05/11/2017

0:00:37 > 0:00:39Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:44 > 0:00:45of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:45 > 0:00:48On today's show:

0:00:48 > 0:00:51Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:51 > 0:00:57police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:57 > 0:01:00He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:00 > 0:01:03With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:03 > 0:01:05can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:05 > 0:01:07to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:07 > 0:01:11the entire political class?

0:01:11 > 0:01:18We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:18 > 0:01:27And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:27 > 0:01:27Growing have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:27 > 0:01:28Growing concern have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:28 > 0:01:28Growing concern over have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:28 > 0:01:28Growing concern over who have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:28 > 0:01:29Growing concern over who will have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:29 > 0:01:31Growing concern over who will harvest our crops as Brexit gets

0:01:31 > 0:01:31closer.

0:01:45 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:49to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:49 > 0:01:51and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:51 > 0:01:53a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:53 > 0:01:54gunpowder and treason.

0:01:54 > 0:01:57It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:08Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:08 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:19of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:19 > 0:02:21police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:21 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:27police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:27 > 0:02:35and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:35 > 0:02:38Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:38 > 0:02:40over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:40 > 0:02:46he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:46 > 0:02:48Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:48 > 0:02:55misconduct allegations.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:58 > 0:03:00on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:00 > 0:03:08Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:08 > 0:03:10And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:10 > 0:03:13with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:13 > 0:03:15of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:17 > 0:03:20she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:20 > 0:03:22against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:22 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:34terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:34 > 0:03:36that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:36 > 0:03:45better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:45 > 0:03:47respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:47 > 0:03:54can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:58 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:13is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:13 > 0:04:16makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:19 > 0:04:23actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:23 > 0:04:25deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:25 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:47bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:50 > 0:04:53allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:53 > 0:04:59being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:59 > 0:05:02were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:02 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:11strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:11 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:19beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:19 > 0:05:23whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:23 > 0:05:27relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:27 > 0:05:33rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:36 > 0:05:42moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:42 > 0:05:45bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:45 > 0:05:49do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:49 > 0:05:53not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:53 > 0:05:59computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:59 > 0:06:03would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:03 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:20Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:20 > 0:06:26It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:26 > 0:06:30without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:30 > 0:06:34scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:34 > 0:06:38Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:38 > 0:06:46suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:46 > 0:06:49may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:49 > 0:06:52alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:52 > 0:06:56in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:56 > 0:06:59meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:59 > 0:07:02there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:10and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:10 > 0:07:13every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:13 > 0:07:17her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:17 > 0:07:22she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:22 > 0:07:25support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:25 > 0:07:28Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:28 > 0:07:32inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:32 > 0:07:38the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:38 > 0:07:40the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:40 > 0:07:4410,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:44 > 0:07:48work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:48 > 0:07:50regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:50 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:03actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:03 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:10the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:10 > 0:08:16it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:16 > 0:08:19sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:19 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:28between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:28 > 0:08:33chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:33 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:43the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:43 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:49they might be regulated.

0:08:49 > 0:08:52Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:52 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:57 > 0:08:58counterparts this week.

0:08:58 > 0:09:01We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:01 > 0:09:03she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:06 > 0:09:09talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:09 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:16Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:16 > 0:09:19morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:19 > 0:09:26should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:26 > 0:09:32has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:32 > 0:09:37is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:37 > 0:09:39ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:39 > 0:09:44properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:44 > 0:09:49that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:49 > 0:09:55investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:55 > 0:09:59and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:09:59 > 0:10:03important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:03 > 0:10:06test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:06 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:14exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:14 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:22range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:22 > 0:10:26Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:26 > 0:10:32environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:32 > 0:10:34or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:34 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:41transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:41 > 0:10:45bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:45 > 0:10:51Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:51 > 0:10:56the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:56 > 0:11:04can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:04 > 0:11:08House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:08 > 0:11:13well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:13 > 0:11:17thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:17 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:27Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:27 > 0:11:31year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:31 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:39it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:39 > 0:11:45experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:45 > 0:11:48yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:48 > 0:11:52certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:52 > 0:11:57as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:57 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:07authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:07 > 0:12:15people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:15 > 0:12:18misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:18 > 0:12:22brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:22 > 0:12:27in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:27 > 0:12:30didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:30 > 0:12:37hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:37 > 0:12:40flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:40 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:51the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:51 > 0:12:54urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:54 > 0:12:58have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:58 > 0:13:02do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:02 > 0:13:05clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:05 > 0:13:11right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:11 > 0:13:16and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:16 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:24sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:24 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:34use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:34 > 0:13:38find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:38 > 0:13:41of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:41 > 0:13:49politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:49 > 0:13:52companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:56 > 0:14:00with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:00 > 0:14:05step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:05 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:14 > 0:14:18terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:18 > 0:14:21and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:21 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:32the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:32 > 0:14:35children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:35 > 0:14:42of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:42 > 0:14:45the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:45 > 0:14:48undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:48 > 0:14:51justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:51 > 0:14:55support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:55 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:03need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:03 > 0:15:06us today.

0:15:06 > 0:15:07Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:07 > 0:15:12saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:12 > 0:15:15of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:15 > 0:15:17And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:17 > 0:15:19when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:19 > 0:15:21newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:21 > 0:15:26Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:26 > 0:15:28It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:28 > 0:15:31of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:31 > 0:15:33is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:33 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:38of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:38 > 0:15:40greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:40 > 0:15:47to work with them.

