:00:36. > :00:38.Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,
:00:39. > :00:45.live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.
:00:46. > :00:46.There will be one less Conservative MP here after Mark Reckless defected
:00:47. > :00:52.He joins us live from his constituency, where he has
:00:53. > :00:59.It has not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister, as he
:01:00. > :01:02.arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.
:01:03. > :01:05.On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned
:01:06. > :01:13.RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq
:01:14. > :01:20.Here in the east, with our roads, railways and rural broadband left
:01:21. > :01:22.wanting, we ask what have the Conservatives done for ts?
:01:23. > :01:27.And they're smiling now but can UKIP really deliver when in power?
:01:28. > :01:32.In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those
:01:33. > :01:37.priced out are choosing to move away.
:01:38. > :01:41.And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,
:01:42. > :01:44.who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.
:01:45. > :01:51.Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.
:01:52. > :01:54.And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:55. > :01:58.And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:01:59. > :02:00.At the current rate of Tory resignations,
:02:01. > :02:04.Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote
:02:05. > :02:07.address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.
:02:08. > :02:11.It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP
:02:12. > :02:15.defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and
:02:16. > :02:21.Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.
:02:22. > :02:28.Here's what the Prime Minister had to say
:02:29. > :02:40.These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and
:02:41. > :02:44.rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you
:02:45. > :02:47.want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain
:02:48. > :02:51.that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a
:02:52. > :02:53.Conservative government after the next election.
:02:54. > :03:01.And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.
:03:02. > :03:08.Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative
:03:09. > :03:12.colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping
:03:13. > :03:16.faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You
:03:17. > :03:20.heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was
:03:21. > :03:24.dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have
:03:25. > :03:28.increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour
:03:29. > :03:33.managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under
:03:34. > :03:37.Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my
:03:38. > :03:40.words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut
:03:41. > :03:45.immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to
:03:46. > :03:48.the community, particularly over house-building. The government has
:03:49. > :03:53.broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my
:03:54. > :03:59.voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to
:04:00. > :04:03.UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency
:04:04. > :04:07.chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and
:04:08. > :04:12.you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office
:04:13. > :04:17.telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the
:04:18. > :04:38.Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..
:04:39. > :04:43.So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham
:04:44. > :04:50.to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did
:04:51. > :04:55.you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually
:04:56. > :04:57.do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you
:04:58. > :05:01.cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a
:05:02. > :05:05.decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by
:05:06. > :05:11.UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a
:05:12. > :05:20.lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.
:05:21. > :05:26.That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this
:05:27. > :05:32.country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,
:05:33. > :05:37.quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.
:05:38. > :05:43.So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting
:05:44. > :05:46.UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number
:05:47. > :05:50.of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are
:05:51. > :05:53.winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned
:05:54. > :05:57.with the political class in Westminster, that they have not
:05:58. > :06:01.voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is
:06:02. > :06:06.inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the
:06:07. > :06:11.last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of
:06:12. > :06:14.life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.
:06:15. > :06:21.That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of
:06:22. > :06:26.change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My
:06:27. > :06:30.ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10
:06:31. > :06:34.as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David
:06:35. > :06:38.Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick
:06:39. > :06:42.Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and
:06:43. > :06:45.we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to
:06:46. > :06:51.pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to
:06:52. > :06:58.give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up
:06:59. > :07:07.for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the
:07:08. > :07:11.party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this
:07:12. > :07:17.is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you
:07:18. > :07:20.winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are
:07:21. > :07:26.frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to
:07:27. > :07:30.save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,
:07:31. > :07:34.you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in
:07:35. > :07:44.Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at
:07:45. > :07:48.MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their
:07:49. > :07:52.voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking
:07:53. > :07:56.permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe
:07:57. > :08:00.many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a
:08:01. > :08:03.Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to
:08:04. > :08:11.decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our
:08:12. > :08:14.country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and
:08:15. > :08:22.have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and
:08:23. > :08:26.honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my
:08:27. > :08:31.constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is
:08:32. > :08:35.the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and
:08:36. > :08:42.do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas
:08:43. > :08:44.Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for
:08:45. > :08:51.disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,
:08:52. > :08:54.the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was
:08:55. > :08:59.extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years
:09:00. > :09:02.ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit
:09:03. > :09:06.speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things
:09:07. > :09:11.there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at
:09:12. > :09:14.Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few
:09:15. > :09:18.ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just
:09:19. > :09:23.to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who
:09:24. > :09:30.believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,
:09:31. > :09:37.who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which
:09:38. > :09:40.has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,
:09:41. > :09:47.which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -
:09:48. > :09:50.after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David
:09:51. > :09:57.Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would
:09:58. > :10:00.you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP
:10:01. > :10:07.policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with
:10:08. > :10:13.immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will
:10:14. > :10:18.look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to
:10:19. > :10:31.restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How
:10:32. > :10:36.serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,
:10:37. > :10:40.destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is
:10:41. > :10:44.beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen
:10:45. > :10:49.eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing
:10:50. > :10:54.like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.
:10:55. > :10:58.There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis
:10:59. > :11:01.writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the
:11:02. > :11:05.first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used
:11:06. > :11:11.to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic
:11:12. > :11:16.in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some
:11:17. > :11:20.of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.
:11:21. > :11:23.There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the
:11:24. > :11:26.media problem of the general election which they cannot win if
:11:27. > :11:30.UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in
:11:31. > :11:32.many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does
:11:33. > :11:36.it make is the most pressing, which is, does
:11:37. > :11:41.Party to remain one party, or would it not be better for the hard-core
:11:42. > :11:48.of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics to essentially join UKIP or form
:11:49. > :11:52.their own party? At least the Conservatives would become more
:11:53. > :11:57.internally manageable. And probably lose the next election. Probably,
:11:58. > :12:03.yes. That is what you are advising them? If the reward is to have a
:12:04. > :12:07.coherent party in 15 years' time. It is just as well you are a
:12:08. > :12:12.columnist, not a party strategist. I was an anorak in the 1980s, who
:12:13. > :12:18.watched the Labour conference on the TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of
:12:19. > :12:22.course I was, that is how sad I am. But once again the crisis from UKIP
:12:23. > :12:26.has forced the Prime Minister to step in an even more Eurosceptic
:12:27. > :12:32.direction. Said on television what he was trying not to say, which is
:12:33. > :12:35.that if he does not get his way in the European negotiations, he will
:12:36. > :12:39.recommend to the British people that we should go. He began by saying, as
:12:40. > :12:44.I have always said, and when they say that, you know they are saying
:12:45. > :12:48.something new. He basically said, Britain should not stay if it is not
:12:49. > :12:54.in Britain's interests. I think this is big stakes for both the Tories
:12:55. > :13:00.and four UKIP. The Tories are able to write off Clacton. Rochester is
:13:01. > :13:05.number 271 on the UKIP friendly list. If the Tories win it, big
:13:06. > :13:07.moment for them. If UKIP lose it, this strategy of various will be
:13:08. > :13:19.facing a bit of a setback. To what extent are Mark Reckless's
:13:20. > :13:21.views shared by Conservative The Sunday Politics commissioned
:13:22. > :13:26.an exclusive poll of Conservative Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000
:13:27. > :13:31.councillors - that's almost an eighth of their
:13:32. > :13:46.council base - and Eleanor Garnier There is not a single party
:13:47. > :13:48.conference at the seaside this year, and Sunday Politics could not get
:13:49. > :13:53.through them all without a trip to the coast. So here we are on the
:13:54. > :13:58.shore in Sussex. There are plenty of Conservative councillors here, and
:13:59. > :14:03.Tory MPs as well, but one challenge they all face is UKIP, who have got
:14:04. > :14:08.their sights on coastal towns. Places like Worthing East and surer
:14:09. > :14:13.and, with high numbers of pensioners, providing rich pickings
:14:14. > :14:16.for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories run the county council, but UKIP are
:14:17. > :14:24.the official opposition, with ten councillors. We cannot lose any more
:14:25. > :14:28.ground to UKIP. If we lose any more ground, if you look at the way it
:14:29. > :14:31.has swung from us to them, it is getting near to being the middle
:14:32. > :14:37.point, where we might start losing seats which we have always regarded
:14:38. > :14:45.as safe seats. So, it has got to be stemmed, it cannot go any further.
