:00:42. > :00:45.Good afternoon. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The Prime Minister
:00:45. > :00:48.insists this morning he is at one with Health Secretary, Andrew
:00:48. > :00:52.Lansley, over the troubled NHS reform. But is the rest of the
:00:52. > :00:55.Cabinet? Eric Pickles tells us in our top story.
:00:55. > :00:58.As Greece suffers and Syria bleeds, where does Labour stand on the big
:00:58. > :01:06.foreign policy issues of the day? Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas
:01:07. > :01:10.Alexander joins us for the Sunday interview.
:01:10. > :01:13.And with the Murdoch empire reeling from yet more high profile arrests
:01:13. > :01:18.at the Sun, we are joined by the media tycoon's chief tormentor,
:01:18. > :01:21.Labour MP Tom Watson. And as ever, our political panel of
:01:21. > :01:26.the best and the brightest are here to analyse British politics in the
:01:26. > :01:32.week ahead, and tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:32. > :01:35.In London, why the sums didn't add up in the mayor's 14 billion pound
:01:35. > :01:44.budget. And what will happen to transport and policing in the
:01:44. > :01:50.All that coming up in the next hour. But first the news with Maxine
:01:50. > :01:55.Mawhinney. Good afternoon. The singer, Whitney
:01:55. > :01:58.Houston, has died. She was 48. Los Angeles police say she was found in
:01:58. > :02:01.her hotel room at the Beverley Hilton yesterday afternoon. From
:02:01. > :02:11.the mid 1980s until the end of the 1990s, she was one of the world's
:02:11. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:20.# And I will always love you #. Whitney Houston was one of the
:02:20. > :02:28.world's bestselling artists, unassailable, from the mid- 1980s
:02:28. > :02:38.to the mid- 1990s. 11 number-one songs in America, 170 million songs
:02:38. > :02:39.
:02:39. > :02:44.sold worldwide. And six Grammies to her name. She was in Los Angeles
:02:44. > :02:48.for the awards ceremonies. The tragic last image of a woman whose
:02:48. > :02:53.voice inspired a generation of female singers. At midnight in Los
:02:54. > :02:58.Angeles, her body was removed from the Beverly Hilton Hotel, hours
:02:58. > :03:04.after paramedics had been called but were unable to revive her.
:03:04. > :03:07.Police still do not know what caused the death. The crime scene
:03:07. > :03:11.investigators are conducting an investigation to try to determine
:03:11. > :03:16.the cause of death. She died in a bedroom on the fourth floor of this
:03:16. > :03:21.hotel. It is the biggest weekend of the year for the music industry and
:03:21. > :03:27.a party is being hosted this evening. She was due to attend.
:03:27. > :03:31.This was her last performance. A spontaneous appearance two days ago.
:03:31. > :03:35.She was seen leaving a nightclub in the early hours of the morning on
:03:35. > :03:41.the day she died looking worse for wear. There was speculation she was
:03:41. > :03:45.found in the bath but as yet, it is not known how she died. Whitney
:03:45. > :03:48.Houston was 48. The Shadow Health Secretary, Andy
:03:48. > :03:52.Burnham, has urged the government to drop its plans for changing the
:03:52. > :03:55.health service. He said the moves, which involve giving control over
:03:55. > :03:59.much of the budget in England to family doctors, were not wanted by
:04:00. > :04:06.most NHS workers. In a newspaper article today, Mr Cameron gave his
:04:06. > :04:10.strong support to the Health Secretary Andrew Lansley.
:04:10. > :04:13.Rupert Murdoch is expected to fly to Britain in the coming days to
:04:13. > :04:16.try to tackle a crisis at the Sun newspaper. Last night five senior
:04:16. > :04:18.journalists on the paper were released on bail after being
:04:18. > :04:24.arrested over allegations of improper payments to police and
:04:24. > :04:30.public officials. Mr Murdoch has insisted he is committed to the Sun.
:04:30. > :04:33.More news on BBC One at 6:35pm. Andrew.
:04:33. > :04:36.We have always known that the Lib Dems weren't that keen on Andrew
:04:36. > :04:38.Lansley's health reforms but this week we discovered there is also
:04:38. > :04:42.considerable disquiet not just among Tory backbenchers, but among
:04:42. > :04:48.Tory Cabinet Ministers. The Prime Minister, however, is not for
:04:48. > :04:51.turning. This morning David Cameron insisted that he is at one with his
:04:51. > :04:55.Health Secretary, and that the plans for the NHS in England will
:04:55. > :05:00.go ahead. A little earlier this morning I was joined by Cabinet
:05:00. > :05:03.Minister Eric Pickles. I began by asking him why, after spending
:05:03. > :05:06.years trying to be trusted on the NHS, the government was proceeding
:05:06. > :05:10.with reforms the public didn't trust?
:05:10. > :05:17.It is important that we strengthen the health service and this Bill
:05:17. > :05:23.will do that by a natural evolution of giving more power to doctors and
:05:23. > :05:27.clinicians, removing a layer of bureaucracy, and proper regulating
:05:27. > :05:31.of competition between the state sector and the private sector,
:05:31. > :05:37.which has always existed in the health service. But you have not
:05:37. > :05:41.convinced the public. In 2010, the polls showed you were as trusted as
:05:41. > :05:46.Labour on the NHS. The latest polls show that almost two-thirds of
:05:46. > :05:53.people do not trust you on the NHS. We have to clearly demonstrate by
:05:53. > :06:00.these reforms that we will make the National Health Service a stronger
:06:00. > :06:05.institutions, that we retain that it is given to be a free service,
:06:05. > :06:13.that it will not be dependent on what you can pay, so we will ensure
:06:13. > :06:18.that local GPs are in a much stronger position to ensure people
:06:18. > :06:22.get the right health treatment. why aren't you trusted on the NHS
:06:22. > :06:28.any more? Why haven't you, Andrew Lansley, the Prime Minister, been
:06:28. > :06:33.able to convince people? We have to clearly demonstrate that this will
:06:33. > :06:38.make the health service much stronger. The prime minister says
:06:38. > :06:41.he is at one with Andrew Lansley. Isn't that a risky place for the
:06:41. > :06:48.Prime Minister to be, given that so many Tories don't like these
:06:48. > :06:51.reforms Ivor? You only need to spend some time with the Prime
:06:51. > :06:55.Minister to understand how passionately he supports the health
:06:55. > :07:01.service, how passionately he believes in making the health
:07:02. > :07:07.service stronger. We need to ensure... So why has he not
:07:07. > :07:12.convinced the people? These reforms will make... Why has he lost the
:07:12. > :07:17.trust of the British people? need to demonstrate that. We need
:07:17. > :07:21.to clearly demonstrate that these reforms will work. They are part of
:07:21. > :07:26.a natural process that has been going on for a considerable time.
