:00:29. > :00:33.It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:34. > :00:35.Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test
:00:36. > :00:38.So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead
:00:39. > :00:44.Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness.
:00:45. > :00:48.We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans.
:00:49. > :00:51.The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives.
:00:52. > :00:56.But, now we've seen the manifestos, is Labour narrowing the gap?
:00:57. > :00:59.Here in the east, what will small businesses be looking
:01:00. > :01:01.And pensioners worried about manifesto plans
:01:02. > :01:16.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:17. > :01:18.panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:19. > :01:20.and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout
:01:21. > :01:22.the programme, and you can get involved by using
:01:23. > :01:30.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year
:01:31. > :01:42.worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto.
:01:43. > :01:48.The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not
:01:49. > :01:52.rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in
:01:53. > :01:59.the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000,
:02:00. > :02:03.would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John
:02:04. > :02:07.McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that
:02:08. > :02:10.there needs to be more cross-party consensus.
:02:11. > :02:12.That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported
:02:13. > :02:16.Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations,
:02:17. > :02:18.so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party,
:02:19. > :02:21.Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually
:02:22. > :02:24.I just feel we've all been let down by what's come
:02:25. > :02:35.Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had
:02:36. > :02:39.last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved
:02:40. > :02:43.Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there
:02:44. > :02:48.are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this
:02:49. > :02:52.campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that
:02:53. > :02:58.the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through
:02:59. > :03:02.very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just
:03:03. > :03:13.pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future.
:03:14. > :03:16.They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have
:03:17. > :03:18.lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that
:03:19. > :03:24.they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a
:03:25. > :03:31.sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of
:03:32. > :03:35.something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short
:03:36. > :03:39.time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages
:03:40. > :03:43.from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to
:03:44. > :03:48.whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point.
:03:49. > :03:55.That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory
:03:56. > :03:58.party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than
:03:59. > :04:02.anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the
:04:03. > :04:06.normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a
:04:07. > :04:13.reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong
:04:14. > :04:16.with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all
:04:17. > :04:21.this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an
:04:22. > :04:26.election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time
:04:27. > :04:30.in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and
:04:31. > :04:34.so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is
:04:35. > :04:40.electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the
:04:41. > :04:46.target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is
:04:47. > :04:51.rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending
:04:52. > :04:57.of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted
:04:58. > :05:05.commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the
:05:06. > :05:08.spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge
:05:09. > :05:17.problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a
:05:18. > :05:22.look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April,
:05:23. > :05:27.Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median
:05:28. > :05:33.average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead
:05:34. > :05:41.over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%.
:05:42. > :05:46.A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the
:05:47. > :05:49.intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had
:05:50. > :05:55.increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday
:05:56. > :06:01.came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time,
:06:02. > :06:06.Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip
:06:07. > :06:11.had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from
:06:12. > :06:15.the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This
:06:16. > :06:23.is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%,
:06:24. > :06:27.up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are
:06:28. > :06:34.down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both
:06:35. > :06:39.unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC
:06:40. > :06:44.website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national
:06:45. > :06:48.polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly
:06:49. > :06:52.weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an
:06:53. > :06:59.extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this
:07:00. > :07:05.campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib
:07:06. > :07:10.Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour
:07:11. > :07:15.would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low
:07:16. > :07:21.30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of
:07:22. > :07:26.the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I
:07:27. > :07:31.would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's
:07:32. > :07:37.result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want
:07:38. > :07:44.Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June
:07:45. > :07:49.the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think
:07:50. > :07:54.it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I
:07:55. > :08:00.think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he
:08:01. > :08:05.has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls
:08:06. > :08:10.are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead
:08:11. > :08:23.widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP -
:08:24. > :08:26.Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem
:08:27. > :08:28.to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But
:08:29. > :08:31.let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are
:08:32. > :08:36.saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really
:08:37. > :08:40.know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been
:08:41. > :08:45.the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't
:08:46. > :08:49.done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the
:08:50. > :08:56.Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is
:08:57. > :09:02.incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and
:09:03. > :09:06.that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour
:09:07. > :09:11.share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how
:09:12. > :09:14.turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that.
:09:15. > :09:17.We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main
:09:18. > :09:19.parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that
:09:20. > :09:23.So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public?
:09:24. > :09:25.Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out
:09:26. > :09:27.coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour
:09:28. > :09:30.Welcome to the BBC's election centre.
:09:31. > :09:34.Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00,
:09:35. > :09:38.we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll.
:09:39. > :09:40.18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio
:09:41. > :09:50.This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet.
:09:51. > :09:53.The parties' policies are now the finished product.
:09:54. > :09:56.In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state,
:09:57. > :09:59.the end of austerity, no more tuition fees.
:10:00. > :10:07.The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear.
:10:08. > :10:15.Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get
:10:16. > :10:18.immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked
:10:19. > :10:21.of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times.
:10:22. > :10:28.Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me
:10:29. > :10:34.And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity
:10:35. > :10:41.of purpose in our country, let us go forward together.
:10:42. > :10:44.Let's look at the Labour and Conservative
:10:45. > :10:50.On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners.
:10:51. > :11:14.The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them
:11:15. > :11:16.freedom to put up income tax and national insurance,
:11:17. > :11:19.although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same.
:11:20. > :11:21.Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring,
:11:22. > :11:23.with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power,
:11:24. > :11:26.The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune,
:11:27. > :11:28.but provided few details for the cost of their policies.
:11:29. > :11:30.Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's
:11:31. > :11:32.manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up.
:11:33. > :11:35.What have they got planned for health and social care?
:11:36. > :11:39.The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS,
:11:40. > :11:42.reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament.
:11:43. > :11:46.Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period,
:11:47. > :11:52.plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff.
:11:53. > :11:59.The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could
:12:00. > :12:02.protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be
:12:03. > :12:04.added to the assessment of your wealth,
:12:05. > :12:08.There was a focus on one group of voters in particular
:12:09. > :12:14.Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up
:12:15. > :12:19.The Tories would keep the increase in line
:12:20. > :12:23.with inflation or earnings, a double lock.
:12:24. > :12:25.The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments
:12:26. > :12:29.for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be,
:12:30. > :12:37.This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners,
:12:38. > :12:41.particularly those who are just about managing.
:12:42. > :12:45.It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party
:12:46. > :12:52.When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say
:12:53. > :12:55.they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy,
:12:56. > :12:58.secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights
:12:59. > :13:04.The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty
:13:05. > :13:16.Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks.