:14:46. > :14:49.Our exclusive survey looked at the policy areas where the Conservatives
:14:50. > :14:53.are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU Referendum Bill is called tomorrow,
:14:54. > :14:57.45% say they would vote to leave, 39% would stay in. Asked about
:14:58. > :15:15.immigration... It was those issues, Europe and
:15:16. > :15:19.immigration, that Mark Reckless said were the head of his decision. I
:15:20. > :15:25.promised to cut immigration while treating people fairly and humanely.
:15:26. > :15:30.I cannot keep that promise as a Conservative, I can keep it as
:15:31. > :15:35.UKIP. When asked if Conservative councillors would like an electoral
:15:36. > :15:40.pact with UKIP in the run-up to the general election, one third said
:15:41. > :15:44.they support the idea. 63% are opposed and 7% don't know.
:15:45. > :15:51.Conservative councillors who left the party to join UKIP say it wasn't
:15:52. > :15:57.easy. I left because basically the Conservatives left me. I saw it as a
:15:58. > :16:03.difficult decision to change, but what I was seeing with UKIP was
:16:04. > :16:12.freed. Me being able to speak for my residents. Back to our survey and on
:16:13. > :16:19.climate change 49% said it was happening, but that humans are not
:16:20. > :16:24.to blame. Our survey showed that 60% think David Cameron was wrong to
:16:25. > :16:30.pursue legalising gay marriage, with 31% saying it was the right thing to
:16:31. > :16:35.do and 9% not sure. In Worthing councillors said gay marriage was
:16:36. > :16:42.divisive. That has really been an issue here, it might have damaged
:16:43. > :16:48.the party slightly, and I think in a way by setting a rule like that it
:16:49. > :16:54.is a very religious thing and it is almost trying to play God to make
:16:55. > :17:00.that decision. But some of the party's toughest decisions have been
:17:01. > :17:03.over the economy. 56% in our survey thought the spending cuts the
:17:04. > :17:11.Government has so far announced have not gone far enough. 6% were not
:17:12. > :17:16.sure. They are prepared for difficult decisions, but local
:17:17. > :17:22.activists say the party's voice must be clearer. I think the message has
:17:23. > :17:26.to be more forceful, it has to be specially targeted to the
:17:27. > :17:32.ex-Conservative voters who now vote UKIP, especially in this area, the
:17:33. > :17:36.vast majority of UKIP people are disillusioned Conservatives. The
:17:37. > :17:41.message has to be loud and strong, come back and we are the party to
:17:42. > :17:44.give you what you want. With just eight months until the general
:17:45. > :17:49.election, the pressure is on and local Conservatives are searching
:17:50. > :17:58.for clues to help their party stem the flow of defections. Joining me
:17:59. > :18:02.now is William Hague, the former Foreign Secretary and the Leader of
:18:03. > :18:06.the House of Commons. Tories like Mark Reckless are
:18:07. > :18:11.defecting to UKIP because they don't trust the party leadership to
:18:12. > :18:15.deliver on Europe, do they? They believe people like you and David
:18:16. > :18:22.Cameron will campaign to stay in and they are right. They said before
:18:23. > :18:25.they defected that people should vote Conservative to get a
:18:26. > :18:32.referendum on Europe, and that is right of course. The only way to get
:18:33. > :18:37.a referendum is to do that and this is the point, the people should
:18:38. > :18:41.decide. However a future government decides it will campaign, it should
:18:42. > :18:47.be the people of the country who decide. Can you say to our viewers
:18:48. > :18:51.this morning that is not enough powers are repatriated back to
:18:52. > :18:57.Britain, you would want to come out, can you say that? Our objective
:18:58. > :19:01.is to get those powers and stay in. The answer to the question is I
:19:02. > :19:07.won't be deciding, David Cameron won't be deciding, you the voters
:19:08. > :19:13.will be deciding. But you have to give us your view. If you don't get
:19:14. > :19:19.enough powers back, would you vote to come out and recommended? Our
:19:20. > :19:23.objective is to get those powers and be able to stay in. You just get
:19:24. > :19:28.endless speculation years in advance. I will decide at the time
:19:29. > :19:34.how I will vote. Surely that is the rational position for everyone to
:19:35. > :19:39.take but I want a referendum to take place. I understand that. As you
:19:40. > :19:44.pointed out to Mark Reckless just now, unless there is a Conservative
:19:45. > :19:52.government, people won't have that choice. Under a Labour government
:19:53. > :19:56.they will not get a choice at all. Our survey of Tory councillors shows
:19:57. > :20:04.that almost 50% would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. I think it
:20:05. > :20:07.showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but again, I'm pretty sure they will
:20:08. > :20:13.decide at the time. They will want to see what a future government
:20:14. > :20:18.achieves in a renegotiation before they decide what to vote in a
:20:19. > :20:22.referendum. Unless David Cameron is Prime Minister and there is a
:20:23. > :20:31.Conservative government, there will not be a renegotiation. That is a
:20:32. > :20:34.point you have made four times. I think they have got it. Your Cabinet
:20:35. > :20:37.colleague says we should not be scared of quitting the EU, but you
:20:38. > :20:42.went native in the Foreign Office, didn't you? You used to be a
:20:43. > :20:49.Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign Office line man. No, I don't think
:20:50. > :20:54.so! We brought back the first reduced European budget ever in
:20:55. > :21:01.history. Even Margaret Thatcher .. Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't
:21:02. > :21:05.it? Not much scares me after 26 years in politics but we want to do
:21:06. > :21:13.the best thing for the country. Where we scared when we got us out
:21:14. > :21:18.of liability for Eurozone bailouts? We were not scared of anybody.
:21:19. > :21:23.People said we couldn't achieve things but we negotiated these
:21:24. > :21:31.things. We can do that with a wider negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless
:21:32. > :21:36.says he cannot keep the Conservative promise to tackle immigration. You
:21:37. > :21:50.have failed to keep your promise to keep net immigration down. You
:21:51. > :22:06.promised to cut it below 100,00 , you failed. It is over 200,000
:22:07. > :22:15.people. We have cut it from 250 000 in 2005, the last figures were
:22:16. > :22:21.240,000. I think we can file that under F four failed. It includes
:22:22. > :22:28.students, we want them in the country. You knew that when you made
:22:29. > :22:33.the promise. But has it come down? Yes, it has. Have we stopped
:22:34. > :22:37.the promise. But has it come down? coming here because of our benefit
:22:38. > :22:43.system? Yes. None of that happened under Labour. If Mark Reckless had
:22:44. > :22:47.his way, it would be more likely we would have a Labour government. They
:22:48. > :22:53.have an open door policy on immigration. You are not just losing
:22:54. > :22:59.MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters. Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows
:23:00. > :23:02.that 20% of people who voted Tory in 2010 have abandoned youth and three
:23:03. > :23:09.quarters of them are voting UKIP now. We will see in the general
:23:10. > :23:15.election. Politics is very fluid in this country and we shouldn't deny
:23:16. > :23:19.that in any way but UKIP thought they were going to win the
:23:20. > :23:24.by-election in Newark, we had a thumping Conservative victory, and I
:23:25. > :23:28.think opinion polls are snapshots of opinion now. They are not forecast
:23:29. > :23:34.of the general election and we will be doing everything we can to get
:23:35. > :23:37.our message across. Today we are announcing 3 million more
:23:38. > :23:41.apprenticeships in the next Parliament. I think this is what
:23:42. > :23:49.people will be voting on, rather than who has defected. Your activist
:23:50. > :23:54.base once parked with UKIP. Our survey shows a third of Tory
:23:55. > :24:01.councillors would like a formal pact with UKIP. Why not? It shows two
:24:02. > :24:09.thirds are against it. No, it shows one third want it. I read the
:24:10. > :24:16.figures, it showed 67% don't want it. We are not going to make a pact
:24:17. > :24:23.with other parties, and they don't work in the British electoral system
:24:24. > :24:28.even if they were desirable. You are sharing the Cabinet committee on
:24:29. > :24:32.English votes for English laws. Is further devolution for Scotland
:24:33. > :24:36.conditional on progress towards English devolution? No, the
:24:37. > :24:41.commitment to Scotland is unconditional. We will meet the
:24:42. > :24:44.commitments to Scotland but we believe, we the Conservatives
:24:45. > :24:48.believe, that in tandem with that we have to resolve these questions
:24:49. > :24:53.about fairness to the rest of the UK as well. That will depend on other
:24:54. > :24:59.parties or the general election result. Are you committed to the
:25:00. > :25:04.Gordon Brown timetable? Yes, absolutely. So you are committed to
:25:05. > :25:08.producing draft legislation by Burns night, that is at the end of
:25:09. > :25:15.January. Will you produce proposals for English votes on English laws by
:25:16. > :25:22.then? We will, but whether they are agreed across the parties will
:25:23. > :25:28.depend on the other parties. There was no sign that they were agreeable
:25:29. > :25:33.at the Labour conference. We will produce our ideas on the same
:25:34. > :25:37.timetable as the timetable for Scottish devolution. You will
:25:38. > :25:43.therefore bring forward proposals for English votes for English laws
:25:44. > :25:47.by the end of January? Yes. And will you attempt to get them on the
:25:48. > :25:51.statute book before the election? The commitment in Scotland is to
:25:52. > :25:57.legislate after the election. You will publish a bill beforehand? We
:25:58. > :26:03.will publish proposals beforehand. I don't exclude doing something before
:26:04. > :26:07.the election, but the Scottish timetable is to legislate for the
:26:08. > :26:12.further devolution after the general election, whoever wins the election.
