:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:44. > :00:47.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:48. > :00:50.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:51. > :01:02.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:03. > :01:09.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:10. > :01:18.Here in the East... 18 days in the job.
:01:19. > :01:20.The devolution dream for Norfolk and Suffolk is all over.
:01:21. > :01:23.In a special programme, we look at what's gone wrong
:01:24. > :01:28.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:29. > :01:37.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:38. > :01:40.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:41. > :01:45.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative
:01:46. > :01:47.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:48. > :01:50.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:56.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:57. > :01:58."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:01:59. > :02:01.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:02. > :02:09.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:10. > :02:16.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:17. > :02:26.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:27. > :02:32.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:33. > :02:35.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:36. > :02:39.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:40. > :02:43.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then
:02:44. > :02:49.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:50. > :02:54.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:55. > :02:57.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:58. > :03:04.when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:05. > :03:10.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:11. > :03:16.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:17. > :03:18.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:19. > :03:23.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:24. > :03:28.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:29. > :03:31.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:32. > :03:36.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:37. > :03:43.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:44. > :03:46.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:47. > :03:51.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:52. > :03:55.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:56. > :04:02.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:03. > :04:06.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:07. > :04:11.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:12. > :04:15.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:16. > :04:19.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:20. > :04:25.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:26. > :04:27.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:28. > :04:33.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:34. > :04:42.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:43. > :04:45.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:46. > :04:52.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:53. > :04:56.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:57. > :04:59.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:00. > :05:04.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:05. > :05:08.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:09. > :05:14.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:15. > :05:18.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:19. > :05:21.still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade
:05:22. > :05:28.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:29. > :05:32.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:33. > :05:37.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:38. > :05:41.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:42. > :05:46.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:47. > :05:54.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:55. > :05:59.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:00. > :06:02.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:03. > :06:08.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:09. > :06:16.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:17. > :06:21.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:22. > :06:25.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:26. > :06:29.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:30. > :06:34.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:35. > :06:39.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:40. > :06:54.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:55. > :06:59.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:00. > :07:02.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:03. > :07:05.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:06. > :07:11.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:12. > :07:19.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:20. > :07:23.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:24. > :07:27.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:28. > :07:32.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:33. > :07:36.our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:37. > :07:40.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:41. > :07:46.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:47. > :07:49.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:50. > :07:56.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:57. > :08:00.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:01. > :08:05.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:06. > :08:09.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:10. > :08:18.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %
:08:19. > :08:22.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:23. > :08:27.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:28. > :08:34.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:35. > :08:37.Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules
:08:38. > :08:43.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:44. > :08:49.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:50. > :08:50.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view
:08:51. > :08:59.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:00. > :09:03.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:04. > :09:09.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:10. > :09:14.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:15. > :09:19.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:20. > :09:24.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:25. > :09:26.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:27. > :09:33.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:34. > :09:38.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:39. > :09:42.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:43. > :09:46.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:47. > :09:50.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:51. > :09:57.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:58. > :10:00.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:01. > :10:07.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:08. > :10:10.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:11. > :10:16.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:17. > :10:20.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:21. > :10:24.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:25. > :10:30.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:31. > :10:34.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:35. > :10:37.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:38. > :10:45.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:46. > :10:48.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:49. > :10:55.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:56. > :11:05.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:06. > :11:09.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:10. > :11:13.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:14. > :11:26.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:27. > :11:32.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:33. > :11:37.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:38. > :11:42.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:43. > :11:46.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:47. > :11:54.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:55. > :11:56.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:57. > :11:57.also means quitting the
:11:58. > :11:59.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:00. > :12:01.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:02. > :12:03.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:04. > :12:05.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:06. > :12:08.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:09. > :12:17.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:18. > :12:22.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:23. > :12:25."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:26. > :12:28.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:29. > :12:29.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:30. > :12:41.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:42. > :12:44.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:45. > :12:47.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:48. > :12:50.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:51. > :12:52.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:53. > :12:59.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:00. > :13:04.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:05. > :13:06.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:07. > :13:11.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:12. > :13:17.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:18. > :13:20.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:21. > :13:34.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:35. > :13:37.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:38. > :13:45.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:46. > :13:49.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:50. > :13:53.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:54. > :13:58.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:13:59. > :14:01.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:02. > :14:07.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:08. > :14:09.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:10. > :14:14.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:15. > :14:19.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:20. > :14:22.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:23. > :14:27.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself
:14:28. > :14:32.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The
:14:33. > :14:35.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters
:14:36. > :14:40.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:41. > :14:44.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:45. > :14:49.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:50. > :14:54.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:55. > :14:58.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would