0:15:47 > 0:15:49Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:49 > 0:15:52at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:52 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:55in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:55 > 0:15:57is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:57 > 0:15:59over the next ten years.

0:15:59 > 0:16:01The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:01 > 0:16:04which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:04 > 0:16:05while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:05 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:12And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:12 > 0:16:15what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:15 > 0:16:17and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:17 > 0:16:18like Trident and Nato.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:20 > 0:16:23secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:23 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:30secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:30 > 0:16:35Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:35 > 0:16:39same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:39 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:48and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:48 > 0:16:55of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:55 > 0:16:57Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:57 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:10Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:10 > 0:17:14cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:14 > 0:17:18more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:18 > 0:17:23In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:23 > 0:17:26McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:26 > 0:17:32using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:32 > 0:17:37Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:37 > 0:17:42it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:42 > 0:17:47whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:47 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:56pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:56 > 0:17:59on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:59 > 0:18:01Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:01 > 0:18:07Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:07 > 0:18:11about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:11 > 0:18:16last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:16 > 0:18:21very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:21 > 0:18:26and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:26 > 0:18:30commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:30 > 0:18:36In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:36 > 0:18:40extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:40 > 0:18:43calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:43 > 0:18:48are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:48 > 0:18:53kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:57are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:57 > 0:19:02a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:02 > 0:19:08spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:08 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:16pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:16 > 0:19:21about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:21 > 0:19:24current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:24 > 0:19:29overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:29 > 0:19:35at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:35 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:47£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:47 > 0:19:51it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:51 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:01make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:01 > 0:20:04been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:04 > 0:20:11on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:11 > 0:20:14weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:14 > 0:20:20already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:20 > 0:20:23The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:23 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:33treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:33 > 0:20:40incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:40 > 0:20:45to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:45 > 0:20:48missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:48 > 0:20:53nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:53 > 0:20:57that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:57 > 0:21:01somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:01 > 0:21:06world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:06 > 0:21:10proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:10 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:21have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:21 > 0:21:26disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:26 > 0:21:29else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:29 > 0:21:34have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:34 > 0:21:40will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:40 > 0:21:45need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:45 > 0:21:48multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:48 > 0:21:51eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:51 > 0:21:55to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:55 > 0:21:58I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:58 > 0:22:03aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:03 > 0:22:09from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:09 > 0:22:13understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:13 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:22use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:22 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:30Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:30 > 0:22:33know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:33 > 0:22:40it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:40 > 0:22:45changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:45 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:54is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:54 > 0:22:57Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:57 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:08that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:08 > 0:23:13stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:13 > 0:23:18sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:18 > 0:23:22Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:22 > 0:23:25your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:25 > 0:23:29whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:29 > 0:23:34Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:34 > 0:23:36why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:36 > 0:23:41important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:41 > 0:23:46happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:46 > 0:23:50position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:50 > 0:23:57has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:57 > 0:24:02has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:02 > 0:24:05the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:05 > 0:24:09have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:09 > 0:24:15did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:15 > 0:24:20speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:20 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:28who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:28 > 0:24:32be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:32 > 0:24:36this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:36 > 0:24:41with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:41 > 0:24:44prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:44 > 0:24:49it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:49 > 0:24:53treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:53 > 0:24:58they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:58 > 0:25:03making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:03 > 0:25:07was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:07 > 0:25:14it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:14 > 0:25:20Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:20 > 0:25:24of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:24 > 0:25:30ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:30 > 0:25:32independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:32 > 0:25:36nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:36 > 0:25:41friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:41 > 0:25:46and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:46 > 0:25:50friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:50 > 0:25:55can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:55 > 0:25:58important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:58 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:08party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:08 > 0:26:08to us

0:26:08 > 0:26:10For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:10 > 0:26:12on the left of politics,

0:26:12 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:18plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:18 > 0:26:21ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:21 > 0:26:23and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:25 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:31 > 0:26:33The 7th November 1917.

0:26:33 > 0:26:37Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:37 > 0:26:42Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:42 > 0:26:44This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:44 > 0:26:47because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:47 > 0:26:50was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:50 > 0:26:54The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:54 > 0:26:59The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:59 > 0:27:01of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:01 > 0:27:05Then war.

0:27:05 > 0:27:10Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:10 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:21The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:21 > 0:27:24October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:24 > 0:27:28asserting their authority.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:33 > 0:27:36there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:36 > 0:27:40celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:40 > 0:27:42Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:42 > 0:27:45this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:45 > 0:27:49the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:49 > 0:27:50the discourse of history.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:56 > 0:27:58I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:58 > 0:28:01Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:01 > 0:28:04was chairing the opening session.