:26:13. > :26:19.Have you given thought as to what English votes for English laws would
:26:20. > :26:24.mean? I have thought a lot of it over 15 years. I am not going to
:26:25. > :26:29.prejudge what the outcome will be, but it does mean in essence that
:26:30. > :26:34.when decisions are taken, decisions that only affect England or only
:26:35. > :26:38.England and Wales, then only the MPs from England and Wales should be
:26:39. > :26:43.making those decisions. You can achieve that in many different
:26:44. > :26:49.ways. Is that it for English devolution, is that what it amounts
:26:50. > :26:53.to? That is devolution to England if you like, but within England there
:26:54. > :26:58.is a lot of other devolution going on and we might well want to extend
:26:59. > :27:03.that further. We have given more freedom to local authorities, there
:27:04. > :27:07.is a lot of scope to do more of that, but that in itself is not the
:27:08. > :27:16.answer to the problem of what happens at Westminster. You haven't
:27:17. > :27:21.just given Scotland more devolution or planned to do it, you have also
:27:22. > :27:26.enshrined the Barnett formula and that seems to be in perpetuity. It
:27:27. > :27:31.is widely regarded as being unfair to Wales and many of the poorer
:27:32. > :27:34.English regions. Why do you perpetuate it? It will become less
:27:35. > :27:43.relevant overtime if more tax-raising powers... It goes all
:27:44. > :27:47.the way back to the 1970s, we made a commitment on that, we will keep our
:27:48. > :27:55.commitments to Scotland as more -- but as more tax-raising powers
:27:56. > :28:00.devolved, the Barnett formula is less significant. If you transfer ?5
:28:01. > :28:05.billion of tax-raising powers to Scotland, 5 billion comes off the
:28:06. > :28:11.Barnett formula? It will be a lot more complicated than that, but yes,
:28:12. > :28:16.as their own decisions about taxation are made, the grand from
:28:17. > :28:19.Westminster will go down. And you can guarantee that if there is a
:28:20. > :28:25.majority Conservative government, there will be English votes for
:28:26. > :28:29.English laws after the election Yes, I stress again that there are
:28:30. > :28:33.different ways of doing it but if there is no cross-party agreement on
:28:34. > :28:38.that, the Conservatives will produce our proposals and campaign for them
:28:39. > :28:40.in the general election. Don't go away because I want to move on to
:28:41. > :28:46.some other matters. Now to the fight against so-called
:28:47. > :28:48.Islamic State terrorists. Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried
:28:49. > :28:51.out their first flights over Iraq since MPs gave their approval for
:28:52. > :29:00.air-strikes against the militants. When you face a situation with
:29:01. > :29:04.psychobabble -- psychopathic killers who have already brutally beheaded
:29:05. > :29:09.one of our own citizens, who have already launched and tried to
:29:10. > :29:13.execute plots in our own country to maim innocent people, we have a
:29:14. > :29:17.choice - we can either stand back from this and say it is too
:29:18. > :29:23.difficult, let's let someone else try to keep our country safe, or we
:29:24. > :29:26.take the correct decision to have a full, comprehensive strategy but
:29:27. > :29:29.let's be prepared to play our role to make sure these people cannot do
:29:30. > :29:33.not trust harm. And William Hague is still with me -
:29:34. > :29:47.until July he was, of course, Why have only six Tornado jets being
:29:48. > :29:51.mobilised? Do not assume that is all that will be taking part in this
:29:52. > :29:55.operation. That is all that has been announced and I do not think we
:29:56. > :30:01.should speculate. Even the Danes are sending more fighter jets. There is
:30:02. > :30:05.no restriction in the House of Commons resolution passed on Friday
:30:06. > :30:10.on what we can do. So why so little? Do not underestimate what
:30:11. > :30:14.our Tornados can do. They have some unique capabilities, capabilities
:30:15. > :30:19.which have been specifically asked for by our allies. When you are on
:30:20. > :30:23.the wrong end of six Tornados, it will not feel like a small effort.
:30:24. > :30:28.But there will be other things which can add to that effort. We are
:30:29. > :30:32.joining in a month after the operation started, we are late, we
:30:33. > :30:38.are behind America, France, Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain,
:30:39. > :30:43.Qatar, one hand tied behind our backs cause of the rule about not
:30:44. > :30:48.attacking Syria - why is the British government leading from behind?
