:00:45. > :00:50.Good afternoon. And welcome to the programme. What is 130 billion
:00:50. > :00:56.euros between friends? After weeks of uncertainty, it looks like
:00:56. > :01:02.Greece is going to get its second massive bail-out. But will it
:01:02. > :01:06.rescue the economy from bankruptcy? David Cameron has been suggesting
:01:06. > :01:13.more devolved powers if Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom,
:01:13. > :01:21.but what does that really mean? We will be joined by the Scottish
:01:21. > :01:25.Secretary, Michael Moore. And we will be playing good cop, bad cop,
:01:25. > :01:34.as we discuss police commissioners. And our political panel will be
:01:34. > :01:39.here to analyse British politics. In London, following the row over
:01:39. > :01:49.the blocked deportation of Abu Qatada, just what should we do with
:01:49. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:57.All that in the next hour. But first, the news. Good afternoon.. A
:01:57. > :02:01.coach carrying British children has crashed in northern France, leaving
:02:01. > :02:07.one man dead and 24 others seriously injured. The coach was
:02:07. > :02:10.returning to Birmingham from an Italian ski resort, with 49
:02:10. > :02:13.holidaymakers on board, 29 of them schoolchildren from a school in
:02:13. > :02:19.Worcestershire. The accident happened in the early hours of the
:02:19. > :02:23.morning. A man who was wanted over the murder of a vicar near Bristol
:02:23. > :02:27.has been arrested on suspicion of murder. A nationwide hunt was
:02:27. > :02:33.launched yesterday after the body of the vicar was discovered in his
:02:33. > :02:37.home on Tuesday. Kent police say the man was held in Folkestone this
:02:37. > :02:42.morning. The Reverend was found with multiple stab wounds at his
:02:42. > :02:46.vicarage on Tuesday. He had only moved to the area last July from
:02:46. > :02:49.Essex, where he had previously been filmed by the BBC. Today, Kent
:02:50. > :02:54.police confirmed they had arrested the man they had been looking for
:02:54. > :02:58.in connection with the murder. The 47-year-old was captured by police
:02:58. > :03:03.in Folkestone at around 4am this morning. Avon & Somerset Police
:03:03. > :03:08.named him as a suspect on Saturday, warning the public not to approach
:03:08. > :03:13.him. Later that day, Sussex Police said she had been spotted in the
:03:13. > :03:17.Hastings area, about 35 miles from where he was later arrested. A
:03:17. > :03:23.high-visibility police presence has remained at the scene over the
:03:23. > :03:28.weekend, at the small town, 11 miles from Bristol. Prayers have
:03:28. > :03:33.been led there by other clergyman since Tuesday. St Mary's Church has
:03:33. > :03:38.been behind police tape. Now, a section of that is being lifted to
:03:38. > :03:43.allow parishioners into church for services today. It has been
:03:43. > :03:47.reported that Iran is preparing to expand its nuclear programme.
:03:47. > :03:51.Diplomats in Vienna say new machinery is ready to be installed
:03:51. > :03:55.at an underground plant, which would speed up the country's
:03:55. > :04:00.production of enriched uranium, which could be used in an atomic
:04:00. > :04:04.bomb, although Tehran insists it is only going to use it to generate
:04:04. > :04:09.electricity. Activists in Syria say the security forces have resumed
:04:09. > :04:15.their bombardment of Homs. They say 20 people were killed yesterday in
:04:15. > :04:19.various parts of the country. Relating -- latest fighting took
:04:19. > :04:28.place as the Chinese deputy Prime Minister held talks in Damascus.
:04:28. > :04:38.The British boxer Dereck Chisora has been arrested in Germany
:04:38. > :04:42.
:04:42. > :04:45.following a brawl with David Haye, after his fight with Klitschko. The
:04:45. > :04:55.fight in the press conference room resulted in one coach being left
:04:55. > :04:58.bleeding from a cut to his head. Let's top tax first of all this
:04:58. > :05:01.afternoon. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls has this morning been calling
:05:01. > :05:06.for temporary but significant tax cuts in the budget next month to
:05:06. > :05:11.boost economic growth. He says if the Chancellor will not reduce VAT,
:05:11. > :05:18.he should consider cutting income tax for ear. This is what he had to
:05:18. > :05:21.say. Families are under real pressure, hit hard by of a increase
:05:21. > :05:26.in VAT, that's why confidence is down, unemployment is rising,
:05:27. > :05:31.businesses are not investing. I don't think a corporation tax cut,
:05:31. > :05:37.or a tax cut for people on incomes of more than �150,000, will give
:05:37. > :05:41.the injection which we need. Joining us now from Tunbridge Wells,
:05:41. > :05:45.the De biggie chairman of the Conservative Party, Michael Fallon.
:05:45. > :05:50.Your Lib Dem partners want you to raise the tax threshold, now Ed
:05:50. > :05:57.Balls is saying you should do it - is this not an idea whose time has
:05:57. > :06:01.come? No, let's remember, Ed Balls was Gordon Brown's right-hand man
:06:01. > :06:05.when they racked up all of this debt. Doing what he wants would
:06:05. > :06:09.mean even higher debt, which would mean that in the end we would lose
:06:09. > :06:14.our AAA rating, and everybody would be paying more for their mortgages
:06:14. > :06:19.and loans. Not a good idea. But he says you could raise the tax
:06:19. > :06:25.threshold before you pay income tax to �10,000 - is the wrong to
:06:25. > :06:28.suggest that, too? That is the long-term aim, and we have made
:06:28. > :06:31.good progress, we have taken one million people out of tax
:06:31. > :06:36.altogether, and the Chancellor hopes to do more each successive
:06:36. > :06:41.budget. But every successive cut in tax has to be funded, and one thing
:06:41. > :06:46.we cannot do is to borrow even more. But over five years, you're going
:06:46. > :06:50.to borrow �150 billion more than you originally said you were - why
:06:50. > :06:54.don't you borrow more to cut taxes to give the chance of stimulating
:06:54. > :06:59.some growth? We cannot borrow even more, we have to stick to the plan.
