:00:37. > :00:47.Afternoon, folks, welcome to the very first edition of the Sunday
:00:47. > :00:52.Politics! Hardtop story: The Miliband relaunch, is it working,
:00:52. > :00:58.and how much is Labour's economic policy changing? We asked former
:00:58. > :01:02.Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling. And A for effort for Michael Gove,
:01:02. > :01:07.but will his reforms actually improve English schools? The
:01:07. > :01:10.Secretary it a stage joins us for the Sunday interview. And as Alex
:01:10. > :01:15.Salmond tells the Sunday Politics George Osborne is wrong to suggest
:01:15. > :01:21.an independent Scotland could not keep the pound, Labour and the SNP
:01:21. > :01:25.go-ahead to end on independence. And meet our political panel, a new
:01:25. > :01:28.generation of commentators here every week to analyse politics in
:01:28. > :01:30.the weekend and treating throughout the programme.
:01:30. > :01:33.In London, the man behind Westminster's controversial plans
:01:33. > :01:43.to introduce evening parking charges in the West End, council
:01:43. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:52.leader Colin Barrow, has resigned. Before all of that, the news with
:01:52. > :01:56.Maxine Mawhinney. Good afternoon. People are still
:01:56. > :02:01.being found alive aboard the capsized Italian ship Costa
:02:01. > :02:05.Concordia nearly 40 hours after it ran aground off Italy's west coast.
:02:05. > :02:09.Two people, a honeymooning couple from South Korea, were brought
:02:09. > :02:12.ashore overnight. This morning there are reports that a senior
:02:12. > :02:20.crew member has also been rescued. Matthew Price's report contains
:02:20. > :02:24.The beached hulk are the cruise liner lies stranded, so close to
:02:25. > :02:30.land that it is almost onshore. Helicopters winched down more help
:02:30. > :02:33.for those believed to be trapped inside this lunchtime. The
:02:33. > :02:43.coastguard is still trying to work out how many people remain
:02:43. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:47.This was the scene as the ship began to list and then capsize.
:02:47. > :02:54.Because it was so close to land, the vast majority of people were
:02:54. > :02:58.off within hours. Late last night, though, two Korean jurists were
:02:58. > :03:04.eventually located and brought to safety. -- jurists. All the Britons
:03:04. > :03:08.on board are known to have survived. Still, there are potentially more
:03:08. > :03:18.people to bring out alive. It is cold here, though, and they are in
:03:18. > :03:19.
:03:19. > :03:23.Police and Leeds are questioning a 36-year-old man about the deaths of
:03:23. > :03:26.a woman and a child whose bodies were found at their house in Leeds.
:03:26. > :03:31.A four-year-old girl who was also found that the house in the calf of
:03:31. > :03:33.area has been treated in hospital for minor injuries. -- Carrefour.
:03:33. > :03:36.The man is being detained on suspicion of murder and attempted
:03:36. > :03:40.murder. Police investigating a double
:03:40. > :03:44.killing in Birmingham have arrested a second man. Carole and Avtar
:03:44. > :03:48.Kolar were found dead at their home in Handsworth Wood on Wednesday. A
:03:48. > :03:54.40-year-old man is being questioned on suspicion of murder. Page 24-
:03:54. > :03:58.year-old arrested on Friday remains in custody. -- A 24-year-old.
:03:58. > :04:01.Fines for people who put their rubbish in the wrong bins or out on
:04:01. > :04:05.the wrong day are being scrapped today. Some councils in England can
:04:05. > :04:11.find residents up to �1,000 for making errors if they got recycling
:04:11. > :04:17.in the wrong bins or leave them out on the wrong day.
:04:17. > :04:21.One is here on BBC One at 6:35pm. - - More news.
:04:21. > :04:24.The Miliband relaunch continues this morning with his interview on
:04:24. > :04:29.the Andrew Marr programme, but what is the substance behind Labour's
:04:29. > :04:36.economic policy? We are joined from them run by former Chancellor
:04:36. > :04:40.Alistair Darling. Could you clarify what has changed? I agree with what
:04:40. > :04:44.Ed is saying today, making it clear that by 2015, the time of the next
:04:44. > :04:47.election, it is likely there will be a lot less money to go around
:04:47. > :04:50.than there has been in the past, and we have got to be realistic
:04:51. > :04:54.about it. There are some things the government does now which it will
:04:54. > :04:58.not be able to do or two less of in the future. The other thing which
:04:58. > :05:03.is absolutely critical and where there is a big division between the
:05:03. > :05:08.two main political parties, how do good growth? The problem that faces
:05:08. > :05:12.us and Europe is that we are in a situation of almost paralysis when
:05:12. > :05:16.growth is drying up, borrowing is going up, debt is going up, hence
:05:16. > :05:20.the downgrades you have seen in Europe over the weekend.
:05:20. > :05:26.understand that, but we have known all of the above for quite some
:05:26. > :05:31.time. What is new? I think what is different is that both Ed Miliband
:05:31. > :05:36.at the Ed Balls are saying in stark terms that we have to make choices
:05:36. > :05:41.as to what we think we can do and what we cannot do. In addition to
:05:41. > :05:45.that, there are also choices to be made as how you get growth going
:05:45. > :05:50.again, how you get recovery. At a time when the world is changing
:05:50. > :05:54.quickly, it is absolutely critical. I welcome the new emphasis that
:05:54. > :05:57.both Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are putting on that. Ed Miliband told
:05:57. > :06:02.Andrew Marr that he thought the Government was cutting too fast and
:06:02. > :06:07.too quickly. He still wanted a cut in VAT. Again, what has really
:06:07. > :06:11.changed? Well, you are asking about the rate at which the Government
:06:11. > :06:15.was cutting. You will recall that the policy that I left, if you like,
:06:15. > :06:19.was one that was predicated on the fact that it to cut too quickly,
:06:19. > :06:24.the risk is crashing the economy, and that is what has happened.
:06:24. > :06:28.George Osborne are borrowing �150 billion more than he expected to
:06:28. > :06:32.because growth has stalled. -- is borrowing. That is a clear
:06:32. > :06:38.difference between the two political parties. I think one of
:06:38. > :06:41.the key battlegrounds over the next two or three years, as the
:06:41. > :06:46.Government and opposition want to establish credibility with the
:06:46. > :06:50.electorate, is what policies are credible, what is the right way to
:06:50. > :06:55.get growth going again? Without broke, we do not get borrowing down,
:06:55. > :06:59.and we will end up with very much higher unemployment than otherwise.
:06:59. > :07:04.-- without growth. A new emphasis of Ed Miliband, I very much welcome
:07:04. > :07:07.that. Another battleground will be independent of the country and city
:07:07. > :07:13.you are sitting in now. Alex Salmond spoke to the Sunday
:07:13. > :07:16.Politics today, this is what he had to say. The UK government cannot
:07:16. > :07:20.stop an independent Scotland using sterling for a number of reasons.