:30:49. > :30:50.First of all, we are a democratic country, and you know all about
:30:51. > :30:55.Parliamentary approval. You could have recalled parliament. We have
:30:56. > :31:00.done that, with a political consensus. Other European countries
:31:01. > :31:04.also took the decision on Friday to send their military assets. Our
:31:05. > :31:09.allies are absolutely content with that, and Britain will play an
:31:10. > :31:13.important role, along with many other nations, including Arab
:31:14. > :31:20.nations. General Sir David Richards Sheriff, who just steps down as the
:31:21. > :31:24.Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he condemns the spineless lack of
:31:25. > :31:29.leadership and the absence of any credible strategy. It is
:31:30. > :31:36.embarrassing,isn't it? Of course, they turn into armchair generals. We
:31:37. > :31:41.are playing an important role, we are a democratic country. Your
:31:42. > :31:46.viewers will remember, we had a vote last year on military action in
:31:47. > :31:50.Syria and we were defeated in the House of Commons, a bad moment for
:31:51. > :31:53.our foreign policy. We have taken care to bring this forward when we
:31:54. > :32:01.can win a vote in the House of Commons, and that is how we will
:32:02. > :32:05.proceed. The air Chief Marshal until recently in charge of the RAF, he
:32:06. > :32:12.says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq but not Syria. He calls the decision
:32:13. > :32:17.ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make sense to bomb Iraq, because the
:32:18. > :32:24.Iraqi government has asked for our assistance. This came up a lot in
:32:25. > :32:29.the debate on Friday, and the Prime Minister explained, similar to what
:32:30. > :32:34.I have just been saying, that there is not a political consensus about
:32:35. > :32:38.Syria in the House of Commons. When we did it last year, we were
:32:39. > :32:41.defeated, and it was described by all commentators as a huge blow to
:32:42. > :32:47.the government and to our foreign policy. So, we will bring forward
:32:48. > :32:51.proposals when there is a majority in this country to do so in the
:32:52. > :32:59.House of Commons. Professor Michael Clarke, one of the world top experts
:33:00. > :33:02.on military strategy and history, he says there are very few important IS
:33:03. > :33:07.targets in northern Iraq, that they are all in Syria, and we are
:33:08. > :33:11.limiting ourselves to the periphery of the campaign. First of all, just
:33:12. > :33:15.because you are not doing everything does not mean you should not do
:33:16. > :33:18.something. Secondly, the United States and other countries are
:33:19. > :33:23.engaged in the action against targets in Syria. This is a
:33:24. > :33:28.coalition effort, with people doing different things. Thirdly, if we
:33:29. > :33:32.were to put their proposal to the House of Commons tomorrow, and it
:33:33. > :33:37.was defeated, we would not have achieved a great deal. You do not
:33:38. > :33:40.know it would have been defeated. The Labour Party has given no
:33:41. > :33:46.indication they would have supported that. So, you are hostage to the
:33:47. > :33:50.Labour Party? We have to win a democratic vote in the House of
:33:51. > :33:55.Commons, and the Labour Party is a very large part of the House of
:33:56. > :34:00.Commons. You are asking us to pursue a policy which at the moment could
:34:01. > :34:03.be defeated in Parliament. Is it not embarrassing to be on the wrong side
:34:04. > :34:08.of so many of these military experts? Why should we trust the
:34:09. > :34:16.judgment of here today, gone tomorrow, politicians? We have the
:34:17. > :34:19.military experts with us now. We have a national security council, we
:34:20. > :34:23.do not have sofa government, unlike the last government. The national
:34:24. > :34:29.security council is chaired by the Prime Minister. Alongside the Chief
:34:30. > :34:36.of Defence Staff and the heads of the intelligence agencies. And we
:34:37. > :34:41.take decisions together with the people who have the information
:34:42. > :34:46.now. So, you will know what British and American intelligence says about
:34:47. > :34:49.Syria. The Prime Minister has said there is a danger that the
:34:50. > :34:53.British-born jihadists will come back and attack us. But the
:34:54. > :34:58.intelligence reports which you will have seen are clear - Al-Qaeda and
:34:59. > :35:04.its associates are selecting, indoctrinating and training
:35:05. > :35:07.jihadists in Syria, not Iraq. Does that not make the Syrian exclusion
:35:08. > :35:14.even more ludicrous? I cannot comment on intelligence. Is the
:35:15. > :35:21.situation in Syria I direct threat to this country? Yes, it is. Have we
:35:22. > :35:25.excluded action? No, we haven't Could you come back to the House?
:35:26. > :35:30.The Prime Minister said, it was in the motion put to the House of
:35:31. > :35:34.Commons, that if we want to take action in Syria, we will come back
:35:35. > :35:39.to the House of Commons. But we have not taken any decision about that
:35:40. > :35:43.and we would not do so if we thought we were going to be defeated again.
:35:44. > :35:50.The government supports US strikes on Syria, show you must relieve they
:35:51. > :35:54.are legal. Either way the legal basis differs from one country to
:35:55. > :36:00.another, according to their reading of international law. But you have
:36:01. > :36:03.supported it. We do believe that they and Arab countries are taking
:36:04. > :36:11.action legally and we support their action. But I understand your
:36:12. > :36:18.legitimate questions. But it comes back to your basic question, why in
:36:19. > :36:22.Iraq and not Syria. Nonetheless it is important to take action in
:36:23. > :36:27.Iraq. We are also engaged in Syria in building up the political
:36:28. > :36:32.strength of the more moderate opposition and in trying to bring
:36:33. > :36:40.about a peace agreement, and we do not exclude action in Syria in the
:36:41. > :36:43.future. If we propose doing something, then we ask for the
:36:44. > :36:48.specific legal advice. Why would you not ask for the legal advice
:36:49. > :36:53.anyway? Because you have to be sure of the legal advice at the time and
:36:54. > :36:58.also we do not comment on the advice given to us by the Law officers Mr
:36:59. > :37:03.Blair ended up publishing his. That was because there was a huge legal
:37:04. > :37:08.dispute. So you have not had legal advice yet that Britain attacking
:37:09. > :37:11.Syria would be legal? The legal situation is unlikely to be the
:37:12. > :37:16.barrier in this case, let me put it that way. Within international law,
:37:17. > :37:24.you can act in the event of extreme humanitarian distress and elective
:37:25. > :37:27.self-defence, so one can imagine strong legal justification, but of
:37:28. > :37:29.course, we will take the legal advice at the time.
:37:30. > :37:34.watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who
:37:35. > :37:39.Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.
:37:40. > :37:43.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics East, I'm Stewart White.
:37:44. > :37:45.Today, at the start of the Conservatives Party
:37:46. > :37:48.conference, one of our MPs has been forced to resign as a minister.
:37:49. > :37:50.Brooks Newmark, the MP for Braintree,
:37:51. > :37:53.is standing down as the Minhster for Civil Society after alldgations
:37:54. > :38:01.From Birmingham, we'll be speaking to the MP for Great Yarmouth
:38:02. > :38:04.and Local Government Ministdr Brandon Lewis about the Torx record
:38:05. > :38:09.And of course UKIP have been holding their conference in Doncastdr.
:38:10. > :38:12.We now know Douglas Carswell, who defected from the Conservatives
:38:13. > :38:26.a couple of weeks ago, has been joined by another.
:38:27. > :38:28.But let's start at the Tory party conferencd, where
:38:29. > :38:31.they were hoping that David Cameron would be able to set out his
:38:32. > :38:35.But of course it's not that easy, the party is making
:38:36. > :38:37.the headlines this morning for all the wrong reasons.
:38:38. > :38:40.And one of our MPs is right at the heart of them.
:38:41. > :38:50.A few minutes ago I spoke to Andrew Sinclair in Birmingh`m.
:38:51. > :38:56.You can't have a worse start to a party conference, people I have
:38:57. > :39:02.spoken to today are spitting blood over Mark Reckless has decided to
:39:03. > :39:05.join Douglas Carswell and join UKIP. When you ask about Brooks Ndwmark
:39:06. > :39:10.they shake their head in disbelief. Looks Newmark issued a statdment
:39:11. > :39:14.saying he was standing down as minister because story in the Sunday
:39:15. > :39:19.Mirror and he pledged his continued support to the government. He called
:39:20. > :39:22.one of my colleagues that hd has been very foolish and he is sorry.
:39:23. > :39:30.This brings to an end a verx brief career for Brooks Newmark as a
:39:31. > :39:34.minister for civil society. He upset several charities this month when he
:39:35. > :39:40.called them to stick to knitting and stay out of politics. Will he stay
:39:41. > :39:46.on as an MP? The expectation is that he will. This is embarrassing for
:39:47. > :39:50.him but he has not broken any laws. He is highly regarded at Westminster
:39:51. > :39:54.as an expert in economics and Middle East affairs, he also rather
:39:55. > :39:59.ironically played a very big role in encouraging more women into
:40:00. > :40:04.politics. He will keep his head down for a few weeks but he will not go.
:40:05. > :40:06.Our studio guests this mornhng, George Nobbs,
:40:07. > :40:11.the Labour leader of Norfolk Council and Tim Aker, one of our UKHP MEPs.
:40:12. > :40:19.You have had some defections, do you have any more coming? We will see.
:40:20. > :40:25.We might have a few surprisds here and there. We are the party changing
:40:26. > :40:30.politics. What a couple of lonths we have had. We are going into a series
:40:31. > :40:32.of by`elections where we ard looking to win in Clacton and Hayward and
:40:33. > :40:38.Middleton is scaring the Labour Party. We are read could have on the
:40:39. > :40:44.country and it is a good tile to be in UKIP. You say you are ch`nging
:40:45. > :40:47.politics but what happened hn Clacton was traditional all style
:40:48. > :40:51.politics you got rid of your local candidate and stuck in someone else.
