12/03/2017

:00:33. > :00:38.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39. > :00:43.David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:44. > :00:45.ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:46. > :00:50.We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:51. > :00:53.Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:54. > :01:01.But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:01:02. > :01:03.And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:04. > :01:11.We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

:01:12. > :01:15.How will the first elected mayor for Cambridgeshire shape up

:01:16. > :01:17.against the powers of this mayor in Germany?

:01:18. > :01:29.And the row over the betrayal of white van man.

:01:30. > :01:31.And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

:01:32. > :01:35.who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

:01:36. > :01:36.It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

:01:37. > :01:41.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

:01:42. > :01:48.abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

:01:49. > :01:51.BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

:01:52. > :01:54.So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

:01:55. > :01:56.perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

:01:57. > :02:00.Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

:02:01. > :02:02.getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

:02:03. > :02:04.Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

:02:05. > :02:07.earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

:02:08. > :02:17.Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

:02:18. > :02:22.There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

:02:23. > :02:25.That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

:02:26. > :02:32.The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

:02:33. > :02:37.My job, and the job of the government, is to make

:02:38. > :02:47.the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

:02:48. > :02:55.There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

:02:56. > :02:58.it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

:02:59. > :03:00.government means by a meaningful vote.

:03:01. > :03:07.I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

:03:08. > :03:11.for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

:03:12. > :03:14.think it would be politically impossible for the government to

:03:15. > :03:17.reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

:03:18. > :03:20.politics will be completely different by then. I take David

:03:21. > :03:25.Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

:03:26. > :03:29.being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

:03:30. > :03:32.Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

:03:33. > :03:36.three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

:03:37. > :03:41.is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

:03:42. > :03:44.floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:45. > :03:48.than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

:03:49. > :03:54.would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

:03:55. > :03:59.still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

:04:00. > :04:02.of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

:04:03. > :04:05.the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

:04:06. > :04:09.for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

:04:10. > :04:13.case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

:04:14. > :04:18.EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

:04:19. > :04:21.the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

:04:22. > :04:26.countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

:04:27. > :04:30.not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

:04:31. > :04:33.EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

:04:34. > :04:37.the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

:04:38. > :04:40.have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

:04:41. > :04:45.Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

:04:46. > :04:48.government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

:04:49. > :04:53.deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

:04:54. > :04:56.Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

:04:57. > :05:01.the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

:05:02. > :05:06.back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

:05:07. > :05:09.without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

:05:10. > :05:14.know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

:05:15. > :05:20.one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

:05:21. > :05:24.Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

:05:25. > :05:28.worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

:05:29. > :05:37.But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

:05:38. > :05:40.if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

:05:41. > :05:44.the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

:05:45. > :05:48.is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

:05:49. > :05:55.two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

:05:56. > :05:59.vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

:06:00. > :06:05.if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

:06:06. > :06:09.government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

:06:10. > :06:12.government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

:06:13. > :06:18.it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

:06:19. > :06:22.we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

:06:23. > :06:26.referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

:06:27. > :06:29.government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

:06:30. > :06:32.changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

:06:33. > :06:37.fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

:06:38. > :06:41.deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

:06:42. > :06:45.The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

:06:46. > :06:50.deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

:06:51. > :06:55.a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

:06:56. > :06:58.holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

:06:59. > :07:01.So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

:07:02. > :07:04.That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

:07:05. > :07:07.to vote against their government on two key issues.

:07:08. > :07:10.Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

:07:11. > :07:12.partners within days, but there may be some

:07:13. > :07:15.wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

:07:16. > :07:19.Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

:07:20. > :07:21.The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

:07:22. > :07:29.But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

:07:30. > :07:33.the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

:07:34. > :07:36.Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

:07:37. > :07:41.a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

:07:42. > :07:46.But remember those numbers, they're important.

:07:47. > :07:49.On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

:07:50. > :07:52.been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

:07:53. > :07:57.I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

:07:58. > :07:59.on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

:08:00. > :08:04.And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

:08:05. > :08:11.the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

:08:12. > :08:16.When the government was criticised for reeling back

:08:17. > :08:20.from when and what it would offer a vote on.

:08:21. > :08:22.The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

:08:23. > :08:30.And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

:08:31. > :08:33.of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

:08:34. > :08:37.The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

:08:38. > :08:41.Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

:08:42. > :08:44.the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

:08:45. > :08:50.But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

:08:51. > :08:52.Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

:08:53. > :08:56.On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

:08:57. > :08:58.At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

:08:59. > :09:02.Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

:09:03. > :09:09.If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

:09:10. > :09:14.Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

:09:15. > :09:21.So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

:09:22. > :09:24.What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

:09:25. > :09:27.I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

:09:28. > :09:30.This building is a really important building.

:09:31. > :09:31.It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

:09:32. > :09:35.And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

:09:36. > :09:42.But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

:09:43. > :09:49.vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

:09:50. > :09:50.It was already said about David Jones.

:09:51. > :09:52.It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

:09:53. > :09:57.I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

:09:58. > :10:00.through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

:10:01. > :10:05.We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

:10:06. > :10:08.One said the situation was sad and depressing.

:10:09. > :10:11.The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

:10:12. > :10:18.A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

:10:19. > :10:22.of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

:10:23. > :10:24.But that its position was unlikely to change.

:10:25. > :10:27.And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

:10:28. > :10:34.That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

:10:35. > :10:37.round would look silly if they did, this time.

:10:38. > :10:41.It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

:10:42. > :10:44.about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

:10:45. > :10:48.last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

:10:49. > :10:51.There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

:10:52. > :10:53.Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

:10:54. > :10:57.rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

:10:58. > :10:59.The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

:11:00. > :11:02.that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

:11:03. > :11:06.If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

:11:07. > :11:08.Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

:11:09. > :11:11.it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

:11:12. > :11:15.have already indicated they won't block it again.

:11:16. > :11:18.It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

:11:19. > :11:22.would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

:11:23. > :11:24.Her own deadline was the end of this month.