:07:20. > :07:23.Sterling is not owned by George Osborne. He has been chancellor for
:07:23. > :07:29.18 months, sterling has been around for a long time. The Bank of
:07:29. > :07:32.England was founded by a Scot before the Act of Union. But it is
:07:32. > :07:36.a fully convertible currency. You could not instruct people not to
:07:36. > :07:41.use sterling. I do not what George Osborne's degree was in, but it
:07:41. > :07:48.certainly was not economics. That interview is in Sunday Politics
:07:48. > :07:50.Scotland, not long to go for that. Tell me this, who is right? Could
:07:50. > :07:53.Scotland used sterling as an independent state with or without
:07:53. > :08:00.the support and approval of the Bank of England and the British
:08:00. > :08:03.Treasury? Well, you know, Panama uses the dollar. That is obviously
:08:03. > :08:07.the American currency. The difficulty is, though, if Scotland
:08:07. > :08:11.was using the pound in the same circumstances, its interest rates
:08:11. > :08:14.would be fixed by the governor of a bank in what would be a foreign
:08:14. > :08:19.country. It seems to me to be an absolutely ludicrous position to
:08:19. > :08:23.get yourself into, when you have a currency where you cannot control
:08:23. > :08:26.monetary policy, because taxing and spending goes together with
:08:26. > :08:29.monetary policy. There is an alternative. You could have reached
:08:29. > :08:33.an agreement with what remained of the UK, but they would want to see
:08:33. > :08:37.rules like the eurozone to stop excessive deficits, to stop
:08:37. > :08:41.Scotland from having a vastly different tax-and-spend policy, in
:08:41. > :08:45.which case you are back into the same position you have got now. You
:08:45. > :08:49.swap one set of rules for another, or you could join the euro, and I
:08:49. > :08:53.think Alex Salmond knows the euro is as toxic in Scotland as in the
:08:53. > :08:57.rest of the UK. In terms of who leads the case for the Union
:08:57. > :09:03.against Mr Salmond, it cannot be a Tory, it cannot be an Englishman,
:09:03. > :09:07.it cannot be Gordon Brown. Should it be Alistair Darling? I have said
:09:08. > :09:11.I intend to play a full part in doing that. I am and MP, so I am in
:09:11. > :09:16.the House of Commons four days a week. It is important the campaign
:09:16. > :09:20.is run from Scotland. Make no mistake... Nothing more important
:09:20. > :09:23.than the union to you, you could spend more time in Scotland!
:09:23. > :09:27.Maintaining the union between our countries is important because that
:09:27. > :09:31.is what is best for Scotland, and that is my starting point. I will
:09:31. > :09:36.play a full part in doing that. The day-to-day organisation will have
:09:36. > :09:40.to be done from here, but this is a two-and-a-half-year campaign. It
:09:40. > :09:45.makes the American presidential campaign look very short indeed. I
:09:45. > :09:48.will play my part because I care very much. Thank you for being our
:09:48. > :09:52.first guest on the first edition of the Sunday politics.
:09:52. > :09:55.Tony Blair once said that when it came to reforming public services,
:09:55. > :10:00.New Labour were at their best when they were boulders. He went on to
:10:00. > :10:05.regret they were not bold enough, but when it comes to education,
:10:05. > :10:07.Blairite reform is fitted with rocket boosters thanks to Tory
:10:07. > :10:12.Education Secretary Michael Gove. In case you missed it, a reminder
:10:12. > :10:17.of how the spirit of Tony lives on in the Department for Education.
:10:17. > :10:21.It has been a busy year for the Education Secretary, 24 New
:10:21. > :10:24.Independent but state-funded free schools, some founded by parents,
:10:25. > :10:31.opened last September with more to follow this year. There has been a
:10:31. > :10:41.massive expansion of academies from 200 and belabour up to 1529 today.
:10:41. > :10:42.
:10:42. > :10:45.-- under Labour. The Education Secretary says... The enemies of
:10:45. > :10:49.the Academy's programme, the enemies of reform who want to put
:10:49. > :10:54.Bolton ahead of people's interests. It will be easier for head teachers
:10:54. > :11:01.to sack bad teachers from September. Ofsted, which runs school
:11:01. > :11:06.inspections, has been shaken up. A new boss and tougher inspections.
:11:06. > :11:16.With me to discuss whether these reforms will actually work,
:11:16. > :11:17.
:11:17. > :11:21.You have been a busy man, he wants to improve the quality of schools
:11:21. > :11:26.in England. By what yardstick should we judge your success or
:11:26. > :11:30.failure? They have to be several. When you judge the health of the
:11:30. > :11:34.education system, just as the health of a human being, unique to
:11:34. > :11:36.not just take the pulse but look at all the vital signs. There are some
:11:37. > :11:39.early signs which will tell us whether we are on the right track.
:11:40. > :11:42.The first is whether we see more students following the rigorous
:11:42. > :11:47.subject that would give them a better chance in the future, so
:11:47. > :11:50.more people studying history, geography, modern foreign languages
:11:50. > :11:55.and the hard sciences, physics, chemistry and biology. Give us
:11:55. > :11:58.another. Are we see more headteachers taking advantage of
:11:58. > :12:01.academy powers? Are more people opting to enjoy academy status? The
:12:01. > :12:06.third thing is whether we are seeing independent schools deciding
:12:06. > :12:10.that what we have done in the state sector is so good that the state
:12:10. > :12:13.sector is improving at such a sufficient rate that they can join.
:12:13. > :12:16.If we see discipline improving to the extent that teachers feel more
:12:16. > :12:20.confident about keeping order in the classroom and parents feel that
:12:20. > :12:25.schools are a safer place. Those of four which I expect to change
:12:25. > :12:30.quickly. More broadly... Let me give you a tight a yardstick. If
:12:30. > :12:35.you forgive me for saying so, these are quite nebulous. Let's look at
:12:35. > :12:44.the international league table for 65 countries. This was in 2009, in
:12:44. > :12:47.a sense your inheritance. England came 25thth or Reading, 27th
:12:47. > :12:53.formats -- formats. Your reforms will have failed if the English
:12:53. > :12:56.Schools do not start to climb up this league table. It will take
:12:56. > :12:59.about 10 years before we see the fruits of all the reforms that we
:12:59. > :13:03.are making which will lead to a turnaround in league tables like
:13:03. > :13:07.that, and the reason for that is the next time that specific
:13:07. > :13:11.snapshot will be taken, it will be for students who have spent the
:13:11. > :13:15.majority of their time in schools following policies set by the
:13:15. > :13:18.previous administration. So if we do not see an improvement in our
:13:19. > :13:24.rankings, you will have failed? think we need to take 10 years and
:13:24. > :13:27.look at a variety of measures. It is a good measure, and I would not
:13:27. > :13:30.disparage it, but the four things I mentioned earlier are all things
:13:30. > :13:34.where we can see a measurable difference, and there are other
:13:34. > :13:41.areas where we can begin to see whether things are changing for the
:13:41. > :13:45.better. It seems to me that since you have decried our decline, your
:13:45. > :13:51.policies need to lead to an increase in our state is in these
:13:51. > :13:54.tables. At absolutely think they should, and one of the reasons that
:13:54. > :13:58.is important is because we have to compare ourselves with other
:13:58. > :14:01.countries. What we will not do is do what previous Labour education
:14:01. > :14:07.secretaries did, looking at every year's exam results and saying,
:14:07. > :14:10.what a good boy I am! These have risen, I am clearly doing the right
:14:10. > :14:14.thing. Unfortunately, the achievements of children on the
:14:14. > :14:17.ground, the real achievements became debased and valued because
:14:17. > :14:20.Labour education secretaries sound and light Soviet commissars
:14:20. > :14:24.praising a tractor production figures when we knew that those
:14:25. > :14:31.exams were not the rock solid and reliable measures of achievement
:14:31. > :14:35.that children deserve. People will want to judge you by exam success,
:14:35. > :14:45.so let's look at the problem you have alluded to comment GCSE and A-
:14:45. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:04.Is that grade inflation? Yes. doesn't that mean therefore, for
:15:04. > :15:09.you to be successful, for you to get some rigour back into the
:15:09. > :15:13.system, fewer people will have to do well at the top rate? We need to
:15:13. > :15:18.make sure that we are tight about the definition of success, not just
:15:18. > :15:21.at the top but all way through. It is important to recognise it is not
:15:21. > :15:25.just grade inflation. I believe schools have got better,
:15:25. > :15:28.incrementally in some cases, quicker in others over the course
:15:28. > :15:32.of the last 15 years, absolutely, but what we have not done is
:15:32. > :15:36.improve the rate at which other countries have improved, and what
:15:36. > :15:40.lies behind this Bergues is a sadder story, which is that the gap
:15:40. > :15:45.between rich and poor has grown wider over the last 15 years. --
:15:45. > :15:48.figures. That is another matter which matters, are we ensuring that
:15:49. > :15:58.poor children are improving at just the same rate, if not faster, than
:15:59. > :16:01.