:40:52. > :40:58.An MP stood on a point of principle and rather than defect and stay the
:40:59. > :41:02.let the people decide. Mark Reckless is now doing the noble thing,
:41:03. > :41:07.letting the people decide as that is what drives UKIP. George Nobbs it is
:41:08. > :41:12.not a great start for the Tory party conference. In fairness the new ``
:41:13. > :41:19.the Labour Party conference was not a great success. I thought that was
:41:20. > :41:22.quite good. I must say, be fair I think the winner out of the
:41:23. > :41:27.conference season without any doubt is Nigel Farage, to produce a rabbit
:41:28. > :41:32.out of a hat like that was brilliant and let's not be churlish about it
:41:33. > :41:38.he has done very well. That is all style politics, isn't it? It is a
:41:39. > :41:43.sign that the Conservative Party is imploding. It reminds me of the last
:41:44. > :41:47.days of John Major when Labour MPs were all, sorry, Conservative MPs
:41:48. > :41:51.were defecting to Labour. Wd will speak more in a while.
:41:52. > :41:53.The Conservatives were hoping for a clear run this week to
:41:54. > :41:56.highlight what they have achieved over the last four years.
:41:57. > :41:58.So with a by`election just days away, what have they done
:41:59. > :42:02.On our roads, the A11 is nearly finished, but
:42:03. > :42:06.There have been constant delays to the plan to improve the A14
:42:07. > :42:09.The coalition scrapped the hdea then proposed a toll road
:42:10. > :42:14.It should get started after the election next year.
:42:15. > :42:16.And despite lobbying from MPs there has been little
:42:17. > :42:28.improvement to the A120 in Dssex and the A47 in Norfolk.
:42:29. > :42:35.If the a 47 does not get improved then obviously for a wholly based in
:42:36. > :42:38.King 's Lynn it's just makes it more and more difficult to make dnds
:42:39. > :42:42.On the trains, the way the government handled the biddhng
:42:43. > :42:45.process for the West Coast lainline meant there were delays in `warding
:42:46. > :42:47.the long term franchises. And that means despite various manifdstos and
:42:48. > :42:50.summits there is still no improvement to the line between
:42:51. > :42:53.London and Norwich. There are promises to improve the Ely
:42:54. > :42:56.junction, with the help of loney from Europe, but work won't start
:42:57. > :42:59.for another couple of years. And no sign yet of a faster servicd on the
:43:00. > :43:02.West Anglia line from Stansted through Essex. And when it comes to
:43:03. > :43:05.airports, the question of c`pacity in the southeast still hasn't been
:43:06. > :43:07.answered. Even on broadband, where there have been improvements it s
:43:08. > :43:10.still not enough. Only this week a delegation went to Westminster to
:43:11. > :43:29.get things moving much quicker, especially in country areas.
:43:30. > :43:36.The holiday homes here take a huge number of bookings to the Internet,
:43:37. > :43:41.I know that one lost their operation for two days at the hat to relocate
:43:42. > :43:46.their operation to one of the colleges. This is thousands of
:43:47. > :43:50.pounds worth of lost revenud. Questions for Brandon Lewis, the
:43:51. > :43:52.local government and Communhties Minister responsible for hotsing and
:43:53. > :43:58.planning at the MP for great Yarmouth. I spoke to him a while ago
:43:59. > :44:02.and put it to him that therd has been a promise to sort out for the
:44:03. > :44:07.last four years broadband and it still is not any better. Thd speed
:44:08. > :44:12.of superfast broadband is moving right across the country, it is the
:44:13. > :44:15.nominal. It is moving on a week by week but there are areas whdre we
:44:16. > :44:20.have some real difficulties in how we get broadband out there, how to
:44:21. > :44:26.get the lines out there to lake them work for everyone in rural `reas.
:44:27. > :44:32.How long will this take? We always aim to have superfast broadband is
:44:33. > :44:36.widely available, 80 or 90% of the population by next year. We are
:44:37. > :44:41.working to deliver that. But looking to what is coming next. I mdt with
:44:42. > :44:44.suppliers last week to see how we make sure that new housing
:44:45. > :44:50.development have superfast broadband available on day one. Let's talk
:44:51. > :44:53.about the roads, the A14 has been a mess as far as the government has
:44:54. > :45:01.been concern, still nothing on the a 47? When can we expect things like
:45:02. > :45:05.that? We have a phenomenal success and I am proud to work with a team
:45:06. > :45:09.from members of Parliament from across Norfolk and Cambridgdshire
:45:10. > :45:13.and Southwark. We have the ` 11 committed very early on and we are
:45:14. > :45:19.going to benefit from that hn the formal finishing is just a few weeks
:45:20. > :45:26.away. We have the a 47 to work for in the a 47 must be the next big
:45:27. > :45:31.target. We want to get access for businesses. It is something that has
:45:32. > :45:37.been on the table for a long time and residents will be frustrated,
:45:38. > :45:41.Labour took it off the list in 005. We are working to get it back on the
:45:42. > :45:45.agenda. We can both agree that we need it but you have been in office
:45:46. > :45:52.for four years and it has not been back on the table and we have no
:45:53. > :45:54.start date. The a 47 is back on the table, Labour took it off and
:45:55. > :45:59.downgraded the road back into a thousand five, 2006, so it was not
:46:00. > :46:05.on the table at all, the Department for Transport made it clear that the
:46:06. > :46:09.see it as a key opportunity, part of a core strategy going forward. We
:46:10. > :46:14.are in a better place. We h`ve an ordinance statement and the budget
:46:15. > :46:16.coming and a general election. I am confident that a cross`partx
:46:17. > :46:20.coalition across Norfolk and Cambridge are working together will
:46:21. > :46:26.be able to get the right result for the a 47. In one word, will be ``
:46:27. > :46:32.will this be in the Autumn statement? You will have to ask the
:46:33. > :46:35.Chancellor. It is never good to try and prejudge what the Chancdllor
:46:36. > :46:41.will do ahead of the Autumn statement. We will make the case for
:46:42. > :46:46.him and the Department for Transport, who are clear th`t they
:46:47. > :46:48.do support the endeavour. The government is making massivd
:46:49. > :46:54.investments in infrastructure across the country and we want the a 4 on
:46:55. > :46:58.this list and get it going. Can I ask you about the messy start to
:46:59. > :47:05.your conference season? You have had this defection and you have the
:47:06. > :47:09.Brooks Newmark study,... Yot must bear in mind we have the
:47:10. > :47:16.announcement of the rent to buy programme, and fantastic news that
:47:17. > :47:22.we are lodging 100,000 new homes, come on! Sorry to interrupt You
:47:23. > :47:28.know I am asking about the other things, do not give me all of that.
:47:29. > :47:32.Far more people in great Yarmouth and Norfolk will benefit from
:47:33. > :47:38.100,000 start homes, we must be very clear that the situation dods not
:47:39. > :47:41.make sense. Even in the last few days, to get an EU referendtm to let
:47:42. > :47:44.people have their chance, h`ve their say on whether they want to be in or
:47:45. > :47:50.out we need a Conservative government. There is only one way
:47:51. > :47:55.for a referendum and that is to vote Conservative. And the Brooks Newmark
:47:56. > :47:59.situation? I think he has bden very clear, he has apologised and
:48:00. > :48:06.resigned and he and his famhly needs the time to move on and movd
:48:07. > :48:10.forward. Thank you very much. Can I ask you just a little bit
:48:11. > :48:14.about what you think the Tories have achieved as far as he roads have
:48:15. > :48:18.concerned? The a 11 was a L`bour plan but the Tories have done it.
:48:19. > :48:25.They have done the final bit and that is very good but the a 47 is
:48:26. > :48:29.essential to the economy of not just Norfolk but the whole of East
:48:30. > :48:36.Anglia. We get promise after promise. That is not just a Tory
:48:37. > :48:39.thing, promise after promisd happened in the Labour
:48:40. > :48:42.administration. All central government failed to recognhse the
:48:43. > :48:47.importance of East Anglia and this is another reason why we nedd some
:48:48. > :48:50.more devolution. We know better in East Anglia how to spend money on
:48:51. > :48:54.infrastructure than MPs in Westminster and government
:48:55. > :49:01.departments. He wants to ch`nge politics? You want politics to be
:49:02. > :49:03.different, like UKIP say? Both are dissatisfied with the way that the
:49:04. > :49:09.Conservative government runs this country and it is London centric,
:49:10. > :49:13.and the problems `` and the provinces of England are ignored.
