15/01/2017

:00:32. > :00:35.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36. > :00:39.Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:40. > :00:42.of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:43. > :00:45.We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:46. > :00:52.Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:53. > :00:55.As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:56. > :00:59.of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:01:00. > :01:05.Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:06. > :01:12.Here in the East: well, joins us live.

:01:13. > :01:15.Our councils struggling to meet the bill for social care.

:01:16. > :01:27.And Jeremy Corbyn tells us about his plans for farmers after Brexit.

:01:28. > :01:30.And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

:01:31. > :01:33.hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:34. > :01:41.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:42. > :01:47.So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

:01:48. > :01:50.in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

:01:51. > :01:54.and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

:01:55. > :01:57.Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:01:58. > :02:01.The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:02. > :02:05.gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:06. > :02:07.will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:08. > :02:12.of the single market and customs union.

:02:13. > :02:15.The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:16. > :02:17.they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:18. > :02:21.The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

:02:22. > :02:24.hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

:02:25. > :02:27.And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

:02:28. > :02:30.explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

:02:31. > :02:32.and call for an end to free movement.

:02:33. > :02:35.Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

:02:36. > :02:37.I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

:02:38. > :02:44.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

:02:45. > :02:49.Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:50. > :02:53.most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:54. > :02:59.But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:03:00. > :03:02.that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:03:03. > :03:07.the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:08. > :03:10.the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:11. > :03:15.basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:16. > :03:19.with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:20. > :03:22.stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:23. > :03:26.British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:27. > :03:30.ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:31. > :03:34.upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:35. > :03:38.position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:39. > :03:44.and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

:03:45. > :03:48.it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

:03:49. > :03:52.the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

:03:53. > :03:56.believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:03:57. > :04:00.resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:01. > :04:05.Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:06. > :04:09.negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

:04:10. > :04:12.really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

:04:13. > :04:18.fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

:04:19. > :04:23.whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:24. > :04:27.the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

:04:28. > :04:30.Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

:04:31. > :04:35.final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:36. > :04:41.Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

:04:42. > :04:45.Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:46. > :04:48.a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

:04:49. > :04:53.introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

:04:54. > :04:56.It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:57. > :05:00.servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:01. > :05:03.deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:04. > :05:10.the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:11. > :05:13.Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

:05:14. > :05:16.You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:17. > :05:18.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:19. > :05:25.of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

:05:26. > :05:29.it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:30. > :05:33.good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

:05:34. > :05:36.that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

:05:37. > :05:39.nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:40. > :05:44.best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:45. > :05:48.that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:49. > :05:51.union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

:05:52. > :05:55.package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

:05:56. > :05:59.better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:06:00. > :06:03.travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:06:04. > :06:07.Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:08. > :06:10.and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:11. > :06:13.the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:14. > :06:18.believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:19. > :06:25.for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:26. > :06:28.ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:29. > :06:33.continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:34. > :06:37.what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:38. > :06:41.Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:42. > :06:43.membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:44. > :06:50.amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:51. > :06:53.believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:54. > :06:57.I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:58. > :07:01.people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:07:02. > :07:06.individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:07. > :07:11.your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:12. > :07:16.freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:17. > :07:20.Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:21. > :07:23.don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:24. > :07:29.without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

:07:30. > :07:32.depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:33. > :07:37.white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:38. > :07:40.flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:41. > :07:44.corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:45. > :07:50.that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:51. > :07:56.members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:57. > :08:00.of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:08:01. > :08:03.many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:04. > :08:07.you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:08. > :08:10.aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:11. > :08:14.that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:15. > :08:18.very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:19. > :08:22.in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:23. > :08:28.answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:29. > :08:33.the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:34. > :08:37.deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:38. > :08:42.right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:43. > :08:45.you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

:08:46. > :08:49.afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:50. > :08:55.The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

:08:56. > :09:03.Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:04. > :09:07.the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:08. > :09:10.of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:11. > :09:14.only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:15. > :09:20.for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:21. > :09:25.that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:26. > :09:27.migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:28. > :09:31.that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:32. > :09:34.is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:35. > :09:38.customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:39. > :09:42.clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:43. > :09:45.don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:46. > :09:53.definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:54. > :09:55.is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:56. > :09:58.somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:09:59. > :10:03.hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:10:04. > :10:06.option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:07. > :10:09.personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:10. > :10:18.We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:19. > :10:21.on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:22. > :10:26.reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:27. > :10:29.possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:30. > :10:33.David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:34. > :10:38.Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:39. > :10:42.are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:43. > :10:48.rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:49. > :10:52.arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:53. > :10:56.encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:57. > :11:00.deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:01. > :11:04.service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:05. > :11:08.this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:09. > :11:11.you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:12. > :11:17.years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:18. > :11:20.to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:21. > :11:25.would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:26. > :11:30.What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:31. > :11:33.of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:34. > :11:39.machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:40. > :11:43.pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:44. > :11:48.you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:49. > :11:54.Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:55. > :11:58.European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:59. > :12:02.of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:03. > :12:06.these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:07. > :12:09.intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:10. > :12:14.what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:15. > :12:17.Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:18. > :12:20.markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:21. > :12:25.doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:26. > :12:28.it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:29. > :12:30.Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

:12:31. > :12:33.week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:34. > :12:35.enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:36. > :12:37.Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:38. > :12:40.could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:41. > :12:50.If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:51. > :12:52.The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:53. > :12:55.while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:56. > :12:56.a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:57. > :13:02.Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:03. > :13:06.It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:07. > :13:11.a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:12. > :13:14.They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:15. > :13:17.It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:18. > :13:26.a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:27. > :13:29.and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:30. > :13:31.which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:32. > :13:34.If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:35. > :13:35.that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:36. > :13:38.like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:39. > :13:44.To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:45. > :13:48.the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:49. > :13:51.publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:52. > :13:55.costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:56. > :13:58.It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:13:59. > :14:02.We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

:14:03. > :14:05.This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:06. > :14:10.of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:11. > :14:14.from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:15. > :14:19.It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:20. > :14:25.I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:26. > :14:26.you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:27. > :14:29.I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:30. > :14:32.there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:33. > :14:34.standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:35. > :14:37."Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:38. > :14:39.Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:40. > :14:48.We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:49. > :14:50.for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:51. > :14:53.They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:54. > :14:55.from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:56. > :15:04.a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:15:05. > :15:07.Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:08. > :15:12.Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:13. > :15:15.the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:16. > :15:21.doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:22. > :15:24.The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:25. > :15:26.There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:27. > :15:29.won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:30. > :15:33.are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:34. > :15:36.Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:37. > :15:37.through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:38. > :15:40.Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:41. > :15:43.when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:44. > :15:50.If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:51. > :15:55.we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:56. > :15:58.The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:59. > :15:59.since the Government launched its consultation