:16:01. > :16:05.Be used to be that there was a quota for an A-grade A level,
:16:05. > :16:11.therefore, universities and the public knew these were the 10% best
:16:11. > :16:17.and brightest, why not go back to that? I floated the idea, in which
:16:17. > :16:21.there is merit. But why not fall grades? A want to involve
:16:21. > :16:28.universities small in A-levels, in setting the questions, grading the
:16:28. > :16:32.examinations and working out what the marks should be -- I want. The
:16:32. > :16:36.reason I want to do that is because A-levels are a guide to whether
:16:36. > :16:41.somebody will benefit from the opportunities university education
:16:41. > :16:45.brings, so I won them to play a bigger role. To do that, you need
:16:45. > :16:53.to do it collaboratively. I am asking universities how can we make
:16:53. > :16:57.A-levels more rigorous? For all grades? A want to hear what the
:16:57. > :17:00.universities have to say. That is not very radical, you are supposed
:17:00. > :17:08.to be a radical education secretary. You need to get rid go back in,
:17:08. > :17:16.that would be the way to do it, but you also need to accept that if you
:17:16. > :17:20.inflate grades, then at some stage when exam results come out that
:17:20. > :17:26.fewer students will paradoxically get the a * and A grades. Possibly
:17:26. > :17:31.yes. You are prepared to accept that? Absolutely. You have to tell
:17:31. > :17:36.the truth about this, I think when people see that the number of
:17:36. > :17:40.people getting a first, or to one a university, they know that schools
:17:40. > :17:46.have not improved at that rate so discredits the integrity of the
:17:46. > :17:50.education system. The tougher exams then fewer A-grade A-levels?
:17:50. > :17:54.absolutely, and if that means fewer passes, that is something we have
:17:54. > :17:59.to accept. But I want to ensure that as well it's exams being
:17:59. > :18:01.tougher, that schools work harder and I hope we will see exams once
:18:01. > :18:05.again being trusted across the globe and our children are among
:18:05. > :18:10.the best in the world. Let's move on to academies. This is what you
:18:10. > :18:15.have to say in a speech in 2009, November, you said we want to see a
:18:15. > :18:19.radical shift in power away from Whitehall and toured schools and
:18:19. > :18:26.parents. We want parents given more control over their children's
:18:26. > :18:29.education. So why not let the parents of say, down Hills primary
:18:29. > :18:36.school in Haringey, have the control over their children's
:18:36. > :18:38.education? You are making them an academy, they don't want it. It is
:18:38. > :18:43.under judicial review so I must be careful about that particular
:18:43. > :18:48.school. When schools are doing well you step back and let parents
:18:48. > :18:53.choose between them, you interfere less and allow good teachers to do
:18:53. > :18:58.more. But where there is failure the state should intervene, in
:18:58. > :19:01.particular with failure and poor children suffering, it is my
:19:01. > :19:05.responsibility to say to the local authority and the teachers there
:19:05. > :19:09.sorry, not good enough. But even when the headmaster, parents and
:19:09. > :19:13.teachers do not want academy status? I thought you said the man
:19:13. > :19:19.in Whitehall did not know best? Sometimes you do need to tackle
:19:19. > :19:21.failure. Over all, we're looking at hundreds of underperforming primary
:19:21. > :19:25.schools, in almost all those circumstances the heads, local
:19:25. > :19:28.authorities and governors say we have problems, we want help, but
:19:28. > :19:34.there are some places where they are saying actually, we do not want
:19:34. > :19:37.your help, hands off. I cannot allow that to happen because my aim
:19:37. > :19:42.is to raise standards for children and one of the things in some parts
:19:42. > :19:47.of the country is that the old hard Left political elements spoiling
:19:47. > :19:57.for a fight... I thought you were one of those? I have been many
:19:57. > :20:00.
:20:00. > :20:05.In the end, you have said you would let parents decide themselves and
:20:05. > :20:08.in fact, when you do not like what they are doing you step in and tell
:20:08. > :20:11.them what to do. In the overwhelming number of
:20:11. > :20:14.circumstances I want parents to have more power and we are giving
:20:14. > :20:18.them more power to choose a more information about their schools.
:20:18. > :20:24.But wary school is failing, whether it is one school in one part of
:20:24. > :20:27.London, or elsewhere, then I will step in. It is my job to make sure
:20:27. > :20:33.standards are raised in this country. So sometimes Whitehall
:20:34. > :20:36.does not know best? Some times you need a leader. The leader to say
:20:36. > :20:39.Ah'm a champion for higher standards. The argument for me is
:20:40. > :20:43.what is in the interests of these children and our standards
:20:43. > :20:48.improving? If people say you're making itself unpopular, I do not
:20:48. > :20:54.care, because the reason I am in this job... We know the reason you
:20:54. > :20:58.are in the job. Let me ask you about Ed Miliband. When it comes to
:20:58. > :21:01.issues like responsible capitalism, the squeezed middle, he leads and
:21:01. > :21:06.your party follows? That is ludicrous for at least three
:21:06. > :21:10.reasons... Give me a good one. responsible capitalism, David
:21:10. > :21:15.Cameron was way out on this. When Ed Miliband was handing out night
:21:15. > :21:18.had so, it was David Cameron who made the speeches at the start of
:21:18. > :21:22.his time as leader calling for greater responsibility in this is,
:21:22. > :21:26.it was his principal adviser Steve Hilton who is the first think in
:21:26. > :21:31.this country in the book he wrote to argue both that capitalism
:21:31. > :21:34.should be more responsible... briefly, if Scotland goes
:21:34. > :21:38.independent you represent part of Surrey, would you seek political
:21:38. > :21:44.asylum? I think there are some people who think I should be in a
:21:44. > :21:48.different sort of asylum! I pray we can keep the country together.
