:00:42. > :00:46.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:47. > :00:48.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:49. > :00:50.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:51. > :00:54.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:55. > :00:57.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:58. > :01:03.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:04. > :01:07.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:08. > :01:11.done" - we'll speak to him and the party's
:01:12. > :01:13.Here in the east, shock and disappointment in Clacton
:01:14. > :01:19.after the local MP resigns from UKIP, and says he will be
:01:20. > :01:32.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:33. > :01:34.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:35. > :01:40.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:41. > :01:42.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:43. > :01:46.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:47. > :01:49.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:50. > :01:52.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:53. > :01:54.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:55. > :01:57.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:58. > :02:00.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:02:01. > :02:04.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:05. > :02:06.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:07. > :02:14.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:15. > :02:22.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:23. > :02:26.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:27. > :02:30.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:31. > :02:34.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:35. > :02:37.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:38. > :02:41.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:42. > :02:45.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:46. > :02:52.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:53. > :02:55.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:56. > :03:00.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:03:01. > :03:04.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:05. > :03:08.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:09. > :03:12.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:13. > :03:18.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:19. > :03:21.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:22. > :03:26.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:27. > :03:31.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:32. > :03:34.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:35. > :03:39.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:40. > :03:44.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:45. > :03:48.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:49. > :03:53.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:54. > :03:58.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:03:59. > :04:02.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:03. > :04:08.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:09. > :04:14.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:15. > :04:19.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:20. > :04:23.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:24. > :04:26.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:27. > :04:33.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:34. > :04:37.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:38. > :04:41.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:42. > :04:45.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:46. > :04:48.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:49. > :04:51.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:52. > :04:54.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:55. > :04:59.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:05:00. > :05:04.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:05. > :05:07.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:08. > :05:13.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:14. > :05:17.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:18. > :05:28.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:29. > :05:33.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:34. > :05:35."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:36. > :05:38.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:39. > :05:41.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:42. > :05:44.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:45. > :05:47.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:48. > :05:50.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:51. > :05:57.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:58. > :06:03.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:04. > :06:05.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:06. > :06:08.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:09. > :06:11.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:12. > :06:15.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:16. > :06:24.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:25. > :06:26.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:27. > :06:28.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:29. > :06:30.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:31. > :06:34.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:35. > :06:36.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:37. > :06:40.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:41. > :06:48...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:49. > :06:51.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:52. > :06:56.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:57. > :07:04.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:05. > :07:07.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:08. > :07:11.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:12. > :07:15.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:16. > :07:19.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:20. > :07:23.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:24. > :07:27.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:28. > :07:31.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:32. > :07:39.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:40. > :07:41.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:42. > :07:46.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:47. > :07:50.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:51. > :07:54.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:55. > :07:59.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:08:00. > :08:03.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:04. > :08:07.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:08. > :08:12.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:13. > :08:17.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:18. > :08:23.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:24. > :08:27.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:28. > :08:31.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:32. > :08:34.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:35. > :08:38.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:39. > :08:42.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:43. > :08:46.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:47. > :08:50.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:51. > :08:55.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:56. > :09:00.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:09:01. > :09:05.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:06. > :09:10.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:11. > :09:15.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:16. > :09:20.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:21. > :09:24.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:25. > :09:29.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:30. > :09:35.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:36. > :09:38.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:39. > :09:43.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:44. > :09:47.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:48. > :09:52.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:53. > :09:56.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:57. > :10:00.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:10:01. > :10:05.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:06. > :10:09.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:10. > :10:12.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:13. > :10:17.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:18. > :10:22.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:23. > :10:26.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:27. > :10:29.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:30. > :10:36.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:37. > :10:40.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:41. > :10:44.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:45. > :10:48.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:49. > :10:51.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:52. > :10:55.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:56. > :10:59.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:11:00. > :11:04.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:05. > :11:08.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:09. > :11:11.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:12. > :11:14.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:15. > :11:22.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:23. > :11:27.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:28. > :11:35.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:36. > :11:38.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:39. > :11:42.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:43. > :11:48.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:49. > :11:50.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:51. > :11:55.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:56. > :11:57.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:58. > :12:00.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:12:01. > :12:07.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:08. > :12:10.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:11. > :12:19.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:20. > :12:24.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:25. > :12:27.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:28. > :12:34.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:35. > :12:40.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:41. > :12:48.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:49. > :12:51.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:52. > :12:54.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:55. > :12:58.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:12:59. > :13:03.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:04. > :13:07.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:08. > :13:10.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:11. > :13:16.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:17. > :13:19.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:20. > :13:25.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:26. > :13:30.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:31. > :13:37.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:38. > :13:41.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:42. > :13:46.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:47. > :13:49.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:50. > :13:55.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:56. > :14:00.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:14:01. > :14:05.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:06. > :14:11.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:12. > :14:15.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:16. > :14:19.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:20. > :14:22.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:23. > :14:28.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:29. > :14:32.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:33. > :14:37.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:38. > :14:43.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:44. > :14:47.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:48. > :14:54.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:55. > :15:00.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:15:01. > :15:04.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:05. > :15:06.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:07. > :15:12.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:13. > :15:18.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:19. > :15:22.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:23. > :15:28.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:29. > :15:32.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:33. > :15:37.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:38. > :15:41.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:42. > :15:45.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:46. > :15:49.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:50. > :15:54.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:55. > :15:57.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:58. > :16:01.changes need to be made in light of that.
