26/02/2017

:00:39. > :00:44.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:45. > :00:45.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:46. > :00:47.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:48. > :00:49.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:50. > :00:50.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:51. > :00:53.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:54. > :00:56.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:57. > :01:06.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:01:07. > :01:11.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:12. > :01:14.And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact

:01:15. > :01:22.here in the east, the colour of but after riots in Stockholm this

:01:23. > :01:24.here in the east, the colour of money. Businesses helped by funding

:01:25. > :01:28.from the EU. In London, will the rise in council

:01:29. > :01:29.tax in all but four local authorities be enough to alleviate

:01:30. > :01:36.the crisis in social care? And joining me for all of that,

:01:37. > :01:39.three journalists who I'm pleased to say have so far not been banned

:01:40. > :01:47.from the White House. I've tried banning them

:01:48. > :01:51.from this show repeatedly, but somehow they just keep getting

:01:52. > :02:02.past BBC security - it's Sam Coates, We have had two crucial

:02:03. > :02:06.by-elections, the results last Thursday night. It's now Sunday

:02:07. > :02:10.morning, where do they believe British politics? I think it leaves

:02:11. > :02:14.British politics looking as if it may go ahead without Ukip is a

:02:15. > :02:19.strong and robust force. It is difficult to see from where we are

:02:20. > :02:25.now how Ukip rebuilds into a credible vote winning operation. I

:02:26. > :02:30.think it looks unprofessional, the campaign they fought in Stoke was

:02:31. > :02:34.clearly winnable because the margin with which Labour held onto that

:02:35. > :02:37.seat was not an impressive one but they put forward arguably the wrong

:02:38. > :02:42.candidate, it was messy and it's hard to see where they go from here,

:02:43. > :02:47.particularly with the money problems they have and even Nigel Farage

:02:48. > :02:54.saying he's fed up of the party. If Isabel is right, if Ukip is no

:02:55. > :02:59.longer a major factor, you look at the state of Labour and the Lib Dems

:03:00. > :03:02.coming from a long way behind despite their local government

:03:03. > :03:08.by-election successes, Tories never more dominant. I think Theresa May

:03:09. > :03:14.is in a fascinating situation. She's the most powerful Prime Minister of

:03:15. > :03:18.modern times for now because she faces no confident, formidable

:03:19. > :03:22.opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher who in the 1980s, although she won

:03:23. > :03:29.landslides in the end, often looked like she was in trouble. She was

:03:30. > :03:35.inferred quite often in the build-up to the election. David Owen, Roy

:03:36. > :03:39.Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite often she was worried. At the moment

:03:40. > :03:44.Theresa May faces no formidable UK opposition. However, she is both

:03:45. > :03:48.strong and fragile because her agenda is Brexit, which I still

:03:49. > :03:52.think many have not got to grips with in terms of how complex and

:03:53. > :03:59.training and difficult it will be for her. Thatcher faced no

:04:00. > :04:04.equivalent to Brexit so she is both strong, formidably strong because of

:04:05. > :04:08.the wider UK political context, and very fragile. It is just when you

:04:09. > :04:13.think you have never been more dominant you are actually at the

:04:14. > :04:17.most dangerous, what can possibly go wrong? I think that the money of her

:04:18. > :04:21.MPs they haven't begun to think through the practicalities of Brexit

:04:22. > :04:25.and she does have a working majority of about 17 in the House of Commons

:04:26. > :04:30.so at any point she could be put under pressure from really

:04:31. > :04:34.opposition these days is done by the two wins inside the Conservative

:04:35. > :04:39.Party, either the 15 Europhiles or the bigger group of about 60

:04:40. > :04:42.Brexiteers who have continued to operate as a united and disciplined

:04:43. > :04:47.force within the Conservative Party to get their agenda on the table.

:04:48. > :04:51.Either of those wings could be disappointed at any point in the

:04:52. > :04:54.next three and a half years and that would put her under pressure. I

:04:55. > :05:01.wouldn't completely rule out Ukip coming back. The reason Ukip lost in

:05:02. > :05:04.Stoke I think it's because at the moment Theresa May is delivering

:05:05. > :05:11.pretty much everything Ukip figures might want to see. We might find the

:05:12. > :05:14.phrase Brexit means Brexit quite anodyne but I think she is

:05:15. > :05:19.convincing people she will press ahead with their agenda and deliver

:05:20. > :05:24.the leave vote that people buy a slim majority voted for. Should that

:05:25. > :05:27.change, should there be talk of transition periods, shut the

:05:28. > :05:32.migration settlement not make people happy, then I think Ukip risks

:05:33. > :05:36.charging back up the centre ground and causing more problems in future.

:05:37. > :05:42.That could be a two year gap in which Ukip would have to survive. As

:05:43. > :05:43.I said, Ukip is on our agenda for today.

:05:44. > :05:45.Thursday was a big night for political obsessives

:05:46. > :05:50.like us, with not one but two significant by-elections,

:05:51. > :05:57.Ellie braved the wind and rain to bring you this report.

:05:58. > :06:03.The clouds had gathered, the winds blew at gale force.

:06:04. > :06:07.Was a change in the air, or just a weather system called Doris?

:06:08. > :06:10.Voters in Stoke-on-Trent were about to find out.

:06:11. > :06:14.It's here, a sports hall on a Thursday night

:06:15. > :06:20.that the country's media reckon is the true eye of the storm.

:06:21. > :06:22.Would Labour suffer a lightning strike to its very heart,

:06:23. > :06:25.or would the Ukip threat proved to be a damp squib?

:06:26. > :06:28.Everybody seems to think the result in Stoke-on-Trent would be close,

:06:29. > :06:31.just as they did 150-odd miles away in Copeland, where the Tories

:06:32. > :06:36.are counting on stealing another Labour heartland seat.

:06:37. > :06:44.Areas of high pressure in both places, and some strange sights.

:06:45. > :06:46.We knew this wasn't a normal by-election, and to prove it

:06:47. > :06:48.there is the rapper, Professor Green.

:06:49. > :06:51.Chart-toppers aside, winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade

:06:52. > :06:54.was announced first, where everyone was so excited

:06:55. > :06:58.the candidates didn't even make it onto the stage for the result.

:06:59. > :07:01.And I do hereby declare that the said Gareth Snell

:07:02. > :07:09.Nigel Farage has said that victory here in Stoke-on-Trent

:07:10. > :07:16.But Ukip's newish leader played down the defeat,

:07:17. > :07:19.insisting his party's time would come.

:07:20. > :07:25.Are you going to stand again as an MP or has this

:07:26. > :07:28.No doubt I will stand again, don't worry about that.

:07:29. > :07:37.The politics of hope beat the politics of fear.

:07:38. > :07:40.I think Ukip are the ones this weekend who have got

:07:41. > :07:45.But a few minutes later, it turned out Labour had

:07:46. > :07:49.Harrison, Trudy Lynn, the Conservative Party

:07:50. > :08:00.That was more than 2,000 votes ahead of Labour.

:08:01. > :08:05.What has happened here tonight is a truly historic event.

:08:06. > :08:06.Labour were disappointed, but determined to be optimistic

:08:07. > :08:18.At a point when we're 15 to 18 points behind in the polls...

:08:19. > :08:22.The Conservatives within 2000 votes I think is an incredible

:08:23. > :08:27.The morning after the night before, the losing parties

:08:28. > :08:31.were licking their wounds and their lips over breakfast.

:08:32. > :08:34.For years and years, Ukip was Nigel Farage,

:08:35. > :08:41.That has now changed, that era has gone.

:08:42. > :08:43.It's a new era, it is a second age for us.

:08:44. > :08:48.So that needs to be more fully embedded,

:08:49. > :08:51.it needs to be more defined, you know, and that will

:08:52. > :09:00.We have to continue to improve in seats where we have stood.

:09:01. > :09:02.As we have done here, we've improved on our 2015 result,

:09:03. > :09:05.that's what important, is that we are taking steps

:09:06. > :09:10.Can I be the first to come here today to congratulate

:09:11. > :09:13.you on being elected the new MP for Stoke on Trent Central.

:09:14. > :09:16.Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived in Stoke to welcome his newest MP.

:09:17. > :09:21.Not sure he's going to Copeland later though.

:09:22. > :09:24.Earlier in the day, the Labour leader had made clear he'd

:09:25. > :09:26.considered and discounted some theories about the party's

:09:27. > :09:32.Since you found out that you'd lost a seat to a governing

:09:33. > :09:36.party for the first time since the Falklands War,

:09:37. > :09:39.have you at any point this morning looked in the mirror and asked

:09:40. > :09:44.yourself this question - could the problem actually be me?