:16:00. > :16:02.In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:03. > :16:07.And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:08. > :16:11.a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:12. > :16:14.The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:15. > :16:20.One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:21. > :16:22.So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:23. > :16:31.I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:32. > :16:34.What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:35. > :16:39.on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:40. > :16:42.was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:43. > :16:45.regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:46. > :16:50.which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:51. > :16:54.then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:55. > :16:56.case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:57. > :17:01.The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:02. > :17:04.I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:05. > :17:08.about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:09. > :17:11.to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:12. > :17:14.But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:15. > :17:24.I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:25. > :17:27.Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:28. > :17:31.and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:32. > :17:40.Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:41. > :17:44.that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:45. > :17:49.press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:50. > :17:53.we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:54. > :17:57.into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:58. > :18:02.absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:03. > :18:07.like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:08. > :18:08.hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:09. > :18:35.means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:36. > :18:38.many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:39. > :18:40.does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:41. > :18:43.You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:44. > :18:46.People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:47. > :18:49.from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:50. > :18:53.but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:54. > :18:59.money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:19:00. > :19:03.from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:04. > :19:08.the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:09. > :19:11.because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:12. > :19:21.most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:22. > :19:26.the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:27. > :19:32.influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:33. > :19:36.lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:37. > :19:45.historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:46. > :19:50.family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:51. > :19:55.control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:56. > :19:59.the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:20:00. > :20:05.completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:06. > :20:08.wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:09. > :20:14.because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:15. > :20:19.curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:20. > :20:25.press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:26. > :20:29.Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:30. > :20:37.is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:38. > :20:43.tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:44. > :20:49.advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:50. > :20:54.Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:55. > :20:58.be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:59. > :21:02.press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:03. > :21:07.reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:08. > :21:09.selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:10. > :21:14.absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:15. > :21:19.Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:20. > :21:24.remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:25. > :21:31.He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:32. > :21:39.the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:40. > :21:55.do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:56. > :22:02.code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:03. > :22:06.be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:07. > :22:11.against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:12. > :22:17.wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:18. > :22:28.I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:29. > :22:36.wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:37. > :22:39.Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:40. > :22:44.people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:45. > :22:51.but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:52. > :22:54.have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:55. > :23:00.about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:23:01. > :23:06.possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:07. > :23:11.asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:12. > :23:17.the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:18. > :23:24.some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:25. > :23:28.the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:29. > :23:34.newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:35. > :23:38.enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:39. > :23:45.their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:46. > :23:54.they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:55. > :24:04.won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:24:05. > :24:08.fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:09. > :24:13.relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:14. > :24:17.The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:18. > :24:21.against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:22. > :24:27.understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:28. > :24:34.boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:35. > :24:43.Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:44. > :24:52.Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:53. > :24:57.would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:58. > :25:02.compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:03. > :25:06.papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:07. > :25:13.they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:14. > :25:17.regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:18. > :25:22.own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:23. > :25:27.one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:28. > :25:30.expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:31. > :25:35.the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:36. > :25:40.either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:41. > :25:52.approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:53. > :26:01.independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:26:02. > :26:05.a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:06. > :26:08.Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:09. > :26:12.to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:13. > :26:15.have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:16. > :26:21.expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:22. > :26:25.which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:26. > :26:29.up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:30. > :26:37.potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:38. > :26:43.the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:44. > :26:50.the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:51. > :26:53.it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:54. > :26:58.journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:59. > :27:02.scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:03. > :27:09.that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:10. > :27:13.equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:14. > :27:18.judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:19. > :27:23.saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:24. > :27:29.should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:30. > :27:33.is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:34. > :27:39.what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:40. > :27:44.something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:45. > :27:47.happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:48. > :27:51.circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:52. > :27:55.that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:56. > :28:00.because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:28:01. > :28:05.That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:06. > :28:11.newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:12. > :28:16.Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:17. > :28:20.outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:21. > :28:24.bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:25. > :28:33.the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:34. > :28:37.guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:38. > :28:41.The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:42. > :28:46.somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:47. > :28:50.can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:51. > :28:52.The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:53. > :28:54.has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:55. > :28:58.The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:59. > :29:01.open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:02. > :29:03.The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:04. > :29:06.It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:07. > :29:09.had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:10. > :29:15.At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:16. > :29:17.or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:18. > :29:23.On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:24. > :29:26.that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:27. > :29:34.But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:35. > :29:36.He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:37. > :29:41.On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:42. > :29:43.to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:44. > :29:49.paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:50. > :29:53.On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:54. > :29:58.told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:59. > :30:02.And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:03. > :30:06.The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:07. > :30:10.was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:11. > :30:13.And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:14. > :30:20.46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:21. > :30:24.Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:25. > :30:27.opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:28. > :30:34.To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:35. > :30:37.MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:38. > :30:40.life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:41. > :30:50.Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:51. > :30:55.saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:56. > :30:58.enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:59. > :31:02.think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:03. > :31:07.have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:08. > :31:11.still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:12. > :31:16.GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:17. > :31:21.an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:22. > :31:25.is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:26. > :31:28.cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:29. > :31:32.wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:33. > :31:35.forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:36. > :31:45.to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:46. > :31:48.A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:49. > :31:51.play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:52. > :31:54.patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:55. > :31:58.by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:59. > :32:02.hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:03. > :32:07.Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:08. > :32:12.shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:13. > :32:15.or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:16. > :32:23.physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:24. > :32:27.most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:28. > :32:30.don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:31. > :32:34.working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:35. > :32:40.profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:41. > :32:47.Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:48. > :32:50.half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:51. > :32:54.of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:55. > :32:59.working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:33:00. > :33:03.not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:04. > :33:06.working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:07. > :33:10.if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:11. > :33:17.the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:18. > :33:19.out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:20. > :33:22.runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:23. > :33:27.contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:28. > :33:32.tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:33. > :33:34.the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:35. > :33:38.this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:39. > :33:43.practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:44. > :33:49.there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:50. > :33:52.are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:53. > :33:55.offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:56. > :34:00.they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:01. > :34:04.saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:05. > :34:08.one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:09. > :34:12.keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:13. > :34:16.should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:17. > :34:22.their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:23. > :34:27.upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:28. > :34:31.highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:32. > :34:37.the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:38. > :34:40.don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:41. > :34:45.enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:46. > :34:50.practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:51. > :34:54.advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:55. > :34:59.need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:35:00. > :35:03.short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:04. > :35:07.associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:08. > :35:10.practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:11. > :35:15.junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:16. > :35:18.this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:19. > :35:25.system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:26. > :35:29.1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:30. > :35:33.with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:34. > :35:38.when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:39. > :35:42.that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:43. > :35:46.where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:47. > :35:50.saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:51. > :35:53.services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:54. > :35:57.follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:58. > :36:00.it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:01. > :36:05.station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:06. > :36:12.it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:13. > :36:14.recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:15. > :36:18.haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:19. > :36:21.them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:22. > :36:24.professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:25. > :36:28.what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:29. > :36:33.you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:34. > :36:37.the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:38. > :36:40.patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:41. > :36:46.lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:47. > :36:50.necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:51. > :36:54.up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:55. > :36:57.things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:58. > :37:00.doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:01. > :37:05.empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:06. > :37:09.We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:10. > :37:13.our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:14. > :37:17.general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:18. > :37:21.wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:22. > :37:25.lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:26. > :37:28.We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:29. > :37:30.subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:31. > :37:33.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:34. > :37:35.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:36. > :37:44.minutes: The Week Ahead. Hello, welcome to Sunday Politics