:14:59. > :15:02.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:03. > :15:06.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:07. > :15:13.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:14. > :15:17.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:18. > :15:21.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:22. > :15:25.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:26. > :15:29.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:30. > :15:32.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:33. > :15:38.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:39. > :15:44.accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full
:15:45. > :15:48.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:49. > :15:56.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:57. > :15:58.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:15:59. > :16:00.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:01. > :16:07.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:08. > :16:11.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:12. > :16:13.It's not the EU which is
:16:14. > :16:16.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:17. > :16:19.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:20. > :16:22.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:23. > :16:25.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:26. > :16:27.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:28. > :16:29.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:30. > :16:33.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:34. > :16:47.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:48. > :16:51.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:52. > :16:54.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:55. > :16:57.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:16:58. > :17:02.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:03. > :17:05.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:06. > :17:10.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:11. > :17:11.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:12. > :17:30.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:31. > :17:32.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:33. > :17:35.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:36. > :17:38.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:39. > :17:40.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:41. > :17:43.Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:44. > :17:45.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:46. > :17:47.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:48. > :17:49.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:50. > :17:52.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:53. > :17:54.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:55. > :17:58.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:17:59. > :18:01.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:02. > :18:05.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:06. > :18:07.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:08. > :18:10.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:11. > :18:13.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:14. > :18:25.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:26. > :18:27.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:28. > :18:32.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:33. > :18:35.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:36. > :18:39.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:40. > :18:43.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:44. > :18:47.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:48. > :18:53.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:54. > :18:58.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:18:59. > :19:01.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:02. > :19:03.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:04. > :19:06.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:07. > :19:14.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t
:19:15. > :19:14.run. There is absolutely
:19:15. > :19:16.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:17. > :19:18.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:19. > :19:22.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:23. > :19:31.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:32. > :19:34.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:35. > :19:37.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:38. > :19:47.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:48. > :19:52.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:53. > :20:02.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:03. > :20:05.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:06. > :20:08.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:09. > :20:12.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:13. > :20:17.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:18. > :20:20.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:21. > :20:24.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:25. > :20:27.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:28. > :20:31.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:32. > :20:35.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:36. > :20:38.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:39. > :20:42.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:43. > :20:47.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:48. > :20:51.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:52. > :20:54.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:55. > :20:58.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:20:59. > :21:02.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:03. > :21:05.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:06. > :21:10.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:11. > :21:13.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:14. > :21:16.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:17. > :21:19.membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you
:21:20. > :21:23.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:24. > :21:29.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:30. > :21:33.promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:34. > :21:37.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:38. > :21:41.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:42. > :21:46.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You
:21:47. > :21:48.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:49. > :21:51.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:52. > :21:55.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:56. > :21:58.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:21:59. > :22:02.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:03. > :22:05.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:06. > :22:09.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:10. > :22:12.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:13. > :22:13.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:14. > :22:15.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:16. > :22:18.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:19. > :22:21.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:22. > :22:24.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:25. > :22:27.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:28. > :22:42.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:43. > :22:52.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:53. > :23:00.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:01. > :23:02.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:03. > :23:04.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:05. > :23:19.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:20. > :23:21.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:22. > :23:24.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:25. > :23:26.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:27. > :23:29.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:30. > :23:33.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:34. > :23:36.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party
:23:37. > :23:42.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:43. > :23:46.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:47. > :23:51.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:52. > :23:57.over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:58. > :24:00.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:01. > :24:09.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:10. > :24:12.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:13. > :24:17.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:18. > :24:20.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:21. > :24:22.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:23. > :24:28.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:29. > :24:30.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:31. > :24:44.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:45. > :24:47.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:48. > :24:50.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:51. > :24:53.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:54. > :24:55.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:56. > :24:58.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:24:59. > :25:00.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:01. > :25:09.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:10. > :25:12.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:13. > :25:14.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:15. > :25:17.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:18. > :25:19.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:20. > :25:23.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:24. > :25:25.that is something that Our members are not
:25:26. > :25:31.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:32. > :25:33.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:34. > :25:35.the future What method would you use
:25:36. > :25:38.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:39. > :25:41.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:42. > :25:45.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:46. > :25:51.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:52. > :25:53.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:54. > :25:58.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:25:59. > :25:59.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:00. > :26:05.details. This is one vote that