:09:45. > :09:51.In the end it was the Conservatives who came out on top.

:09:52. > :09:54.No governing party has made a gain at a by-election

:09:55. > :10:00.With the self-styled people's army of Ukip halted in Stoke,

:10:01. > :10:04.and Labour's wash-out here in Copeland...

:10:05. > :10:16.There's little chance of rain on Theresa May's parade.

:10:17. > :10:19.In the wake of that loss in Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party

:10:20. > :10:21.has been meeting for its spring conference in the

:10:22. > :10:26.Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson warned delegates that unless Labour

:10:27. > :10:28.took the by-election defeat seriously, the party's devastation

:10:29. > :10:31.in Scotland could be repeated south of the border.

:10:32. > :10:33.Well, I'm joined now by the leader of Scottish Labour,

:10:34. > :10:49.Even after your party had lost Copeland to the Tories and with

:10:50. > :10:53.Labour now trailing 16 points in the UK polls, you claim to have every

:10:54. > :10:56.faith that Jeremy Corbyn would absolutely win the general election.

:10:57. > :11:04.What evidence can you bring to support that? There is no doubt the

:11:05. > :11:08.result in Copeland was disappointing for the Labour Party and I think

:11:09. > :11:11.it's a collective feeling for everyone within the Labour Party and

:11:12. > :11:14.I want to do what I can to turn around the fortunes of our party.

:11:15. > :11:21.That's what I've committed to do while I have been the Scottish

:11:22. > :11:25.Labour leader. This two years ago we were down the mines so to speak in

:11:26. > :11:28.terms of losing the faith of working class communities across the

:11:29. > :11:33.country, but we listened very hard to the message voters are sending

:11:34. > :11:36.and responded to it. That's what I'm committed to doing in Scotland and

:11:37. > :11:44.that's what Jeremy Corbyn is committed to doing UK wide. The

:11:45. > :11:47.latest polls put Labour at 14% in Scotland, the Tories at ten points

:11:48. > :11:53.ahead of you in Scotland, even Theresa May is more popular than

:11:54. > :11:58.Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will try again - why are you so sure

:11:59. > :12:04.Jeremy Corbyn could win a general election? What I said when you are

:12:05. > :12:08.talking about Scotland is that I'm the leader of the Scottish Labour

:12:09. > :12:11.Party and I take responsibility for our policies here. Voters said very

:12:12. > :12:14.clearly after the Scottish Parliament election that they didn't

:12:15. > :12:18.have a clear enough sense of what we stood for so I have been advocating

:12:19. > :12:22.a very strong anti-austerity platform, coming up with ideas of

:12:23. > :12:25.how we can oppose the cuts and invest in our future. That is

:12:26. > :12:29.something Jeremy Corbyn also supports but I've also made it clear

:12:30. > :12:36.this weekend that we are opposed to a second independence referendum. I

:12:37. > :12:39.want to bring Scotland back together by focusing on the future and that's

:12:40. > :12:45.why I have been speaking about the federal solution for the UK. I know

:12:46. > :12:49.that Jeremy Corbyn shares that ambition because he is backing the

:12:50. > :12:55.plans for a people's Constitutional Convention. Yes, these are difficult

:12:56. > :12:59.times for the Scottish Labour Party and UK family, but I have a plan in

:13:00. > :13:06.place to turn things around. It will take time though. I'm still not sure

:13:07. > :13:11.why you are so sure the Labour party can win but let me come onto your

:13:12. > :13:16.plan. You want a UK wide Constitutional Convention and that

:13:17. > :13:21.lead to a new Federalist settlement. Is it the policy of the Labour

:13:22. > :13:28.Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to carve England into federal regions?

:13:29. > :13:32.What we support at a UK wide level is the people's constitutional

:13:33. > :13:35.convention. I have been careful to prescribe what I think is in the

:13:36. > :13:38.best interests of Scotland but not to dictate to other parts of the UK

:13:39. > :13:44.what is good for them, that's the point of the people's constitutional

:13:45. > :13:48.convention. You heard Tom Watson say there has to be a UK wide

:13:49. > :13:52.conversation about power, who has it and how it is exercised across

:13:53. > :13:56.England. England hasn't been part of this devolution story over the last

:13:57. > :14:02.20 years, it is something that happened between Scotland and London

:14:03. > :14:05.or Wales and London. No wonder people in England feel

:14:06. > :14:11.disenfranchised from that. What evidence can you bring to show there

:14:12. > :14:15.is any appetite in England for an English federal solution to England,

:14:16. > :14:19.to carve England into federal regions? Have you spoken to John

:14:20. > :14:23.Prescott about this? He might tell you some of the difficulties.

:14:24. > :14:29.There's not even a debate about that here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy.

:14:30. > :14:33.I speak to John Prescott regularly. What there is a debate about is the

:14:34. > :14:37.idea the world is changing so fast that globalisation is taking jobs

:14:38. > :14:41.away from communities in the north-east, that many working class

:14:42. > :14:44.communities feel left behind, that Westminster feels very far away and

:14:45. > :14:49.the politicians within it feel remote in part of the establishment.

:14:50. > :14:52.People are fed up with power being exercised somewhere else, that's

:14:53. > :14:56.where I think federalism comes in because it's about bringing power

:14:57. > :15:05.closer to people and in many ways it's forced on us because of Brexit.

:15:06. > :15:07.We know the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union so we

:15:08. > :15:10.have to talk about the repatriation of those powers from Brussels to

:15:11. > :15:13.Britain. I want many of those powers to go to the Scottish parliament but

:15:14. > :15:16.where should they go in the English context? It is not as things

:15:17. > :15:19.currently stand the policy of the English Labour Party to carve

:15:20. > :15:24.England into federal regions, correct?

:15:25. > :15:29.It is absolutely the policy of the UK Labour Party to support the

:15:30. > :15:36.people's Constitutional convention to examining these questions. I

:15:37. > :15:39.think it is really important. You're promising the Scottish people a

:15:40. > :15:44.federal solution, and you have not even squared your own party for a

:15:45. > :15:49.federal solution in England. That is not true. The UK Labour Party is

:15:50. > :15:52.united on this. I am going to Cardiff next month to meet with

:15:53. > :15:57.Carwyn Jones and various leaders. United on a federal solution? You

:15:58. > :16:00.know as well as I know it is not united on a federal solution. We

:16:01. > :16:03.will have a conversation about power in this country. It is not united on

:16:04. > :16:29.that issue? This is the direction of

:16:30. > :16:32.travel. It is what you heard yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom

:16:33. > :16:34.Watson, when you hear from people like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle

:16:35. > :16:36.City Council and Labour's Local Government Association. There is an

:16:37. > :16:38.appetite for talking about power. Talking is one thing. We need to

:16:39. > :16:41.have this conversation across the whole of the United Kingdom, to have

:16:42. > :16:43.a reformed United Kingdom. It is a conversation you're offering

:16:44. > :16:46.Scotland, not the policy. Let's come onto the labour made of London. He

:16:47. > :16:48.was in power for your conference. He wrote in the record yesterday, there

:16:49. > :16:50.is no difference between Scottish nationalism and racism. Would you

:16:51. > :16:54.like this opportunity to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I

:16:55. > :16:59.think that Sadiq Khan was very clear yesterday that he was not accusing

:17:00. > :17:04.the SNP of racism. What he was saying clearly is that nationalism

:17:05. > :17:08.by its very nature divides people and communities. That is what I said

:17:09. > :17:13.in my speech yesterday. I am fed up living in a divided and fractured

:17:14. > :17:19.country and society. Our politics is forcing is constantly to pick sides,

:17:20. > :17:23.whether you're a no, leave a remain, it brings out the worst in our

:17:24. > :17:26.politicians and politics. All the consensus we find in the grey areas

:17:27. > :17:29.is lost. That is why am standing under a banner that together we are

:17:30. > :17:47.stronger. We have to come up with ideas and focus on the future. That

:17:48. > :17:49.is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He said quite clearly in the Daily

:17:50. > :17:51.Record yesterday, and that the last minute he adapted his speech to your

:17:52. > :17:54.conference yesterday, to try and reduce the impact, that there was no

:17:55. > :17:56.difference between Scottish nationalism and racism. Your

:17:57. > :18:00.colleague, and Sarwar, said that even after he had tried to introduce

:18:01. > :18:07.the caveats, all forms of nationalism rely on creating eyes

:18:08. > :18:12.and them. Let's call it for what it is. So you are implying that the

:18:13. > :18:17.Scottish Nationalists are racist. Would you care to distance yourself

:18:18. > :18:21.from that absurd claim? I utterly refute that that is what Sadiq Khan

:18:22. > :18:28.said. I would never suggest that the SNP are an inherently racist party.

