:00:37. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:45. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:18.Here in the East: and intelligence agencies.
:01:19. > :01:21.We're in Clacton, where the first and only Ukip MP
:01:22. > :01:22.We'll be meeting the candidates fighting to win the seat this time.
:01:23. > :01:26.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:27. > :01:33.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:34. > :01:35.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:37.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:38. > :01:42.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:43. > :01:49.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:50. > :01:53.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:54. > :01:59.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:02:00. > :02:02.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:03. > :02:07.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:08. > :02:09.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:10. > :02:15.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:16. > :02:17.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:18. > :02:23.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:24. > :02:27.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:28. > :02:30.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:31. > :02:34.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:35. > :02:37.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:38. > :02:46.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:47. > :02:48.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:49. > :02:52.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:53. > :02:54.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:55. > :02:56.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:57. > :03:04.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:05. > :03:10.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:11. > :03:13.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:14. > :03:16.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:17. > :03:19.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:20. > :03:22.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:23. > :03:23.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:24. > :03:27.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:28. > :03:29.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:30. > :03:42.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:43. > :03:48.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:49. > :03:51.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:52. > :03:57.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:58. > :04:02.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:03. > :04:09.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:10. > :04:14.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:15. > :04:17.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:18. > :04:22.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:23. > :04:26.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:27. > :04:36.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:37. > :04:40.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:41. > :04:46.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:47. > :04:49.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:50. > :04:54.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:55. > :04:58.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:04:59. > :05:02.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:03. > :05:05.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:06. > :05:13.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:14. > :05:17.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:18. > :05:23.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:24. > :05:29.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:30. > :05:33.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:34. > :05:37.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:38. > :05:41.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:42. > :05:48.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:49. > :05:51.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:52. > :05:56.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:57. > :05:59.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:00. > :06:04.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:05. > :06:08.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:09. > :06:13.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:14. > :06:17.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:18. > :06:22.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:23. > :06:27.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:28. > :06:31.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:32. > :06:35.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:36. > :06:39.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:40. > :06:47.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:48. > :06:51.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:52. > :06:56.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:57. > :07:02.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:03. > :07:06.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:07. > :07:10.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:11. > :07:14.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:15. > :07:23.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:24. > :07:28.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:29. > :07:32.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:33. > :07:38.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:39. > :07:41.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:42. > :07:46.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:47. > :07:53.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:54. > :07:57.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:58. > :08:03.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:04. > :08:06.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:07. > :08:11.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:12. > :08:16.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:17. > :08:21.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:22. > :08:24.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:25. > :08:28.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:29. > :08:32.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:33. > :08:37.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:38. > :08:40.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:41. > :08:44.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:45. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:54.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:55. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:03.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:04. > :09:05.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:06. > :09:11.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:12. > :09:15.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:16. > :09:20.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:21. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:28.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:29. > :09:32.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:33. > :09:37.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:38. > :09:40.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:41. > :09:47.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:48. > :09:52.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:53. > :09:59.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:00. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:09.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:10. > :10:14.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:15. > :10:19.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:20. > :10:23.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:24. > :10:28.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:29. > :10:33.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:34. > :10:36.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:37. > :10:41.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:42. > :10:44.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:45. > :10:48.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:49. > :10:54.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:55. > :10:55.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:56. > :10:57.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:58. > :11:00.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:01. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:06.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:07. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:25.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:26. > :11:30.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:31. > :11:36.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:37. > :11:39.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:40. > :11:44.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:45. > :11:45.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:46. > :11:46.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:47. > :11:57.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:58. > :12:00.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:01. > :12:03.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:04. > :12:06.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:07. > :12:12.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:13. > :12:19.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:20. > :12:22.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:23. > :12:26.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:27. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:40.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:41. > :12:45.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:46. > :12:54.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:55. > :12:58.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:59. > :13:03.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:04. > :13:06.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:07. > :13:10.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:11. > :13:16.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:17. > :13:20.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:21. > :13:27.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:28. > :13:32.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:33. > :13:35.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:36. > :13:40.