:26:06. > :26:08.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:09. > :26:12.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:13. > :26:14.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:15. > :26:18.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:19. > :26:21.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:22. > :26:29.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:30. > :26:37.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:38. > :26:40.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:41. > :26:43.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:44. > :26:45.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:46. > :26:48.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:49. > :27:03.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:04. > :27:13.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:14. > :27:16.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:17. > :27:19.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:20. > :27:22.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:23. > :27:26.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:27. > :27:29.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:30. > :27:33.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:34. > :27:53.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:54. > :27:56.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:57. > :27:59.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:00. > :28:01.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:02. > :28:03.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:04. > :28:06.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:07. > :28:08.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:09. > :28:11.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:12. > :28:14.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:15. > :28:16.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:17. > :28:19.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:20. > :28:21.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:22. > :28:25.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:26. > :28:28.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:29. > :28:34.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:35. > :28:39.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:40. > :28:43.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:44. > :28:46.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:47. > :28:51.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:52. > :28:55.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:56. > :28:59.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:00. > :29:03.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:04. > :29:06.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:07. > :29:09.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:10. > :29:20.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:21. > :29:22.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:23. > :29:25.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:26. > :29:27.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:28. > :29:31.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I
:29:32. > :29:34.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:35. > :29:38.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:39. > :29:42.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:43. > :29:45.be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better
:29:46. > :29:49.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:50. > :29:53.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:54. > :29:57.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:58. > :30:00.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:01. > :30:07.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:08. > :30:11.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:12. > :30:15.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:16. > :30:21.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:22. > :30:24.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:25. > :30:29.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:30. > :30:32.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:33. > :30:36.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:37. > :30:41.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:42. > :30:46.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:47. > :30:50.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The
:30:51. > :30:54.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:55. > :30:58.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:30:59. > :31:04.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:05. > :31:08.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:09. > :31:11.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:12. > :31:16.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:17. > :31:20.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:21. > :31:24.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:25. > :31:25.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:26. > :31:35.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:36. > :31:42.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:43. > :31:49.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:50. > :31:53.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:54. > :31:58.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:31:59. > :32:04.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:05. > :32:08.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:09. > :32:13.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:14. > :32:20.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:21. > :32:23.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:24. > :32:31.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:32. > :32:35.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:36. > :32:40.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:41. > :32:44.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:45. > :32:49.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:50. > :32:52.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:53. > :32:56.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:57. > :32:58.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:32:59. > :33:07.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:08. > :33:11.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:12. > :33:15.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:16. > :33:19.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:20. > :33:26.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:27. > :33:33.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:34. > :33:36.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:37. > :33:39.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:40. > :33:46.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns
:33:47. > :33:53.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:54. > :33:57.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:58. > :34:02.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:03. > :34:08.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:09. > :34:11.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:12. > :34:15.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:16. > :34:20.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:21. > :34:24.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:25. > :34:29.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:30. > :34:35.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:36. > :34:38.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:39. > :34:42.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:43. > :34:45.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:46. > :34:52.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:53. > :34:55.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:56. > :34:59.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:00. > :35:09.fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our
:35:10. > :35:14.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:15. > :35:18.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:19. > :35:24.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:25. > :35:28.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:29. > :35:33.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:34. > :35:37.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:38. > :35:42.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:43. > :35:46.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:47. > :35:53.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:54. > :35:59.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:00. > :36:04.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:05. > :36:09.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:10. > :36:14.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:15. > :36:18.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:19. > :36:34.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:35. > :36:41.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:42. > :36:47.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:48. > :36:50.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:51. > :36:53.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:54. > :37:02.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:03. > :37:05.Welcome to a special Sunday Politics East,
:37:06. > :37:11.devoted to devolution plans for this region.
:37:12. > :37:14.Here with me are some of the key people involved.
:37:15. > :37:18.Devolution will now deliver for Cambridgeshire and Peterborough.
:37:19. > :37:20.But the plan for Norfolk and Suffolk is over.
:37:21. > :37:23.The dream began with a handshake on a bridge over the River Waveney
:37:24. > :37:25.in 2013 and culminated in a 90-minute meeting
:37:26. > :37:34.in King's Lynn this week that saw the end of it.
:37:35. > :37:36.We'll hear from both sides and discuss what happens next.
:37:37. > :37:52.What this is about is, can you be more than a sum-of-parts?
:37:53. > :37:54.Can you really come together and actually achieve
:37:55. > :38:03.a level of growth that you couldn't achieve on your own?
:38:04. > :38:08.It has been such a torturous process.
:38:09. > :38:12.Yet, on the face of it, devolution seemed such a good idea.
:38:13. > :38:15.Instead of Westminster runnhng transport and road networks
:38:16. > :38:17.and deciding when new roads and homes should be built,
:38:18. > :38:19.a locally elected mayor could make the decisions instead
:38:20. > :38:29.He or she will be a big character, who can both make sure that
:38:30. > :38:32.we fight our corner domestically, get the investment we need,
:38:33. > :38:37.make the decisions locally to improve things.
:38:38. > :38:39.And also represent East Anglia around the world.
:38:40. > :38:42.We've agreed that a single, powerful East Anglia
:38:43. > :38:46.combined authority can headed up by an elected mayor...
:38:47. > :38:49.The initial plans were rushdd out by the government before thdy had
:38:50. > :38:55.And it eventually secured its own devolution deal,
:38:56. > :38:59.leaving Norfolk and Suffolk on their own.
:39:00. > :39:03.Four of Norfolk's seven authorities pulled out early on.
:39:04. > :39:06.On Thursday night this week, King's Lynn and West Norfolk
:39:07. > :39:11.I think people are concerned that the imposition of a maxor
:39:12. > :39:20.I think they understand that we need infrastructure and we need
:39:21. > :39:27.But I think they don't need another layer of bureaucracx.
:39:28. > :39:30.Tomorrow, the government is expected to confirm that the devoluthon deal
:39:31. > :39:32.for Norfolk and Suffolk is off the table.
:39:33. > :39:40.All of Suffolk councils were expected to approve
:39:41. > :39:44.And two authorities in Norfolk South Norfolk and Broadland -
:39:45. > :39:46.overwhelmingly said yes to a devolution this week.
:39:47. > :39:47.Devolution is, really, devolving powers from
:39:48. > :39:48.central government to local government
:39:49. > :39:53.And that's exactly what people in all the consultations,
:39:54. > :39:56.and everything that was said, wanted to hear.
:39:57. > :39:58.I would hate to think we are saying...
