:00:40. > :00:43.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:44. > :00:46.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:47. > :00:55.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:56. > :00:57.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:58. > :01:04.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:05. > :01:09.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:10. > :01:12.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:13. > :01:16.Here in the east: council tax bills across the region and are set
:01:17. > :01:18.to rise as local authorities struggle trying to provide social
:01:19. > :01:34.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:35. > :01:40.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:41. > :01:46.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:47. > :01:49.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:50. > :01:55.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:56. > :02:02.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:03. > :02:04.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:05. > :02:21.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:22. > :02:26.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:27. > :02:29.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:30. > :02:34.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:35. > :02:36.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:37. > :02:39.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:40. > :02:50.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:51. > :02:55.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:56. > :02:58.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:02:59. > :03:03.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:04. > :03:08.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:09. > :03:15.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:16. > :03:24.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:25. > :03:29.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:30. > :03:33.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:34. > :03:37.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:38. > :03:44.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:45. > :03:47.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:48. > :03:52.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:53. > :03:57.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:58. > :04:01.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:02. > :04:05.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:06. > :04:13.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:14. > :04:20.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:21. > :04:24.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:25. > :04:34.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:35. > :04:39.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:40. > :04:43.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:44. > :04:48.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:49. > :04:53.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:54. > :04:57.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:58. > :05:03.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:04. > :05:07.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:08. > :05:11.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:12. > :05:18.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:19. > :05:21.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:22. > :05:26.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:27. > :05:29.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:30. > :05:33.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:34. > :05:40.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:41. > :05:47.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:48. > :05:50.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:51. > :05:55.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:56. > :06:00.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:01. > :06:07.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:08. > :06:13.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:14. > :06:20.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:21. > :06:25.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:26. > :06:28.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:29. > :06:32.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:33. > :06:36.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:37. > :06:42.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:43. > :06:46.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:47. > :06:49.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:50. > :06:54.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:55. > :06:55.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:56. > :07:00.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:01. > :07:01.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:02. > :07:04.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:05. > :07:06.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:07. > :07:12.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:13. > :07:14.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:15. > :07:16.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:17. > :07:22.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:23. > :07:30.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:31. > :07:32.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:33. > :07:41.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:42. > :07:43.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:44. > :07:45.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:46. > :07:49.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:50. > :08:04.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:05. > :08:07.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:08. > :08:09.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:10. > :08:12.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:13. > :08:14.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:15. > :08:16.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:17. > :08:19.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:20. > :08:21.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:22. > :08:23.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:24. > :08:25.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:26. > :08:39.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:40. > :08:41.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:42. > :08:44.He's got a book out next month called
:08:45. > :08:46.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:47. > :08:54.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:55. > :08:58.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:08:59. > :09:04.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:05. > :09:07.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:08. > :09:11.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:12. > :09:16.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:17. > :09:19.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:20. > :09:23.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:24. > :09:30.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:31. > :09:35.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:36. > :09:38.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:39. > :09:43.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:44. > :09:47.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:48. > :09:53.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:54. > :10:00.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:01. > :10:04.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:05. > :10:08.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:09. > :10:12.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:13. > :10:16.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:17. > :10:20.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:21. > :10:25.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:26. > :10:29.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:30. > :10:34.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:35. > :10:39.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:40. > :10:43.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:44. > :10:47.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:48. > :10:53.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:54. > :10:57.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:58. > :11:00.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:01. > :11:04.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:05. > :11:07.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:08. > :11:12.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:13. > :11:19.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:20. > :11:23.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:24. > :11:28.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:29. > :11:32.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:33. > :11:36.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:37. > :11:40.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:41. > :11:46.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:47. > :11:49.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:50. > :11:54.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:55. > :12:01.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:02. > :12:04.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:05. > :12:09.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:10. > :12:13.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:14. > :12:19.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:20. > :12:25.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:26. > :12:29.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:30. > :12:34.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:35. > :12:39.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:40. > :12:44.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:45. > :12:48.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:49. > :12:53.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:54. > :12:58.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:59. > :12:59.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:00. > :13:02.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:03. > :13:05.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:06. > :13:08.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:09. > :13:10.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:11. > :13:13.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:14. > :13:15.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:16. > :13:17.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:18. > :13:19.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:20. > :13:27.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:28. > :13:30.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:31. > :13:33.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:34. > :13:36.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:37. > :13:46.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:47. > :13:59.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:00. > :14:03.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:04. > :14:07.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:08. > :14:12.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:13. > :14:17.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:18. > :14:25.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:26. > :14:28.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:29. > :14:32.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:33. > :14:38.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:39. > :14:42.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:43. > :14:47.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:48. > :14:50.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:51. > :14:55.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:56. > :15:01.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:02. > :15:05.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:06. > :15:13.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:14. > :15:17.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:18. > :15:23.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:24. > :15:27.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:28. > :15:32.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:33. > :15:36.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:37. > :15:42.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:43. > :15:47.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:48. > :15:51.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:52. > :15:55.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:56. > :15:59.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:00. > :16:03.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:04. > :16:08.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:09. > :16:12.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:13. > :16:22.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:23. > :16:29.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:30. > :16:35.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:36. > :16:42.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:43. > :16:46.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:47. > :16:50.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:51. > :16:55.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:56. > :16:59.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:00. > :17:02.