:49:14. > :49:19.The idea that the decision should be made by all the MPs sitting on it is
:49:20. > :49:22.the afternoon is nonsense. The problem is that decisions are made
:49:23. > :49:28.centrally and they should bd taken when the influence real people.
:49:29. > :49:34.Temme, you would cut taxes but how did you pay roads? If you look at EU
:49:35. > :49:39.contributions, ?55 million per day in foreign aid going to 11 billion.
:49:40. > :49:46.He would cut foreign aid? Wd would cut it a substantial amount. There
:49:47. > :49:49.is a small fraction of that foreign aid budget that is actually spent on
:49:50. > :49:53.inoculations and clean water. We would keep that, the good ehght but
:49:54. > :49:59.the aid that goes missing, why are we doing it? We would take the tax
:50:00. > :50:05.burden off the coolest people and make sure we get our priorities
:50:06. > :50:09.right. This is long`term pl`nning. This is crucial with the ro`ds. The
:50:10. > :50:12.Tories said they would get immigration down to the tens of
:50:13. > :50:16.thousands but it is in the puarters of a million. How can anyond plan
:50:17. > :50:21.with infrastructure when thdy do not know how many people will come to
:50:22. > :50:26.use the roads? Until you control your borders you cannot plan
:50:27. > :50:31.infrastructure. I want rows for prosperity, not as a means of
:50:32. > :50:35.cutting immigration. I was saying `` I was not saying that. As a matter
:50:36. > :50:38.of planning you must make stre you know who will use the roads and
:50:39. > :50:41.ready population centres will be so you can make a long`term pl`nning
:50:42. > :50:48.and investment decisions. Thank you very much. Let's talk now about the
:50:49. > :50:56.UKIP conference in Doncaster, with another UKIP MP joining the party.
:50:57. > :51:03.The party wants to show it can be responsible. It has more th`n 1 0
:51:04. > :51:08.council in many parts of thd region the UK Independence party is very
:51:09. > :51:11.much part of local politics. Nightly battle in a couple of UKIP
:51:12. > :51:16.councillors are meeting with a member of the local residents
:51:17. > :51:24.Association. We feel that wd are open to any opportunity, anx
:51:25. > :51:28.opportunist developer who pops up on the green belt and that is ` concern
:51:29. > :51:34.to us. Basildon Council havd not got their strategy in place. With 1
:51:35. > :51:39.councillors in Basildon UKIP is the second`largest party here at the
:51:40. > :51:43.wicket has been a steep curve. We are effectively 12 disparatd people
:51:44. > :51:47.who need to start blending together to work out what we are going to do
:51:48. > :51:50.and how we are going to do ht. We have good ideas and we are there to
:51:51. > :51:56.represent the views and concerns and wishes and interests of the people.
:51:57. > :52:01.At times it has been confushng. The party does not tell its councils how
:52:02. > :52:03.to vote but that meant therd was embarrassment and anger in some UKIP
:52:04. > :52:10.councillors in Basildon orddred against a UKIP policy to abolish the
:52:11. > :52:17.Cabinet system. We do not h`ve a whip system. That is a double edged
:52:18. > :52:20.sword. If you have a policy which is a UKIP policy and you have
:52:21. > :52:25.campaigned on this then unldss you actually have your constitudnts
:52:26. > :52:29.saying we do not like that policy then you should go along with it. I
:52:30. > :52:35.do not think some of the people actually realise that at thd time.
:52:36. > :52:39.The party has a notable presence on several authorities, they are part
:52:40. > :52:43.of the rainbow coalition running Norfolk County Council and xet every
:52:44. > :52:46.few months there seems to bd some sort of controversy involving a UKIP
:52:47. > :52:50.counsellor. Most appear to be hard`working but the other parties
:52:51. > :52:54.often complain that they ard about lightweight. They are nice people.
:52:55. > :52:57.They are nice people. Jack Whitehall. You have simplistic
:52:58. > :53:02.solutions to companies with questions. Then cancelled you must
:53:03. > :53:07.understand the belief, you have to put meat on the bones and you have
:53:08. > :53:10.to follow these things throtgh. You have to understand the procdss and
:53:11. > :53:16.come up with solutions. Thex do not. They are always looking for a simple
:53:17. > :53:21.answer. Nigel Farage does not seem worried. He said UKIP counchllors
:53:22. > :53:25.are making local politics rdlevant. Most of these councillors h`ve only
:53:26. > :53:31.been on councils for a year. My advice to every UKIP counsellor was
:53:32. > :53:38.do not run before you can w`lk. Find your feet. That actually applies to
:53:39. > :53:41.politicians from all parties. One of the problems is that your
:53:42. > :53:44.councillors are not whipped so in Basildon you see them voting against
:53:45. > :53:49.each other. That is confusing for the public. If we are going to
:53:50. > :53:55.introduce the idea that elected people should have the own lind on
:53:56. > :53:58.hanging or abortion or bypasses or whatever else it is that is a darn
:53:59. > :54:03.sight healthier than the whhp system we have seen in politics coling from
:54:04. > :54:05.this place which is frankly with her members of Parliament and m`ny
:54:06. > :54:11.councillors nothing more th`n ciphers. Nigel Farage received a
:54:12. > :54:15.standing ovation as he arrived at a public meeting in Clacton. Xou can
:54:16. > :54:18.see the large turnout is proof that people are prepared to take them
:54:19. > :54:24.seriously. The other parties hope this is all short lived. It is a
:54:25. > :54:29.protest vote, I am not complacent, it is a strong movement, but the
:54:30. > :54:32.general election will be about the economy and about who is thd best
:54:33. > :54:37.reader and I think David Caleron wins on both of those scores. UKIP
:54:38. > :54:40.believe the public are lookhng for something different. They mhght
:54:41. > :54:47.still be finding their feet but they believe they are here to st`y.
:54:48. > :54:51.Tim, you really do have to have a policy and stick to it if you are a
:54:52. > :54:55.party, don't you? You can't have only one voting is they want. Isn't
:54:56. > :55:00.it incredible that we actually have people who discuss and debate things
:55:01. > :55:06.in their groups? And do what residents want. People are sick of
:55:07. > :55:08.the old politics of party m`nagers are whipping their representatives
:55:09. > :55:12.to do what they say and thex all look and sound the same. With UKIP
:55:13. > :55:16.it is different which is whx we are getting excellent results in
:55:17. > :55:21.Basildon, Southend, Castle point, the Rock, elsewhere. You will know
:55:22. > :55:25.that if you have a policy and do not stick to it you have broken your
:55:26. > :55:30.promise to the people who vote for you. With reference to the Basildon
:55:31. > :55:33.thing... In any council! Thd majority of Basildon Council has
:55:34. > :55:39.voted for this and I am surd it will go back. We are the only party who
:55:40. > :55:43.wanted a proper recall mech`nism so the people if they see their
:55:44. > :55:47.representative has gotten b`ck on their promises can initiate a
:55:48. > :55:51.by`election. But what we got from the Tories was what had down. They
:55:52. > :55:55.say that MPs should be the one to judge whether MPs have brokdn
:55:56. > :56:01.promises. That is a stitch tp which is why people are coming to UKIP.
:56:02. > :56:05.You have worked with UKIP on Norfolk County Council. Yes we have. We
:56:06. > :56:09.profoundly disagree on national policy, UKIP and I, but we
:56:10. > :56:13.profoundly disagree with other parties, greens and liberals, and
:56:14. > :56:16.they with each other. On Norfolk County Council we believe wd should
:56:17. > :56:23.work together for the benefht of the people of Norfolk. Do you think they
:56:24. > :56:30.have been whipped to agree with you or not? Now, I know they have not.