:11:25. > :11:30.But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

:11:31. > :11:33.We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

:11:34. > :11:36.She's previously voted against the government on the question

:11:37. > :11:42.of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

:11:43. > :11:48.Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

:11:49. > :11:52.what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

:11:53. > :11:57.vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

:11:58. > :12:00.for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

:12:01. > :12:06.Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

:12:07. > :12:10.accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

:12:11. > :12:14.think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

:12:15. > :12:18.that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

:12:19. > :12:23.event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

:12:24. > :12:27.in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

:12:28. > :12:31.means through your elected representatives, the people of this

:12:32. > :12:36.country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

:12:37. > :12:38.get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

:12:39. > :12:43.Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

:12:44. > :12:50.want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

:12:51. > :12:54.They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

:12:55. > :13:00.he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

:13:01. > :13:07.to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

:13:08. > :13:11.on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

:13:12. > :13:14.have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

:13:15. > :13:19.will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

:13:20. > :13:22.what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

:13:23. > :13:26.which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

:13:27. > :13:32.said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

:13:33. > :13:36.don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

:13:37. > :13:40.matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

:13:41. > :13:43.if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

:13:44. > :13:50.there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

:13:51. > :13:53.vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

:13:54. > :13:59.what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

:14:00. > :14:02.Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

:14:03. > :14:05.with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

:14:06. > :14:09.which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

:14:10. > :14:14.speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

:14:15. > :14:17.I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

:14:18. > :14:25.about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

:14:26. > :14:27.amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

:14:28. > :14:30.call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

:14:31. > :14:33.agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

:14:34. > :14:37.Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

:14:38. > :14:42.Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

:14:43. > :14:46.deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

:14:47. > :14:50.complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

:14:51. > :14:55.you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:56. > :14:59.process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

:15:00. > :15:03.from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

:15:04. > :15:11.and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

:15:12. > :15:14.the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

:15:15. > :15:17.WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

:15:18. > :15:22.might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

:15:23. > :15:24.government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

:15:25. > :15:35.is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

:15:36. > :15:40.asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

:15:41. > :15:46.ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

:15:47. > :15:50.jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

:15:51. > :15:56.and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

:15:57. > :16:00.not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

:16:01. > :16:07.have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

:16:08. > :16:11.WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

:16:12. > :16:17.what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

:16:18. > :16:22.tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

:16:23. > :16:26.either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

:16:27. > :16:31.I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

:16:32. > :16:34.likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

:16:35. > :16:38.clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

:16:39. > :16:42.has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

:16:43. > :16:48.with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

:16:49. > :16:54.Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:55. > :16:59.there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

:17:00. > :17:07.not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

:17:08. > :17:11.like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:12. > :17:16.but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

:17:17. > :17:22.uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

:17:23. > :17:26.country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:27. > :17:29.an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:30. > :17:35.frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

:17:36. > :17:40.of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

:17:41. > :17:43.voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

:17:44. > :17:45.ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

:17:46. > :17:57.and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

:17:58. > :18:01.the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

:18:02. > :18:05.complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

:18:06. > :18:09.triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

:18:10. > :18:14.not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

:18:15. > :18:17.summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

:18:18. > :18:22.give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

:18:23. > :18:27.what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:28. > :18:31.under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:32. > :18:36.Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:37. > :18:40.in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

:18:41. > :18:44.biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:45. > :18:49.in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:50. > :18:54.could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:55. > :18:57.approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:58. > :19:02.Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:19:03. > :19:07.to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:08. > :19:10.much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:11. > :19:15.come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:16. > :19:22.ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:23. > :19:25.different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:26. > :19:33.adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:34. > :19:39.Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:40. > :19:44.reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:45. > :19:47.performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:48. > :19:54.heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

:19:55. > :20:00.am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:20:01. > :20:04.described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:05. > :20:10.around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:11. > :20:18.that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:19. > :20:24.voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:25. > :20:28.billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:29. > :20:33.do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:34. > :20:40.Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:41. > :20:46.commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

:20:47. > :20:51.frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:52. > :20:56.accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

:20:57. > :20:59.have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:21:00. > :21:05.of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

:21:06. > :21:11.transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:12. > :21:15.divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

:21:16. > :21:20.the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

:21:21. > :21:27.We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:28. > :21:32.what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:33. > :21:36.about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:37. > :21:41.expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:42. > :21:46.government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:47. > :21:49.parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:50. > :21:55.election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:56. > :21:59.two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:22:00. > :22:04.better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

:22:05. > :22:07.regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

:22:08. > :22:14.would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:15. > :22:21.negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:22. > :22:26.this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:27. > :22:31.police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:32. > :22:36.seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:37. > :22:39.the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:40. > :22:46.aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:47. > :22:52.dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:53. > :22:58.whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:59. > :23:05.wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:23:06. > :23:12.in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:13. > :23:17.done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:18. > :23:24.about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:25. > :23:28.evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:29. > :23:34.making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:35. > :23:41.other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:42. > :23:45.result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:46. > :23:50.fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:51. > :23:56.probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:57. > :24:00.eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:24:01. > :24:03.is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:04. > :24:09.to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:10. > :24:13.of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:14. > :24:18.Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:19. > :24:22.whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:23. > :24:27.general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:28. > :24:31.The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:32. > :24:39.than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:40. > :24:43.unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:44. > :24:48.be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:49. > :24:54.more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:55. > :24:58.billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:59. > :25:02.Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:25:03. > :25:07.money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:08. > :25:12.crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:13. > :25:18.six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:19. > :25:22.the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:23. > :25:27.months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:28. > :25:32.people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:33. > :25:35.it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:36. > :25:40.happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:41. > :25:45.bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:46. > :25:50.cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:51. > :25:56.process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:57. > :26:00.fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:26:01. > :26:08.someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:09. > :26:13.It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:14. > :26:16.with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:17. > :26:21.market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:22. > :26:25.with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:26. > :26:34.a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:35. > :26:35.interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:36. > :26:40.than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:41. > :26:42.budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:43. > :26:48.affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:49. > :26:50.to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:51. > :26:53.in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:54. > :27:01.as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:27:02. > :27:03.more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:04. > :27:06.on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:07. > :27:09.a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:10. > :27:16.from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:17. > :27:20.and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:21. > :27:24.more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:25. > :27:30.with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:31. > :27:33.voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:34. > :27:34.in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:35. > :27:40.Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:41. > :27:43."no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:44. > :27:45.said the government One of the first things I did