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:41. > :13:46.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:47. > :13:50.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:51. > :13:57.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:58. > :14:00.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:01. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:16.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:17. > :14:22.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:23. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:30.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:31. > :14:36.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:37. > :14:40.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:41. > :14:44.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:45. > :14:50.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:51. > :14:55.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:56. > :14:59.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:00. > :15:04.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:05. > :15:09.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:10. > :15:14.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:15. > :15:18.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:19. > :15:22.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:23. > :15:31.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:32. > :15:34.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:35. > :15:40.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:41. > :15:45.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:46. > :15:49.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:50. > :15:52.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:53. > :15:59.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:16:00. > :16:02.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:03. > :16:05.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:06. > :16:08.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:09. > :16:13.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:14. > :16:18.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:19. > :16:21.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:22. > :16:26.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:27. > :16:32.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:33. > :16:37.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:38. > :16:47.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:48. > :16:52.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:53. > :16:57.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:58. > :17:00.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:01. > :17:05.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:06. > :17:08.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:09. > :17:14.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:15. > :17:20.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:21. > :17:25.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:26. > :17:28.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:29. > :17:36.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:37. > :17:39.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:40. > :17:44.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:45. > :17:48.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:49. > :17:52.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:53. > :17:57.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:58. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:15.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:16. > :18:17.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:18. > :18:19.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:20. > :18:22.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:23. > :18:31.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:32. > :18:40.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:41. > :18:45.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:46. > :18:50.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:51. > :18:54.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:55. > :19:02.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:03. > :19:05.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:06. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:23.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:24. > :19:27.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:28. > :19:31.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:32. > :19:34.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:35. > :19:38.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:39. > :19:40.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:41. > :19:45.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:46. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:50.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:51. > :19:52.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:53. > :19:54.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:55. > :19:56.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:57. > :20:10.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:11. > :20:13.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:14. > :20:19.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:20. > :20:23.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:24. > :20:28.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:29. > :20:34.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:35. > :20:37.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:38. > :20:42.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:43. > :20:46.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:47. > :20:52.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:53. > :20:57.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:58. > :21:01.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:02. > :21:07.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:08. > :21:11.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:12. > :21:16.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:17. > :21:21.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:22. > :21:28.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:29. > :21:31.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:32. > :21:36.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:37. > :21:42.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:43. > :21:49.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:50. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:56.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:57. > :22:01.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:02. > :22:06.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:07. > :22:12.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:13. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:19.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:20. > :22:23.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:24. > :22:26.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:27. > :22:32.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:33. > :22:37.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:38. > :22:42.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:43. > :22:47.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:48. > :22:51.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:52. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:03.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:04. > :23:07.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:08. > :23:10.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:11. > :23:16.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:17. > :23:20.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:21. > :23:28.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:29. > :23:37.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:38. > :23:39.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:40. > :23:47.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:48. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:58.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:59. > :24:02.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:03. > :24:07.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:08. > :24:11.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:12. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:20.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:21. > :24:25.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:26. > :24:31.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:32. > :24:35.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:36. > :24:39.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:40. > :24:44.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:45. > :24:49.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:50. > :24:54.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:55. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:10.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:11. > :25:13.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:14. > :25:16.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:17. > :25:24.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:25. > :25:28.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:29. > :25:33.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:34. > :25:40.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:41. > :25:43.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:44. > :25:53.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:54. > :26:00.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:01. > :26:05.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:06. > :26:10.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:11. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:22.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:23. > :26:30.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:31. > :26:35.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:36. > :26:43.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:44. > :26:48.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:49. > :26:51.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:52. > :26:57.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:58. > :27:02.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:03. > :27:08.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:09. > :27:17.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:18. > :27:20.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:21. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:31.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:32. > :27:34.