:37:45. > :37:47.East, I'm Stewart White. Later in the programme,

:37:48. > :37:49.Jeremy Corbyn, who visited Peterborough at this week to deliver

:37:50. > :37:52.Labour's message on immigration, tells us his plans for the foreign

:37:53. > :37:55.workers in our fields and promises It does mean subsidies,

:37:56. > :38:02.it does mean support. But it also means encouragement

:38:03. > :38:07.of rural industry as well. Our guests this week,

:38:08. > :38:10.the Labour MP for Cambridge and Shadow Transport Minister,

:38:11. > :38:12.Daniel Zeichner, and for the Conservatives,

:38:13. > :38:15.the Suffolk MP Dr Dan Poulter, And the crisis around

:38:16. > :38:20.health and social care MPs clashed in a special

:38:21. > :38:25.debate on how to solve Former Health Minister Simon Burns

:38:26. > :38:31.defended the Government's record I will accept it was a modest

:38:32. > :38:39.real terms increase, but it showed our commitment

:38:40. > :38:42.and our intent to invest in improving

:38:43. > :38:47.the National Health Service. MPs from this region are now

:38:48. > :38:50.spearheading a cross-party campaign MPs from her own party,

:38:51. > :38:55.from the Labour Party and from my own have come together

:38:56. > :38:59.to call for the Government to establish an NHS

:39:00. > :39:02.and care convention. Labour accused the Prime Minister

:39:03. > :39:06.of being in denial. Earlier this week,

:39:07. > :39:08.the Prime Minister said she wanted More people sharing hospital

:39:09. > :39:22.corridors on trolleys. Theresa May rejected demands

:39:23. > :39:25.for extra cash from Whitehall. We have put extra money into social

:39:26. > :39:27.care, in the medium term, we are ensuring that best practice

:39:28. > :39:31.is spread across the country. While the boss of NHS England

:39:32. > :39:34.added to the pressure. In 2018-19, as I've previously said

:39:35. > :39:39.in October, real terms NHS spending per person in England

:39:40. > :39:43.is going to go down. Of course, social care is provided

:39:44. > :39:46.by our local authorities. Adult social care is

:39:47. > :39:50.their biggest single cost. In some cases, it is about

:39:51. > :39:55.a third of their budgets. In most of the others,

:39:56. > :39:58.it is up to a half. But in Norfolk, it is almost three

:39:59. > :40:02.quarters of all council spending. The Government is now allowing

:40:03. > :40:06.councils to charge an extra 3% on their council tax this year

:40:07. > :40:08.and next year. Simon Dedman has been

:40:09. > :40:15.to a care home in Colchester. The last Minimum Wage increase,

:40:16. > :40:18.from 15p, has really So, that goes up, our

:40:19. > :40:25.utility bills are going up, our mortgage goes up,

:40:26. > :40:27.but yet, The Council Leader,

:40:28. > :40:32.who funds residents' care in Essex, David Finch,

:40:33. > :40:35.meets the Haven Care Homes Manager Ryan Moring is not happy

:40:36. > :40:42.with the County Council's funding. The money which you pay us,

:40:43. > :40:47.we cannot just employ anybody off the street,

:40:48. > :40:49.of course we can't, we are looking How many training courses

:40:50. > :40:55.have you had to do? 15 courses, which you expect

:40:56. > :41:01.from us, as Essex County Council, you expect our staff to have this

:41:02. > :41:05.mandatory training to be able But yet, we get no

:41:06. > :41:11.assistance in funding that. Well, Ryan, I fully understand

:41:12. > :41:14.the point that you're making about the rates that we pay you,

:41:15. > :41:18.but it is a very large market for us, and very clearly,

:41:19. > :41:21.as I said earlier on, in terms of our total budget,

:41:22. > :41:25.nearly 50% of our budget is already going on care for the elderly

:41:26. > :41:30.and care for mental health and care So I think there is an awful lot

:41:31. > :41:40.of money that we are spending, if we could pay you more,

:41:41. > :41:42.we would, but we can't, because simply there is not enough

:41:43. > :41:45.money in the system. Where are residents expected to go

:41:46. > :41:48.if care homes close? I mean, Alzheimer's,

:41:49. > :41:50.for instance, they cannot possibly live on their own,

:41:51. > :41:53.and carers coming in two or three Well, the answer to that is, I don't