:39:59. > :40:01."Right, that's it, put it all to bed", and walk away.
:40:02. > :40:04.That will be a disaster for everybody.
:40:05. > :40:05.And, this weekend, people are talking about
:40:06. > :40:09.Of those in Norfolk and Suffolk who really want devolution
:40:10. > :40:17.But there are still some people hoping
:40:18. > :40:28.On Friday, the government ptlled out of the devolution deal for Norfolk
:40:29. > :40:32.and Suffolk worth ?750 millhon over 30 thirty years,
:40:33. > :40:38.The decision followed the vote at King's Lynn District Council
:40:39. > :40:43.The town's MP, Sir Henry Bellingham, has spearheaded the campaign
:40:44. > :40:46.against devolution and a directly elected mayor.
:40:47. > :40:48.He told Andrew Sinclair that he doesn't think
:40:49. > :40:55.We are seeing cuts to lollipop ladies, gritting on winter roads,
:40:56. > :41:02.And so, to actually have put money, a lot of money, into setting up
:41:03. > :41:06.with all the bureaucracy that entails -
:41:07. > :41:07.would have been completely unacceptable.
:41:08. > :41:11.?750 million over 30 years for infrastructure.
:41:12. > :41:13.Norfolk and Suffolk have just turned their backs
:41:14. > :41:19.George Osborne said he would devolve money to combined authoritids
:41:20. > :41:21.that would, otherwise, have been spent by
:41:22. > :41:30.It is old money being delivered in a new way.
:41:31. > :41:33.What we said in the manifesto was that we would devolve money
:41:34. > :41:35.to combined authorities and have elected mayors
:41:36. > :41:38.There's nothing in the manifesto about rural areas.
:41:39. > :41:41.What is interesting is that a lot of shire counties have rejected
:41:42. > :41:49.Yorkshire has rejected it. Lincolnshire as well.
:41:50. > :41:51.So, basically, elected mayors do not go in shire counties.
:41:52. > :41:54.I have an affinity to Norfolk, I love Norfolk.
:41:55. > :41:56.I have no affinity to East @nglia or Norfolk and Suffolk.
:41:57. > :41:58.But what is the problem with the mayor?
:41:59. > :42:01.Why are people so fearful of the idea of a mayor?
:42:02. > :42:04.First of all, this would have been a Suffolk mayor, because, already,
:42:05. > :42:05.four Norfolk councils were out of the process.
:42:06. > :42:08.So it wasn't Norfolk and Suffolk, as everyone kept saying.
:42:09. > :42:14.So, by definition, it would have been a Suffolk mayor.
:42:15. > :42:17.And the mayor would have had power over regional planning.
:42:18. > :42:20.He could have set up a land commission, which could havd looked
:42:21. > :42:24.We were going to see powers going away from our borough council
:42:25. > :42:27.So, I don't want to have that power given away.
:42:28. > :42:29.I don't want to have a fifth tier of bureaucracy.
:42:30. > :42:33.I think the idea of having loney given to local authorities,
:42:34. > :42:36.or to a new combined authorhty without a mayor, is a good hdea
:42:37. > :42:39.But I'm dead against the idea of an elected mayor.
:42:40. > :42:41.The public would not have found that acceptable.
:42:42. > :42:43.Nick Daubney, the former leader of King's Lynn Counchl
:42:44. > :42:47."Norfolk is so often at the bottom of the pile.
:42:48. > :42:50."Devolution will make things happen".
:42:51. > :42:52.Isn't there a danger that Cambridgeshire will move ahdad
:42:53. > :42:53.with devolution and Norfolk and Suffolk
:42:54. > :42:57.will, once again, be left at the bottom of the pile?
:42:58. > :43:00.If you look at the big-ticket items...
:43:01. > :43:04.Under this devolution deal, we were talking about 13 million
:43:05. > :43:07.a year, with a bit more for housing and a bit more for infrastrtcture.
:43:08. > :43:12.The Ely North Junction, which actually isn't in either
:43:13. > :43:14.Norfolk or Suffolk, by the way, is going to cost 100 million.
:43:15. > :43:17.The schemes on the A47 - we are talking about roundabouts -
:43:18. > :43:19.These schemes are in the programme already.
:43:20. > :43:21.What could the elected mayor and the combined authority
:43:22. > :43:26.It might have got things built quicker.
:43:27. > :43:28.I don't think it would have done,
:43:29. > :43:29.because the money is already committed.
:43:30. > :43:31.I don't accept what people are saying about
:43:32. > :43:35.And how Norfolk will go back into the dark ages.
:43:36. > :43:40.We will get a deal in futurd that will suit Norfolk much better.
:43:41. > :43:42.And it may well not entail an elected mayor.
:43:43. > :43:44.So, what sort of a deal do you envisage in future?
:43:45. > :43:46.The government have made it very clear
:43:47. > :43:50.They want the devolution deals to go through.
:43:51. > :43:53.But, in phase one, they had to be elected mayors,
:43:54. > :43:55.because that's what Sajid Javid inherited.
:43:56. > :43:59."Look, if you reject this ddal, I won't take it personally.
:44:00. > :44:07.And we can look at a new de`l. That's what he said.