:21:48. > :21:51.Thank you for being our first big interview on the programme. The
:21:51. > :21:54.debate over the nature of the referendum for Scottish
:21:54. > :21:57.independence continues but matters are already shifting from tactical
:21:57. > :22:03.tussles between Edinburgh and Westminster too hard questions
:22:03. > :22:08.about the nature and credibility of a separate Scottish state. It
:22:08. > :22:15.includes such basics as what would be the Scottish currency? So how
:22:15. > :22:19.will the two sides do battle? We went to Bannockburn to find out.
:22:19. > :22:23.Last time the Scots won independence they squared up at
:22:23. > :22:28.Bannockburn. If Alex Salmond is to emulate that with his chosen
:22:28. > :22:38.referendum date of 2014 the 700 anniversary of that class, he will
:22:38. > :22:38.
:22:38. > :22:43.have to do so with votes, not an In defeating the English, he did
:22:43. > :22:48.not just win independence, he also won valuable prisoners and �200,000
:22:48. > :22:53.of English coin. In this referendum independence battle how much it is
:22:53. > :22:57.worth and what it might cost is more complicated. There are already
:22:57. > :23:03.a conflict of statistics with both sides claimed in the country would
:23:03. > :23:06.be better off, worse off, and what the voter has to do is make sense
:23:06. > :23:14.of these buy it distinguishing what is politically motivated
:23:14. > :23:18.information rather than independent information. Based on the portion
:23:18. > :23:23.of information Scotland might have to take on about 80 billion of the
:23:23. > :23:26.UK's 940 billion pound debt pile and it might service that. But any
:23:26. > :23:31.insistence that an independent Scotland also take on a share of
:23:31. > :23:37.the 1.25 trillion liabilities of saving the banks, such as the cost
:23:37. > :23:47.of bailing out RBS and HBOS, might take the biscuit. Both independence
:23:47. > :23:48.
:23:48. > :23:52.and the union have the business What we have might well well but
:23:52. > :23:57.don't change the winning team. think business does not really like
:23:57. > :24:03.fundamental change. It is probably better the devil you know them
:24:03. > :24:09.something new. I am different, I think it is exciting! We need
:24:09. > :24:14.England more than England needs cars. They might put a tax on the
:24:14. > :24:21.border, maybe the fat there is another 5% on exports to England,
:24:21. > :24:31.that would kill the thing. Simple - yes, or no? Or is there an appetite
:24:31. > :24:35.
:24:35. > :24:43.for this third option? They call it The closest we had was the Calman
:24:43. > :24:47.Commission, but that is a long way short of the full fiscal autonomy.
:24:47. > :24:53.The political symbolism of early victories in this tussle is not
:24:53. > :24:59.lost on any of those now entering the fray. Joining us to debate
:24:59. > :25:09.whether Scotland can make it on its own, from Dundee, Stuart Ajose, and
:25:09. > :25:14.
:25:14. > :25:18.If Scotland had been independent when the banks went bust, you would
:25:19. > :25:27.have been bankrupt by 2009, wouldn't you? We would not have
:25:27. > :25:30.been. In the same way that tax liability falls economic activity,
:25:30. > :25:36.the notion that Scotland alone would have had to bail out of
:25:36. > :25:39.international bank does not stand up to any scrutiny, look at the
:25:39. > :25:42.multinational recapitalisation of Fortis Bank, for example. So we do
:25:42. > :25:49.not accept the premise that we would have been liable for the
:25:49. > :25:54.entire debt of the recapitalisation. What do you say to that? It could
:25:54. > :25:57.be like Norway, a rich energy superpower? I would not use words
:25:57. > :26:02.like bankrupt, it insults the intelligence of bankrupt --
:26:02. > :26:05.Scottish people. The question on the referendum will not be one of
:26:05. > :26:09.survival, it will be about what you believe Scotland is a fair,
:26:09. > :26:13.prosperous country as part of the UK, or as a separate nation. The
:26:13. > :26:16.reality is one of the benefits of being part of the union is we share
:26:16. > :26:20.the risks and rewards and the banking crisis is an example of
:26:20. > :26:24.that. The strength of the UK help us overcome the crisis and gave us
:26:24. > :26:28.the position we are now hopefully moving in the right direction of.
:26:28. > :26:31.There seems to be confusion about what the currency would be in an
:26:31. > :26:41.independent Scotland. If you could not keep the pound because London
:26:41. > :26:45.
:26:45. > :26:50.said you cannot use sterling then It may be called the Bank of
:26:50. > :26:59.England but it is the UK central bank... You are getting rid of the
:26:59. > :27:03.UK? The central bank is our bank as well. The rules which govern note
:27:03. > :27:07.issues, or bank money, where an agreement with how that is done and
:27:07. > :27:13.there is no obstacle to Scotland continuing to use sterling, which
:27:13. > :27:17.is what we intend to do. Do you agree? The Bank of England is the
:27:17. > :27:22.UK's Bank and the reality is at the moment we share that with our
:27:22. > :27:28.biggest business partner. If we became of independent nation it
:27:28. > :27:33.would be our biggest competitor. The SNP is posing that our
:27:33. > :27:37.competitor sets our borrowing limits and rates. The reality is
:27:37. > :27:47.these are unanswered questions from the SNP and very serious questions.
:27:47. > :27:48.
:27:48. > :27:52.What will the future currency look I just answer that. We are keeping
:27:52. > :27:54.sterling. But then you are accepting that the biggest business
:27:54. > :27:58.competitor in a foreign country would be setting your borrowing and
:27:58. > :28:01.spending limits and interest rates. Is that acceptable? At the moment
:28:01. > :28:05.we do not control interest rate and quantitative easing, we have no
:28:05. > :28:08.control over the fiscal levers. With independence there is the
:28:08. > :28:12.discipline of interest rates being set by the central bank which
:28:12. > :28:17.exists for most countries but we would then have complete control of
:28:17. > :28:21.all the fiscal levers which I used to compensate the Monetary position.
:28:21. > :28:25.The Bank of England will have a say in how much you can borrow, if you
:28:25. > :28:30.are part of the Monetary Policy they will control your borrowing.
:28:30. > :28:33.Each country borrows its own money, you do it sensibly, or you do it
:28:33. > :28:39.foolishly and you have a sovereign problem. I would not imagine any
:28:39. > :28:44.future Scottish government would want to over-borrowed to the extent
:28:44. > :28:46.of these problems. But in the UK we have our business partner as
:28:47. > :28:51.England, if we became a separate nation of OBR biggest business
:28:51. > :28:54.competitor in this island, we are letting our biggest business
:28:55. > :29:04.competitor decider interest rates, was spending limit and borrowing.
:29:05. > :29:05.
:29:05. > :29:10.How is that economically credible I think the whole point here is
:29:10. > :29:16.that we will have control over the fiscal levers to compensate when
:29:16. > :29:20.monetary policy is less than optimum, a better the you call them
:29:20. > :29:25.a competitor, we sell and buy from England as we compete, sell and buy
:29:25. > :29:28.from countries around the world. Scotland does not only trade with
:29:28. > :29:38.England as part of the Union, and we would not only trained with them
:29:38. > :29:39.