:18:29. > :18:33.That does is a disservice. He did not see it. What he did say,

:18:34. > :18:38.however, is that nationalism is divisive. You know that better than

:18:39. > :18:42.anyone. I see your Twitter account. Regularly your attack for the job

:18:43. > :18:46.you do as a journalist. Politics in Scotland is divided on. I do not

:18:47. > :18:51.want to revisit that independence question again for that reason. As

:18:52. > :18:56.leader of the Labour Party, I want to bring our country back together,

:18:57. > :19:00.appeal to people who voted yes and no. That banner, together we are

:19:01. > :19:05.stronger, that is where the answers lie in defaulters can be found. If

:19:06. > :19:09.in response to the Mayor of London, your colleague says, let's call it

:19:10. > :19:17.out for what it is, what is he referring to if he is not implying

:19:18. > :19:22.that national symbol is racist? -- and that nationalism is racist? He

:19:23. > :19:26.is saying that it leads to divisive politics. The Labour Party has

:19:27. > :19:29.always advocated that together we are stronger. Saying something is

:19:30. > :19:34.divisive is very different from saying something is racist. That is

:19:35. > :19:39.what the Mayor of London said. That is what your colleague was referring

:19:40. > :19:45.to. He did not. You would really struggle to quote that from the

:19:46. > :19:50.Mayor of London. He talked about being divided by race. What does

:19:51. > :19:55.that mean? I think he was very clear that he was talking about divided

:19:56. > :19:59.politics. There is an appetite the length and breadth of the country to

:20:00. > :20:04.end that divisive politics. That is what I stand for, focusing on the

:20:05. > :20:06.future, bringing people back together, concentrating on what the

:20:07. > :20:10.economy might look like in 20 years' time in coming up with ideas to

:20:11. > :20:12.tackle it today. Thank you for joining us.

:20:13. > :20:14.Thursday's win for Labour in Stoke-on-Trent Central

:20:15. > :20:16.gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn, but for Ukip leader and defeated

:20:17. > :20:19.Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall there were no consolation prizes.

:20:20. > :20:21.I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's principal political

:20:22. > :20:31.Welcome to the programme. Good morning. How long will Paul Nuttall

:20:32. > :20:36.survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks, months? You are in danger of not

:20:37. > :20:41.seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip was formed in 1993 with the express

:20:42. > :20:45.purpose, much mocked, of getting Britain out of the European Union.

:20:46. > :20:49.Under the brilliant leadership of Nigel Farage, we were crucial in

:20:50. > :20:56.forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to make a referendum promise he did not

:20:57. > :20:58.want to give. With our friends in Fort leave and other organisations.

:20:59. > :21:06.Mac we know that. Get to the answer. We helped to win that referendum.

:21:07. > :21:10.The iteration of Ukip at the moment that we're in, the primary purpose,

:21:11. > :21:16.we are the guard dog of Brexit. Viewed through that prism, the Stoke

:21:17. > :21:20.by-election was a brilliant success. A brilliant success? We had the Tory

:21:21. > :21:25.candidate that had pumped out publicity for Remain, for Cameron

:21:26. > :21:29.Bradley, preaching the gospel of Brexit. We had a Labour candidate

:21:30. > :21:34.and we know what he really felt about Brexit, preaching the Gospel

:21:35. > :21:48.according to Brexit. You lost. Well the by-election was going on, we had

:21:49. > :21:52.the Labour Party in the House of Commons pass the idea of trickling

:21:53. > :21:54.Article 50 by a landslide. Are passionate thing, the thing that

:21:55. > :21:56.35,000 Ukip members care about the most, it is an extraordinary

:21:57. > :21:59.achievement. I am very proud. What would you have described as victory

:22:00. > :22:01.as? If we could have got Paul Nuttall into the House of Commons,

:22:02. > :22:07.that would have been a fantastic cherry on the top. Losing was an

:22:08. > :22:11.extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip supporters the Stoke was winnable,

:22:12. > :22:17.but Paul Nuttall's campaign was marred by controversy, Tory voters

:22:18. > :22:25.refuse to vote tactically for Ukip to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr

:22:26. > :22:30.Nuttall is to blame for not winning what was a winnable seat? I do not

:22:31. > :22:33.see that at all. This is counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn

:22:34. > :22:39.did do one thing that made it more difficult for us to win. Fantasy.

:22:40. > :22:45.That was to take Labour into a Brexit position formerly. Just over

:22:46. > :22:48.50 Labour MPs had voted against triggering Article 50. In political

:22:49. > :22:53.terms, we have intimidated the Labour Party into backing Brexit.

:22:54. > :23:07.How much good is it doing you? It comes to the heart

:23:08. > :23:11.of the problem your party faces. You're struggling to win Tory

:23:12. > :23:13.Eurosceptic voters. For the moment, they seem happy with Theresa May.

:23:14. > :23:15.Stoke shows you're not winning Labour Brexit voters either. If you

:23:16. > :23:17.cannot get the solution Tolisso labour, where does your Broad come

:23:18. > :23:20.from? In terms of the by-election, it came very early for Paul. I'm

:23:21. > :23:24.talking about the future. We have a future agenda, and ideological

:23:25. > :23:30.argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, which is wedded to the notion

:23:31. > :23:33.of global citizenship and does not recognise the nation state. We know

:23:34. > :23:38.he spent Christmas sitting around campfires with Mexican Marxist

:23:39. > :23:40.dreaming of global government. We believe in the nation state. We

:23:41. > :23:47.believe that the patriotic working class vote will be receptive to

:23:48. > :23:51.that. Your Broad went down by 9% in Cortland. In Copeland we were

:23:52. > :23:58.squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable to squeeze the Tories, who are on a

:23:59. > :24:02.high. Our agenda is that social solidarity is important but we

:24:03. > :24:06.arrange it in this country by nation and community. We want an

:24:07. > :24:11.immigration system that is not only reducing... We know what you want. I

:24:12. > :24:15.do not think people do. You had a whole by-election to tell people and

:24:16. > :24:20.they did not vote for you and. When Nigel Farage said it was fundamental

:24:21. > :24:25.that you were winner in Stoke, he was wrong? Nigel chooses his own

:24:26. > :24:32.words. I would not rewrite them. It would be a massive advantage to Ukip

:24:33. > :24:34.to have a leader in the House of Commons in time to reply to the

:24:35. > :24:37.budget, Prime Minister's questions and all of that. But we have taken

:24:38. > :24:42.the strategic view that we will fight the Labour Party for the

:24:43. > :24:46.working class vote. It is also true that the Conservatives will make a

:24:47. > :24:50.pitch for the working class vote might as well. All three parties

:24:51. > :24:55.have certain advantages and disadvantages. As part of that page,

:24:56. > :24:59.Nigel Farage said that your leader, Paul Nuttall, should have taken a

:25:00. > :25:04.clear, by which I assume he meant tough, line on immigration. Do you

:25:05. > :25:09.agree? He took a tough line on immigration. He developed that idea

:25:10. > :25:13.at our party conference in the spring. Nigel Farage did not think

:25:14. > :25:17.so? Nigel Farage made his speech before Paul Nuttall made his speech.

:25:18. > :25:25.He said this in the aftermath of the result. Once we have freedom to

:25:26. > :25:29.control and Borders, Paul wants to set up an immigration system that

:25:30. > :25:36.includes an aptitude test, do you have skills that the British economy

:25:37. > :25:40.needs, but also, and attitudes test, do you subscribe to core British

:25:41. > :25:44.values such as gender equality and freedom of expression? We will be

:25:45. > :25:49.making these arguments. It is certainly true that Paul's campaign

:25:50. > :25:51.was thrown off course by, particularly something that we knew

:25:52. > :25:57.the Labour Party had been preparing to run, the smear on the untruths,

:25:58. > :26:01.the implications about Hillsborough. If you knew you should have

:26:02. > :26:07.anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps to bankroll your party, he said that

:26:08. > :26:12.Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the Tory cabal in Europe, by which he

:26:13. > :26:17.means Douglas Carswell, Neil Hamilton. Should they be stripped of

:26:18. > :26:20.their membership? Of course not. As far as I knew, Alan Banks was a

:26:21. > :26:25.member of the Conservative Party formally. I do not know who this

:26:26. > :26:29.Tory cabal is supposed to be. He says that your party is more like a

:26:30. > :26:33.jumble sale than a political party. He says that the party should make

:26:34. > :26:38.him chairman or they will work. What do you see to that? He has made that

:26:39. > :26:42.statement several times over many months, including if you do not