:44:08. > :44:10.Listening to that is one of the main architects of the plans,
:44:11. > :44:12.West Suffolk MP and Minister for Culture and Digital Polhcy,
:44:13. > :44:16.Henry Bellingham is very confident of a new deal
:44:17. > :44:22.I am not sure about that. What I do want to see is the continuation of
:44:23. > :44:27.the principle behind devolution which is one that many people back,
:44:28. > :44:32.including right across Norfolk and certainly here in Suffolk. That is
:44:33. > :44:38.the more decision should be made locally. More local Seo for those
:44:39. > :44:44.decisions. Of course it is disappointing when more mondy
:44:45. > :44:51.locally is put on the table or decisions to be made locallx is put
:44:52. > :44:53.the table, and we have been working on this pan for several years. And
:44:54. > :44:57.some councils have decided to reject it. But I think we should continue
:44:58. > :44:59.to work to get decisions made locally. The mayor seems to be the
:45:00. > :45:03.main sticking point. Why has the government insisted
:45:04. > :45:05.upon something that, quite frankly, lots
:45:06. > :45:13.of people at a local I'm not sure that is true, `ctually.
:45:14. > :45:18.I think the idea of having ` single person who is accountable as well as
:45:19. > :45:22.responsible is a very strong one. It certainly worked in lots of areas
:45:23. > :45:29.around the world and countrx. And it really puts a place on the lap. So,
:45:30. > :45:33.I think that it is a popular idea and a good idea. And I think that it
:45:34. > :45:43.will work. What we've got to do now is take away that this is about
:45:44. > :45:46.getting decisions made locally. If the council decides locally that
:45:47. > :45:50.they don't want those powers, that is their decision. I think we should
:45:51. > :45:54.continue to work with those who want to go forward with the deal and
:45:55. > :45:56.thumping close of the deal that is on the table. And try to make that
:45:57. > :46:10.work. These decisions should be m`de on
:46:11. > :46:14.the deal should be made loc`lly unsupported locally. Right `cross
:46:15. > :46:18.Suffolk, people are very supportive of having extra money coming into
:46:19. > :46:23.their area and extra powers so decisions can be made locally. I
:46:24. > :46:28.want to see that happen. We will be working with the decision that was
:46:29. > :46:32.made in Norfolk on Friday. We will be working next week to see if we
:46:33. > :46:39.can land a deal amongst those who want to support it. How significant
:46:40. > :46:44.is all of this? We had the accusation that it is just old money
:46:45. > :46:50.being spent on a different way. It is extra money coming to our area.
:46:51. > :46:55.That is the point. Of coursd, all government money ultimately as tax
:46:56. > :47:01.payer's money. But that is `t a national level. I want to sde extra
:47:02. > :47:06.what was being proposed. And I hope what was being proposed. And I hope
:47:07. > :47:15.that we can keep that on thd table. So, I think there is a good deal of
:47:16. > :47:19.support for continuing with this. And that is amongst those who want
:47:20. > :47:25.a. Those who don't, that fine. Thank you very much. -- those who wanted.
:47:26. > :47:27.Here in the studio, we have the former Labour ldader
:47:28. > :47:30.of Norfolk County Council, George Nobbs, who was for
:47:31. > :47:33.Colin Noble, Leader of Suffolk County Council,
:47:34. > :47:36.John Fuller, the leader of South Norfolk District Council,
:47:37. > :47:39.who has spent a great deal of time trying to make it work.
:47:40. > :47:41.And Norfolk MP, Richard Bacon, who added his name
:47:42. > :47:43.to a letter supporting devolution last month.
:47:44. > :47:50.George Nobbs, you were in f`vour, but you're not now?