:41:54. > :42:02.have a short answer to that one. And my ask, of both residents

:42:03. > :42:08.and indeed care home providers, is join us in that lobbying

:42:09. > :42:13.of government to get government to recognise it

:42:14. > :42:17.needs to do something. Because this has been growing,

:42:18. > :42:20.I said earlier on, 22% of my population in Essex is over

:42:21. > :42:24.the age of 65. The number of 85-year-olds

:42:25. > :42:26.is doubling. This is a disaster

:42:27. > :42:32.waiting to happen. Councils and care workers

:42:33. > :42:35.are united in the need But right now, councils can

:42:36. > :42:41.do little to improve There is a growing black hole

:42:42. > :42:47.for care that councils like Essex For this coming year,

:42:48. > :42:51.they are having to make And that is because central

:42:52. > :42:57.government has been cutting its grants to councils,

:42:58. > :43:00.as well as the financial pressure of a rising

:43:01. > :43:03.national living wage, and this year, more people than ever

:43:04. > :43:08.before will turn 70. In response, the Government allowed

:43:09. > :43:13.councils last year to raise a social care precept,

:43:14. > :43:17.an additional council tax, For Essex, an extra 2%

:43:18. > :43:24.will bring in ?11 million. The Government says this year

:43:25. > :43:27.and next, councils can raise an additional 1%,

:43:28. > :43:30.which would bring in But that would cover less than

:43:31. > :43:37.a week's worth of care in Essex. The director of the Essex Care

:43:38. > :43:39.Association says the situation Most providers have to look

:43:40. > :43:45.at their private clients and disproportionately increase

:43:46. > :43:49.the amount that their private clients pay to subsidise

:43:50. > :43:53.what little we are getting But is it right that

:43:54. > :43:58.private clients, who have worked all their lives,

:43:59. > :44:02.saved and paid taxes on that money, are now having to cross subsidise

:44:03. > :44:06.people whose care is being badly I mean, that is the situation

:44:07. > :44:13.that we are in now, Councils are putting the finishing

:44:14. > :44:19.touches to their budgets. Tomorrow, we find out how

:44:20. > :44:21.much Essex will raise Well, this is the statement

:44:22. > :45:00.from the Government. Dr Dan Poulter is somebody who has

:45:01. > :45:05.had experience of working in the NHS, what is the answer? It is very

:45:06. > :45:10.pressure that I have known on the pressure that I have known on the

:45:11. > :45:13.health care system in just over a decade that I have been working as a

:45:14. > :45:18.doctor caring for patients. So whatever we do today, if we put more

:45:19. > :45:22.money in today it will take a number of months or years to see that

:45:23. > :45:25.benefit on the ground. But more money is certainly a key part of

:45:26. > :45:29.this and a key part of the extra cash that is needed will be needed

:45:30. > :45:34.to help transform the way services are delivered. More money for

:45:35. > :45:37.preventative care and general practice to prevent unnecessary and

:45:38. > :45:41.inappropriate admissions, and also more money to alleviate the pressure

:45:42. > :45:47.on the social care system so we stop frail and elderly people having to

:45:48. > :45:51.go to a handy. This care convention, Norman Lamb would like to see health

:45:52. > :45:56.and social care combine, is that where you stand? Hill-mac very much,

:45:57. > :46:03.and that has to be the way forward. It is better for the patient. And it

:46:04. > :46:08.also makes sure that we deliver services in a seamless way. It would

:46:09. > :46:15.help stop some of these rack-mounted processes, which are leading to what

:46:16. > :46:23.we see now in any -- fragmented, which is the shop window of the care

:46:24. > :46:29.system. Why did we not see this coming? We have had this problem

:46:30. > :46:34.with care out of hospitals, it goes back 20 or 30 years but it has got a

:46:35. > :46:38.lot worse in recent times. One of the problems is cancelled my here in

:46:39. > :46:40.Cambridge that did not even take the social care preceptor last year, it

:46:41. > :46:46.makes the situation worse. There are makes the situation worse. There are

:46:47. > :46:48.over 100 over 85-year-olds at Addenbrooke's who could leave

:46:49. > :46:53.hospital but have nowhere to go. That does not make any sense. I

:46:54. > :46:55.think Dan is right, at the last election, Labour argued for an

:46:56. > :47:00.integrated health and care system and that is what we will have to do.

:47:01. > :47:05.I know this is a cross-party thing, but to make the Government listen,

:47:06. > :47:10.virtually everybody has to be part of it. Would you be willing to be a

:47:11. > :47:13.part of this? Yes, I think Jeremy Corbyn was right this week to

:47:14. > :47:19.criticise the Prime Minister bro being in denial. No one denies this

:47:20. > :47:25.is a long-term difficulty. Surely all prime ministers du? I do not

:47:26. > :47:28.think so. Gordon Brown was brave and put a lot of extra money into the

:47:29. > :47:31.Health Service and it made a difference. Frank, that is what

:47:32. > :47:35.needs to be done. The last election was unfortunate in terms of the

:47:36. > :47:39.discussion, it became very party politicised. You will remember that

:47:40. > :47:44.I got quite exercised during the election debate about this because I

:47:45. > :47:47.misrepresented. We did talk about misrepresented. We did talk about

:47:48. > :47:51.the two together. Some of the political heat needs to be taken out

:47:52. > :47:57.and we need to work to get a solution. Are we reaching meltdown?

:47:58. > :48:02.This is a crisis that we cannot ignore any more. How I see it is

:48:03. > :48:05.like a submarine moving into increasingly shallow waters.

:48:06. > :48:09.Occasionally where -- occasionally you find a deeper pool but

:48:10. > :48:13.increasingly you are running out of water and hitting more and more

:48:14. > :48:18.rocks. There is no more deeper water? Unless we can find more

:48:19. > :48:23.money. It is undoubtedly the case that people working in the health

:48:24. > :48:27.and care system, the injection of cash that came under Tony Blair made

:48:28. > :48:33.a significant difference to the ability to deliver high-quality.

:48:34. > :48:39.Unless we can find some extra cash, and that is also needed to transform

:48:40. > :48:43.the service, we will be in a difficult place very quickly. Should

:48:44. > :48:47.local authorities be the people we turn to for our social care, or

:48:48. > :48:53.should it be taken away from them and just say, this is the problem?