:06:59. > :07:01.This was the week that buried any kind of Plan B. Everybody, the
:07:01. > :07:06.governor of the Bank of England, the Institute for Fiscal Studies,
:07:07. > :07:10.the rating agencies, the CBI, all made it clear that absolutely we
:07:10. > :07:17.have to stick to Plan A to deal with our debts, but also, to help
:07:17. > :07:21.grow the economy through these difficult times. Could you just
:07:21. > :07:25.remind our viewers, who is the traditional tax-cutting party in
:07:25. > :07:30.Britain? The Conservatives have always believed in lower taxes. But
:07:30. > :07:34.let me be clear, we have frozen council tax, we have raised
:07:34. > :07:38.personal allowances for everybody, as well as taking the low paid out
:07:38. > :07:42.of tax. We have stopped fuel duty increases. Where we can, of course
:07:42. > :07:47.we have got to keep taxes low. But in the end, we have to deal with
:07:47. > :07:53.our debts. And Ed Balls is the man who whacked those debts up in the
:07:53. > :07:57.first place, and now wants us to borrow even more. Tomorrow, all
:07:57. > :08:04.eyes will be on Greece, because European finance ministers are
:08:04. > :08:09.expected to finance a 130 billion euros bail-out for the country. It
:08:09. > :08:13.will come at a heavy price, with 150,000 public sector jobs to go in
:08:13. > :08:21.the country. All that, with an economy which is already in
:08:21. > :08:25.freefall. I spoke to a Greek minister, Constantine Papadopoulos,
:08:25. > :08:31.and suggested that the eurozone no longer trusted Greece to put its
:08:31. > :08:34.house in order. Yes, we need to do a lot more. Unless we start seeing
:08:35. > :08:40.growth coming back into the economy, this is the kind of advice we will
:08:40. > :08:45.be getting. You are in your fifth year of recession, the economy
:08:45. > :08:50.shrunk by 7% last year, one in five Greeks are out of work - Halle will
:08:50. > :08:53.more austerity make that better? have to analyse what kind of
:08:53. > :08:59.austerity we're talking about. We are talking about streamlining the
:08:59. > :09:04.public sector, because it has been growing all these years, it is way
:09:04. > :09:08.out of proportion, compared with other European economies. Not only
:09:08. > :09:15.is it large as a share of GDP, it is extremely ineffective. So, what
:09:15. > :09:19.is being done, under the auspices of austerity, is to streamline the
:09:19. > :09:27.government sector. Now, there are some other issues, for example, in
:09:27. > :09:32.the private sector, bringing down, making more competitive salary
:09:32. > :09:39.levels, so that we claw back some of the loss of competitiveness that
:09:39. > :09:45.we experienced in the last dozen years, and aim for wage levels
:09:45. > :09:49.which are closer to, for example, those in Spain. But in 2010, you
:09:49. > :09:53.promised to do all of that, but you did not do it - why should we
:09:53. > :10:00.believe you this time? That's a good question. The point is, we
:10:00. > :10:06.have no other choice. I think it has come to the crunch, and do not
:10:06. > :10:12.underestimate what we did under the first memorandum. A lot of things
:10:12. > :10:17.were done, but a lot more needs to be done, and there is so much to do,
:10:17. > :10:20.it would be unrealistic to expect things to happen in a matter of
:10:20. > :10:27.team the years. I think if it was not for the pressure from the
:10:27. > :10:31.financial markets, what we are aiming for would normally take
:10:31. > :10:36.something like in the range of five or 10 years, that's how rubbish the
:10:36. > :10:40.programme is. But we are forced to do it in a short space of time. --
:10:40. > :10:46.that's how ambitious the programme is. Behind the scenes, have you
:10:46. > :10:55.made any preparations for a default, or for an exit from the euro?
:10:55. > :10:59.because that would destroy the economy. You do not factor in
:10:59. > :11:04.auctions which will kill off any hope for redemption. Now, we have
:11:04. > :11:08.to work within a very strict plan, in the hope of returning back to
:11:08. > :11:14.growth, and becoming a fully- fledged member of the eurozone
:11:15. > :11:17.again. If you exit the eurozone... We learned from the British Foreign
:11:17. > :11:26.Minister this morning that Britain has made plans in case of a Greek
:11:26. > :11:34.default. Yes, I think that's very much in tune with Western mentality,
:11:34. > :11:39.to make plans for all possible options. I think that's perfectly
:11:39. > :11:43.normal. But that's because they do not know how committed we are to
:11:43. > :11:48.staying within the eurozone. So, of course, they make contingency plans,
:11:48. > :11:54.that's what they are supposed to do. What do you say to German calls
:11:55. > :12:01.that you should delay the April elections? That's an issue which is
:12:01. > :12:06.much, much bigger than me, so I would rather not comment on that,
:12:06. > :12:13.because it is a critical issue in which many, many party leaders are
:12:13. > :12:17.involved. I can see where this view comes from, I can totally
:12:17. > :12:22.understand, and the original plan was for the previous government to
:12:22. > :12:27.be in place for four years, not two years. So, this creates a new
:12:27. > :12:37.element of uncertainty, there is no doubt about it. What do you say to
:12:37. > :12:37.
:12:37. > :13:20.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds
:13:20. > :13:24.You'll see a totally different rankings, private and public.
:13:24. > :13:28.you for joining us from Athens. David Cameron and Alex Salmond this
:13:28. > :13:32.week resumed their tug-of-war over the future of Scotland. The Prime
:13:32. > :13:35.Minister visited Edinburgh for talks over the staging of a
:13:35. > :13:40.referendum but admitted afterwards that they had been little progress.
:13:40. > :13:44.What are the sticking points? Alex Salmond wants a referendum to
:13:44. > :13:48.include two questions, yes or no to independence, plus another one on
:13:48. > :13:52.whether more powers should be given to Scotland, so-called devo max.
:13:52. > :13:56.David Cameron says this will confuse voters and made a different
:13:56. > :14:01.suggestion. Is there more that we can do to improve the divorce
:14:01. > :14:05.settlement? Are there other powers that could be devolved? How can we
:14:05. > :14:09.make the UK work better? Mr Alex Salmond accused the Prime a soft
:14:09. > :14:12.try to trick Scottish voters. order for people to vote for or
:14:12. > :14:15.against independence, they have to know what the alternative is. You
:14:15. > :14:20.cannot have that vote with the Prime Minister saying, I have got
:14:20. > :14:24.something else up my sleeve. there are other sticking points.
:14:24. > :14:28.Alex Salmond wants to give 16-year- old the vote, and the timing of the
:14:28. > :14:34.referendum is also an issue. The First Minister wants to hold it in
:14:34. > :14:38.2014, Cameron wanted sooner rather than later. Scottish Secretary
:14:38. > :14:42.Michael Moore, who is in Emma -- in Edinburgh, his power Sunday
:14:42. > :14:45.interview. Let's be clear about where the red lines of the
:14:45. > :14:53.coalition are in simple language. Well they're only be one question
:14:53. > :14:57.on the ballot paper? -- Will there. We are consulting on all the issues
:14:57. > :15:00.of the referendum, but I believe, as the Prime Minister set out, that
:15:00. > :15:04.a single question is the way to get a decisive outcome that will allow
:15:04. > :15:11.us in Scotland to determine whether we continue within the UK or go our
:15:11. > :15:16.own separate ways. So is a single question on independence, is that
:15:16. > :15:19.as far as Westminster is concerned, non-negotiable? There are a number
:15:19. > :15:23.of areas of concern, but the reason for the single question is that the
:15:23. > :15:27.need to be clear about what the outcome is. I do not think you can
:15:27. > :15:30.muddle up a question about whether Scotland stays within the UK, the
:15:30. > :15:33.most successful combination of nations in history, or goes on its
:15:33. > :15:39.way with a decision about more powers for Scotland within the UK.