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:03. > :17:07.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:08. > :17:14.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:15. > :17:20.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:21. > :17:28.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:29. > :17:32.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:33. > :17:37.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:38. > :17:42.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:43. > :17:45.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:46. > :17:51.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:52. > :17:56.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:57. > :17:59.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:00. > :18:04.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:05. > :18:07.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:08. > :18:13.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:14. > :18:18.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:19. > :18:22.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:23. > :18:28.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:29. > :18:30.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:31. > :18:34.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:35. > :18:41.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:42. > :18:46.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:47. > :18:51.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:52. > :18:54.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:55. > :18:59.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:00. > :19:03.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:04. > :19:09.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:10. > :19:13.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:14. > :19:18.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:19. > :19:22.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:23. > :19:27.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:28. > :19:34.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:35. > :19:38.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:39. > :19:42.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:43. > :19:47.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:48. > :19:52.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:53. > :19:57.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:58. > :20:00.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:01. > :20:05.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:06. > :20:10.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:11. > :20:16.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:17. > :20:19.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:20. > :20:25.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:26. > :20:32.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:33. > :20:36.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:37. > :20:40.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:41. > :20:46.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:47. > :20:49.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:50. > :20:53.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:54. > :20:56.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:57. > :21:00.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:01. > :21:03.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:04. > :21:08.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:09. > :21:14.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:15. > :21:19.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:20. > :21:24.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:25. > :21:28.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:29. > :21:34.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:35. > :21:40.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:41. > :21:43.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:44. > :21:47.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:48. > :21:51.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:52. > :21:55.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:56. > :22:01.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:02. > :22:05.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:06. > :22:09.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:10. > :22:15.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:16. > :22:20.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:21. > :22:23.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:24. > :22:26.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:27. > :22:30.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:31. > :22:34.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:35. > :22:38.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:39. > :22:44.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:45. > :22:47.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:48. > :22:52.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:53. > :22:57.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:58. > :23:01.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:02. > :23:05.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:06. > :23:08.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:09. > :23:13.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:14. > :23:17.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:18. > :23:31.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:32. > :23:35.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:36. > :23:38.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:39. > :23:41.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:42. > :23:44.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:45. > :23:48.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:49. > :23:53.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:54. > :23:58.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:23:59. > :24:04.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:05. > :24:09.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:10. > :24:14.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:15. > :24:17.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:18. > :24:23.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:24. > :24:29.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:30. > :24:32.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:33. > :24:36.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:37. > :24:41.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:42. > :24:46.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:47. > :24:50.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:51. > :24:54.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:55. > :24:58.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:24:59. > :25:03.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:04. > :25:06.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:07. > :25:10.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:11. > :25:14.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:15. > :25:20.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:21. > :25:26.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:27. > :25:31.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:32. > :25:35.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:36. > :25:38.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:39. > :25:43.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:44. > :25:48.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:49. > :25:51.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:52. > :25:57.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:58. > :26:02.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:03. > :26:06.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:07. > :26:10.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:11. > :26:13.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:14. > :26:17.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:18. > :26:22.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:23. > :26:26.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:27. > :26:30.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:31. > :26:33.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:34. > :26:42.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:43. > :26:50.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:51. > :26:53.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:54. > :26:57.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:58. > :27:03.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:04. > :27:05.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:06. > :27:08.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:09. > :27:13.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:14. > :27:19.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:20. > :27:22.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:23. > :27:25.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:26. > :27:32.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:33. > :27:36.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:37. > :27:43.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:44. > :27:46.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:47. > :27:50.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:51. > :27:53.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:54. > :27:59.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:00. > :28:04.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:05. > :28:07.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:08. > :28:11.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:12. > :28:15.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:16. > :28:20.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:21. > :28:25.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:26. > :28:28.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:29. > :28:30.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:31. > :28:34.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:35. > :28:36.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:37. > :28:37.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:38. > :28:40.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:41. > :28:43.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:44. > :28:45.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:46. > :28:51.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:52. > :28:54.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:55. > :29:01.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:02. > :29:06.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:07. > :29:13.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:14. > :29:16.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:17. > :29:24.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:25. > :29:26.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:27. > :29:29.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:30. > :29:32.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:33. > :29:35.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:36. > :29:38.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:39. > :29:40.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:41. > :29:43.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:44. > :29:48.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:49. > :29:55.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:56. > :30:00.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:01. > :30:03.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:04. > :30:06.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:07. > :30:16.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:17. > :30:19.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:20. > :30:24.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:25. > :30:26.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:27. > :30:30.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:31. > :30:35.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:36. > :30:37.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:38. > :30:38.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:39. > :30:40.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:41. > :30:44.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:45. > :30:48.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:49. > :30:51.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:52. > :30:54.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:55. > :30:57.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:58. > :30:59.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:00. > :31:01.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:02. > :31:05.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:06. > :31:08.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:09. > :31:11.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:12. > :31:13.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:14. > :31:17.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:18. > :31:27.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:28. > :31:30.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:31. > :31:32.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:33. > :31:38.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:39. > :31:41.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:42. > :31:44.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:45. > :31:47.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:48. > :31:51.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:52. > :31:53.It is still something people care about.