:29:39. > :29:44.when we are part --... Coming up... We were looking at the issues in
:29:44. > :29:54.the week ahead with our brand new political panel. First, the Sunday
:29:54. > :30:04.
:30:04. > :30:10.Yes, hello from the cattle. As a row over parking charges cast a top
:30:10. > :30:13.council leader his job? Plans for the charges in the West End at
:30:13. > :30:16.evenings and weekends are brought huge opposition, and yesterday
:30:16. > :30:21.Colin Barrow said he will be resigning. He will be here to tell
:30:21. > :30:24.us why. First, he with us for the duration this week are Emily
:30:24. > :30:28.Thornberry, Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury and shadow
:30:28. > :30:33.Attorney-General, and Mark Field, Conservative MP for cities of
:30:33. > :30:38.London and Westminster. Emily, I know something that has caught your
:30:38. > :30:42.eye has been the latest child poverty figures. Yes, I mean they
:30:42. > :30:45.have... Let me put it this way, Labour worked hard at trying to get
:30:45. > :30:49.children out of poverty, and we got about one million out. The new
:30:49. > :30:53.statistics show that in the next in his one million children could fall
:30:53. > :30:57.back into poverty. We see nothing in government policy that will stop
:30:57. > :31:00.that, and it is very worrying, and it particularly affects the
:31:00. > :31:04.Islington. People think about Islington as being leafy lanes and
:31:04. > :31:10.cappuccino bars, but we have the second worst child poverty in the
:31:10. > :31:15.country. Of course, Labour failed to hit your own target. I know, of
:31:15. > :31:17.course we had very high targets and we failed to meet them, but we got
:31:17. > :31:22.900,000 children out of poverty, and the question now is whether
:31:22. > :31:27.they will stay out or tumble back in again. Mark, you can see the
:31:27. > :31:32.mayoral race beginning already, four months away, but no question
:31:32. > :31:36.we are under way. We are having his daily countdown until the Olympics,
:31:36. > :31:42.but 109 days until we have Boris against 10, the big battle. That is
:31:42. > :31:46.going to be very exciting to watch, not just in London, but the most
:31:46. > :31:50.important national campaign in the run-up to the 3rd May. We have
:31:50. > :31:54.already seen, straight off the mark, we were barely able to digest our
:31:54. > :32:02.Christmas cake and Owen Sheers drinks, and Ken Livingstone was
:32:02. > :32:07.making a campaign on fares. It was a very interesting. His Boris
:32:07. > :32:11.Johnson vulnerable on that? I think he is more vulnerable to the idea
:32:11. > :32:17.of complacency. Most people think he will be a shoo-in, Londoners and
:32:17. > :32:23.many of Emily's collies I have spoken to quietly. -- colleagues.
:32:23. > :32:29.Is that true? Nonsense, good try! People who will not come forward
:32:29. > :32:33.and say that. You do not think it is Boris Johnson's to lose? I think
:32:33. > :32:37.Ken Livingstone is making progress, and nobody can call it at the
:32:37. > :32:42.moment. I think it will be a close- run thing. Most decent bowl suggest
:32:42. > :32:46.Ken was eight points behind Boris, and I do not want much complacency.
:32:46. > :32:50.-- polls. I imagine we might be talking about this over the next
:32:50. > :32:54.few weeks, but let's move on! It has been a good week if you have
:32:54. > :32:58.got a tunnelling machine, either of you? The government finally
:32:58. > :33:02.confirmed its plans for a new high- speed rail link, a major
:33:02. > :33:06.construction task, and across the Chilterns Aga warmed kitchens looks
:33:06. > :33:09.set to become the nerve centres for a big protest campaign which could
:33:09. > :33:13.give the Government quite a headache. Among those who feel the
:33:13. > :33:17.case may still need to be made more convincingly is this man.
:33:17. > :33:22.I think we have got to keep negotiating, keep arguing, because
:33:22. > :33:27.there is no reason at all in my view of why people in the Chilterns
:33:27. > :33:31.should receive substantial mitigation in the form of extensive
:33:31. > :33:37.tunnels than people and west London. Mark Field, are you sold on the
:33:37. > :33:42.idea of HS2? One of the most important things was to try and
:33:42. > :33:45.ensure that the real danger point around Euston, which has not that
:33:45. > :33:49.any capacity for the increased numbers that are likely to come in,
:33:49. > :33:54.was going to be looked after, and the fact that the argon to have a
:33:54. > :33:58.new station near Wormwood Scrubs which will link up Crossrail with
:33:58. > :34:03.HS2 is good news. But Boris is right in this regard, given that we
:34:03. > :34:06.are committed to spending only 200 million out of a total expenditure
:34:06. > :34:10.of �32 billion during the course of the parliament, there is a risk
:34:10. > :34:13.that the plug could be called on his project going forward. If you
:34:13. > :34:17.look at what happened with Crossrail 30 years ago, not enough
:34:17. > :34:22.money had been spent and it was easy to put the thing on the back
:34:23. > :34:27.burner. Only ones seven of the 32 billion has been spent can we be
:34:27. > :34:30.sure that we have gone beyond the point of no return. Some would say
:34:30. > :34:36.this is less politically contentious because Labour support
:34:36. > :34:40.the principle of HS2, but do you feel that a lot of the political
:34:41. > :34:45.attention is likely to be out there, in the shires, in Buckinghamshire,
:34:45. > :34:51.and the people of Camden, quite close to where you represent, are
:34:51. > :34:55.going to be neglected? It is an important point. People talk about
:34:55. > :34:59.the NIMBYs in the Chilterns not wanting their views ruined, but 300
:34:59. > :35:02.families will lose their homes. Can you be a NIMBY if your house is
:35:02. > :35:07.going? We have not had sufficient reassurances as to what will happen
:35:07. > :35:11.to these people. It will be a great new world for them, want it?
:35:12. > :35:16.and, we are not against it, but there are some practical things.
:35:16. > :35:20.300 families ought to be more of a priority than they have been so far.
:35:20. > :35:25.But Crossrail, there were similar problems in my constituency around
:35:25. > :35:28.so are, where there was compulsory purchase, but it was very rapid,
:35:28. > :35:33.and the overall economic case was made for Crossrail that meant that
:35:34. > :35:38.everyone could see the benefits, even if it was an imposition.
:35:38. > :35:43.you accept the idea that there is no provision for extra Tube
:35:43. > :35:48.capacity, plus capacity? There is likely to be a big squeeze. That
:35:48. > :35:53.was the point I was making. You need another hub. But are we
:35:53. > :35:59.convinced that will happen? There I think we are going to see London
:35:59. > :36:02.like a building site for the next few years. Crossrail is immensely
:36:02. > :36:05.important, we have a huge station coming up in Farringdon. It is
:36:05. > :36:10.going to make all the difference in the world. People's lives will be
:36:10. > :36:13.transformed by that new infrastructure, and we needed.
:36:13. > :36:16.Something that has already caused howls of protest over the last few
:36:16. > :36:22.months, a plan by Westminster to introduce parking charges in the
:36:22. > :36:25.West End it evenings and weekends. An early political price has been
:36:25. > :36:30.paid by Colin Barrow, the Conservative leader of Westminster,
:36:30. > :36:35.who announced yesterday he was to stand down. Sonja Jessup has more.
