:01:10. > :01:13.Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven
:01:14. > :01:18.mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.
:01:19. > :01:21.Here in the East - Milton Keynes celebrates its 50th anniversary.
:01:22. > :01:23.But will a government plan for new garden towns really
:01:24. > :01:28.Should she have spoken out more strongly?
:01:29. > :01:30.We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage
:01:31. > :01:33.what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's
:01:34. > :01:36.In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,
:01:37. > :01:38.has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze
:01:39. > :01:40.and why it doesn't apply to everybody.
:01:41. > :01:42.And with me, the best and brightest political
:01:43. > :01:44.panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia
:01:45. > :01:46.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:47. > :01:49.It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that
:01:50. > :01:52.Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven
:01:53. > :01:58.President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,
:01:59. > :02:01.Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from
:02:02. > :02:06.where refugees are banned from until further notice.
:02:07. > :02:08.Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban
:02:09. > :02:14.on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.
:02:15. > :02:17.Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out
:02:18. > :02:26.But the ban has sparked protests across the US,
:02:27. > :02:28.as people affected and already in the air were detained
:02:29. > :02:32.US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many
:02:33. > :02:38.At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked
:02:39. > :02:43.about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...
:02:44. > :02:45.Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'
:02:46. > :02:51.The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy
:02:52. > :02:54.on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number
:02:55. > :02:57.of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.
:02:58. > :03:12.Downing Street later issued a statement saying:
:03:13. > :03:14.This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why
:03:15. > :03:17.Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's
:03:18. > :03:23.The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip
:03:24. > :03:27.She wants to see the evidence, she wants
:03:28. > :03:32.to understand precisely what the implications are.
:03:33. > :03:34.She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with
:03:35. > :03:38.President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and
:03:39. > :03:42.understand it, and then will respond to that.
:03:43. > :03:44.I think there are times where, you know, there's always
:03:45. > :03:47.pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.
:03:48. > :03:50.The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it
:03:51. > :03:54.We're joined now from North London by the Conservative
:03:55. > :04:05.Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more
:04:06. > :04:14.vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David
:04:15. > :04:18.just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an
:04:19. > :04:22.appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I
:04:23. > :04:29.wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects
:04:30. > :04:33.our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it
:04:34. > :04:39.is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with
:04:40. > :04:43.Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but
:04:44. > :04:48.she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism
:04:49. > :04:53.about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in
:04:54. > :04:56.Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street
:04:57. > :04:59.spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have
:05:00. > :05:04.not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of
:05:05. > :05:08.criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,
:05:09. > :05:11.so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I
:05:12. > :05:16.wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the
:05:17. > :05:21.moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address
:05:22. > :05:25.things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the
:05:26. > :05:32.hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you
:05:33. > :05:36.like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is
:05:37. > :05:39.about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she
:05:40. > :05:42.should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would
:05:43. > :05:45.have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald
:05:46. > :05:48.Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to
:05:49. > :05:53.understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with
:05:54. > :05:56.the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would
:05:57. > :06:01.engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day
:06:02. > :06:06.temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority
:06:07. > :06:12.population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the
:06:13. > :06:16.biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this
:06:17. > :06:22.temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is
:06:23. > :06:26.wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through
:06:27. > :06:29.and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.
:06:30. > :06:34.It can't be right that a president in that position of power can
:06:35. > :06:39.arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already
:06:40. > :06:44.been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach
:06:45. > :06:48.I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by
:06:49. > :07:01.this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?
:07:02. > :07:07.I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by
:07:08. > :07:11.this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are
:07:12. > :07:14.desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by
:07:15. > :07:18.this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only
:07:19. > :07:21.because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it
:07:22. > :07:26.is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do
:07:27. > :07:32.you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is
:07:33. > :07:35.the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work
:07:36. > :07:39.with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was
:07:40. > :07:42.that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our
:07:43. > :07:48.country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is
:07:49. > :07:52.the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate
:07:53. > :07:57.within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,
:07:58. > :08:00.but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,
:08:01. > :08:04.should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a
:08:05. > :08:10.great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of
:08:11. > :08:12.Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the
:08:13. > :08:17.protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I
:08:18. > :08:23.believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have
:08:24. > :08:27.achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a
:08:28. > :08:30.number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am
:08:31. > :08:33.inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege
:08:34. > :08:39.of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places
:08:40. > :08:42.where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the
:08:43. > :08:52.right place. Thank you for joining us.