:15:39. > :15:41.There is a lively debate there, one we are engaged in, but we need to
:15:41. > :15:46.decide the central issue. You mentioned in your introduction the
:15:46. > :15:49.issue of timing. We set out to the First Minister this week in our
:15:49. > :15:53.meetings and also what the Prime Minister that we could have this
:15:53. > :15:57.next year, in 2013, if we put our minds to that. It is hard for us to
:15:57. > :16:01.see why on earth you would want to delay a decision as fundamental as
:16:01. > :16:07.this for another three years. Let's get on with it sooner rather than
:16:07. > :16:12.later. Can I interrupt for a minute? I will come on to timing,
:16:12. > :16:16.but I know the case as put by you for a single question, I know that
:16:16. > :16:22.is the coalition line. What I want to find out from New, in clear
:16:22. > :16:27.English, is this non-negotiable? Will you insist on a single
:16:27. > :16:31.independence question in the referendum? With the appropriate
:16:31. > :16:37.respect, Andrew, and not gone to plan ahead of the consultation,
:16:37. > :16:41.which is asking people for their views on this. -- not going to run
:16:41. > :16:44.ahead. We have set out a clear preference. The Prime Minister
:16:44. > :16:48.cannot be more clear when he was in Edinburgh on Thursday, and we
:16:48. > :16:51.believe a single question is fundamental to having a decisive
:16:52. > :16:56.outcome. We wait to see if other people have differences of opinion
:16:56. > :17:01.are that, but even the SNP accepts that is the fundamental issue at
:17:01. > :17:05.stake, and so we should proceed on that basis. Is it also the case
:17:05. > :17:09.that whether the franchise goes to 16 and 17 year-olds, and on the
:17:09. > :17:13.timing, but you are prepared to negotiate on both of these as well?
:17:13. > :17:16.We are interested to see, on the timing, what the case is from the
:17:16. > :17:20.First Minister and his colleagues for the delay which, as I say,
:17:20. > :17:24.would require us to wait to make this huge decision of the best part
:17:24. > :17:29.of three years, when we can do it now, by getting on with some of the
:17:29. > :17:32.technical issues, to sort out the timing and the legal issues and do
:17:32. > :17:36.it next year. I think it could be done, and I want to hear why they
:17:36. > :17:41.think it cannot be done in that time frame. On the franchise, who
:17:41. > :17:46.can vote, of course we want to see this done here in Scotland. The
:17:46. > :17:49.fairest basis is to use the franchise that the elected the
:17:49. > :17:53.parliament that gave the First Minister is mandates to have this
:17:53. > :17:56.referendum. Will you insist on that? We want to hear what people
:17:56. > :18:00.across Scotland say, that is what consultation is about, but we have
:18:00. > :18:03.not yet had a convincing argument that says you should change the
:18:03. > :18:06.basis of the franchise on this one- off referendum, otherwise you could
:18:06. > :18:11.start opening the whole debate up to lots of other people, saying
:18:11. > :18:16.they should be part of it. Let's have a simple, clear franchise, the
:18:16. > :18:20.same as the Scottish parliament one. The Prime Minister said that once
:18:20. > :18:23.the referendum is over, and assuming Scotland votes to stay
:18:23. > :18:27.part of the UK, he will look again at the devolution settlement, but
:18:27. > :18:31.the possibility of more powers being sent to Edinburgh. When the
:18:31. > :18:34.government give details of what these further powers would be in
:18:34. > :18:39.the run-up to the referendum? think it is important that that
:18:39. > :18:44.debate is going on. It has already started. As a Liberal Democrat, my
:18:44. > :18:47.party in Scotland is already looking at what we call home rule
:18:47. > :18:51.might look like in the 21st century, whether it is about more tax powers,
:18:51. > :18:54.the welfare system, fundamental issues. But the Liberal Democrats
:18:54. > :18:58.are not the only party in this debate. The Conservatives, the
:18:58. > :19:01.Labour Party, people in the churches, the business community,
:19:01. > :19:06.the voluntary sector, everybody will want to be part of that debate.
:19:06. > :19:11.In the past, we have had the debate, said that the ideas, come together
:19:11. > :19:15.in a consensus, and it is now the basis on which I am piloting huge
:19:15. > :19:19.new financial powers through the Scottish parliament. Cross-party
:19:19. > :19:23.consensus after a very vigorous debate. We will have the debate,
:19:23. > :19:26.but once we have determined whether we are staying in the UK or not...
:19:26. > :19:31.But before we votes on the referendum, will we know what
:19:31. > :19:34.further devolution means? No, the individual parties and the parts of
:19:34. > :19:37.Scotland want to be part of the debate, and I anticipate it is most
:19:37. > :19:40.people, will need to set out their views on this, will need to come
:19:40. > :19:45.together. There is no lack of ambition amongst the Liberal
:19:45. > :19:48.Democrat to get on with that debate, but let me put one other point to
:19:48. > :19:51.you. It is not just about as setting out what the alternative
:19:51. > :19:55.will be. The important thing is that they can be further devolution,
:19:55. > :20:00.and that is a great step for us to be contemplating. The SNP has
:20:00. > :20:03.failed so parties What an independent Scotland would look
:20:03. > :20:07.like and the different issues around currency and defence as well.
:20:07. > :20:10.Very briefly, Alex Salmond will lead the campaign for Scottish
:20:10. > :20:13.independence. Who will lead the fight for the union? There will be
:20:14. > :20:19.a broad range of people on both sides of the argument, I am sure.
:20:19. > :20:22.Who will lead it? That will emerge over time, but I think he will see
:20:22. > :20:26.on the side of the argument that once Scotland to stay in the UK a
:20:26. > :20:30.much broader based team of people from different political parties,
:20:30. > :20:35.but this is not for the politicians alone. It will be for people across
:20:36. > :20:39.the country in Scotland. Last week, some of you may have
:20:40. > :20:43.seen the Labour leader say this on the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire.
:20:43. > :20:49.He would be a great Police Commissioner. You support John
:20:49. > :20:52.Prescott? As always in these things, we will have a vote in the Labour
:20:52. > :20:58.Party as to who the best candidates are four Police Commissioner. Look,
:20:58. > :21:02.John Prescott is a very unstoppable force, I'm sure he would be a great
:21:02. > :21:05.Police Commissioner. He will not thump you now. Definitely not!
:21:05. > :21:09.man in question thinks he would not be bad at the job either. Does he
:21:09. > :21:13.have the right credentials? In a moment, he will go head-to-head
:21:13. > :21:23.with Ian Black, who used to be in charge of the Metropolitan Police,
:21:23. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:32.The system for watching the police is being worked up. Right now,
:21:32. > :21:36.forces in England and Wales are overseen by police authorities made
:21:36. > :21:41.up of councillors and appointees, but this year they are all being
:21:41. > :21:45.scrapped. Instead, on 15th November, voters will be electing a police
:21:45. > :21:48.and crime Commissioner for their local area. There will be 41 in
:21:48. > :21:58.total, they will be in charge of setting local budgets and
:21:58. > :22:01.