:13:17. > :13:22.I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
:13:23. > :13:29.Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social
:13:30. > :13:36.care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there
:13:37. > :13:41.are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit
:13:42. > :13:45.would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was
:13:46. > :13:51.hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would
:13:52. > :13:57.fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging.
:13:58. > :14:01.Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new
:14:02. > :14:05.proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care,
:14:06. > :14:10.which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a
:14:11. > :14:15.country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is
:14:16. > :14:23.one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that
:14:24. > :14:26.Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those
:14:27. > :14:32.big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets,
:14:33. > :14:36.including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all
:14:37. > :14:40.your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the
:14:41. > :14:46.services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your
:14:47. > :14:50.assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you
:14:51. > :14:57.shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are
:14:58. > :15:02.in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in
:15:03. > :15:09.domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary.
:15:10. > :15:13.Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if
:15:14. > :15:15.they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that
:15:16. > :15:25.in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a
:15:26. > :15:30.chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a
:15:31. > :15:34.stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we
:15:35. > :15:38.have those two important protections. I am including that. It
:15:39. > :15:42.is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that
:15:43. > :15:47.there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health
:15:48. > :15:51.and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those
:15:52. > :15:57.issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa
:15:58. > :16:00.May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British
:16:01. > :16:03.people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto
:16:04. > :16:07.was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was
:16:08. > :16:11.intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong
:16:12. > :16:18.economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is
:16:19. > :16:21.going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance
:16:22. > :16:24.between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We
:16:25. > :16:28.think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it
:16:29. > :16:32.is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if
:16:33. > :16:39.they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home,
:16:40. > :16:43.they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are
:16:44. > :16:48.reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything
:16:49. > :16:54.on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential
:16:55. > :16:59.care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the
:17:00. > :17:03.individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are
:17:04. > :17:06.seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is
:17:07. > :17:10.eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a
:17:11. > :17:16.worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that
:17:17. > :17:19.money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for
:17:20. > :17:23.it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to
:17:24. > :17:27.have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong
:17:28. > :17:30.economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good
:17:31. > :17:35.deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You
:17:36. > :17:40.have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the
:17:41. > :17:43.NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay
:17:44. > :17:47.for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case
:17:48. > :17:52.that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are
:17:53. > :17:57.in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if
:17:58. > :18:01.you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but
:18:02. > :18:07.all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a
:18:08. > :18:14.year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires
:18:15. > :18:17.to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term
:18:18. > :18:22.challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to
:18:23. > :18:28.deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and
:18:29. > :18:32.falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the
:18:33. > :18:37.amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them,
:18:38. > :18:41.those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up
:18:42. > :18:47.anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy
:18:48. > :18:51.of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to
:18:52. > :18:56.spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps
:18:57. > :19:01.in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during
:19:02. > :19:07.their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are
:19:08. > :19:11.providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a
:19:12. > :19:17.kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against.
:19:18. > :19:21.What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their
:19:22. > :19:25.assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to
:19:26. > :19:30.be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the
:19:31. > :19:34.last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called
:19:35. > :19:38.it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax
:19:39. > :19:44.inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same
:19:45. > :19:51.effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We
:19:52. > :19:54.are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but
:19:55. > :20:00.the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of
:20:01. > :20:04.assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might
:20:05. > :20:08.now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay
:20:09. > :20:13.a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my
:20:14. > :20:17.bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going
:20:18. > :20:22.to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration,
:20:23. > :20:27.you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You
:20:28. > :20:31.promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters
:20:32. > :20:35.trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative
:20:36. > :20:41.Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An
:20:42. > :20:44.ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that
:20:45. > :20:48.come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a
:20:49. > :20:52.period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our
:20:53. > :20:55.European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly,
:20:56. > :21:02.that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But
:21:03. > :21:07.it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it
:21:08. > :21:11.is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're
:21:12. > :21:15.after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative
:21:16. > :21:19.Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an
:21:20. > :21:23.ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an
:21:24. > :21:29.untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you
:21:30. > :21:34.came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at
:21:35. > :21:39.the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after
:21:40. > :21:46.six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So
:21:47. > :21:50.if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept
:21:51. > :21:55.that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the
:21:56. > :21:59.UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly
:22:00. > :22:02.drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not
:22:03. > :22:05.happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a
:22:06. > :22:10.way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors.
:22:11. > :22:13.But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the
:22:14. > :22:19.course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for
:22:20. > :22:23.example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it
:22:24. > :22:26.has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would
:22:27. > :22:32.have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we
:22:33. > :22:37.cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the
:22:38. > :22:41.hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the
:22:42. > :22:46.things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that
:22:47. > :22:50.but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame
:22:51. > :22:53.the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU.
:22:54. > :23:00.Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt
:23:01. > :23:06.you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit
:23:07. > :23:10.from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot
:23:11. > :23:15.more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on
:23:16. > :23:18.the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that
:23:19. > :23:21.when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when
:23:22. > :23:27.the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into
:23:28. > :23:31.the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration
:23:32. > :23:37.we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by
:23:38. > :23:42.anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools
:23:43. > :23:47.available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030
:23:48. > :23:50.before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more
:23:51. > :23:54.tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six
:23:55. > :23:58.or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the
:23:59. > :24:03.UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary
:24:04. > :24:05.how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration
:24:06. > :24:10.target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well?
:24:11. > :24:13.That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to
:24:14. > :24:18.create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or
:24:19. > :24:21.seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been.
:24:22. > :24:26.George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree
:24:27. > :24:33.with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that
:24:34. > :24:36.point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the
:24:37. > :24:42.wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have
:24:43. > :24:45.hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one
:24:46. > :24:49.other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that
:24:50. > :24:54.spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than
:24:55. > :24:57.it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago
:24:58. > :25:03.we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that
:25:04. > :25:07.we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on
:25:08. > :25:11.track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the
:25:12. > :25:16.money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find
:25:17. > :25:21.the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this
:25:22. > :25:25.?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend
:25:26. > :25:30.more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only
:25:31. > :25:35.way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy,
:25:36. > :25:39.and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to
:25:40. > :25:43.find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know
:25:44. > :25:47.you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off
:25:48. > :25:53.the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us
:25:54. > :25:57.where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to
:25:58. > :26:01.delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is
:26:02. > :26:05.coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad
:26:06. > :26:10.Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of
:26:11. > :26:13.putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can
:26:14. > :26:15.take forward. Thank you for joining us.