:26:43. > :26:46.throw out your only MP. Douglas Carswell has managed to win twice

:26:47. > :26:50.under Ukip colours. Should Tibi chairman? I think we have an

:26:51. > :26:57.excellent young chairman at the moment. He is doing a good job. The

:26:58. > :27:03.idea that Leave.EU was as smooth running brilliant machine, that does

:27:04. > :27:07.not sit with the facts as I understand them. Suzanne Evans says

:27:08. > :27:11.it would be no great loss for Ukip if Mr Banks walked out, severed his

:27:12. > :27:15.ties and took his money elsewhere. Is she right. I am always happy

:27:16. > :27:20.people who want to give money and support your party want to stay in

:27:21. > :27:25.the party. The best donors donate and do not seek to dictate. If they

:27:26. > :27:28.are experts in certain fields, people should listen to their views

:27:29. > :27:32.but to have a daughter telling the party leader who should be party

:27:33. > :27:37.chairman, that is a nonstarter. You have described your existing party

:27:38. > :27:43.chairman is excellent. He said it could be 20 years before Ukip wins

:27:44. > :27:46.by-election. Is he being too optimistic? There is a general

:27:47. > :27:51.election coming up in the years' time. We will be aiming to win seats

:27:52. > :27:56.in that. Before that, we will be the guard dog for Brexit, to make sure

:27:57. > :28:00.this extraordinary achievement of a little party... You are guard dog

:28:01. > :28:04.without a kennel, you cannot get seat? We're keeping the big

:28:05. > :28:10.establishment parties to do the will of the people. If we achieve nothing

:28:11. > :28:11.else at all, that will be a magnificent achievement. Thank you

:28:12. > :28:13.very much. Sweden isn't somewhere

:28:14. > :28:14.we talk about often should because this

:28:15. > :28:18.week it was pulled into the global spotlight,

:28:19. > :28:18.thanks Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked

:28:19. > :28:28.for referring to an incident that had occurred last night in Sweden

:28:29. > :28:31.as a result of the country's open Critics were quick to point out that

:28:32. > :28:35.no such incident had occurred and Mr Trump later clarified

:28:36. > :28:37.on Twitter and he was talking about a report he had

:28:38. > :28:41.watched on Fox News. But as if to prove

:28:42. > :28:43.he was onto something, next day a riot broke out

:28:44. > :28:45.in a Stockholm suburb with a large migrant population,

:28:46. > :28:48.following unrest in such areas So what has been Sweden's

:28:49. > :28:58.experience of migration? In 2015, a record 162,000 people

:28:59. > :29:00.claimed asylum there, the second That number dropped to 29,000

:29:01. > :29:07.in 2016 after the country introduced border restrictions and stopped

:29:08. > :29:09.offering permanent Tensions have risen,

:29:10. > :29:17.along with claims of links to crime, although official statistics do not

:29:18. > :29:19.provide evidence of a refugee driven Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump,

:29:20. > :29:28.claiming this week that migrants have led to a dramatic rise

:29:29. > :29:31.in sexual offences. Although the country does

:29:32. > :29:33.have the highest reported rate of rape in Europe,

:29:34. > :29:35.Swedish authorities say recent rises were due to changes to how rape

:29:36. > :29:40.and sex crimes are recorded. Aside from the issue of crime,

:29:41. > :29:43.Sweden has struggled Levels of inequality between natives

:29:44. > :29:48.and migrants when it comes Unemployment rates are three times

:29:49. > :29:52.higher for foreign-born workers We're joined now by Laila Naraghi,

:29:53. > :30:04.she's a Swedish MP from the governing Social Democratic Party,

:30:05. > :30:21.and by the author and The Swedish political establishment

:30:22. > :30:24.was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks, pointing to a riot that hadn't taken

:30:25. > :30:28.place, then a few nights later serious riots did break out in a

:30:29. > :30:34.largely migrant suburb of Stockholm so he wasn't far out, was he? I

:30:35. > :30:40.think he was far out because he is misleading the public with how he

:30:41. > :30:42.uses these statistics. I think it is important to remember that the

:30:43. > :30:46.violence has decreased in Sweden for the past 20 years and research shows

:30:47. > :30:55.there is no evidence that indicate that immigration leads to crime and

:30:56. > :30:59.so I think it is far out. The social unrest in these different areas is

:31:00. > :31:02.not because of their ethical backgrounds of these people living

:31:03. > :31:10.there but more about social economic reasons. OK, no evidence migrants

:31:11. > :31:16.are responsible for any kind of crime? This story reminds me after

:31:17. > :31:20.what happened to the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris when also a Fox

:31:21. > :31:26.News commentator said something that was outlandish about Paris and the

:31:27. > :31:31.Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox News, saying you are making our city

:31:32. > :31:35.look bad. It's a bit like that because the truth on this lies

:31:36. > :31:38.between Donald Trump on the Swedish authorities on this. Sweden and

:31:39. > :31:44.Swedish government is very reluctant to admit any downsides of its own

:31:45. > :31:49.migration policy and particularly the migration it hard in 2015 but

:31:50. > :31:55.there are very obvious downsides because Sweden is not a country that

:31:56. > :32:00.needs a non-skilled labour force which doesn't speak Swedish. What

:32:01. > :32:05.was raised as the matter of evidence, what is the evidence?

:32:06. > :32:09.First of all if I can say so the rape statistics in Sweden that have

:32:10. > :32:13.been cited are familiar with the rape statistics across other

:32:14. > :32:15.countries that have seen similar forms of migration. Danish

:32:16. > :32:21.authorities and the Norwegian authorities have recorded a similar

:32:22. > :32:28.thing. It is not done by ethnicity so we don't know. And this is part

:32:29. > :32:34.of the problem. It is again a lot of lies and rumours going about. When

:32:35. > :32:38.it is about for example rape, it is difficult to compare the statistics

:32:39. > :32:42.because in Sweden for example many crimes that in other countries are

:32:43. > :32:48.labelled as bodily harm or assault are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also

:32:49. > :32:54.how it is counted because if a woman goes to the police and reports that

:32:55. > :33:03.her husband or boyfriend has raped her, and done it every night for one

:33:04. > :33:07.year, in Sweden that is counted as 365 offences. Something is going

:33:08. > :33:11.wrong, I look at the recent news from Sweden. Six Afghan child

:33:12. > :33:13.refugees committed suicide in the last six months, unemployment among

:33:14. > :33:20.recent migrants now five times higher than among non-migrants. We

:33:21. > :33:26.have seen gang violence in Malmo where a British child was killed by

:33:27. > :33:30.a grenade, rioting in Stockholm. Police in Sweden say there are 53

:33:31. > :33:36.areas of the country where it is now dangerous to patrol. Something has

:33:37. > :33:42.gone wrong. Let me get back to what I think is the core of this debate

:33:43. > :33:46.if I may and that is the right for people fleeing war and political

:33:47. > :33:50.persecution to seek asylum, that is a human right. In Sweden we don't

:33:51. > :33:55.think we can do everything, but we want to live up to our obligation,

:33:56. > :33:59.every country has an obligation to receive asylum seekers. But you have

:34:00. > :34:04.changed your policy on that because having taken 163,001 year alone, you

:34:05. > :34:09.have then closed your borders, I think very wisely, closed the border

:34:10. > :34:13.which means 10,000 people per day at one point were walking from Denmark

:34:14. > :34:19.in to Malmo, you rightly changed that so he realised whatever ones

:34:20. > :34:22.aspirations in terms of asylum, it sometimes meets reality and Sweden

:34:23. > :34:28.is meeting the reality of this. Let's respond to that. We are not

:34:29. > :34:31.naive, we know we cannot do everything but we want to try to do

:34:32. > :34:36.our share as we think other countries also need to do their

:34:37. > :34:39.share. But let me say that, if you look at what the World Economic

:34:40. > :34:44.Forum is saying about our country they show we are in the top of many

:34:45. > :34:53.rankings, the best country to live in, to age in, to have children in,

:34:54. > :35:00.to start into -- to start enterprise. Why have you not been so

:35:01. > :35:04.good at integrating migrants? The unemployment rate is five times

:35:05. > :35:08.higher among migrants than non-migrants and that's the highest

:35:09. > :35:12.ratio of any country in the EU and the OECD, why have you not been able

:35:13. > :35:18.to integrate the people you have brought in for humanitarian reasons?

:35:19. > :35:21.I'm sure there are things we can do much better of course but if you

:35:22. > :35:26.look for example at the immigration that came in the 90s from the

:35:27. > :35:30.Balkans, they are well integrated and contributing to our society.