0:28:04 > 0:28:07He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:07 > 0:28:13to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:13 > 0:28:16TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:16 > 0:28:19which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:19 > 0:28:21and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:21 > 0:28:25A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:25 > 0:28:27We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:27 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:31from the Cold War period.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:35 > 0:28:38The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:38 > 0:28:41of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:41 > 0:28:44and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:44 > 0:28:48But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:48 > 0:28:52the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:52 > 0:28:54We wanted to have this conference

0:28:54 > 0:28:57because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:57 > 0:29:01Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:01 > 0:29:05the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:05 > 0:29:08of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:09 > 0:29:13Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:16 > 0:29:20But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:20 > 0:29:24camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:24 > 0:29:28of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:28 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:35 > 0:29:37So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:37 > 0:29:39for celebration, or regret?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:41 > 0:29:47and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:47 > 0:29:52Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:52 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:30:00revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:00 > 0:30:03truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:03 > 0:30:11wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:11 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:22elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:22 > 0:30:27his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:27 > 0:30:31Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:31 > 0:30:34former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:34 > 0:30:42true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:42 > 0:30:46the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:46 > 0:30:55Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:55 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:12Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:12 > 0:31:19And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:19 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:22 > 0:31:28years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:28 > 0:31:33in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:33 > 0:31:35cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:35 > 0:31:52Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:52 > 0:31:58was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:58 > 0:32:02brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:02 > 0:32:06I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:06 > 0:32:09why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:09 > 0:32:12misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:12 > 0:32:15possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:15 > 0:32:21and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:21 > 0:32:23intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:23 > 0:32:27to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:27 > 0:32:32acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:32 > 0:32:35statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:35 > 0:32:42labour

0:32:42 > 0:32:48camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:48 > 0:32:52Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:52 > 0:32:56never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:56 > 0:33:01celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:01 > 0:33:05events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:05 > 0:33:10decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:10 > 0:33:13is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:13 > 0:33:18earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:18 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:28China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:28 > 0:33:33people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:33 > 0:33:38system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:38 > 0:33:42despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:42 > 0:33:45mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:45 > 0:33:49which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:49 > 0:33:54Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:54 > 0:33:58complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:58 > 0:34:04about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:04 > 0:34:07events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:07 > 0:34:12the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:12 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:30in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:30 > 0:34:37mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:37 > 0:34:39has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:39 > 0:34:45Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:48 > 0:34:55second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:55 > 0:34:58not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:58 > 0:35:04would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:04 > 0:35:10and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:10 > 0:35:14discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:14 > 0:35:21Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:21 > 0:35:26world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:26 > 0:35:31and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:31 > 0:35:34Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:34 > 0:35:40You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:40 > 0:35:46Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:46 > 0:35:53Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:53 > 0:35:57disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:57 > 0:36:02Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:02 > 0:36:05would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:05 > 0:36:11for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:11 > 0:36:172008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:17 > 0:36:22Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:22 > 0:36:31Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:31 > 0:36:39not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:39 > 0:36:43Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:43 > 0:36:49them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:49 > 0:36:52need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:52 > 0:36:59possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:59 > 0:37:07is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:07 > 0:37:12by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:12 > 0:37:161949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:16 > 0:37:19leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:19 > 0:37:25economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:25 > 0:37:29they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:29 > 0:37:31country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:31 > 0:37:35don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:35 > 0:37:39of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:39 > 0:37:43not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:43 > 0:37:48the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:48 > 0:37:52own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:52 > 0:37:55in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:55 > 0:37:58to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:58 > 0:38:01not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:01 > 0:38:06and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:06 > 0:38:12has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:12 > 0:38:18go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:18 > 0:38:20truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:20 > 0:38:23that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:23 > 0:38:26told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:26 > 0:38:30been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:30 > 0:38:34it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:34 > 0:38:39question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:39 > 0:38:43London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:43 > 0:38:46celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:46 > 0:38:51is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:51 > 0:38:55celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:55 > 0:39:00the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:00 > 0:39:06the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:06 > 0:39:08thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:08 > 0:39:13rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:13 > 0:39:17people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:17 > 0:39:23Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:23 > 0:39:30succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:30 > 0:39:37the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:37 > 0:39:41kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:41 > 0:39:47Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:47 > 0:39:49for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:50 > 0:39:51You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:51 > 0:39:54Coming up on the programme:

0:39:54 > 0:39:57We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:57 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:00 > 0:40:02It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:02 > 0:40:04We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:04 > 0:40:05does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:16 > 0:40:21Hello and welcome to Sunday politics east. Later in the programme, fears

0:40:21 > 0:40:27grow over bringing our crops in from the fields in the future.We have

0:40:27 > 0:40:31had double the number of early leavers, double the number of people

0:40:31 > 0:40:38who we have offered jobs to and not showing up.Suspended funds, an

0:40:38 > 0:40:41investigation, a report pending. The sorry state of a local enterprise

0:40:41 > 0:40:51partnership.

0:40:54 > 0:41:00Welcome, my guests this morning. It has been a difficult week in

0:41:00 > 0:41:05Westminster with claims of sexual harassment. The Defence Secretary

0:41:05 > 0:41:09has resigned and Kelvin Hopkins has been suspended from the Labour Party

0:41:09 > 0:41:13while an investigation takes place after allegations were made against

0:41:13 > 0:41:18him. What is it like that Westminster at the moment? Do all

0:41:18 > 0:41:23the MPs feel under pressure?I don't think the atmosphere is anything

0:41:23 > 0:41:28like as bad as what you might get the impression from the newspapers

0:41:28 > 0:41:32but obviously it has been a troubling week and the fact that

0:41:32 > 0:41:35there is sexual harassment and bullying going on and it appears to

0:41:35 > 0:41:40have been tolerated and in some cases reported and nothing has been