:36:35. > :36:41.Parking charges are rarely popular, but in Westminster the backlash
:36:41. > :36:45.over evening and weekend fees was particularly fierce. Judges claimed
:36:45. > :36:50.they would lose worshippers, West End theatre is worried about
:36:50. > :36:53.audiences, and celebrities were concerned about the impact on staff.
:36:54. > :36:59.At the centre of the row, council leader Colin Barrow, arguing the
:36:59. > :37:03.charges were not a tax on nightlife but the best way to cut congestion.
:37:03. > :37:08.But the High Court ruled in favour of campaigners, a green the plans
:37:08. > :37:12.should face a judicial review. The charges, which would have come in
:37:12. > :37:16.earlier this week, will now be postponed until after the Olympics
:37:16. > :37:21.and the mayoral election. We are trying to manage the city, that is
:37:21. > :37:24.a daily job, irrespective of any elections. It is much more
:37:24. > :37:28.difficult during the Olympics, during the Diamond Jubilee, and
:37:28. > :37:32.that is why we are deferring this until after that is out of the way.
:37:32. > :37:37.Colin Barrow made his fortune in finance. His leadership of the
:37:37. > :37:41.council got off to a rocky start. The authority had �17 million tied
:37:41. > :37:46.up in Icelandic banks which collapsed. But he was quickly seen
:37:46. > :37:50.as a dynamic figure, agreeing a radical plan to merge some services
:37:50. > :37:54.with neighbouring Kensington and Chelsea, and Hammersmith councils.
:37:54. > :37:59.But earlier this month Westminster faced fresh anger. Its decision to
:37:59. > :38:03.paint double yellow lines on nearly 200 rose was branded cynical and
:38:03. > :38:08.outrageous. Colin Barrow insists he is resigning for personal reasons,
:38:08. > :38:13.but critics suggest in that the fury over parking charges has meant
:38:14. > :38:20.his time is now up. Well, Colin Barrow is here with me
:38:20. > :38:24.now. Clearly, your time is up, do is get too much for you? No. You
:38:24. > :38:29.don't get into politics unless you have a certain toughness of mind. I
:38:30. > :38:33.have been doing this for 15 years, and after four years running
:38:33. > :38:39.Westminster, I felt it was time to move on. I took this decision six
:38:39. > :38:43.months ago. I in fact delayed it in order to get his parking thing to
:38:43. > :38:46.the point where it was going to be implemented, which was scheduled to
:38:46. > :38:53.be in January. Now there is a pause, so I thought it was an opportunity
:38:53. > :38:56.to step aside and said the public in another way. So we were not
:38:56. > :39:00.standing down because of the mess that has been made of this parking
:39:00. > :39:06.row? Absolutely. I'm not standing down because of parking at all. I'm
:39:06. > :39:09.standing down because I have done what I came to do. I wanted to do
:39:09. > :39:11.something about education and housing in the city, and I wanted
:39:11. > :39:17.to do something about the public realm. We have done all those
:39:17. > :39:19.things. This has market, it would be wrong to say that it had not,
:39:19. > :39:23.and it has been controversial and difficult, but we make
:39:23. > :39:28.controversial decisions every day in Westminster. This one just got a
:39:28. > :39:33.bit noisier than most. You were originally just go to four years,
:39:33. > :39:37.you have done that, but you say and said that he wanted to introduce
:39:37. > :39:41.the parking charges, unpopular measure, some would say, as you
:39:41. > :39:46.know, so your successor did not have to do it. You are doing the
:39:46. > :39:50.opposite now, leaving in the middle of the row. No, there is a pause
:39:50. > :39:54.while we wait for the Olympics and the paramedics to happen, and
:39:54. > :39:57.during that pause we now need to pay attention to the wider economy
:39:57. > :40:02.and put the parking into the context of the wider economy. One
:40:02. > :40:06.of the things that the controversy has generated is... We have had to
:40:06. > :40:10.do this on very narrow traffic management grounds, how many car
:40:10. > :40:16.parking spaces, how much congestion, so one and so forth. What this
:40:16. > :40:20.furore has persuaded us of is that the regulations that surround local
:40:20. > :40:26.government need to force the wider economy... Do you still stand by
:40:26. > :40:31.these proposals for these charges folly? There is no question that
:40:31. > :40:35.the putting of these regulations in will improve congestion, and will
:40:35. > :40:39.improve the turnover of spaces, and that will help business. It is a
:40:39. > :40:45.yes. Yes. You claim you are not standing down because of that, you
:40:45. > :40:49.stand four-square behind these proposals, so you expect the
:40:49. > :40:55.proposals to going in six months or after the Olympics? You think your
:40:55. > :41:00.successor will introduce them? is a matter for my successor. I
:41:00. > :41:04.think that the council will pay a lot more attention to the economic
:41:04. > :41:09.effects, business by business, street by street, line-by-line, and
:41:09. > :41:16.we have been able to do while under the constraints that we are under.
:41:16. > :41:18.I suspect that we will see whether being a free car park, having a
:41:18. > :41:23.free car park in Westminster in the evening is essential to the
:41:23. > :41:27.functioning of Westminster. I do not think it is. We do not have a
:41:27. > :41:30.free car park during the day. It is just as busy in the evening. Let me
:41:30. > :41:36.put it another way. Should your successor go ahead with these
:41:36. > :41:40.changes? That is a matter for my successor. Should they? I think so.
:41:40. > :41:43.I think it will be good for business. One million people, to
:41:43. > :41:49.Westminster every day, and those people deserve to have a city that
:41:49. > :41:53.is congestion three. How is it that so many people do not agree?
:41:53. > :41:57.have heard from 10,000 people out of one million who use Westminster
:41:57. > :42:01.every day. The people who take the trouble to write in are concerned
:42:01. > :42:06.about it. We make hard decisions all the time on planning... Were
:42:06. > :42:14.you surprised by the level of opposition? I think the scale did
:42:14. > :42:19.surprise us. The noise did surprise us. I think that there was a small
:42:19. > :42:24.number of people who were quite seriously affected, which are late-
:42:24. > :42:27.night workers, the casino industry, in particular. One or two
:42:27. > :42:31.particular businesses in a nightclub industry. But those
:42:31. > :42:38.people were the ones most effective. How did the campaign take on such...
:42:38. > :42:43.Are it was organised by people who paid for PRs. That is not to say
:42:43. > :42:51.that it is not right. It was across the spectrum, people asking you not
:42:51. > :42:55.to do it. What did Boris Johnson say you? Boris said to me I think
:42:55. > :43:01.two years ago, I am not sure this is going to be very quiet, I think
:43:01. > :43:05.people might not like it very much, but we undertook a complete review,
:43:05. > :43:09.an enormous amount of research... What is he saying now? Recently, he
:43:09. > :43:12.has got the mayoral election, so it is not surprising that the
:43:12. > :43:16.candidates are going to join with the local newspaper and starts to
:43:16. > :43:23.say... Do you think Boris Johnson would support plans after an
:43:24. > :43:27.election? I don't know. I think if the economic work is done, which is
:43:27. > :43:33.called for and which we have agreed to participate in, to show the
:43:33. > :43:37.impact of this on the city, then I think we can convince him and a lot
:43:37. > :43:39.of other people that while we can fix something about some of the
:43:39. > :43:43.industry's specifically affected, the broad measure of getting
:43:43. > :43:49.congestion down and getting traffic moving again will be more
:43:49. > :43:54.successful. Mark Field is the local MP. You agree with his analysis?