:56:31. > :56:33.They concede the logic of a sensible argument. We have so many problems
:56:34. > :56:38.left as a specialist childrdn's services and we have to work
:56:39. > :56:42.together and leave ideology aside and look for what is best for the
:56:43. > :56:46.people of Norfolk. We will continue doing this. You have been in
:56:47. > :56:50.politics a few years. It must be very difficult for you to work out
:56:51. > :56:54.how you deal with the party that does not have a party mechanism
:56:55. > :57:00.working as far as whipping hs concerned. It is very difficult but
:57:01. > :57:05.then, the Green Grid do not have that system either. And the Liberals
:57:06. > :57:09.do not have that system, thd Labour Party is the only one of thd four
:57:10. > :57:13.that actually has a whipping system. Fortunately if the issue was a
:57:14. > :57:18.simple one, what is the best policy for the people of Norfolk, we can
:57:19. > :57:23.just come to that agreement and do it. The great thing about what we
:57:24. > :57:27.have done this that all four parties and two independents work together.
:57:28. > :57:32.One party that was once in power does not want to work with `nybody
:57:33. > :57:36.else. That is how it works. The Labour Party said that you `re OK on
:57:37. > :57:40.simple issues. You see if it is something simple you can work
:57:41. > :57:44.together. Common`sense ideas that can benefit the people. You have
:57:45. > :57:50.seen in Norfolk how it can work We will speak more later. Let's hope it
:57:51. > :57:51.stays fine for the people in Southend. This is our round`up of
:57:52. > :58:06.the week in 60 seconds. Another deluge disaster, part of
:58:07. > :58:10.Essex flooded again this wedk. Traders in Southend are adalant the
:58:11. > :58:15.new look seafront is to blale. Masses of concrete, nor what
:58:16. > :58:19.attracts or diversions for water. It all games are away. Plans for a
:58:20. > :58:22.giant aquarium in Bedfordshhre became an expensive watch it when
:58:23. > :58:27.planning permission ran out this week. But will developers ever pay
:58:28. > :58:32.back the ?4 million alone bx the taxpayer? We worked hard for our
:58:33. > :58:37.money, we have given it to these people. Where is it? Enthushasm for
:58:38. > :58:41.a 900 acre solar farm at Peterborough seems to have dried up.
:58:42. > :58:46.The City Council put its pl`ns on hold. It is high time that the City
:58:47. > :58:52.Council faced the reality and pulled the plug on even more public
:58:53. > :58:57.expenditure. There was a flood of support for a delegate at the Labour
:58:58. > :59:01.conference his brother died in a diabetic, after his benefits were
:59:02. > :59:09.stopped. Noel lessons have been learned. People are still dxing
:59:10. > :59:18.Very quickly both of you on the question of solar farms werd you
:59:19. > :59:22.stand? I am in favour. And would people who live nearby have the
:59:23. > :59:26.opportunity of seeing, I do not wanted here? There has been a public
:59:27. > :59:31.meeting at the local people seem to be in favour. If they were ` case
:59:32. > :59:36.that we would not go ahead. There should be the mechanism for local
:59:37. > :59:38.people to have their say, it is ridiculous that we are caushng power
:59:39. > :59:45.stations are putting these windmills and solar farms anywhere. It is
:59:46. > :59:51.crackers. So you disagree? Xou would not have solar panels as part of
:59:52. > :59:57.your policy? Now. What do you see to that? I think you should be
:59:58. > :00:01.open`minded. I think solar farms only good thing and obviously you
:00:02. > :00:05.and I do not agree on global warming either but solar farms are
:00:06. > :00:10.providing, provided they ard not offensive to the local people are a
:00:11. > :00:14.good idea. You are not objecting to them on people 's riffs and things?
:00:15. > :00:18.Now, but when you look at the fact that we are causing power stations
:00:19. > :00:22.that provide us with a third of our energy over the next 18 months now
:00:23. > :00:24.out of windmills or solar f`rms will be able to compensate for the energy
:00:25. > :00:29.shortages. Both of you thank you. But you can keep in touch vha
:00:30. > :00:33.our website where you'll also find We're back at the same time next
:00:34. > :00:37.week, when the Lib Dems wind up our Conference Season but
:00:38. > :00:39.for now it's back to Andrew. My thanks to you both. Andrew, back
:00:40. > :01:00.to you. Here we are back in Birmingham with
:01:01. > :01:05.the Conservatives. The Tories thought all they had to do was come
:01:06. > :01:11.here, have a rally, a jamboree, and off they go to the races, or in
:01:12. > :01:17.their case the general election Two races later it hasn't quite worked
:01:18. > :01:23.out like that. Let's look at the state of this conference as it gets
:01:24. > :01:28.under way. On our panel we are joined by David Davis. You wrote an
:01:29. > :01:33.article in the Mail on Sunday this morning which was an Exocet at the
:01:34. > :01:41.heart of David Cameron's modernising strategy. It was designed to act as
:01:42. > :01:46.a lever. It was designed to cause trouble. No, we are in the running
:01:47. > :01:50.for the next general election. One of the characteristics of having a
:01:51. > :01:55.five year fixed term Parliaments is that the last year is about
:01:56. > :02:01.campaigning. It is important we beat Miliband, he would be a disastrous
:02:02. > :02:08.Prime Minister. You think the whole modernising strategy was a wrong
:02:09. > :02:24.turn, that is what the article said. Yes. Has that opened the door to
:02:25. > :02:34.UKIP? It has left a lot of people disillusioned with politics. What do
:02:35. > :02:52.you do to get it right? Who was listening to you?
:02:53. > :03:11.Frankly we need to take a more robust series of policies. How many
:03:12. > :03:20.more UKIP defections will there be? I do not think there will be any
:03:21. > :03:23.more. I would be very surprised I know Nigel Farage has a brilliant
:03:24. > :03:29.sense of timing, but I do not think he has got the resources to do that,
:03:30. > :03:33.namely, another Tory MP. So it could be another Labour one, maybe? I
:03:34. > :03:41.think an awful lot will hinge on what happens in Rochester. Because
:03:42. > :03:45.that is not a slam dunk. Clack and unfortunately looks like it will be
:03:46. > :03:58.a walkover for them. But Rochester is a different scene. And so, there
:03:59. > :04:03.could be a kind of Newark situation. When I campaigned in Newark, two
:04:04. > :04:07.labour families I spoke to said they would vote Tory to keep UKIP out.
:04:08. > :04:15.How bad was the Labour conference last week? One politician said after
:04:16. > :04:18.he had a really bad performance that his television performance was
:04:19. > :04:23.suboptimal. I think that would be a good way of describing Ed
:04:24. > :04:27.Miliband's speech. The problem for Ed Miliband in memorising speeches
:04:28. > :04:30.is that we are not auditioning for a new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing
:04:31. > :04:35.for Prime Minister. He failed the Laurence Olivier test, and therefore
:04:36. > :04:38.failed the Prime Minister test. I think the real problem for him was
:04:39. > :04:42.forgetting to mention the deficit. He spoke from the heart about issues
:04:43. > :04:48.which she really cares about, the NHS, the rupture between wages and
:04:49. > :04:52.inflation, and forgot the deficit. Those issues are important, but if
:04:53. > :04:55.you are not addressing things like the deficit, then people are really
:04:56. > :05:01.not going to be listening to your messages on the areas that matter.
:05:02. > :05:07.Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am afraid. I hope that this ends the
:05:08. > :05:10.nonsense of leaders wasting their time learning speeches off by
:05:11. > :05:16.heart. You could learn a Shakespeare play in the time it takes to learn
:05:17. > :05:19.70 minutes of a leader's speech I think we should just go back to
:05:20. > :05:24.sensible reading what you have written. You can then alter it just
:05:25. > :05:28.beforehand. A lot of things were changing, which is not surprising,
:05:29. > :05:32.but he did not have time to learn it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked
:05:33. > :05:36.once or twice, but that is enough for that. Despite some of the
:05:37. > :05:39.derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories are flat-lining in the sun decks,
:05:40. > :05:46.they have been there almost since the disastrous budget, the
:05:47. > :05:51.omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is still several points ahead, nothing
:05:52. > :05:55.seems to change? And David Cameron is now the leader in trouble. It is
:05:56. > :06:03.almost as if a week is a long time in politics. I thought the Labour
:06:04. > :06:09.and friends was Saab -- sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial.