:26:16. > :26:17.So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak
:26:18. > :26:22.But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking
:26:23. > :26:25.Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today:
:26:26. > :26:29.What we're trying to do is to address what I think
:26:30. > :26:32.everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive
:26:33. > :26:36.problem of the cost of social care long-term.
:26:37. > :26:40.This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach,
:26:41. > :26:43.trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable,
:26:44. > :26:45.allows people to pass on a very substantial sum,
:26:46. > :26:47.still, to their kids, and takes away the fear
:26:48. > :26:54.Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary
:26:55. > :27:05.Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social
:27:06. > :27:09.care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets,
:27:10. > :27:15.you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well,
:27:16. > :27:19.I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is
:27:20. > :27:23.it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we
:27:24. > :27:29.have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you
:27:30. > :27:32.actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get
:27:33. > :27:38.to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to
:27:39. > :27:43.expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the
:27:44. > :27:47.south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas
:27:48. > :27:50.around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They
:27:51. > :27:55.have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they
:27:56. > :28:01.are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for
:28:02. > :28:05.their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be
:28:06. > :28:10.paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and
:28:11. > :28:13.health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for
:28:14. > :28:17.example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an
:28:18. > :28:21.elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care
:28:22. > :28:25.for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you
:28:26. > :28:28.have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by
:28:29. > :28:32.the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable
:28:33. > :28:41.balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not
:28:42. > :28:46.sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house
:28:47. > :28:50.prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people
:28:51. > :28:55.may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to
:28:56. > :29:00.?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only
:29:01. > :29:05.?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much
:29:06. > :29:11.before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but
:29:12. > :29:14.is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you
:29:15. > :29:19.are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and
:29:20. > :29:23.if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth
:29:24. > :29:27.very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I
:29:28. > :29:32.think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across
:29:33. > :29:37.the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it
:29:38. > :29:41.is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much
:29:42. > :29:45.examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The
:29:46. > :29:49.Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy
:29:50. > :29:53.which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of
:29:54. > :30:03.the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more
:30:04. > :30:05.fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan
:30:06. > :30:10.approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not
:30:11. > :30:16.pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy.
:30:17. > :30:21.The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending
:30:22. > :30:26.over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health
:30:27. > :30:32.spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better
:30:33. > :30:38.than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to
:30:39. > :30:43.the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't
:30:44. > :30:48.put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated
:30:49. > :30:52.approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the
:30:53. > :30:57.same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for
:30:58. > :31:06.here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you
:31:07. > :31:10.again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted
:31:11. > :31:16.in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way
:31:17. > :31:20.are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is
:31:21. > :31:26.how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say,
:31:27. > :31:32.if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody
:31:33. > :31:36.who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different
:31:37. > :31:42.approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7,
:31:43. > :31:46.may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting
:31:47. > :32:00.in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You
:32:01. > :32:03.are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are
:32:04. > :32:05.going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't
:32:06. > :32:08.necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will
:32:09. > :32:12.follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is
:32:13. > :32:19.capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at
:32:20. > :32:29.five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So
:32:30. > :32:33.pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of
:32:34. > :32:38.policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour
:32:39. > :32:45.Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith,
:32:46. > :32:49.defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are
:32:50. > :33:00.committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it?
:33:01. > :33:04.Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence
:33:05. > :33:09.review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday
:33:10. > :33:15.night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually
:33:16. > :33:19.said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new
:33:20. > :33:24.government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept
:33:25. > :33:31.of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in
:33:32. > :33:35.terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce
:33:36. > :33:41.something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap
:33:42. > :33:46.Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you
:33:47. > :33:52.protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she
:33:53. > :33:57.was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour
:33:58. > :34:04.would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that
:34:05. > :34:08.MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his
:34:09. > :34:16.links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to
:34:17. > :34:23.the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen
:34:24. > :34:30.to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn
:34:31. > :34:34.all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done
:34:35. > :34:39.with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in
:34:40. > :34:46.Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between
:34:47. > :34:52.state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense,
:34:53. > :34:58.the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political
:34:59. > :35:02.prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some
:35:03. > :35:09.kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if
:35:10. > :35:16.you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been
:35:17. > :35:21.allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That
:35:22. > :35:25.was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the
:35:26. > :35:29.Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our
:35:30. > :35:36.next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think
:35:37. > :35:39.it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying
:35:40. > :35:48.to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn
:35:49. > :35:55.IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish -
:35:56. > :36:01.British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated
:36:02. > :36:06.matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of
:36:07. > :36:10.peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say