:48:54. > :48:59.Local authorities have developed the skills in commissioning local social

:49:00. > :49:03.care services, but one of the problems in terms of how service is

:49:04. > :49:07.delivered is that it is fragmented. There is now a and well-being board,

:49:08. > :49:13.which is joining up what local authorities do with the NHS, but

:49:14. > :49:17.unless we want that to become just a talking shop, we need to support

:49:18. > :49:20.that bored with some additional powers and I think that local

:49:21. > :49:24.authorities should be more involved in commissioning... Is that the

:49:25. > :49:29.right way forward? Or do we just need to have a national approach? I

:49:30. > :49:33.think we possibly need to rethink but the big problem has been the

:49:34. > :49:37.huge cuts to local authorities. Many did warn a few years ago that there

:49:38. > :49:42.would be consequences of this and that is what we are seeing. They are

:49:43. > :49:46.struggling to manage a whole range of important services. In Cambridge,

:49:47. > :49:50.the crisis in the adult social care budget has been there for some years

:49:51. > :49:55.and it leads to more costs. You do not save money despite -- just by

:49:56. > :49:56.shifting the problem from one part of the system to the other.

:49:57. > :49:58.Well, now to the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn.

:49:59. > :49:59.Earlier this week, he was in Peterborough,

:50:00. > :50:02.where he was expected to revive the Labour policy on immigration.

:50:03. > :50:05.He was expected to say the party is not wedded to the free

:50:06. > :50:10.On the day, though, the message was watered down.

:50:11. > :50:13.I went to see him in London to talk about migrant workers

:50:14. > :50:21.So, would Labour continue with subsidies to farming after 2020?

:50:22. > :50:24.Well, it depends on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations,

:50:25. > :50:28.of course, but the principle has to be that we need a vibrant

:50:29. > :50:35.East Anglia is a massive producer of food, a massive food plus

:50:36. > :50:38.for the whole country, with good quality soils and

:50:39. > :50:45.And we have to ensure that there is government support

:50:46. > :50:53.So that does mean subsidies, as far as you are concerned?

:50:54. > :50:55.It does mean subsidies, it does mean support.

:50:56. > :50:57.But it also means encouragement of rural industry as well,

:50:58. > :50:59.so that farming, of course, produces crops and food,

:51:00. > :51:02.but increasingly, farms are also processing centres

:51:03. > :51:08.One of the things that many farmers in our region are concerned

:51:09. > :51:11.about is that they use migrant workers to pick vegetables

:51:12. > :51:19.If there was a two tier system, would they still be able

:51:20. > :51:24.Yes, I want them to be able to get workers to do those jobs.

:51:25. > :51:26.I also want to make sure those people are properly paid,

:51:27. > :51:29.on good quality conditions, and that's why I supported

:51:30. > :51:32.the introduction of the gangmasters legislation during the last Labour

:51:33. > :51:36.government, and indeed why I have supported the Posting of Workers

:51:37. > :51:40.Directive for the EU, which would prevent the wholesale

:51:41. > :51:44.importation of groups of workers to undercut

:51:45. > :51:49.But quite obviously, the economy of the whole region,

:51:50. > :51:54.the agricultural economy, does depend on infrastructure,

:51:55. > :51:57.but it also depends on getting labour there

:51:58. > :52:02.Now, obviously, agriculture is a seasonal business.

:52:03. > :52:05.So, when Stephen Kinnock says that he would like to see a two-tier

:52:06. > :52:07.system, where people come in who are qualified,

:52:08. > :52:09.but if they are not, they don't come in,

:52:10. > :52:13.No, I think it needs to be thought through a lot more than that,

:52:14. > :52:16.because I want to end the undercutting and I want

:52:17. > :52:19.to maintain the principle that people can move around.

:52:20. > :52:23.You will understand that our region is very much a Brexit region,

:52:24. > :52:25.I think we were the biggest vote in favour of Brexit

:52:26. > :52:30.So, there are lots of traditional Labour voters who voted to leave

:52:31. > :52:34.the EU, and they did it because of migration and immigration.

:52:35. > :52:39.We accept the result of the referendum and we will not be

:52:40. > :52:42.opposing Article 50 being triggered, and it will be triggered

:52:43. > :52:47.We are keen to have good economic relations with Europe,

:52:48. > :52:50.so I'm reaching out to Socialist Party colleagues all across Europe,

:52:51. > :52:53.indeed I am inviting them all to London at the end of February

:52:54. > :52:56.for a discussion about how we build that relationship.

:52:57. > :53:00.Because if we don't have a market relationship with Europe,

:53:01. > :53:03.then where are the agricultural products that are now exported

:53:04. > :53:06.to Europe going to go, where are manufactured exports

:53:07. > :53:10.going to go from many parts of this country?

:53:11. > :53:13.Cambridge is a huge science place, has enormous and very good

:53:14. > :53:16.relationships with universities across Europe,

:53:17. > :53:22.But you will understand, those people who are traditional voters,

:53:23. > :53:25.who are worried about their jobs being taken by migrant

:53:26. > :53:28.workers, they will not vote for you unless you stop

:53:29. > :53:32.Well, I'm saying we'll stop that undercutting,

:53:33. > :53:36.stop that exploitation, which is why that strangely named

:53:37. > :53:38.thing called the Posting of Workers Directive

:53:39. > :53:42.That will prevent that wholesale importation,

:53:43. > :53:46.solely to destroy local wages and conditions.

:53:47. > :54:01.Daniel Zeichner, where do you stand? On immigration. I think Jeremy

:54:02. > :54:04.explained it privately well and it is consistent with what we have been

:54:05. > :54:10.saying for a long time. He doesn't want the two tier system that

:54:11. > :54:15.Stephen Kinnock is on about. So you would have people who are qualified

:54:16. > :54:18.and people who are not qualified. What Jeremy is saying that the poor

:54:19. > :54:21.factor has been very cheap labour rates in this country and that is

:54:22. > :54:25.what we as a party would always stand against and what has not been

:54:26. > :54:29.done sufficiently in the past. It is not so attracted to bring people

:54:30. > :54:33.here the numbers will fall. You can do it in a sensible way. But I am

:54:34. > :54:38.particularly determined to protect its free movement of people coming

:54:39. > :54:43.in to a social -- to a city like Cambridge. Thousands and thousands

:54:44. > :54:49.of highly skilled people... Those are the people that we want. The

:54:50. > :54:53.people... We are talking about the people coming to depress the wages

:54:54. > :54:57.key part of the decision and the key part of the decision and the

:54:58. > :55:00.country took last year, people particularly in the East were

:55:01. > :55:04.worried about that. We can deal with that by protecting people properly

:55:05. > :55:09.here. Did you follow the argument or did you think... The Labour Party

:55:10. > :55:16.claim that the Tories are modelled on this. Do you think they are? My

:55:17. > :55:19.understanding and I had a meeting with farmers before I came here

:55:20. > :55:23.today and we talked about this very issue of migrant labour, it is