:08:53. > :08:58.Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald
:08:59. > :09:02.Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,
:09:03. > :09:07.particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going
:09:08. > :09:13.to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on
:09:14. > :09:17.every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa
:09:18. > :09:23.May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time
:09:24. > :09:28.to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.
:09:29. > :09:36.When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and
:09:37. > :09:41.can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying
:09:42. > :09:45.more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing
:09:46. > :09:48.Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going
:09:49. > :09:51.to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's
:09:52. > :09:57.going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It
:09:58. > :10:02.does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special
:10:03. > :10:05.relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven
:10:06. > :10:10.wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.
:10:11. > :10:15.You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for
:10:16. > :10:19.American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what
:10:20. > :10:24.Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why
:10:25. > :10:28.I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has
:10:29. > :10:33.implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was
:10:34. > :10:39.campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real
:10:40. > :10:42.Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the
:10:43. > :10:47.executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a
:10:48. > :10:52.class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day
:10:53. > :10:58.limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,
:10:59. > :11:02.President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.
:11:03. > :11:05.Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in
:11:06. > :11:13.recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with
:11:14. > :11:17.Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned
:11:18. > :11:22.been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not
:11:23. > :11:26.included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in
:11:27. > :11:29.such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal
:11:30. > :11:38.thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It
:11:39. > :11:44.is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge
:11:45. > :11:48.in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue
:11:49. > :11:54.for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree
:11:55. > :11:58.with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa
:11:59. > :12:04.May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is
:12:05. > :12:09.reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is
:12:10. > :12:14.nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with
:12:15. > :12:19.him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time
:12:20. > :12:23.now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee
:12:24. > :12:29.policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as
:12:30. > :12:33.well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this
:12:34. > :12:37.anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she
:12:38. > :12:41.says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.
:12:42. > :12:46.These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does
:12:47. > :12:50.something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her
:12:51. > :12:54.administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical
:12:55. > :12:59.situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in
:13:00. > :13:04.the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.
:13:05. > :13:06.We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless
:13:07. > :13:11.communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for
:13:12. > :13:14.large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't
:13:15. > :13:18.excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via
:13:19. > :13:23.Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible
:13:24. > :13:27.excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than
:13:28. > :13:31.many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with
:13:32. > :13:35.the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of
:13:36. > :13:39.Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is
:13:40. > :13:45.already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't
:13:46. > :13:47.know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky
:13:48. > :13:51.situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first
:13:52. > :13:54.foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit
:13:55. > :13:56.was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,
:13:57. > :13:59.keen for a new trading relationship with the United States
:14:00. > :14:01.in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated
:14:02. > :14:03.the new US President for his "stunning election victory"
:14:04. > :14:05.but might not have intended to be pictured walking
:14:06. > :14:07.through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping
:14:08. > :14:12.Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade
:14:13. > :14:14.will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President
:14:15. > :14:23.told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister
:14:24. > :14:26.said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries
:14:27. > :14:30.increased their defence spending It's been announced
:14:31. > :14:36.that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,
:14:37. > :14:37.with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead
:14:38. > :14:43.to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as
:14:44. > :14:47.Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's
:14:48. > :14:50.going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear
:14:51. > :14:52.to Donald Trump her continued
:14:53. > :14:58.backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over
:14:59. > :15:00.the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer
:15:01. > :15:03.to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues
:15:04. > :15:07.that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former
:15:08. > :15:22.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's
:15:23. > :15:27.decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the
:15:28. > :15:31.United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which
:15:32. > :15:35.appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He
:15:36. > :15:39.was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to
:15:40. > :15:47.protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven
:15:48. > :15:53.countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if
:15:54. > :15:59.he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just
:16:00. > :16:03.look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela
:16:04. > :16:09.Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,
:16:10. > :16:12.look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all
:16:13. > :16:18.of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria
:16:19. > :16:22.literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in
:16:23. > :16:26.virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have
:16:27. > :16:31.been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of
:16:32. > :16:36.a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of
:16:37. > :16:40.persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But
:16:41. > :16:44.you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you
:16:45. > :16:48.said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing
:16:49. > :16:55.Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees
:16:56. > :17:03.into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.