:07:26. > :07:29.When you take on vested interests, sometimes there will be a degree of
:07:29. > :07:35.controversy but that should not deter you from doing what do you
:07:35. > :07:41.think is right. Maybe if you could convince your own side. Three
:07:41. > :07:46.Cabinet ministers urging the most prominent Tory -- Tory blogger for
:07:46. > :07:52.the Bill to be junked. Another Tory saying you are bankrupt on the
:07:52. > :07:57.issue. The Cabinet is fully supportive of these measures. The
:07:57. > :08:04.Cabinet voted for these measures of stock not win three ministers are
:08:04. > :08:09.urging for it to be junked. -- voted for these ministers. Not when
:08:09. > :08:14.three Tory ministers voted for it to be junked. The Cabinet that
:08:14. > :08:19.these reforms because they will make the health service stronger.
:08:19. > :08:25.One of your colleagues says you are in a phenomenal mess. I am sorry to
:08:25. > :08:28.hear him saying that. I am sure that once it is clearly
:08:28. > :08:35.demonstrated that the health service will be stronger by these
:08:35. > :08:40.reforms, that he will have the grace to admit he was wrong. Do you
:08:40. > :08:46.deny that three Cabinet ministers urged the Conservative blog to call
:08:46. > :08:52.for the Bill to be emasculated? have no knowledge of the internal
:08:52. > :08:57.workings of that blog but what I do know is that I am not aware of any
:08:57. > :09:02.Cabinet minister that has expressed reservations. You just said the
:09:02. > :09:07.Cabinet was totally united? I am not aware of the internal workings
:09:07. > :09:13.of that but I am aware of supportive discussions around the
:09:13. > :09:18.Cabinet table. Nadine Dorries says Andrew Lansley is toast. What do
:09:18. > :09:23.you say to her? I suspect that Andrew Lansley will have a long and
:09:24. > :09:29.distinguished record of the Health Secretary. So she is wrong? I guess
:09:29. > :09:35.she is wrong. -- yes, she is wrong. Do you think other Tory critics
:09:35. > :09:40.should now shut up? What I think is massively important is that we move
:09:40. > :09:45.forward with this Bill. People in the health service want to ensure
:09:45. > :09:50.that there is stability and continuity. This Bill ensures both
:09:50. > :09:55.stability and continuity. It is a natural extension of what the
:09:55. > :09:57.health service has been moving towards for 20 years and indeed,
:09:57. > :10:02.largely where the Labour Party wanted us to take the health
:10:02. > :10:06.service. And number of Conservative MPs are saying that they think
:10:06. > :10:11.these reforms could cost you an overall majority in the next
:10:11. > :10:14.election? You have to do the right thing. The right thing is to
:10:14. > :10:18.strengthen the health service. These reforms to strengthen the
:10:18. > :10:23.health service. They remove bureaucracy and they will save the
:10:23. > :10:28.best part of �4.5 billion, which can be reapplied to deal with
:10:28. > :10:34.patients, and that seems to me to be a sensible thing to do. A Tory
:10:34. > :10:39.MPs said, we cannot win an outright majority next time unless we have
:10:39. > :10:42.credibility on the NHS and we have lost that credibility. I am sure we
:10:42. > :10:47.will regain their lead in the polls with regard to the health service
:10:47. > :10:51.because these reforms, I am sorry to keep repeating this but I think
:10:51. > :10:56.it is important, they will make the National Health Service much
:10:56. > :11:01.stronger. And if you do not regain their credibility, you will not win
:11:01. > :11:04.an outright majority on something as important as the NHS? Being in
:11:04. > :11:09.government is about doing the right thing and ensuring that something
:11:09. > :11:12.as important and as precious as the health service comes out of any
:11:12. > :11:16.period of government stronger than you went in, and that is something
:11:16. > :11:20.that the Labour Party could not say. Thank you.
:11:20. > :11:22.With the scenes of bloodshed on our screens every day from Syria, the
:11:22. > :11:24.continuing British commitment in Afghanistan and the chaos and
:11:24. > :11:34.trauma inside the eurozone, foreign policy remains a central concern
:11:34. > :11:37.for British politics. So where does the opposition stand?
:11:37. > :11:43.Mention Labour and foreign policy and most people think of Tony Blair
:11:43. > :11:53.and Iraq. Hugely contentious war. It contributed to Labour losing 4.9
:11:53. > :11:56.
:11:56. > :12:00.It was one of the first issue's Ed Miliband felt he must address.
:12:00. > :12:05.believe we were wrong. Wrong to take Britain to war and we need to
:12:05. > :12:08.be honest about that. Wrong because war was not a last resort and
:12:09. > :12:14.because we undermined the United Nations. Since then Labour has
:12:14. > :12:18.backed action in Libya. The failure of the Security Council to agree
:12:18. > :12:22.even on a resolution condemning Syrian brutality has reopened
:12:22. > :12:25.questions about the role of the United Nations and the
:12:25. > :12:29.circumstances in which the international community should
:12:29. > :12:39.intervene. Joining us to discuss that his shadow Foreign Secretary,
:12:39. > :12:42.
:12:42. > :12:46.Douglas Alexander, Labour used to stand for an ethical foreign policy.
:12:46. > :12:52.Then we had Tony Blair's liberal interventionism. How would you
:12:52. > :12:58.summarise it now? I am innately sceptical of a doctrine per se but
:12:58. > :13:02.in terms of priorities, of course Afghanistan is at the top of the
:13:02. > :13:06.list with 10,000 British men and women in harm's way, but beyond
:13:06. > :13:10.that we remain true to my make into nationalist position and we will
:13:10. > :13:16.take a hard-headed view in some of the changes we are seeing.
:13:16. > :13:21.Realpolitik? No. It should be informed by values and interests
:13:21. > :13:27.and that is the approach we will take. On the biggest foreign policy
:13:27. > :13:35.call of all, since Suez, the Iraq war, did your government get it
:13:35. > :13:39.wrong? Ed Miliband said it was a mistake. What do you say? Listen,
:13:39. > :13:43.if I had the opportunity to cast their vote again that was cast in
:13:43. > :13:47.2003, I would not have voted for action because if we had known then
:13:47. > :13:53.what we know now, it turned out to be a war that did not need to be
:13:53. > :13:58.fought. That led to a terrible loss of life, and trust. That is why we
:13:58. > :14:02.should be informed by Iraq, not paralysed by it. Did you get it
:14:03. > :14:10.wrong because there were no weapons of mass destruction, the ostensible
:14:10. > :14:16.cause of the wall? Or because you invaded without UN sanctions?
:14:16. > :14:21.are arguments in terms of the revival principle, but there is no
:14:21. > :14:25.dispute that there were no weapons of mass destruction. That was a
:14:25. > :14:31.mistake and that is something that many people have made clear all
:14:32. > :14:35.their apologies. But would a Labour government take part in
:14:35. > :14:41.international intervention without UN approval? The Bar has been
:14:41. > :14:47.raised because of it back. With Libya, there is no doubt it was the
:14:47. > :14:51.combination of legal authority, and demand by the people of Libya that
:14:51. > :14:55.allowed Britain and others to participate. I will not speculate
:14:55. > :15:00.as to the position in the future but I am clear that in terms of
:15:00. > :15:07.where we are today, for example Syria, that we do need UN backing
:15:07. > :15:11.and that... I do not get the sense that in the West there is
:15:11. > :15:15.contemplation of military force. get the idea that the Labour
:15:15. > :15:21.government would not intervene if they did not get UN sanctions? It
:15:21. > :15:27.is unlikely? The circumstances need to be judged on a case-by-case
:15:27. > :15:34.basis. But the principle of getting UN backing where there is action
:15:34. > :15:40.taking place is crucial. Is there a problem that if you base British
:15:40. > :15:42.foreign-policy on UN approval...? You talked about your values. Take
:15:42. > :15:52.that and you may British foreign- policy a hostage of Russia and
:15:52. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:57.I don't think that is what I said. It needs to be judged on a case-by-
:15:57. > :16:02.case basis. But the context of European forces be used in an Arab
:16:02. > :16:07.country without local support, it seems to provide a better way
:16:07. > :16:13.forward. What is the choice we face in Syria? Is it the same as Libya?