:55:24. > :55:28.important for agricultural and for all parts of the food industry. If

:55:29. > :55:30.you look at companies in my constituency, they have a number of

:55:31. > :55:33.migrant workers who work in them and would not be able to function

:55:34. > :55:39.without them. What the Government has said is that there will be a

:55:40. > :55:44.green card scheme or a migrant worker scheme to ensure that supply

:55:45. > :55:48.of labour is protected, because otherwise, we will be paying much

:55:49. > :55:53.higher food prices. That is an interesting answer, but do you think

:55:54. > :55:56.their message is modelled? I have not been paying too much attention

:55:57. > :56:04.this week but I think what Jeremy Corbyn said, I think I understand

:56:05. > :56:08.what he is saying, there is a difficulty from his perspective that

:56:09. > :56:12.he is clearly very pro-migration, and that is a difficult message to

:56:13. > :56:17.convey the parts of the country who may well have voted to leave the EU,

:56:18. > :56:23.and... But this region was very much and... But this region was very much

:56:24. > :56:30.against staying in Europe. Not all. We are sitting in a city which was

:56:31. > :56:36.overwhelmingly Remain. Something like 44 to 57? I accept the fact

:56:37. > :56:39.that the majority were against. I think there were some promises made

:56:40. > :56:43.which are proving pretty hard to deliver and do not look likely to be

:56:44. > :56:47.delivered in future. This basic question of, who does the work? We

:56:48. > :56:52.were talking about the NHS, without people not just from the EU but from

:56:53. > :56:55.outside, the Health Service would collapse immediately. We need to

:56:56. > :57:00.have a sensible discussion about this. We are clearly going to have

:57:01. > :57:05.migration in future. So you think the discussion has not been

:57:06. > :57:08.rational? Not entirely. I think there is a danger of people being

:57:09. > :57:11.disappointed because they think suddenly there is going to be no

:57:12. > :57:12.migration, and that is not what will happen.

:57:13. > :57:14.Now for our political round-up of the week

:57:15. > :57:25.The plight of tenants evicted from their homes in Peterborough

:57:26. > :57:28.to make way for homeless people was raised in Parliament

:57:29. > :57:34.I'd like to apologise to my constituents that I could not

:57:35. > :57:37.do more to help them, and I feel to a certain extent

:57:38. > :57:42.Essex MP and keen Brexiteer James Cleverly has launched

:57:43. > :57:46.a pamphlet on free trade with the Commonwealth.

:57:47. > :57:50.It shouldn't be seen as replacement for trade with the EU,

:57:51. > :57:52.but it should be seen in parallel with it.

:57:53. > :57:59.Meanwhile, academics at a Select Committee hearing

:58:00. > :58:03.pointed to a 14% drop in the number of undergraduates applying to study

:58:04. > :58:06.at Cambridge University next year as a sign of the impact of Brexit.

:58:07. > :58:07.Students are worried about the uncertainty

:58:08. > :58:12.of the funding, students are worried about anti-immigrant sentiment,

:58:13. > :58:15.and they are also worried about loss of possible collaboration with

:58:16. > :58:22.And a meeting in Norwich about bringing our railways back

:58:23. > :58:24.into public ownership heard from Green MP Caroline Lucas,

:58:25. > :58:33.It isn't a model which is conducive to competition and free markets,

:58:34. > :58:36.it is actually one where a publicly owned central piece

:58:37. > :58:48.of infrastructure should be democratically owned.

:58:49. > :58:57.Dan Potter, are you surprised about that fall in applications? Not

:58:58. > :59:00.really, no. I have an unpaid role for a visiting professor at Kings

:59:01. > :59:04.College London and one thing that they are worried about is something

:59:05. > :59:10.other universities are worried about, including those in Norwich,

:59:11. > :59:16.Ipswich and Cambridge, is this issue about the uncertainty of funding. A

:59:17. > :59:19.lot of the EU funding grants have backed our universities in Britain

:59:20. > :59:23.to work collaboratively with the European universities, and a lot of

:59:24. > :59:28.that is contingent on money from the EU. Daniel

:59:29. > :59:29.universities are well respected universities are well respected

:59:30. > :59:35.around the world, surely the students will come from around the

:59:36. > :59:39.world? That is the presumption. But there is uncertainty all over the

:59:40. > :59:42.place and it is making us a less attractive proposition. Be in no

:59:43. > :59:47.parts of the world will seize on parts of the world will seize on

:59:48. > :59:50.this opportunity. It is a real danger for us, a 14% fall in

:59:51. > :59:54.applications to Cambridge University is a warning potentially to what

:59:55. > :59:57.could be further down the line. It is really important, the message

:59:58. > :00:02.that goes to the rest of the world that Britain is still a welcoming

:00:03. > :00:05.place. It is our fifth biggest export earner, higher education.

:00:06. > :00:09.People understand how important it is to our economy. And if we do

:00:10. > :00:15.nothing, presumably, we have to worry about the future? Villa it is

:00:16. > :00:18.important our universities stay competitive internationally and

:00:19. > :00:22.attract funding. That is vitally important. That means we get

:00:23. > :00:25.businesses who want to invest and work with those universities and

:00:26. > :00:29.that means for Southwark, Norfolk, Cambridge and the rest of our region

:00:30. > :00:30.and that has to be a good thing. -- Suffolk.

:00:31. > :00:33.Inside Out tomorrow at 7:30pm has more on the problems

:00:34. > :00:36.We are back at the same time next week.

:00:37. > :00:40.Now, though, it's back to Andrew in the studio.

:00:41. > :00:48.Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump would tone things down

:00:49. > :00:50.after the American election campaign, they may have

:00:51. > :01:03.The period where he has been President-elect will make them think

:01:04. > :01:04.again. The inauguration is coming up on Friday.

:01:05. > :01:06.Never has the forthcoming inauguration of a president been

:01:07. > :01:10.In a moment, we'll talk to a man who knows Mr Trump

:01:11. > :01:14.But first, let's have a look at the press conference

:01:15. > :01:16.Mr Trump gave on Wednesday, in which he took the opportunity

:01:17. > :01:18.to rubbish reports that Russia has obtained compromising information

:01:19. > :01:34.You are attacking our news organisation.

:01:35. > :01:39.Can you give us a chance, you are attacking our news

:01:40. > :01:42.organisation, can you give us a chance to ask a question, sir?