:31:54. > :31:56.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:57. > :32:01.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:02. > :32:04.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:05. > :32:09.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:10. > :32:11.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:12. > :32:14.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:15. > :32:17.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:18. > :32:37.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:38. > :32:48.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:49. > :32:56.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:57. > :33:04.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:05. > :33:06.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:07. > :33:14.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:15. > :33:19.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:20. > :33:24.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:25. > :33:30.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:31. > :33:34.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:35. > :33:40.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:41. > :33:44.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:45. > :33:49.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:50. > :33:57.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:58. > :34:01.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:02. > :34:11.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:12. > :34:16.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:17. > :34:19.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:20. > :34:23.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:24. > :34:27.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:28. > :34:31.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:32. > :34:35.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:36. > :34:39.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:40. > :34:44.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:45. > :34:51.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:52. > :34:56.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:57. > :35:03.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:04. > :35:08.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:09. > :35:12.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:13. > :35:17.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:18. > :35:21.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:22. > :35:29.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:30. > :35:32.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:33. > :35:37.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:38. > :35:43.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:44. > :35:47.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:48. > :35:52.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:53. > :35:56.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:57. > :35:58.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:35:59. > :36:02.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:03. > :36:06.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:07. > :36:11.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:12. > :36:15.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:16. > :36:19.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:20. > :36:23.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:24. > :36:29.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:30. > :36:35.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:36. > :36:39.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:40. > :36:43.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:44. > :36:47.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:48. > :36:52.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:53. > :36:55.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:56. > :36:59.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:37:00. > :37:05.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:06. > :37:08.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:09. > :37:12.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:13. > :37:16.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:17. > :37:20.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:21. > :37:26.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:27. > :37:32.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:33. > :37:35.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:36. > :37:39.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:40. > :37:42.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:43. > :37:47.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:48. > :37:51.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:52. > :37:53.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:54. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:12.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:13. > :38:14.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics East.
:38:15. > :38:24.Later in the programme, Council tax rises across
:38:25. > :38:29.the board to help pay for social care.
:38:30. > :38:31.And keep the wheels of local government turning.
:38:32. > :38:33.We are at breaking point and I think at
:38:34. > :38:35.this point in time I am not prepared to stop services.
:38:36. > :38:38.With us this week, Sharon Taylor, Labour leader of
:38:39. > :38:39.Stevenage Council, and Stuart Jackson,
:38:40. > :38:40.the Conservative MP for
:38:41. > :38:42.Peterborough, who works with David Davis, the secretary
:38:43. > :38:51.enable us to leave the EU cleared its latest
:38:52. > :38:55.stage in the Commons and
:38:56. > :39:01.Rebels on the Labour side included Norwich MP Clive Lewis who has
:39:02. > :39:03.resigned for his front bench role as the Shadow Business Secretary.
:39:04. > :39:05.But for others the vote was the culmination
:39:06. > :39:10.I spent many, many years pushing for this moment.
:39:11. > :39:17.I've triggered a by-election and caused a bit of a
:39:18. > :39:18.kerfuffle in my Clacton constituency, but ever
:39:19. > :39:24.in Clacton and was elected as their member of Parliament, I said to my
:39:25. > :39:27.constituents I would do anything I could to make sure Britain leaves
:39:28. > :39:31.the EU and that is now going happen and we know that is going to happen
:39:32. > :39:34.and I think it is great news and we will be a more prosperous,
:39:35. > :39:38.I do think it is important the Labour Party
:39:39. > :39:39.reflects both positions on
:39:40. > :39:43.this in the country is divided and so in some ways the surprise
:39:44. > :39:46.to me is more comment has not been made
:39:47. > :39:49.about the fact the Conservatives are now being taken over by the very
:39:50. > :39:51.few people who used to make John Major's
:39:52. > :39:55.That is the real coup that has happened in British
:39:56. > :39:57.Stewart Jackson, that is the real coup?
:39:58. > :40:03.And Daniel Zeichner is slightly out of
:40:04. > :40:06.order, if I'm honest, because you booted for
:40:07. > :40:09.the EU referendum bill in
:40:10. > :40:12.June 2015 which, not only enacted the referendum but promised, there
:40:13. > :40:14.was an agreement six to one, in the Commons
:40:15. > :40:24.we're going to vote against the enacting
:40:25. > :40:26.of Article 50, I think is
:40:27. > :40:29.Would you have voted, if it had gone the other way,
:40:30. > :40:33.Would you have said, my constituents wanted to
:40:34. > :40:36.It would have been difficult but if I
:40:37. > :40:41.had accepted the central premise we are trusting the people and
:40:42. > :40:44.Parliament had debated that and we had a referendum with a big
:40:45. > :40:51.debate I think it would be disingenuous for
:40:52. > :40:55.me then to have said you are wrong and I'm going to vote how I choose.
:40:56. > :40:57.I think that this likely what Daniel is doing,
:40:58. > :40:58.albeit he is a good and
:40:59. > :41:01.diligent MP for Cambridge I think he is wrong on this issue.