:17:04. > :17:07.He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those
:17:08. > :17:12.comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's
:17:13. > :17:17.policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is
:17:18. > :17:20.fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this
:17:21. > :17:29.country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any
:17:30. > :17:34.terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have
:17:35. > :17:39.been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have
:17:40. > :17:43.been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why
:17:44. > :17:47.would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people
:17:48. > :17:51.that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into
:17:52. > :17:56.Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not
:17:57. > :18:00.for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening
:18:01. > :18:05.process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with
:18:06. > :18:10.the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to
:18:11. > :18:13.America, they then go through biometric screening, database
:18:14. > :18:24.screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence
:18:25. > :18:32.agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It
:18:33. > :18:36.is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we
:18:37. > :18:38.have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald
:18:39. > :18:45.Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and
:18:46. > :18:48.then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned
:18:49. > :18:54.he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since
:18:55. > :19:00.you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing
:19:01. > :19:04.you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not
:19:05. > :19:07.asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you
:19:08. > :19:14.take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,
:19:15. > :19:17.of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in
:19:18. > :19:21.terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say
:19:22. > :19:24.it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the
:19:25. > :19:28.world have not been included in this. The point is they have made
:19:29. > :19:33.this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about
:19:34. > :19:40.the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him
:19:41. > :19:44.to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you
:19:45. > :19:48.feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total
:19:49. > :19:53.ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that
:19:54. > :19:57.what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be
:19:58. > :20:05.talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We
:20:06. > :20:10.will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What
:20:11. > :20:17.advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa
:20:18. > :20:20.May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the
:20:21. > :20:24.Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been
:20:25. > :20:30.surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who
:20:31. > :20:33.say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make
:20:34. > :20:37.it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can
:20:38. > :20:41.be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister
:20:42. > :20:47.who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally
:20:48. > :20:52.herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial
:20:53. > :20:56.president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building
:20:57. > :21:01.a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking
:21:02. > :21:06.of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is
:21:07. > :21:10.controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke
:21:11. > :21:15.in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it
:21:16. > :21:18.is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the
:21:19. > :21:23.British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I
:21:24. > :21:27.think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in
:21:28. > :21:31.her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato
:21:32. > :21:37.members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there
:21:38. > :21:42.is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the
:21:43. > :21:45.Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms
:21:46. > :21:53.of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good
:21:54. > :21:57.as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying
:21:58. > :22:02.this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control
:22:03. > :22:05.immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good
:22:06. > :22:10.speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I
:22:11. > :22:13.could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying
:22:14. > :22:20.things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have
:22:21. > :22:23.a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can
:22:24. > :22:28.see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a
:22:29. > :22:31.priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French
:22:32. > :22:37.elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I
:22:38. > :22:40.worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress
:22:41. > :22:46.and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.
:22:47. > :22:51.What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say
:22:52. > :22:54.OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough
:22:55. > :23:00.stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a
:23:01. > :23:04.deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot
:23:05. > :23:10.sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,
:23:11. > :23:14.we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,
:23:15. > :23:19.maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until
:23:20. > :23:23.we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will
:23:24. > :23:27.find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and
:23:28. > :23:31.countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that
:23:32. > :23:36.will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the
:23:37. > :23:40.Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you
:23:41. > :23:44.agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.