:36:11. > :36:16.this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You
:36:17. > :36:21.would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he
:36:22. > :36:23.was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process
:36:24. > :36:26.along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,
:36:27. > :36:28.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:36:29. > :36:37.in Scotland and Wales. Hello, welcome to
:36:38. > :36:39.Sunday Politics East. Later in the programme,
:36:40. > :36:44.what the over 65s make of plans which could mean pension increases
:36:45. > :36:46.in the future will be lower. But let's start with
:36:47. > :36:50.small businesses. In 2016 we had more than half
:36:51. > :36:53.a million small businesses in this region, one of the highest figures
:36:54. > :36:57.per head in the country. According to the latest
:36:58. > :37:00.survey by the Federation of Small Businesses,
:37:01. > :37:03.members across the east of England are most worried about rising costs
:37:04. > :37:07.and want the next Government to help reduce the bill for
:37:08. > :37:11.national insurance. This is a highly paid region
:37:12. > :37:14.with the average wage Unemployment is 3.9%,
:37:15. > :37:20.well below the national average. Of course small businesses are
:37:21. > :37:24.an important part of all of that. According to new research,
:37:25. > :37:28.our small businesses want a business rates review
:37:29. > :37:32.and superfast broadband. They also want a good
:37:33. > :37:34.deal on Brexit. This report from Sam Reid starts
:37:35. > :37:41.with some flashing images. Bringing a spark to
:37:42. > :37:44.the Northamptonshire economy. This metal might not look much
:37:45. > :37:48.but it's precise technology being produced at this motorsport
:37:49. > :37:50.engineering film, RML These frames will end up
:37:51. > :37:55.on cars at racing teams So with Brexit on everyone's mind,
:37:56. > :38:00.bosses here say a good international trade deal -
:38:01. > :38:04.quickly - is key. Certainly we would want
:38:05. > :38:07.to hear information around those trade agreements,
:38:08. > :38:09.when are they going to happen, Key to us is our ability, at
:38:10. > :38:14.the moment we are quite competitive. With the drop in the strength
:38:15. > :38:17.of the pound means that for exporting we are in a very good
:38:18. > :38:19.situation right now. But knowing what that is going
:38:20. > :38:22.to look like in the future, some stability over what markets can
:38:23. > :38:26.I concentrate on trying 80% of this firm's
:38:27. > :38:30.trade is overseas. The fastest-growing
:38:31. > :38:33.market is the Far East. But Europe is important
:38:34. > :38:36.and at the moment it is not clear when in the UK will get to talk
:38:37. > :38:39.about a trade deal. And this will be a key issue
:38:40. > :38:44.for the new Government. But any suggestion this should
:38:45. > :38:47.be defined as a Brexit election is rejected
:38:48. > :38:51.by business leaders here. Brexit is important to a lot
:38:52. > :38:53.of businesses in the locality but it is not the be
:38:54. > :38:56.all and end all. Basically getting the fundamentals
:38:57. > :38:58.right, the next Government, at the infrastructure,
:38:59. > :39:03.they've got to look at the locality we are in so that devolution etc,
:39:04. > :39:08.where funds are coming locally, they've got to make sure
:39:09. > :39:11.that is right for this environment and they've got
:39:12. > :39:13.to concentrate on International We do a lot of documentation
:39:14. > :39:20.from this chamber to other parts of the world and that is
:39:21. > :39:22.on the increase. The view that we need to look
:39:23. > :39:28.beyond just Brexit is shared here. This Northampton-based
:39:29. > :39:33.heating and plumbing company employs 90 people,
:39:34. > :39:37.12 of them are apprentices. It is nice to learn a trade and be
:39:38. > :39:40.paid at the same time. So you don't have to worry
:39:41. > :39:43.about going to university or getting But the boss says they are having
:39:44. > :39:48.to train apprentices like these because the skills they need
:39:49. > :39:51.aren't out there. If we had more people,
:39:52. > :39:53.we could do more work. We are turning away work at this
:39:54. > :39:56.present moment because we haven't So we are putting the commitment
:39:57. > :40:01.in to train those people, we just need the commitment back
:40:02. > :40:04.to ensure that we can Financial commitment
:40:05. > :40:09.is a really key issue. It's a big overhead at the moment
:40:10. > :40:14.that we have of training, Skills have an impact
:40:15. > :40:20.on business but of course also Employment rates here
:40:21. > :40:25.in a soggy Northamptonshire are above the national average
:40:26. > :40:29.but wages are lower with full-time workers earning ?45 a week
:40:30. > :40:32.less than the average This week we learnt that inflation,
:40:33. > :40:38.the rate at which prices are rising, has increased to its highest rate
:40:39. > :40:42.for more than three years. That is leaving some
:40:43. > :40:44.here feeling in the pinch. I probably get the going rate
:40:45. > :40:51.for the role that I do. What I'm earning, everything
:40:52. > :40:56.is going up, mortgages A lot of hours worked but you don't
:40:57. > :41:08.feel like you're getting any more. You can work more and you still feel
:41:09. > :41:11.like you are buying the same things, you're not getting any more
:41:12. > :41:14.for your money these days. I'm a mother of two
:41:15. > :41:19.so I think we are all feeling Is there anything the Government
:41:20. > :41:25.could do, the next Government, to get more better paid
:41:26. > :41:27.jobs into Northamptonshire? I think we need to increase our
:41:28. > :41:33.industry at the moment, more investment opportunities need
:41:34. > :41:38.to be created. Back at RML in Wellingborough,
:41:39. > :41:41.these batteries for electric cars are being tested before
:41:42. > :41:45.being shipped to China. But the message here
:41:46. > :41:48.is if the economy is to be fully charged, the next Government
:41:49. > :41:50.will have to think about a lot In the manifestos this week,
:41:51. > :41:58.the Conservatives say they want to carry on reducing red
:41:59. > :42:00.tape for small businesses. Labour wants to reintroduce
:42:01. > :42:03.a lower small profits And the Lib Dems want to expand
:42:04. > :42:08.the British Business Bank which would provide long term
:42:09. > :42:10.capital for small and So what is it that
:42:11. > :42:23.small business needs. Graham Buck is a Regional Chairman
:42:24. > :42:32.of the Federation of Small Business. What could be even better is of some
:42:33. > :42:36.of these ideas were put into medium-term planning, not just
:42:37. > :42:43.flavour of the month. We have had brought tax regimes before that
:42:44. > :42:46.quietly disappeared. What matters above all to businesses and
:42:47. > :42:52.stability, that way you can plan a business and develop and grow it. If
:42:53. > :42:57.people are altering too many things too much of the time it is difficult
:42:58. > :43:02.to create a growing business. Are you saying politicians are promised
:43:03. > :43:06.in the air provided nothing? No, we are seeing a not very good at
:43:07. > :43:11.remembering what he promised after the election. Other things become
:43:12. > :43:14.more important. The bureaucracy that the Conservatives are talking about,
:43:15. > :43:19.is that one of the things which is worrying what people and small
:43:20. > :43:24.businesses? It is, because if you are a small business without
:43:25. > :43:26.departments to do things, and regulations come along, that
:43:27. > :43:32.actively detracts from your ability to to run the business and make
:43:33. > :43:35.profits and take on more people and contribute to the economy. And
:43:36. > :43:39.Labour are seeing small profits rate of corporation tax they would change
:43:40. > :43:43.that, presumably that is one of the cost things you would welcome? We
:43:44. > :43:47.would, provided it is a reasonable medium-term commitment and not just
:43:48. > :43:51.something that is good for election purposes but then gets quietly
:43:52. > :43:55.dropped thereafter. Keep being told that people are addressing the
:43:56. > :44:00.skills shortage, as it's been addressed or do you think that the
:44:01. > :44:09.still a problem? There are various aspects to it. One is of course our
:44:10. > :44:13.concern about the situation of non-British EU nationals working in
:44:14. > :44:18.this country, our views are very simple that they should be allowed
:44:19. > :44:21.to stay. Right up until the day we leave anybody should be able to come
:44:22. > :44:26.here under the present arrangements and that he also think the
:44:27. > :44:30.apprenticeship system is very good but needs extending and developing.