:27:46. > :27:52.as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:53. > :27:55.and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:56. > :27:58.and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:59. > :28:01.at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:28:02. > :28:03.all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:04. > :28:08.be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:09. > :28:12.to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:13. > :28:15.there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:16. > :28:28.a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:29. > :28:33.the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:34. > :28:37.the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:38. > :28:41.commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:42. > :28:47.are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:48. > :28:52.what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:53. > :28:56.quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:57. > :28:59.decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:29:00. > :29:08.fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:09. > :29:10.will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:11. > :29:17.particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:18. > :29:22.general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:23. > :29:27.self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:28. > :29:31.are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:32. > :29:36.McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:37. > :29:40.parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:41. > :29:44.rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:45. > :29:49.people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:50. > :29:52.rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:53. > :29:57.economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:58. > :30:03.is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:30:04. > :30:07.not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:08. > :30:11.base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:12. > :30:18.is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:19. > :30:23.said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:24. > :30:29.politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:30. > :30:32.this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:33. > :30:38.you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:39. > :30:41.Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:42. > :30:44.tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:45. > :30:54.I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:55. > :30:58.people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:59. > :31:01.real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:31:02. > :31:05.they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:06. > :31:08.politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:09. > :31:10.turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:11. > :31:18.women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:19. > :31:22.the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:23. > :31:27.self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:28. > :31:31.tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:32. > :31:36.it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:37. > :31:43.know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:44. > :31:45.flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:46. > :31:49.enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:50. > :31:54.third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:55. > :31:56.like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:57. > :32:01.don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:32:02. > :32:05.And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:06. > :32:09.people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:10. > :32:13.people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:14. > :32:19.self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:20. > :32:23.tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:24. > :32:27.?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:28. > :32:32.If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:33. > :32:38.between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:39. > :32:42.employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:43. > :32:51.as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:52. > :32:55.the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:56. > :32:59.that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:33:00. > :33:03.We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:04. > :33:07.matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:08. > :33:11.self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:12. > :33:20.who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:21. > :33:23.side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:24. > :33:28.technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:29. > :33:32.taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:33. > :33:34.part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:35. > :33:40.models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:41. > :33:44.fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:45. > :33:46.tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:47. > :33:48.Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:49. > :33:53.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:54. > :33:57.we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:58. > :34:13.of Donald Trump's allegation Hello, welcome to Sunday Politics

:34:14. > :34:15.East, I'm Stuart White. Later in the programme,

:34:16. > :34:18.how they do it in Germany where they have had elected

:34:19. > :34:20.mayors since the 1950s. If you're not competing

:34:21. > :34:27.on this international Well, in the studio this week,

:34:28. > :34:38.Norman Lamb, the Lib Dem MP for North Norfolk and Richard Bacon,

:34:39. > :34:40.the Conservative MP But let's start with the budget

:34:41. > :34:44.and some new investment We have been told to expect

:34:45. > :34:50.a share of the ?270 million announced for science and research

:34:51. > :34:56.and the ?300 million set aside to encourage the brightest and best

:34:57. > :34:59.to study at our universities. But the big news was

:35:00. > :35:04.?59 million in new money for our part of

:35:05. > :35:06.the Midlands engine. A number of projects

:35:07. > :35:08.in Northamptonshire get some of the money,

:35:09. > :35:12.including a new driving emissions There's also money for several

:35:13. > :35:16.long-awaited road schemes and for developing

:35:17. > :35:20.the cultural quarter in Luton. If you look around the whole

:35:21. > :35:24.area there, we have recently done all the

:35:25. > :35:33.station up and we have come down and done all

:35:34. > :35:38.area around the cultural quarter, done up, we launched it last year

:35:39. > :35:42.and the plan is to do up that entire area and make it a cultural

:35:43. > :35:46.This comes on top of ?206 million, investment through previous

:35:47. > :35:49.growth deals into the south east Midlands and Northamptonshire area.

:35:50. > :35:52.A further 59 million will enable us to deliver the infrastructure that

:35:53. > :35:56.There will also be a ?300 million fund to help companies with

:35:57. > :35:57.the increase in business rates, ?100 million

:35:58. > :36:06.the pressures in A and ?2 billion to help councils with social care.

:36:07. > :36:09.1 billion now, the rest over the next three years.

:36:10. > :36:18.And controversially, he is paying for

:36:19. > :36:21.some of that by increasing national insurance contributions by the

:36:22. > :36:24.It's not acceptable, this change affects those ordinary

:36:25. > :36:27.working families who have taken the risk of setting up a small

:36:28. > :36:28.business and who many of which employ apprentices

:36:29. > :36:30.and are the backbone of our

:36:31. > :36:33.economy and it just makes them feel that we have broken our promise.

:36:34. > :36:35.It's not acceptable, it cannot be allowed to proceed.

:36:36. > :36:39.The reason the Chancellor has given the increase is

:36:40. > :36:42.self-employed people overall pay less tax than those who are

:36:43. > :36:45.And this was a budget about fairness and the overall point

:36:46. > :36:49.that he made was that it is not fair the self-employed people are paying

:36:50. > :36:57.less than employed people for the same money that they own.

:36:58. > :37:00.Of all the figures that the Chancellor

:37:01. > :37:01.announced today, one of the most striking

:37:02. > :37:03.was the sheer number of

:37:04. > :37:05.additional elderly people in the country who require social care.

:37:06. > :37:07.And the demographics of the country, that

:37:08. > :37:12.number is just going to go up and up.

:37:13. > :37:16.So I think it was right to give an increase in funding for the next

:37:17. > :37:17.three years to meet the immediate pressures.

:37:18. > :37:20.A small amount of money for social care, ?1 billion when ?5

:37:21. > :37:23.billion has been taken out over the last four

:37:24. > :37:30.Anything is welcome but this is a sticking plaster for a much,

:37:31. > :37:31.much more serious problem and I think

:37:32. > :37:34.many of us were hoping that this was the opportunity,

:37:35. > :37:36.given that he said nothing about it back in November,

:37:37. > :37:39.to really, really do something substantial to make real change.