:43:54. > :43:59.His column right to put your constituents above London as a
:43:59. > :44:04.whole? -- is Colin Wright? These are matters for Westminster City
:44:04. > :44:07.Council, and I would not interfere with that. We all know that! I have
:44:07. > :44:12.his say, I did not get many constituents writing to me, and I
:44:12. > :44:16.did get some in favour of what was being proposed. Putting this into
:44:16. > :44:20.context, put in terms of the congestion argument but also the
:44:20. > :44:23.fact that up until the early 1990s there was not even a restriction on
:44:23. > :44:30.Saturday afternoon parking, and at that juncture a lot of the retail
:44:30. > :44:33.businesses who are complaining now were up in arms. I personally do
:44:33. > :44:38.not necessarily agree in this regard, but I suspect that given
:44:38. > :44:44.the furore and the strength of the campaign, I would be surprised...
:44:44. > :44:47.Emily Thornberry? I think it is a mistake. 90% of the population
:44:47. > :44:51.against it. Westminster has a difficult job in looking after
:44:51. > :44:55.local residents, but central London belongs to all of us, and that is
:44:55. > :44:59.what people did not like. They did not like being excluded from the
:44:59. > :45:02.city that is ours. And this relationship, because of where
:45:02. > :45:07.Westminster is, you are with more responsibility, wider than just
:45:07. > :45:11.your residence. Let me finish with a successful businessman... People
:45:11. > :45:16.regard you as being innovative in local government, you are going to
:45:16. > :45:21.be remembered, forever tarnished by this controversy and how you made a
:45:21. > :45:26.terrible error of judgment, aren't you? The political graveyard is
:45:26. > :45:29.full of people trying to rescue their... Except that. What I think
:45:29. > :45:33.I will be remembered for, and Westminster will be remembered for
:45:33. > :45:37.his continuing to make difficult decisions in improving educational
:45:37. > :45:42.standards, improving planning, improving the city environment,
:45:42. > :45:46.fixing housing. That is at the centre of a major capital city, and
:45:46. > :45:51.I think I can hold my head up high about that. This has been a
:45:51. > :45:57.difficult period. But it is not the reason for my stepping down. Very
:45:57. > :46:03.briefly. In terms of the legacy, the revolutionary work we have done
:46:03. > :46:13.in our family's policy, which the government are taking on board,
:46:13. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:28.What else has been happening in the City this week? Here is an idea in
:46:28. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:33.Perhaps a case of a bridge too far as the mayor announces two new
:46:33. > :46:38.crossings for London, in the form of a ferry and tunnel, both planned
:46:38. > :46:42.for completion in the next 10 years. The Cabinet met at the Olympic
:46:42. > :46:46.village to trumpet and on budget and on schedule games. The high-
:46:46. > :46:48.speed rail link from London to Birmingham was given the green
:46:48. > :46:55.light with important concessions made. Three miles of extra tunnels
:46:55. > :46:58.in the capital and thousands of new jobs promised. In Haringey parent
:46:58. > :47:01.protest and Michael Gove's plan to force a primary school into
:47:01. > :47:09.becoming an Academy provoked a sharp reaction from the Secretary
:47:09. > :47:16.of State. It is time we call the arguments what they are, ideals.
:47:16. > :47:19.The same old ideology of failure and mediocrity. They knew met
:47:19. > :47:23.Commissioner announced a stop to some surges as the controversial
:47:23. > :47:32.policy looks set to be overhauled and some uses for the tactic
:47:32. > :47:36.barracks better to be halved. are expected to be halved. Could it
:47:36. > :47:43.become a cause for concern that young people were complaining about
:47:44. > :47:46.it? -- about stop-and-search? think people are affronted by it
:47:46. > :47:50.because they think immediately people think they have done
:47:50. > :47:54.something wrong. We had a time in Islington when we had all those
:47:54. > :47:56.terrible stabbings where there was a spreading hysteria, people were
:47:57. > :48:02.scared and said they were arming themselves because they were scared
:48:02. > :48:06.and because other people -- because of other people. The police stepped
:48:06. > :48:09.in and searched everyone in the area and they did it in a way that
:48:09. > :48:13.was polite, explained what was going on, caused very little
:48:13. > :48:18.trouble and I spoke to a number of teenagers who said they were
:48:18. > :48:27.reassured of the police had stepped in. But this assurance from the Met,
:48:27. > :48:37.which has been given, let's face it, welcome to you as well? -- is this.
:48:37. > :48:39.
:48:39. > :48:42.After the riots of last summer and the verdict of the Stephen Lawrence
:48:42. > :48:47.murder cases has become much more high-profile and sensitive where
:48:47. > :48:53.there is a race elegant -- element to stop and search. What about
:48:53. > :48:56.academies? Andrew was asking Michael Gove about this earlier,
:48:56. > :49:02.how come if he is meant to be allowing teachers and parents to
:49:02. > :49:06.decide, he is forcing schools to become academies? I look at my own
:49:06. > :49:09.patch in a Pimlico school where there was a farce over trade unions
:49:09. > :49:14.and governors and that Academy has been in place for a few years, it
:49:14. > :49:19.has been a big success. The great strength of Michael Gove's strategy
:49:20. > :49:23.has been that he has built on what the Labour government have done. We
:49:23. > :49:30.had an acceleration of academies but rather than seeing himself as a
:49:30. > :49:36.revolutionary... But has it taken it in the direction you would have
:49:36. > :49:41.liked? He is saying to people I know better than teachers, parents,
:49:41. > :49:45.people on the ground and I will enforce this on you. If he was
:49:45. > :49:49.being fair about it, what about all the schools in Surrey that are
:49:49. > :49:59.doing worse? Before you can debate this I am going to have to cut you
:49:59. > :50:03.
:50:04. > :50:07.So Ed Miliband and Ed Balls have had a busy few days trying to
:50:07. > :50:11.invigorate Labour fortunes, the latest effort being the interview
:50:11. > :50:15.with Andrew Marr this morning. With the state of the polls and
:50:15. > :50:25.shortening odds, questions about Ed Miliband's leadership seems certain
:50:25. > :50:26.
:50:26. > :50:31.to remain centre-stage in the Joining us this week and every
:50:31. > :50:41.Sunday are our political panel. The best and brightest of a new
:50:41. > :50:42.
:50:42. > :50:46.generation of commentators. Welcome, team. Ed Miliband has had a tough
:50:46. > :50:50.week, does he start the week better than he does last week. He starts
:50:50. > :50:54.with a fiscal policy which is more credible than it was last week. But
:50:54. > :50:57.there is a danger of exaggerating how far Labour has moved on all of
:50:57. > :51:00.this. They are not acknowledging the previous Labour government
:51:00. > :51:10.spent too much before the crash, and they are not saying George
:51:10. > :51:14.Osborne's cuts are proceeding too They are indicating that the future
:51:14. > :51:17.Labour government, where it collected in 2015, would not
:51:17. > :51:23.reverse the cuts that have already occurred, which would go some way
:51:23. > :51:27.to addressing voters' concerns about their credibility. I think I
:51:27. > :51:32.knew that already. When people like me into the Labour politicians and
:51:32. > :51:35.they say we are opposed to that cat and I say we you restore it if you
:51:35. > :51:41.were in power after 2015 they quite rightly say too soon to say, we
:51:41. > :51:46.have to see the books. So I am not sure this is a change in the policy.
