:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:45. > :00:49.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:50. > :00:53.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:54. > :00:59.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:00. > :01:01.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:02. > :01:06.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:07. > :01:08.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:09. > :01:11.minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.
:01:12. > :01:14.Here in the East: Years of cuts in subsidies for buses puts
:01:15. > :01:17.transport in rural areas at risk, so will the new bus bill
:01:18. > :01:34.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:35. > :01:37.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:38. > :01:44.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:45. > :01:46.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:47. > :01:50.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:51. > :01:56.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:57. > :01:58.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:01:59. > :02:02.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:03. > :02:05.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:06. > :02:09.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:10. > :02:12.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:13. > :02:16.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:17. > :02:21.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:22. > :02:22.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:23. > :02:26.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:27. > :02:28.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:29. > :02:43.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:44. > :02:48.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:49. > :02:55.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:56. > :03:00.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:01. > :03:03.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:04. > :03:06.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:07. > :03:10.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:11. > :03:15.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:16. > :03:19.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:20. > :03:24.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:25. > :03:30.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:31. > :03:33.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:34. > :03:39.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:40. > :03:44.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:45. > :03:48.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:49. > :03:54.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:55. > :03:58.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:03:59. > :04:01.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:02. > :04:08.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:09. > :04:11.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:12. > :04:17.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:18. > :04:21.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:22. > :04:28.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:29. > :04:32.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:33. > :04:40.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:41. > :04:51.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:52. > :04:54.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:55. > :05:03.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:04. > :05:08.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:09. > :05:12.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:13. > :05:16.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:17. > :05:22.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:23. > :05:26.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:27. > :05:33.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:34. > :05:41.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:42. > :05:47.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:48. > :05:53.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:54. > :06:00.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:01. > :06:04.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:05. > :06:11.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:12. > :06:27.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:28. > :06:33.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:34. > :06:40.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:41. > :06:44.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:45. > :06:48.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:49. > :06:55.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:56. > :07:00.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:01. > :07:03.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:04. > :07:08.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:09. > :07:15.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:16. > :07:19.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:20. > :07:23.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:24. > :07:27.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:28. > :07:34.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:35. > :07:42.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:43. > :07:45.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:46. > :07:54.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:55. > :07:57.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:07:58. > :07:59.That was what made it so fascinating.
:08:00. > :08:02.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:03. > :08:06.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:07. > :08:09.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:10. > :08:16.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:17. > :08:19."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:20. > :08:25.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:26. > :08:28.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:29. > :08:34.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:35. > :08:37.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:38. > :08:42.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:43. > :08:49.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:50. > :08:51.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:52. > :08:57.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:58. > :09:00.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:01. > :09:02.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:03. > :09:05.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:06. > :09:11.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:12. > :09:24.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:25. > :09:26.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:27. > :09:29.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:30. > :09:32.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:33. > :09:37.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:38. > :09:39.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:40. > :09:41.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:42. > :09:49.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:50. > :09:55.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:56. > :09:57.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:58. > :10:00.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:01. > :10:02.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:03. > :10:06.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:07. > :10:10.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:11. > :10:16.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:17. > :10:19.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:20. > :10:26.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:27. > :10:32.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:33. > :10:34.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:35. > :10:37.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:38. > :10:39.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:40. > :10:43.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:44. > :10:47.provide better services and save money.
:10:48. > :10:52.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:53. > :10:54.in the health service and local government,
:10:55. > :11:01.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:02. > :11:04.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:05. > :11:11.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:12. > :11:17.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:18. > :11:22.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:23. > :11:26.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:27. > :11:29.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:30. > :11:37.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:38. > :11:41.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:42. > :11:43.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:44. > :11:47.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:48. > :11:55.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:56. > :12:01.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:02. > :12:03.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:04. > :12:09.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:10. > :12:11.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:12. > :12:16.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:17. > :12:20.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:21. > :12:23.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:24. > :12:28.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:29. > :12:34.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:35. > :12:39.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:40. > :12:42.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:43. > :12:47.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:48. > :12:49.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:50. > :12:56.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:57. > :13:03.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:04. > :13:04.are in the interests of local people.
:13:05. > :13:07.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:08. > :13:08.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:09. > :13:15.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:16. > :13:20.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:21. > :13:23.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:24. > :13:41.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:42. > :13:44.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:45. > :13:49.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:50. > :13:53.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:54. > :13:56.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:57. > :14:00.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:01. > :14:04.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:05. > :14:08.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:09. > :14:12.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:13. > :14:17.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:18. > :14:24.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:25. > :14:30.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:31. > :14:33.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:34. > :14:41.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:42. > :14:47.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:48. > :14:51.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:52. > :14:55.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:56. > :14:58.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:14:59. > :15:04.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:05. > :15:08.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:09. > :15:13.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:14. > :15:17.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:18. > :15:23.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:24. > :15:25.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:26. > :15:29.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:30. > :15:34.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:35. > :15:39.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:40. > :15:46.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:47. > :15:53.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:54. > :15:59.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:16:00. > :16:03.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:04. > :16:09.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:10. > :16:14.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:15. > :16:20.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:21. > :16:24.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:25. > :16:29.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:30. > :16:33.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:34. > :16:38.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:39. > :16:41.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:42. > :16:47.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:48. > :16:54.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:55. > :16:59.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:17:00. > :17:03.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:04. > :17:07.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:08. > :17:12.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:13. > :17:19.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:20. > :17:25.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:26. > :17:30.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:31. > :17:35.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:36. > :17:40.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:41. > :17:47.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:48. > :17:58.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:17:59. > :18:04.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:05. > :18:08.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:09. > :18:14.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:15. > :18:19.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:20. > :18:24.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:25. > :18:27.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:28. > :18:34.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:35. > :18:46.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:47. > :18:49.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:50. > :18:58.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:18:59. > :19:03.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:04. > :19:06.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:07. > :19:11.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:12. > :19:16.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:17. > :19:19.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:20. > :19:23.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:24. > :19:29.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:30. > :19:32.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:33. > :19:35.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:36. > :19:40.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:41. > :19:45.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:46. > :19:50.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:51. > :19:54.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:55. > :20:00.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:01. > :20:04.