:47:51. > :47:53.But hasn't Norfolk missed ott on all this money and the chance
:47:54. > :48:06.I don't think so. A lot of things that Matthew said... He said, for
:48:07. > :48:14.example, this is about decisions being made locally. Yet the decision
:48:15. > :48:17.which has scuppered the stedl is one which we cannot make locallx. The
:48:18. > :48:21.whole problem with this as H have been in favour from the beghnning of
:48:22. > :48:25.devolution, but it has been dictated to us. I remember going to leetings
:48:26. > :48:27.with ministers where they h`ve said in the past we have imposed a model
:48:28. > :48:32.that was a mistake. It is up to you that was a mistake. It is up to you
:48:33. > :48:42.to devise exactly the deal xou want. And then, as soon as we went to them
:48:43. > :48:43.and said, can we change this? No. So, the government had handled this
:48:44. > :48:52.badly. Well, the government has had badly. Well, the government has had
:48:53. > :48:59.to deal with diametrically opposed interests. I supported it bdcause I
:49:00. > :49:05.didn't want extra money to comment Norfolk and Suffolk. This ddal was a
:49:06. > :49:07.route to making that happen. I thought there was a chance to
:49:08. > :49:10.streamline it later on and lake it streamline it later on and lake it
:49:11. > :49:15.more acceptable. John Fuller, extra money that could have slippdd
:49:16. > :49:18.through your fingers. You fdeling a bit despondent this morning? Yes, I
:49:19. > :49:24.am disappointed that if you have a am disappointed that if you have a
:49:25. > :49:28.winning lottery ticket and xour neighbour's dog eats it. But that
:49:29. > :49:39.lottery ticket was worth ne`rly ?1 billion. So long, that taxp`yer s
:49:40. > :49:44.money from this region has gone on to London. We could have got that
:49:45. > :49:49.back, but also retained a greater proportion going forward. And that
:49:50. > :49:51.seems, to me, it is a government forcing a man upon us, that seemed
:49:52. > :50:00.to me a price worth paying. Colin Noble, Sir Henry Bellhngham
:50:01. > :50:03.took a strong objection to ` mayor Seriously, though, the concdrns
:50:04. > :50:15.in Kings Lynn are very diffdrent I think for me, as long as H've been
:50:16. > :50:20.a councillor, this has alwaxs been about more local decision-m`king. As
:50:21. > :50:25.higher had more senior roles, we have gone to Whitehall and pointed
:50:26. > :50:30.what we should be doing. -- as I what we should be doing. -- as I
:50:31. > :50:33.have had more senior roles. You are sitting with council leaders and
:50:34. > :50:38.business people who know thd area know what needs to be done `nd make
:50:39. > :50:41.decisions and better decisions than are made in Whitehall. John made the
:50:42. > :50:46.point about the amount of money on offer. For me, this has alw`ys been
:50:47. > :50:50.about more local decision-m`king. Whether the mayor came from Norfolk
:50:51. > :50:54.Suffolk, I don't accept the point at all. I think the combined atthority
:50:55. > :50:58.on the way we work together shows that we can make the decisions for
:50:59. > :51:01.knowledge of it, which is a far knowledge of it, which is a far
:51:02. > :51:07.better way of making decisions than doing it by going down to Whitehall.
:51:08. > :51:14.You are nodding in agreement. But you could not make it work. I am not
:51:15. > :51:18.in agreement with Henry Bellingham. It is not an objection to the
:51:19. > :51:24.scheme. Henry says he has no affinity with East Anglia. H find
:51:25. > :51:28.that hard to believe. I don't mind whether the mayor comes frol Norfolk
:51:29. > :51:32.Suffolk. I just don't want there to be one. And I don't want ond
:51:33. > :51:35.imposed. John says the government imposing one is a price worth
:51:36. > :51:38.paying. If the money was sufficiently good and you could
:51:39. > :51:42.convince councils it would work they would have voted for it. Five
:51:43. > :51:47.out of seven districts in Norfolk voted no. The whole with thhs.. You
:51:48. > :51:53.remember the meeting in Cambridge. Out of the blue, we were told that
:51:54. > :51:58.Norfolk and Suffolk deal is dead. The Cambridge deal is dead. This new
:51:59. > :52:03.deal, which we have announcdd as a surprise today is the only deal
:52:04. > :52:09.town. They have changed backward and forward and it has been top,down.
:52:10. > :52:13.John Fuller? There have been changes. It would have been more
:52:14. > :52:16.straightforward, the governlent just told us what they were doing. There
:52:17. > :52:22.have been bumps along the road. -- have been bumps along the road. --
:52:23. > :52:27.away from the main point. Rhchard away from the main point. Rhchard
:52:28. > :52:31.and I were opposed on the ET debate. We need to have an outward looking
:52:32. > :52:38.economy after Brexit. We have to compete on a geography that makes
:52:39. > :52:43.sense to inward investors. @nd having somebody, a mayor, who can go
:52:44. > :52:48.out and represent our interdsts it is a good thing. We are net
:52:49. > :52:52.contributors to the Exchequdr. I would rather have them spent in
:52:53. > :52:57.Norfolk and Suffolk. Even if it is not quite enough as George light say
:52:58. > :53:01.to start with, the point of this was it was the start of something that
:53:02. > :53:05.could have grown. You could have seen the PCC being merged into the
:53:06. > :53:10.elected county commissioner. There is every reason why this should have
:53:11. > :53:15.evolved. Strategic decisions could then be made, regarding bro`dband
:53:16. > :53:26.local level. And you have gdnuine local level. And you have gdnuine
:53:27. > :53:31.local decision-making. And xou don't have concerns about more tidrs of
:53:32. > :53:32.government. We have 782 councillors across Norfolk and Suffolk. It
:53:33. > :53:37.sounds a bit heavy for me. We were sounds a bit heavy for me. We were
:53:38. > :53:43.not going to stream all of that through this deal. But I thhnk it
:53:44. > :53:49.would have led to a local government that for purpose.
:53:50. > :53:52.Because, whereas everyone here is very interested
:53:53. > :53:55.in all the details, I'm wondering whether people in the street
:53:56. > :53:57.are going to notice any difference at all,
:53:58. > :54:08.I think they would notice the difference if it was devolution
:54:09. > :54:11.This is the argument many of us happy forward. This has nothing to
:54:12. > :54:15.do with devolution. You mentioned the meeting on the bridge. That was
:54:16. > :54:22.nothing to do with this deal. That was Norfolk and Suffolk county
:54:23. > :54:28.councils and to do users -- two leaders coming together voltntarily.