:35:31. > :35:34.They are starting enterprises and working in different fields of

:35:35. > :35:43.society, and they help our country. Why have they not got jobs, the

:35:44. > :35:48.migrants that have come in? It takes time. In the 90s we managed it and

:35:49. > :35:52.I'm sure we can do it again. Can I put this into some context, it is

:35:53. > :35:56.clear Sweden has got problems as a result of the number of migrants

:35:57. > :36:00.that come in, whether it is as bad as Mr Trump and others make out is

:36:01. > :36:05.another matter, but perhaps I can put it into context. Malmo, which

:36:06. > :36:12.has been at the centre of many of these migrant problems, its homicide

:36:13. > :36:18.rate is three per hundred thousand. Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have

:36:19. > :36:22.problems but they are not huge. No, they are pretty huge and I think

:36:23. > :36:26.they will grow. The Balkan refugees into Sweden in the 90s did bring a

:36:27. > :36:32.lot of problems and Sweden did for the first time see serious ethnic

:36:33. > :36:37.gang rivalries. There was an upsurge in gang-related violence that has

:36:38. > :36:40.gone on since. The situation in Malmo in particular is exaggerated

:36:41. > :36:45.by some people, there's no doubt about that, I have been there many

:36:46. > :36:50.times and it is undoubtedly exaggerated by some, it is also

:36:51. > :37:00.vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish authorities. -- understated. In

:37:01. > :37:09.2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo registered some form of attack on

:37:10. > :37:14.them. It got so bad that in 2010 people offered to escort Jews... You

:37:15. > :37:21.have had a good say and I have got to be fair here, what do you say to

:37:22. > :37:24.that, Laila Naraghi? There are people trying to frame our country

:37:25. > :37:28.in a certain way to push their own agenda. I regret that President

:37:29. > :37:35.Trump is trying to slander our country. But what about the specific

:37:36. > :37:39.point on Malmo? If you speak to people in Malmo and also to

:37:40. > :37:42.different congregations, they say they are working together with the

:37:43. > :37:48.authorities to improve this. I say again, there are a lot of people

:37:49. > :37:53.trying to spread rumours and lies. Your situation is very like the

:37:54. > :37:58.situation we had in Britain when we have these situations in Rotherham

:37:59. > :38:01.and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped in Rotherham before police even

:38:02. > :38:06.admitted it was going on. That happened in Britain in the last

:38:07. > :38:10.decade, a similar phenomenon. An upsurge in particularly sexual and

:38:11. > :38:14.other forms of violence and then total denial by an entire political

:38:15. > :38:18.class is now something that is happening in Sweden. I see it in

:38:19. > :38:23.Swedish authorities and the denial that comes up and the desire to

:38:24. > :38:26.laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not answer nothing and that's a painful

:38:27. > :38:36.thing for any society to want to admit to. There are number of Swedes

:38:37. > :38:41.who think the establishment is covering up the true statistics,

:38:42. > :38:44.that you don't break crime down by ethnic crimes, people are suspicious

:38:45. > :38:50.of the centre-left and centre-right parties now in Sweden. There is no

:38:51. > :38:54.denial and no cover-up. This is what I'm speaking about when I say people

:38:55. > :38:57.are trying to frame it in a certain way. The social unrest is not

:38:58. > :39:02.because of the ethnical background of the people living there but

:39:03. > :39:05.rather because of different socioeconomics conditions. There is

:39:06. > :39:11.no research that shows immigration... But you don't do the

:39:12. > :39:14.research into it. Swedish authorities deliberately ensure you

:39:15. > :39:20.cannot carry out such research and after the attacks in Cologne in 2015

:39:21. > :39:23.it was the first time then that the Swedish authorities and press

:39:24. > :39:28.admitted that similar sexual molestation have been going on for

:39:29. > :39:33.years in Sweden. Is it right to think, given the problem is maybe

:39:34. > :39:39.not as bad as many people make out but clearly problems, given these

:39:40. > :39:44.problems, is the age of mass asylum seeking for Sweden over? You have

:39:45. > :39:47.cut the numbers by 80% coming in last year compared with 2015, is it

:39:48. > :39:52.over while you concentrate on getting right the people that you

:39:53. > :39:56.have there already? We want to do our share, we have done a lot and

:39:57. > :39:58.now we are concentrating of course on integration and making sure

:39:59. > :40:14.people get a job, and also on big welfare investments because

:40:15. > :40:16.it's important to remember that for eight years Sweden were governed by

:40:17. > :40:19.a government that prioritised big tax cuts instead of investment in

:40:20. > :40:21.welfare. It may just not work. I am grateful to you both, we have to

:40:22. > :40:22.leave it there. It's coming up to 11:40am,

:40:23. > :40:24.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:40:25. > :40:27.in Scotland, who leave us now the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking

:40:28. > :40:49.if the Government is facing defeat Welcome to Sunday Politics East.

:40:50. > :40:55.Later in the programme, business rate rises, a threat to our High

:40:56. > :40:58.Street or a storm in a teacup? The government may be claiming that

:40:59. > :41:01.business rates are going down, but certainly, that isn't our

:41:02. > :41:04.experience. With us today, Bernard Jenkin, the

:41:05. > :41:08.Conservative MP for Harwich and North Essex, and Alex Maier, who

:41:09. > :41:12.replaced Richard Howitt as the Labour member of the European

:41:13. > :41:17.We are starting with funding from We are starting with funding from

:41:18. > :41:20.the EU. Of course, when we leave the EU, we won't be getting any more of

:41:21. > :41:26.its regional grants and investment, and this week, we have some idea

:41:27. > :41:30.what that might mean. According to a report for one of our business

:41:31. > :41:34.organisations, more than ?4 billion in grants has come to this region

:41:35. > :41:38.over the last ten years. That does not include CAP payments to farmers.

:41:39. > :41:43.The report warns in the short term, at least, we are unlikely to see

:41:44. > :41:46.similar levels of funding for business, infrastructure and social

:41:47. > :41:51.development once we have left the. Here is Andrew Sinclair.

:41:52. > :41:56.If you want an idea of the difference that EU funding has made,

:41:57. > :42:03.take a look at this printing firm in Ipswich. It makes colour sampling

:42:04. > :42:08.cards for paint companies and was struggling to expand, but a ?67,000

:42:09. > :42:12.grant from the Growing Business Fund meant that last year, it could move

:42:13. > :42:15.to new premises and take on extra staff.

:42:16. > :42:18.It was very important, because it enabled us to fit out to a much

:42:19. > :42:21.higher standard than we would have done and enabled us to move two

:42:22. > :42:24.units into one at an earlier stage than we would have done.

:42:25. > :42:31.If you haven't been able to get this grand? We would probably still be

:42:32. > :42:34.working out of two unit! Across the eastern region, large

:42:35. > :42:40.towns, rural communities, high-tech research parks, along with roads and

:42:41. > :42:45.other transport projects have benefited from EU funding. But what

:42:46. > :42:50.will happen when we leave? This report, commissioned by the New

:42:51. > :42:54.Anglia Lep, and written by the East of England Brussels office, makes

:42:55. > :42:58.sobering reading. It finds that in the last decade, just two of our

:42:59. > :43:01.counties, Norfolk and Suffolk, have received ?1.9 billion of EU

:43:02. > :43:10.investment, which together with other grants, brought in a total of

:43:11. > :43:13.?7.3 billion. And figures for other parts of the region are even higher.

:43:14. > :43:15.And the report warns that it cannot see how a lot of this funding will

:43:16. > :43:25.be replaced. investment bank, it may be possible

:43:26. > :43:32.we will continue to be able to borrow from the investment bank. As

:43:33. > :43:34.for the range of other programmes, University funding, agricultural

:43:35. > :43:38.funding, local growth funding, how that is to be decided is essentially

:43:39. > :43:41.a domestic issue, and something we don't know yet.

:43:42. > :43:45.During the referendum, the Leave campaign argued that because we send

:43:46. > :43:50.there would be enough money to, yes, there would be enough money to, yes,

:43:51. > :43:53.help the NHS, but also to help the little people these projects going

:43:54. > :44:01.after Brexit. But could some of them get the chop? The report says that

:44:02. > :44:05.it could depend on the whims of future government.

:44:06. > :44:10.At the moment, funding runs over seven years, which could run over

:44:11. > :44:13.two parliamentary terms in the UK and European parliaments, so you can

:44:14. > :44:17.remove some of the politics of agricultural and research funding,

:44:18. > :44:24.of growth funding. That will become a politicised issue now, I think, in

:44:25. > :44:26.future UK elections. This is not finished, but it is

:44:27. > :44:27.nearly there. Here is another beneficiary of EU

:44:28. > :44:33.funding. On the Norfolk- Suffolk funding. On the Norfolk- Suffolk

:44:34. > :44:38.border, Hannah has opened a winery. They have planted vineyard. The

:44:39. > :44:42.fund allowed her and her husband to fund allowed her and her husband to

:44:43. > :44:47.invest in processing equipment and they will surely' to Mac is centre.