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:05. > :20:07.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:08. > :20:17.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:18. > :20:21.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:22. > :20:27.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:28. > :20:32.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:33. > :20:37.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:38. > :20:42.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:43. > :20:49.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:50. > :20:55.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:56. > :21:02.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:03. > :21:06.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:07. > :21:10.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:11. > :21:14.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:15. > :21:20.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:21. > :21:27.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:28. > :21:31.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:32. > :21:35.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:36. > :21:39.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:40. > :21:44.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:45. > :21:47.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:48. > :21:52.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:53. > :21:55.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:56. > :22:03.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:04. > :22:09.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:10. > :22:12.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:13. > :22:16.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:17. > :22:20.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:21. > :22:24.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:25. > :22:28.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:29. > :22:32.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:33. > :22:39.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:40. > :22:46.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:47. > :22:52.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:53. > :22:56.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:57. > :23:00.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:01. > :23:05.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:06. > :23:08.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:09. > :23:11.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:12. > :23:15.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:16. > :23:20.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:21. > :23:23.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:24. > :23:29.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:30. > :23:33.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:34. > :23:39.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:40. > :23:45.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:46. > :23:49.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:50. > :23:53.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:54. > :23:58.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:23:59. > :24:02.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:03. > :24:07.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:08. > :24:13.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:14. > :24:18.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:19. > :24:24.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:25. > :24:29.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:30. > :24:35.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:36. > :24:39.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:40. > :24:43.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:44. > :24:46.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:47. > :24:53.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:54. > :24:55.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:56. > :25:00.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:01. > :25:05.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:06. > :25:09.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:10. > :25:11.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:12. > :25:14.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:15. > :25:16.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:17. > :25:19.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:20. > :25:22.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:23. > :25:25.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:26. > :25:27.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:28. > :25:30.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:31. > :25:34.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:35. > :25:37.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:38. > :25:40.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:41. > :25:42.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:43. > :25:49.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:50. > :25:51.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:52. > :25:53.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:54. > :25:56.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:57. > :25:59.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:00. > :26:03.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:04. > :26:05.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:06. > :26:07.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:08. > :26:13.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:14. > :26:16.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:17. > :26:20.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:21. > :26:24.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:25. > :26:27.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:28. > :26:31.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:32. > :26:34.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:35. > :26:39.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:40. > :26:43.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:44. > :26:46.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:47. > :26:48."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:49. > :26:56.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:57. > :26:59.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:00. > :27:03.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:04. > :27:05.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:06. > :27:17.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:18. > :27:22.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:23. > :27:29.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:30. > :27:32.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:33. > :27:37.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:38. > :27:43.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:44. > :27:50.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:51. > :27:57.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:58. > :28:01.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:02. > :28:06.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:07. > :28:10.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:11. > :28:18.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:19. > :28:24.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:25. > :28:28.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:29. > :28:33.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:34. > :28:38.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:39. > :28:41.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:42. > :28:46.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:47. > :28:50.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:51. > :28:55.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:56. > :28:59.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:00. > :29:05.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:06. > :29:09.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:10. > :29:13.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:14. > :29:16.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:17. > :29:25.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:26. > :29:29.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:30. > :29:33.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:34. > :29:38.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:39. > :29:42.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:43. > :29:48.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:49. > :29:52.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:53. > :29:55.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:56. > :29:59.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:00. > :30:05.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:06. > :30:10.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:11. > :30:16.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:17. > :30:20.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:21. > :30:24.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:25. > :30:28.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:29. > :30:30.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:31. > :30:40.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:41. > :30:44.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:45. > :30:46.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:47. > :30:49.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:50. > :30:54.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:55. > :30:58.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:30:59. > :31:01.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:02. > :31:05.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:06. > :31:09.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:10. > :31:16.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:17. > :31:18.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:19. > :31:24.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:25. > :31:27.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:28. > :31:30.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:31. > :31:36.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:37. > :31:43.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:44. > :31:50.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:51. > :31:53.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:54. > :32:00.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:01. > :32:06.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:07. > :32:09.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:10. > :32:16.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:17. > :32:20.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:21. > :32:25.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:26. > :32:31.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:32. > :32:42.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:43. > :32:50.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:51. > :32:55.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:56. > :32:59.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:33:00. > :33:03.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:04. > :33:09.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:10. > :33:19.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:20. > :33:22.that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying
:33:23. > :33:32.attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:33. > :33:36.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:37. > :33:42.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:43. > :33:46.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:47. > :33:51.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:52. > :34:03.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:04. > :34:07.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:08. > :34:16.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:17. > :34:27.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:28. > :34:32.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:33. > :34:36.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:37. > :34:45.I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.
:34:46. > :34:51.Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The
:34:52. > :34:55.central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a
:34:56. > :35:00.destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if
:35:01. > :35:06.it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be
:35:07. > :35:09.undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on
:35:10. > :35:13.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:14. > :35:19.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:20. > :35:24.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:25. > :35:26.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:27. > :35:30.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:31. > :35:36.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:37. > :35:43.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:44. > :35:50.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:51. > :35:53.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:54. > :36:00.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:01. > :36:03.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:04. > :36:09.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:10. > :36:13.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:14. > :36:17.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:18. > :36:26.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:27. > :36:29.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:30. > :36:38.answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and
:36:39. > :36:44.French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it
:36:45. > :36:48.not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it
:36:49. > :36:52.would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I
:36:53. > :36:55.think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't
:36:56. > :36:59.been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in
:37:00. > :37:02.Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.
:37:03. > :37:07.They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic
:37:08. > :37:11.process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen
:37:12. > :37:18.suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the
:37:19. > :37:23.government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to
:37:24. > :37:32.listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,
:37:33. > :37:37.as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second
:37:38. > :37:40.referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it
:37:41. > :37:47.there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have
:37:48. > :37:50.eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!
:37:51. > :37:52.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:53. > :38:02.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:03. > :38:04.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics East.
:38:05. > :38:07.Later in the programme, the devolution deal
:38:08. > :38:10.for Cambridgeshire and Peterborough goes through, after all of the local
:38:11. > :38:17.Getting those seven councils together to face the problems
:38:18. > :38:19.that the city and the county faces - tackling affordable housing,
:38:20. > :38:21.sorting out transport issues and equality issues
:38:22. > :38:26.on a bigger geography - is right for our residents.