:22:01. > :22:06.priorities. They will also have the The policing minister, Nick Herbert,
:22:06. > :22:12.is steering through his trademark Tory policy. The big idea is to
:22:12. > :22:17.give people a real say in policing priorities for the first time. In
:22:17. > :22:20.the past, these decisions have been taken behind closed doors, behind
:22:20. > :22:24.invisible committees, but somebody has still hold the police to
:22:24. > :22:28.account. It is a monopoly public service. You cannot choose your
:22:29. > :22:33.police force. Virtually every aspect of that worries Sir Hugh
:22:33. > :22:39.Orde. One of Britain's top officers, he is worried about one thing most
:22:39. > :22:43.of all. It will change the British policing model. We have impartial
:22:43. > :22:47.policing in this country. Chief officers make decisions on how best
:22:47. > :22:50.to keep citizens safe across a huge range of activities that we have to
:22:50. > :22:54.deal with, and then we are held to account for what we do, and that
:22:54. > :22:57.must not change. That is why we have the strategic policing
:22:57. > :23:02.requirements built into the Bill to make sure the position of the tea
:23:02. > :23:05.is distinguished from the person that hold he or she to account.
:23:05. > :23:09.the Bill paving the way for all of this went through Parliament, it
:23:09. > :23:13.was opposed by Labour, who argued it is a waste of money when the
:23:13. > :23:18.police are facing cut to their budget of 20% over the next four
:23:18. > :23:25.years. But that does not stop some big-hitters coming forward as
:23:25. > :23:29.potential candidates, like former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott,
:23:29. > :23:34.along with Colonel Tim Collins, a commander during the Iraq War. And
:23:34. > :23:39.the famous veteran of the Falklands, Simon Weston. The mayor of London,
:23:39. > :23:43.Boris Johnson, is already doing the job at the Metropolitan Police
:23:43. > :23:46.Authority was scrapped in January. Think back to the debates about the
:23:46. > :23:50.response to the riots across England last summer, and you will
:23:50. > :23:59.be reminded that policing is already deeply political. It is
:23:59. > :24:03.And John Prescott and Ian Blair are with me now. You agree with Ed
:24:03. > :24:06.Miliband that John Prescott would make a great Police Commissioner?
:24:06. > :24:12.think he would do a great job, but I do not think they should be such
:24:12. > :24:15.a job. Other than that, he would be great. You agree? Yeah! Would you
:24:15. > :24:20.do a better job of running Humberside that he did of running
:24:20. > :24:24.the match? The exactly the same. I worked with him at the time, very
:24:24. > :24:28.impressive guy. Is this a good idea? Be is a completely terrible
:24:28. > :24:31.idea, because it has not been thought through. This is the
:24:31. > :24:35.introduction of a foreign species into an indigenous environment. Let
:24:36. > :24:39.me give you a tiny example. If you go to Martha's Vineyard in United
:24:40. > :24:46.States, it is half the size of the Isle of Wight, it has six police
:24:46. > :24:50.forces, and the biggest one has got 26 people, police officers, and the
:24:50. > :24:55.population love it. But that model is being dropped on two places as
:24:55. > :25:01.big as Devon and Cornwall, as big as Northumbria, the West Midlands.
:25:01. > :25:05.I just do not understand how one person can represent the enormous
:25:05. > :25:09.variety of political views that stretch across some of these big
:25:09. > :25:13.police forces. I understand what he says about the Midlands, and the
:25:13. > :25:17.area and tried to do is Humberside, a population of about one million,
:25:17. > :25:23.quite different from the Midlands. But really the functions of the job
:25:23. > :25:26.are quite clearly laid out. I think that we voted against them because
:25:26. > :25:29.basically 125 million the election, you could get 4,000 police on the
:25:29. > :25:35.front line, and that is what we feel about it. But the government
:25:35. > :25:39.has decided to go for this, and the voice of the people is distinct
:25:39. > :25:42.from the operational duties of the chief of police. They have got to
:25:42. > :25:47.get on with the job, but the first job of the Commission is to produce
:25:47. > :25:52.a crime plant, and the security and crime plan that is available. That
:25:52. > :25:55.has to be agreed between the two parties. We used to do that to a
:25:55. > :25:58.certain extent with the police authority, so it is not unique, but
:25:58. > :26:03.the one person with a statutory responsibility, that is what the
:26:03. > :26:06.government has done, to find out the voice of the people, to
:26:06. > :26:10.actually say to the Chief Constable. So what is wrong with elected
:26:10. > :26:13.representatives being involved in the police? The police follow the
:26:13. > :26:20.public's priorities rather than their own. There is nothing wrong
:26:20. > :26:26.with it. It has been going on for the last 150 years. The differences,
:26:26. > :26:32.one person, and that person having untrammelled power over the chief
:26:32. > :26:38.constable. It is not untrammelled. There is a body being set up that
:26:38. > :26:41.can actually veto what the Commissioner says. They can only...
:26:41. > :26:45.Wants the commission has said he has no confidence in the Chief
:26:45. > :26:50.Constable, that is over. Let me tell you this, there were eight
:26:50. > :26:53.pages in the Greater London Act about how the Commissioner of the
:26:53. > :26:58.Metropolitan Police could be suspended, investigated etcetera.
:26:58. > :27:04.Boris did not need any of those eight pages. He just says, I have
:27:04. > :27:08.not confidence, and that is the end. one, how can you work with someone
:27:08. > :27:12.who does not have confidence in you? I have worked with a few
:27:12. > :27:15.people have not had confidence in me! We are talking about the
:27:15. > :27:20.people's voice, somebody has to reflect that view. I agree it is
:27:20. > :27:23.difficult in the West Midlands, when it is so big, but Humberside...
:27:23. > :27:28.Humberside is fine, Bedfordshire would be fine. But the point about
:27:28. > :27:34.its... So are right in certain parts of the country? I think the
:27:34. > :27:37.whole idea is wrong, I did say it at the beginning, in a small,
:27:37. > :27:41.confined area, this becomes more possible. I still have the
:27:41. > :27:45.objection about the untrammelled hiring and firing, but when you
:27:45. > :27:51.have got an area which is well spread out, let's Tate Thames
:27:51. > :27:54.Valley, for instance. It has Slough at one end, and at the other end
:27:54. > :27:58.God's own country around chipping Norton. How does one person
:27:58. > :28:02.represent that? Once they are elected as a conservative, say,
:28:02. > :28:05.they are not going to be interested in Slough. Do not underestimate
:28:05. > :28:14.what they have said about the people, who can say, with two-
:28:15. > :28:17.thirds of the authority among that his considerable -- two-thirds of
:28:17. > :28:20.the authorities set up to oversee the commission of. This has come
:28:20. > :28:24.about because they think professional coppers follow your
:28:24. > :28:27.own priorities and not the priorities of the people. Well, if
:28:27. > :28:30.they actually read the priorities of the Metropolitan Police, they
:28:30. > :28:33.were established by the police authority in open debate with
:28:33. > :28:37.television cameras rolling, with members of the public in the
:28:37. > :28:41.audience. How many millions are in London? That is distinctly
:28:41. > :28:46.different. I am still with you that it is a bad idea, we voted against
:28:46. > :28:50.it, but in this case, let's take Humberside. The police chief has to
:28:50. > :28:54.come to an agreement about the plan, the money is being given to the
:28:54. > :28:57.commissioner, he has to agree with the police chief. It is about the
:28:58. > :29:01.personalities, to a certain extent, no doubt, but the person with the
:29:01. > :29:04.voice of the people is going to have more influence than the police
:29:05. > :29:09.authority in getting that balance between crime and security in the
:29:09. > :29:13.plan for the next five years. is it that we deal with the wicked
:29:13. > :29:17.issues that he Ward was talking about beyond the local? Who is
:29:17. > :29:21.going to be interested in your election about counter-terrorism,
:29:21. > :29:26.about organised crime? They have not got a lot of terrorists in Hull.