:16:13. > :16:18.No, it is not. That is why I hope the Arab League leaders will
:16:18. > :16:22.shorten the choice faced by the Syrian regime. I'm still not clear,
:16:22. > :16:27.do you or do you not to proceed with or without UN support on
:16:27. > :16:30.military intervention as principle? You make that judgment on a case-
:16:30. > :16:35.by-case basis. Is it preferable to have United Nations backing? Of
:16:35. > :16:39.course it is. That is why it was significant and building a broad
:16:39. > :16:42.coalition in Libya. That would I say that in every circumstance
:16:42. > :16:45.Britain would not use force without the Russians or the Chinese? Of
:16:46. > :16:50.course not, we have the right to defend ourselves as a country in
:16:50. > :16:55.the future. That was the argument with Iraq. The Blair government
:16:55. > :16:59.said, preferable to going with a UN sanction, if we don't get it we are
:16:59. > :17:05.still going in. What has changed us to mark the bar of legitimacy has
:17:05. > :17:10.been raised. There are profound lessons that need to be learnt
:17:10. > :17:14.after Iraq. The approach that was taken not just in Britain, but in
:17:15. > :17:18.France, the United States and elsewhere in relation to Libya,
:17:18. > :17:23.that would not have happened without UN backing. The bar of
:17:23. > :17:26.legitimacy was raised by the long shadow of Iraq. Syria, there is not
:17:26. > :17:30.UN sanctions for going in, even if there was I'm not sure many
:17:30. > :17:34.countries would want to do so. Other than moral support, what
:17:34. > :17:37.practical support would you give the rebels? There is a meeting of
:17:37. > :17:41.the Arab League taking place today. I hope they will do a couple of
:17:41. > :17:46.specific things. First, ensure that sanctions are being imposed by
:17:46. > :17:51.their own members, principally Lebanon. If you look at the trade
:17:51. > :17:55.still happening, it is significant. Secondly, save havens for Syrian
:17:55. > :18:01.fighters that choose to leave the Syrian armed forces, potentially in
:18:01. > :18:05.Jordan or Turkey. On the board of Turkey, spilling into Syrian
:18:05. > :18:09.territory itself? We should sharpen the choice facing those military
:18:09. > :18:14.officers being directed to kill civilians by the regime. You can do
:18:14. > :18:18.that by providing them something they can go to if they choose to
:18:18. > :18:21.leave the armed forces. Secondly, we should be publishing the names
:18:21. > :18:24.of the offices shelling and they bring people in Homs at the moment,
:18:24. > :18:29.so they are aware that if we see the four of the regime they will be
:18:29. > :18:34.held responsible for the conduct they are engaged in. The policy of
:18:34. > :18:38.your party on Europe was clear air at one stage. To prepare to join
:18:38. > :18:42.the euro, to make a decision when you thought it was right and then
:18:42. > :18:48.to get support of the British people. Is that still your policy?
:18:48. > :18:51.No, nobody is seriously contemplating joining the euro on
:18:52. > :18:56.the Labour front bench for the considerable future. Circumstances
:18:56. > :19:00.have changed so profoundly from when we were in office and that is
:19:00. > :19:05.reflected in our thinking. would never say never, but for the
:19:05. > :19:08.foreseeable future you think it unlikely that Labour's policy would
:19:08. > :19:12.be to join the euro? I don't think it has been given serious
:19:12. > :19:17.contemplation at the moment, it is off the agenda. As Ed Miliband
:19:17. > :19:20.ruled it out? He is in the same position as the rest of us. He says
:19:20. > :19:24.the first responsibility is to deal with the problems in the eurozone.
:19:25. > :19:28.Ed is not giving consideration to Britain joining any time soon.
:19:28. > :19:31.Greek parliament has to take a vote won further austerity plans,
:19:31. > :19:36.including a cut in the minimum wage, which is not high in the first
:19:36. > :19:40.place. How should they vote? It's not for me to tell great
:19:40. > :19:45.parliamentarians how they should exercise their vote. I have deep
:19:45. > :19:48.concerns that the austerity alone approach being taken by eurozone
:19:48. > :19:54.countries will actually proved to be inadequate in the face of a
:19:54. > :19:58.crisis still affecting the country. Is it your policy that the aim of
:19:58. > :20:02.Brussels and will France and Germany should be to keep the
:20:02. > :20:05.eurozone with its 17 members as currently constituted? Listen, we
:20:05. > :20:09.want a stable and prosperous eurozone. There has been
:20:09. > :20:13.speculation by eurozone leaders themselves as to the future of
:20:13. > :20:17.individual countries. I don't know if it helps for Britain to join in
:20:17. > :20:23.that speculation. We are not convinced that the austerity only
:20:23. > :20:27.approach that is being taken, Greece hasn't seen growth for five
:20:27. > :20:32.years now, it doesn't have much prospect of success. There needs to
:20:32. > :20:36.be a plan, but one that addresses the structural problems as well as
:20:36. > :20:39.immediate decisions being taken by the eurozone the area. Wouldn't it
:20:39. > :20:44.relieve at least some of the pain on the quick people that it came
:20:44. > :20:48.out of the euro, devalued the currency and got back to graft?
:20:48. > :20:54.There are no risk-free options. maybe not as painful as cutting the
:20:54. > :20:59.minimum wage by 22%? I don't think anybody regards the prospect of a
:20:59. > :21:02.default by Greece as not carrying severe consequences for the quick
:21:02. > :21:06.people themselves. There are also potential consequences for other
:21:06. > :21:11.countries within the eurozone. That is why I hope they will take a more
:21:11. > :21:19.balanced view in the months ahead. European leaders are insisting that
:21:19. > :21:22.whoever leads after the election in Athens sticks with the policy.
:21:23. > :21:26.approach being taken by the eurozone is simply not working.
:21:26. > :21:30.That is why I fear we have not yet seen the final chapter of this pack
:21:30. > :21:34.-- crisis. These are extraordinary times for
:21:34. > :21:38.the tabloid press. After the hacking scandal, the closure of the
:21:38. > :21:43.News of the World and the launch of the Leveson Inquiry, Britain's most
:21:43. > :21:46.popular tabloid, The Sun, it is in crisis. The roster of high ranking
:21:46. > :21:50.journalists have allegations of payments to police and others
:21:50. > :21:55.forced Rupert Murdoch to assure staff yesterday that he remained
:21:55. > :22:00.committed to the paper. For months it has been a series of
:22:00. > :22:03.terrible headlines for the tabloid press. He Iraq news and national HQ
:22:03. > :22:07.there is a gap on the wall where the News of the World logo used to
:22:07. > :22:11.be, before the paper was closed down last year. This weekend they
:22:11. > :22:15.have been allegations against its sister title, The Sun. Rupert
:22:15. > :22:19.Murdoch says he is still behind the paper, which means people have been
:22:19. > :22:24.asking the question about whether he is or not. It makes these look
:22:24. > :22:28.like the glory days. Murdoch and his rivals invented a winning
:22:28. > :22:34.formula, scoops aplenty mixed with journalism that was campaigning.