:54:29. > :54:32.Colin, I want to hear your response. Doesn't matter to the ordin`ry
:54:33. > :54:37.people in the street? Yes, because it is about growth and jobs. We re
:54:38. > :54:41.of Whitehall and bringing them of Whitehall and bringing them
:54:42. > :54:46.locally and making better ddcisions to help grow our economy. When we
:54:47. > :54:51.looked at this after Juma Rdel took the decision go out and talk to the
:54:52. > :55:02.public and talk to businessds, some themes emerged. Very clear themes.
:55:03. > :55:10.When you were asked, do you want a mayor? They didn't want another
:55:11. > :55:15.layer of government. And ard you OK with a mayor? The answer was yes.
:55:16. > :55:20.Business people said yes overwhelmingly. Business, when you
:55:21. > :55:24.go out and talk to federations and Chambers and board members `nd wider
:55:25. > :55:29.than let board members, all of them are unanimous in their opinhon that,
:55:30. > :55:40.yes, a mayor would help drive growth. Let's move this and look
:55:41. > :55:43.forward to stop what next? John Fuller. You have talked abott the
:55:44. > :55:52.coalition of the willing. Those of us who do wish to get on...
:55:53. > :55:58.The moral case for building homes is good tomorrow as it was last week.
:55:59. > :56:01.The case for new jobs and infrastructure and training
:56:02. > :56:05.youngsters and the skills that they need to grow the economy is still
:56:06. > :56:09.going forward. That is what devolution was all about. I'm yet to
:56:10. > :56:12.meet anybody who does not w`nt infrastructure to go along with the
:56:13. > :56:16.building of new homes or jobs. That is what devolution is about. Those
:56:17. > :56:23.areas that want to get on should be able to. I think what this has shown
:56:24. > :56:27.us is that the people in West Norfolk have a completely dhfferent
:56:28. > :56:31.economy to those closest to Norwich. They look to Cambridge and
:56:32. > :56:34.Peterborough and, although we have a single county in Norfolk, there are
:56:35. > :56:38.different areas with differdnt aspirations. They need to bd
:56:39. > :56:43.accommodated. Does the government need to go back to the drawhng
:56:44. > :56:49.board? You have to start from where we are. A local councils in Norfolk
:56:50. > :56:54.and a similar number in Suffolk and far too many councils. That needs
:56:55. > :56:59.streamlining. Taxpayers expdct it. And they have every right to expect
:57:00. > :57:03.a local government that is fit for purpose. Even a small housing
:57:04. > :57:07.development can take ten to 15 years. We have got to get a local
:57:08. > :57:15.system for decision-making that works. And we need a strongdr local
:57:16. > :57:19.government that is steered by central government.
:57:20. > :57:21.Colin Noble, how confident are you of securing
:57:22. > :57:30.Yesterday, all of the leaders, we all sat down as we do every month,
:57:31. > :57:34.because we have a regular mdeting. And we discussed it and we decided
:57:35. > :57:37.that next week all about cotncils were meeting and we would go back to
:57:38. > :57:42.our councils with the results of the work that we done and talking to the
:57:43. > :57:46.public and talk to the councils to make a decision. Among the leaders,
:57:47. > :57:50.there's a feeling that we would like to go ahead and to put to the
:57:51. > :57:55.Secretary of State a Suffolk only deal. But it is not just Suffolk
:57:56. > :58:01.only. It is Suffolk -based. Other areas can see the advantage of
:58:02. > :58:07.devolution and the advantagd it will make and bring infrastructure
:58:08. > :58:12.spending, we want to talk to those areas. The SDP is north Essdx as
:58:13. > :58:15.well. Talk to all of our potential partners about how we would take a
:58:16. > :58:18.Suffolk -based devolution ddal forward. It is not over unthl it is
:58:19. > :58:21.over. Thank you very much. Before we go,
:58:22. > :58:23.something a little bit fishx in our political
:58:24. > :58:39.round-up of the week. A better deal for the fishing
:58:40. > :58:47.industry in this region was called for in Parliament this week. He said
:58:48. > :58:50.Brexit presented a opportunhty to regenerate communities like
:58:51. > :58:58.Lowestoft. This is the very least they deserve in the most dangerous
:58:59. > :59:06.trade in Britain. Labour's party faithful heard that membership has
:59:07. > :59:12.raised since last's General Election. The government is to spend
:59:13. > :59:16.?27 million on developing the case for a fast road link between Milton
:59:17. > :59:22.Keynes and Cambridge. The ddcision will be announced in next wdek's
:59:23. > :59:30.Autumn Statement. And Norfolk MP Richard Bacon prompted the PM into a
:59:31. > :59:36.response less to -- Theresa May and more may West. What reassur`nce does
:59:37. > :59:40.she have for fat, middle-agdd white men that may feel we have bden left
:59:41. > :59:50.behind? Perhaps he would like to come up and see me sometime?
:59:51. > :59:54.We're back at the same time next week.
:59:55. > :00:00.never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
:00:01. > :00:09.should spend more time on. Back to you.
:00:10. > :00:13.What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?
:00:14. > :00:16.What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy
:00:17. > :00:18.And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
:00:19. > :00:33.Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
:00:34. > :00:35.touring the television studios this morning.