:38:27. > :38:32.What hope is there for our rural bus services in
:38:33. > :38:37.Here with me today, Shadow Transport Minister
:38:38. > :38:40.and MP for Cambridge, Daniel Zeichner,
:38:41. > :38:43.and Ian Stewart, Conservative MP for Milton Keynes,
:38:44. > :38:45.who is parliamentary private secretary to Liam Fox,
:38:46. > :38:51.So let's start with the Autumn Statement,
:38:52. > :38:53.the first since the vote to leave the EU.
:38:54. > :38:56.The economy may be slowing down, but there was some good
:38:57. > :39:04.Business rate relief for rural areas is going up from 50% to 100%,
:39:05. > :39:08.which could mean an extra ?2,000 a year for some businesses.
:39:09. > :39:12.And there is another ?2 billion nationally for research spending,
:39:13. > :39:16.which may reassure science and technology firms in this region,
:39:17. > :39:20.who get much of their funding from the EU at the moment.
:39:21. > :39:23.More money was announced for broadband, too -
:39:24. > :39:28.?1 billion nationally to help reach "not spots".
:39:29. > :39:30.But road and rail were the main winners.
:39:31. > :39:33.The Chancellor confirmed millions of pounds to transport links
:39:34. > :39:36.between Cambridge and Oxford via Milton Keynes.
:39:37. > :39:41.110 million is going towards developing the east-west rail link.
:39:42. > :39:44.And Philip Hammond promised ?27 million to make the case
:39:45. > :39:47.for a road expressway along what he called
:39:48. > :39:53."a transformational tech corridor" between the two university cities,
:39:54. > :39:57.a development that has already proved controversial in the Commons.
:39:58. > :40:00.Mr Speaker, this Autumn Statement is a statement for the elite.
:40:01. > :40:03.The Chancellor said that Oxford and Cambridge expressway will become
:40:04. > :40:07.a "transformational tech corridor", drawing on the world-class research
:40:08. > :40:11.strengths of our two best-known universities.
:40:12. > :40:15.I think the honourable lady fell into the trap
:40:16. > :40:20.of believing this rather stale, antiquated class-war rhetoric
:40:21. > :40:26.that she gets from the leadership of her party.
:40:27. > :40:29.I mean, the Oxford to Cambridge expressway will benefit places
:40:30. > :40:41.I think the point that Valerie was making is that, yes,
:40:42. > :40:43.it is good that we are getting these transport improvements,
:40:44. > :40:46.but what about the people who are really struggling to get
:40:47. > :40:49.by on the estates in Cambridge, who are seeing their benefits cut,
:40:50. > :40:53.There are people on disability allowance having to live on very
:40:54. > :41:00.You have been making the case for more money for science
:41:01. > :41:04.in Cambridge for a long time, so now you have got it.
:41:05. > :41:06.Absolutely, and that I certainly welcome, the extra money
:41:07. > :41:11.But the key issue is, why is it that people
:41:12. > :41:14.who are struggling at the moment should be having to struggle
:41:15. > :41:17.And that is why this is an unfair Autumn Statement -
:41:18. > :41:21.it is not helping people at the bottom.
:41:22. > :41:23.Ian Stewart, I mean, Milton Keynes was mentioned
:41:24. > :41:27.as benefiting from this Oxford-Cambridge road,
:41:28. > :41:32.Absolutely, and I've been campaigning for the east-west
:41:33. > :41:37.This won't just be a local transport project, this will be a key part
:41:38. > :41:46.And the BCR, the benefit cost ratio of this project,
:41:47. > :41:49.it is something like six to one, so it will be an enormous boost
:41:50. > :41:56.Yes, benefiting Oxford, yes, benefiting Cambridge, but also
:41:57. > :42:01.And it will unlock a lot of housing development
:42:02. > :42:08.so I was very, very pleased with this announcement.
:42:09. > :42:11.You must have a lot of people in Milton Keynes who are struggling,
:42:12. > :42:16.Do you think it was an elitist Autumn Statement?
:42:17. > :42:18.No, I think it was an Autumn Statement that was very
:42:19. > :42:21.cleverly focused on getting our economy match-fit.
:42:22. > :42:24.And there is going to be a lot of economic turbulence
:42:25. > :42:27.in the world going forward, and we need to make sure we've got
:42:28. > :42:30.the resilience, we've got the skills, and we are investing
:42:31. > :42:33.in the productive part of our economy.
:42:34. > :42:36.We need to close the productivity gap we have with some
:42:37. > :42:40.So I was very pleased that there was a specific focus
:42:41. > :42:43.on infrastructure and other areas, which will obviously
:42:44. > :42:48.This science money, as I say, you have been
:42:49. > :42:51.going on about for a long time - surely the more successful
:42:52. > :42:54.Cambridge is, the more successful this region is,
:42:55. > :42:56.and that money trickles down to the poorest in society.
:42:57. > :43:01.No, trickle-down absolutely does not work, and that is part of the reason
:43:02. > :43:03.we have seen what has happened with Brexit and with Trump,
:43:04. > :43:05.actually because trickle-down does not work.
:43:06. > :43:07.And actually this was a really rather...
:43:08. > :43:11.It wasn't nearly bold enough, this Autumn Statement.
:43:12. > :43:13.We have actually lifted up our investment in research
:43:14. > :43:20.and development from 1.7% of GDP to 1.8%, which isn't good,
:43:21. > :43:26.but when you look at the rest of the world, where it is getting
:43:27. > :43:30.where it is getting closer to 3%, this was not enough for the kind
:43:31. > :43:34.You want to just say anything about that and then we will move on?
:43:35. > :43:36.Well, we are still dealing with the legacy of debt
:43:37. > :43:38.that we inherited from the past Labour Government.
:43:39. > :43:40.But what we are balancing within those constraints
:43:41. > :43:42.is carefully targeting investments in the productive
:43:43. > :43:47.Well, after months of debate and argument, we now know devolution
:43:48. > :43:49.for Cambridgeshire and Peterborough will happen and happen soon.