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:35. > :27:42.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:43. > :27:49.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:50. > :27:54.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:55. > :27:58.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:59. > :28:02.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:03. > :28:07.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:08. > :28:11.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:12. > :28:16.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:17. > :28:22.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:23. > :28:34.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:35. > :28:36.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:37. > :28:44.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:45. > :28:46.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:47. > :28:48.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:49. > :28:51.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:52. > :28:52.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:53. > :28:54.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:55. > :28:57.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:58. > :28:58.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:28:59. > :29:01.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:02. > :29:04.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:05. > :29:10.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:11. > :29:28.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:29. > :29:31.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:32. > :29:33.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:34. > :29:40.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:41. > :29:44.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:45. > :29:50.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:51. > :29:54.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:55. > :29:58.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:59. > :30:05.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:06. > :30:09.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:10. > :30:17.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:18. > :30:21.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:22. > :30:24.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:25. > :30:29.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:30. > :30:34.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:35. > :30:44.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:45. > :30:52.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:53. > :30:59.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:00. > :31:03.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:04. > :31:07.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:08. > :31:12.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:13. > :31:14.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:15. > :31:18.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:19. > :31:26.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:27. > :31:30.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:31. > :31:34.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:35. > :31:39.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:40. > :31:44.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:45. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:58.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:31:59. > :32:06.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:07. > :32:15.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:16. > :32:24.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:25. > :32:31.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:32. > :32:37.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:38. > :32:41.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:42. > :32:45.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:46. > :32:51.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:52. > :32:54.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:55. > :32:59.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:00. > :33:05.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:06. > :33:10.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:11. > :33:17.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:18. > :33:26.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:27. > :33:33.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:34. > :33:38.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:39. > :33:41.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:42. > :33:48.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:49. > :33:50.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:51. > :33:56.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:57. > :34:02.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:03. > :34:07.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:08. > :34:11.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:12. > :34:15.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:16. > :34:18.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:19. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:25.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:26. > :34:28.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:29. > :34:33.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:34. > :34:38.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:39. > :34:44.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:45. > :34:47.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:48. > :34:51.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:52. > :34:57.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:58. > :35:01.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:02. > :35:04.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:05. > :35:09.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:10. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:16.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:17. > :35:22.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:23. > :35:26.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:27. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:38.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:39. > :35:41.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:42. > :35:46.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:47. > :35:50.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:51. > :35:56.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:57. > :35:59.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:36:00. > :36:06.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:07. > :36:14.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:15. > :36:18.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:19. > :36:24.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:25. > :36:27.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:28. > :36:34.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:35. > :36:36.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:37. > :36:44.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:45. > :36:48.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:49. > :36:54.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:55. > :37:00.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:01. > :37:05.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:06. > :37:11.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:12. > :37:17.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:18. > :37:20.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:21. > :37:27.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:28. > :37:33.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:34. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:40. > :37:43.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:44. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:50.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:51. > :37:57.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:58. > :38:01.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:02. > :38:05.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:06. > :38:13.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:14. > :38:18.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:19. > :38:22.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:23. > :38:27.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:28. > :38:30.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:31. > :38:35.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:36. > :38:40.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:41. > :38:44.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:45. > :38:48.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:49. > :38:51.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:52. > :38:52.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:53. > :38:54.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:55. > :38:57.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:58. > :39:11.Hello. minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:12. > :39:12.Welcome to Sunday Politics East. I'm Stewart White.
:39:13. > :39:33.when he became the first Ukip MP to win a seat at an election.
:39:34. > :39:36.Now he's standing down, saying "job done" on leaving the EU.
:39:37. > :39:38.So who will be the next MP for Clacton?
:39:39. > :39:41.most of the candidates for the main parties.
:39:42. > :39:43.Later in the programme, we'll be talking about immigration.
:39:44. > :39:45.There are quite a few, believe it or not,
:39:46. > :39:47.when you are walking through the town, listening
:39:48. > :39:50.to people talk, there is a lot of foreign accents,
:39:51. > :40:15.and Robin Tillbrook for the English Democrats,
:40:16. > :40:24.a party which advocates English independence.
:40:25. > :40:33.We had been expecting David grist for the Liberal Democrats because of
:40:34. > :40:41.problems with his car. Job done, said the local MP is far from job
:40:42. > :40:44.done both in terms of Brexit and other needs in the area. It is
:40:45. > :40:51.offensive to state job done when there is so much that he's done. In
:40:52. > :40:56.terms of Brexit, we need to retain the benefits of the single market
:40:57. > :41:03.and trade within the EU, particularly protecting farmers and
:41:04. > :41:10.their exploits into the EU markets. And make sure they are not undercut
:41:11. > :41:22.by Brexit being an excuse to import poor quality. And free movement
:41:23. > :41:33.following the EU and control immigration making sure we only have
:41:34. > :41:44.positive immigration. I have very rarely agreed with Douglas Carswell.