:00:36. > :00:41.Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
:00:42. > :00:44.As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
:00:45. > :00:47.seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
:00:48. > :00:50.So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
:00:51. > :00:54.I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
:00:55. > :00:59.We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
:01:00. > :01:02.imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
:01:03. > :01:06.hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
:01:07. > :01:10.That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
:01:11. > :01:12.retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
:01:13. > :01:17.if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
:01:18. > :01:30.We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
:01:31. > :01:38.morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
:01:39. > :01:44.like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an
:01:45. > :01:48.infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
:01:49. > :01:57.was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
:01:58. > :02:00.the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
:02:01. > :02:05.there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
:02:06. > :02:09.set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
:02:10. > :02:18.is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
:02:19. > :02:27.-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
:02:28. > :02:30.they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
:02:31. > :02:35.the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
:02:36. > :02:46.until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
:02:47. > :02:48.Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
:02:49. > :02:51.Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
:02:52. > :02:57.comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
:02:58. > :03:03.collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
:03:04. > :03:10.economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
:03:11. > :03:13.say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
:03:14. > :03:17.take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
:03:18. > :03:21.Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
:03:22. > :03:27.and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
:03:28. > :03:32.Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
:03:33. > :03:36.spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
:03:37. > :03:40.a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
:03:41. > :03:45.for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions
:03:46. > :03:53.there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
:03:54. > :03:55.Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
:03:56. > :03:59.referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
:04:00. > :04:06.way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
:04:07. > :04:14.were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
:04:15. > :04:18.say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
:04:19. > :04:26.I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
:04:27. > :04:36.build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
:04:37. > :04:41.them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
:04:42. > :04:45.suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
:04:46. > :04:53.managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
:04:54. > :05:00.simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
:05:01. > :05:04.These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
:05:05. > :05:08.income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
:05:09. > :05:12.expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
:05:13. > :05:19.that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
:05:20. > :05:25.pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are
:05:26. > :05:30.people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
:05:31. > :05:35.number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
:05:36. > :05:39.pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,
:05:40. > :05:44.and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
:05:45. > :05:54.managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
:05:55. > :06:00.talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
:06:01. > :06:04.the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
:06:05. > :06:08.of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
:06:09. > :06:14.will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
:06:15. > :06:24.people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
:06:25. > :06:30.because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
:06:31. > :06:35.Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
:06:36. > :06:38.in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
:06:39. > :06:43.about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
:06:44. > :06:47.governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
:06:48. > :06:51.labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
:06:52. > :06:56.a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
:06:57. > :07:01.deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
:07:02. > :07:04.did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given
:07:05. > :07:10.himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
:07:11. > :07:16.will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
:07:17. > :07:22.the next political earthquake going to happen?
:07:23. > :07:29.It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring
:07:30. > :07:32.Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
:07:33. > :07:33.year's French Presidential elections?
:07:34. > :07:34.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:35. > :07:36.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:37. > :07:39.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:40. > :07:42.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:43. > :07:47.Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
:07:48. > :08:00.Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
:08:01. > :08:04.prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
:08:05. > :08:08.clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
:08:09. > :08:22.race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
:08:23. > :08:25.is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
:08:26. > :08:30.the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
:08:31. > :08:36.by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
:08:37. > :08:42.there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
:08:43. > :08:47.other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
:08:48. > :08:50.and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
:08:51. > :08:57.appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
:08:58. > :09:00.candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
:09:01. > :09:06.days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
:09:07. > :09:10.television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
:09:11. > :09:15.surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a
:09:16. > :09:19.British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
:09:20. > :09:27.first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
:09:28. > :09:31.We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
:09:32. > :09:35.fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
:09:36. > :09:39.party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
:09:40. > :09:41.president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
:09:42. > :09:45.negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
:09:46. > :09:52.after the German elections in October. I would add one more
:09:53. > :10:00.constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
:10:01. > :10:08.Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
:10:09. > :10:14.run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done
:10:15. > :10:18.There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
:10:19. > :10:24.centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
:10:25. > :10:33.and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it
:10:34. > :10:40.is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
:10:41. > :10:43.marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
:10:44. > :10:47.of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
:10:48. > :10:51.not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
:10:52. > :10:54.suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
:10:55. > :10:58.time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
:10:59. > :11:05.most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
:11:06. > :11:09.you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
:11:10. > :11:13.goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
:11:14. > :11:21.go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
:11:22. > :11:27.a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
:11:28. > :11:33.to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
:11:34. > :11:45.it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
:11:46. > :11:48.Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on
:11:49. > :11:54.the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
:11:55. > :11:57.French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
:11:58. > :12:13.the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
:12:14. > :12:21.policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
:12:22. > :12:29.elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
:12:30. > :12:31.are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
:12:32. > :12:34.against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
:12:35. > :12:39.economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
:12:40. > :12:48.the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
:12:49. > :12:52.classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
:12:53. > :12:57.And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
:12:58. > :13:03.effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
:13:04. > :13:11.socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
:13:12. > :13:13.will see what they come up with this time.
:13:14. > :13:18.The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
:13:19. > :13:23.where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:24. > :13:33.But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.