:16:02. > :16:10.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:11. > :16:14.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:15. > :16:19.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:20. > :16:23.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:24. > :16:28.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:29. > :16:34.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:35. > :16:38.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:39. > :16:48.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:49. > :16:52.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:53. > :17:01.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:17:02. > :17:07.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:08. > :17:12.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:13. > :17:16.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:17. > :17:21.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:22. > :17:24.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:25. > :17:31.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:32. > :17:38.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:39. > :17:42.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:43. > :17:48.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:49. > :17:52.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:53. > :17:59.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:18:00. > :18:03.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:04. > :18:16.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:17. > :18:21.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:22. > :18:24.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:25. > :18:28.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:29. > :18:32.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:33. > :18:39.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:40. > :18:42.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:43. > :18:48.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:49. > :18:52.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:53. > :18:56.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:57. > :19:00.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:19:01. > :19:05.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:06. > :19:10.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:11. > :19:15.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:16. > :19:20.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:21. > :19:24.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:25. > :19:29.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:30. > :19:36.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:37. > :19:41.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:42. > :19:46.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:47. > :19:52.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:53. > :19:56.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:57. > :20:04.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:05. > :20:08.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:09. > :20:14.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:15. > :20:17.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:18. > :20:23.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:24. > :20:27.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:28. > :20:34.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:35. > :20:39.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:40. > :20:43.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:44. > :20:48.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:49. > :20:53.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:54. > :20:56.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:57. > :21:01.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:21:02. > :21:03.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:04. > :21:20.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:21. > :21:23.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:24. > :21:26.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:27. > :21:31.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:32. > :21:36.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:37. > :21:40.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:41. > :21:46.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:47. > :21:51.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:52. > :21:55.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:56. > :22:03.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:04. > :22:08.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:09. > :22:13.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:14. > :22:20.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:21. > :22:25.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:26. > :22:31.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:32. > :22:36.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:37. > :22:43.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:44. > :22:48.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:49. > :22:51.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:52. > :23:02.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:03. > :23:08.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:09. > :23:12.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:13. > :23:17.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:18. > :23:21.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:22. > :23:25.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:26. > :23:30.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:31. > :23:35.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:36. > :23:40.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:41. > :23:45.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:46. > :23:51.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:52. > :23:58.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:23:59. > :24:03.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:04. > :24:09.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:10. > :24:17.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:18. > :24:21.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:22. > :24:32.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:33. > :24:38.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:39. > :24:42.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:43. > :24:45.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:46. > :24:51.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:52. > :24:56.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:57. > :25:00.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:25:01. > :25:04.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:05. > :25:10.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:11. > :25:13.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:14. > :25:19.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:20. > :25:25.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:26. > :25:26.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:27. > :25:29.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:30. > :25:31.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:32. > :25:32.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:33. > :25:35.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:36. > :25:36.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:37. > :25:39."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:40. > :25:43.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:44. > :25:45.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:46. > :25:50.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:51. > :25:53.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:54. > :25:59.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:26:00. > :26:01.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:26:02. > :26:03.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:04. > :26:05.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:06. > :26:13.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:14. > :26:15.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:16. > :26:18.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:19. > :26:21.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:22. > :26:23.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:24. > :26:26.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:27. > :26:29."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:30. > :26:38.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:39. > :26:44.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:45. > :26:54.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:55. > :27:00.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:27:01. > :27:05.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:06. > :27:09.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:10. > :27:13.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:14. > :27:17.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:18. > :27:21.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:22. > :27:25.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:26. > :27:32.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:33. > :27:35.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:36. > :27:39.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:40. > :27:42.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:43. > :27:46.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:47. > :27:53.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:54. > :27:58.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:27:59. > :28:02.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:03. > :28:10.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:11. > :28:14.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:15. > :28:22.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:23. > :28:27.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:28. > :28:32.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:33. > :28:37.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:38. > :28:45.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:46. > :29:01.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:29:02. > :29:05.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:06. > :29:09.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:10. > :29:13.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:14. > :29:18.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:19. > :29:23.