:37:40. > :37:42.This isn't going to solve the problem, which is just going to go

:37:43. > :37:45.So, Norman Lamb, a sticking plaster, not

:37:46. > :37:48.Yeah, we lurch from one crisis to another.

:37:49. > :37:51.I mean, if the truth be known, no political party

:37:52. > :37:54.has got a solution for the NHS and the care system.

:37:55. > :37:56.It is not sustainable in the way we are

:37:57. > :37:59.But you would know that from having been a

:38:00. > :38:04.I don't think it's really acceptable that we

:38:05. > :38:08.have now over a million older people across our country who have care

:38:09. > :38:12.And, of course, the consequences of that is

:38:13. > :38:14.that they end up in hospital unnecessarily which is disastrous

:38:15. > :38:21.for them and it creates an extra burden on the NHS.

:38:22. > :38:23.So, it is for that reason that I have brought together

:38:24. > :38:27.ten Conservative MPs, ten Labour MPs, slightly less Lib Dem MPs,

:38:28. > :38:30.and together we called on the Prime Minister to set up

:38:31. > :38:32.what we are calling an NHS and care convention

:38:33. > :38:35.to engage with the public in a serious, mature debate

:38:36. > :38:37.about how we fund a modern and effective health

:38:38. > :38:51.The increase in the National Minimum Wage will cost 900 million

:38:52. > :38:53.this year so that leaves a million, 100 million.

:38:54. > :39:00.It is completely inadequate and you'll

:39:01. > :39:01.-- it'll actually, because the health foundation,

:39:02. > :39:09.organisation says the gap is about ?2 billion,

:39:10. > :39:11.the net effect of this will actually be that there will be

:39:12. > :39:15.more older people in the coming year without care needs met who will end

:39:16. > :39:18.It's a disaster and the government needs to

:39:19. > :39:20.step up to the plate and do something about it.

:39:21. > :39:22.But they don't have the money, do they?

:39:23. > :39:26.The Chancellor has announced an extra ?2 billion.

:39:27. > :39:28.Now, people can argue about the amount of

:39:29. > :39:34.And the first billion comes in in the first year.

:39:35. > :39:37.But the point is this, at the end of the

:39:38. > :39:40.day, Norman is right that we have a big problem that no

:39:41. > :39:42.political party has solved about care and the health service.

:39:43. > :39:45.Every night in the Norfolk and Norwich, there are between 50

:39:46. > :39:47.and 80 patients who shouldn't be there costing ?303 each.

:39:48. > :39:50.That's just one Acute Hospital in one part of our county, that's

:39:51. > :39:53.probably six to ?8 billion a year, the same is true elsewhere in the

:39:54. > :39:57.But they are turning up there because they can't get help

:39:58. > :40:01.I accept that completely and that is why we have got to have a

:40:02. > :40:03.much more integrated and holistic system.

:40:04. > :40:08.Everybody agrees with that but nobody does it though, do they?

:40:09. > :40:12.If they look at the way they do it in Northumbria, NHS adult

:40:13. > :40:16.services, adult social services run by NHS Northumbria and they have

:40:17. > :40:18.zero delayed discharge because they manage and plan it better.

:40:19. > :40:20.Some of it is about money but it isn't all

:40:21. > :40:24.about money, it is about running it much, much better and much, much

:40:25. > :40:31.It's both extra money and better organisation.

:40:32. > :40:33.Let's talk about this breaking the manifesto

:40:34. > :40:34.pledge over national insurance as well.

:40:35. > :40:38.That is the other one that people seem to be getting very hot about.

:40:39. > :40:40.Well, this is the newspapers, one of my colleagues...

:40:41. > :40:44.I mean, we didn't make a manifesto pledge to put ?2 billion

:40:45. > :40:48.extra into social care but we have done it and the money has to be

:40:49. > :40:52.I'm not in the slightest bit worried about this.

:40:53. > :40:54.Circumstances change and you have to change things.

:40:55. > :40:56.The fact is that the public are very good at demanding

:40:57. > :40:59.what they have to recognise, and I applaud the

:41:00. > :41:02.Chancellor for this, is if you're going to have to have extra

:41:03. > :41:05.spending, it needs to be paid for and it has

:41:06. > :41:10.and this Chancellor has refused to do that

:41:11. > :41:14.Don't we say when we get a pledge, a pledge is a pledge and

:41:15. > :41:17.actually you should have planned for all of those other things

:41:18. > :41:20.Well, we knew exactly what was going to happen in health

:41:21. > :41:24.Norman, Norman, one day I'm going to have a chance to

:41:25. > :41:28.I know, normally in the House of Commons you

:41:29. > :41:38.don't let me do that but on this occasion, you are going to.

:41:39. > :41:39.You can't prepare for everything, you

:41:40. > :41:43.Things change, circumstances change, people's demands change and in a

:41:44. > :41:44.democracy you have to respond to that.

:41:45. > :41:47.The fact is, when you have people setting up businesses clearly

:41:48. > :41:50.for tax purposes, except that not everybody does that, but that has

:41:51. > :41:52.been an increasing trend, particularly among the higher paid,

:41:53. > :41:56.it is right if you're doing the same work at the same page, you should be

:41:57. > :42:03.Well, look, my party suffered as a result of making a pledge which

:42:04. > :42:06.we didn't keep and we have learned the lesson from that.

:42:07. > :42:08.People expect when you say in an election...

:42:09. > :42:09.They are different, the pledges, though,

:42:10. > :42:19.If you say in an election campaign, there

:42:20. > :42:21.will be no increase in tax, in national

:42:22. > :42:22.insurance or in VAT, people

:42:23. > :42:25.understand that that is what you mean.

:42:26. > :42:27.We made a mistake and we have learned the lesson from that.

:42:28. > :42:29.But the Conservatives have failed again.

:42:30. > :42:34.That's the real lesson. from somewhere.

:42:35. > :42:36.We can't spend money unless we get it in.

:42:37. > :42:38.We totally agree with that you knew what was

:42:39. > :42:43.Two months from now, we will know the

:42:44. > :42:46.name of the first ever elected mayor but Cambridgeshire and Peterborough.