0:41:40 > 0:41:45done, it is not a party thing, is very troubling. There is bullying

0:41:45 > 0:41:49and sexual harassment in every workplace. There is probably sexual

0:41:49 > 0:41:54harassment in the BBC and every employer. It is not surprising it is

0:41:54 > 0:41:58airing parliament. We have the added dimension in Parliament of older

0:41:58 > 0:42:02people who are seen to have authority and younger people working

0:42:02 > 0:42:07around them that may feel vulnerable. That places an extra

0:42:07 > 0:42:12obligation on people to be respectful and be very careful and

0:42:12 > 0:42:15plainly not everybody has been. It is wrong and it is a good thing it

0:42:15 > 0:42:20is coming to light but it is still not pleasant.Somebody who would

0:42:20 > 0:42:25like to go there, what is your reaction?There is a sense of

0:42:25 > 0:42:29surprise that there are no workplace policies and trade unions are not

0:42:29 > 0:42:33more involved. This is what we see in the workplace is I go end. There

0:42:33 > 0:42:43is a clear reporting direction. People know what to do.In a lot of

0:42:43 > 0:42:48these cases, these are consenting adults.Well, are they? That is the

0:42:48 > 0:42:52question. It would appeal they are not all consenting adults and that

0:42:52 > 0:42:55is the issue. If they are consenting adults then there is nothing wrong

0:42:55 > 0:43:00with it.And this issue about Kelvin Hopkins being promoted even though

0:43:00 > 0:43:04people knew about the allegations which were made against him. What is

0:43:04 > 0:43:11your reaction?It is a sense of disappointment. It is not the Kelvin

0:43:11 > 0:43:14Hopkins that I thought that I knew. We don't know what type of

0:43:14 > 0:43:18investigation took place and what actions took place. My understanding

0:43:18 > 0:43:24is initially the person concerned was satisfied at the outcome but

0:43:24 > 0:43:28that seems to have changed now.Do you think this is destabilising for

0:43:28 > 0:43:35the Conservative Party and the government?It does not help. There

0:43:35 > 0:43:40may be more revelations to come in the days and weeks ahead. But I

0:43:40 > 0:43:48think every so often we the British go in for a bout of the brow

0:43:48 > 0:43:54hysteria and quite often there is something to it. In the expenses

0:43:54 > 0:43:57crisis, it was over something and this is over something as well but

0:43:57 > 0:44:01you do get the conflation of two different things, serious

0:44:01 > 0:44:06allegations on the one hand and things that are actually perfectly

0:44:06 > 0:44:09private matters, consensual relations between adults, on the

0:44:09 > 0:44:13other. But because it makes good copy in the tabloid newspapers, it

0:44:13 > 0:44:17all gets put in the same hop around before you know it, you have an

0:44:17 > 0:44:22atmosphere in which people feel they say -- they cannot do or say

0:44:22 > 0:44:27anything in case they get reported. If you are not careful, it is in

0:44:27 > 0:44:30danger of becoming an overreaction but I don't want to give the

0:44:30 > 0:44:35impression I don't think this is serious. It is serious.Any idea

0:44:35 > 0:44:42where the allegations are coming from?Personally, no. There is this

0:44:42 > 0:44:47idea of this what's up group, with staff sharing information, which is

0:44:47 > 0:44:50perhaps a good thing, that this information is available and people

0:44:50 > 0:44:54have different interests on both sides in fostering a problem for the

0:44:54 > 0:45:00other side.We will move on. Let's look at farming now and there

0:45:00 > 0:45:05is growing concern about who will pick our crops. A shortage of

0:45:05 > 0:45:07foreign workers Haaretz already cost one of our biggest companies £1

0:45:07 > 0:45:14million. The crisis has deepened this summer with a call for a clear

0:45:14 > 0:45:19plan from the government after Brexit.

0:45:19 > 0:45:23This nursery grows 400 tonnes of strawberries each year for a leading

0:45:23 > 0:45:30supermarket.Strawberries ripen at different types, different shades

0:45:30 > 0:45:35are red. Supermarkets are discerning about the quality and the ripeness

0:45:35 > 0:45:38of the strawberries, so it needs the human eye, as far as we are

0:45:38 > 0:45:43concerned.But this quintessentially British fruit is picked by seasonal

0:45:43 > 0:45:49workers, mostly from Romania and Bulgaria.The difference after they

0:45:49 > 0:45:54start to vote for Brexit is that the pound goes so slow, so low in

0:45:54 > 0:45:58Romania, for example, before people start to talk about Brexit, it was

0:45:58 > 0:46:076.3. And now it is 5.2. Something like that. We are losing quite a lot

0:46:07 > 0:46:17of money.That is the only problem for now for us.The nursery works

0:46:17 > 0:46:20hard to have good working conditions and retain staff but they want

0:46:20 > 0:46:25reassurances from the government. There is this cliff edge that is

0:46:25 > 0:46:29creeping up on us and we are not quite sure how it will pan out. We

0:46:29 > 0:46:32would like there to be something in place as soon as possible so that we

0:46:32 > 0:46:38have some sort of certainty on how we can obtain foreign workers, like

0:46:38 > 0:46:44a seasonal scheme, just so that we have guarantees in the years ahead

0:46:44 > 0:46:49of obtaining the rights of the people.The seasonal worker scheme

0:46:49 > 0:46:53operated until 2013 and meant that farmers could employ workers from

0:46:53 > 0:46:56around the world on special short-term visas. The farming

0:46:56 > 0:47:00industry would like the scheme reintroduced sooner rather than

0:47:00 > 0:47:06later but the government says net migration figures show there are

0:47:06 > 0:47:11plenty of workers. The government is carrying out reviews but one of the

0:47:11 > 0:47:15biggest growers in the UK says the uncertainty is already costing them.