:29:26. > :29:29.We have got terrorists everywhere, I assure you! I agree, we are
:29:29. > :29:33.working towards a national body. That is what is on the horizon here,
:29:33. > :29:39.but we already have a regional bodies dealing with crime, that is
:29:39. > :29:42.bigger than Humberside. Yes, that will come into it, and you do have
:29:43. > :29:46.to have a national policy for that. They are passing it down locally
:29:46. > :29:51.and they are going to stand back and say, not us, it is those people
:29:51. > :29:56.in your area! We have to leave it there. Also contesting the Labour
:29:56. > :29:57.nomination in Humberside are Colin Inglis, former leader of all City
:29:57. > :30:03.Council, ad Keith Hunter, former chief superintendent with
:30:03. > :30:07.Humberside police. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in
:30:07. > :30:17.20 minutes, I will be looking at the week ahead with our political
:30:17. > :30:24.
:30:24. > :30:27.panel. Until then, the Sunday Hello, welcome to the London part
:30:27. > :30:31.of the show. Here in the capital this week:
:30:31. > :30:36.What exactly is being done about people who come from abroad and
:30:36. > :30:41.commit crime on London's streets? And here with us for the next 20
:30:41. > :30:48.minutes we have two MPs elected to the last general election, Stella
:30:48. > :30:51.Creasy, who also serves as shadow Home Office Minister, and Nick
:30:51. > :30:56.Debrois. Let me start by asking you both how did you get here today?
:30:56. > :30:59.the tube, of course. No buses? on the bus, overground and tube.
:30:59. > :31:04.From Monday the exciting news for Londoners is that it's all change
:31:04. > :31:07.on the buses. We are going to get the routeMasters back. I wonder how
:31:07. > :31:10.you feel about that. Anyone who watched a bus go past because it's
:31:11. > :31:14.too full would rather the money have been spent on more buses than
:31:14. > :31:18.this kind of very expensive photo shoot propaganda that Boris has got.
:31:18. > :31:23.It's a shame. I mean, you know, nice design but actually we have
:31:23. > :31:26.real problems with overcrowding on buses. I am sure you are getting
:31:27. > :31:31.complaints as well. It could have been spent better, couldn't it?
:31:31. > :31:34.investment on the first few for innovative and green and effective
:31:34. > :31:38.transport bus is welcome and the costs will come down to about that
:31:38. > :31:42.for a bus but remember we would never have been in this position
:31:42. > :31:46.had Ken stuck to his pledge not to get rid of them in the first place.
:31:46. > :31:51.Boris has picked it up. He's pledged to get rid of the bendy bus
:31:51. > :31:54.which was very unpopular. Don't start on the bendy bus, it is only
:31:54. > :31:59.a 20-minute programme! In January, they were told they would have to
:31:59. > :32:02.go and next Wednesday the Occupy London campaign makes a last-ditch
:32:02. > :32:05.attempt to reverse that decision at the court of appeal. It's expected
:32:06. > :32:10.the protesters will be given their final marching orders. So, the
:32:10. > :32:13.question is after a five-month occupation in front of St Paul's
:32:13. > :32:17.Cathedral and enormous global publicity, what do the protesters
:32:17. > :32:25.think they've achieved? We have achieved so much, changed the media
:32:25. > :32:28.discourse, even politicians are talking about crony capitalism and
:32:28. > :32:33.democratic form of capitalism. There is still a lot to highlight.
:32:33. > :32:36.The financial crisis still does need to be rammed home and the
:32:36. > :32:41.ramifications of the what the financial crisis has done here.
:32:41. > :32:45.have satisfied we have put across what we needed to. Now we are
:32:45. > :32:49.asking for the justice system to live up to its name and not just
:32:49. > :32:53.necessarily appay tension to the laws -- pay attention to the laws
:32:53. > :32:56.because laws have been written by what you call the 1%. It's a
:32:56. > :33:00.miracle, we had no idea it would be so successful. We have interviewed
:33:01. > :33:05.on the media worldwide. Every country of the world, Al-Jazerra,
:33:05. > :33:10.TV Iran, Syria. We go on about these Middle Eastern countries,
:33:10. > :33:14.ours is more sutly corrupt than they are. Well, we are joined now
:33:14. > :33:17.by Tammy from Occupy London. In fact, you are the single named
:33:17. > :33:20.defendant on the eviction proceedings. That doesn't mean that
:33:20. > :33:25.you are tkpwog pay all court costs t just means they've identified you
:33:25. > :33:30.as the one point of contact in this. What do you think has been the
:33:30. > :33:36.success of your campaign of occupation? I mean, we've actually
:33:36. > :33:40.started a dialogue about the current financial system, the
:33:40. > :33:44.economic crisis, the global economic crisis as well as things
:33:44. > :33:48.we are talking about in the UK. We have got a dialogue going. If you
:33:48. > :33:52.look at the media right now, since we have been occupying there's so
:33:52. > :33:55.many more conversations happening. There were conversations about it
:33:55. > :33:59.before, but there's so much more of it happening now, which is a good
:33:59. > :34:03.start. Many of those conversations have started from a position of
:34:03. > :34:08.hostility that you have caused a great deal of inconvenience, that
:34:08. > :34:13.it is - it's caused perhaps even intimidation to worshipers who
:34:13. > :34:16.would have gone to St Paul's to pray. I wonder now you look back
:34:16. > :34:20.would you have done anything differently? Me personally, I can't
:34:20. > :34:24.speak on behalf of the whole Occupy on that. Personally Wye have done
:34:24. > :34:29.exactly the same again. I would continue to do it it over and over
:34:29. > :34:32.again until we have some beginnings of change. That's interesting. Does
:34:32. > :34:36.that mean that over and over again feeling that you have, does that
:34:36. > :34:45.mean no matter what the courts say on Wednesday, you are there to
:34:45. > :34:48.stay? You know, I mean, the judge may well decide to make an eviction
:34:48. > :34:52.order and that particular camp is full of lots of individuals as much
:34:53. > :34:59.as we are a group of people and people make their own decision.
:34:59. > :35:06.There is some feeling of people may wish to peacefully resist, not
:35:06. > :35:10.fight are be violent. We certainly don't want a - people may
:35:10. > :35:13.peacefully resist. You think there will be resistance? How many people
:35:13. > :35:17.are actually there, there are reports there aren't many people
:35:17. > :35:22.there at all? Lots of empty tents there. Not everybody can stay there
:35:22. > :35:27.all day and all night every day. So it's on a rolling thing. Some
:35:27. > :35:33.people stay. - I stay firmly// for the four months. Some people unable
:35:33. > :35:36.to do that so they will support it at the weekend. People go to work
:35:36. > :35:40.and come back in the evening. The tents are never going to be
:35:40. > :35:44.completely full and neither are any houses on any street in any part of
:35:44. > :35:50.the UK. Nobody's home is permanently occupied 24 hours a day.