:01:43. > :01:48.As far as Buzzfeed, which is a failing pile of garbage,

:01:49. > :01:52.writing it, I think they're going to suffer the consequences.

:01:53. > :01:55.Does anyone really believe that story?

:01:56. > :01:58.I'm also very much of a germaphobe, by the way.

:01:59. > :02:00.If Putin likes Donald Trump, guess what, folks, that's called

:02:01. > :02:08.The only ones that care about my tax returns are the reporters, OK?

:02:09. > :02:10.Do you not think the American public is concerned?

:02:11. > :02:24.The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first last conference. The Can will he

:02:25. > :02:28.change as President? Because he hasn't changed in the run-up to

:02:29. > :02:31.being inaugurated? I don't think he will commit he doesn't see any point

:02:32. > :02:36.in changing. Why would he change from the personality that just one,

:02:37. > :02:39.as he just said, I just one. All of the bleeding-heart liberals can wail

:02:40. > :02:43.and brush their teeth and say how ghastly that all this, Hillary

:02:44. > :02:47.should have won and so on, but he has got an incredible mandate.

:02:48. > :02:50.Remember, Trump has the House committee has the Senate, he will

:02:51. > :02:54.have the Supreme Court. He has incredible power right now. He

:02:55. > :02:57.doesn't have to listen to anybody. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago

:02:58. > :03:02.specifically about Twitter, I asked him what the impact was of Twitter.

:03:03. > :03:07.He said, I have 60 million people following me on Twitter. I was able

:03:08. > :03:11.to bypass mainstream media, bypass all modern political convention and

:03:12. > :03:15.talk directly to potential voters. Secondly, I can turn on the TV in

:03:16. > :03:20.the morning, I can see a rival getting all of the airtime, and I

:03:21. > :03:24.can fire off a tweet, for free, as a marketing man he loves that, and,

:03:25. > :03:28.boom, I'm on the news agenda again. He was able to use that

:03:29. > :03:35.magnificently. Twitter to him didn't cost him a dollar. He is going to

:03:36. > :03:43.carry on tweeting in the last six weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump

:03:44. > :03:48.has never had an alcoholic drink a cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by

:03:49. > :03:51.the 70, he has incredible energy and he is incredibly competitive. At his

:03:52. > :03:56.heart, he is a businessman. If you look at him as a political

:03:57. > :04:00.ideologue, you completely missed the point of trouble. Don't take what he

:04:01. > :04:03.says literally, look upon it as a negotiating point that he started

:04:04. > :04:08.from, and try to do business with him as a business person would, and

:04:09. > :04:13.you may be presently surprised so pleasantly surprised. He treats the

:04:14. > :04:15.press and the media entirely differently to any other politician

:04:16. > :04:22.or main politician in that normally the politicians try to get the media

:04:23. > :04:27.off a particular subject, or they try to conciliate with the media. He

:04:28. > :04:32.just comes and punches the media in the nose when he doesn't like them.

:04:33. > :04:36.This could catch on, you know! You are absolutely right, for a start,

:04:37. > :04:43.nobody could accuse him of letting that victory go to his head. You

:04:44. > :04:47.know, he won't say, I will now be this lofty president. He's exactly

:04:48. > :04:50.the same as he was before. What is fascinating is his Laois and ship

:04:51. > :04:54.with the media. I haven't met, and I'm sure you haven't, met a party

:04:55. > :05:00.leader who is obsessed with the media. But they pretend not to be.

:05:01. > :05:07.You know, they state, oh, somebody told me about a column, I didn't

:05:08. > :05:12.read it. He is utterly transparent in his obsession with the media, he

:05:13. > :05:14.doesn't pretend. How that plays out, who knows? It's a completely

:05:15. > :05:20.different dynamic than anyone has seen by. Like he is the issue, he

:05:21. > :05:24.has appointed an unusual Cabinet, that you could criticise in many

:05:25. > :05:27.ways. Nearly all of them are independent people in their own

:05:28. > :05:31.right. A lot of them are wealthy, too. They have their own views. They

:05:32. > :05:37.might not like what he tweaked at 3am, and he does have to deal with

:05:38. > :05:40.his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters, now the Defence Secretary, he might

:05:41. > :05:46.not like what's said about China at three in morning - general matters.

:05:47. > :05:49.This is what gets very conjugated. We cannot imagine here in our

:05:50. > :05:52.political system any kind of appointments like this. Using the

:05:53. > :05:55.wouldn't have a line-up of billionaires of the kind of

:05:56. > :05:59.background that he has chosen -- you simply wouldn't have. But that won't

:06:00. > :06:03.stop him saying and reading what he thinks. Maybe it will cause him some

:06:04. > :06:06.internal issues when the following day he has the square rigged with

:06:07. > :06:15.whatever they think. But he's going to press ahead. Are we any clearer

:06:16. > :06:19.in terms of policy. I know policy hasn't featured hugely in this

:06:20. > :06:25.campaign of 2016. Do we have any really clear idea what Mr Trump is

:06:26. > :06:29.hoping to achieve? He has had some consistent theme going back over 25

:06:30. > :06:32.years. One is a deep scepticism about international trade and the

:06:33. > :06:36.kind of deals that America has been doing over that period. It has been

:06:37. > :06:39.so consistent that is has been hard to spin as something that you say

:06:40. > :06:43.during the course of a campaign of something to get elected.

:06:44. > :06:46.Ultimately, Piers is correct, he won't change. When he won the

:06:47. > :06:50.election committee gave a relatively magnanimous beach. I thought his ego

:06:51. > :06:54.had been sated and he had got what he wanted. He will end up governing

:06:55. > :06:58.as is likely eccentric New York liberal and everything will be fine.