0:47:15 > 0:47:22We have had double the number of early leavers and people who we have

0:47:22 > 0:47:27offered jobs to and not showing up. If current trends continue, there is

0:47:27 > 0:47:30a serious probability that we don't -- we won't have enough workers next

0:47:30 > 0:47:37year.The evidence from our members, the growers, is that we could be

0:47:37 > 0:47:42reaching a crunch point next year. I know of farmers that are reducing

0:47:42 > 0:47:46the size of their businesses and the last thing we want as we leave the

0:47:46 > 0:47:49European Union is to export our farming horticulture and food

0:47:49 > 0:47:54business overseas.It is not just seasonal workers that farmers are

0:47:54 > 0:47:59concerned about. Tom Bradshaw owns hectors of farmland in Essex and is

0:47:59 > 0:48:04part of a group of people this group has brought together to discuss the

0:48:04 > 0:48:09effects Brexit on their industry. This crop of wheat was harvested in

0:48:09 > 0:48:14August and might not be sold until May this year. It is likely to be in

0:48:14 > 0:48:19the shed until May 2019, that is after Brexit. We need some sort of

0:48:19 > 0:48:25clarity as to the direction we should be heading in.As they wait

0:48:25 > 0:48:29for answers, many farmers like Tom are taking matters into their own

0:48:29 > 0:48:33hands and diversifying their business.We set up an equestrian

0:48:33 > 0:48:38centre. We only riding school as well. And now we are looking at

0:48:38 > 0:48:48other income screens STREAMS. Make as less reliant on support going

0:48:48 > 0:48:54forward. We are looking at the opportunity of a swimming pool.

0:48:54 > 0:48:59The Brexit negotiations may be plodding on but farmers planning for

0:48:59 > 0:49:06next year may continue to press the government for more urgent answers.

0:49:06 > 0:49:10The government says it recognises a strong workforce is crucial for

0:49:10 > 0:49:13agriculture and has commissioned advice from the migration advisory

0:49:13 > 0:49:19committee. This week the Secretary of State Michael Gove was asked

0:49:19 > 0:49:26about food prices after Brexit.To focus purely on the process of

0:49:26 > 0:49:30leaving the European Union, the moment at which we leave and the

0:49:30 > 0:49:34creation of tariffs as having a decisive impact on food prices in

0:49:34 > 0:49:38the absence of everything else is to look at only one part of the

0:49:38 > 0:49:49landscape. Is he right? Well, yes, I think

0:49:49 > 0:49:54there is a growing concern there and certainly in our area when we look

0:49:54 > 0:49:57at fisheries and food processing, there is very little margin for

0:49:57 > 0:50:03profit. And bringing in different tariffs could prove significantly

0:50:03 > 0:50:10detrimental.You both operate in Norfolk and Norfolk has a lot of

0:50:10 > 0:50:14migrant workers coming in. This is a problem which some people were

0:50:14 > 0:50:18talking about before the Brexit vote.The scheme which was mentioned

0:50:18 > 0:50:23in your package has been running for 60 years. It would be relatively

0:50:23 > 0:50:28easy to set it up again. Farmers preferred it because they get a Visa

0:50:28 > 0:50:31for a particular workplace and period and when you have completely

0:50:31 > 0:50:35free movement, people have earned enough money and they disappear for

0:50:35 > 0:50:41a few weeks and they cannot get the continuity of supplies. In some

0:50:41 > 0:50:43ways, having a scheme like this is actually better and I suspect that

0:50:43 > 0:50:48is where we will end up. Personally I think it would have been sensible

0:50:48 > 0:50:52to keep it in place and now we are going to have Brexit, it may come

0:50:52 > 0:51:02back at some point.And you actually overriding the Greek holiday?The

0:51:02 > 0:51:06continuity of supply is likely to be higher if you have got a Visa that

0:51:06 > 0:51:10only applies to a specific workplace for a specific duration. Farmers

0:51:10 > 0:51:14have said to me they prefer that. One of the fundamental issues you

0:51:14 > 0:51:17are not taking on board is that people are choosing not to come here

0:51:17 > 0:51:21to work because the value of the pound is not as good as it used to

0:51:21 > 0:51:26be. We are going to face difficulties.It is a whole range of

0:51:26 > 0:51:31different issues. One of the advantages... You have highlighted a

0:51:31 > 0:51:38disadvantage. One of the advantages is that it is easier to exporter and

0:51:38 > 0:51:41given that we import three times more food than we export, that will

0:51:41 > 0:51:45help create that balance. I am hoping we will come to a point where

0:51:45 > 0:51:50we start to produce more of our own food.But there will be no one to

0:51:50 > 0:51:55pick it.Eventually, people will have to do pay more to attract

0:51:55 > 0:51:59workers and the price of food will go up. Since we have been facing

0:51:59 > 0:52:05tariffs from New Zealand, Africa, in order to keep African farmers poor