:44:31. > :44:37.The migrant workers thing is about cost per unit of employee? Not just
:44:38. > :44:41.that, don't forget that a significant number of members who by
:44:42. > :44:45.definition are business model is our themselves migrants from the rest of
:44:46. > :44:49.the EU. This is not just about the workforce, this is about people
:44:50. > :44:53.starting and developing businesses, entrepreneurs, what this country
:44:54. > :45:00.desperately needs. We've heard a lot about broadband, is that not getting
:45:01. > :45:03.better? It is patchy. We are getting fed up with major infrastructure
:45:04. > :45:07.providers and off, putting statistics, there is a subtle
:45:08. > :45:09.difference between a statistic and whether or not your business
:45:10. > :45:18.business can get adequate capacity broadband. Your pet streaming
:45:19. > :45:23.parties, what would you like? I think legislation and taxation need
:45:24. > :45:27.to be dramatically simplified for the smaller business, simply that.
:45:28. > :45:38.Let us get on with running the business, not completing the
:45:39. > :45:44.paperwork. Thank you. That seems fairly clear, Vicky? Absolutely.
:45:45. > :45:50.Since 2010 around 1 million more businesses in the UK, when Labour
:45:51. > :46:00.was last in power at the corporation tax was 20%, it is now 19% and
:46:01. > :46:04.actually reducing tax and reducing red tape is absolutely key, that's
:46:05. > :46:11.why we have also got the red tape challenge. As an NEP I have
:46:12. > :46:16.represented small businesses across the region and the Federation of
:46:17. > :46:21.Small Businesses manifesto ask for 30 key point is the first of which
:46:22. > :46:28.is securing certainty through Brexit and beyond. This point is that
:46:29. > :46:35.actually most politicians make promises and don't keep them.
:46:36. > :46:38.Certainty through Brexit and beyond which is why we have the Brexit
:46:39. > :46:43.strategy and why I want to reason me to be leading the negotiations for a
:46:44. > :46:46.position of strength and not handing over to Jeremy Corbyn and the
:46:47. > :46:55.chaotic approach that he would have any coalition. That is why we need
:46:56. > :47:01.to get that right and then invest in apprenticeships and skills is key,
:47:02. > :47:09.manifesto commitment is up to 3 million. We will keep these
:47:10. > :47:12.promises. Let him defend his leader. The problem with this argument as
:47:13. > :47:17.you are ignoring the seven years the Tories have been in power, I don't
:47:18. > :47:20.know who you want to blame it on, the Lib Dems are David Cameron. It
:47:21. > :47:31.is all about to reason me know. These are still issues we haven't
:47:32. > :47:34.invested in the basics. We changed tax-free genes and that is one of
:47:35. > :47:37.the reasons Labour wants to introduce lower rates to small
:47:38. > :47:48.businesses rather get massive discounts to big businesses. We have
:47:49. > :47:51.invested, we have a strong economy, the sickest Springwatch second
:47:52. > :47:54.strongest growing after Germany. We have more businesses than ever
:47:55. > :48:01.before. What about the seven years of not having achieved? We have more
:48:02. > :48:05.apprenticeships than ever before, I have some fantastic degree
:48:06. > :48:11.apprenticeships starting as well, we have this new commitment to take
:48:12. > :48:15.levels as well as A-levels so young people can do technical training.
:48:16. > :48:21.Surely the most important thing is stability. You talk a lot about
:48:22. > :48:24.strong and stable, there is nothing strong or stable about an economy
:48:25. > :48:29.when we don't even know where we're going to be in two years. The points
:48:30. > :48:32.were made really well by the Federation of small business, you
:48:33. > :48:34.need a Brexit steel that is going to deliver for business and therefore
:48:35. > :48:39.deliver for people. At the minute Theresa May is going off in one
:48:40. > :48:42.direction and left unchecked and given a blank cheque we are going to
:48:43. > :48:50.end up in a situation where stability is... I disagree. We have
:48:51. > :48:54.we had a chaotic labour economy and we have a strong economy. We going
:48:55. > :48:58.into the most competitive negotiations of a generation and we
:48:59. > :49:04.need to make sure that those are held with certainty and stability
:49:05. > :49:09.which is why we have... Look at what we have done since the referendum
:49:10. > :49:13.and holding the economy strong and encouraging investment to continue
:49:14. > :49:22.and we do need to deliver the negotiations. I do see it is
:49:23. > :49:25.chaotic? There hasn't been a political situation and are relating
:49:26. > :49:31.to rehashing more people and yet we are going into this election which
:49:32. > :49:34.is it approaches for opportunistic reasons so that Theresa May can get
:49:35. > :49:39.that strong and stable position but without any idea what we're for the
:49:40. > :49:43.end of it. Stability is the most important thing, we have laid out
:49:44. > :49:46.our approach, it is know for Theresa May to lay.
:49:47. > :49:50.In this region one in four people are 65 or over -
:49:51. > :49:54.The manifestos will have given them lots to think about.
:49:55. > :49:57.The Conservatives say they will make changes including means testing
:49:58. > :50:00.the winter fuel allowance and a plan to end the triple lock on pensions.
:50:01. > :50:03.The triple lock is a guarantee that pensions will rise
:50:04. > :50:07.By the increase in average earnings or by 2.5 per cent,
:50:08. > :50:13.The triple lock would end in three years' time to be replaced
:50:14. > :50:15.with a double lock linked only to earnings or inflation.
:50:16. > :50:21.Labour and the Lib Dems would keep the triple lock.
:50:22. > :50:24.Earlier this week I went to meet pensioner Brian Andews who's
:50:25. > :50:33.Well, I am a newbie to pensions and I was 65 last year.
:50:34. > :50:35.I have the new state pension, thank you very much,
:50:36. > :50:39.and the two and a half percent we get with the triple
:50:40. > :50:46.It keeps pace with inflation, with higher prices, and we get two
:50:47. > :50:51.and a half percent as you know as a minimum.
:50:52. > :50:56.And it is very important that we get this, if we don't then the ?600
:50:57. > :50:59.a month pension that goes into your bank account is probably
:51:00. > :51:02.going to diminish over time and the youngsters out
:51:03. > :51:06.there will end up with a pension much less than what we get now
:51:07. > :51:13.So as far as you're concerned, why should the Government do this
:51:14. > :51:22.Well, you know, if the Government are having a difficult
:51:23. > :51:24.time with the economy, why should pensioners who have paid
:51:25. > :51:34.I've got 44, my wife has got 42 years of contributions
:51:35. > :51:40.We've paid into a pension scheme and now we want our money out
:51:41. > :51:45.and we want it protected as you do with a private pension.