:43:50. > :43:52.Power and money will be transferred from Whitehall and there will be
:43:53. > :44:00.There was talk of a deal involving Suffolk and Norfolk,
:44:01. > :44:05.Cambridgeshire was tempted back to the table with the promise
:44:06. > :44:11.The green light was given to go it alone this summer.
:44:12. > :44:13.This week, the last council to say yes, Cambridge City,
:44:14. > :44:19.We are part of a county geography which has always been a bit
:44:20. > :44:23.more blue than other, and we have to stand up
:44:24. > :44:26.for Cambridge particularly because Cambridge is the centre
:44:27. > :44:29.of the growth, so the Government wanted to Cambridge in the deal,
:44:30. > :44:32.and that is why we got such a good offer on housing.
:44:33. > :44:36.We need now to work together because the geography
:44:37. > :44:39.of Cambridgeshire means that all of our problems have to be
:44:40. > :44:43.Certainly for the future, Cambridge cannot cope with the level
:44:44. > :44:50.We actually want to work with others to share the benefits and to share
:44:51. > :44:56.Well, the new authority will start work in February,
:44:57. > :44:58.with the first mayor being elected in May.
:44:59. > :45:03.In the meantime, the leader of Cambridgeshire County Council
:45:04. > :45:07.will be interim chairman of the shadow combined authority.
:45:08. > :45:09.He is councillor Steve Count and he's here now.
:45:10. > :45:15.It is an interesting question and it is one I have been
:45:16. > :45:18.I'm still actually thinking about that.
:45:19. > :45:21.So that is quite close to a yes, isn't it?
:45:22. > :45:26.We are still in the process but I think the important thing
:45:27. > :45:29.here is that the people of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough
:45:30. > :45:31.will ultimately get to decide, whoever that might be,
:45:32. > :45:34.and I think that the task in front of that mayor is a complicated task,
:45:35. > :45:39.but it will make a difference in peoples lives.
:45:40. > :45:42.It has been quite a long process, before you got to this?
:45:43. > :45:45.And it was difficult to get Cambridge city on board.
:45:46. > :45:48.Is that a political argument or is that an economic argument?
:45:49. > :45:50.Cambridge city wasn't the only authority that actually walked
:45:51. > :45:54.In fact, I would say that virtually every authority at some time walked
:45:55. > :45:57.away and said it was not good enough for them.
:45:58. > :46:02.That whole journey has taken a number of years now,
:46:03. > :46:05.two or three years, but where we are now
:46:06. > :46:09.it is a cracking deal for all of us and that is why we have signed
:46:10. > :46:13.Do you ever wished that you had gone in with Norfolk and Suffolk?
:46:14. > :46:15.In retrospect, I am very glad of where we are now.
:46:16. > :46:18.I think that fine tuning us and helping us to unite over
:46:19. > :46:22.what was a common economic than refer many of us actually
:46:23. > :46:26.But what we will do in the future is find ways to work
:46:27. > :46:29.over our borders, because a lot of the investment decisions
:46:30. > :46:42.Were you one of those who always accepted the need for an elected
:46:43. > :46:45.mayor, or did you change your mind as you went along?
:46:46. > :46:48.Where I have been, and I think a lot of people on this journey,
:46:49. > :46:52.And, are you sure you want a mayor for this?
:46:53. > :46:56.And it was always said to us, if you want a serious deal,
:46:57. > :47:00.So we kept saying, what does a serious deal look like?
:47:01. > :47:03.And eventually we got to a place where we are saying,
:47:04. > :47:07.if that is what you are offering us, then we are happy to have a mayor.
:47:08. > :47:09.But, remember, we did go out to the people with the consultation
:47:10. > :47:12.and the people said, we have looked at the entire deal.
:47:13. > :47:15.It involves all of these fantastic benefits, so, yes,
:47:16. > :47:19.Now, he is saying, Ian Stewart, that actually he would
:47:20. > :47:21.like to welcome in people from outside the boundary.
:47:22. > :47:23.And that actually is where you come in with devolution,
:47:24. > :47:26.because you would like this arm between Cambridge and Oxford
:47:27. > :47:29.Absolutely, because if you look at that corridor, you're going
:47:30. > :47:32.to have a lot of infrastructure investment on the new housing,
:47:33. > :47:34.covering many different local authorities, and indeed regions -
:47:35. > :47:36.Milton Keynes and Oxford being in the South East,
:47:37. > :47:38.South Northamptonshire being in the East Midlands
:47:39. > :47:40.and Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire in the east of England.
:47:41. > :47:43.I think we are going to have to construct some new authority.
:47:44. > :47:46.I don't have the precise model in mind but some interlocking model
:47:47. > :47:49.that will allow all of these authorities to be able to cooperate
:47:50. > :47:57.on developing infrastructure that will be of mutual benefit.
:47:58. > :48:00.So I very much look forward to working with the new combined area,
:48:01. > :48:03.with all of the existing bodies, and taking forward the conclusions
:48:04. > :48:12.I mean, I congratulate my colleagues on
:48:13. > :48:14.Cambridge City Council and Lewis Herbert for extracting
:48:15. > :48:17.?17 million for a much-needed council housing,
:48:18. > :48:20.but you look at all of this and we are going to end up
:48:21. > :48:22.with a situation where we are going to have a
:48:23. > :48:25.directly elected mayor and we've got county council elections next year,
:48:26. > :48:27.and an elected leader of the county council.
:48:28. > :48:29.Frankly, Brussels looks like a model of simplicity and
:48:30. > :48:37.So, do you not agree with devolution or do you not agree with this
:48:38. > :48:42.Devolution in general, yes, than you a regional level,
:48:43. > :48:45.and that is what Labour had and that is what Labour
:48:46. > :48:48.will do in the future because this will all have to be completely torn
:48:49. > :48:52.But the point is that the old regional boundaries have got nothing
:48:53. > :48:55.to do with this Oxford-Cambridge corridor, which as I have said
:48:56. > :48:59.that is why I am saying we need to construct a new
:49:00. > :49:01.model that looks at the new economic area
:49:02. > :49:03.that has nothing to do with the boundaries
:49:04. > :49:07.But they are going to have to make it work.
:49:08. > :49:09.What do you make of these two arguments?