:23:45. > :23:49.If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you
:23:50. > :23:53.approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any
:23:54. > :23:59.political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,
:24:00. > :24:02.there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip
:24:03. > :24:07.loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,
:24:08. > :24:12.they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and
:24:13. > :24:16.I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that
:24:17. > :24:19.says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen
:24:20. > :24:24.to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the
:24:25. > :24:29.Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over
:24:30. > :24:34.this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition
:24:35. > :24:39.will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's
:24:40. > :24:43.best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of
:24:44. > :24:49.Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to
:24:50. > :24:58.fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.
:24:59. > :25:02.If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,
:25:03. > :25:06.there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always
:25:07. > :25:12.been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't
:25:13. > :25:18.it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it
:25:19. > :25:22.does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and
:25:23. > :25:24.Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for
:25:25. > :25:26.being with us. It's just gone 11.25,
:25:27. > :25:28.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:25:29. > :25:30.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll
:25:31. > :25:44.be talking to our political panel. Welcome to Sunday Politics East,
:25:45. > :25:46.I'm Stewart White. Later in the programme -
:25:47. > :25:49.green fields to become garden towns With us this week -
:25:50. > :25:55.Essex MP James Cleverly, for the Conservatives,
:25:56. > :25:57.and Andy Sawford, the former But let's start with that High Court
:25:58. > :26:05.ruling this week about Brexit. The Article 50 bill has been
:26:06. > :26:08.introduced to Parliament and in due Labour says their MPs
:26:09. > :26:19.should back the bill, The Shadow Business Secretary,
:26:20. > :26:22.Norwich South MP has said he will not vote
:26:23. > :26:25.against the triggering of Article 50 next week but has not ruled out
:26:26. > :26:28.voting against the final deal I think that most of the people
:26:29. > :26:33.who voted for me know that I have my views
:26:34. > :26:35.on the European Union, and on the relationship
:26:36. > :26:37.that we should now have with the single market,
:26:38. > :26:39.and with other areas of Europe. That is what I will be doing
:26:40. > :26:42.in the coming weeks, as will other MPs,
:26:43. > :26:45.and that is what the Supreme Court decision was about, giving
:26:46. > :26:47.Parliament a say on that. I'm going to do that and do it
:26:48. > :26:50.with the interests of Norwich When it comes to the final vote
:26:51. > :26:55.on whether we trigger Article 50 and what it looks like,
:26:56. > :26:57.I will make my decision based Of our other Labour MPs,
:26:58. > :27:02.Daniel Zeichner from Cambridge says Gavin Shuker from Luton South says
:27:03. > :27:10.that he will abstain, but the Luton North MP
:27:11. > :27:12.Kelvin Hopkins will vote for it, it's something
:27:13. > :27:23.that he's always wanted. Andy, if you were still an MP, what
:27:24. > :27:28.would you have done? To trigger Article 50. The majority of people
:27:29. > :27:32.in Corby voted to leave the EU. I would have done so with a heavy
:27:33. > :27:35.heart because I think we should stay in the EU and try to reform it but
:27:36. > :27:40.when you have a referendum you should respect the outcome. This
:27:41. > :27:44.argument that if you are a local party, a local constituency that
:27:45. > :27:50.voted against Brexit, that you have a mandate therefore to vote against
:27:51. > :27:55.it, do you approve? I think that referendums are quite unique for MPs
:27:56. > :27:58.to deal with. I voted on a number of contentious issues where I had
:27:59. > :28:04.constituents expressing strong views and an example would be marriage
:28:05. > :28:08.equality or bombing in Syria, but it is difficult to know where the
:28:09. > :28:12.balance of opinion lies in your constituency. You need to listen and
:28:13. > :28:16.make a judgment. In the referendum it is different. The public would
:28:17. > :28:22.feel cheated in the democracy if he did not worry on with that. There
:28:23. > :28:26.would be some Tory MPs who would have a similar debate? For the
:28:27. > :28:31.Conservative Party, we are in an easy position, because it was the
:28:32. > :28:36.Conservative manifesto that said we would have a referendum and that we
:28:37. > :28:42.would abide by the decision of that referendum. And so, for the
:28:43. > :28:46.Conservative MPs, even those who campaigned to remain members of the
:28:47. > :28:51.EU, they are abiding by their manifesto commitment to abide by the
:28:52. > :28:57.referendum results. For us, it is a lot easier and... Does that mean you
:28:58. > :29:02.don't expect anyone to be absent? That is not quite what I said! The
:29:03. > :29:08.vast majority, I think, in the recent, or just before Christmas,
:29:09. > :29:11.there was a motion which Labour put forward, the government amended, and
:29:12. > :29:17.one of the lines in it was that Article 50 would be triggered by the
:29:18. > :29:26.31st of March, 2017. And it was carried by 455 votes against 75. So
:29:27. > :29:32.50 process will be started by the 50 process will be started by the
:29:33. > :29:36.31st of March, after a vote in the House of Commons. OK, let's move on.