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:24. > :29:27.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:28. > :29:32.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:33. > :29:38.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:39. > :29:41.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:42. > :29:45.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:46. > :29:51.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:52. > :29:55.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:56. > :30:02.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:03. > :30:05.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:06. > :30:12.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:13. > :30:16.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:17. > :30:22.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:23. > :30:25.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:26. > :30:35.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:36. > :30:41.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:42. > :30:44.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:45. > :30:50.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:51. > :30:54.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:55. > :30:58.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:30:59. > :31:03.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:04. > :31:08.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:09. > :31:11.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:12. > :31:28.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:29. > :31:30.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:31. > :31:32.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:33. > :31:35.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:36. > :31:38.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:39. > :31:41.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:42. > :31:45.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:46. > :31:49.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:50. > :31:53.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:54. > :31:57.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:58. > :32:04.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:05. > :32:06.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:07. > :32:10.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:11. > :32:17.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:18. > :32:23.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:24. > :32:30.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:31. > :32:33.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:34. > :32:38.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:39. > :32:42.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:43. > :32:46.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:47. > :32:50.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:51. > :32:56.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:57. > :32:59.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:33:00. > :33:08.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:09. > :33:12.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:13. > :33:16.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:17. > :33:20.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:21. > :33:27.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:28. > :33:29.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:30. > :33:35.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:36. > :33:40.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:41. > :33:45.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:46. > :33:52.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:53. > :33:57.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:58. > :34:01.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:34:02. > :34:05.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:06. > :34:10.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:11. > :34:13.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:14. > :34:17.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:18. > :34:22.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:23. > :34:27.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:28. > :34:32.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:33. > :34:37.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:38. > :34:40.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:41. > :34:44.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:45. > :34:48.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:49. > :34:54.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:55. > :35:02.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:03. > :35:04.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:05. > :35:08.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:09. > :35:12.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:13. > :35:17.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:18. > :35:21.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:22. > :35:25.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:26. > :35:31.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:32. > :35:37.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:38. > :35:41.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:42. > :35:44.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:45. > :35:50.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:51. > :35:54.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:55. > :35:58.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:35:59. > :36:02.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:03. > :36:06.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:07. > :36:10.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:11. > :36:14.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:15. > :36:18.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:19. > :36:23.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:24. > :36:26.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:27. > :36:31.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:32. > :36:36.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:37. > :36:40.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:41. > :36:43.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:44. > :36:47.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:48. > :36:51.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:52. > :36:55.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:56. > :36:59.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:37:00. > :37:03.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:04. > :37:08.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:09. > :37:11.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:12. > :37:16.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:17. > :37:19.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:20. > :37:28.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:29. > :37:32.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:33. > :37:37.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:38. > :37:41.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:42. > :37:44.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:45. > :37:50.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:51. > :37:55.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:56. > :38:00.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:38:01. > :38:04.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:05. > :38:09.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:10. > :38:13.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:14. > :38:16.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:17. > :38:24.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:25. > :38:28.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:29. > :38:32.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:33. > :38:37.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:38. > :38:55.I'm Stewart White. much.
:38:56. > :38:58.Yesterday the MP for Clacton, Douglas Carswell, delivered
:38:59. > :39:03.He resigned from UKIP, saying "the job's done".
:39:04. > :39:05.But there will not be a by-election and he intends
:39:06. > :39:23.In 2005 Douglas Carswell became the MP for Harwich, beating Labour's
:39:24. > :39:27.Ivan Henderson. He came to prominence for years later leading
:39:28. > :39:33.the effort that ousted the speaker Michael Martin in the wake of the
:39:34. > :39:36.MPs expenses scandal. All 650 MPs need to be made personally
:39:37. > :39:43.accountable for how they spent every pound of public money. Is
:39:44. > :39:46.constituency of Clacton had baby changes in 2010 where he won for the
:39:47. > :39:52.Tories and then came the shock defection to Ukip in 2014. I am
:39:53. > :39:55.leaving the Conservative Party has joining Ukip. You became the first
:39:56. > :40:00.and only Ukip MP in a by-election, and only Ukip MP in a by-election,
:40:01. > :40:06.with the big majority. That was cut in the general election of 2015. His
:40:07. > :40:09.relationship with Nigel Farage has been difficult, particularly when he
:40:10. > :40:13.decided to join a different campaign group to the Ukip leader during the
:40:14. > :40:18.referendum. He has decided to resign from Ukip saying he trusts trees are
:40:19. > :40:21.made to deliver Brexit. He will now sit as an independent MP.
:40:22. > :40:24.Here with me are UKIP MEP Stuart Agnew and Professor Paul Whiteley
:40:25. > :40:37.Douglas Carswell said it is an amicable split, but is it? Ukip
:40:38. > :40:43.councillors in Clacton city are glad to see him go. Some voters in the
:40:44. > :40:45.area who backed him as the MP feel let down.
:40:46. > :40:49.Once again the people of Clacton find themselves at the centre of a
:40:50. > :40:52.For your MP to leave the party has been elected to
:40:53. > :40:55.represent once might be considered understandable what to do it twice
:40:56. > :41:05.It is down to him at the end of the day, if he
:41:06. > :41:08.wants to do that we can't really do a lot about it, can we?
:41:09. > :41:18.Is that passion and that drive for your party isn't there any more
:41:19. > :41:22.then I think he has made the right decision to step away.
:41:23. > :41:24.Do you think you could still has a role?
:41:25. > :41:26.Yes I do, yes, I think they can speed up
:41:27. > :41:31.the process and get us what we need from the EU before we leave.
:41:32. > :41:33.Isn't it bad thing if the one MP leaves?