:49:10. > :49:12.I think it is quite sad that people are trying to pull apart what we
:49:13. > :49:15.have already managed to construct over a long period of time.
:49:16. > :49:17.This is what the local people want, what the
:49:18. > :49:23.local politicians have built upon what the Government has agreed to.
:49:24. > :49:27.Here is a local politician who has not agree with it.
:49:28. > :49:29.No, he has not, and there are six MPs my area
:49:30. > :49:31.as Cambridgeshire County Council leader, not just one.
:49:32. > :49:35.Not just one way that we are going to accommodate all of them and work
:49:36. > :49:39.But take the talk about the Milton Keynes, Oxford and that's...
:49:40. > :49:41.We have already formed, not myself but I am on it,
:49:42. > :49:43.the Economic Heartland Alliance, which is actually working together
:49:44. > :49:47.very well and that will be one of the mechanisms that we see how
:49:48. > :49:49.we can work together even better in the future.
:49:50. > :49:54.He is saying that the MPs, you are alone in that,
:49:55. > :49:58.You should ask most of the other MPs who are of the Conservative
:49:59. > :50:00.persuasion, who are not on the Government payroll -
:50:01. > :50:02.they are pretty unhappy about this too.
:50:03. > :50:04.But Cambridge doesn't just look to the east,
:50:05. > :50:06.Cambridge looks to London as well, and that is the point.
:50:07. > :50:08.But he is saying to look to the west.
:50:09. > :50:11.East-west, but it also looks north-south.
:50:12. > :50:14.The links with London are crucial as well.
:50:15. > :50:16.So, basically, I don't think this model works at all.
:50:17. > :50:22.I think you need to pay attention to what is actually going on
:50:23. > :50:26.We have the M11, the London Stansted Cambridge corridor...
:50:27. > :50:29.If we look at the east we have the Cambridge to
:50:30. > :50:33.Norwich A11 Tech corridor, and then we look out to the west,
:50:34. > :50:42.Well, you see, this is exactly the work that the infrastructure
:50:43. > :50:46.It is actually headed by someone from your
:50:47. > :50:51.They are looking at how we can put together the
:50:52. > :50:53.different bits of governance across this corridor
:50:54. > :50:59.It will work in conjunction with these new bodies.
:51:00. > :51:01.It goes on causing argument and debate.
:51:02. > :51:07.Well, any new mayor will have significant new powers and more
:51:08. > :51:09.money to deal with things like transport, including buses.
:51:10. > :51:16.Since 2010, 45% of bus subsidies in this region have been cut.
:51:17. > :51:20.Add those cuts up and it comes to ?13 million.
:51:21. > :51:21.Luton and Southend have cut subsidies completely.
:51:22. > :51:24.And Bedford, Milton Keynes and Northamptonshire have
:51:25. > :51:35.The aim of the Bus Services Bill, which is going through Parliament
:51:36. > :51:37.at the moment, is to improve services for things
:51:38. > :51:41.But some of the new powers will only be available to elected mayors.
:51:42. > :51:43.At the moment, we only have one of those.
:51:44. > :51:52.It is a sight villages in Murrow see only once a week,
:51:53. > :51:56.the number 390 bus coming to take them for their weekly shop.
:51:57. > :52:00.It runs between Wisbech and Peterborough,
:52:01. > :52:05.This service does not pay for itself, because so many
:52:06. > :52:10.The council subsidises the route, but with increasingly tight budgets,
:52:11. > :52:15.Cambridgeshire County Council has considered cutting the funding.
:52:16. > :52:17.I do not drive since my husband died.
:52:18. > :52:22.I do not drive and the bus is a lifeline for me.
:52:23. > :52:25.It is the only bus to Peterborough from where we live in Murrow.
:52:26. > :52:32.And I do my food shopping, so I just need the bus
:52:33. > :52:37.There are people in the village who never go anywhere, really.
:52:38. > :52:41.And OK, it is only Peterborough, but it is a larger city.
:52:42. > :52:44.You have got the cathedral, and you have got a mixture of shops,
:52:45. > :52:48.you have got people from all over the world, and it provides
:52:49. > :52:58.This service may be safe for now, but with increasingly tight budgets,
:52:59. > :53:00.there is no doubt that all of our councils will consider
:53:01. > :53:03.making more cuts to bus services in the future.
:53:04. > :53:06.That is bad news for the rural communities that rely on them.
:53:07. > :53:10.Bus travel remains the most popular form of public transport,
:53:11. > :53:13.so could the Bus Services Bill provide an opportunity for a rethink
:53:14. > :53:16.about how they are operated and paid for?
:53:17. > :53:19.The bill aims to increase passenger numbers and improve services
:53:20. > :53:22.through measures like allowing councils to partner with local bus
:53:23. > :53:25.operators and have more involvement over routes,
:53:26. > :53:28.integrated ticketing like Oyster cards, which would make one ticket
:53:29. > :53:36.and areas with an elected mayor will get powers to bring in bus
:53:37. > :53:42.franchising and invite operators to bid for routes.
:53:43. > :53:45.But that rules out areas that do not have the devolution.
:53:46. > :53:54.Some people might think, yeah, actually, we want an elected mayor,
:53:55. > :53:57.but people in other areas might think, no, we don't really want this
:53:58. > :53:59.extra layer of Government, and we think that no matter
:54:00. > :54:02.whether or not you have an elected mayor you should be able
:54:03. > :54:05.to depend on a regular, frequent and affordable bus service.
:54:06. > :54:07.Suffolk County Council has cut its spending
:54:08. > :54:13.But they are hoping that this bill will help them improve bus services
:54:14. > :54:14.without having to pay out more money.
:54:15. > :54:20.The bus bill does give you that opportunity you have more data
:54:21. > :54:24.available to the local operators, so we can have through ticketing.
:54:25. > :54:31.We can actually have more visibility of life timescales on the buses,
:54:32. > :54:34.and actually then you actually can actually start placing orders
:54:35. > :54:36.on these sort of things, and book a ticket and actually
:54:37. > :54:40.place a ticket and use this on the vehicle.
:54:41. > :54:44.Arriving back home laden with shopping bags, these passengers
:54:45. > :54:48.have a rather more simple hope for the bill - that the bus that has
:54:49. > :54:52.become their lifeline will not disappear.