0:52:05 > 0:52:10while having French farmers get rich in essence, actually... Paddy

0:52:10 > 0:52:14Ashdown was campaigning for a 90 said we would have lower food prices

0:52:14 > 0:52:19if we left the EU and he was right. That is one of the points. We are

0:52:19 > 0:52:23seeing farming industry is looking to diversify and it could be they

0:52:23 > 0:52:27are not going to continue.It is good thing to have a diversify

0:52:27 > 0:52:35model. The farmer in the package, the last thing he should do is

0:52:35 > 0:52:38consult government. He should figure it out. It is a business decision

0:52:38 > 0:52:46for him.They want certainty.And they are not getting it. They can't

0:52:46 > 0:52:52have it happen more.They are in business. As you will know, most of

0:52:52 > 0:52:56the subsidies that have been coming through the EU, and the government

0:52:56 > 0:53:00is committed to maintaining them for the next five years, have been

0:53:00 > 0:53:06environment protection schemes. The way you decide whether or not to

0:53:06 > 0:53:10produce food is if you can sell it and that is the way it should be.At

0:53:10 > 0:53:13the moment, we all benefit from being part of the single market but

0:53:13 > 0:53:16that is good change. We don't know what tariffs are going to be in

0:53:16 > 0:53:26place. I think there is a genuine risk of food prices going up. In

0:53:26 > 0:53:29Norfolk and Suffolk 41% of the people that do the seafood

0:53:29 > 0:53:35processing are from the EU. Without them there to deliver this service,

0:53:35 > 0:53:43it is inevitable that food prices will increase.Since we import far

0:53:43 > 0:53:46more food than we export, if what we say about tariffs is true, it will

0:53:46 > 0:53:50hit the imports far harder than it will hit exports and it will

0:53:50 > 0:53:55encourage the British farming sector to grow.It will still mean an

0:53:55 > 0:54:01increase in the price of food.Not necessarily. We produce 60% of our

0:54:01 > 0:54:06own food. It has been a bad thing. Having a situation where we can

0:54:06 > 0:54:09actually control our own industry rather than having to obey rules

0:54:09 > 0:54:21fungal disease is a good thing for British farming.

0:54:22 > 0:54:26It all started seven months ago when the Cambridgeshire MP Stephen

0:54:26 > 0:54:34Berkley raised questions about an enterprise was being run. An enquiry

0:54:34 > 0:54:40was set up. The government froze nearly £38 million which should have

0:54:40 > 0:54:42gone there while the investigation took place. Some businesses may have

0:54:42 > 0:54:55suffered. Last month, the mayor said he should take over a report by the

0:54:55 > 0:55:03National Audit Office is expected later this month. The mayor has

0:55:03 > 0:55:06acknowledged he and the LEP do not see eye to eye and he would like to

0:55:06 > 0:55:11see a shared executive.We are in the situation we are in and the

0:55:11 > 0:55:14money is not available and that means we have got to deal with the

0:55:14 > 0:55:19problems. We are trying to sort this situation. We want to sort the

0:55:19 > 0:55:24situation. The options have been put forward. What we are trying to do is

0:55:24 > 0:55:29make sure the money comes from government into the business and the

0:55:29 > 0:55:37surrounding area. We are trained to do the right thing and move on.

0:55:37 > 0:55:43The chairman of the LEP couldn't join us today but all that he is

0:55:43 > 0:55:46confident the LEP has been compliant since July and has nothing to add to

0:55:46 > 0:55:49what he said last month when he was asked if he was embarrassed about

0:55:49 > 0:55:54the situation.I am not embarrassed by it at all. They should be

0:55:54 > 0:55:59embarrassed. They should be embarrassed by causing this

0:55:59 > 0:56:02situation and causing the problems they have cause. Our position is

0:56:02 > 0:56:09straightforward. There is no grounds for the proposition. Why would we be

0:56:09 > 0:56:15embarrassed?Do we need a LEP one-day mayor?It might be a good

0:56:15 > 0:56:23idea if they became one. When the idea was brought forward, which was

0:56:23 > 0:56:26controversial, some people were arguing that with the police and

0:56:26 > 0:56:32Fire Commissioner, it would be five layers of government. The idea was

0:56:32 > 0:56:36that the local enterprise partnership eventually became the

0:56:36 > 0:56:39bureaucracy, the infrastructure and the funding for a directly elected

0:56:39 > 0:56:44mayor, that should be the direction of travel. It has not been gripped

0:56:44 > 0:56:52with enough confidence and there have been a look of -- a lot of

0:56:52 > 0:57:00local opposition.I actually think that the chaotic way that the LEPs

0:57:00 > 0:57:03setup goes to show this is undemocratic and these chickens are

0:57:03 > 0:57:13now coming home to roost.The mayor is democratically elected.You don't

0:57:13 > 0:57:21have one in Norfolk but if the... You would not mind therefore if he

0:57:21 > 0:57:26took on the role?I am uncomfortable with the position of mayor because I

0:57:26 > 0:57:31think we have too many layers of government. What happens to our

0:57:31 > 0:57:35democratically elected councillors? This is millions and millions of

0:57:35 > 0:57:40pounds coming into our area and it is not being spent, it is not open,

0:57:40 > 0:57:46not transparent. I am not confident that the mayor is a position that we

0:57:46 > 0:57:51should be having. We have a system in place at the moment, counsellors,

0:57:51 > 0:57:54borough councillors, county councillors. But they are far more

0:57:54 > 0:58:01in touch with what is happening in their local communities. The overall

0:58:01 > 0:58:06area of control for the mayor is massive.We do have problems with

0:58:06 > 0:58:14LEPs across the region? I think they vary.