:42:47. > :42:48.Whoever wins will have powers over housing,

:42:49. > :42:52.But it still feels like small beer when you see how they do

:42:53. > :42:55.Tom Barton has been to Heidelberg in Germany, the twin city

:42:56. > :43:02.with Cambridge, to see how their mayor shapes up.

:43:03. > :43:05.Home to an ancient university visited by millions of

:43:06. > :43:09.tourists each year, one of Europe's scientific centres.

:43:10. > :43:12.It's easy to see why Heidelberg and Cambridge are

:43:13. > :43:21.For now though, there is one big difference.

:43:22. > :43:23.Key local decisions effecting the city and its

:43:24. > :43:26.surrounding area are taken by a directly elected mayor.

:43:27. > :43:32.It's a very powerful position and by having such a position, you

:43:33. > :43:35.really can change the city in this or this direction.

:43:36. > :43:37.Just like Cambridge, science and technology

:43:38. > :43:40.are major employers here, accounting for as many as six

:43:41. > :43:46.Key among those employers is the German Cancer Research

:43:47. > :43:50.Institute, two Noble Prizes have been awarded for work here and

:43:51. > :43:53.attracting that level of talent means ensuring Heidelberg is a good

:43:54. > :44:03.There are many issues we need to discuss with local

:44:04. > :44:09.government, including housing, being an attractive city for our

:44:10. > :44:12.scientists which come from all over the world and if we want to the best

:44:13. > :44:15.brains, and therefore the best city to have one elected mayor is very

:44:16. > :44:18.important for us because he needs to understand our needs because he

:44:19. > :44:23.If you want an idea of the sort of thing an

:44:24. > :44:25.elected mayor can achieve, just look at this.

:44:26. > :44:27.It's a brand-new district of new homes and high-tech office

:44:28. > :44:34.space that is being built on derelict railway line.

:44:35. > :44:39.Building here has been pushed through by

:44:40. > :44:42.Heidelberg's elected mayor and when it is finished, it should

:44:43. > :44:44.bring more than 7000 high-value jobs to the city.

:44:45. > :44:46.But there are also limits to what Heidelberg's mayor

:44:47. > :44:52.The current mayor wanted to build an extension to this

:44:53. > :44:55.historic theatre but local people objected, held a referendum and

:44:56. > :45:06.This local journalist says that shows how

:45:07. > :45:10.important it is to have checks and balances on the mayor's power.

:45:11. > :45:13.I think it is very important because the position of the mayor

:45:14. > :45:20.He is the head of the city administration that is 2000

:45:21. > :45:26.something people so that is a powerful complex and he's the only

:45:27. > :45:30.one in Heidelberg who can move things on his own, like one person.

:45:31. > :45:35.Heidelberg is home to Germany's oldest university, founded in 1386.

:45:36. > :45:39.Professor Michael Haus runs the politics department

:45:40. > :45:41.there and is an expert in local government.

:45:42. > :45:43.And he warns that mayoral systems can put

:45:44. > :45:47.too much power in the hands of one person.

:45:48. > :45:54.A directly elected mayor concentrates attention, of course he

:45:55. > :46:00.will try to put up his own agenda and push it through and so on.

:46:01. > :46:02.This, of course, can be perceived as a

:46:03. > :46:06.concentration of power at the expense of parties and party

:46:07. > :46:11.So what of the man who holds that power?

:46:12. > :46:14.At Heidelberg City Hall, I met up with the current mayor.

:46:15. > :46:20.Eckart Wurzner has held the office since 2006 and he is very

:46:21. > :46:24.clear that the city benefits from having a powerful mayor.

:46:25. > :46:30.You need the power, the thing about a position like my position,

:46:31. > :46:35.Otherwise you have a lot of political debate and very

:46:36. > :46:44.And today, you have to react faster than in the past.

:46:45. > :46:46.The thing about the digital New World,

:46:47. > :46:48.if you are not competing on

:46:49. > :46:55.Well, the idea of an elected mayor may be

:46:56. > :46:56.new to Cambridgeshire, it is

:46:57. > :47:06.a common form of local government elsewhere in Europe.

:47:07. > :47:09.And that means whoever wins May's election,

:47:10. > :47:12.there is lots to be learned from the experience of places like

:47:13. > :47:15.So, here in the studio, the ceremonial mayor

:47:16. > :47:18.So what does Wisbech want out of this?

:47:19. > :47:21.Well, basically, we want more money and more of a say in how that money

:47:22. > :47:25.And how confident are you that you will get that, then?

:47:26. > :47:27.Well, it is early days at the moment.

:47:28. > :47:28.We haven't actually got the elected mayor

:47:29. > :47:31.yet and the combined authority has just been set up.

:47:32. > :47:33.But I'm fairly confident that we will get what we

:47:34. > :47:37.And if you had more money, what would you spend it on?

:47:38. > :47:44.Well, the key things that Wisbech would

:47:45. > :47:47.really like to see is some major upgrades to the A47 and also a

:47:48. > :47:54.And they want to make you a garden town?

:47:55. > :47:57.Yes, that's building an extra 10,000 homes in Wisbech, with the

:47:58. > :48:00.So, if you don't get this, what will you do?

:48:01. > :48:04.I think it is a little early days to be asking that question at

:48:05. > :48:08.We don't even have the mayor in place just yet.

:48:09. > :48:12.But the people of Wisbech and of Fenland

:48:13. > :48:15.won't take it sitting down and we'll make sure our voice is heard.

:48:16. > :48:17.Do you think devolution is a good idea?

:48:18. > :48:19.I do, I mean, we are talking about an

:48:20. > :48:23.extra ?20 million per year for the next 30 years and I just

:48:24. > :48:24.want to make sure that Wisbech and Fenland

:48:25. > :48:30.Are we missing out in other parts of the

:48:31. > :48:33.region because we are not devolving, I'm thinking Norfolk and Suffolk

:48:34. > :48:41.I mean, I strongly favour devolving power, giving us in a sense control

:48:42. > :48:44.over our destiny and I think it is got to happen at some point

:48:45. > :48:47.and my worry is that we will be slightly left behind.

:48:48. > :48:49.This is happening all over the country and we are seeing

:48:50. > :48:54.now places like Greater Manchester taking greater control, getting a

:48:55. > :48:57.bit more control over the resource and more resource and making things

:48:58. > :49:00.happen and using the money more effectively.