:41:45. > :41:48.We have two Ukip MPs. He was elected, the other. The job is far
:41:49. > :41:53.from done. We are concerned about wine Theresa May has called this
:41:54. > :41:58.election at this point, increasing her majority in the House of
:41:59. > :42:02.Commons. She has caught the other parties out in this regard. We do
:42:03. > :42:10.not forget that Theresa May campaign for remain in the referendum.
:42:11. > :42:14.Concerned by surveys, for example by Sky News, which showed a box of the
:42:15. > :42:20.new Tory intake are soft when it comes to the terms of the divorce.
:42:21. > :42:27.They are not bothered about 50 billion in a divorce bill, they will
:42:28. > :42:33.not protect fishing. A lot of the Conservative candidates are soft? I
:42:34. > :42:40.would not that. I am a above all else. We have to get this -- a
:42:41. > :42:48.democrat above all else. We must not muck around, get out straightaway.
:42:49. > :42:52.The most important thing in my mind is that we must not think or dream
:42:53. > :42:57.of going for a second referendum. They can be divisive and another
:42:58. > :43:01.would divide us even further. We must pull together and get out of
:43:02. > :43:08.the EU and give Theresa May the strongest mandate possible. A hard
:43:09. > :43:12.Brexit is potentially an enormous environmental disaster for the UK
:43:13. > :43:20.because Europe has underwritten things like the clean air act, clean
:43:21. > :43:25.beaches, clean water. The subsidies they get your farmers where and at
:43:26. > :43:30.having a countryside that everyone wants with wildlife, which we want
:43:31. > :43:36.to see. If all those things go down the tubes when we leave the EU, it
:43:37. > :43:42.would be a disaster. A job not done far enough? Not finished yet. There
:43:43. > :43:48.is all the negotiations to take place. Those negotiations need to be
:43:49. > :43:53.done with a view to protecting England's interest. One of the
:43:54. > :43:58.problems we have got within the Establishment at the moment is that
:43:59. > :44:03.England is barely recognised. What's Theresa May promised to do as part
:44:04. > :44:06.of the negotiations was to talk to the first ministers of Scotland,
:44:07. > :44:11.Wales and Northern Ireland 's and include them in the negotiations,
:44:12. > :44:16.but nothing for England at all. And that is the only part of the United
:44:17. > :44:20.Kingdom directly ruled by the British Government. We have causes
:44:21. > :44:26.to worry about whether England's images will be taken into account.
:44:27. > :44:29.-- England's views. New figures out this week
:44:30. > :44:32.show that immigration is falling. 3.6% of population
:44:33. > :44:34.was born in the EU, well below the national
:44:35. > :44:36.average of 5.5%. A few miles up the road
:44:37. > :44:38.in Colchester, 6.6% of the population
:44:39. > :44:42.comes from the EU. were a key factor in
:44:43. > :44:46.the referendum vote last year. Let's start off with just a swinging
:44:47. > :45:03.at the arms and shoulders. It's time to be put
:45:04. > :45:05.through our political paces. That is the movement
:45:06. > :45:08.unique for walking. In England's oldest town,
:45:09. > :45:16.all walks of life meet weekly When the people head
:45:17. > :45:32.to the polls in Colchester, You would have thought
:45:33. > :45:36.that the Conservatives would have taken the seat off
:45:37. > :45:38.the Liberal Democrats The burning issue here, other
:45:39. > :45:45.than my quads right now, is Brexit. Walking towards an election,
:45:46. > :45:47.what is the most important thing Well, there are lots of things.
:45:48. > :45:53.I voted Brexit. So that would be one
:45:54. > :45:57.of the main things. But to be honest, I don't trust
:45:58. > :45:59.Theresa May to deliver Really?