0:58:14 > 0:58:16There are bigger problems with the Greater Cambridge and Peterborough

0:58:16 > 0:58:21one. The National office have worked with them for 16 years and it is not

0:58:21 > 0:58:28likely launch enquiries and it has done so in this case. The board

0:58:28 > 0:58:32minutes of the LEP say there are serious concerns there has been a

0:58:32 > 0:58:35breakdown of confidence by central government in the LEP and that is a

0:58:35 > 0:58:39serious breakdown of confidence. There is a case to answer. We will

0:58:39 > 0:58:45await with interest the conclusion of the report.You think the one in

0:58:45 > 0:58:49Norfolk and Suffolk has done quite well but you are not quite sure.

0:58:49 > 0:58:53Absolutely. I don't see a significant impact of it. As I said

0:58:53 > 0:58:59before, we have a low-income economy and we have the biggest income

0:58:59 > 0:59:02inequality in Norfolk and Suffolk and so I don't see that the positive

0:59:02 > 0:59:08impact that you are talking about from the LEP.I think both of you

0:59:08 > 0:59:13say you may do without the LEP eventually?Not necessarily. I

0:59:13 > 0:59:16personally would like to see it under a democratically accountable

0:59:16 > 0:59:23head. We have 414 councillors in Norfolk and that is not including

0:59:23 > 0:59:29the parish councillors. It feels a bit top-heavy to me. I think we need

0:59:29 > 0:59:34streamlining and reform and the LEP should be under the control of a

0:59:34 > 0:59:40democratically elected figure and I personally like the idea of a

0:59:40 > 0:59:49democratically elected mayor, but it needs the support of local people.

0:59:49 > 0:59:52There is the need for greater infrastructure funding. We know how

0:59:52 > 1:00:01terrible the roads are.OK. Now for our round-up of the political week

1:00:01 > 1:00:12in 60 seconds.

1:00:13 > 1:00:18Turmoil on Great Yarmouth Council. Seven out of 12 Ukip councillors

1:00:18 > 1:00:20defected to the Conservatives who took overall control of the council

1:00:20 > 1:00:26this week.Very proud of the achievements that Ukip made but I

1:00:26 > 1:00:31feel now we are not getting any direction from head office. And I

1:00:31 > 1:00:36feel that I need to be with a party that is good to follow the Brexit

1:00:36 > 1:00:39fold.Northamptonshire County Council has banned new stationery

1:00:39 > 1:00:44orders and colour printing according to a leaked e-mail. MPs have held a

1:00:44 > 1:00:47emergency meeting with the Local Government Secretary about the

1:00:47 > 1:00:51financial crisis. The Police Commissioner for Essex has made a

1:00:51 > 1:00:56plea for more money to help the service tackle crime, particularly

1:00:56 > 1:01:00terrorism. Roger Hurst was addressing the national confidence

1:01:00 > 1:01:04that conference of Police and Crime Commissioners.We are asking a lot

1:01:04 > 1:01:10of the officers and staff at the moment.And Norwich MP Clive Lewis

1:01:10 > 1:01:20came to the speaker 's attention and not in a good way.Mr Lewis...I am

1:01:20 > 1:01:24sure what is on your iPhone is important but your question is of

1:01:24 > 1:01:31greater importance. Get in there, man.

1:01:31 > 1:01:40You MPs just love that. Being told off by the speaker.

1:01:40 > 1:01:45The police thing is an interesting thing because they are reaching a

1:01:45 > 1:01:51point now where they don't feel they are doing the job well enough.I was

1:01:51 > 1:01:54always slightly sceptical about it because to me it felt a little bit

1:01:54 > 1:01:58like trying to do it on the cheap. They weren't cheap. That's the

1:01:58 > 1:02:04problem.It partly depends on the kind of philosophy of the top man or

1:02:04 > 1:02:09woman, the chief cancelled, and we had a chief cancelled that believed

1:02:09 > 1:02:14in them passionately and now we have one that does not. I like police

1:02:14 > 1:02:18officers that can chase people and arrest people.The point we are

1:02:18 > 1:02:21making with Roger Hurst was actually that they cannot plan for the

1:02:21 > 1:02:27future. It is all about intelligence work.Absolutely and without the PC

1:02:27 > 1:02:30SO being there in the community, they are going to miss that

1:02:30 > 1:02:35intelligence. For many of our communities, they are the only

1:02:35 > 1:02:44visible faces that they see.In Norfolk, they are very clear about

1:02:44 > 1:02:47saying, there will be 81 extra constables who will be beat

1:02:47 > 1:02:53officers.Well, we haven't seen that. The changing face of crime is

1:02:53 > 1:03:00going to be...It's only just started.Let's end there. That is

1:03:00 > 1:03:05all. You can watch this player on iPlayer -- programme on iPlayer.

1:03:06 > 1:03:07to support.

1:03:07 > 1:03:10All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:10 > 1:03:12My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:12 > 1:03:15It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:15 > 1:03:15again, you might think.