:22:34. > :22:38.And sometimes less so... But recent years have been a shocker. A long
:22:38. > :22:41.rumbling scandal about phone hacking exploded when the News of
:22:41. > :22:46.the World was accused of listening to the voice mails of murdered
:22:46. > :22:49.schoolgirl Milly Dowler. Drawn in to it, David Cameron's former
:22:49. > :22:53.communications director Andy Coulson, the ex-editor of the News
:22:53. > :22:58.of the World who has always denied knowledge of the practice. That is
:22:58. > :23:01.now the subject of a police inquiry and one into the ethics of the
:23:01. > :23:05.press by Lord Justice Leveson, which has seen a torrent of further
:23:05. > :23:08.allegations. The Metropolitan Police have been running a separate
:23:08. > :23:13.investigation into whether illegal payments have been made by the
:23:13. > :23:17.papers to the police. That is what led to this weekend's arrests of
:23:17. > :23:20.five senior staff at The Sun, along with an official from the Ministry
:23:20. > :23:26.of Defence, so what from the odd forces among officer from Surrey
:23:26. > :23:29.police. -- someone from the armed forces and an officer for the
:23:30. > :23:34.Surrey police. There is a bigger question, is the good done by these
:23:34. > :23:38.papers are outweighed by all of the bad they are accused of?
:23:38. > :23:42.A so, what now for The Sun and tabloids in Britain? We are joined
:23:42. > :23:46.by Tom Watson, the Labour MP who has led criticism of News
:23:47. > :23:50.International. We had hoped to be joined by Kelvin MacKenzie, but he
:23:50. > :23:53.pulled out this morning. Journalists arrested at dawn, drag
:23:53. > :23:58.to the police station, isn't this process putting proper journalism
:23:58. > :24:03.in danger? Let me say to you is that the reason I am here today is
:24:03. > :24:08.that I was hoping to debate Kelvin MacKenzie. I understand, so were we.
:24:08. > :24:12.Like any tabloid bully, he has run at the sound of gunfire. The point
:24:12. > :24:16.you make is very important. Derry is a danger of that. We have to
:24:16. > :24:20.understand how we got here. We got here because this scandal has gone
:24:20. > :24:24.beyond phone hacking and gone to the very heart of corporate
:24:24. > :24:28.government at News International, the company led by Rupert Murdoch.
:24:28. > :24:33.They failed to deal with wrongdoing over many years. Now we have a
:24:33. > :24:36.police investigation that is going deep. I understand, but I'm
:24:36. > :24:41.worrying that the spillover into newspaper journalism in general, I
:24:41. > :24:44.speak to journalists a lot and so do you, they are feeling cowed and
:24:44. > :24:49.restricted. The Sun journalists say that there is a witch-hunt against
:24:49. > :24:52.them. Isn't it time to pull back or we will lose free press? The free
:24:52. > :24:58.press and credibility of it only works when they don't break door or
:24:59. > :25:02.at least have a cogent view of what public interest is. At we have the
:25:02. > :25:06.tabloid press on trial by the public because of wrong doing over
:25:06. > :25:10.many years. Good journalists lost their jobs when they close to the
:25:10. > :25:14.News of the World. I feel for those very talented tabloid journalists
:25:14. > :25:18.that must be living in fear at the Sun right now. But he was
:25:18. > :25:22.responsible for that? The guy at the top, Rupert Murdoch. He creates
:25:22. > :25:25.the culture that allows these things to go on. It looks like they
:25:25. > :25:29.have been arrested because of paying for stories. Surely paying
:25:29. > :25:33.for stories can be justified if it is in the public interest? It would
:25:33. > :25:37.be wrong of me to speculate too much of why they have been arrested.
:25:37. > :25:41.They have not been challenged. phone hacking scandal would only
:25:41. > :25:45.have come into the public domain, I would only have got information, or
:25:45. > :25:49.rather I would not have got information had it not been for
:25:49. > :25:52.whistleblowers in the police and at the heart of News International.
:25:52. > :25:56.The noble tradition of whistle- blowing is what keeps the democracy
:25:56. > :26:00.clean. A free press is part of that. What is wrong with paying for
:26:00. > :26:04.stories? When people give information, not because they think
:26:04. > :26:08.it is right but because of money, that is when the institutions of
:26:08. > :26:12.democracy are corroded and things start to go very badly wrong.
:26:12. > :26:18.newspaper had not been prepared to pay, we would never have found out
:26:19. > :26:23.about the scandal MP expenses. There was a clear public interest
:26:23. > :26:27.defence on that. So it was not wrong? Personally, I think the
:26:27. > :26:31.scandal MP expenses goes back to Parliament not being able to
:26:31. > :26:36.regulate itself. A journalist wrote the story and the officials from
:26:36. > :26:40.whom they got the story, they had stolen the information and sold it
:26:40. > :26:44.on. Should these people face investigation and prosecution?
:26:44. > :26:49.should certainly justify if there was a public interest defence. I
:26:49. > :26:52.think the Speaker of the House of Commons, in failing to continue
:26:52. > :27:01.with the internal investigation, took that view. If someone hadn't
:27:01. > :27:10.paid for the story, that you claim a maximum of �4,000.800, �100,000
:27:10. > :27:16.on upon -- apartments, as an MP. didn't do that, but what I claimed
:27:16. > :27:20.was in the park -- public domain. For most people it was not. It was
:27:20. > :27:26.paid for journalism that got it. I doubt anybody would do that now,
:27:26. > :27:30.given the climate of fear. I am certain they would. If I was
:27:30. > :27:34.fiddling my expenses, I am sure that every tabloid newspaper would
:27:35. > :27:39.be almost like a shot. Would it be OK to pay a Commons official to do
:27:39. > :27:43.so? There is public interest in all of this, you could have a public
:27:43. > :27:48.interest defence for hacking a phone if the level of seriousness
:27:48. > :27:53.warranted it. Would you like to see Rupert Murdoch dispose of his
:27:53. > :27:56.remaining newspaper and essentially depart these shores? I would like
:27:56. > :28:00.Rupert Murdoch to stand up for clean investigative journalism. I
:28:00. > :28:08.would like him to clean up what went on at News International.
:28:08. > :28:12.don't want him to sell out? That is down to News Corp. You have a view
:28:12. > :28:16.on those things he does! I just wanted to take responsibility for
:28:16. > :28:19.what happened that his company. A lot of people lower down the food
:28:19. > :28:26.chain have carried the can. He's flying into London and should take
:28:26. > :28:32.his share of responsibility. Given the arrests, and if people are
:28:32. > :28:37.charged, is he a fit and proper person to hold a licence for Sky?