:46:00. > :46:03.No. Roger also voted for Brexit, as most
:46:04. > :46:07.of the Colchester Borough did. He is most concerned
:46:08. > :46:10.about immigration. I think there has
:46:11. > :46:13.to be a limit on it. As a country, when we look
:46:14. > :46:18.at housing and various things, we are struggling to actually
:46:19. > :46:22.have the right amount. Even in liberal small
:46:23. > :46:28.C Conservative Colchester, New figures out last week, though,
:46:29. > :46:34.showed the rise of EU We have seen the overall
:46:35. > :46:40.net migration figure That is a difference
:46:41. > :46:43.between the number of people coming in to the country
:46:44. > :46:45.and the number leaving. That suggests that Britain is
:46:46. > :46:47.less attractive to people In particular, there has been a
:46:48. > :46:51.drop in immigration from Europe, Here in Clacton, people
:46:52. > :46:54.want to see immigration Since the late 1990s,
:46:55. > :47:00.immigration began to come up and get It is something of a big concern
:47:01. > :47:06.for the people of Clacton. When the Conservatives
:47:07. > :47:10.got into government, they got in with a pledge to bring
:47:11. > :47:13.it back down to the level That is something they have not
:47:14. > :47:17.been able to achieve There are over 700,000 people
:47:18. > :47:24.in the East who were born abroad. Immigration figures show that tens
:47:25. > :47:38.of thousands of people have come to our region every
:47:39. > :47:40.year this decade. The most recent figure is a
:47:41. > :47:42.net 36,000 people coming Janet and Brian are regulars at
:47:43. > :47:46.the Clacton pavilion bowling alley. Immigration numbers
:47:47. > :47:49.are on their minds when it comes With the immigration,
:47:50. > :47:57.someone has got to stop the amount coming in here,
:47:58. > :47:59.or they have to be If Labour get in, they
:48:00. > :48:04.are more or less going In this area, it doesn't
:48:05. > :48:08.really affect us so much Clacton was a pretty safe and solid
:48:09. > :48:18.Conservative seat until 1997. In a wave of support
:48:19. > :48:21.for New Labour, Clacton went red. It wasn't until 2005 that
:48:22. > :48:24.Douglas Carswell took the seat Along came Ukip and Carswell stuck
:48:25. > :48:31.it to his party and defected, winning the seat for the purple
:48:32. > :48:37.party in 2014 and 2015. The dog days of the election
:48:38. > :48:40.campaign idea or stuck in the final straight,
:48:41. > :48:43.the Conservatives hope they can take back Clacton and make the political
:48:44. > :49:04.map of the East entirely blue. Let us have a look at what the
:49:05. > :49:06.parties are saying in their manifestos about immigration.
:49:07. > :49:08.The Conservatives say they will reduce net immigration...
:49:09. > :49:09.Labour accepts that freedom of movement
:49:10. > :49:16.will end when Britain leaves the EU and will...
:49:17. > :49:18...in areas where immigration has placed a strain on
:49:19. > :49:22.The Liberal Democrats also supports freedom of
:49:23. > :49:30.movement between the UK and EU and will...
:49:31. > :49:38...using an Australian-style points system and
:49:39. > :50:06.The Conservatives want to reduce annual net migration below 100,000?
:50:07. > :50:13.The flood were opens under Tony Blair. In the Conservative Party...
:50:14. > :50:19.There was an enormous amount of damage to be repaired and we have
:50:20. > :50:23.been trying to do that. I have said it for a long period of time, it
:50:24. > :50:32.needs to be controlled, control our borders properly, secure and get a
:50:33. > :50:35.grip. We are in danger, only six seats away, from Jeremy Corbyn
:50:36. > :50:40.taking the position of Prime Minister. We must not let that
:50:41. > :50:47.happen. If he got in, and open border. Absolutely not. The Labour
:50:48. > :51:00.manifesto says no free movement, no open borders. No cap on immigration,
:51:01. > :51:04.targets are bogus. What is the difference between not having a
:51:05. > :51:08.target and open doors? We are going to not have opened doors in the
:51:09. > :51:14.sense we will control immigration, restructure our immigration system
:51:15. > :51:18.so that we put in place controls that may have the impact of reducing
:51:19. > :51:22.the number of immigration. We are not going to say categorically we
:51:23. > :51:28.will get it to the tens of thousands if that is what the conservative
:51:29. > :51:34.placed in 2010, 2015, and in the last two years under Theresa May's
:51:35. > :51:46.watch, immigration reached high numbers. It is down at the moment?