:41:02. > :41:04.When you look at the Labour Party from your
:41:05. > :41:07.position rather than the House of Commons, how do you think
:41:08. > :41:09.what has gone on there reflects on
:41:10. > :41:13.Well, I campaigned tirelessly for Remain, as are sure you know,
:41:14. > :41:16.and I think we now have a result which we have two act as it was.
:41:17. > :41:18.At the same with the general election,
:41:19. > :41:22.you take it on the chin if you don't win and I think there are some huge
:41:23. > :41:30.I think there are some big threats as well and I think
:41:31. > :41:32.it is right we take account of those, and for my
:41:33. > :41:40.major international companies, I think we have got to look at what
:41:41. > :41:43.the threats are to them and I'm sure we will be considering them but
:41:44. > :41:46.You've stood at the last general election.
:41:47. > :41:50.If you had been in the Commons you would not have gone
:41:51. > :41:53.I can't tell you how many times I have thought about
:41:54. > :42:06.It is an issue, and I totally respect Daniel's
:42:07. > :42:09.view, and Clive, that this was a view they
:42:10. > :42:12.a way that puts our country in jeopardy.
:42:13. > :42:16.This is not the right term for our country
:42:17. > :42:20.But of course Stevenage people voted, not overwhelmingly, but
:42:21. > :42:23.decisively to leave the EU so I would have had a very difficult
:42:24. > :42:27.I cannot tell you which way I would have gone.
:42:28. > :42:30.I am a very principled individual and feel very
:42:31. > :42:31.strongly that leaving the EU is the wrong
:42:32. > :42:32.decision for our country at
:42:33. > :42:38.Of course, it wasn't just the politicians
:42:39. > :42:42.Seven months ago we met with people from Suffolk who were working
:42:43. > :42:45.What do they think about the result now?
:42:46. > :42:48.Andrew Sinclair has been back to Suffolk to find out.
:42:49. > :42:50.There has always been a giant question mark outside
:42:51. > :43:03.But last year there was no question over
:43:04. > :43:04.where this college stood on
:43:05. > :43:07.This is where the then Prime Minister came to make
:43:08. > :43:12.This is a really massive decision for our country and is a huge
:43:13. > :43:21.Johnson came by touting for votes it was the campus
:43:22. > :43:23.provost no less who led the protests.
:43:24. > :43:25.There are no reputable arguments on the Leave side and I
:43:26. > :43:28.think all of the weight of evidence is clear
:43:29. > :43:29.we have a better future as
:43:30. > :43:38.Seven months on and some things have changed.
:43:39. > :43:41.The college has now been designated a University and the
:43:42. > :43:54.That side lost the argument and now what we have got to
:43:55. > :43:59.do is get on and make the best of it in the sense we have got to do for
:44:00. > :44:02.the communities we serve, the institutions we lead, we've got to
:44:03. > :44:10.He says the referendum vote has already made
:44:11. > :44:15.the University rethink its business plan and it is now looking at
:44:16. > :44:18.links with bodies outside of the EU and will try to
:44:19. > :44:21.recruit more students from the UK because the numbers coming from
:44:22. > :44:24.Higher education is potentially one of the
:44:25. > :44:27.most vulnerable sectors in the whole of the UK economy and it is a
:44:28. > :44:31.We need freedom of intellectual movement and there
:44:32. > :44:38.is also the capacity to share in joint research work
:44:39. > :44:45.because if UK researchers get cut out of
:44:46. > :44:47.international, particularly European, research work, there is no
:44:48. > :44:52.So, is this a mixed container or all the same?
:44:53. > :44:55.But here is someone who is not worrying about things going
:44:56. > :44:57.Suffolk businessman Stephen became one of the main faces
:44:58. > :45:07.I was rather chuffed to get that, I did
:45:08. > :45:10.The owner of a storage and import business, he told
:45:11. > :45:14.us this time last year he did not like the restrictions the EU put on
:45:15. > :45:18.trade or the amount of red tape coming out of Brussels.
:45:19. > :45:20.The issue with the EU we have is the
:45:21. > :45:29.If you printed it out it would be about one foot tall.
:45:30. > :45:32.There are multiple tariff headings for single items depending on what
:45:33. > :45:36.Seven months on, he is pleased Article 50 will
:45:37. > :45:41.soon be triggered but is frustrated about how long it is all taken.
:45:42. > :45:44.In business, if you decide to do something to get on and do it.
:45:45. > :45:47.This Government has taken seven months to
:45:48. > :45:50.say what they could have said six months ago.
:45:51. > :45:53.As someone who deals in trade how do you
:45:54. > :45:55.feel about being out of the
:45:56. > :45:58.customs union and not having free movement around Europe any
:45:59. > :46:06.Out of the customs union will add a level of complication because
:46:07. > :46:09.there will need to be paperwork between Europe and the UK.
:46:10. > :46:18.I am but I say there will need to be paperwork but you never know what
:46:19. > :46:23.This has been a very divisive result, hasn't
:46:24. > :46:27.Yes, unfortunately, and I am not sure why it remains so
:46:28. > :46:30.It is something a lot of people have been
:46:31. > :46:31.asking for a long time and
:46:32. > :46:34.we finally got the opportunity to have that vote.
:46:35. > :46:35.You don't think the country has changed adversely?