:54:53. > :54:54.Daniel Zeichner, you have become quite a bus fan over
:54:55. > :55:02.If you are in a rural area and you rely on the bus,
:55:03. > :55:05.and the only people using it have a bus pass, it doesn't pay.
:55:06. > :55:10.Basically, when the buses were privatised by the Conservatives
:55:11. > :55:14.30 years ago, London was left different and it was regulated.
:55:15. > :55:16.And the London bus system has succeeded since then.
:55:17. > :55:21.But the London system succeeds because it has got lots of people
:55:22. > :55:24.using it because it is very busy and it is very difficult
:55:25. > :55:29.But also it allows the authorities to cross-subsidise.
:55:30. > :55:32.In the areas on the outer edges of London, It is exactly
:55:33. > :55:36.That is because most of our region has cities like Cambridge
:55:37. > :55:40.So it will put all these things right?
:55:41. > :55:42.Well, it will not unfortunately because the Government does not
:55:43. > :55:46.want to make those powers available to any area that does not
:55:47. > :55:49.So I have been talking to councillors in Hertfordshire
:55:50. > :55:51.and Essex who aren't really disappointed that there will not be
:55:52. > :55:59.Now, the bill started in the House of Lords.
:56:00. > :56:00.Labour has introduced positive amendments.
:56:01. > :56:03.Now, the bill, when it comes to the Commons in a few weeks' time,
:56:04. > :56:06.if it is passed as it is now than we will have those powers
:56:07. > :56:10.but I fear that the Government will try another overturn those changes.
:56:11. > :56:11.This elected mayor thing causes problems wherever
:56:12. > :56:15.Why is the Government so wedded to the elected mayors?
:56:16. > :56:17.Personally, I am more flexible on what the Government's arrangement
:56:18. > :56:23.I think the important thing to realise with this buses bill,
:56:24. > :56:26.it gives lots of flex abilities, because different parts
:56:27. > :56:30.of the country need different structures.
:56:31. > :56:34.Every part of the country, if they have got rural areas
:56:35. > :56:36.they need buses for people who do not...
:56:37. > :56:38.Granted, but the structure that works in a cathedral city
:56:39. > :56:41.like Cambridge or Oxford is different to the model that works
:56:42. > :56:44.in my area like Milton Keynes, which is a much more complex
:56:45. > :56:52.system, which is different to what works in London.
:56:53. > :56:55.And the bill which I think as a whole commands quite a wide
:56:56. > :56:57.cross-party support is designed to give that flexibility.
:56:58. > :56:59.So, would you give those powers to local authorities,
:57:00. > :57:08.Think it is something I'm personally happy to look at.
:57:09. > :57:11.I sit on the transport select committee, and we just
:57:12. > :57:14.I think this will be an evolutionary process.
:57:15. > :57:17.As different models of devolution get set up around the country,
:57:18. > :57:19.I think this, through secondary legislation, this flexibility
:57:20. > :57:28.But there will be a lot of people who, while all of this is going on,
:57:29. > :57:30.will worry that they will not have a bus service.
:57:31. > :57:34.Well, what we want to see is to give each local area at the flexibility
:57:35. > :57:40.What we have also got to bear in mind going forward is that
:57:41. > :57:42.new technology will offer different solutions to this.
:57:43. > :57:51.On transport policy, there actually is a lot of good
:57:52. > :57:59.Well, I am very encouraged by what Ian is saying, and hoping
:58:00. > :58:02.that any non-confrontational way, we might be able to come
:58:03. > :58:05.to an agreement in the Commons on this, which would be
:58:06. > :58:10.But one thing I would finish by saying is that part
:58:11. > :58:14.of the problem is actually the amount of money that has been
:58:15. > :58:18.That is what has really cut the subsidy in rural areas.
:58:19. > :58:22.Our round-up of the political week now in 60 seconds
:58:23. > :58:34.The Prime Minister came to Cambridge to announce research and
:58:35. > :58:37.development investment to ensure that the country remains at the
:58:38. > :58:41.cutting edge of scientific discovery.
:58:42. > :58:52.What I've seen here at Cambridge is this
:58:53. > :58:55.excellent example of the knowledge base of the university coming
:58:56. > :59:00.Police and Crime Commissioners have warned that they will be asking for
:59:01. > :59:02.more money from council tax payers next year.
:59:03. > :59:04.They claimed they need extra cash to protect front line
:59:05. > :59:08.It is for them to tell me what they want from the police service.
:59:09. > :59:10.It is my responsibility to tell them the
:59:11. > :59:13.Major changes into health services have been published.
:59:14. > :59:15.Peterborough and pinching the hospitals are to merge.
:59:16. > :59:17.And in Essex, three hospitals in Basildon, Chelmsford and Southend
:59:18. > :59:20.could be completely reorganised, including accident and emergency
:59:21. > :59:23.And in the wake of the Trump victory, the MP for Chelmsford
:59:24. > :59:34.The best person to fill the vacancy for the ambassador to the United
:59:35. > :59:38.Kingdom next year would be Hillary Rodham Clinton.
:59:39. > :59:45.Though I suspect the last thing she'd want to do is be associated
:59:46. > :59:55.I saw him with a big rosette for her.
:59:56. > :00:00.Well, Simon wears a Hillary Clinton watch.
:00:01. > :00:04.What I wonder is whether Hillary Clinton wears a Simon Burns watch.
:00:05. > :00:07.Just one comment from both of you on the Trump thing.
:00:08. > :00:08.The President-elect Donald Trump, sorry.
:00:09. > :00:13.For me, what worries me most is America becoming more
:00:14. > :00:16.protectionist at a time that we need to be remaking the case
:00:17. > :00:21.So I hope that is going to be one item that is top of the agenda.
:00:22. > :00:27.We agree on some things but I think it is a reflection
:00:28. > :00:30.of a very uncertain world that we are in the moment,
:00:31. > :00:33.and I would urge the Government to think again about Brexit
:00:34. > :00:41.such a dangerous situation from the United States.
:00:42. > :00:46.Thank you, both of you, for being with us today.
:00:47. > :00:50.You can keep in touch via our website.
:00:51. > :00:52.We are back at the same time next week,
:00:53. > :00:55.but, for now, from all of us, back to Andrew in the studio.