:06:59. > :07:00.In the recent weeks it has come to my attention that that might not be

:07:01. > :07:06.entirely true! LAUGHTER

:07:07. > :07:08.It is a real test of the American system, the Texan bouncers, the

:07:09. > :07:13.foreign policy establishment which is about to have the orthodoxies

:07:14. > :07:17.disrupted -- the checks and balances. I think he has completely

:07:18. > :07:21.ripped up the American political system. Washington as we know it is

:07:22. > :07:27.dead. From his garage do things his way, he doesn't care, frankly, what

:07:28. > :07:31.any of us thinks -- Trump is going to do things his way. If he can

:07:32. > :07:40.deliver for the people who voted for him who fault this disenfranchised,

:07:41. > :07:43.-- who voted for him who felt this disenfranchised. They voted

:07:44. > :07:47.accordingly. They want to see jobs and the economy in good shape, they

:07:48. > :07:51.want to feel secure. They want to feel that immigration has been

:07:52. > :07:55.tightened. If Trump can deliver on those main theme for the rust belt

:07:56. > :07:59.communities of America, I'm telling you, he will go down as a very

:08:00. > :08:02.successful president. All of the offensive rhetoric and the

:08:03. > :08:06.argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it may be will be completely

:08:07. > :08:13.irrelevant. Let me finish with a parochial question. Is it fair to

:08:14. > :08:15.say quite well disposed to this country? And that he would like,

:08:16. > :08:20.that he's up for a speedy free-trade, bilateral free-trade

:08:21. > :08:25.you'll? Think we have to be sensible as the country. Come Friday, he is

:08:26. > :08:29.the president of the United States, the most powerful man and well. He

:08:30. > :08:33.said to me that he feels half British, his mum was born and raised

:08:34. > :08:36.in Scotland until the age of 18, he loves British, his mother used to

:08:37. > :08:41.love watching the Queen, he feels very, you know, I would roll out the

:08:42. > :08:46.red carpet for Trump, let him eat Her Majesty. The crucial point for

:08:47. > :08:52.us as a country is coming -- let him me to Her Majesty. If we can do a

:08:53. > :08:55.speedy deal within an 18 month period, it really sends a message

:08:56. > :08:58.that well but we are back in the game, that is a hugely beneficial

:08:59. > :09:03.thing for this country. Well, a man whose advisers were indicating that

:09:04. > :09:09.maybe he should learn a few things from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn.

:09:10. > :09:11.Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. --

:09:12. > :09:14.yes, indeed. If you don't win Copeland,

:09:15. > :09:17.and if you don't win Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:09:18. > :09:18.you're toast, aren't you? Our party is going to fight very

:09:19. > :09:23.hard in those elections, as we are in the local elections,

:09:24. > :09:26.to put those policies out there. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:27. > :09:28.the Government on the NHS. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:29. > :09:31.them on the chaos of Brexit. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:32. > :09:33.them on the housing shortage. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:34. > :09:35.them on zero-hours contracts. Is there ever a moment that you look

:09:36. > :09:40.in the mirror and think, you know what, I've done my best,

:09:41. > :09:44.but this might not be for me? I look in the mirror

:09:45. > :09:46.every day and I think, let's go out there and try

:09:47. > :09:49.and create a society where there are opportunities for all,

:09:50. > :09:51.where there aren't these terrible levels of poverty, where

:09:52. > :09:53.there isn't homelessness, where there are houses for all,

:09:54. > :09:55.and where young people aren't frightened of going to university

:09:56. > :09:58.because of the debts they are going to end up

:09:59. > :10:06.with at the end of their course. Mr Corbyn earlier this morning.

:10:07. > :10:08.Steve, would it be fair to say that the mainstream of the Labour Party

:10:09. > :10:13.has now come to the conclusion that they just have to let Mr Corbyn get

:10:14. > :10:17.on with it, that they are not going to try and influence what he does.

:10:18. > :10:22.They will continue to try and have their own views, but it's his show,

:10:23. > :10:25.it's up to him, if it's a mess, he has to live with it and we'll have

:10:26. > :10:29.clean hands? For now, yes. I think they made a mistake when he was

:10:30. > :10:33.first elected to start in some cases tweeting within seconds that it was

:10:34. > :10:37.going to be a disaster, this was Labour MPs. They made a complete

:10:38. > :10:43.mess of that attempted coup in the summer, which strengthened his

:10:44. > :10:46.position. And he did, it gave Corbyn the space with total legitimacy to

:10:47. > :10:52.say that part of the problem is, we're having this public Civil War.

:10:53. > :10:56.In keeping quiet, that disappeared as part of the explanation for why

:10:57. > :11:02.Labour and low in the polls. I think they are partly doing that. But they

:11:03. > :11:06.are also struggling, the so-called mainstream Labour MPs, to decide

:11:07. > :11:10.what the distinctive agenda is. It's one of the many differences with the

:11:11. > :11:14.80s, where you had a group of people sure of what they believed in, they

:11:15. > :11:18.left to form the SDP. What's happening now is that they are

:11:19. > :11:22.leaving politics altogether. That is a crisis of social Democrats all

:11:23. > :11:25.across Europe, including the French Socialists, as we will find out

:11:26. > :11:33.later in the spring. Let Corbyn because then, that's the strategy.

:11:34. > :11:35.There is a weary and sometimes literal resignation from the

:11:36. > :11:38.moderates in the Labour Party. If you talk to them, they are no longer

:11:39. > :11:41.angry, they have always run out of steam to be angry about what's going

:11:42. > :11:44.on. They are just sort of tired and feel that they've just got to see

:11:45. > :11:48.this through now. I think the by-elections will be interesting.

:11:49. > :11:53.When Andrew Marr said, you're toast, and you? I thought, he's never

:11:54. > :11:57.posed! That was right. A quick thought from view? One thing Corbyn

:11:58. > :12:06.has in common with Trump is immunity to bad news. I think he can lose

:12:07. > :12:08.Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long as it is not a sequence of

:12:09. > :12:11.resignations and by-elections afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20

:12:12. > :12:14.Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy what. It may be more trouble if

:12:15. > :12:20.Labour loses the United trade union elections. We are in a period of

:12:21. > :12:24.incredible unpredictability generally in global politics. If you

:12:25. > :12:27.look at the way the next year plays out, if for example brags it was a

:12:28. > :12:31.disaster and it starts to unravel very quickly, Theresa May is

:12:32. > :12:35.attached to that, clearly label would have a great opportunity

:12:36. > :12:38.potentially disease that higher ground, and when Eddie the Tories --

:12:39. > :12:43.Labour would have an opportunity. Is Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed

:12:44. > :12:48.him, what struck me was that he talked about being from, a laughable

:12:49. > :12:52.comparison, but when it is really laughable is this - Hillary Clinton,

:12:53. > :12:57.what were the things she stood for, nobody really knew? What does Trump

:12:58. > :13:01.stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn has the work-out four or five

:13:02. > :13:03.messages and bang, bang, bang. He could still be in business. Thank

:13:04. > :13:05.you for being with us. I'll be back at the same

:13:06. > :13:08.time next weekend. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:09. > :13:10.it's the Sunday Politics.