:28:37. > :28:42.No, I don't think so. He should be forced to relieve himself of that
:28:42. > :28:46.percentage? Ofcom have to apply that test. It's clear that over a
:28:46. > :28:51.number of years wrongdoing took place at a number of newspapers at
:28:51. > :28:55.News International. Therefore, he is not a fit and proper person to
:28:55. > :29:00.run a television company. Clear enough. When it comes to paying the
:29:00. > :29:06.police and other public officials, can we agree it is not confined to
:29:06. > :29:10.Rupert Murdoch's papers? Everybody tells me that. The only evidence I
:29:10. > :29:14.have seen personally is what went on at News International. Clearly,
:29:14. > :29:18.we now have an inquiry that will do that. How did we get here? It is
:29:18. > :29:23.Rupert Murdoch that appoints bullies like Kelvin MacKenzie,
:29:23. > :29:26.small children like Dominic Mohan to run these very big institutions
:29:26. > :29:31.of national newspapers of repute. He is responsible for the personnel
:29:31. > :29:35.that allowed these things to happen. He must take responsibility for it.
:29:35. > :29:41.And you don't rule out it could be happening elsewhere? Obviously not.
:29:41. > :29:44.But I don't know. Now, you are watching Sunday
:29:44. > :29:49.Politics. Coming up in 20 minutes, I will be looking at the week ahead
:29:49. > :29:59.with our political paddle. Until then, the Sunday politics across
:29:59. > :30:06.
:30:06. > :30:11.Hello. In the capital this week we are focusing on the mayor's budget
:30:11. > :30:15.for next year and where the sums did not quite add up this week and
:30:15. > :30:23.should be council taxpayer be favoured over the commuter? Here
:30:23. > :30:29.with us, Mary MacLeod, Conservative MP, and Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP
:30:29. > :30:36.for Tooting, shadowed Justice Secretary. Can we kick off with a
:30:36. > :30:41.quick comment about Boris Johnson...? -- shadowed Justice
:30:41. > :30:49.Secretary. That the London mayor should have control about the rail
:30:49. > :30:59.service. We do need an integrated approach. I am positive about Boris
:30:59. > :31:01.
:31:01. > :31:05.been given no opportunity to look across transport -- an opportunity.
:31:05. > :31:09.Starting outside the capital, it is plagued with difficulties. It is
:31:09. > :31:13.complex and it would take a lot of planning to get it right but I
:31:13. > :31:18.think the commuter is often confused by it in terms of where
:31:18. > :31:24.London starts and stops and when they can use their Oyster Card.
:31:24. > :31:29.you look at this when you would transport secretary? It is a good
:31:29. > :31:34.ideas. The problem is, dealing with each individual train operating
:31:34. > :31:42.company is a nightmare. When Ken began negotiations for the Oyster
:31:42. > :31:48.Card, it took him years to get it to fruition... The final push from
:31:48. > :31:55.Boris to make it happen? Myself, actually. The key issue is joined-
:31:55. > :31:58.up transport. Many commuters live on the outskirts of London, and
:31:58. > :32:05.have a train operating company where the mayor has no say, and I
:32:05. > :32:09.think this is a very good idea. A lot of the contracts come up for
:32:09. > :32:14.renewal over the next few years. Last week we've looked at the use
:32:14. > :32:18.of injunctions to deal with gangs. This week the Met launched a major
:32:18. > :32:25.initiative to tackle this problem. It has involved refocusing of
:32:25. > :32:33.Operation Trident. The essence of this is blaming the police together
:32:33. > :32:37.with all the other key agencies to bed down on an estimated 250 gangs
:32:37. > :32:43.responsible for the violent offences in the capital. The worst
:32:43. > :32:46.thing is to throw things in the air and get rid of the past. We will
:32:46. > :32:50.build on the success of Operation Trident but it is not a black
:32:50. > :32:57.problem. The people in gangs and represent the diversity of London.
:32:57. > :33:03.I don't care what colour they are. You are having all kinds of reviews
:33:03. > :33:08.about this across the board. Is this the right answer? It is a good
:33:08. > :33:14.idea. This is the really good idea. It was originally positive three
:33:14. > :33:18.years ago and the Met police decided not to do it. They did not
:33:18. > :33:23.want to glamorise being a member of a gang that it is a big issue in
:33:23. > :33:27.London, not just inner-city London. This Commissioner understands it is
:33:27. > :33:33.important to be tough on those in gangs but also to find alternatives,
:33:33. > :33:38.and that means working with councils, abrasion, schools, so
:33:38. > :33:44.young people have something productive to do -- councils,
:33:44. > :33:49.probation. So you think this has allowed the problem to get worse?
:33:49. > :33:55.Three years ago, it was suggested and the then commissioner was not
:33:55. > :34:01.keen on it. It was certainly five years ago when Ken Livingstone was
:34:01. > :34:06.mayor? The issue has been going for 20 years, 30 years. I was growing
:34:06. > :34:10.up with this issue in my community. The important thing is we know
:34:10. > :34:15.there are part of the country where there has been successful victories
:34:15. > :34:20.for gangs. Strathclyde in Scotland is a good example. By local
:34:20. > :34:25.authorities, police and schools, coming together. What is important
:34:25. > :34:31.it needs to be with education, employment and training for young
:34:31. > :34:35.people. Many of these communities, prevalent with gangs, the person
:34:35. > :34:43.who is a role model is the young man who has got a nice car and two
:34:43. > :34:49.is in a gang. How much is riding on this? -- and who is. Violence is
:34:49. > :34:53.beginning to go up a game. Crime was down in London by 10% but that
:34:53. > :35:00.does not mean we ignore this issue of gang culture, which is prevalent
:35:00. > :35:05.in London. Of the number of gangs, 60 are really serious, that the
:35:05. > :35:12.police really want to tackle. Given what happened last summer, it is
:35:12. > :35:15.really important we deal with this and deal with it from a young age.
:35:15. > :35:20.Looking at families and how families can help to sort out some
:35:20. > :35:23.of the issues. There is a lot of work that needs to be done and the
:35:23. > :35:31.Commissioner is right to be launching this and taking it
:35:31. > :35:36.seriously. These people are doing crimes on a daily basis. If it is
:35:36. > :35:41.just an enforcement policing thing, will it work? I think it will. When
:35:41. > :35:46.you have a focused project like this, which is saying this is a top
:35:46. > :35:52.priority for policing in London, everyone absolutely get on the
:35:52. > :35:58.Agenda and says, we are going to do this Foster is there the money?
:35:58. > :36:03.we are going to do this. Is there the money? I think so. The mayor
:36:03. > :36:07.will make this a priority. We do not want a repeat of last summer.
:36:07. > :36:13.We will make sure this does not happen again, support the victims
:36:13. > :36:18.who were hurt by this, and make sure that for London, we are
:36:18. > :36:22.cutting down gun crime on an ongoing basis. It is not just a
:36:22. > :36:28.police issue and the police by themselves cannot solve this. You
:36:28. > :36:35.need a family dimension at a young age. We shall start closing down,
:36:36. > :36:40.that is a problem. It needs youth offending teams -- Sure Start. The
:36:40. > :36:45.police by themselves will not lead to the success stories we have seen
:36:45. > :36:49.in Strathclyde and elsewhere. is where we have to work together.