:41:34. > :41:41.When he joined Ukip in 2014 Douglas Carswell
:41:42. > :41:42.and the man he called his
:41:43. > :41:47.new best friend Nigel were mobbed by Ukip supporters.
:41:48. > :41:50.But since then relations between the MP and some in
:41:51. > :41:57.How else do you explain this reaction?
:41:58. > :42:01.I personally feel a great sense of cleansing, I think we have
:42:02. > :42:06.had a deep and gaping wound ever since Douglas joined the party.
:42:07. > :42:08.Douglas for all intents and purposes is Douglas,
:42:09. > :42:11.and he has really been quite independent for some time now,
:42:12. > :42:14.you may notice if you go to his office you will not see the word
:42:15. > :42:19.That has been the case for many months.
:42:20. > :42:22.So I don't think the people of Clacton
:42:23. > :42:25.will see a great deal of change from that point of view.
:42:26. > :42:27.I think some will feel it's truly disappointed
:42:28. > :42:32.Mr Carswell was in the front row to applaud Paul Nuttall
:42:33. > :42:35.when he took over as leader last year.
:42:36. > :42:38.Despite continued run-ins with Nigel Farage and some of his
:42:39. > :42:42.supporters, the Clacton MP told me only two weeks ago that he was very
:42:43. > :42:44.happy inside Ukip and felt that the party
:42:45. > :42:46.was carving out a new role for
:42:47. > :42:51.Personally I am devastated, I ran Douglas's campaign when he
:42:52. > :42:54.first was elected as the first Ukip MP so I am personally very
:42:55. > :43:01.But listening to reading what our party
:43:02. > :43:06.leader has been out today I believe there were issues that were never
:43:07. > :43:11.Conservative Party members in Clacton cant help
:43:12. > :43:14.smirking, the man who stood against Mr Carswell in the last two
:43:15. > :43:17.elections said this is just the latest sign that Ukip is falling
:43:18. > :43:25.As an innocent bystander it has been great entertainment, Ukip
:43:26. > :43:28.locally, some of them have moved back to us in the District Council,
:43:29. > :43:31.as you might know we have had some of back
:43:32. > :43:34.in the last year, the
:43:35. > :43:35.slitting and subdividing and subdividing and who knows?
:43:36. > :43:38.It seems to be imploding but it might get
:43:39. > :43:45.some cohesion somewhere but I can see that at the moment.
:43:46. > :43:48.The travel for Ukip is that this is happening
:43:49. > :43:51.all over the region, the party's leader Norfolk County Council Toby
:43:52. > :43:55.Cook resigned this week in a row over candidate selection.
:43:56. > :43:58.Its leader in Suffolk stormed out a few months
:43:59. > :44:00.ago and nearly every Ukip county council
:44:01. > :44:01.in Essex has decided not to
:44:02. > :44:06.stand again in this year 's elections.
:44:07. > :44:09.Ukip's problems seem to be down to three things, a lack of
:44:10. > :44:10.strong leadership, no one seems to be
:44:11. > :44:12.banging head together at the
:44:13. > :44:16.moment and then there is political inexperience.
:44:17. > :44:18.Many councillors have found local government hard work and
:44:19. > :44:22.have become disillusioned at how long it takes to get things done.
:44:23. > :44:25.And then there is the whole question about Ukip's future, post-referendum
:44:26. > :44:28.Clacton once again finds itself back in the
:44:29. > :44:37.I think he has probably thought about this very
:44:38. > :44:40.careful about what he has done his he has thought about it
:44:41. > :44:42.from his own gains and perspective that he had
:44:43. > :44:45.not thought about the people he is representing and we now need a
:44:46. > :44:47.member of Parliament that is actually going to put
:44:48. > :45:02.As we can see Douglas Carswell is waiting to speak to us. That last
:45:03. > :45:06.point, you are thinking only of Douglas Carswell and not of the
:45:07. > :45:10.people of Clacton. I don't think anyone can accuse me of acting on
:45:11. > :45:13.self-interest, I paid my own position in the House of Commons at
:45:14. > :45:18.some risk by during a party that had never won a seat in order to try and
:45:19. > :45:22.make sure we got a referendum. I have been consistent and the one
:45:23. > :45:26.thing I have always wanted to do is get it out of the EU. That process
:45:27. > :45:30.starts on Wednesday and I feel it is right for me to say aye will be
:45:31. > :45:34.leaving Ukip. I do understand that are good people in Ukip, that are
:45:35. > :45:41.good people who made the switch to Ukip, some of them likely will go
:45:42. > :45:44.back to other parties, some don't. You have said to me a number of
:45:45. > :45:47.times over the years when you have the by-election when you left the