:51:46. > :51:47.Why should we have to pay for Government
:51:48. > :51:52.It's not fair and I think there are other ways
:51:53. > :52:09.I disagree with Brian. I take the view that this is not money that
:52:10. > :52:14.people have just felt away, they have invested it and pay the
:52:15. > :52:22.national insurance all this time. We know prices will significantly. Most
:52:23. > :52:26.pensions are paid out of the pension pot, we haven't got up a great
:52:27. > :52:30.pale... I would like to see politicians be honest and say to
:52:31. > :52:34.to UB group to keep them but it is to UB group to keep them but it is
:52:35. > :52:39.not just the triple lock, it is the winter fuel payments that Theresa
:52:40. > :52:44.May isn't committing to, it is the raising of the retirement age and it
:52:45. > :52:48.is the inheritance tax cost, attacks on illness. If these are the things
:52:49. > :52:50.they Tories are talking about and then manifesto, given five years and
:52:51. > :52:56.a blank cheque we are going to find out exactly what they want to do to
:52:57. > :53:02.have a pensioners. Under Labour, pensions had fallen way behind which
:53:03. > :53:06.increases so the triple lock was put there in order to increase pensions
:53:07. > :53:11.will stop the Tories put it in, pensions have gone up by over ?1200
:53:12. > :53:16.a year. Now they are ahead of wages. The double block will mean your
:53:17. > :53:21.pension is still linked to inflation, it still goes up with
:53:22. > :53:23.inflation but it means that there is no fairness between young and old.
:53:24. > :53:26.In terms of winter fuel allowance, In terms of winter fuel allowance,
:53:27. > :53:31.if you need it you will still get it. It will be means tested buddy
:53:32. > :53:35.Richard Branson 's of this world don't need it and they want to. That
:53:36. > :53:39.money then got into the which is really need the money to go. He is
:53:40. > :53:45.saying you have a blank check if you win this election and all sorts of
:53:46. > :53:49.other things will happen. We have commitments and we have made
:53:50. > :53:52.commitments we have helped too. We have said in the past we have had
:53:53. > :53:55.the triple lock it has done its job, no pensions will go up with
:53:56. > :54:02.inflation. And the winter fuel allowance it will be means tested if
:54:03. > :54:07.you need that he will keep it. The 2.5% has hardly ever actually come
:54:08. > :54:12.into play? But the that was a key part of this commitment that we made
:54:13. > :54:16.two people because very simply it covers all sorts of scenarios. It
:54:17. > :54:22.may be that we can be very predictable at what is happen in the
:54:23. > :54:25.economy for the next five years, I would personally prefer an assurance
:54:26. > :54:29.that we can to older voters to make sure that they don't fall back into
:54:30. > :54:37.pensioner proper poverty and have the people are in poverty are still
:54:38. > :54:42.pensioners. If you go into a care home, your savings go right down to
:54:43. > :54:45.20,000. We are quadruple in the amount of your savings that you and
:54:46. > :54:51.your partner can keep you going to a care home. But that has got to be
:54:52. > :54:55.fair between those at home and those in a home. But if you are cared for
:54:56. > :55:01.and your own home you are going to lose it very significantly under
:55:02. > :55:05.these changes and people are realising the threat that Tory
:55:06. > :55:09.Government 's presents to older voters know. My own view is that
:55:10. > :55:12.risks should be shared across all of us when we don't know what the risk
:55:13. > :55:16.is likely to be. One of one in four of us only to hear and I can tell
:55:17. > :55:22.you who it is. Let's protect all people not just those people that we
:55:23. > :55:25.can... We are raising by four times the amount of savings that are
:55:26. > :55:30.protected and we are making it fair between those at home and at home.
:55:31. > :55:36.But at home as an important... This is an issue we have seen all this
:55:37. > :55:39.week has been making the front page of the papers so it is something
:55:40. > :55:44.that's... It has a real issue. Not only do just this week of someone
:55:45. > :55:48.whose father was at home whose mother had dementia and in a home
:55:49. > :55:52.and for the father who had been left alone, what is savings are basically
:55:53. > :55:56.gone to this tiny level that he couldn't afford to then go on a
:55:57. > :56:05.holiday or take a break respite. We will note the triple the amount for
:56:06. > :56:09.that father and have that fear. The average cost of the house is 270
:56:10. > :56:11.7000. The reason we have to do this is because we are living longer. We
:56:12. > :56:17.must move on. Now our round up of the political
:56:18. > :56:19.week in 60 seconds Patients suffered delays
:56:20. > :56:27.and cancellations in the aftermath of last week's cyber attack
:56:28. > :56:31.on NHS computer systems. Colchester Hospital
:56:32. > :56:36.was one of those hit. We got 3000 PCs across
:56:37. > :56:39.the organisation in all clinical We have looked at probably
:56:40. > :56:43.about half of those so far The Conservative's plans for school
:56:44. > :56:48.funding failed to impress some We know that the Department
:56:49. > :56:54.for Education were looking to remove ?3 billion from school budgets just
:56:55. > :56:57.in the next couple of years sought to offer 4 billion over five years
:56:58. > :57:02.clearly isn't going to achieve Home Office Minister Great Yarmouth
:57:03. > :57:11.candidate Brandon Lewis got a chilly reception
:57:12. > :57:15.at the Police Federation conference. As those police officer
:57:16. > :57:18.numbers have changed, we have actually seen crime fall
:57:19. > :57:21.by about one third since 2010. And Unite for Europe's
:57:22. > :57:44.effigy of Theresa May I stop about education and school
:57:45. > :57:46.meals. The money from school meals will be going into education, we
:57:47. > :57:51.need more money in education and that is the and also a region we
:57:52. > :57:59.must get the fairer funding for schools. Vast parts of East Anglia
:58:00. > :58:03.are underfunded but the fairer funding is absolutely key. It
:58:04. > :58:09.teaches I'm speaking to say take the money away from the music that into
:58:10. > :58:12.the teaching. But every child is hungry they don't learn. That is why
:58:13. > :58:18.breakfast is more important than lunch. And the parents who can
:58:19. > :58:27.afford it... Shouldn't it be breakfast and lunch. I grew up on
:58:28. > :58:32.feeling like I was different because feeling like I was different because
:58:33. > :58:35.of that and at the heart of it, this policy which a Government introduced
:58:36. > :58:39.in the first place was to make sure you remove that stigma and reason
:58:40. > :58:42.learning standards. Show me the evidence that this is a better way
:58:43. > :58:46.to achieve that and I will be on board but the evidence isn't there
:58:47. > :58:50.at the something that has been sucked into the manifesto and I
:58:51. > :58:52.think most Tories are afraid to talk about it because it would work the
:58:53. > :59:05.repetition of taking news away from hungry kids. Bail? Bail? Don't leave
:59:06. > :59:09.the snick but we need to support those who need it badly to put the
:59:10. > :59:16.money into education. Thank you very much. It is a a busy couple of
:59:17. > :59:19.weeks. Thank you for taking the time to be with us this morning.