:36:49. > :36:54.My Labour council in Hounslow wanted to cut youth counselling
:36:54. > :36:58.services and we fought against that, ridiculous. We need to support
:36:58. > :37:04.young people and get them on to the right path so we can have a say for
:37:04. > :37:08.London. Warned that in a moment. We have enough money for investment in
:37:08. > :37:12.policing and transport but we are also making sure you do not have to
:37:12. > :37:17.pay too much. That was the message from Boris Johnson this week that
:37:17. > :37:21.his opponents says he is making the wrong choices and we found an
:37:22. > :37:30.embarrassing slip up in the accounts.
:37:30. > :37:35.This, say his critics say, is foreign -- Boris Johnson's eye-
:37:35. > :37:42.watering offer to the electorate. By cutting his share of council tax
:37:42. > :37:46.by 1%, the mayor is giving the average house or 26p a month.
:37:46. > :37:50.Enough to buy an onion. Conservatives are pleased with what
:37:50. > :37:54.this symbolises. It means Boris Johnson has been cutting down on
:37:54. > :37:59.waste and giving you something to put in your pocket. The difficulty
:37:59. > :38:05.with that message is this: The mayor is taking more out of London
:38:05. > :38:10.has this year and he was last year. For every �1 he takes on Londoners
:38:10. > :38:15.in council tax, he takes another �4 through public transport fares, and
:38:15. > :38:20.the price of travel is rising. So much so that Ken Livingstone is
:38:20. > :38:25.trying to frame the election debate as one between Boris's 1 onion a
:38:25. > :38:29.week and his cut in fares, which he claims will save the average
:38:29. > :38:34.commuter �1,000 over his time in office faster even after the cut,
:38:34. > :38:39.we will still have the highest fares in the world. Why should they
:38:39. > :38:45.be twice what it is in Paris? I am embarrassed we are not cutting them
:38:45. > :38:50.more. When I cut fares at the GLC, we cut them by a third. It is not
:38:50. > :38:54.just Labour. I think there is the difference between those of us who
:38:54. > :39:00.would like to see transport fares go down and those of us trying to
:39:00. > :39:05.put them up. He's a tough times for Londoners and putting fares down is
:39:05. > :39:10.the only way to go -- these are tough times. The Lib Dems also say
:39:10. > :39:15.they would cut back on waste at city hall. Why are you spending so
:39:15. > :39:21.much on police? The senior officers get free chauffeur-driven cars and
:39:21. > :39:26.accommodation and transport. They are spending large amounts on what
:39:26. > :39:30.we would call propaganda, publicity films, and not cutting waste.
:39:30. > :39:36.this is the image of Boris Johnson's City Hall the mayor's
:39:36. > :39:40.opponents would have us believe? Costs inflating. So is spending
:39:40. > :39:46.really going up and up and up? The answer has been quite hard to find
:39:46. > :39:51.out. This is the mayor's budget, signed off by the London Assembly
:39:51. > :39:57.this week. At first glance it would appear spending is going up by 2.3
:39:57. > :40:02.billion, or 13%. However we have learnt those figures are wrong.
:40:02. > :40:07.City Hall made a mistake with the numbers and are out in places by
:40:07. > :40:12.nearly �4 billion. That is a quarter of the budget or the entire
:40:12. > :40:22.police end for one year. City Hall told us this was due to a clerical
:40:22. > :40:23.
:40:23. > :40:27.Boris Johnson was elected on the ticket of driving out waste and
:40:27. > :40:31.inefficiency at City Hall. This may, you will find his opponents saying
:40:31. > :40:38.they will do exactly the same to him, and offering London more than
:40:38. > :40:44.just an onion. I am joined by the mayor's chief of
:40:44. > :40:48.staff. You are one of the lead offices of this. Did you read the
:40:49. > :40:54.Budget clearly? Absolutely. We go through this Budget time after time
:40:54. > :41:00.and it goes before the assembly on many occasions and unfortunately,
:41:00. > :41:07.there was align with the Crosswell spend that came in and it was
:41:07. > :41:12.interpreted wrong. -- CrossRail. billion wrong? It was an error in
:41:12. > :41:18.one particular chart, that's all. Let's not make it more than it is.
:41:18. > :41:25.Page two of the final copy of the legal document presented to the
:41:25. > :41:29.London Assembly. Answer that first. No, I have said to you... These are
:41:29. > :41:34.headline figures. How much are we spending on capital and revenue on
:41:34. > :41:41.transport, and you check in another 4 billion? Because they put in the
:41:41. > :41:47.entire CrossRail spend into that. And you did not spot it? It was not
:41:47. > :41:52.spotted. Can I make the point, that is not keep. The key is, what is
:41:52. > :41:57.Boris doing with the Budget coming forward? He is reducing the budget.
:41:57. > :42:02.He has held the budget for four years. That has been a consistent
:42:03. > :42:08.message that Boris has done. Prior to him, the budget went up by over
:42:08. > :42:18.�900... You are talking about council tax, not the budget. Yes,
:42:18. > :42:19.
:42:19. > :42:25.52%. 2011, 934 million. Next year, 935 million. You are spending more
:42:25. > :42:29.for. Correct but we are also taking on the Housing Corporation, the
:42:29. > :42:39.Department of local government, the London Thames Gateway Corporation,
:42:39. > :42:39.
:42:39. > :42:44.the Old El the AA functions. All of these are now absorbed -- LDA. If
:42:44. > :42:48.you look at that on a year-by-year comparison, Boris Johnson has
:42:48. > :42:53.reduced by �2 billion. The talking about cutting spending, you are
:42:53. > :42:58.reducing spending on capital investment, on transport, excluding
:42:58. > :43:02.CrossRail, next year. How come people are paying big increases if
:43:02. > :43:09.you are put in less money into the system? Because that happens to be
:43:09. > :43:14.this bend in that particular year. What does that mean? -- this bend.
:43:14. > :43:17.You have to look at the spending on infrastructure. If you look at its
:43:17. > :43:23.going forward, he would see the massive increases of the upgrade of
:43:23. > :43:28.different lines -- you will see. People will be expected to pay more
:43:28. > :43:32.and more but you are paying less for Investment? No, it is for
:43:32. > :43:37.investment. We have to raise that money now so that we can go forward
:43:37. > :43:42.and do the work. How much of a problem is the amount people are
:43:43. > :43:51.having to pay for increased fares? Do you accept that the �3.10
:43:51. > :43:56.reduction in annual council tax bills is scandalous compensation?