:45:48. > :45:52.Conservatives that it was the right thing to do. Why is not the right
:45:53. > :45:58.thing to do, to have a by-election now? I am not going from one party
:45:59. > :46:03.to another, I am not saying I will submit myself to the width of a new
:46:04. > :46:06.party. If I was to make that transition them quite likely I would
:46:07. > :46:09.need the permission of the electorate but in a sense I have
:46:10. > :46:12.seen I don't have a whip, or other I have 70,000 of them and the occult
:46:13. > :46:18.directly to them and if I was directly to them and if I was
:46:19. > :46:23.joining the Conservative Party any other party quite like that I would
:46:24. > :46:27.need to call a by-election. I take seriously the idea of accountability
:46:28. > :46:30.to the voter. I was after the first member of Parliament in a generation
:46:31. > :46:34.to insist on submitting myself to a by-election but I am not making the
:46:35. > :46:40.jump from one party to another. I have seen that I am not subject to
:46:41. > :46:44.any web at all. With respect that is semantics, you are giving up the
:46:45. > :46:47.party you are elected to represent. It is profoundly important because
:46:48. > :46:52.if you move to a world in which any MP who either loses resigned the
:46:53. > :46:58.whip has to face a by-election then far from isolated eggs and the
:46:59. > :47:01.voters against the party establishment you strengthen party
:47:02. > :47:05.bosses against everyone else. It is a profound and fundamental point. It
:47:06. > :47:09.is also something I have given a great deal of thought too over the
:47:10. > :47:12.years and have been rigidly consistent on. Nigel Farage says you
:47:13. > :47:18.jumped before you were pushed and you were never a Ukip sort that IQ
:47:19. > :47:21.are never Ukip and use to undermine them. We have something in the piece
:47:22. > :47:27.from Andrew Sinclair, a cleansing, this will be, said one of your cal
:47:28. > :47:31.-- councillors. And Davies a wonderful council and woman is
:47:32. > :47:35.obviously disappointed. She has her views and I have enormous respect
:47:36. > :47:40.for her. I will not say anything uncharitable or in kind. What I
:47:41. > :47:43.would say is that at a national level there are some in Ukip are
:47:44. > :47:48.criticising me and attacking me when I said I wasn't going to leave and
:47:49. > :47:50.now that I am leaving the attacking. Maybe one or two people actually
:47:51. > :47:56.discovered if the forwarding my seat. Do you really think you can
:47:57. > :48:02.represent the people of Clacton best as an independent when actually they
:48:03. > :48:07.voted for you as a Ukip? I think I can do a better job. Two reasons,
:48:08. > :48:11.one is that I am no longer encumbered by the pretence that I
:48:12. > :48:15.must represent 4 million people in the House of Commons, I can focus on
:48:16. > :48:18.what I am there to do which is make sure we keep over the minor injuries
:48:19. > :48:21.unit of Clacton hospital and focus on local issues which are the
:48:22. > :48:25.bread-and-butter of politics. The second thing is that I set out
:48:26. > :48:29.yesterday before I made the announcement and e-mail to about
:48:30. > :48:32.20,000 constituents. Mike or vote if you like and I have been overwhelmed
:48:33. > :48:38.by the positive response with the exceptionally tiny handful, everyone
:48:39. > :48:44.has come back and so far said why didn't you do this sooner? Are you
:48:45. > :48:49.frightened of a by-election? I am not frightened at all, I rather
:48:50. > :48:52.enjoy by-elections. I called one and I think I am right in saying it is
:48:53. > :48:57.the largest 20 any election in British nautical history but I am
:48:58. > :49:01.not during another party to do not need the permission of the voters to
:49:02. > :49:08.submit to the whip of the authority of another party. I am sacking all
:49:09. > :49:13.of my obligations to political parties and is on submitting myself
:49:14. > :49:16.directly to 70,000 voters. Your share of the vote went down
:49:17. > :49:21.dramatically in the general election from the by-election. A mathematical
:49:22. > :49:26.fact. I expect my share of the vote now that I am not part of Ukip
:49:27. > :49:31.Meikle up but we will find out soon enough. 2020 is not that far away. I
:49:32. > :49:36.expect they may be an election before then. The Conservatives seem
:49:37. > :49:40.to be overjoyed that you are leaving Ukip, I know you have just avoided
:49:41. > :49:46.the question on national television. Given us a straight answer here.
:49:47. > :49:51.Would you like to be the next Conservative candidate for Clacton?