:49:01. > :49:02.Richard Bacon, if you talk to anybody, they always say,

:49:03. > :49:05.yeah, I am in favour of devolution but not this devolution because it

:49:06. > :49:10.Yeah, I supported it, it wasn't perfect and

:49:11. > :49:13.I think the answer is not to support something only when it is perfect,

:49:14. > :49:18.it is to support something because in principle

:49:19. > :49:21.it is right and then tweek it until we get it better.

:49:22. > :49:27.We have in the county of Norfolk 414 councillors and that is just

:49:28. > :49:28.district and county, that excludes people

:49:29. > :49:35.It feels a little top-heavy and I think we need

:49:36. > :49:38.something that is leaner and faster and more responsive and can make

:49:39. > :49:41.decisions better and can be more responsive to people on the ground.

:49:42. > :49:44.I think if government is offering extra money, if the county is

:49:45. > :49:47.prepared to go down that route, then we have got to look at it seriously.

:49:48. > :49:50.I actually think it's going to come, I'm less pessimistic than Norman.

:49:51. > :49:53.We are missing out at the moment but I

:49:54. > :49:55.think it will come and I think there is an increasing recognition among

:49:56. > :49:57.my local government colleagues in the councils that

:49:58. > :49:59.in some shape or form, it will come.

:50:00. > :50:01.Everybody objects to the idea of the mayor.

:50:02. > :50:05.I don't think I would use the word mayor, it's a

:50:06. > :50:08.I know James Cartlidge, my colleague in South

:50:09. > :50:09.Suffolk, talks about the County Commissioner.

:50:10. > :50:13.The Isle of Wight had a governor until relatively recently.

:50:14. > :50:16.But the idea of a strong, elected, visible and sackable person who can

:50:17. > :50:18.get things done, I think is a very compelling...

:50:19. > :50:21.In the film, they say you need somebody like that to lead

:50:22. > :50:24.Yeah, and there's a real accountability.

:50:25. > :50:26.Everyone knows who is in charge and who is making

:50:27. > :50:30.And, you know, having, as Richard says, eight councils in

:50:31. > :50:32.Norfolk running local services is way over the top and massively

:50:33. > :50:37.And the public are paying for this through their tax, they have a right

:50:38. > :50:39.to expect better and I have been in meetings

:50:40. > :50:40.at the roadside when we are

:50:41. > :50:42.trying to get the speed limit change and two

:50:43. > :50:44.or three years later, there

:50:45. > :50:47.I yearn for a directly elected person who

:50:48. > :50:50.can say get this done, next Tuesday, I want the road man out there.

:50:51. > :50:54.Now that could happen, it does happen in

:50:55. > :50:57.other parts of the world and I think we deserve that here.

:50:58. > :50:58.Is this people defending their own little fiefdom

:50:59. > :51:02.or is it party politics or is it just that it is right?

:51:03. > :51:03.Well, there are definitely fiefdoms across

:51:04. > :51:06.Norfolk who don't want to give up on their little bit of power.

:51:07. > :51:08.There's also the sense that we are the

:51:09. > :51:15.most centralised of any western European country.

:51:16. > :51:18.Most of the money is raised nationally and that is where the

:51:19. > :51:24.power so that we have the power to raise as well.

:51:25. > :51:25.We are very different from Heidelberg, aren't we?

:51:26. > :51:29.Because that is virtually just around one big centre.

:51:30. > :51:31.Whereas we are spreading it across counties.

:51:32. > :51:32.We need a solution that's right for us

:51:33. > :51:34.and I actually think that the counties

:51:35. > :51:35.and the local areas, if you

:51:36. > :51:38.had powerful county committees and you had local councillors

:51:39. > :51:40.with local autonomy, they could actually see a

:51:41. > :51:42.benefit to them personally as elected local politicians with more

:51:43. > :51:44.ability to make real decisions that mattered.

:51:45. > :51:48.Often it is combined, it's in a small clique at the centre.

:51:49. > :51:52.I think this could actually work for the villages and the market

:51:53. > :51:54.towns and the parishes better than what

:51:55. > :51:57.And people identify with our county of Norfolk.

:51:58. > :51:59.It has a very strong identity there and I think

:52:00. > :52:08.unitary council which did everything in a locality with strong devolved

:52:09. > :52:10.power to local committees across Norfolk, then it

:52:11. > :52:13.We could use the available public money for running

:52:14. > :52:14.services rather than the bureaucracy.

:52:15. > :52:17.Gary, does that fill you with hope or concern?

:52:18. > :52:21.It fills me with hope, I think, yeah.

:52:22. > :52:23.I think this is going to turn out to be a

:52:24. > :52:26.good thing and I think that those councils who decided that they

:52:27. > :52:29.didn't want to be involved are properly going to end up

:52:30. > :52:37.And Norman of course is likely to be a candidate for Mayor of

:52:38. > :52:40.Cambridgeshire because as his majority goes down and down in North

:52:41. > :52:41.Norfolk, he's starting to look elsewhere.

:52:42. > :52:45.They have said it every election and it never works.

:52:46. > :52:47.Right, now for our round-up of the political week

:52:48. > :52:54.in 60 seconds with Deborah McGurran.

:52:55. > :52:57.Fears for the future of Vauxhall workers in Luton after the French

:52:58. > :53:02.car giant PSA announced it was to buy the company.

:53:03. > :53:04.But one of the town's MPs is relatively relaxed

:53:05. > :53:12.The reality is that Peugeot, Citroen have a big market in

:53:13. > :53:14.Britain, they wouldn't want to upset that market and having a

:53:15. > :53:17.manufacturing footprint here I think is a very important part of having

:53:18. > :53:21.Head teachers in Essex have written to their MPs criticising the

:53:22. > :53:23.Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond for his stance on school

:53:24. > :53:29.One of his sharpest critics is the current head

:53:30. > :53:34.You too can start at Shenfield High School

:53:35. > :53:37.and perhaps become Chancellor of the Exchequer but sadly

:53:38. > :53:39.Philip Hammond hasn't remembered that schools need

:53:40. > :53:46.Transport Secretary Chris Grayling extremely

:53:47. > :53:48.proud of the new investment announced in the budget, traffic

:53:49. > :53:54.This will smooth the flow of traffic through it,

:53:55. > :53:57.it will help the overall flow of traffic up the A11.