:35:50. > :35:55.People do things. Let's talk to our guests. Certainly we are talking
:35:55. > :35:58.about it now, it has occupied many of the headlines since they moved
:35:58. > :36:01.in. It is actually mission accomplished then? I think that's
:36:01. > :36:06.the point actually T has been in the headlines T has been spoken
:36:06. > :36:10.about. It's been raised in fairness across the conscience of a lot of
:36:10. > :36:14.different... Because of people like Tammy? They put it on the agenda.
:36:14. > :36:18.But they should have moved on and they should move on and move on
:36:18. > :36:22.peacefully. I don't like and would never really approve of such an
:36:22. > :36:25.iconic area which has, apart from the fact it's a Church, it's a
:36:25. > :36:28.practising Church with local communities and businesses, you
:36:28. > :36:33.have made your point. Move on. You have made your point pretty
:36:33. > :36:37.profoundly. Had they decided to have a campaign in a site somewhere
:36:37. > :36:41.far away from the City or the cameras, nobody would have noticed.
:36:41. > :36:45.You can have your ifs and buts and speculate on different routes but
:36:45. > :36:49.the fact is you are already in danger of actually losing the
:36:49. > :36:55.momentum and the argument that you started with, by staying there any
:36:55. > :36:57.longer. Stella Creasy? There's lots of challenges, I agree no doubt you
:36:58. > :37:00.have raised the debate and there are a lot of people who haven't
:37:00. > :37:03.been down to the camp but would share concerns you are raising
:37:03. > :37:08.about the financial system, about our economy, inequality in our
:37:08. > :37:11.society. I guess my concern, and particularly why did I go into
:37:11. > :37:15.politics, was that we need to find answers as well as raise challenges
:37:15. > :37:18.and the issue for Occupy London, indeed a lot of the movements, it's
:37:18. > :37:23.not entirely clear to a lot of us what the next step is and I would
:37:23. > :37:29.just say that I think the most pourle and construck -- powerful
:37:29. > :37:35.and constructive thing to do is to engage in debate. If the judgment
:37:35. > :37:39.goes against do you you stay in those tents? I will stay and resist
:37:39. > :37:43.personally, I don't intend to be involved in a fight. I don't intend
:37:43. > :37:47.myself to be objects strucking bailiffs, I do intend to exercise
:37:47. > :37:50.my democratic right peacefully. will much that -- watch that with
:37:50. > :37:54.great interest. There's been a lot of discussion this week about
:37:54. > :37:58.Europe's role in the deportation of Abu Qatada, held in a British jail
:37:58. > :38:01.for six years without being convicted of a crime. But what
:38:01. > :38:05.about those criminals who have been convicted of an offence and are
:38:05. > :38:10.sitting in British prisons? The way in which they're dealt with could
:38:10. > :38:14.well set the Prime Minister on a collision course with his own party
:38:14. > :38:19.as Andrew Cryen has been finding out.
:38:19. > :38:24.Despite nearly half of London's workforce being born abroad there
:38:24. > :38:28.is one area where British citizens still seem to dominate. Crime.
:38:28. > :38:32.According to police data obtained by Sunday Politics in three
:38:32. > :38:37.quarters of offences where the Met Police took action the accused was
:38:37. > :38:40.British. Pushing up the charts in second, third and fourth place are
:38:40. > :38:46.Poland, Romania and Lithuania, suggesting that the wave of eastern
:38:46. > :38:49.European migration to the capital, beneficial in many ways, could have
:38:49. > :38:53.had negative impacts on public safety.
:38:53. > :38:58.Stories like Chris's may help explain the figures. These days he
:38:58. > :39:00.works for the charity which helps European Unions in London. For six
:39:00. > :39:07.years he lived on the streets, committing anti-social behaviour,
:39:07. > :39:13.and low level offences like fare dodging. TRANSLATION:
:39:13. > :39:17.If you sleep on streets for a long time, you sleep rough, drink
:39:17. > :39:22.alcohol, you become oblivious to police, you think if they lock you
:39:22. > :39:24.up doesn't matter, at least I can have a chance to rest. If the
:39:24. > :39:27.penalty had been deportation it might have been different.
:39:28. > :39:31.Deporting back to Poland would definitely make me more careful
:39:31. > :39:34.about doing silly things. I know people who have been to Polish
:39:34. > :39:38.prisons and they are really bad. Compared to them English prison is
:39:38. > :39:43.like a Spa. If I knew I would definitely be deported to Poland, I
:39:43. > :39:48.would think twice about my behaviour. And as of December last
:39:48. > :39:52.year, sending European criminals back to their country of origin
:39:52. > :39:55.became easier. A new EU directive came into force meaning the UK
:39:55. > :40:00.could deport prisoners without their consent. Much tougher rules
:40:00. > :40:04.than existed before. But this power may be short-lived. In 2014 it's
:40:04. > :40:09.one of a package of 130 criminal justice laws which the Government
:40:09. > :40:12.has to decide whether it wants to hand over to the European Court of
:40:12. > :40:16.justice. The point is not to look at these individual items in
:40:16. > :40:19.isolation. The point is that they are part of a bigger plan, a bigger
:40:19. > :40:22.project to create an EU-wide criminal justice system and the
:40:22. > :40:25.issue is do we want to be part of that and want to be part of that if
:40:25. > :40:29.it's governored by or the last port of call is a European judge in
:40:29. > :40:34.Luxembourg rather than a judge in the UK?
:40:34. > :40:39.And come 2014 the Government's choice is either to transfer all
:40:39. > :40:43.130, or the laws will stop applying to the UK at all. Including the new
:40:43. > :40:46.powers over deportation. It's difficult issue for the coalition
:40:46. > :40:51.because the Liberal Democrats have often historically been in favour
:40:51. > :40:55.of a lot of these measures and EU- wide policing measures and criminal
:40:55. > :40:58.justice measures, where the Conservatives haven't. Already over
:40:58. > :41:02.100 Conservative MPs are on the record urging the Government to
:41:02. > :41:04.resist the transfer of powers. Exactly what would happen to the
:41:04. > :41:08.Government's ability to remove foreign crim tphapls and what
:41:08. > :41:17.effect this might have on the safety of the capital's streets is
:41:17. > :41:20.open to debate. We are joined now by Brian Paddick.
:41:20. > :41:24.Really interesting things there in that report. First of all, there is
:41:24. > :41:28.this perception is there not, I am looking at a paper from the last
:41:28. > :41:32.few days about a murder by a Polish burglar of an elderly couple. The
:41:32. > :41:40.perception certainly is that there is a crimewave sweeping this
:41:40. > :41:43.country because of the immigration from European Europe. That doesn't
:41:43. > :41:48.-- Eastern Europe. That doesn't seem borne out by the statistics.