:49:52. > :49:55.It is not my choice, it is for local Conservative Party members to make
:49:56. > :50:01.if I was to apply for the job but you know right now I am not inclined
:50:02. > :50:06.to do so. We have three years on a couple of years at least to run and
:50:07. > :50:11.what I want to do is support a Brexit government. Theresa May is,
:50:12. > :50:16.if I may say, is doing a fantastic job. We have pre-Minister, we have
:50:17. > :50:19.come in and Blair and Mandelson Osborne who were the same, we now
:50:20. > :50:25.have some who is fundamentally different and on the side of the
:50:26. > :50:29.country and I want to see how things progress. You're seeing you have a
:50:30. > :50:33.lot in common with the Tories, you voted with the most of the time in
:50:34. > :50:38.Parliament. If I may say aye think that the leadership of the Tory
:50:39. > :50:42.party has embraced the Vote Leave agenda has quite a lot in common
:50:43. > :50:46.with those of us who have been campaigning to leave the EU. I am
:50:47. > :50:49.delighted that ministers who one year ago said that we had to leave
:50:50. > :50:52.and every voted to leave it would be the end of the world are now so
:50:53. > :50:56.successfully and passionately negotiating her withdrawal from the
:50:57. > :50:59.EU. I am not going to remind them that they changed their mind, I will
:51:00. > :51:02.quietly support them and make sure that we make good on a promise to
:51:03. > :51:08.take back control of our borders, our democracy, I don't care what
:51:09. > :51:12.colour of rosette the ministers where riders want to make sure
:51:13. > :51:15.happens. You're the leader of your own party if you're independent,
:51:16. > :51:19.someone once said of you that you could not be the leader of a party
:51:20. > :51:23.because she would start a rebellion. If you live in the past couple of
:51:24. > :51:26.years that is probably some substance in that accusation. In
:51:27. > :51:31.politics you fundamentally must remember who your boss is. The
:51:32. > :51:35.voter. And I no longer have a party to get between me and representing
:51:36. > :51:41.what I think is an -- is in their interest. I can focus on keeping
:51:42. > :51:44.open the minor injuries unit at Clacton hospital and make sure our
:51:45. > :51:47.bill does not take away our ticketing machines. These are the
:51:48. > :51:53.things that I get really worked up about. We can slightly move away
:51:54. > :51:57.from the macro issues and I can focus under edited unreserved on
:51:58. > :52:02.being a constituency MP. What do you say to those people we met in the
:52:03. > :52:05.street who said they felt let down by you? That are good people who
:52:06. > :52:10.obviously are going to think that I'm going to say that, and I respect
:52:11. > :52:14.that and I understand that but you are always going to be able to
:52:15. > :52:18.find... Had been treated this way, if I was talking to you now about
:52:19. > :52:21.triggering a by-election having just triggered one, you may find one or
:52:22. > :52:24.two people in Clacton perhaps those same people who might say that
:52:25. > :52:30.actually it was unnecessary by-election and unnecessary expense
:52:31. > :52:33.for the public purse. One or two people who are always going to be
:52:34. > :52:38.slightly critical of you will be critical to much whatever you do.
:52:39. > :52:43.Thank you for joining us. Lets Doctor guessed about that.
:52:44. > :52:47.Stuart Agnew your reaction. He has a right to leave our party but we did
:52:48. > :52:50.put a considerable notably source to get him elected under our colours
:52:51. > :52:56.two years ago and I feel there should be a by-election. His
:52:57. > :52:59.constituents, his bosses should be consulted and if they return him as
:53:00. > :53:04.an independent well and good but if they vote for some body else when
:53:05. > :53:09.that is the way it should go. Looking at what he has done, it
:53:10. > :53:12.seems to be history has repeated itself a little bit for me. I
:53:13. > :53:15.remember Kilroy silk, how pleased remember Kilroy silk, how pleased
:53:16. > :53:19.they were when he joined the party and it was a relief when he went. I
:53:20. > :53:24.was delighted when Douglas did what he did two years ago or whenever it
:53:25. > :53:30.was but one can't deny the fact there has been a steady drift away.
:53:31. > :53:36.There is a steady drift away from your party isn't there? Councillors.
:53:37. > :53:41.Why is that? Because there is this feeling of Orwell we are going to
:53:42. > :53:45.get this Article 50 and the job is done but actually it isn't done,
:53:46. > :53:48.good station means giving ground in the first ground they will give is
:53:49. > :53:53.the fishing ground. That is obvious now. There will be other grounds
:53:54. > :53:56.given and it is up to us to let the public know about this, that they
:53:57. > :54:02.are being let down. After all to reason me was a remain conservative
:54:03. > :54:07.who sat on the fence, she has always talked big in the past and is
:54:08. > :54:09.talking big now. It is only now that we will see if this will result in
:54:10. > :54:15.walking. Do you agree with that? Is walking. Do you agree with that? Is
:54:16. > :54:22.that your assessment? Ukip has gone through a perfect storm in the last
:54:23. > :54:26.period since the referendum. It has a winners curse if I can put it that
:54:27. > :54:31.way. Actually winning the issue that everybody identifies with the party
:54:32. > :54:35.and once that has happened people naturally ask the question, what is
:54:36. > :54:39.it for? And it is going through that problem. Secondly it has lost a
:54:40. > :54:44.charismatic leader in the form of Nigel Farage. He's what they call a
:54:45. > :54:50.Marmite politician, somebody people really like or they really don't
:54:51. > :54:54.like. But Paul Nuttall is a poor substitute for Nigel Farage because
:54:55. > :54:59.he was charismatic and they have lost that. The third thing of course
:55:00. > :55:05.is as we saw in the early interviews, they are really fighting
:55:06. > :55:09.like ferrets in a sack, and this is not a good thing if you want to
:55:10. > :55:12.attract the public will stop the public will be bemused by this
:55:13. > :55:20.infighting and people leaving at the local level, resigning their
:55:21. > :55:26.positions in the party. As a consequence it is facing a real
:55:27. > :55:32.problem. But he was a thing to think about. There was a poll conducted a
:55:33. > :55:36.couple of weeks ago by you of, they are still an 11% in voting
:55:37. > :55:41.intentions in the country is a whole and that is slightly below the two
:55:42. > :55:45.other half percent they got in the general election in 2015. I don't
:55:46. > :55:52.think they are out, they are facing problems but I don't think they have
:55:53. > :55:56.been knocked out. Let me show you figures from 2015. The share in this
:55:57. > :56:04.region went up from 4% to 16% in 2015. Is it down from the now do you
:56:05. > :56:06.think? It is a little bit but you have to recognise that they
:56:07. > :56:10.for a constituency in Britain as a for a constituency in Britain as a
:56:11. > :56:15.whole and in the region, they speak for people who felt left behind by
:56:16. > :56:20.and what academics call and what academics call
:56:21. > :56:23.globalisation, a horrible word. They speak for people who are threatened
:56:24. > :56:28.culturally by a large amount of immigration that has taken place
:56:29. > :56:32.over the years so they have a constituency. If I were them, and I
:56:33. > :56:38.am not, but if I where I would rebrand myself. I think what their
:56:39. > :56:44.role is is an English national party, EMP if you like, they can
:56:45. > :56:49.make the future by speaking for the constituency on those grounds. But
:56:50. > :56:53.they have to break with the label Ukip now that the referendum has
:56:54. > :56:57.been settled and we are getting out of the EU. One of the other things
:56:58. > :57:07.that Mr Carswell and Ukip disagreed on was actually immigration. Yes.