:59:20. > :59:22.Don't forget you can watch the programme online
:59:23. > :59:24.through our website - we're back next week in the final
:59:25. > :59:32.fortnight of the campaign, now back to Andrew.
:59:33. > :59:33.cancelled. And rent to own is still our policy. Thank you very much, Tom
:59:34. > :59:40.Brake. Andrew, back to you. So, two and half weeks
:59:41. > :59:43.to go till polling day, let's take stock of the campaign
:59:44. > :59:45.so far and look ahead Sam, Isabel and Steve
:59:46. > :59:59.are with me again. Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing
:00:00. > :00:04.about the just about managing. Not the poorest of the poor, but not
:00:05. > :00:10.really affluent people, who are maybe OK but it's a bit of a
:00:11. > :00:14.struggle. What is in the manifesto for them? There is something about
:00:15. > :00:18.the high profile items in the manifesto. She said she wants to
:00:19. > :00:23.help those just above the poorest level. But if you look at things
:00:24. > :00:28.like the winter fuel allowance, which is going to be given only to
:00:29. > :00:33.the poorest. If you look at free school meals for infants, those for
:00:34. > :00:38.the poorest are going to be kept, but the rest will go. The social
:00:39. > :00:44.care plan, those who are renting or in properties worth up to ?90,000,
:00:45. > :00:51.they are going to be treated, but those in properties worth above
:00:52. > :00:56.that, 250,000, for example, will have to pay. Which leads to the
:00:57. > :01:01.question - what is being done for the just about managings? There is
:01:02. > :01:05.something, the personal allowance that David Cameron promised in 2015,
:01:06. > :01:12.that they are not making a big deal of that, because they cannot say by
:01:13. > :01:19.how much. So you are looking in tax rises on the just about managings.
:01:20. > :01:28.Where will the tax rises come from. We do not know, that there is the 40
:01:29. > :01:31.million pounds gap for the Tories to reach what they are pledging in
:01:32. > :01:38.their manifesto. We do not know how that is going to be made up, more
:01:39. > :01:41.tax, or more borrowing? So that is why the questions of the
:01:42. > :01:46.implications of removing the tax lock are so potentially difficult
:01:47. > :01:49.for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto gives figures for the cost of
:01:50. > :01:53.certain policies and where the revenue will come from. You can
:01:54. > :01:58.argue about the figures, but at least we have the figures. The Tory
:01:59. > :02:03.manifesto is opaque on these matters. That applies to both the
:02:04. > :02:07.manifestos. Looking at the Labour manifesto on the way here this
:02:08. > :02:11.morning, when you look at the section on care for the elderly,
:02:12. > :02:16.they simply say, there are various ways in which the money for this can
:02:17. > :02:22.be raised. They are specific on other things. They are, and we heard
:02:23. > :02:29.John McDonnell this morning being very on that, and saying there is
:02:30. > :02:36.not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I have only got to page 66. It is
:02:37. > :02:41.quite broad brush and they are very open to challenge. For example, on
:02:42. > :02:46.the detail of a number of their flagship things. There is no detail
:02:47. > :02:51.on their immigration policy. They reiterate the ambition, but not how
:02:52. > :02:57.they are going to do that, without a massive increase in resource for
:02:58. > :03:03.Borders officials. We are at a time where average wages are lagging
:03:04. > :03:08.behind prices. And in work benefits remain frozen. I would have thought
:03:09. > :03:13.that the just-about-managings are people who are in work but they need
:03:14. > :03:19.some in work benefits to make life tolerable and be able to pay bills.
:03:20. > :03:27.Doesn't she has to do more for them? Maybe, but this whole manifesto was
:03:28. > :03:33.her inner circle saying, right, this is our chance to express our... It
:03:34. > :03:38.partly reads like a sort of philosophical essay at times. About
:03:39. > :03:42.the challenges, individualism against collectivism. Some of it
:03:43. > :03:48.reads quite well and is quite interesting, but in terms of its
:03:49. > :03:53.detail, Labour would never get away with it. They wouldn't be allowed to
:03:54. > :03:57.be so vague about where taxes are going to rise. We know there are
:03:58. > :04:02.going to be tax rises after the election, but we don't know where
:04:03. > :04:09.they will be. 100%, there will be tax rises. We know that they wanted
:04:10. > :04:15.a tax rise in the last budget, but they couldn't get it through because
:04:16. > :04:20.of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do offer a lot more detail. People
:04:21. > :04:26.could disagree with it, but there is a lot more detail. More to get your
:04:27. > :04:32.teeth into. About capital gains tax and the rises for better owners and
:04:33. > :04:38.so on. The SNP manifesto comes out this week, and the Greens and Sinn
:04:39. > :04:41.Fein. We think Ukip as well. There are more manifestos to come. The Lib
:04:42. > :04:48.Dems have already brought theirs out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat
:04:49. > :04:54.campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem to be doing particular the well in
:04:55. > :04:57.the polls, or at the local elections a few weeks ago. The Liberal
:04:58. > :05:03.Democrats are trying to fish in quite a small pool for votes. They
:05:04. > :05:08.are looking to get votes from those remainers who want to reverse the
:05:09. > :05:13.result, in effect. Tim Farron is promising a second referendum on the
:05:14. > :05:21.deal at the end of the negotiation process. And that is a hard sell. So
:05:22. > :05:27.those voting for remain on June 23 are not low hanging fruit by any
:05:28. > :05:32.means? Polls suggesting that half of those want to reverse the result, so
:05:33. > :05:36.that is a feeling of about 20% on the Lib Dems, and they are getting
:05:37. > :05:41.slightly less than half at the moment, but there are not a huge
:05:42. > :05:49.amount of votes for them to get on that strategy. It doesn't feel like
:05:50. > :05:54.Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have promised enough. They are making a
:05:55. > :05:58.very serious case on cannabis use in a nightclub, but the optics of what
:05:59. > :06:01.they are discussing doesn't make them look like an anchor in a future
:06:02. > :06:07.coalition government that they would need to be. I wonder if we are
:06:08. > :06:11.seeing the re-emergence of the 2-party system? And it is not the
:06:12. > :06:15.same two parties. In Scotland, the dynamics of this election seemed to
:06:16. > :06:17.be the Nationalists against the Conservatives. In England, if you
:06:18. > :06:35.look at what has happened to be Ukip vote, and what Sam was saying about
:06:36. > :06:36.the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to get some traction, it is
:06:37. > :06:38.overwhelmingly Labour and the Conservatives. A different 2-party
:06:39. > :06:41.system from Scotland, but a 2-party system. There are a number of
:06:42. > :06:46.different election is going on in parallel. In Scotland it is about
:06:47. > :06:50.whether you are unionist or not. Here, we have the collapse of the
:06:51. > :06:56.Ukip vote, which looks as though it is being redistributed in the
:06:57. > :07:02.Tories' favour. This is a unique election, and will not necessarily
:07:03. > :07:05.set the trend for elections to come. In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the
:07:06. > :07:14.fact that the fixed term Parliament act is going to be scrapped. That
:07:15. > :07:18.got almost no coverage! It turned out to be academic anyway, that it
:07:19. > :07:22.tells you something about how Theresa May is feeling, and she
:07:23. > :07:27.wants the control to call an election whenever it suits her.