:41:48. > :41:54.We have have always had people from other countries here committing
:41:54. > :41:57.crime, gangs, for example, carrying out pick-pocketing in the West End
:41:57. > :42:01.is a well known phenomenon. We have the Tories saying they don't want
:42:01. > :42:07.to be part of these collaboration with the European police forces,
:42:07. > :42:09.for example, which is going to help combat this sort of crime. Even
:42:09. > :42:12.though the European Union will still mean that they are allowed to
:42:12. > :42:15.come to this country. Before we get into the European Union issue, I
:42:15. > :42:21.know Nick will have a lot to say about that because he signed an
:42:21. > :42:26.important letter on it, before we get to that, is the reason that
:42:26. > :42:30.there are a - a 15% I suppose arrest ratio, is that down to the
:42:30. > :42:33.fact that actually police find it hard tore crack that kind of crime?
:42:33. > :42:36.They're plugged into the British crime scene, if you like, but when
:42:36. > :42:40.you have a foreign imported crime scene it's much harder to do their
:42:40. > :42:44.job so it isn't really a reflective statistic? I don't think so at all.
:42:44. > :42:49.We just heard from that report that the sort of crimes people from
:42:49. > :42:53.Eastern Europe are involved in are minor crime, things fare dodging,
:42:53. > :42:57.anti-social behaviour on the street. Clearly if there are more organised
:42:57. > :43:00.gangs from Eastern Europe then collaboration between the UK force
:43:00. > :43:05.and European forces is going to be very important, but most of the
:43:05. > :43:09.crime is very minor and low level. Does that give a correct impression
:43:09. > :43:12.of what kind of problems European immigration is causing? There's two
:43:12. > :43:14.things to look at. First of all, look at the number of foreign
:43:14. > :43:18.prisoners currently in our jails which is extremely high and many
:43:18. > :43:21.come from Europe, many come from outside Europe and that's to be
:43:21. > :43:27.dealt with. That's a travesty going on there. Turning to the point
:43:27. > :43:32.that's just been raised here, there is absolutely no need to transfer
:43:32. > :43:36.democratic powers over to Europe as has been required in 2014 or asked.
:43:36. > :43:39.You can still collaborate, you can still actually co-operate, as we
:43:39. > :43:46.proved in working with Norway on a recent issue, as we have already
:43:46. > :43:49.had in practice on other issues. So there's no need to subjectgate the
:43:49. > :43:56.democratic role to collaborate. this being turned by yourself and
:43:56. > :43:59.the other significant knitories s this being turned into a more of a
:43:59. > :44:03.Europe issue than crime and punishment? Let me give you a very
:44:03. > :44:08.good example. Already just before Christmas a lot of European
:44:08. > :44:11.countries signed up in principle to having the automatic transfer of
:44:11. > :44:16.offenders to go and serve their sentences in other countries.
:44:16. > :44:19.Actually only six have implemented, of which we are one, so we could
:44:19. > :44:22.have had an tkpwhreplt in place. However, the remaining countries
:44:22. > :44:26.still haven't got it on their books. This isn't about Europe. It's
:44:26. > :44:32.actually a case of about how to reduce the foreign prisoners and
:44:32. > :44:35.just co-operate with our neighbours. Well, I justice think Nick and his
:44:35. > :44:39.colleagues have to decide whether it's more important to grandstand
:44:39. > :44:42.on Europe or get to grip with issues. We have seen 700 fewer
:44:42. > :44:45.national criminals being deported than under the previous
:44:45. > :44:49.administration. Many of us have concerns that the UKBA doesn't have
:44:49. > :44:52.it together to deal with this problem. Would you be happy for
:44:52. > :44:55.these 130 laws to be handed over to the European courts of justice,
:44:55. > :44:59.rather than our own courts? We are talk being a power that allows to
:44:59. > :45:02.us take somebody who has committed a crime in the UK and deport them.
:45:02. > :45:07.The issue for Nick and his colleagues are they going to help
:45:07. > :45:12.make that process... It's more than that. When we had the bombings in
:45:12. > :45:16.2005 we were able to very quickly get one of the suspects for the
:45:16. > :45:19.21st July deported under the European arrest warrant. That would
:45:19. > :45:24.not exist if we do what the Tories are suggesting that we do. These
:45:24. > :45:29.are very important laws that are in place. It makes London safer to
:45:29. > :45:32.have these laws in place. Now, we are talking about only the European
:45:32. > :45:36.Court being the final arbiter of these decisions. There's the whole
:45:36. > :45:44.British court system that has to go through before you goat that.
:45:45. > :45:49.Are the Tories on a collision course with the police? I think
:45:49. > :45:53.they are, it will make their job more difficult, it will make you
:45:53. > :45:59.appear in collaboration more difficult. Let's put that to our
:45:59. > :46:03.Tory MP. Making a European issue out of this, the reality is that if
:46:03. > :46:06.you are gone to talk about European arrest warrant, it sounds to me, in
:46:06. > :46:13.the interests of expediency, which is the reasons why the Labour
:46:13. > :46:17.government brought it into place, we are now having British subjects
:46:17. > :46:21.extradited to other countries and being put through some terrible
:46:21. > :46:26.injustices as a result of the European arrest warrant. Now, it
:46:26. > :46:29.may have worked in that instance, but as the Scott Baker report has
:46:29. > :46:33.highlighted, they have been a lot of instances where it has failed
:46:33. > :46:38.British citizens. Do you think people watching us will say, I
:46:38. > :46:42.don't care, I just want them out of our country? Absolutely, over the
:46:42. > :46:46.last 10 or 11 years, we have got a state where we have got 11,000
:46:46. > :46:51.foreign prisoners in our jails. We tried to get an agreement with
:46:51. > :46:55.Europe to get rid of 25% of them, it failed. A final word on this.
:46:55. > :46:59.You already struggling to get the paperwork together to get people
:46:59. > :47:03.out of this country. That is the problem that the UKBA has now. He
:47:03. > :47:07.will make it harder for that to happen, so we will see more foreign
:47:07. > :47:12.prisoners let loose. How do you explain the fact that we had 11,000
:47:12. > :47:15.who was still in our prisons? have deported 700 fewer in the last
:47:15. > :47:18.year, and the report from inspectors says it because you have
:47:18. > :47:22.not got the paperwork together. Thank you very much for being with
:47:22. > :47:32.us. What else has been happening in the City this week? Gerry Thomas
:47:32. > :47:38.
:47:38. > :47:42.A councillor seeking a legal review over the HS2 rail link that would
:47:42. > :47:47.cause over 200 homes to be demolished, mostly social housing
:47:47. > :47:50.in Camden. Campaigners in Lewisham occupied 15 houses about to be sold
:47:50. > :47:54.by the council in what the squatters claim was a knock-down
:47:54. > :47:59.sale which would exacerbate the area's housing crisis. Later in the
:47:59. > :48:02.week, Lewisham council withdrew five homes from the sale. The
:48:02. > :48:06.extremist Muslim cleric Abu Qatada was freed from jail to live in
:48:06. > :48:10.London, sparking a furious row that is a threat to national security.
:48:10. > :48:12.The European Court of Human Rights blocked his deportation to Jordan
:48:12. > :48:18.on the grounds that evidence obtained by torture might be used
:48:18. > :48:22.against him. Boris Johnson will cut council tax every year if he is re-
:48:22. > :48:28.elected. According to his chief-of- staff, Sir Edward Lister, the mayor
:48:28. > :48:35.aims to reduce the share of the tax, which runs TfL, the vile Poti, the
:48:35. > :48:39.Metropolitan Police and the Olympics. -- the fire authority.