:57:08. > :57:09.Are you pleased he's gone? Yes, because you say please, I am
:57:10. > :57:14.disappointed actually that it has come to this. I'm not screaming with
:57:15. > :57:20.delight about it. But there was no two ways around it, he was not as
:57:21. > :57:25.strong on immigration as we are. That is where we see, we had a
:57:26. > :57:27.party, a pressure party you might say, we identify something happening
:57:28. > :57:32.in the country would other political parties away from and we make that
:57:33. > :57:37.the issue. It looks as though we have won it on Brexit but that is
:57:38. > :57:41.still not quite there yet. The next big problem of the other two I
:57:42. > :57:45.worked, immigration and integration. The other parties are backing away
:57:46. > :57:50.from that. There hasn't been a prosecution on FGM apart from a
:57:51. > :57:56.spurious one. We know that forced marriages going on but nothing is
:57:57. > :58:01.being done. We know there is this honour violence. Will you rebrand?
:58:02. > :58:05.that my colleague made here. It is that my colleague made here. It is
:58:06. > :58:08.worth a great deal of money. Apparently the Ukip brand is among
:58:09. > :58:12.country so to depart from that country so to depart from that
:58:13. > :58:16.there's a big commercial risk and the discussion is made within Ukip
:58:17. > :58:19.frequently, and we have a different sign? The pound is all about the
:58:20. > :58:22.euro in that battle has been one but then we are reminded that we have a
:58:23. > :58:28.very valuable brand and we should stick with it. Your support, albeit
:58:29. > :58:32.still quite strong, is falling. And when you see what is going on with
:58:33. > :58:38.Mr Carswell and the local council, it will be hard to rebuild from the
:58:39. > :58:40.wanted? It is going to be easier than it was in the early days of
:58:41. > :58:45.getting the party going and getting a brand. Now we have another
:58:46. > :58:47.direction to take a graphical jibber the immigration and there's more to
:58:48. > :58:51.it, that is all this nonsense of having a very expensive energy
:58:52. > :58:56.policy because of global warming, we're the only party to take
:58:57. > :59:00.head-on. Do you think these are things that the electorate will warm
:59:01. > :59:07.to? It is tough because the most effective slogan in the Brexit
:59:08. > :59:11.referendum was take back control. That worked well. But the
:59:12. > :59:15.substitutes slogan seems to be we will keep an eye on the
:59:16. > :59:20.Conservatives on Brexit. It is not quite so snappy is it? It isn't. So
:59:21. > :59:24.I think they need a branding -- a rebranding. Despite the point that
:59:25. > :59:32.the Ukip brand may be valuable I think they need to rename themselves
:59:33. > :59:36.and orientate to represent the constituency have spoken about. You
:59:37. > :59:40.see this across Europe. Parties like Ukip are doing well across Europe
:59:41. > :59:41.for the same reasons and that is why I don't think the party will
:59:42. > :59:47.disappear. OK. What we will do now disappear. OK. What we will do now
:59:48. > :59:49.is have a round-up of our political week. It will take is 60 seconds and
:59:50. > :59:56.here we go. MPs have been told that Norfolk has
:59:57. > :59:58.one of the highest rates in the country for students who have
:59:59. > :00:01.been permanently The number has almost doubled
:00:02. > :00:07.for 172 300 in the last two years. Given the awful results for children
:00:08. > :00:11.who are permanently excluded, what message does it send to Norfolk
:00:12. > :00:13.to sort out this The new combined authority
:00:14. > :00:20.for Peterborough and Cambridgeshire held its first meeting this week
:00:21. > :00:23.in Wisbech after receiving ?100 It is about those parts of Cambridge
:00:24. > :00:33.and Peterborough who perhaps in the past have not gotten
:00:34. > :00:36.all the support they needed. Meanwhile Norwich MP
:00:37. > :00:38.Clive Lewis had questions about George Osborne's new job
:00:39. > :00:43.as editor of the evening standard. I will declare an interest
:00:44. > :00:45.as a former NCTJ qualified journalist and also a member
:00:46. > :00:49.of the National Union of Journalists which I hope the Right Honourable
:00:50. > :00:52.member from Tatton will be I remember the honourable
:00:53. > :00:58.gentleman's admissions And Suffolk MP Jo Churchill
:00:59. > :01:18.did her bit for comic relief. Just before we go, do you think that
:01:19. > :01:22.Mr Carswell will go back to the Tories? Definitely. He has given
:01:23. > :01:25.himself three years to ingratiate himself with unmanned with a year's
:01:26. > :01:32.time people will start as campaign there. I think your interview shows
:01:33. > :01:40.he's applying for the job already. So that is a yes as well. Both of
:01:41. > :01:43.you thank you. That's all from us, don't forget you can watch the
:01:44. > :01:44.programme online through our website but for now from
:01:45. > :01:48.can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank
:01:49. > :01:54.you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.