:29:37. > :29:40.Of course, both of you are from areas where the government says it
:29:41. > :29:43.It is the latest scheme to try to address the chronic
:29:44. > :29:47.Ten years ago, 26,000 houses were built in the east,
:29:48. > :29:49.but the figure fell dramatically during the financial crisis.
:29:50. > :29:51.In 2014, 17,000 new homes were built.
:29:52. > :29:54.That went up to 21,500 last year, but is still well below the 30,000
:29:55. > :30:04.The new proposal is for three new developments in this region,
:30:05. > :30:06.with 10,000 new homes near Harlow, and smaller garden villages
:30:07. > :30:08.near Brentwood and at Deenethorpe near Corby.
:30:09. > :30:10.Of course, the most successful new town is Milton Keynes,
:30:11. > :30:12.which celebrated its 50th anniversary this week.
:30:13. > :30:29.One of the answers to London's housing crisis of the late 1960s
:30:30. > :30:34.Now it has a population of more than a quarter of a million.
:30:35. > :30:36.The proposed new developments nearby are on a much smaller scale
:30:37. > :30:40.When it comes to housing, here are the home truths.
:30:41. > :30:49.By far of the biggest developments proposed
:30:50. > :30:52.for our region is at Gilston Park, just outside of Harlow,
:30:53. > :30:54.where they are planning 10,000 new homes made out
:30:55. > :31:01.All of them self-contained, with their own shops and schools.
:31:02. > :31:05.The thing is, it will be on green belt.
:31:06. > :31:23.For some, that is crossing a red line.
:31:24. > :31:26.It's grade 2 arable land, amongst the best lands in Hertfordshire.
:31:27. > :31:29.For Spike Hughes, the new garden town would be over his garden fence.
:31:30. > :31:33.Plans to build here were batted away ten years ago because of questions
:31:34. > :31:36.over sewage, but he says they are back like a bad smell.
:31:37. > :31:41.There are a number of reasons why we should build up.
:31:42. > :31:44.First of all, because we can and we couldn't in the 1930s.
:31:45. > :31:46.The second thing is, if you put the population
:31:47. > :31:48.where the infrastructure already exists, in other words,
:31:49. > :31:54.you build in the vicinity of the stations and the shops
:31:55. > :31:56.and everything else, you don't get the
:31:57. > :31:58.Imagine having 25,000 people in these fields,
:31:59. > :32:01.getting up in the morning, and migrating out to find
:32:02. > :32:03.employment, then coming back in the evening.
:32:04. > :32:07.We are walking towards what will be one of the first villages
:32:08. > :32:11.Harlow is set to grow 20% in the next 15 years, so people
:32:12. > :32:15.The leader of East Herts Council took me to an old quarry
:32:16. > :32:18.at the edge of Gilson Park, to point out it isn't
:32:19. > :32:21.all luscious fertile green belt, but she does concede that green belt
:32:22. > :32:29.Within East Herts, we know that in the next 20-30 years we have
:32:30. > :32:33.The only way to do that, within the government planning
:32:34. > :32:35.guidance, is for it to be put into areas where you already
:32:36. > :32:48.And sadly, some of it has to go on to green belt.