:06:10. > :06:12.You could've watched the top speeches without knowing that the
:06:13. > :06:17.borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and Syria were in question. I hope,
:06:18. > :06:21.because of Friday's discussion in Parliament, that this conference
:06:22. > :06:25.will raise its sights a bit, and we will have something in Cameron's
:06:26. > :06:29.speech, possibly that of George Osborne as well, which is a bit more
:06:30. > :06:34.global. People hoped UKIP had gone away during the summer, people at
:06:35. > :06:42.this conference, I mean, but it is back with a bang. They are still up
:06:43. > :06:47.at 15% in the polls, the Tories languishing on 32 - what is going to
:06:48. > :06:55.change? UKIP won 3% of the last election, I always thought they
:06:56. > :06:59.would get about 6%. If, by the turn of the year, they are still in
:07:00. > :07:03.double digits, I think at that point you can begin to wake of his
:07:04. > :07:08.party's chances of winning. I have had three people say to me so far,
:07:09. > :07:12.come election day, it will be fine, people will sober up and so on. It
:07:13. > :07:18.will be all right on the night is not a very good strategy, frankly.
:07:19. > :07:24.When they get past 5%, I start to bite into our 3-way marginal seats,
:07:25. > :07:27.with liberals, Labour and Tories, and we have got about 60 of those in
:07:28. > :07:32.the Midlands and the north, so it really is quite serious. And if I
:07:33. > :07:38.may steal one of David's lines, when you were interviewing Mark Reckless
:07:39. > :07:41.this morning, and was not talking about the EU referendum, he was
:07:42. > :07:45.talking about how he felt he had broken his pledges to the electorate
:07:46. > :07:48.because the Conservatives he said had failed on immigration and on the
:07:49. > :07:52.deficit, and those sort of bread-and-butter issues could be
:07:53. > :07:56.really potent on the doorstep, which means the Tories have got to run the
:07:57. > :08:00.kind of campaign they ran in Newark, which is a real centre ground,
:08:01. > :08:04.Reddan but a campaign, in which they would hope to get Liberal Democrat
:08:05. > :08:08.and Labour voters out to vote tactically against UKIP. I think
:08:09. > :08:14.today we have seen Cameron been pushed to the right. He has had to
:08:15. > :08:17.say, yes, I would leave Europe, which he has never said before. It
:08:18. > :08:23.is a huge stepping stone, a big difference. It takes the Tory party
:08:24. > :08:29.somewhere else. May be get them a lot of votes. But it has not so far.
:08:30. > :08:34.But I think it loses a lot of people. The industry organisations,
:08:35. > :08:40.for example. The prospect of going out of Europe, but is quite a fight
:08:41. > :08:47.for them. Is it not the lesson that you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do
:08:48. > :08:59.not need to, really. I agree, last week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold
:09:00. > :09:06.on, that is enough subs! I would not be crowing too much! But what I was
:09:07. > :09:10.going to say, he left out something incredibly important, the deficit.
:09:11. > :09:16.But how many people outside the M25 are thinking about the deficit? One
:09:17. > :09:20.problem we face with Miliband is, he is good at politics and bad at
:09:21. > :09:23.economics, in a way. He comes up with bonkers policies which people
:09:24. > :09:29.love, price-fixing, things like that. Our problem will be about
:09:30. > :09:33.relevance on the doorstep. I do not think at the end of the day it will
:09:34. > :09:37.be about Europe. But was there not a moment of danger for you at the
:09:38. > :09:40.conference, that one area where Miliband is potentially vulnerable
:09:41. > :09:45.is not having credible team with business. Who turned up at the
:09:46. > :09:50.Labour conference, the head of Airbus, saying, we have got to stay
:09:51. > :09:55.in the European Union? The danger is that Europe allows the Labour Party
:09:56. > :10:01.to gain credibility with business. There is some truth in that. But we
:10:02. > :10:04.are in effectively the home straight, the last six months, and
:10:05. > :10:09.people will be fussing about prices and jobs. Very parochial. They will
:10:10. > :10:14.not be saying, what does the CBI think about this? It is, what is
:10:15. > :10:22.happening to me, in my town, in my factory, in my office. That is where
:10:23. > :10:28.the fight will be. Is it not the truth that if UKIP stays anywhere
:10:29. > :10:32.near around this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to
:10:33. > :10:37.win an overall majority? I would say, if it is this level of support,
:10:38. > :10:41.it is impossible for the Tories to finish as the biggest party, even in
:10:42. > :10:46.a hung Parliament. The Tories keep trying to win back UKIP voters with
:10:47. > :10:50.cold logic - witches it makes Ed Miliband becoming prime minister
:10:51. > :10:55.more likely. UKIP is basically a vessel phenomenon, coming from the
:10:56. > :10:58.gut, and David Cameron has never found the emotional pitch in his
:10:59. > :11:02.rhetoric to meet that. I wonder whether we will see that moron
:11:03. > :11:15.Wednesday. It is just not him. I hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I
:11:16. > :11:19.hope you're right that we do actually engage on emotion. So far
:11:20. > :11:23.with UKIP, our policy has been to insult them. It does not work. I
:11:24. > :11:28.know that from my constituency. We have to say to them, there is a
:11:29. > :11:31.wider Tory family, we understand you are patria, we understand you are
:11:32. > :11:36.worried about your family, and we do the same. What does it tell us about
:11:37. > :11:39.the state of the Tories, seven months from the election, the
:11:40. > :11:43.economy is going well, they are not that far behind Labour, and yet
:11:44. > :11:47.there is all sorts of leadership speculation? It is extraordinary.
:11:48. > :11:56.They are doing well, they are in with a shout. It depends. UKIP has
:11:57. > :12:04.to be kept below 9% of. -- below 9%. I think David Cameron is one of
:12:05. > :12:08.the few who speaks human, actually talks quite well to people and does
:12:09. > :12:13.not look like a swivel-eyed loons. Whereas a lot of people behind him
:12:14. > :12:17.do. You look at Duncan Smith and Eric Pickles, they are all kind of
:12:18. > :12:26.driven, ideological men, with very right-wing policies. And nice
:12:27. > :12:29.people! Don't hold back! He is not the Addams family, he is basically
:12:30. > :12:35.quite human. I think a lot of people do not realise how ideological he is
:12:36. > :12:39.himself and how well he has led his party in the direction they all want
:12:40. > :12:42.to go. You go on about him being this metropolitan moderniser, I do
:12:43. > :12:47.not think that is what he is, really. It may not be visible from
:12:48. > :12:52.the guardian offices in the metropolis! Everybody where you are,
:12:53. > :12:57.Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser. And where you are, too. That is the
:12:58. > :13:01.nature of living in London. The trouble is, when these people get
:13:02. > :13:05.into Westminster, they are part of Westminster, too. If you could only
:13:06. > :13:10.win by being an outsider, the moment you get in, you are done for. All
:13:11. > :13:19.teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson to be the next leader? I do not
:13:20. > :13:24.think so! The point of my Exocet, or lever, this morning, is that I think
:13:25. > :13:28.this is winnable. If we are good Tories for the next six months, we
:13:29. > :13:35.can do this. It is by denying ground to UKIP, not giving in to them, not
:13:36. > :13:39.buckling. Denying ground. Thank you to our panel. They did all right
:13:40. > :13:43.today, but the normal. That is your lot for today. I am back tomorrow.
:13:44. > :13:48.We will have live coverage of George Osborne's speech to the conference.
:13:49. > :13:51.I am back next week in Glasgow for The Sunday Politics at the Labour
:13:52. > :13:55.conference. How could you miss that? Remember, if it is Sunday it
:13:56. > :14:24.is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye of statutory press regulation in
:14:25. > :14:39.sponge cake may be a bridge too far. I think I've overdone it
:14:40. > :14:42.with the pistachios and somehow, the custard's split,
:14:43. > :14:45.but it's too late! of statutory press regulation in
:14:46. > :14:57.sponge cake may be a bridge too far.