :02:31.around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35
:02:32. > :02:34.years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory
:02:35. > :02:40.dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's
:02:41. > :02:44.not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal
:02:45. > :02:47.structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal
:02:48. > :02:51.structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer
:02:52. > :02:55.representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the
:02:56. > :03:01.Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done
:03:02. > :03:06.in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and
:03:07. > :03:11.it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to
:03:12. > :03:14.get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English
:03:15. > :03:19.parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low
:03:20. > :03:25.politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in
:03:26. > :03:29.the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do
:03:30. > :03:32.not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he
:03:33. > :03:36.will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England
:03:37. > :03:40.vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level
:03:41. > :03:45.of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have
:03:46. > :03:48.been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see
:03:49. > :03:52.what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula.
:03:53. > :03:56.But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to
:03:57. > :04:01.discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We
:04:02. > :04:05.had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of
:04:06. > :04:10.English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about
:04:11. > :04:15.trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly
:04:16. > :04:19.and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime
:04:20. > :04:23.commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and
:04:24. > :04:26.it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to
:04:27. > :04:31.British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the
:04:32. > :04:34.turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is
:04:35. > :04:37.phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real
:04:38. > :04:41.influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know
:04:42. > :04:44.you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it
:04:45. > :04:49.doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about
:04:50. > :04:52.equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The
:04:53. > :04:57.English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too
:04:58. > :05:01.long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving
:05:02. > :05:05.power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed
:05:06. > :05:08.Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same
:05:09. > :05:12.idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we
:05:13. > :05:16.really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver
:05:17. > :05:22.if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people I
:05:23. > :05:27.live in whole, and it stops on the boundary of the Pennines -- the city
:05:28. > :05:30.of Hull. We have city regions from Labour because I failed in the
:05:31. > :05:35.north-east to get the assemblies in, and now we have to look at those
:05:36. > :05:38.options. Do you work through city regions? Mainly in the north, I
:05:39. > :05:42.might say. Even the federal structure they talk about my be in
:05:43. > :05:46.the North or Midlands with Birmingham, but there are a number
:05:47. > :05:49.of options and that is where I believe that what the White Paper
:05:50. > :05:53.should do is to put those options in. Instead of having to put them
:05:54. > :05:57.together, state what you want to do in the English regions. Leave it to
:05:58. > :06:01.the legislation, which is what will happen with the Scottish, and once
:06:02. > :06:06.you've agreed it, you do it after. You have to start the radical debate
:06:07. > :06:11.about giving the English regions, not centralised in London, but
:06:12. > :06:13.decentralised. Do you need to have a separate English parliament?
:06:14. > :06:18.Wouldn't it just satisfy the English if you simply said to MPs, when it's
:06:19. > :06:23.in English matter in the House of Commons, stop interfering? I would
:06:24. > :06:28.disagree with that. I would say put the option in the White Paper. The
:06:29. > :06:31.White Paper seems to be talking about Scotland. If you don't put the
:06:32. > :06:36.commitments to what you want to do with the English regions, people
:06:37. > :06:39.might say I'm not supporting that. Put the framework in the White
:06:40. > :06:43.Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been
:06:44. > :06:47.to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start
:06:48. > :06:54.looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the
:06:55. > :06:59.debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British
:07:00. > :07:02.socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the
:07:03. > :07:05.referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the
:07:06. > :07:11.Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional
:07:12. > :07:14.working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would
:07:15. > :07:23.say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the
:07:24. > :07:27.message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either
:07:28. > :07:32.the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas
:07:33. > :07:36.that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in
:07:37. > :07:39.Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and
:07:40. > :07:43.you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because
:07:44. > :07:48.that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on
:07:49. > :07:51.your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to
:07:52. > :08:00.the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an
:08:01. > :08:05.English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out
:08:06. > :08:11.I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was
:08:12. > :08:15.that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were
:08:16. > :08:19.against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to
:08:20. > :08:23.come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their
:08:24. > :08:27.share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was
:08:28. > :08:32.about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got
:08:33. > :08:39.any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote?
:08:40. > :08:47.No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted
:08:48. > :08:54.yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech
:08:55. > :08:58.by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are
:08:59. > :09:05.many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just
:09:06. > :09:08.now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage You
:09:09. > :09:13.are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That
:09:14. > :09:17.is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and
:09:18. > :09:20.we have to say it will be saved If you can save all of these bankers
:09:21. > :09:24.with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,
:09:25. > :09:29.say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I
:09:30. > :09:33.have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a
:09:34. > :09:38.deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy
:09:39. > :09:42.it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for
:09:43. > :09:45.up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy
:09:46. > :09:50.the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not
:09:51. > :09:53.listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in
:09:54. > :09:58.three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling
:09:59. > :10:02.them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want
:10:03. > :10:07.commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing
:10:08. > :10:13.health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour.
:10:14. > :10:16.That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered
:10:17. > :10:19.about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know
:10:20. > :10:24.it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.
:10:25. > :10:29.I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe
:10:30. > :10:33.it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the
:10:34. > :10:39.polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We
:10:40. > :10:44.haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to
:10:45. > :10:49.repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is
:10:50. > :10:53.quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying
:10:54. > :10:59.to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given
:11:00. > :11:01.2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the
:11:02. > :11:09.next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the
:11:10. > :11:13.proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when
:11:14. > :11:18.we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and
:11:19. > :11:24.that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys
:11:25. > :11:29.run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under
:11:30. > :11:35.Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is
:11:36. > :11:39.still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,
:11:40. > :11:43.but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible
:11:44. > :11:46.discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about
:11:47. > :11:50.finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We
:11:51. > :11:54.need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell
:11:55. > :11:57.me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting
:11:58. > :12:01.screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown
:12:02. > :12:07.coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did
:12:08. > :12:12.a poll of the Labour candidates you were watching on the big screen
:12:13. > :12:18.when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette
:12:19. > :12:27.Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not
:12:28. > :12:37.true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean?
:12:38. > :12:45.You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping
:12:46. > :12:52.comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got
:12:53. > :12:57.that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former
:12:58. > :12:59.Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are
:13:00. > :13:01.useless. my guests. I'll be back here at
:13:02. > :13:05.Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring
:13:06. > :13:10.you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday
:13:11. > :13:16.you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:17. > :13:22.it's the Sunday Politics.