:44:48. > :44:51.Banks would not fund us because we are a new business. We fit the bill

:44:52. > :44:55.because we are going to be boosting because we are going to be boosting

:44:56. > :45:02.tourism in the area, and employing local people here and having a local

:45:03. > :45:06.supply chain. As long as we are in the EU, we are entitled to apply for

:45:07. > :45:09.funds for projects like this. But there is another problem. The

:45:10. > :45:14.current EU funding period ends in early 2021. That is nearly two years

:45:15. > :45:19.after we have left EU, and so that means that not all the money that

:45:20. > :45:23.has currently been promised to the east will be given to us. The

:45:24. > :45:30.Chancellor has agreed to fund all EU projects to the end of very great

:45:31. > :45:33.term, but after that, he has been noncommittal, and with the head of

:45:34. > :45:38.the European Commission warning this week that we will pay a heavy price

:45:39. > :45:40.for leaving the EU, the region's business community is concerned.

:45:41. > :45:43.We want to work with government and other colleagues to ensure money is

:45:44. > :45:47.still available to support economic growth in our counties.

:45:48. > :45:54.You can't be sure that it will be. We can't be sure that it will be,

:45:55. > :45:56.but it is certainly, we believe, a priority to protect funding in

:45:57. > :45:59.science and innovation, to protect science and innovation, to protect

:46:00. > :46:08.funding for farming communities. And also to protect funding.

:46:09. > :46:11.More than 1000 projects have benefited from EU support in this

:46:12. > :46:16.region. The business community would like to know what happens next.

:46:17. > :46:21.Bernard Jenkin, what does happen next?

:46:22. > :46:31.Well, Lott needs to happen next, and it is a report where two things need

:46:32. > :46:38.to be borne in mind. Globally, the UK gets twice as much money to the

:46:39. > :46:41.European Union than what we get back, and once we have left the

:46:42. > :46:44.European Union, we're not going to be short of money. We have more

:46:45. > :46:50.money available, and people like me why do we want our fair share for

:46:51. > :46:55.our region. And the second point is that this money will be under our

:46:56. > :46:59.control. It will be cheaper to administer because we won't go

:47:00. > :47:03.through the bureaucracy, and for example, agriculture is exactly the

:47:04. > :47:07.same. We will need to create, probably, and agriculture bill to

:47:08. > :47:10.create a UK agricultural policy through which the government will

:47:11. > :47:13.provide support for agriculture, but these things have not been done and

:47:14. > :47:18.I can quite understand people are feeling a bit uncertain about it.

:47:19. > :47:21.And it is the uncertainty, isn't it? Don't we have to put our cards on

:47:22. > :47:24.the table and say yes, you will get this money?

:47:25. > :47:30.Yes, I think we do, but regional and structural funds, which is what the

:47:31. > :47:37.programme is about, these are for the whole nation, and we will need

:47:38. > :47:40.to agree a framework not just for England but with the Scottish and

:47:41. > :47:44.Northern Ireland government and with the Welsh government, and I hope it

:47:45. > :47:47.is going to be a joint cooperative framework. So I think there is an

:47:48. > :47:52.opportunity to make sure it is anchored in a longer-term

:47:53. > :47:55.perspective than just one general election to the next Westminster,

:47:56. > :47:57.that it will have more permanence to it.

:47:58. > :48:01.Now you are at the EU Parliament, does this get talked about?

:48:02. > :48:05.Absolutely, and it is talked about right across our region. I am really

:48:06. > :48:10.concerned about this European funding disappearing.

:48:11. > :48:14.When you talk to people, what do When you talk to people, what do

:48:15. > :48:18.they say about this? They recognise the benefits that

:48:19. > :48:25.European funding brings two regions, and specifically two regions. The

:48:26. > :48:28.Suffolk, Devonshire Cambridgeshire, Suffolk, Devonshire Cambridgeshire,

:48:29. > :48:31.and that is one of the big concerns people have got, is that yes, there

:48:32. > :48:36.will be different money available, but will be invested in our region?

:48:37. > :48:40.And what will happen to the collaborative work that goes on the

:48:41. > :48:43.moment. I was in Great Yarmouth yesterday, talking to a local arts

:48:44. > :48:47.company, and one of the things that they really benefit from is not just

:48:48. > :48:52.the money was also the fact that they can work with other European

:48:53. > :48:55.partners and share practice. People who collaborate with European

:48:56. > :48:58.countries are still going to do that, aren't they?

:48:59. > :49:01.I think you were more difficult, because funding programmes at the

:49:02. > :49:04.moment really encourage that, and it will be tougher post-Brexit. -- I

:49:05. > :49:09.think it will be more difficult. I don't quite understand the point

:49:10. > :49:12.you are making. The fact is that this money, twice as much money,

:49:13. > :49:17.will now be under our control after we have left, and it is about

:49:18. > :49:23.collaboration with our European partners, though and will be less

:49:24. > :49:25.easy for companies here to collaborate two no, it will be just

:49:26. > :49:30.the same. We collaborate globally across the

:49:31. > :49:34.world with companies and universities and science, and all

:49:35. > :49:38.these things are global things. The idea that the only way you can

:49:39. > :49:42.cooperate in Europe is through the EU, I mean, it is going to change,

:49:43. > :49:46.it is going to be different, and that is what I think people find, if

:49:47. > :49:50.they are people who are used to what they have got, it will change, but

:49:51. > :49:55.there's no reason why there should be just as much collaboration across

:49:56. > :49:57.frontiers in the European Union. -- in Europe.

:49:58. > :50:00.And the political perspective on this, what are you hearing from your

:50:01. > :50:04.perspectives on the European Parliament? -- your colleagues?

:50:05. > :50:09.They are worried about the European project as a whole, I would say.

:50:10. > :50:14.Brexit is not what is on everyone's... . If you are German,

:50:15. > :50:18.you will by German elections, if you are French, about Marine Le Pen. I

:50:19. > :50:23.don't think Brexit is a top pirated for the politicians in Europe. --

:50:24. > :50:27.top priority. That will make a really difficult for Britain to get

:50:28. > :50:30.a good deal, and I see no reason we will get a better deal outside of

:50:31. > :50:33.Europe than we did when we were in it.

:50:34. > :50:40.Unless, of course, all those other countries do what we have done?

:50:41. > :50:46.And leave. Yes. You are absolutely right. I think

:50:47. > :50:48.the way that Europe has, the way the EU is becoming preoccupied with the

:50:49. > :50:53.very intractable problems in the Eurozone is very difficult. You

:50:54. > :50:55.might finish up without any deal at all, and I think we have to be

:50:56. > :50:59.prepared for that. I agree. Let's move on. MPs from

:51:00. > :51:02.across the region have been campaigning for the government to

:51:03. > :51:03.give more help to companies here that are facing a big increase in

:51:04. > :51:09.their business rates. There are sharp increases in some

:51:10. > :51:12.places, but that is not the case everywhere.

:51:13. > :51:16.Across the region, the only places facing an overall increase in North

:51:17. > :51:23.Norfolk, the Cambridge area, and Forest Heath. In each case, the rise

:51:24. > :51:29.will be 2%. Everywhere else, there will be at the crease. Up to 12% in

:51:30. > :51:34.Stevenage and 13% in Bedford. But even in areas where on average,

:51:35. > :51:37.rates will fall, some businesses will be facing an increase, and some

:51:38. > :51:41.of those will be big. We were anticipating that they would

:51:42. > :51:45.approximately double, but in fact, they have gone up by more than three

:51:46. > :51:49.times. The government may claim that business rates are going down, but

:51:50. > :51:53.certainly, that isn't our experience, and I very much doubt

:51:54. > :51:55.that it is the experience of many small businesses.

:51:56. > :51:58.Others believe they can cope with the changes.

:51:59. > :52:04.We are currently paying about 2870 in our business rates, and based on

:52:05. > :52:08.what I have seen on valuation, I think it will go up modestly to

:52:09. > :52:11.We are quite lucky here is a company We are quite lucky here is a company

:52:12. > :52:15.that it hasn't been extraordinary. We look at other people, and they

:52:16. > :52:18.are jumping up and down a bit at this moment.

:52:19. > :52:23.And there are some hotspots like Southwold in Suffolk, where the

:52:24. > :52:28.rates and the shop will go up from ?2000 a year to nearly 12,000.