:00:56. > :01:00.article 15 noticed this served. We have got to make sure London is
:01:01. > :01:06.open. Thank you. Andrew, back to you.
:01:07. > :01:08.Is Theresa May serious about curbing executive pay?
:01:09. > :01:11.Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's successor as Ukip leader?
:01:12. > :01:17.And can the Lib Dems pull off a by-election upset in Richmond?
:01:18. > :01:41.So,,, on pay talk about the executive of what executives get
:01:42. > :01:43.compared to the average worker in the company, giving shareholders
:01:44. > :01:48.real power to vote down pay rises if they don't like them, which is
:01:49. > :01:57.pretty much what Ed Miliband proposed in the general election in
:01:58. > :02:01.2015. Is she serious about this? She is very serious, and the Tory party
:02:02. > :02:04.probably does owe Ed Miliband an apology for trashing his ideas and
:02:05. > :02:08.2015 and then putting them all up for votes in November 20 16. She is
:02:09. > :02:11.very serious, and this all comes back to her desperate fear that
:02:12. > :02:18.unless capitalism reforms itself and becomes more acceptable to the just
:02:19. > :02:21.about managing or even 78% of the country who are not earning vast
:02:22. > :02:26.wealth at anywhere near the figures you see in the City, serious things
:02:27. > :02:31.will happen and the political sense of trust will implode. She has
:02:32. > :02:35.already been bartered down by her own Cabinet on this. She wanted to
:02:36. > :02:42.go further and make workers on the board mandatory. They have managed
:02:43. > :02:46.to stop that. What will her fallback position be on workers on the board
:02:47. > :02:52.if she is not able to get it into some claw? We would like to have
:02:53. > :02:57.workers on the board, but whatever they do on the board there will have
:02:58. > :03:02.no voting powers on the board. When you look at what was leaked out over
:03:03. > :03:06.the weekend, that we should know the ratio of the top to the average and
:03:07. > :03:11.that shareholders who own the company should determine, in the
:03:12. > :03:17.end, the highest-paid salaries, you kind of think, what could the
:03:18. > :03:23.possible objection be to any of that? Two things. One, I agree with
:03:24. > :03:29.Tom that she is deadly serious about this agenda and it comes under the
:03:30. > :03:32.banner, that sentence in the party conference speech about "It's time
:03:33. > :03:37.to focus on the good that government can do". She is by instinct more of
:03:38. > :03:41.an interventionist than Cameron and Osborne. But she is incredibly
:03:42. > :03:45.cautious, whether it is through the internal constraints of opposition
:03:46. > :03:52.within Cabinet, or her own small C Conservative caution in implementing
:03:53. > :03:55.this stuff. Part of the problem is the practicalities. George Osborne
:03:56. > :03:59.commission will Hutton to do a report which came out with similar
:04:00. > :04:04.proposals, which were never implemented. It is quite hard to
:04:05. > :04:09.enforce. It will antagonise business leaders when she's to woo them again
:04:10. > :04:13.in this Brexit furore. So there are problems with it. And judging by
:04:14. > :04:18.what has happened so far, my guess is that the aim will be genuinely
:04:19. > :04:21.bold and interesting, and the implementation incredibly cautious.
:04:22. > :04:28.Does it matter if she annoys some business leaders? Isn't that part of
:04:29. > :04:32.her brand? Will there be problems on the Tory backbenches with it? I
:04:33. > :04:35.think there will be and I think it does matter at this sensitive time
:04:36. > :04:40.for when we are positioning ourselves as a country and whether
:04:41. > :04:43.we are going to brand ourselves as a great city of business, implementing
:04:44. > :04:47.quite interventionist policies. Any suggestion that the government can
:04:48. > :04:51.control how much the top earners get, I think would be received in a
:04:52. > :04:54.hostile way. What would be wrong with the shareholders, who own the
:04:55. > :04:59.company, determining the pay of the higher hands, the executives?
:05:00. > :05:03.Morally, you can absolutely make that argument but to business
:05:04. > :05:08.leaders, they will not like it. Ultimately, this will not come down
:05:09. > :05:11.to more than a row of beans. There was a huge debate about whether
:05:12. > :05:17.there should be quotas of women on boards. In the end, that never
:05:18. > :05:22.happened. All we get is figures. But quotas of women, for which there is
:05:23. > :05:27.a case and a case against too, that was a government mandate. This is
:05:28. > :05:29.not, this is simply empowering shareholders who own the company to
:05:30. > :05:38.determine the pay of the people they hire. There is a strong moral
:05:39. > :05:44.argument for it. Strong economic argument. But the Tory backbenchers
:05:45. > :05:47.will not like this. The downside is that this is a world where companies
:05:48. > :05:51.are thinking about upping sticks to Europe. No, they say they are
:05:52. > :05:58.thinking of that. Not one has done it yet. Others have made massive
:05:59. > :06:04.investments in this country. But is it not an incentive for those making
:06:05. > :06:10.these threats to actually do it? In Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated
:06:11. > :06:15.by Brussels. It is a vivid way of showing you are addressing the issue
:06:16. > :06:23.of inequality. I think she will go with it, but let's move on to Ukip.
:06:24. > :06:27.I think we will get the result tomorrow. There are the top three
:06:28. > :06:33.candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans and on my right, John Reid
:06:34. > :06:40.Evans. One of them will be the next leader. Who is going to win? It is
:06:41. > :06:43.widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall and is probably the outcome that the
:06:44. > :06:47.Labour Party fears most. Paul Nuttall is a very effective
:06:48. > :06:53.communicator. He is not a household name, far from it, but people will
:06:54. > :06:57.begin to learn more about him and find that he is actually quite a
:06:58. > :07:03.strong leader. Can people Ukip together again after this shambolic
:07:04. > :07:10.period since the referendum? If anyone can, he can. And his brand of
:07:11. > :07:16.working collar, Northern Ukip is the thing that will work for them. Do
:07:17. > :07:19.you think he is the favourite? It would be amazing if he doesn't win.