:43:56. > :44:01.�3.10 reduction. It is going down, not up. Under the previous
:44:01. > :44:06.administration, it was up every year. We know that. This is the
:44:07. > :44:12.direction of travel. Set it is a gesture. The mayor has held it. It
:44:12. > :44:18.is now going down. He will continue to drive down costs. The issue on
:44:18. > :44:24.fares, and yes, the mayor fully accepts they are high. We all
:44:24. > :44:28.accept that. It is hard. Everybody is finding it hard. But anybody who
:44:28. > :44:33.uses London Transport knows the problems. They know how creaking
:44:33. > :44:38.infrastructure is, they know about and Investment. If we do not do
:44:38. > :44:42.that, in the long term, we will not get cheaper transport. A senior
:44:42. > :44:47.Conservative said today that those people that use it should pay for
:44:47. > :44:50.it and the majority of Londoners do not use public transport. Is there
:44:50. > :44:54.a thinking that it should just be the burden on the commuter? That
:44:54. > :44:59.subsidy should come down from government and that households
:44:59. > :45:02.should not pay for transport? don't think that has ever been the
:45:02. > :45:08.mayor's argument. The mayor has always said he would deliver the
:45:08. > :45:12.cheapest possible transport system that he can. The mayor has taken
:45:12. > :45:16.very significant sums of money out of London Transport to pay for the
:45:16. > :45:22.infrastructure. Going forward in the Budget, you have seen the
:45:22. > :45:32.Budget, there is 1.7 billion of further reductions. He's a massive
:45:32. > :45:33.
:45:33. > :45:39.Sadiq Kahn, they have not done badly in very austere times to keep
:45:39. > :45:44.investment on track? The direction of travel is a year on year
:45:44. > :45:48.increase in fares. This year, 7%. The direction of travel is a year
:45:48. > :45:54.on year cuts in police numbers over the next four years. Even Boris
:45:54. > :46:01.Johnson conceded 1700 drop in police officers. Oh, come on!
:46:01. > :46:05.is rubbish! That is the direction of travel. He conceded earlier that
:46:05. > :46:09.the investment is in Crossrail, rather than the creaking Tube. It's
:46:09. > :46:13.not true to say that the mayor has been prudent and spend money in an
:46:13. > :46:17.effective way. Most Londoners who use the Tube are finding it really
:46:17. > :46:22.hard to pay the increase in the fares as a consequence of this
:46:22. > :46:29.mayor. What is also the case, and I am not sure if he will also say
:46:29. > :46:31.this is an error, in last year's TfL budget there was an unplanned
:46:31. > :46:38.surplus of �700 million. In the last six months, a further
:46:38. > :46:41.unplanned surplus. I want to know one thing from you, a one-off
:46:41. > :46:43.payment of �90 million to bed at the mayor this year. If you talk to
:46:44. > :46:48.Nick Herbert, will he guarantee giving that money next year, the
:46:49. > :46:53.year after, to keep police numbers up? Guarantee it now, it is your
:46:53. > :46:58.opportunity! I'm afraid I can't guarantee anything. I do think it's
:46:58. > :47:03.very important for London this year, with the Olympics, that we have the
:47:03. > :47:07.infrastructure to support London in terms of policing. We will have
:47:07. > :47:13.1000 more police officers on the streets of London by made 2012.
:47:13. > :47:17.Sorry, I couldn't get the money guaranteed. One final comment on
:47:17. > :47:21.transport. And firstly going to deal with the police in numbers.
:47:21. > :47:31.32,000, there or thereabouts, is the number that Boris is committed
:47:31. > :47:31.
:47:31. > :47:37.to. Deal with the transport. Like- for-like. 34,300. He is
:47:37. > :47:41.guaranteeing 1000 more police on the streets. Transport, if you can.
:47:41. > :47:44.Transport, the investment is on the whole of the rail infrastructure,
:47:44. > :47:51.not just Crossrail. The sums of money are large, very significant
:47:51. > :47:54.and spread over a number of years. Thank you for coming in. Stay with
:47:54. > :48:04.us for the remainder of the spot. What else has been happening in the
:48:04. > :48:06.
:48:06. > :48:08.City this week? Here is an idea in The consultation on the
:48:08. > :48:13.controversial London super sewer closed this week, with the expert
:48:13. > :48:17.who originally recommended a scheme causing a bit of a stinker. He now
:48:17. > :48:21.considers the proposed scheme to be economically unviable. Lib-Dem MP
:48:21. > :48:24.Simon Hughes was the latest high- profile personality to receive
:48:24. > :48:28.damages from the publisher of the News of the World for having his
:48:28. > :48:31.own act. The evidence clearly demonstrates that the practice of
:48:31. > :48:35.hacking was widespread. If you are lucky enough to have a ticket for
:48:35. > :48:37.the London Olympics, it will not be made in Britain. To the
:48:37. > :48:41.consternation of the British business community, the contract
:48:41. > :48:44.was awarded to an American firm. Six months from the summer riots
:48:44. > :48:50.and almost nine out of 10 victims are still waiting for compensation.
:48:50. > :48:56.So far, the Met have made almost 4000 arrests and 13th hundred
:48:56. > :48:59.people have been sentenced. 650 received com -- custodial sentences.
:48:59. > :49:09.Transport for London have announced that 500 blackspot junctions in
:49:09. > :49:10.
:49:10. > :49:16.London are to be reviewed in a move Quick thoughts, Sadiq Khan. Has
:49:16. > :49:19.cycling become more dangerous? Is it safe in London? It is not. I am
:49:19. > :49:23.pleased that The Times newspaper has this fantastic campaign, which
:49:23. > :49:27.Ken Livingstone has signed up for. Many people would like to cycle to
:49:27. > :49:31.work, school or college, but they are scared because it is dangerous.
:49:31. > :49:34.One of your constituents was killed on this roundabout, wasn't she?
:49:34. > :49:38.That is right. The cycle superhighway is great. I think it
:49:38. > :49:43.will make it much safer. It's good that they are looking at the 500
:49:43. > :49:47.junctions, they are also looking at traffic lights to make sure that
:49:47. > :49:50.lorries get to see cyclists around them. We are heading in the right
:49:50. > :49:54.direction. It is a serious issue that we need to get on top of but
:49:54. > :50:04.we are doing the right things. Thanks very much indeed to both of
:50:04. > :50:06.
:50:06. > :50:10.Don't go thinking there will be no politics, it really doesn't work
:50:10. > :50:20.that way. What will be grabbing the political headlines in the week
:50:20. > :50:26.I was looking at the various tax stories, including doors, this
:50:26. > :50:31.morning, sticking with the 50 pence to operate until 2015, back Tory
:50:31. > :50:36.backbenchers not getting the married couple's allowance, the
:50:36. > :50:41.talk of an end to higher tax relief on pensions for the better-off,
:50:41. > :50:46.child benefit, the 40 pence band to be scrapped and so on. Where is the
:50:46. > :50:50.conduct in the con-Dem coalition budget? There is no money, that is
:50:50. > :50:55.the problem. The Lib Dems have set the running on this. They've
:50:55. > :50:58.recently said that they have been quite aggressive and want the
:50:58. > :51:07.minimum level for income tax to be raised to �10,000. The onus is now
:51:07. > :51:11.one then -- now on them to find ways to pay for it. One of the
:51:11. > :51:14.ideas floating around, at a time when Mr Cameron is not Top of the
:51:14. > :51:18.Pops with his own backbenchers, this will go down like a lead
:51:18. > :51:23.balloon. The frustrating thing for Tory MPs is that, having swallowed
:51:23. > :51:28.a watering down of the Europe veto, and other tough things in recent
:51:28. > :51:33.weeks, to swallow a budget that is more of a liberal budget than a
:51:33. > :51:36.Conservative one would be provoking a lot of them into anger. Electa
:51:36. > :51:42.orally, this is exactly the right move because of the public is
:51:42. > :51:47.thinking that too many vulnerable people is taking the hit on the
:51:47. > :51:51.cuts. It also colonises Labour's ground. It is a smooth move, but
:51:51. > :51:56.Cameron has to pay the cost with his backbenchers. If you think
:51:56. > :52:02.there are 50 Lib-Dems in Parliament and 300 Conservative MPs, I think
:52:02. > :52:06.they are thinking, what is the point? What is the point of a
:52:06. > :52:10.Conservative government if they continually veto these measures?