:07:28. > :07:36.Re-emergence of the 2-party system, for this election or beyond? For
:07:37. > :07:40.this election, yes, but it shows the sort of robust strength of parties
:07:41. > :07:45.and their fragility. In other words, the Lib Dems haven't really
:07:46. > :07:49.recovered from the losses in the last general election, and are
:07:50. > :07:53.therefore not really seen as a robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If
:07:54. > :07:58.they were, they might be doing better. The Labour Party hasn't
:07:59. > :08:03.recovered in Scotland, and yet, if you look at the basic divide in
:08:04. > :08:08.England and Scotland and you see two parties battling it out, it is very,
:08:09. > :08:13.very hard for the smaller parties to break through and last. Many appear
:08:14. > :08:19.briefly on the political stage and then disappear again. The election
:08:20. > :08:24.had the ostensible goal of Brexit, but we haven't heard much about it
:08:25. > :08:31.in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories want to get back onto that. David
:08:32. > :08:34.Davis sounding quite tough this morning, the Brexit minister, saying
:08:35. > :08:38.there is no chance we will talk about 100 billion. And we have to
:08:39. > :08:44.have power in the negotiations on the free trade deal or what ever it
:08:45. > :08:48.is. I think they are keen to get the subject of the manifesto at this
:08:49. > :08:53.point, because it has not started too well. There is an irony that
:08:54. > :08:58.Theresa May ostensibly called the election because she needed a
:08:59. > :09:01.stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations, and there was an
:09:02. > :09:04.opportunity for the Lib Dems, with their unique offer of being the
:09:05. > :09:10.party that is absolutely against the outcome of the referendum, and
:09:11. > :09:15.offering another chance. There hasn't been much airtime on that
:09:16. > :09:21.particular pledge, because instead, this election has segued into being
:09:22. > :09:25.all about leadership. Theresa May's leadership, and looking again at the
:09:26. > :09:33.Tory manifesto, I was struck that she was saying that this is my plan
:09:34. > :09:39.for the future, not ABBA plan. Even when talking about social care, he
:09:40. > :09:43.manages to work in a bit about Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris
:09:44. > :09:48.Johnson this morning, an interview he gave on another political
:09:49. > :09:52.programme this morning, it was extraordinarily sycophantic for him.
:09:53. > :09:59.Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There is a man trying to secure his job in
:10:00. > :10:05.the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? I think she will leave him. Better
:10:06. > :10:11.in the tent than out. What did you make of David Davis' remarks? He was
:10:12. > :10:17.basically saying, we will walk away from the negotiating table if the
:10:18. > :10:25.Europeans slam a bill for 100 billion euros. The point is that the
:10:26. > :10:29.Europeans will not slam a bill for 100 billion euros on the negotiating
:10:30. > :10:34.table. That is the gross figure. There are all sorts of things that
:10:35. > :10:39.need to be taken into account. I imagine they will ask for something
:10:40. > :10:46.around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. It looks that they are trying to
:10:47. > :10:49.make it look like a concession when they do make their demands in order
:10:50. > :10:54.to soften the ground for what is going to happen just two weeks after
:10:55. > :10:58.general election day. He makes a reasonable point about having
:10:59. > :11:02.parallel talks. What they want to do straightaway is deal with the bill,
:11:03. > :11:07.Northern Ireland and citizens rights. All of those things are very
:11:08. > :11:11.complicated and interlinked issues, which cannot be dealt with in
:11:12. > :11:16.isolation. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with parallel talks,
:11:17. > :11:22.just to work out where we are going with Northern Ireland and the
:11:23. > :11:26.border. Steve, you can't work out what the Northern Ireland border
:11:27. > :11:31.will be, and EU citizens' writes here, until you work out what our
:11:32. > :11:36.relationship with the EU in the future will be. Indeed. The British
:11:37. > :11:40.government is under pressure to deal quickly with the border issue in
:11:41. > :11:45.Ireland, but feel they can't do so because when you have a tariff free
:11:46. > :11:48.arrangement outcome, or an arrangement that is much more
:11:49. > :11:53.protectionist, and that will determine partly the nature of the
:11:54. > :11:56.border. You cannot have a quick agreement on that front without
:11:57. > :12:00.knowing the rest of the deal. I think the negotiation will be
:12:01. > :12:05.complex. I am certain they want a deal rather than none, because this
:12:06. > :12:11.is no deal thing is part of the negotiation at this early stage.
:12:12. > :12:14.Sounding tough in the general election campaign also works
:12:15. > :12:22.electorally. But after the election, it will be a tough negotiation,
:12:23. > :12:25.beginning with this cost of Brexit. My understanding is that the
:12:26. > :12:30.government feels it's got to make the Europeans think they will not do
:12:31. > :12:35.a deal in order to get a deal. They don't want no deal. Absolutely not.
:12:36. > :12:38.And I'm sure it plays into the election. I'm sure the rhetoric will
:12:39. > :12:43.change when the election is over. That's all for today,
:12:44. > :12:45.thank you to all my guests. The Daily Politics will be
:12:46. > :12:48.back on BBC Two at 12.00 And tomorrow evening I will be
:12:49. > :12:52.starting my series of interviews with the party leaders -
:12:53. > :12:54.first up is the Prime Minister, Theresa May,
:12:55. > :12:56.that's at 7pm on BBC One. And I'll be back here at the same
:12:57. > :13:00.time on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:01. > :13:48.it's the Sunday Politics. We've made great strides
:13:49. > :13:50.tackling HIV. Imagine if we could
:13:51. > :13:53.create a movement