:46:36. > :46:46.So you haven't seen it change for the worse?
:46:47. > :46:48.Well, I think there is such a degree of
:46:49. > :46:51.uncertainty and think it is causing some problems for businesses across
:46:52. > :46:52.the board, whether large corporate companies
:46:53. > :46:54.like some of the ones in
:46:55. > :46:56.That degree of uncertainty is causing
:46:57. > :47:00.some problems and I think some of the people that voted Leave did
:47:01. > :47:03.think it was going to happen instantly and I think what we need
:47:04. > :47:07.to see is a clear vision and plan for the future of how, what this
:47:08. > :47:10.country is going to look like as a country outside the EU and what
:47:11. > :47:14.There are some possible opportunities in there, I am not
:47:15. > :47:20.side, if I'm honest, we got a clear vision
:47:21. > :47:21.about what the country would
:47:22. > :47:27.look like on the other side of this referendum.
:47:28. > :47:30.In the film we've heard, "Why didn't you do it six months ago?"
:47:31. > :47:35.Well, for people not involved in politics and
:47:36. > :47:37.Government it probably seems to have dragged
:47:38. > :47:47.fact is if you are in a club you have to abide by the rules until
:47:48. > :47:50.you leave and our international treaty obligations say we have to go
:47:51. > :47:52.through the proper procedures, Article 50, it takes time, we now
:47:53. > :47:55.have gone through Parliament and on to the High Court, Supreme Court,
:47:56. > :47:58.back to Parliament with an emphatic majority and now the time has come
:47:59. > :48:01.and by the end of March we will trigger
:48:02. > :48:02.Article 50 and start the
:48:03. > :48:11.You could have done it without the court cases though.
:48:12. > :48:14.It took Gina Miller to take you through the courts to get
:48:15. > :48:16.you back into Parliament and I think that was disgraceful.
:48:17. > :48:20.I would like to thank Gina Miller for supposedly
:48:21. > :48:27.It was trying to put the kibosh on Brexit.
:48:28. > :48:29.She has done us a favour because she has strengthened
:48:30. > :48:32.Parliamentary sovereignty and we are now closer to Article 50.
:48:33. > :48:34.That's what a lot of it was about, parliamentary sovereignty?
:48:35. > :48:37.It was, but we had to test in the court.
:48:38. > :48:38.It wasn't about wasting taxpayer money,
:48:39. > :48:40.we had to test the extent of Crown prerogative
:48:41. > :48:42.and we now know that and
:48:43. > :48:46.it has been established and we need to get on with the process.
:48:47. > :48:50.One thing about the red tape, I know that is a catchall phrase but all
:48:51. > :48:52.the paperwork he was saying he had to do
:48:53. > :48:55.because we were in the EU but it will get just
:48:56. > :49:02.To go back to higher education thing, science, innovation and
:49:03. > :49:04.technology, higher education, we are a superpower across the world
:49:05. > :49:06.and if we have a global outward looking
:49:07. > :49:12.outward facing approach to trade in the Commonwealth,
:49:13. > :49:16.as Sharon says we have a great future ahead of us
:49:17. > :49:20.and we have to get it right and get through
:49:21. > :49:25.those initial negotiations with the EU.
:49:26. > :49:27.Look how long it took Canada to negotiate their deal.
:49:28. > :49:30.We could end up with more paperwork and more
:49:31. > :49:34.complexity than you would have had in the EU and I think that is a big
:49:35. > :49:38.We are already compliant so it is not going to be a cliff edge,
:49:39. > :49:44.Now to the question of council tax and how much we will
:49:45. > :49:47.Our councils say they have never been under so
:49:48. > :49:50.much pressure with funding cuts from central Government and an increase
:49:51. > :49:54.in the national minimum wage and the growing
:49:55. > :49:59.Most authorities still have to approve their proposals but three of
:50:00. > :50:02.our councils are planning an increase of up to the 3% allowed by
:50:03. > :50:09.Northamptonshire and Milton Keynes hope to charge just a little more to
:50:10. > :50:12.help to pay for services but most of our councils are proposing an
:50:13. > :50:16.increase of between 4.5 and 4.99% in total.
:50:17. > :50:21.For an average band D property that would mean an extra
:50:22. > :50:30.?23 34 in Cambridgeshire and ?59.69 in Milton Keynes.
:50:31. > :50:32.Most other places are somewhere in between.
:50:33. > :50:35.And I think at this point in time I am not
:50:36. > :50:39.I am not prepared to close libraries and I'm
:50:40. > :50:40.not prepared to reduce the
:50:41. > :50:45.maintenance on highways, for example.
:50:46. > :50:48.What I want to do is get Government to recognise this is a
:50:49. > :50:54.serious issue and it needs to be dealt with.
:50:55. > :50:59.So councils can put up their budget by 3% a cover social
:51:00. > :51:07.care and an extra 2% if they want to raise extra money.
:51:08. > :51:11.their budget this week and now let's talk to their leader, Colin
:51:12. > :51:15.You only put yours up by 3% to cover social care.
:51:16. > :51:17.Why did you not go further and raise more money?