:53:58. > :54:00.It is one part of a programme of smaller

:54:01. > :54:05.big investment we are making on roads like the A47.

:54:06. > :54:08.And MEP Alex Mayer cooks up a storm as part of

:54:09. > :54:21.Richard Bacon, all the schools say they need the money.

:54:22. > :54:24.It is not right, is it, to put all the money into free schools?

:54:25. > :54:27.I think, I think it is true that there is a

:54:28. > :54:31.I've met with some of our own local headteachers, not just in my

:54:32. > :54:34.area but the association that represents them across Norfolk and

:54:35. > :54:36.I'm hoping to have meetings with ministers to discuss this in more

:54:37. > :54:39.detail, to draw their attention to the concerns of head teachers

:54:40. > :54:42.because it is not balanced at the moment and we need an adjustment.

:54:43. > :54:44.If you had those meetings, do they really listen?

:54:45. > :54:47.It depends who is in government at any

:54:48. > :54:57.So, in this case, I am hoping that they will, yes.

:54:58. > :55:01.There's extra money for a small cohort of

:55:02. > :55:07.Everyone else will lose out and it will be 8% less funding

:55:08. > :55:10.in real terms by 2020 per student and that will have real consequences

:55:11. > :55:14.approach, this return to grammar schools as well.

:55:15. > :55:16.I failed the 11 plus and I was condemned as a

:55:17. > :55:23.I think it is wholly inappropriate to make those

:55:24. > :55:26.judgments and we know that it has a disproportionate

:55:27. > :55:29.impact on children from lower income backgrounds.

:55:30. > :55:33.There is no evidence to support this at all.

:55:34. > :55:35.But, at the moment, people getting into schools because their

:55:36. > :55:44.parents move into houses near a good school...

:55:45. > :55:49.But, of course, what happens with grammar schools is that every

:55:50. > :55:51.child who have parents who can afford it,

:55:52. > :55:53.cram those children with the private tuition to get them

:55:54. > :55:59.I am, I went to a direct grant school and I think the problem

:56:00. > :56:01.with grammar schools, actually, you had a clip earlier on

:56:02. > :56:04.In Germany, they don't have this argument largely.

:56:05. > :56:06.They have a very stratified system with gymnasium.

:56:07. > :56:14.The famous grammar schools. They are all well resourced with good

:56:15. > :56:17.teaching that is appropriate for the students and the flexibility to move

:56:18. > :56:22.between the layers depending upon the aptitude and the talents of the

:56:23. > :56:26.child. That is what we need. Some people would say that you are an

:56:27. > :56:30.example of the fact that even if you do not pass the 11 plus, you can

:56:31. > :56:33.still do very well. I happen to be lucky enough to go to a new

:56:34. > :56:37.comprehensive that had arrived in the town. If I had been on the other

:56:38. > :56:41.side of the river, I would've gone to a secondary moderns. I would not

:56:42. > :56:46.have had the academics child and I do not want to to that. There is no

:56:47. > :56:49.evidence for this at all. We need a system that works there everyone.

:56:50. > :56:53.That deals with the intelligence and aptitude in run. Good. We get on

:56:54. > :56:59.quite well really. We really have to quite well really. We really have to

:57:00. > :57:01.end it there. Thank you very much indeed. That is all from us. You can

:57:02. > :57:04.watch the programme online through Now the government plans for new

:57:05. > :57:19.grammar schools. The Education Secretary

:57:20. > :57:21.Justine Greening was speaking to a conference

:57:22. > :57:23.of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite

:57:24. > :57:25.bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't

:57:26. > :57:32.allowed into the speech, but this was captured

:57:33. > :57:36.on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually

:57:37. > :57:39.for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children,

:57:40. > :57:43.that they have, they really do help them close

:57:44. > :57:46.the attainment gap. And at the same time

:57:47. > :57:48.we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice

:57:49. > :57:55.for their children and that those schools are often

:57:56. > :58:09.very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage

:58:10. > :58:14.for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers

:58:15. > :58:18.conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the

:58:19. > :58:24.problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar

:58:25. > :58:28.schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up

:58:29. > :58:33.in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying

:58:34. > :58:36.they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative

:58:37. > :58:40.formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what

:58:41. > :58:45.we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11

:58:46. > :58:50.plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the

:58:51. > :58:54.clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand

:58:55. > :58:57.scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade

:58:58. > :59:03.ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening

:59:04. > :59:06.is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit,

:59:07. > :59:11.the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more

:59:12. > :59:15.contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too

:59:16. > :59:19.busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of

:59:20. > :59:25.negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing.

:59:26. > :59:28.I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of

:59:29. > :59:33.contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock

:59:34. > :59:41.because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a

:59:42. > :59:47.supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They

:59:48. > :59:51.need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar

:59:52. > :59:57.area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based

:59:58. > :00:00.on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on

:00:01. > :00:06.sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other

:00:07. > :00:09.policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not

:00:10. > :00:14.sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out

:00:15. > :00:20.of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we

:00:21. > :00:23.should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward,

:00:24. > :00:27.this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children

:00:28. > :00:32.to get education at the highest level, education for academically

:00:33. > :00:36.bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa

:00:37. > :00:40.May administration that marks a government different from David

:00:41. > :00:42.Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is

:00:43. > :00:51.pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address

:00:52. > :00:55.concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and

:00:56. > :00:59.tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will

:01:00. > :01:03.probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form

:01:04. > :01:06.it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature

:01:07. > :01:09.policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first

:01:10. > :01:14.announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed

:01:15. > :01:19.and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been

:01:20. > :01:24.qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I

:01:25. > :01:28.disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you

:01:29. > :01:32.don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do

:01:33. > :01:36.that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a

:01:37. > :01:41.good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes

:01:42. > :01:44.very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. --

:01:45. > :01:46.I have been. Now, you may remember this time last

:01:47. > :01:49.week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US

:01:50. > :01:51.President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course,

:01:52. > :01:53.that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking

:01:54. > :01:57.that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting

:01:58. > :02:01.President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low",

:02:02. > :02:10.and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been

:02:11. > :02:14.pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have

:02:15. > :02:20.initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative

:02:21. > :02:23.MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been

:02:24. > :02:26.granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's

:02:27. > :02:33.campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins

:02:34. > :02:46.us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early

:02:47. > :02:49.November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor

:02:50. > :02:54.communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks.