:51:46. > :51:51.You are right, it is not. They have always said this government is
:51:51. > :51:54.cutting too fast and too quickly. But the problem Labour had for
:51:54. > :51:58.quite a time was they were not being specific on what they would
:51:58. > :52:03.do differ me so we are starting to see now a set of policies as this
:52:03. > :52:07.is specifically what we are doing, so what you saw this week was to
:52:07. > :52:12.Murphy saying we do �5 billion worth of defence cuts, then Ed
:52:12. > :52:18.Miliband saying the same, then to the left of the party, Ed Balls and
:52:19. > :52:22.acknowledging that. That was a team effort to say our position has not
:52:22. > :52:26.changed but here are the specifics you need to know we will be
:52:26. > :52:30.credible going forward. I think he starts this week significantly
:52:30. > :52:34.worse off than he did last week. Last week was supposed to be this
:52:34. > :52:39.great relaunch, the big build up, we were told it would be co-
:52:39. > :52:45.ordinated, well thought through and actually at the end of the week the
:52:45. > :52:49.polls look practically worse for Ed Miliband, even in the paper today
:52:49. > :52:53.we showed Labour supporters are turning away from him, apparently
:52:53. > :52:57.even Nick Clegg is more popular. I think he has 18 months to sorted
:52:57. > :53:03.out. He has the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting tomorrow as
:53:03. > :53:09.well. I wonder if people care about policy at the moment. I would
:53:09. > :53:13.suggest the problem is not policy, the problem is Ed Miliband. I agree.
:53:13. > :53:17.He has two problems of which I think cannot be fixed. The less
:53:17. > :53:20.important one is the fact his fiscal policy for the time being
:53:20. > :53:24.lacks support amongst voters. But the more fundamental problem is
:53:24. > :53:29.that he has never really persuaded voters he is a plausible prime
:53:29. > :53:35.minister. Something about the way he is is not prime-ministerial.
:53:35. > :53:41.That is not fixable. Is he running out of time to change that? I don't
:53:41. > :53:45.think so. He needs to step up the pace. But it is interesting, have
:53:45. > :53:51.you ever been alone with Ed Miliband in a room, or with a small
:53:51. > :53:55.group, he has a kind of charisma, warmth and gravity that is easy to
:53:55. > :53:59.translate in a small room of people, but he is not getting through on a
:53:59. > :54:04.bigger stage. I was told that years ago about Ted Heath, that in a
:54:04. > :54:07.small room he was fine. The problem is we cannot will get into that
:54:07. > :54:11.room! You have seen glimpses of it already, like when he took on
:54:11. > :54:17.Murdoch, but it has had to translate it so it is every day.
:54:17. > :54:21.has plenty of time. There is no point installing a new leader now.
:54:21. > :54:25.That will not happen. The problem is people are talking about it so
:54:25. > :54:29.there is a discussion under way about who would be best, a lot of
:54:29. > :54:33.talk about the vet Cooper, of course there is no point putting
:54:33. > :54:38.someone in now because it will give them too much time to disappoint.
:54:38. > :54:44.On to Scotland... The Westminster try to do towards the referendum
:54:44. > :54:48.being headed up by George Osborne and Danny Alexander -- strategy. Do
:54:48. > :54:51.they know what they're doing? not think their intervention will
:54:52. > :54:55.do much other than provoke hostility not of the border from
:54:55. > :55:00.nationalists. Alex Salmond is playing a canny game in that sense.
:55:00. > :55:05.What could they have done as alternative? There is no way the UK
:55:05. > :55:09.prime minister can absent himself from the field of play on a
:55:09. > :55:13.question about that. That is why he made the intervention and many say
:55:13. > :55:20.he should have done it earlier. Having done it and entered the fray,
:55:20. > :55:24.do they know what they're doing? The Unionist case is quite strong.
:55:24. > :55:32.Alex Salmond is a great political tactician, he is increasingly a
:55:32. > :55:35.good first minister when it comes to running Scotland. But the
:55:35. > :55:39.practical obstacles to Scottish independence are so fundamental
:55:39. > :55:42.that you cannot get through them with tactics. David Cameron is
:55:42. > :55:46.working a delicate game here because he has one Conservative MP
:55:46. > :55:50.in Scotland and they will probably go down, also the Lib Dems are not
:55:50. > :55:53.popular there, so really the people who have to be leading this is
:55:53. > :56:03.Labour setting the played here and Alistair Darling would be very good.
:56:03. > :56:05.
:56:05. > :56:10.I tried to get him to sign on today but he still seems unclear if it is
:56:10. > :56:14.what he wants to do. The problem is what do they do next? I do not
:56:14. > :56:18.think they have to do a lot. It is all unravelling quickly. I grew up
:56:18. > :56:22.in Scotland, lived there for 26 years, started my career reporting
:56:22. > :56:27.at Hollyrood, I had no idea Alex Salmond planned to join the Euro.
:56:27. > :56:30.This is a giant con. Most people had no idea has gone and that was
:56:30. > :56:37.the policy, now within a few days he has changed it and the focus is
:56:37. > :56:43.on joining the sterling. The press coverage has been about Thatcherite
:56:43. > :56:46.Tory intervention. So predictable. But I was up there this week and I
:56:46. > :56:51.had a sense that for the first time Alex Salmond had met somebody his
:56:51. > :56:54.own size and was a bit on the back foot. The intriguing thing about
:56:54. > :57:00.Cameron and Alex Salmond is in their own respective nations they
:57:00. > :57:03.face no equal. Only in each other do they face the worthy rival. It
:57:03. > :57:13.is not just David Cameron, it is George Osborne behind-the-scenes
:57:13. > :57:18.doing the political thinking. And it is a fair number of Scots down
:57:18. > :57:26.here who can be the face and voice of the Unionist campaign in the way
:57:26. > :57:29.that Cameron and Osborne cannot. looks like it is a united front
:57:29. > :57:32.when it comes to Scotland and dealing with the nationals.
:57:32. > :57:37.Absolutely. They will have to help Labour's campaign, they are the
:57:37. > :57:45.only party that can do it. It can't be an Englishman, or Gordon Brown.
:57:45. > :57:49.A exactly. It does not leave many. -- exactly. He is a credible, a
:57:49. > :57:53.respected politician in a at a Reina but this will have to be
:57:53. > :57:58.cross-border and cross-party otherwise it will not work. -- in
:57:58. > :58:05.that arena. My final word would be keep George Osborne out of Scotland
:58:05. > :58:09.because he would be a recruiting influence. And Lord Forsyth. Do you
:58:09. > :58:14.think Alistair Darling will step up in the end? He would be very good
:58:14. > :58:20.at the job and this is all about Alex Salmond. He is a giant among
:58:20. > :58:25.political pygmies up there, let's put a match up against him. That is