:52:10. > :52:14.don't think there was a great amount of expectation from Tory MPs
:52:14. > :52:18.that there would be something on the married tax allowance. It is an
:52:18. > :52:21.aspiration, Cameron has never said he was going to do it. The Lib-Dems
:52:21. > :52:25.have commandeered all of the money for their plan to take lower
:52:25. > :52:30.earners out of income tax. None of it is a done deal yet. It's going
:52:31. > :52:34.to be very expensive. There are rumours at the moment going around
:52:34. > :52:37.saying what is going to come up in the Queen's Speech? The Lib Dems
:52:37. > :52:42.veto anything that the Conservatives would like to put
:52:43. > :52:47.forward at the moment. There is a real question, what is the
:52:47. > :52:49.Conservative government for? marriage tax allowance is being
:52:49. > :52:53.portrayed as a conservative concession to the Lib Dems. George
:52:53. > :52:57.Osborne is probably the most socially liberal member of the
:52:57. > :53:02.Cabinet. He was never desperately keen on the idea to begin with.
:53:02. > :53:04.Even though Tories are now making these various Treasury based
:53:04. > :53:07.concessions to the Lib-Dems, they will ask for something in return.
:53:07. > :53:11.It probably will not be the 50 pence top rate of income tax being
:53:11. > :53:15.removed, but may be something of labour market regulations to boost
:53:15. > :53:20.the economy of the supply-side. Let's move on to the NHS, the story
:53:20. > :53:26.this weekend, it has been for a while. Where are we on these
:53:26. > :53:30.reforms? I assume the bill will get onto the statute book, right?
:53:30. > :53:34.always said that and I firmly believe it will. I think where we
:53:34. > :53:37.are is at a place of weary resignation on the part of the
:53:37. > :53:42.Prime Minister and every other Cabinet minister in public,
:53:42. > :53:46.privately, weary resignation. They cannot drop this bill, it will go
:53:46. > :53:50.through. I get the impression that the people that angry now are the
:53:50. > :53:54.Lib Dems around Mr Clegg. They are saying, we have gone out on a limb
:53:54. > :53:58.and now it is the Tories undermining it? There are
:53:58. > :54:07.strategists at number 10 and Number 11 that secretly wish that the Lib-
:54:07. > :54:12.Dems have forced them to scrap the bill this time last year. Not just
:54:12. > :54:17.the bill, Andrew Lansley's future, David Cameron seems to feel
:54:17. > :54:22.historical loyalty to him, but I don't believe that for a second.
:54:22. > :54:26.you want a friend in politics, get a dog? Of all the words I would use
:54:26. > :54:29.to describe David Cameron, sentimental is not one of them. I
:54:29. > :54:32.think David Cameron still rate him as a policy maker and a technocrat,
:54:32. > :54:37.and he still rates the Bill as something that will deliver
:54:37. > :54:41.efficiencies in the NHS. I just think there is short-termism on
:54:41. > :54:48.this. I completely agree with the Conservative ministers that spoke
:54:48. > :54:53.out on Conservative Home this week. Anonymously! As they do. Any single
:54:53. > :54:58.time that the NHS's has anything going wrong between now and the
:54:58. > :55:03.election, it will depend to David Cameron's door. It is bigger than
:55:03. > :55:09.the NHS, it is the detoxification of the conservative brand. The NHS
:55:09. > :55:12.was used to win trust back for the Tories. If that trust wanes, I
:55:12. > :55:15.think it does have the power to take them down. I think that is
:55:15. > :55:20.true, but I don't think the next election will be determined by the
:55:20. > :55:25.NHS. It will be determined by who is the best leader and which party
:55:25. > :55:31.is the most economically credible. On those measures, until the next
:55:31. > :55:35.election, I think the Tories still have that. For the question is if
:55:35. > :55:38.patients will notice any difference. I can't work out if this is a
:55:38. > :55:41.radical reform or not. I don't think the Government can work that
:55:41. > :55:45.out. Now they are slightly saying that it is evolution, not
:55:45. > :55:51.revolution. The chief-executive of the NHS has said that the reforms
:55:51. > :55:56.are so big we could see them from space. I just don't buy that.
:55:56. > :56:00.Murdoch, flying into another crisis at News International. Now it is
:56:00. > :56:03.The Sun. He has kind of lost control of the Standards Committee,
:56:03. > :56:08.which is doing its own thing and giving the police all of these e-
:56:08. > :56:13.mails. How big a crisis is this, not just for Mr Murdoch, but the
:56:13. > :56:20.tabloid press? Potentially it goes beyond the tabloid press. The
:56:20. > :56:25.profits of the Sun to pay part in cross-subsidising other parts of
:56:25. > :56:29.the Murdoch empire. Including The Times, I don't know about the
:56:29. > :56:33.Sunday Times. If The Sun was to go down, that would have implications
:56:33. > :56:38.not just for the rest of the tabloid sector but for the quality
:56:38. > :56:43.press as well. If the important thing to say is that The Sun is not
:56:43. > :56:46.a rogue newspaper and never has been. While I don't want to see the
:56:46. > :56:49.newspaper industry further clobbered, times are difficult
:56:49. > :56:54.enough as they are, it would be entirely wrong for an investigation
:56:54. > :56:59.like this to focus purely on News International titles. Well, it will
:56:59. > :57:03.go wider? Yes, massively. This is only the beginning. Every time it
:57:03. > :57:08.tries to be contained, it keeps infecting. The contagion is
:57:08. > :57:11.constant. What we learned from the News of the World is that none of
:57:11. > :57:15.these titles are too big to fail any more. This kind of crisis has
:57:15. > :57:20.come on at the same time that the media is not making much money for
:57:20. > :57:23.itself at the moment. A combination of that damage of reputation with
:57:23. > :57:26.the kind of economic damage being done in the media industry I think
:57:26. > :57:34.it is a pretty lethal combination. I wouldn't take anything of the
:57:34. > :57:37.table. Some bits of the print media still make a profit. Show-off!
:57:37. > :57:42.sometimes wonder if Rupert Murdoch doesn't say, right, that's it, I'm
:57:42. > :57:47.out of here. He might. You are all against a, it's a small part of my
:57:47. > :57:52.empire. You worked with him, what do you think he is going to do?
:57:52. > :57:56.still loves his tabloid newspapers. He said clearly yesterday that he
:57:56. > :58:00.is committed to The Sun. When he feels the need to say that, you
:58:00. > :58:07.know that there is a question about it was a bare eye implications on
:58:07. > :58:12.his ability and right to control his broadcast empire as well.
:58:12. > :58:15.Watson said he didn't think he was a fit and proper person. Next week
:58:15. > :58:19.it is going to be the police, of course.