:02:55. > :02:56.It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the

:02:57. > :03:06.existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one

:03:07. > :03:09.takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your

:03:10. > :03:13.characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report

:03:14. > :03:18.that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump

:03:19. > :03:22.tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a

:03:23. > :03:26.warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian

:03:27. > :03:33.banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context

:03:34. > :03:36.of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental

:03:37. > :03:42.collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to

:03:43. > :03:47.intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I

:03:48. > :03:51.just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now

:03:52. > :03:56.believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a

:03:57. > :04:00.wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out

:04:01. > :04:04.evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else

:04:05. > :04:07.reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have

:04:08. > :04:12.committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account.

:04:13. > :04:18.Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the

:04:19. > :04:22.question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant

:04:23. > :04:26.exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would

:04:27. > :04:31.be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America

:04:32. > :04:35.they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That

:04:36. > :04:39.is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are

:04:40. > :04:42.looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases

:04:43. > :04:49.brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated

:04:50. > :04:53.this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul

:04:54. > :04:56.Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources

:04:57. > :05:00.validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you

:05:01. > :05:04.would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in

:05:05. > :05:08.ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump

:05:09. > :05:12.campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians

:05:13. > :05:15.during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should

:05:16. > :05:21.be impeached. What evidence did you have?

:05:22. > :05:27.That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him

:05:28. > :05:29.saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the

:05:30. > :05:35.Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is,

:05:36. > :05:38.actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on

:05:39. > :05:42.Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media

:05:43. > :05:47.manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it

:05:48. > :05:51.happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in

:05:52. > :05:55.April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but

:05:56. > :05:59.the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an

:06:00. > :06:02.enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier

:06:03. > :06:10.which was included in an official report of the US intelligence

:06:11. > :06:13.committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard

:06:14. > :06:18.evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is

:06:19. > :06:21.doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence

:06:22. > :06:26.about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed

:06:27. > :06:33.that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way

:06:34. > :06:38.for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I

:06:39. > :06:42.haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish

:06:43. > :06:47.community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild

:06:48. > :06:50.conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times

:06:51. > :06:55.people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in

:06:56. > :06:59.twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew

:07:00. > :07:05.Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You

:07:06. > :07:09.said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you

:07:10. > :07:15.believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I

:07:16. > :07:19.know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered

:07:20. > :07:24.Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are

:07:25. > :07:28.fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I

:07:29. > :07:37.may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting,

:07:38. > :07:44.as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They

:07:45. > :07:50.believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism.

:07:51. > :07:53.Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it

:07:54. > :07:58.is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should

:07:59. > :08:03.believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am

:08:04. > :08:07.making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief.

:08:08. > :08:12.Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be

:08:13. > :08:19.a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do

:08:20. > :08:22.you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that

:08:23. > :08:28.President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at

:08:29. > :08:33.two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the

:08:34. > :08:36.same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times

:08:37. > :08:46.here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where

:08:47. > :08:50.you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am

:08:51. > :08:56.describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your

:08:57. > :08:59.viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with

:09:00. > :09:02.unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and

:09:03. > :09:06.absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have

:09:07. > :09:10.ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very

:09:11. > :09:16.hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That

:09:17. > :09:21.is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up

:09:22. > :09:25.early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary

:09:26. > :09:29.superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't

:09:30. > :09:34.think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on

:09:35. > :09:38.that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own

:09:39. > :09:39.minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop

:09:40. > :09:47.the killing! Will it get through at the

:09:48. > :09:51.government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way

:09:52. > :09:55.that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and

:09:56. > :09:59.forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The

:10:00. > :10:02.fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't

:10:03. > :10:06.like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday,

:10:07. > :10:09.they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on

:10:10. > :10:14.the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The

:10:15. > :10:18.negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation

:10:19. > :10:22.process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch

:10:23. > :10:27.this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the

:10:28. > :10:31.Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it

:10:32. > :10:36.was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom

:10:37. > :10:40.on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question

:10:41. > :10:46.-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately

:10:47. > :10:49.organising. I want us to get on with the deals.

:10:50. > :10:56.Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going

:10:57. > :11:00.to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand

:11:01. > :11:05.for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net

:11:06. > :11:12.costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will

:11:13. > :11:16.be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the

:11:17. > :11:22.EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal

:11:23. > :11:25.rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite

:11:26. > :11:29.quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they

:11:30. > :11:32.will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree

:11:33. > :11:37.the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill.

:11:38. > :11:42.David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the

:11:43. > :11:47.size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good

:11:48. > :11:50.the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights

:11:51. > :11:54.is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it

:11:55. > :11:58.is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists.

:11:59. > :12:01.Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly

:12:02. > :12:06.quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all

:12:07. > :12:08.about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the

:12:09. > :12:12.governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so

:12:13. > :12:15.unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of

:12:16. > :12:21.the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while

:12:22. > :12:25.public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic

:12:26. > :12:28.direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer

:12:29. > :12:32.they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public

:12:33. > :12:36.resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it,

:12:37. > :12:40.the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and

:12:41. > :12:44.think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with

:12:45. > :12:48.the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals

:12:49. > :12:53.he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed

:12:54. > :12:57.individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up.

:12:58. > :13:02.That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being

:13:03. > :13:07.done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect

:13:08. > :13:11.your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds

:13:12. > :13:17.are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the

:13:18. > :13:21.House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early

:13:22. > :13:26.election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us!

:13:27. > :13:29.We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like

:13:30. > :13:31.being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same

:13:32. > :13:34.place. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:35. > :13:38.it's the Sunday Politics.