:07:20. > :07:24.His greatest problem will be getting Nigel Farage off his back. He is
:07:25. > :07:32.going on a speaking tour of North America. A long speaking tour. Ukip
:07:33. > :07:35.won this EU referendum. They had the chance to hoover up these
:07:36. > :07:40.discontented Labour voters in the north, and all he has done is
:07:41. > :07:43.associated with Ukip with Farage. But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip
:07:44. > :07:49.and will be glad to be hands of it. The bigger problem is money. If it
:07:50. > :07:55.is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know the results yet, but he is the
:07:56. > :07:58.favourite, if it is him, I would suggest that that is the result
:07:59. > :08:03.Labour is frightened of most. To be honest, I think they are frightened
:08:04. > :08:08.of Ukip whatever the result. Possibly with good cause. The reason
:08:09. > :08:12.I qualify that is that what you call a shambles over the summer has been
:08:13. > :08:18.something that goes beyond Monty Python in its absurdity and madness.
:08:19. > :08:24.That calls into question whether it can function as a political party
:08:25. > :08:29.when you have what has gone on. The number of leaders itself has been an
:08:30. > :08:35.act of madness. In a context which should be fantastic for them. They
:08:36. > :08:39.have won a referendum. There is a debate about what form Brexit should
:08:40. > :08:43.take, it is a dream for them, and they have gone bonkers. If he can
:08:44. > :08:46.turn it around, I agree that he is a powerful media communicator, and
:08:47. > :08:52.then it is a threat to Labour. But he has got to show that first.
:08:53. > :08:57.Indeed. The by-election in Richmond in south-west London, called by Zac
:08:58. > :09:01.Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it turned out to be a by-election about
:09:02. > :09:06.Heathrow, or has it turned into a by-election, which is what the Lib
:09:07. > :09:10.Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems
:09:11. > :09:13.win, they will turn it into an EU referendum. It seems incredibly
:09:14. > :09:19.close now. The Lib Dems are swamping Richmond. They had 1000 activists
:09:20. > :09:23.there yesterday. That is getting on for 100th of the population of the
:09:24. > :09:27.place! If the Lib Dems don't manage to win on Thursday and don't manage
:09:28. > :09:30.to turn it into an EU referendum despite all their efforts, it will
:09:31. > :09:39.probably be a disaster for the party. What do you hear, Isabel? I
:09:40. > :09:43.hear that the Lib Dems have absolutely swamped the constituency,
:09:44. > :09:49.but this may backfire. I saw a bit of this myself, living in Witney,
:09:50. > :09:55.when the Lib Dems also swamped and people began to get fed up of their
:09:56. > :09:58.aggressive tactics. I understand that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously
:09:59. > :10:07.optimistic that he will pull this one off. Quick stab at the result? I
:10:08. > :10:12.don't know. But we are entering a period when by-elections are
:10:13. > :10:15.acquiring significant again. If the Lib Dems were to make a game, it
:10:16. > :10:22.would breathe life into that near moribund party like nothing else.
:10:23. > :10:27.Similarly, other by-elections in this shapeless political world we
:10:28. > :10:30.are in are going to become significant. We don't know if we are
:10:31. > :10:32.covering it live on Thursday night yet because we have to find at the
:10:33. > :10:39.time they are going to declare. Richmond are quite late in
:10:40. > :10:45.declaring, but if it is in the early hours, that is fine. If it is on
:10:46. > :10:48.breakfast television, they be not. I want to show you this. Michael Gove
:10:49. > :10:54.was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. In the now notorious
:10:55. > :10:57.comment that I made, I was actually cut off in midstream, as politicians
:10:58. > :11:03.often. The point I made was not that all experts are that is nonsense.
:11:04. > :11:10.Expert engineers, doctors and physicists are not wrong. But there
:11:11. > :11:13.is a subclass of experts, particularly social scientists, who
:11:14. > :11:18.have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made. And the
:11:19. > :11:22.recession, which was predicted that we would have if we voted to leave,
:11:23. > :11:28.has gone like a puff of smoke. So economic experts, he talks about.
:11:29. > :11:31.The Chancellor has based all of his forward predictions in this Autumn
:11:32. > :11:39.Statement on the economic expert forecasters. The Office for Budget
:11:40. > :11:44.Responsibility has said it is 50-50, which is the toss of a coin. But
:11:45. > :11:49.what was he supposed to do? You would ideally have to have a Budget
:11:50. > :11:57.that had several sets of scenarios, and that is impossible. Crystal ball
:11:58. > :12:01.territory. But you do wonder if governments are right to do so much
:12:02. > :12:06.of their fiscal projections on the basis of forecasts which turn out to
:12:07. > :12:10.be wrong. They have nothing else to go on. The Treasury forecast is to
:12:11. > :12:15.be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast will prove not to be exact. As you
:12:16. > :12:19.say, they admitted that they are navigating through fog at the
:12:20. > :12:23.moment. But he also added that it was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit,
:12:24. > :12:30.even if you accept that these forecasts might be wrong, is causing
:12:31. > :12:36.such a level of uncertainty. He put the figure at 60 billion. That could
:12:37. > :12:44.come to haunt him. He hasn't got a clue. He admitted it. He said,
:12:45. > :12:47.Parliament mandates me to come up with something, so I am going to
:12:48. > :12:54.give you a number. But I wouldn't trust it if I were you, he basically
:12:55. > :12:56.said. I agree with you. The man who borrowed 122 billion more off the
:12:57. > :13:00.back of a coin toss was Philip Hammond. It begs the question, what
:13:01. > :13:03.does that say about the confidence Philip Hammond has in his own
:13:04. > :13:11.government's renegotiation? Not a huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond
:13:12. > :13:15.quoted the OBR figures. He basically said, this is uncertain and it looks
:13:16. > :13:21.bad, and on we go with it. It is a very interesting situation, he said.
:13:22. > :13:25.He was for Remain and he works in a department which regards it as a
:13:26. > :13:32.disaster, whatever everyone else thinks. I have just been told we are
:13:33. > :13:33.covering the by-election. We are part of the constitution.
:13:34. > :13:35.Jo Coburn will have more Daily Politics tomorrow
:13:36. > :13:39.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11.
:13:40. > :14:13.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:14. > :14:17.to signify the Africans who were here.
:14:18. > :14:44.The story of Henry VIII and his six wives