:32:49. > :32:50.A two-hour drive from Gilston is the Deene Park Estates
:32:51. > :32:53.near Corby, owned by the Brudenell family for 500 years.
:32:54. > :32:55.The former Deenethorpe Airfield is part of the estate,
:32:56. > :33:01.and that is where they are planning a garden village.
:33:02. > :33:10.In the Second World War, this was home to the 401st bombing
:33:11. > :33:15.of the United States Air Force, the flying fortresses
:33:16. > :33:20.Now, it will become home to a new village of 1500 houses,
:33:21. > :33:26.Nearby Corby Borough Council is concerned the new development
:33:27. > :33:28.will put pressure on its services, but Mark Coombs, the estate manager
:33:29. > :33:36.There will be infrastructure put in, such as a school and so on.
:33:37. > :33:38.It is not designed to be a dormant village.
:33:39. > :33:41.It is designed to live and breathe within its own context.
:33:42. > :33:43.Of course there will be cross boundary interface, if you like,
:33:44. > :33:45.of course people will be using facilities within
:33:46. > :33:48.the locality, but equally, people with the locality can use
:33:49. > :33:54.This is no done deal, there is plenty of talking to be
:33:55. > :33:57.done before the lands are cleared for take-off and the hard hats
:33:58. > :34:08.move in, and some hard questions to answer too.
:34:09. > :34:14.They are hard questions, but actually, are you in favour of
:34:15. > :34:17.building on green belt land? I think that the proposals that were put
:34:18. > :34:21.forward for these new garden villages and garden towns are a
:34:22. > :34:25.really good balance, protecting rural Britain as much as possible
:34:26. > :34:29.but recognising there are areas of the country, in the East of England
:34:30. > :34:34.in particular, where there is a massive surplus of demand for new
:34:35. > :34:39.homes. If you want to address that, you can either shoehorn extra homes
:34:40. > :34:48.on the edges of villages and towns, and put additional pressure on the
:34:49. > :34:50.infrastructure already there, or be bold and build new developments, and
:34:51. > :34:52.preload both of the physical infrastructure, the roads and things
:34:53. > :34:59.like that, but also soft infrastructure, like schools and
:35:00. > :35:04.surgeries. Corby is the fastest growing town in the country, and a
:35:05. > :35:09.lot of it is on Brownfield land, like the former steelworks. This is
:35:10. > :35:13.an airfield. This is a great idea. I would say to James and his party,
:35:14. > :35:19.get on with it. They have announced other initiatives in the past. But
:35:20. > :35:22.both parties do that, don't they? They announce things... The
:35:23. > :35:26.responsibility to move forward lies with the party in government right
:35:27. > :35:29.now, if you are a young person watching this programme in the
:35:30. > :35:33.region who cannot see a time where they can afford a home, you are
:35:34. > :35:38.looking to the party in power to get on with it. Isn't there a danger
:35:39. > :35:47.that you will have urban sprawl if we keep building houses, which will
:35:48. > :35:50.take us all the way from the A12 almost to the M1? Good design is
:35:51. > :35:54.essential, if you have a perspective where they should not be more
:35:55. > :35:58.housing in the region, you will let down all of those people... That is
:35:59. > :36:02.what some people would want? It is unfortunate and I would say to those
:36:03. > :36:05.people you may have children or grandchildren yourself, think about
:36:06. > :36:09.how they will be able to live in their own communities. We don't want
:36:10. > :36:12.people to think that they cannot live in our region, we need to
:36:13. > :36:19.develop sensibly and there are great examples that this region is home to
:36:20. > :36:23.some of the original garden cities, and new towns, like Harlow, Corby
:36:24. > :36:30.and Milton Keynes. If you do it well, and I hope this covenant gets
:36:31. > :36:39.on it -- hopes the government can get on it. And Braintree is a
:36:40. > :36:44.fantastic example, we have a garden village just outside, and it is
:36:45. > :36:47.love. The architecture is great and the community is cohesive. It
:36:48. > :36:53.functions very well as a community so I do think that there are
:36:54. > :36:57.opportunities. I take Andy's criticisms on board, but we've been
:36:58. > :37:02.through a prolonged period of economic downturn, and the
:37:03. > :37:06.government has set aside ?2.3 billion to kick-start developments.