:51:47. > :52:02.It is down at the moment. You want the Australian... The Australians
:52:03. > :52:08.like it very much. They do. Previous to Theresa May, under John Major,
:52:09. > :52:13.they got rid of controls. 20 years ago, the problem has been rising. We
:52:14. > :52:21.want to go back to the 50,000 per year coming in as then. Not quite
:52:22. > :52:29.one in one house. The nation is in debt, at least when John Major left
:52:30. > :52:40.office the balance in the budget was at a reasonable level. 5.9 billion
:52:41. > :52:47.it will cost? That is peanuts. There is an organisation who have said
:52:48. > :52:52.that, since the doors open to Eastern Europe, a gain of about ?9
:52:53. > :53:02.billion. In reality, that is ?1 per person per head for Britain. To be
:53:03. > :53:09.quite honest, I would rather pay ?1 per week for a seat into London on
:53:10. > :53:17.the train. That is not down to that. We have unemployment at 3.9% in the
:53:18. > :53:21.east. If you ask economists, they were Seiji percent is balanced
:53:22. > :53:27.unemployment. That is zero an appointment because most economists
:53:28. > :53:35.would agree that. -- zero unemployment. We have 25% of our
:53:36. > :53:44.doctors coming from other countries in this country. Over 3000 nurses
:53:45. > :53:49.vacancies. If he had the points-based system, the doctors
:53:50. > :54:05.would be allowed to stop one in, one out basis but will they ask people
:54:06. > :54:09.to volunteer to leave? We need unskilled labour in the farms in the
:54:10. > :54:16.eaves. That depresses the wages of people born here. It is not fine for
:54:17. > :54:22.the people without skills who already live here. We need to ensure
:54:23. > :54:32.we have the people we need and we want in this country. And get rid of
:54:33. > :54:36.those we do not need and want. The immigration system has been broken
:54:37. > :54:43.for a long time. No serious effort to control immigration. Huge numbers
:54:44. > :54:48.coming in under Tony Blair, perhaps over 10 million people. A new
:54:49. > :54:54.Greater London has to be built to house these people. Far from having
:54:55. > :54:57.a sustainable system, we have a system completely out of control.
:54:58. > :55:05.Theresa May in the last year of her time as head secretary N... Would
:55:06. > :55:12.you have no migration at all? We you have no migration at all? We
:55:13. > :55:17.think that mass uncontrolled immigration should be stopped. We
:55:18. > :55:22.are not in favour of a population replacement policy with one in, one
:55:23. > :55:26.out. We think what should be happening is a focus on English
:55:27. > :55:29.interests, and if you think about it, the point made about doctors and
:55:30. > :55:36.nurses, the reason why the British nurses, the reason why the British
:55:37. > :55:39.Government has been having them come in from abroad is because they
:55:40. > :55:44.failed to train enough of our own people. Is it possible that the
:55:45. > :55:48.reduction in immigration you talk about is a reflection of EU citizens
:55:49. > :55:55.given uncertain about living here because of the ramifications of the
:55:56. > :56:00.EU referendum? Under Theresa May's watch, 365,000, a record high
:56:01. > :56:04.immigration. Not saying we are going to have open borders, we are not,
:56:05. > :56:10.reform the immigration system, control borders, crackdown on
:56:11. > :56:16.unscrupulous employers with overseas recruitment policies. Are you saying
:56:17. > :56:23.those palmers -- farmers are unscrupulous? Everyone must pay
:56:24. > :56:30.minimum wage. We will not allow any overseas only recruitment. The
:56:31. > :56:35.people who bring people over two packer vegetables are unscrupulous?