:51:18. > :51:19.We came in in 2005 after the Liberals
:51:20. > :51:23.and Labour had put the council tax up by 13% and we said then that we
:51:24. > :51:25.wanted to get control of finances and make it
:51:26. > :51:26.run more efficiently and
:51:27. > :51:32.in 2010 we delivered seven years of 0% which
:51:33. > :51:35.got elected in 2013 and that we would do
:51:36. > :51:41.Everybody is strapped for cash and you are going to cut
:51:42. > :51:46.We are trying to do things differently.
:51:47. > :51:48.We have done things with libraries where we no
:51:49. > :51:51.There is an industrial province society which
:51:52. > :51:55.So all the time what we're trying to do is find new ways
:51:56. > :51:59.to do things so we do not cut the front line but we do cut.
:52:00. > :52:02.There was talk of a ?30 million cut.
:52:03. > :52:07.Basically, what we said is we have identified we need to make ?30
:52:08. > :52:10.million worth of savings next year so we are going through every single
:52:11. > :52:18.Basically, what we're trying to do is be more efficient in back office,
:52:19. > :52:21.share services with other councils and also saying to our providers and
:52:22. > :52:24.you will have to sharpen your pencils, you will have to be more
:52:25. > :52:27.leaner and how you operate and how we go about our business.
:52:28. > :52:30.More efficient in the back office, leaner, does that mean job losses?
:52:31. > :52:34.How do you think that is going to go down with the people
:52:35. > :52:38.We are the holders of the public purse and what we are
:52:39. > :52:41.saying is we believe it is incredibly important we are as
:52:42. > :52:47.We recognise in council tax it is people's hard earned money
:52:48. > :52:51.and so we are very focused on making sure we
:52:52. > :53:01.are as efficient as possible, yet at the same time what we have
:53:02. > :53:03.announced is we will pay our residential care
:53:04. > :53:06.providers 20% more on the base rate and our domiciliary care providers
:53:07. > :53:09.So the 3% you are allowed to increase by to
:53:10. > :53:12.cover social care, will that cover all of the problems you have?
:53:13. > :53:15.Basically, that will just about pay for the national living wage.
:53:16. > :53:17.All of us agree the national living wage is
:53:18. > :53:20.an important thing for care workers and the lowest paid so what we have
:53:21. > :53:23.said to the people of Suffolk is we want to apply that
:53:24. > :53:26.and the bulk of that will go to front line care
:53:27. > :53:29.workers and front line lowest paid workers so they get the national
:53:30. > :53:32.Do you think the Government is listening when the
:53:33. > :53:34.councils say they have a problem and social care?
:53:35. > :53:40.You had David Finch on earlier and David and I sit with the
:53:41. > :53:42.county council network and we both lobby very hard.
:53:43. > :53:47.There is a conversation to be had about the
:53:48. > :53:51.amount of money that physically flows, and the CCN is talking with
:53:52. > :53:54.Government and saying when you look at an ageing population and rural
:53:55. > :53:57.communities we need to see more funding for those.
:53:58. > :53:59.It is about being more efficient and being firm with
:54:00. > :54:01.our providers as to what we want and do not
:54:02. > :54:03.want but there has to be a
:54:04. > :54:08.Yet you could have put it up by another 2%.
:54:09. > :54:10.It certainly is but we made a pledge.
:54:11. > :54:15.Shannon Taylor, you understand these problems, is 3%
:54:16. > :54:22.enough to cover any of the shortages we have?
:54:23. > :54:29.There is a very serious shortage in social care funding and
:54:30. > :54:32.we saw the issue with Surrey where David decided to announce he was
:54:33. > :54:38.My view is David played some poker with the
:54:39. > :54:41.Government and won that game of poker, but we should not be playing
:54:42. > :54:47.And keeping on slicing little bits of funding from local Government's
:54:48. > :54:49.core funding to fund social care is not going to work.
:54:50. > :54:54.They are calling this a sweetheart deal in Surrey.
:54:55. > :55:01.Do you know anybody else offered this kind of deal?
:55:02. > :55:04.I do not know anybody else, perhaps David might
:55:05. > :55:07.We certainly have not had one in Hertfordshire.
:55:08. > :55:09.But we are certainly very keen to learn the details of
:55:10. > :55:13.The important thing now is the details are published.
:55:14. > :55:16.The Government is saying there is no deal and I am very suspicious about
:55:17. > :55:19.that and think we need to see what has been agreed for Surrey and
:55:20. > :55:22.overall the Local Government Association has been campaigning for
:55:23. > :55:25.a long time to say to Government, this is not the way to do business
:55:26. > :55:28.and we need to make sure there is adequate funding for social care.
:55:29. > :55:32.We think there are still savings in the
:55:33. > :55:34.system and that is the integration of health and social care.
:55:35. > :55:37.I know there has been issues over that, but
:55:38. > :55:43.prevention will save us money in the longer term and some of the
:55:44. > :55:45.initiatives we have seen from local Government that help integrate
:55:46. > :55:49.health and social care are making a real difference.
:55:50. > :55:51.Stewart Jackson, Government has not perhaps come out
:55:52. > :55:53.of this as well as it might have done.
:55:54. > :55:56.I do not know the full details of the so-called text gate.
:55:57. > :55:58.If there has been a sweetheart deal...