:52:29. > :52:32.At the moment, I pay myself only the minimum wage. I pay myself ?10,000 a

:52:33. > :52:36.year. Everything I make goes back into the business, so we are looking

:52:37. > :52:41.at potentially decisions about people that I employ, decisions

:52:42. > :52:46.about where money is invested in the business.

:52:47. > :52:52.Suffolk Coastal, which includes Suffolk Coastal, which includes

:52:53. > :52:55.Southwold. She was one of the few MPs who went to see the Chancellor

:52:56. > :52:55.of the Exchequer Philip Hammond this week.

:52:56. > :52:59.We address the particular issues We address the particular issues

:53:00. > :53:05.involving towns, and small High Street, which have seen a reduction

:53:06. > :53:09.in popularity. It is fair to say, I think, the Chancellor recognises

:53:10. > :53:13.some of the challenges, but also, we exchanged thoughts on what could be

:53:14. > :53:15.done to try and tackle this particular situation that we are

:53:16. > :53:21.experiencing in places like Southwold and Aldborough. While I

:53:22. > :53:27.recognise that councils have the opportunity to offer discounts, I

:53:28. > :53:29.also understand they -- their resources are somewhat constrained.

:53:30. > :53:33.Think it is there to say the Chancellor was obviously in

:53:34. > :53:37.listening mode and I know you took away the figures, and certainly,

:53:38. > :53:40.when I saw him the following day, he said he was using them in the

:53:41. > :53:45.Treasury to look at further analysis on this particular issue.

:53:46. > :53:49.What would you like him to do? I don't want to pre-empt the budget.

:53:50. > :53:57.I would like him to really consider the role of the mixed High Street. A

:53:58. > :54:00.lot of these traders have done what we asked for and improved and

:54:01. > :54:04.enhance the High Street, but I put across very strongly the points that

:54:05. > :54:09.traders have made to me directly, that this is not just about the

:54:10. > :54:14.summertime, when these places are bustling and booming, but also, they

:54:15. > :54:17.may provide a service year-round to residents, and I thing that really

:54:18. > :54:22.needs reinforcing, which I was happy to do on their behalf.

:54:23. > :54:26.In your constituency, quite a few places will see a rise, but across

:54:27. > :54:29.the East, a a lot of businesses will see a reduction in their business

:54:30. > :54:32.rate. That's right, nationally, three

:54:33. > :54:37.quarters of businesses will see either a forlorn no change, and I am

:54:38. > :54:43.really pleased that a lot of businesses will benefit. However,

:54:44. > :54:47.there are some extremes at one end, and Southwold in particular, where

:54:48. > :54:53.the average increase on the High Street were rateable values is 177%,

:54:54. > :54:57.those independent small traders that those independent small traders that

:54:58. > :54:59.I wanted to really go and make the I wanted to really go and make the

:55:00. > :55:03.case of the Chancellor to see if there is any way he can provide them

:55:04. > :55:06.with some help in the forthcoming changes.

:55:07. > :55:09.Is there a temptation that hard up councils will actually be finding

:55:10. > :55:13.ways to put up business rates more than they should?

:55:14. > :55:18.I don't think it is in councils' interest to try and price are

:55:19. > :55:21.businesses from their area. Far from the case, it is in their interest to

:55:22. > :55:24.bring in new businesses into the area, and I'm glad that is what has

:55:25. > :55:28.happened in East Suffolk, where we are seeing new businesses continuing

:55:29. > :55:32.to be established. How easy do you think it is to do it

:55:33. > :55:38.with online businesses? Well, I think this is one issue that

:55:39. > :55:40.retailers are raising regularly. We already have a situation where

:55:41. > :55:44.online businesses will be taxed on online businesses will be taxed on

:55:45. > :55:49.corporation tax, and they would argue that they are not, how can I

:55:50. > :55:52.elements to bring people to their elements to bring people to their

:55:53. > :55:55.particular business. People access particular business. People access

:55:56. > :56:01.that through the internet. I don't pretend I have the answers on a

:56:02. > :56:04.brand-new way to generate the revenue that business rates does

:56:05. > :56:09.today, but I think the Chancellor is open to ideas on that.

:56:10. > :56:14.I was speaking to a small independent businessmen today whose

:56:15. > :56:18.rent has gone up from antiquity and his business rates are going up, and

:56:19. > :56:24.he is just closing the door. That is going to happen, isn't it, in some

:56:25. > :56:27.places? -- his rent has gone up exponentially.

:56:28. > :56:29.That is sad to hear, and some of the work I have been doing with their

:56:30. > :56:33.MPs to raise the issue with the Chancellor, as well as meeting

:56:34. > :56:37.previous finance ministers, named due to meet Sergei Javad again next

:56:38. > :56:42.week, is to raise the potential consequences of this. That said, we

:56:43. > :56:43.need to make sure that we want to encourage landlords to be

:56:44. > :56:46.responsible and the rent increases responsible and the rent increases

:56:47. > :56:50.they put on people, recognising that, as I say, other costs will

:56:51. > :56:55.follow from that, and we don't want to see empty high streets.

:56:56. > :56:58.Thank you very much. Bernard Jenkin, don't we have to

:56:59. > :57:03.find another way of doing this? Well, I wrote a pamphlet is 20 years

:57:04. > :57:07.ago, when John Major was Prime Minister, and we had a rating

:57:08. > :57:09.revaluation, and there was a huge row, and the government went into

:57:10. > :57:13.retreat and fought all over again. Here we are 20 years later going

:57:14. > :57:19.through exactly the same thing, and it is an outdated tax, one that was

:57:20. > :57:25.invented before the internet, before cars were invented, before... I

:57:26. > :57:28.think trains may have been around. But it is such a different world we

:57:29. > :57:35.live in now, I'm not sure it is a really good basis. Obviously, we

:57:36. > :57:39.must have some property taxes, or a property tax of some kind, but this

:57:40. > :57:41.seems to be very perverse, particularly because businesses that

:57:42. > :57:45.make his excess of their businesses and therefore put up the value of

:57:46. > :57:49.their premises, they are the ones you get punished.

:57:50. > :57:53.The online business thing is a difficult area as well, isn't it?

:57:54. > :57:57.Yes, it is difficult to find a way of taxing those kind of online

:57:58. > :58:01.companies, but what I think we have seen at the moment is, we have got

:58:02. > :58:04.winners and losers here, and the issuers, the people who are losing

:58:05. > :58:07.out at the moment, it is just happening too quickly.

:58:08. > :58:16.We need some certainty, because businesses can't be expected to just

:58:17. > :58:19.overnight. They need time to plan overnight. They need time to plan

:58:20. > :58:22.that, and we need some certainty from the government about what they

:58:23. > :58:24.plan to do during a transition. And there is a danger that we will

:58:25. > :58:27.drive out of our high streets and drive out of our high streets and

:58:28. > :58:32.shops that make them and Justin, the smallest shops?

:58:33. > :58:34.Yes, and they are the ones that people really like in their High

:58:35. > :58:38.Street, the different shops, the ones that are different and special,

:58:39. > :58:43.particularly as our coastal towns, as you showed in your film.

:58:44. > :58:50.We need a period of transition. There is already one announced, ?3.6

:58:51. > :58:52.billion committed to the transitional programme, so that some

:58:53. > :58:56.of the people who are getting rateable values through that have

:58:57. > :58:59.gone very substantially, they will never, ever get to the point where

:59:00. > :59:05.they pay that rateable value, because the transition go to slowly.

:59:06. > :59:06.But what the Prime Minister said the Chancellor has already indicated,

:59:07. > :59:14.there will be budget announcements there will be budget announcements

:59:15. > :59:18.which we are not allowed to talk about... Obviously, they are going

:59:19. > :59:23.to look at the transitional programme, and they are right, we

:59:24. > :59:25.need to smooth the pain. But the fundamental problem is, we're

:59:26. > :59:29.talking the High Street. That has been going on for years, and this

:59:30. > :59:34.accelerates the process. If you put a rateable values, because the chain

:59:35. > :59:37.is coming, the coffee shops, the restaurant and pub chains, who are

:59:38. > :59:41.very good at generating much higher turnover, but at the rent and

:59:42. > :59:45.values, and then the little bakery, your little book shop, your tool

:59:46. > :59:48.store, these people will get squeezed out. I don't know what the

:59:49. > :59:52.answer is, but we need to have a new think about this rather than wait

:59:53. > :59:55.another 20 years and have another row about business rate in 20 years'

:59:56. > :59:56.time after we have lost a lot more shops.

:59:57. > :00:04.Let's move on. Time now for our round-up of the political weakens it

:00:05. > :00:10.to second. -- political week in 60 seconds.