:56:36. > :56:41.If you are undercutting wages and not paying minimum wage... I do not
:56:42. > :56:45.think we should have overseas only recruitment. They cannot get English
:56:46. > :56:53.people to get their vegetables baked. There is a simple reason,
:56:54. > :56:57.there is not the population in rural areas and English people do not want
:56:58. > :57:02.to live on the fourth of the season so it makes sense to bring people
:57:03. > :57:11.in. Another point -- just for the season. Our working population is
:57:12. > :57:17.falling and following so we do not have a working population to
:57:18. > :57:19.support... You are picking areas people are prepared to work for the
:57:20. > :57:27.wages, and they are perhaps robbing wages, and they are perhaps robbing
:57:28. > :57:32.those jobs of people born here. We certainly don't agree with low
:57:33. > :57:34.wages. We should enforce the minimum wage, rate it, a Green Party policy
:57:35. > :57:45.to have a Living Wage. Introduced by to have a Living Wage. Introduced by
:57:46. > :57:49.the Conservative Party. Before the doors open for immigration, we still
:57:50. > :57:53.got our fruit and vegetables baked in this country. The farmers are not
:57:54. > :57:59.being wicked, they are being rational. We have to move on. There
:58:00. > :58:02.are some independents standing. First and foremost, I am
:58:03. > :58:06.going to be the only honest MP If I do not know the answer,
:58:07. > :58:10.I will tell you. In Westminster, one of my main
:58:11. > :58:12.focuses is policing and crime. The judicial system now needs to be
:58:13. > :58:15.having mandatory sentences We are seeing so many police
:58:16. > :58:21.operate and arrest people, get them in the cells,
:58:22. > :58:25.all the money, all the work, straight
:58:26. > :58:27.to the courts - what happens? We now have to get the judicial
:58:28. > :58:36.system working alongside the police. I have spent the last four
:58:37. > :58:38.years studying my degree I want to offer that
:58:39. > :58:42.to the Government and make sure that the young people
:58:43. > :58:44.are being represented because it is about the huge
:58:45. > :58:46.decisions made about their future, and about where they are going
:58:47. > :58:49.to go, and industry in this country. We need to protect that
:58:50. > :58:52.and make sure we can get Now for our round-up
:58:53. > :59:02.of the political week in 60 Seconds The week began with the launch
:59:03. > :59:12.of the Green Party manifesto. You cannot say I will tackle air
:59:13. > :59:16.pollution and expand roads and expand airports -
:59:17. > :59:19.you have to make the right choices Conservatives carried on sending big
:59:20. > :59:24.names to North Norfolk, where they are fighting to take
:59:25. > :59:29.the seat from the Lib Dems. Security in this region was stepped
:59:30. > :59:32.up following the Manchester bombing, and the general election
:59:33. > :59:37.campaign was suspended. Vigils were held across the East
:59:38. > :59:43.in memory of the 22 people who died. The campaign resumed with the Ukip
:59:44. > :59:48.manifesto launch when I irate MEP Stuart Agnew rallied
:59:49. > :59:54.against journalists. But the party continues
:59:55. > :59:57.to maintain that it has real Are you honestly helpful of keeping
:59:58. > :00:02.Clacton, winning any But really, realistically,
:00:03. > :00:10.it is not likely, is it? Thank you very much.
:00:11. > :00:34.Thank you! Where the party fight to stop
:00:35. > :00:40.campaigning this week? The trouble is, with this great tragedy, it is
:00:41. > :00:46.very easy to feel emotional about it. And react in that way. The fact
:00:47. > :00:50.of the matter is that the reason why we had this tragedy does come back
:00:51. > :00:56.to a question we were discussing earlier about immigration and lack
:00:57. > :01:04.of control of it. It was the right call. Who has it helped? Have any of
:01:05. > :01:11.the parties gained? I do not think so. Mutual respect, for all those
:01:12. > :01:17.suffering and affected. It was the right call to have the brief pause.