:37:07. > :37:11.I do think that when you say that people are uncomfortable with some
:37:12. > :37:16.of these developments... They think we need it, but they do not want it
:37:17. > :37:19.near them. I hear them say that, and often I hear them say that their
:37:20. > :37:24.children or grandchildren have to move to London or Cambridge to get
:37:25. > :37:27.jobs. If we can keep those young families, the people who will be
:37:28. > :37:33.employing other people locally, in the region, that is good news for
:37:34. > :37:36.the area. Do you agree on this? You can build public support if you do
:37:37. > :37:40.it in the right places, there are examples in the region. With garden
:37:41. > :37:43.cities and garden villages committee can get the local communities on
:37:44. > :37:45.board. Now our round up of the political
:37:46. > :37:48.week, in Sixty Seconds, Chelmsford Prison in the news
:37:49. > :37:53.after a prisoner there killed himself was raised in the house this
:37:54. > :37:57.week by the city's MP. He called on the Justice
:37:58. > :37:59.Secretary to come and see And I will say I'm keen to visit
:38:00. > :38:05.Chelmsford myself to come and meet the honourable gentleman
:38:06. > :38:07.there and see the situation The Science Minister came to Norwich
:38:08. > :38:16.to unveil the government's new industrial strategy,
:38:17. > :38:18.which could see millions of pounds worth of investment coming
:38:19. > :38:20.to our science parks. We've always said we would put
:38:21. > :38:23.science and innovation at the heart of the industrial strategy
:38:24. > :38:25.and today, with the publication of this important green paper,
:38:26. > :38:30.you can see we've done just that. Plans to widen the A12
:38:31. > :38:32.in Sussex have been unveiled The scheme would increase the road
:38:33. > :38:40.to three lanes each way And visiting sixth formers
:38:41. > :38:47.in Cambridge this week to talk about the importance of voting,
:38:48. > :38:49.the constitution minister heard one student hit out at the portrayal
:38:50. > :38:54.of young people in the media. With millennials in the media,
:38:55. > :38:59.they talk about how they are almost lazy and unwilling to do stuff,
:39:00. > :39:02.and that has a huge impact on why young people,
:39:03. > :39:19.especially 18-24-year-olds, We have an industrial strategy, what
:39:20. > :39:24.do you make of it? It is window dressing from the government, they
:39:25. > :39:28.have a massive problem. Huge cuts to university funding will affect the
:39:29. > :39:32.region, they talk about more research funding, no idea as to
:39:33. > :39:36.where it will come from. Significant issues with trade coming out of us
:39:37. > :39:40.leaving the EU and industrial strategy has a lot of warm words.
:39:41. > :39:48.And the green paper is nowhere near being put into practice. It means
:39:49. > :39:57.very little. Tell him he is wrong! He would say that... We are an
:39:58. > :40:02.incredibly exciting point in our history. Brexit means that we have
:40:03. > :40:09.to look at other markets, and be more competitive. I think the
:40:10. > :40:13.investment in training and skills is... You are unsure about it
:40:14. > :40:18.either? It is absolutely the right direction of travel. And where is
:40:19. > :40:23.the industry in it? The big difference is that we will try and
:40:24. > :40:26.pick and choose, that is where industrial strategy is as the four
:40:27. > :40:30.night. That is one of the most vacuous documents I've seen in a
:40:31. > :40:32.long time! Thank you to both of you for being
:40:33. > :40:34.with us this week. air-pollution. Thank you for being
:40:35. > :40:40.here. Welcome back and let's get back
:40:41. > :40:44.to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven
:40:45. > :40:50.mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,
:40:51. > :40:53.Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK
:40:54. > :41:06.should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong
:41:07. > :41:11.for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be
:41:12. > :41:15.challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should
:41:16. > :41:19.come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.