1:03:15 > 1:03:18She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:18 > 1:03:21which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:21 > 1:03:24vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:24 > 1:03:26this time apparently over housing.

1:03:26 > 1:03:28So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:28 > 1:03:30or more of a whimper?

1:03:30 > 1:03:31Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:31 > 1:03:33and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:33 > 1:03:35to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:35 > 1:03:38ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:38 > 1:03:44# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:45 > 1:03:48It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:48 > 1:03:52but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:52 > 1:03:56it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:56 > 1:03:58does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:58 > 1:03:59Yes or no?

1:03:59 > 1:04:05# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:05 > 1:04:07With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:07 > 1:04:10and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:10 > 1:04:14So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:16 > 1:04:20She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:20 > 1:04:21Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:21 > 1:04:23I think she's in control.

1:04:23 > 1:04:25She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:25 > 1:04:26No, I don't.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27I think she's a mess.

1:04:27 > 1:04:30Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:30 > 1:04:33by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:33 > 1:04:37I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:39 > 1:04:43I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:43 > 1:04:46I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:46 > 1:04:49a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:52The Queen is England's role.

1:04:52 > 1:04:54It's her birth right.

1:04:54 > 1:04:57She is England's role of this country.

1:04:57 > 1:05:00I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:00 > 1:05:03I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:03 > 1:05:06I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:06 > 1:05:08I think she could have done better.

1:05:08 > 1:05:10The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:10 > 1:05:12I think she should resign, really.

1:05:12 > 1:05:15I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:15 > 1:05:16I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:16 > 1:05:20She's doing her best.

1:05:20 > 1:05:22With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:22 > 1:05:26moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:26 > 1:05:28Very disappointed.

1:05:28 > 1:05:34Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:34 > 1:05:36And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:36 > 1:05:39But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:39 > 1:05:41despite the current difficulties.

1:05:41 > 1:05:43The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:43 > 1:05:46in the first place for the euro.

1:05:46 > 1:05:48We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:48 > 1:05:52I don't see an end to it.

1:05:52 > 1:05:54Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:54 > 1:05:57The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:57 > 1:06:01and the result is...

1:06:01 > 1:06:02No.

1:06:02 > 1:06:04The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:04 > 1:06:06don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:07 > 1:06:10CHEERING

1:06:10 > 1:06:13That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:13 > 1:06:20to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:20 > 1:06:24Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:24 > 1:06:27seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:27 > 1:06:33Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:33 > 1:06:37swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:37 > 1:06:44All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:44 > 1:06:48tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:48 > 1:06:53her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:53 > 1:06:56in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:56 > 1:07:00in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:00 > 1:07:04could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:04 > 1:07:08say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:08 > 1:07:12goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:12 > 1:07:15think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:15 > 1:07:20things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:20 > 1:07:24basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:24 > 1:07:30basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:30 > 1:07:34minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:34 > 1:07:38impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:38 > 1:07:41opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:41 > 1:07:45action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:45 > 1:07:49get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:49 > 1:07:55her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:55 > 1:07:58is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:58 > 1:08:03Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:03 > 1:08:07not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:07 > 1:08:10giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:15an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:15 > 1:08:19has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:19 > 1:08:23her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:23 > 1:08:31like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:31 > 1:08:34retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:34 > 1:08:38longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:38 > 1:08:42or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:42 > 1:08:49being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:49 > 1:08:53think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:53 > 1:08:56Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:56 > 1:09:01be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:01 > 1:09:05Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:05 > 1:09:09again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:09 > 1:09:14investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:14 > 1:09:19into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:19 > 1:09:23Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:23 > 1:09:28the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:28 > 1:09:32promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:32 > 1:09:37simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:37 > 1:09:41not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:41 > 1:09:45possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:45 > 1:09:50seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:50 > 1:09:58goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:58 > 1:10:07knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:07 > 1:10:13are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:13 > 1:10:17Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:17 > 1:10:23in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:23 > 1:10:29say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:29 > 1:10:33less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:33 > 1:10:39Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:39 > 1:10:44Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:44 > 1:10:46vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:46 > 1:10:50They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:50 > 1:10:54moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:54 > 1:10:59Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:59 > 1:11:02with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:02 > 1:11:07virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:07 > 1:11:11guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:11 > 1:11:15part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:15 > 1:11:20whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:20 > 1:11:23what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:23 > 1:11:26that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:26 > 1:11:31Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:31 > 1:11:34glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:34 > 1:11:39should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:39 > 1:11:43a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:43 > 1:11:47of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:47 > 1:11:50quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:50 > 1:11:55steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:55 > 1:11:59that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:59 > 1:12:03expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:03 > 1:12:08the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:08 > 1:12:11he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:11 > 1:12:17Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:17 > 1:12:22do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:22 > 1:12:26budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:26 > 1:12:32is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:32 > 1:12:38Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:38 > 1:12:42witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:42 > 1:12:45between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:45 > 1:12:50bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:50 > 1:12:54in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:54 > 1:13:00be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:00 > 1:13:05Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:05 > 1:13:08are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:08 > 1:13:09to build for themselves.

1:13:09 > 1:13:10That's all for today.

1:13:10 > 1:13:13There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:13 > 1:13:14while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:14 > 1:13:17but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:17 > 1:13:22Until then, bye bye.