:55:59. > :56:07.The moral of the story, make sure you
:56:08. > :56:09.are sending a text to the right nick.
:56:10. > :56:13.On a serious point there have been significant progress in things
:56:14. > :56:16.like the better care fund and we are seeing some local
:56:17. > :56:18.authorities getting better integration between
:56:19. > :56:22.primary and acute care and adult social care but that is, as I keep
:56:23. > :56:24.saying, a demographic time bomb and we need to move on from just
:56:25. > :56:26.having one of social care precept into a
:56:27. > :56:30.more sustainable funding formula and I think the Chancellor
:56:31. > :56:40.Is it a way for a Government to behave, where,
:56:41. > :56:43.rather than letting a council have a referendum in case it goes
:56:44. > :56:44.against the way they wanted to be, but
:56:45. > :56:46.actually get some kind of sweetheart deal?
:56:47. > :56:49.That is not the way to run a Government, is it?
:56:50. > :56:51.There is always the issue around localism, because
:56:52. > :56:54.of the local authority has different demographic factors, different
:56:55. > :56:57.budget issues, older people, younger people.
:56:58. > :56:59.So they will always be council leaders saying we are a
:57:00. > :57:07.There is no case for making Sunday special case.
:57:08. > :57:14.One could argue for many years under Labour northern and Midland
:57:15. > :57:19.authorities were made special cases. What do you think of them weren't
:57:20. > :57:25.doing business this way? The most important thing is how we integrate
:57:26. > :57:30.health and social care. That is a very political answer. On the
:57:31. > :57:35.ground, the actual answer is there a need to be more money, closer
:57:36. > :57:45.integration, health and social care must address this time bomb. We have
:57:46. > :57:50.an ageing population and it changes how you must deliver health is the
:57:51. > :57:51.system must change and those are far more fundamental argument that
:57:52. > :57:53.issues about Surrey and individual issues about Surrey and individual
:57:54. > :57:55.deals. Thank you being with us. Note for our round-up of the political
:57:56. > :57:59.week in 60 seconds. Genome research is under
:58:00. > :58:07.threat because of Brexit, A world-renowned institute told this
:58:08. > :58:09.science and technology select
:58:10. > :58:10.committee this week. There is concern over the status
:58:11. > :58:12.of their EU workers. On the wider campus you are probably
:58:13. > :58:18.touching 40% Of staff from the EU and the no longer feel welcome
:58:19. > :58:21.and that is a threat. Free range egg producers
:58:22. > :58:24.in Norfolk are worried they will lose their free
:58:25. > :58:32.range status within weeks flu mean flocks must
:58:33. > :58:36.be kept indoors. Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has
:58:37. > :58:39.failed to give guarantees about the future of the
:58:40. > :58:41.Cambridgeshire minor injuries unit at Ealing after it was
:58:42. > :58:45.raised in the house. Does the secretary of state agree
:58:46. > :58:48.with me that money spent in the Ealing Princess of Wales minor
:58:49. > :58:50.injuries unit is money extremely And bad news for Colchester
:58:51. > :58:55.MP Will Quince w ho And bad news for Colchester
:58:56. > :58:58.MP Will Quince who failed to be picked to compete in
:58:59. > :59:28.Britain's Got Talent, despite this While he was singing what did you
:59:29. > :59:35.say? Shocking results. The science question, whether places
:59:36. > :59:43.are here can continue to work well with Europe. What is your take? I
:59:44. > :59:47.think collaboration is worldwide. Petition entities and academic
:59:48. > :59:53.institutions are collaborating on things like Iran is must, Horizon
:59:54. > :00:04.2020 and other scientific projects and it will continue -- things like
:00:05. > :00:09.Erasmus. But things other countries do not want to be part of us if we
:00:10. > :00:14.are not part of Europe. People will want to come here because of our
:00:15. > :00:22.time zone, stability, labour market flexibility. And they will be
:00:23. > :00:31.allowed to come? Of course. Sought to assure my colleagues part of the
:00:32. > :00:36.European Space Agency project, who have just opened their fantastic
:00:37. > :00:42.Mars rover visitor Centre, they have concerned when they put in bids for
:00:43. > :00:46.European Space Agency funding that is the uncertainty around Brexit. We
:00:47. > :00:52.have world beating pharmaceuticals in Stevenage. How would you reassure
:00:53. > :00:59.them that everything will be rosy for them? We are not in Leave Remain
:01:00. > :01:04.any more, we are all pulling in the same direction. There
:01:05. > :01:15.After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,
:01:16. > :01:18.MPs are having a little break this week as we head into
:01:19. > :01:22.But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -
:01:23. > :01:29.let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.
:01:30. > :01:39.There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The
:01:40. > :01:42.budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this
:01:43. > :01:56.Government because it moves to the autumn.