:41:20. > :41:24.Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long
:41:25. > :41:29.term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going
:41:30. > :41:35.to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be
:41:36. > :41:39.anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe
:41:40. > :41:43.territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until
:41:44. > :41:48.summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people
:41:49. > :41:52.coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees
:41:53. > :41:56.from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on
:41:57. > :42:02.Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in
:42:03. > :42:06.mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world
:42:07. > :42:09.that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when
:42:10. > :42:15.it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the
:42:16. > :42:20.civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500
:42:21. > :42:29.Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a
:42:30. > :42:32.hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,
:42:33. > :42:38.although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is
:42:39. > :42:42.discovering that being a president is different from being a business
:42:43. > :42:45.man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a
:42:46. > :42:51.backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss
:42:52. > :42:55.with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,
:42:56. > :42:59.and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial
:43:00. > :43:04.ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any
:43:05. > :43:09.opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the
:43:10. > :43:14.streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an
:43:15. > :43:18.international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit
:43:19. > :43:21.are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have
:43:22. > :43:25.suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you
:43:26. > :43:30.have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal
:43:31. > :43:36.Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who
:43:37. > :43:43.would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one
:43:44. > :43:47.subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in
:43:48. > :43:51.front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.
:43:52. > :43:54.Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played
:43:55. > :43:58.host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we
:43:59. > :44:04.have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how
:44:05. > :44:08.serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often
:44:09. > :44:15.are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still
:44:16. > :44:18.won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place
:44:19. > :44:22.in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the
:44:23. > :44:28.opposite the next day. Brown did the same.
:44:29. > :44:37.Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide
:44:38. > :44:40.because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on
:44:41. > :44:45.the major government, even though their position on the single
:44:46. > :44:50.currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of
:44:51. > :44:54.leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to
:44:55. > :44:58.dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over
:44:59. > :45:02.Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,
:45:03. > :45:07.but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in
:45:08. > :45:13.danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political
:45:14. > :45:16.conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we
:45:17. > :45:21.are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that
:45:22. > :45:25.vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would
:45:26. > :45:29.have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece
:45:30. > :45:36.of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial
:45:37. > :45:40.world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to
:45:41. > :45:44.worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the
:45:45. > :45:48.legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a
:45:49. > :45:54.big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year
:45:55. > :45:57.is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely
:45:58. > :46:02.hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an
:46:03. > :46:06.incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you
:46:07. > :46:10.politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've
:46:11. > :46:15.already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You
:46:16. > :46:20.have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to
:46:21. > :46:25.stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,
:46:26. > :46:29.and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we
:46:30. > :46:33.have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if
:46:34. > :46:36.it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will
:46:37. > :46:41.be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said
:46:42. > :46:47.regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU
:46:48. > :46:53.citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get
:46:54. > :46:59.through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all
:47:00. > :47:04.know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it
:47:05. > :47:08.won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with
:47:09. > :47:12.those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but
:47:13. > :47:17.the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's
:47:18. > :47:21.already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU
:47:22. > :47:26.governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit
:47:27. > :47:29.for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it
:47:30. > :47:34.through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey
:47:35. > :47:38.through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has
:47:39. > :47:44.been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there
:47:45. > :47:50.will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of
:47:51. > :47:56.the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and
:47:57. > :48:00.see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means
:48:01. > :48:05.unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s
:48:06. > :48:13.when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony
:48:14. > :48:19.Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in
:48:20. > :48:25.or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.
:48:26. > :48:27.But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this
:48:28. > :48:29.week. The Daily Politics is back
:48:30. > :48:33.tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here
:48:34. > :48:36.on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:48:37. > :48:42.it's the Sunday Politics.