:00:11. > :00:15.Norfolk became one of the last of our county councils to agree its

:00:16. > :00:22.budget for the new financial year, and it has gone for the biggest

:00:23. > :00:26.increase ever, 4.8%. For an average home, that means an extra ?57 a

:00:27. > :00:30.year. We have been subsidising the

:00:31. > :00:33.district councils. What we are saying is, hang on, we can no longer

:00:34. > :00:37.do this for you. The region's farmers say they could

:00:38. > :00:41.struggle to produce enough food of Brexit leads to a shortage of

:00:42. > :00:45.migrant workers. They told MPs this week that they need a guarantee that

:00:46. > :00:49.workers they need will be allowed to come here.

:00:50. > :00:53.We cannot find enough local labour in order to sustain the business and

:00:54. > :00:58.continue picking the crop I have got the ground. It sounds sensational,

:00:59. > :01:03.To raise Acas a steely eye over To raise Acas a steely eye over

:01:04. > :01:06.proceedings in the House of Lords, as Essex's baronet and Jill Smith

:01:07. > :01:12.kicked off the debate on leaving the EU. ! Theresa May.

:01:13. > :01:18.Back in the Commons, Speaker burqa slapped down Southend MP James

:01:19. > :01:22.Diedrich, whose motion expressing no confidence in him only attracted a

:01:23. > :01:30.handful of MPs. -- speaker Bercow. As the government

:01:31. > :01:33.backed banister -- -- as the government minister contacted you?

:01:34. > :01:38.The answer is no, and is no reason why they should have done.

:01:39. > :01:47.The low paid workers being is a big thing, isn't it? Yes, it is, and

:01:48. > :01:51.there are companies, farm workers across our region who are really

:01:52. > :01:55.concerned that post Brexit, they are not going to be able to get the

:01:56. > :01:58.workers here in our fields. That will make sure we have food on our

:01:59. > :02:02.tables. But there was a vote, referendum,

:02:03. > :02:05.people voted to come out of the EU, and one of the big things was

:02:06. > :02:10.actually cheap migrant labour coming into this country. That was one of

:02:11. > :02:13.the things that decided people. What you say to those people?

:02:14. > :02:17.What I say is that when you go to a supermarket, you're going to want

:02:18. > :02:19.there to be food there, and we need to make sure there are enough people

:02:20. > :02:24.available here in the country to make sure that the work is carried

:02:25. > :02:32.out on British farms, and it is not just about local aid cash --

:02:33. > :02:36.low-paid migrant micro-working our fields. It is about industries and

:02:37. > :02:38.East of England, to make sure Britain continues to be seen as an

:02:39. > :02:42.open and welcoming place where people want to come because it is

:02:43. > :02:47.important for our economy. David Davis seemed to say this week

:02:48. > :02:51.that actually, we would be getting migrant workers here still.

:02:52. > :02:56.Yes, I agree with every word, and I think David Davis probably would as

:02:57. > :02:59.well. Many of us fought on the Leave side using immigration as an example

:03:00. > :03:02.of something that we have lost control of, but that doesn't

:03:03. > :03:05.necessarily mean we think immigration is a bad thing for this

:03:06. > :03:06.country, and the right kind of immigration is good for this

:03:07. > :03:11.country. I have got horticultural country. I have got horticultural

:03:12. > :03:15.farms, fruit farms in my constituency facing this very

:03:16. > :03:19.problem. I have already had meetings with agriculture ministers and Home

:03:20. > :03:22.Office ministers. We used to have a scheme called B Seasonal

:03:23. > :03:25.Agricultural Workers' Scheme, and which should have that back. They

:03:26. > :03:27.should be trialling it this season should be trialling it this season

:03:28. > :03:31.in order to encourage people to come and deal with our labour shortages.

:03:32. > :03:34.Thank you both for being with us. That is all for now. You can keep in

:03:35. > :03:35.touch on our website. Back to Andrew in the studio.

:03:36. > :03:55.Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain

:03:56. > :03:59.leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way

:04:00. > :04:03.through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an

:04:04. > :04:10.intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.

:04:11. > :04:14.Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is

:04:15. > :04:18.going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll

:04:19. > :04:22.tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,

:04:23. > :04:28.that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't

:04:29. > :04:32.think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and

:04:33. > :04:37.Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion

:04:38. > :04:42.led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already

:04:43. > :04:46.moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how

:04:47. > :04:52.much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating

:04:53. > :04:57.that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of

:04:58. > :05:02.the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week

:05:03. > :05:05.on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind

:05:06. > :05:14.of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring

:05:15. > :05:17.that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords

:05:18. > :05:24.with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of

:05:25. > :05:29.it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a

:05:30. > :05:34.large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the

:05:35. > :05:39.Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as

:05:40. > :05:43.soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on

:05:44. > :05:47.Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and

:05:48. > :05:51.peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has

:05:52. > :05:56.all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in

:05:57. > :06:00.place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and

:06:01. > :06:06.the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them

:06:07. > :06:10.already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they

:06:11. > :06:15.were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they

:06:16. > :06:19.won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The

:06:20. > :06:22.question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The

:06:23. > :06:26.Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,

:06:27. > :06:31.but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in

:06:32. > :06:34.the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May

:06:35. > :06:41.because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in

:06:42. > :06:44.Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when

:06:45. > :06:47.they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain

:06:48. > :06:51.and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the

:06:52. > :06:55.moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional

:06:56. > :07:02.propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me

:07:03. > :07:06.the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of

:07:07. > :07:11.democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to

:07:12. > :07:15.cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.

:07:16. > :07:24.Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the

:07:25. > :07:28.Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and

:07:29. > :07:31.have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the

:07:32. > :07:36.timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,

:07:37. > :07:42.Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting

:07:43. > :07:47.that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party

:07:48. > :07:51.but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the

:07:52. > :07:55.most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this

:07:56. > :08:00.point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her

:08:01. > :08:02.timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel

:08:03. > :08:12.Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small

:08:13. > :08:17.group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is

:08:18. > :08:21.the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple

:08:22. > :08:27.of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the

:08:28. > :08:31.President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather

:08:32. > :08:36.close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is

:08:37. > :08:43.now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.

:08:44. > :08:49.Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not

:08:50. > :08:52.only close to the president but to a series of people within the

:08:53. > :08:57.administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to

:08:58. > :09:02.keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into

:09:03. > :09:08.that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can

:09:09. > :09:14.feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of

:09:15. > :09:18.negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and

:09:19. > :09:22.what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over

:09:23. > :09:26.later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into

:09:27. > :09:29.what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about

:09:30. > :09:33.our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among

:09:34. > :09:37.some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast

:09:38. > :09:41.with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet

:09:42. > :09:46.ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and

:09:47. > :09:50.we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind

:09:51. > :09:59.of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and

:10:00. > :10:02.that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no

:10:03. > :10:07.doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing

:10:08. > :10:15.the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it

:10:16. > :10:19.through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the

:10:20. > :10:23.president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically

:10:24. > :10:26.rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is

:10:27. > :10:31.his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is

:10:32. > :10:34.one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it

:10:35. > :10:44.isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said

:10:45. > :10:53.for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just

:10:54. > :10:58.look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor

:10:59. > :11:04.there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to

:11:05. > :11:10.go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which

:11:11. > :11:13.has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a

:11:14. > :11:17.serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more

:11:18. > :11:22.money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems

:11:23. > :11:26.there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people

:11:27. > :11:30.argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit

:11:31. > :11:37.but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.

:11:38. > :11:40.And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and

:11:41. > :11:45.the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and

:11:46. > :11:48.months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will

:11:49. > :11:54.have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to

:11:55. > :11:57.the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was

:11:58. > :12:01.remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If

:12:02. > :12:05.he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or

:12:06. > :12:08.another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she

:12:09. > :12:13.is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of

:12:14. > :12:19.the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.

:12:20. > :12:25.Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,

:12:26. > :12:31.magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are

:12:32. > :12:35.that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,

:12:36. > :12:40.rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to

:12:41. > :12:44.throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of

:12:45. > :12:48.this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to

:12:49. > :12:54.find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.

:12:55. > :12:57.I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim

:12:58. > :13:01.settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but

:13:02. > :13:08.they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in

:13:09. > :13:13.the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens

:13:14. > :13:18.promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,

:13:19. > :13:21.he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more

:13:22. > :13:23.important because that is when people will feel the cost living

:13:24. > :13:25.squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon

:13:26. > :13:29.on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at

:13:30. > :13:31.the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:32. > :13:38.it's the Sunday Politics.