:01:57. > :02:03.That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably
:02:04. > :02:08.about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,
:02:09. > :02:16.then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next
:02:17. > :02:19.President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour
:02:20. > :02:23.leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of
:02:24. > :02:29.March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew
:02:30. > :02:33.Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to
:02:34. > :02:39.block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised
:02:40. > :02:44.if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination
:02:45. > :02:49.to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think
:02:50. > :02:53.one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor
:02:54. > :02:58.the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you
:02:59. > :03:01.think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it
:03:02. > :03:04.would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name
:03:05. > :03:10.the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a
:03:11. > :03:14.good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics
:03:15. > :03:17.for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in
:03:18. > :03:22.our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can
:03:23. > :03:26.find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to
:03:27. > :03:30.time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change
:03:31. > :03:36.politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger
:03:37. > :03:40.than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal
:03:41. > :03:45.Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would
:03:46. > :03:50.suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does
:03:51. > :03:55.get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay
:03:56. > :03:58.that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have
:03:59. > :04:05.another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary
:04:06. > :04:12.of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the
:04:13. > :04:16.table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have
:04:17. > :04:20.done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew
:04:21. > :04:26.Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back
:04:27. > :04:32.but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal
:04:33. > :04:37.Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not
:04:38. > :04:41.the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the
:04:42. > :04:45.European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know
:04:46. > :04:48.because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch
:04:49. > :04:52.taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at
:04:53. > :04:59.the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a
:05:00. > :05:07.play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first
:05:08. > :05:11.in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish
:05:12. > :05:16.Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that
:05:17. > :05:21.will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.
:05:22. > :05:25.You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a
:05:26. > :05:29.national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing
:05:30. > :05:37.France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A
:05:38. > :05:42.reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in
:05:43. > :05:48.the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected
:05:49. > :05:54.elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal
:05:55. > :06:02.views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them
:06:03. > :06:09.to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le
:06:10. > :06:14.Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the
:06:15. > :06:21.future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are
:06:22. > :06:25.were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some
:06:26. > :06:29.problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in
:06:30. > :06:33.the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a
:06:34. > :06:40.number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of
:06:41. > :06:48.people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She
:06:49. > :06:54.thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't
:06:55. > :06:59.got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to
:07:00. > :07:03.play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,
:07:04. > :07:09.not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how
:07:10. > :07:22.much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting
:07:23. > :07:25.on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from
:07:26. > :07:29.European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see
:07:30. > :07:34.what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do
:07:35. > :07:38.know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get
:07:39. > :07:43.through to the second round. He could come firth but the
:07:44. > :07:47.centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would
:07:48. > :07:52.say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to
:07:53. > :07:56.saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le
:07:57. > :08:02.Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,
:08:03. > :08:08.it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as
:08:09. > :08:11.in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had
:08:12. > :08:15.got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has
:08:16. > :08:21.transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the
:08:22. > :08:26.French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April
:08:27. > :08:31.23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he
:08:32. > :08:32.was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,
:08:33. > :08:38.this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership
:08:39. > :08:41.election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,
:08:42. > :08:45.but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this
:08:46. > :08:47.parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear
:08:48. > :09:03.message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you
:09:04. > :09:09.are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media
:09:10. > :09:12.performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,
:09:13. > :09:17.things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win
:09:18. > :09:22.2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their
:09:23. > :09:27.offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking
:09:28. > :09:32.well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might
:09:33. > :09:40.like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going
:09:41. > :09:47.to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he
:09:48. > :09:53.the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership
:09:54. > :09:58.is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide
:09:59. > :10:03.to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is
:10:04. > :10:07.not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be
:10:08. > :10:12.the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas
:10:13. > :10:18.would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if
:10:19. > :10:23.we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general
:10:24. > :10:27.election, which means you have another itration of this, another
:10:28. > :10:34.five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour
:10:35. > :10:39.moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general
:10:40. > :10:43.election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for
:10:44. > :10:48.the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn
:10:49. > :10:52.going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment
:10:53. > :10:58.being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated
:10:59. > :11:03.the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.
:11:04. > :11:09.Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had
:11:10. > :11:13.their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest
:11:14. > :11:18.they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any
:11:19. > :11:25.indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is
:11:26. > :11:30.now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what
:11:31. > :11:35.he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another
:11:36. > :11:41.attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question
:11:42. > :11:47.enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a
:11:48. > :11:53.daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about
:11:54. > :11:56.winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of
:11:57. > :12:00.two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself
:12:01. > :12:07.will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half
:12:08. > :12:12.hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some
:12:13. > :12:18.people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another
:12:19. > :12:24.three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it
:12:25. > :12:28.lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be
:12:29. > :12:33.under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this
:12:34. > :12:38.level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the
:12:39. > :12:42.idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the
:12:43. > :12:47.people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and
:12:48. > :12:52.they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most
:12:53. > :12:56.of people were let alone most of the public.
:12:57. > :13:03.Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership
:13:04. > :13:07.potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the
:13:08. > :13:08.Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That
:13:09. > :13:12.is it. Now, there's no Daily
:13:13. > :13:14.or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back
:13:15. > :13:19.on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics
:13:20. > :13:23.on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:24. > :13:25.it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from
:13:26. > :14:07.a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -
:14:08. > :14:13.they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover
:14:14. > :14:18.to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got
:14:19. > :14:49.your bamboo sticks? If you just paint
:14:50. > :14:51.what you want to paint, I've turned around,
:14:52. > :14:57.my painting washes away. ..and take on
:14:58. > :15:02.The Big Painting Challenge. Remember, you're not painting
:15:03. > :15:05.a pond.