:01:18. > :01:22.We were happy to delay the launch because it was right and proper. It
:01:23. > :01:27.was only until Thursday that much of the most important thing is that we
:01:28. > :01:32.cannot allow people to interrupt the process of our democracy. We cannot
:01:33. > :01:37.let people turn on our minorities because that is giving the
:01:38. > :01:41.terrorists exactly what they want. It was the most shocking of events
:01:42. > :01:46.and I think we all agree that we are horrified by that. We should never
:01:47. > :01:50.let that happen in this country and we need to catch those planning this
:01:51. > :01:55.sort of thing. On the day we suspended campaigning, I thought it
:01:56. > :01:58.was the right thing to do. Thank you for being here.
:01:59. > :02:02.we'll be back next week in the final week of the campaign.
:02:03. > :02:04.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:05. > :02:19.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:20. > :02:26.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:27. > :02:30.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:31. > :02:36.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:37. > :02:40.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:41. > :02:45.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:46. > :02:51.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:52. > :02:57.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:58. > :03:01.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:02. > :03:06.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:07. > :03:10.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:11. > :03:15.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:16. > :03:25.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:26. > :03:27.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:28. > :03:33.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:34. > :03:41.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:42. > :03:48.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:49. > :03:52.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:53. > :03:55.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:56. > :04:01.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:02. > :04:07.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:08. > :04:14.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:15. > :04:18.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:19. > :04:23.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:24. > :04:30.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:31. > :04:34.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:35. > :04:41.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:42. > :04:48.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:49. > :04:54.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:55. > :05:01.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:02. > :05:06.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:07. > :05:14.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:15. > :05:18.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:19. > :05:23.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:24. > :05:26.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:27. > :05:33.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:34. > :05:40.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:41. > :05:44.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:45. > :05:49.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:50. > :05:54.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:55. > :05:58.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:05:59. > :06:02.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:03. > :06:06.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:07. > :06:15.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:16. > :06:20.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:21. > :06:25.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:26. > :06:30.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:31. > :06:34.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:35. > :06:41.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:42. > :06:46.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:47. > :06:50.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:51. > :06:54.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:55. > :06:58.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:06:59. > :07:03.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:04. > :07:07.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:08. > :07:10.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:11. > :07:17.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:18. > :07:22.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:23. > :07:26.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:27. > :07:30.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:31. > :07:35.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:36. > :07:39.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:40. > :07:43.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:44. > :07:47.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:48. > :07:51.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:52. > :07:58.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:07:59. > :08:08.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:09. > :08:12.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:13. > :08:20.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:21. > :08:24.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:25. > :08:30.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:31. > :08:36.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:37. > :08:40.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:41. > :08:46.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:47. > :08:51.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:52. > :08:56.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:57. > :09:02.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:03. > :09:06.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:07. > :09:10.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:11. > :09:14.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:15. > :09:21.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:22. > :09:26.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:27. > :09:31.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:32. > :09:35.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:36. > :09:40.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:41. > :09:44.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:45. > :09:48.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:49. > :09:53.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:54. > :09:56.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:57. > :10:01.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:02. > :10:06.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:07. > :10:11.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:12. > :10:14.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:15. > :10:21.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:22. > :10:25.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:26. > :10:30.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:31. > :10:36.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:37. > :10:43.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:44. > :10:46.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:47. > :10:53.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:54. > :10:56.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:57. > :11:01.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:02. > :11:08.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:09. > :11:11.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:12. > :11:16.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:17. > :11:23.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:24. > :11:28.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:29. > :11:33.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:34. > :11:45.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:46. > :11:49.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:50. > :12:02.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:03. > :12:07.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:08. > :12:11.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:12. > :12:14.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:15. > :12:19.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:20. > :12:23.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:24. > :12:30.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:31. > :12:37.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:38. > :12:45.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:46. > :12:48.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:49. > :12:53.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:54. > :12:57.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:58. > :13:01.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:02. > :13:05.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:06. > :13:12.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:13. > :13:18.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:19. > :13:23.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:24. > :13:29.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:30. > :13:34.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:35. > :14:09.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.
:14:10. > :14:11.As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them
:14:12. > :14:21.the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.
:14:22. > :14:22.One minute to get the food on the plate.
:14:23. > :14:27...team them up with a Michelin starred chef,
:14:28. > :14:34.putting their reputation on the line.
:14:35. > :14:37...which team will have the recipe for success?