:01:55. > :02:12.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:13. > :02:14.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:15. > :02:18.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:19. > :02:20.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:21. > :02:23.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:24. > :02:25.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:26. > :02:28.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:29. > :02:34.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:35. > :02:39.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:40. > :02:47.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:48. > :02:50.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:51. > :02:54.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:55. > :02:57.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:58. > :03:16.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:17. > :03:20.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:21. > :03:24.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:25. > :03:31.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:32. > :03:34.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:35. > :03:40.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:41. > :03:46.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:47. > :03:50.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:51. > :03:53.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:54. > :03:59.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:04:00. > :04:02.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:03. > :04:07.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:08. > :04:10.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:11. > :04:28.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:29. > :04:32.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:33. > :04:35.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:36. > :04:38.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:39. > :04:40.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:41. > :04:42.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:43. > :04:45.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:46. > :04:47.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:48. > :04:50.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:51. > :04:53.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:54. > :04:59.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:05:00. > :05:03.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:04. > :05:08.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:09. > :05:13.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:14. > :05:19.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:20. > :05:22.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:23. > :05:28.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:29. > :05:32.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:33. > :05:39.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:40. > :05:44.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:45. > :05:50.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:51. > :05:53.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:54. > :05:59.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:06:00. > :06:04.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:05. > :06:11.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:12. > :06:15.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:16. > :06:19.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:20. > :06:23.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:24. > :06:28.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:29. > :06:31.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:32. > :06:34.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:35. > :06:38.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:39. > :06:51.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:52. > :06:54.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:55. > :06:57.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:58. > :06:59.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:07:00. > :07:03.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:04. > :07:06.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:07. > :07:10.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:11. > :07:14.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:15. > :07:17.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:18. > :07:24.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:25. > :07:28.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:29. > :07:32.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:33. > :07:36.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:37. > :07:41.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:42. > :07:44.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:45. > :07:50.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:51. > :08:03.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:04. > :08:06.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:07. > :08:09.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:10. > :08:13.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:14. > :08:14.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:15. > :08:18.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:19. > :08:22.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:23. > :08:26.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:27. > :08:29.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:30. > :08:34.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:35. > :08:37.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:38. > :08:41.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:42. > :08:46.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:47. > :08:50.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:51. > :08:53.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:54. > :08:58.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:08:59. > :09:02.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:03. > :09:05.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:06. > :09:11.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:12. > :09:17.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:18. > :09:22.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:23. > :09:25.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:26. > :09:28.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:29. > :09:32.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:33. > :09:44.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:45. > :09:49.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:50. > :09:53.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:54. > :09:58.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:09:59. > :10:07.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:08. > :10:12.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:13. > :10:17.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:18. > :10:21.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:22. > :10:25.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:26. > :10:29.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:30. > :10:34.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:35. > :10:38.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:39. > :10:43.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:44. > :10:48.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:49. > :10:53.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:54. > :10:56.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:57. > :11:15.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:16. > :11:19.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:20. > :11:21.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:22. > :11:24.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:25. > :11:26.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:27. > :11:29.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:30. > :11:32.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:33. > :11:34.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:35. > :11:41.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:42. > :11:46.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:47. > :11:49.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:50. > :11:54.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:55. > :11:59.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:12:00. > :12:03.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:04. > :12:07.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:08. > :12:10.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:11. > :12:17.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:18. > :12:20.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:21. > :12:24.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:25. > :12:28.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:29. > :12:34.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:35. > :12:41.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:42. > :12:45.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:46. > :12:49.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:50. > :12:52.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:53. > :12:55.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:56. > :12:59.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:13:00. > :13:03.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:04. > :13:08.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:09. > :13:12.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:13. > :13:16.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:17. > :13:19.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:20. > :13:21.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:22. > :13:23.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:24. > :13:25.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:26. > :13:27.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:28. > :13:33.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:34. > :13:37.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's