:48:39. > :48:43.Well, why don't we pick up on that last story? There has been quite a
:48:43. > :48:48.hullabaloo about this cut in council tax, it is only a few quid
:48:48. > :48:52.per year, something like just over �3, is it worth making such a noise
:48:52. > :48:56.about that? Well, I notice that our opponents have been making a noise
:48:56. > :49:01.to that effect, saying you can barely buy a copy for it. That is
:49:01. > :49:05.very disparaging. The context to look at this in is an aim to make
:49:05. > :49:08.national cuts in City Hall and reduce it by 10% over the next term
:49:08. > :49:14.of office. It should be welcomed. And it should be put against the
:49:14. > :49:18.background that the government have also allowed councils to freeze tax
:49:18. > :49:21.for two years as well. These things add up, they are important. A much
:49:22. > :49:27.bigger figure, and the Ken Livingstone, the council tax
:49:28. > :49:31.precept went up by 150%. And Ken is talking about cutting fares in
:49:31. > :49:35.London. If you on the minimum wage, you are paying a third of your
:49:35. > :49:40.income on fares. Ken is talking about putting �1,000 back into
:49:40. > :49:44.pockets. Let's talk about what will make a difference... No, we are
:49:44. > :49:50.talking about council tax. Ken has made a specific pledge about
:49:50. > :49:54.cutting fares by 7%, freezing them in following years. That is against
:49:54. > :49:58.Boris's change. Even if Boris's giving you �3 per year, he will
:49:58. > :50:02.take it away in fares on buses and tubes. People will draw their own
:50:02. > :50:07.conclusions if you don't want to talk about council tax. His is an
:50:07. > :50:10.elections we know? No, it is consistent with council tax been
:50:10. > :50:20.reduced wherever possible. That is the Sunday Politics in London.
:50:20. > :50:45.
:50:45. > :50:50.The eye and not sure it was a particularly impressive momentum in
:50:50. > :50:54.the first place. To start with, the Poles are looking for him OK, he
:50:54. > :51:00.seems to have stabilised his position, a few points ahead of the
:51:01. > :51:05.Tories. One of the opinion poll has the Tories ahead in a Labour paper.
:51:05. > :51:10.The Lib Dems is on seven, that is some comfort to the rest of them.
:51:10. > :51:13.What do you think? There are two issues dominating people's minds at
:51:13. > :51:19.the moment that Labour is hammering on, the NHS and the economy. In
:51:19. > :51:23.both cases, what we are seeing his team going for it, they are not
:51:23. > :51:28.letting go of it. I think that is symptomatic of something that is
:51:28. > :51:31.happening behind the scenes, which is Ed Balls' agenda is now
:51:31. > :51:36.increasingly the only one to be going for. Just before the recess,
:51:36. > :51:40.we saw David Miliband raising his head and nothing came of it. So
:51:40. > :51:43.what we are seeing is a strong, consistent line on those two issues
:51:43. > :51:48.which will continually be pushed and carry on in this week ahead.
:51:48. > :51:51.Now, that has the advantage of being strong, but there are a few
:51:51. > :51:55.people in the Labour Party who are saying, OK, what happens to the
:51:55. > :52:00.radical agenda, responsible capitalism, the more radical
:52:00. > :52:03.politics? Are we just going back? remember when responsible
:52:03. > :52:06.capitalism was regarded as a sell- out in the Labour Party. Not a
:52:06. > :52:11.radical agenda, that would be socialism. The remarkable thing
:52:11. > :52:14.about politics at the moment is not momentum, it is stability. Tories
:52:15. > :52:18.and Labour have been at level- pegging for a while, and if you dig
:52:18. > :52:20.into the underlying questions, Labour's performance on some
:52:21. > :52:24.questions is consistently horrendous. The most striking
:52:24. > :52:30.bowling question recently, who would you trust to make unpopular
:52:30. > :52:35.decisions? 52% think that is the Tories, 9% think it is Labour,
:52:35. > :52:41.roughly the same percentage to think that Elvis is still alive.
:52:41. > :52:44.is, isn't he? You might know! on the dark side of the move.
:52:44. > :52:48.may have seen them. There is a question about how long does
:52:48. > :52:51.opinion polls can continue when the Conservatives' record and the
:52:51. > :52:55.editors of the economy is so shocking. But how long has that
:52:55. > :52:58.Labour expectation been going on? George Osborne gave the bleakest
:52:58. > :53:03.economic statement a Chancellor has given since the war, and it has
:53:03. > :53:08.made zero impact on the main polling question of the economic
:53:08. > :53:10.competence Barling question. There was a significant intervention from
:53:10. > :53:15.Alex Neil turned on the Labour website Labour list, and as I
:53:15. > :53:20.understand it, he is on the soft left of the party, and he is having
:53:20. > :53:24.an absolutely blistering go at Ed Miliband in the last couple of days,
:53:24. > :53:28.saying he is not a leader. I mean, enjoy reading it. It is not very
:53:28. > :53:32.loyal. It is a phenomenally critical piece. You can always
:53:32. > :53:36.trust your colleagues to do you down! If it is significant it is
:53:36. > :53:40.being attacked from the left and the right. George Osborne is being
:53:40. > :53:45.attacked by the left and the right, anyway. The budget is not far away,
:53:45. > :53:49.Maj 21st, we have got the Lib Dems, who have always wanted to take
:53:49. > :53:54.everybody out of tax below �10,000. Now Ed Balls is saying, if you do
:53:54. > :53:59.not want that, do it that way as well. It is intriguing that there
:53:59. > :54:03.is an alliance between Ed Balls and the Tory Right, who also wants the
:54:03. > :54:07.Chancellor to cut taxes. People see it as somehow perverse that a Tory
:54:07. > :54:10.chancellor is the one who is resisting calls for tax cuts, but
:54:10. > :54:17.he will know that there has always been two forms of conservative
:54:17. > :54:21.attitude on this action. Reignites believe you can cut taxes and
:54:21. > :54:25.stimulate the economy. -- reignites. Then there is straightforward
:54:25. > :54:30.fiscal Conservatives who believe you can only cut taxes if you can
:54:30. > :54:34.pay for it. Osborne has always been a fiscal conservative, rather than
:54:34. > :54:38.the other way. He ruled out unfunded tax cuts as Shadow
:54:38. > :54:41.Chancellor, so I'm not sure why people are surprised by this.
:54:41. > :54:44.whole thing about George Osborne is quite depressing. When he talks
:54:44. > :54:49.about the economy, it is like he is talking about a storm or an
:54:49. > :54:52.earthquake, something that he has no control over whatsoever. It is
:54:52. > :54:56.almost like an impotent weather man coming out and talking about it.
:54:56. > :55:01.The public are increasingly thinking, it is your job to sort
:55:01. > :55:04.that out. When did you see him coming out and talking about it?
:55:04. > :55:10.George Osborne is virtually invisible. Danny Alexander is being
:55:10. > :55:15.used... That is true. Danny Alexander is being used as a
:55:15. > :55:20.periscope. Haven't the focus group people said, keep him under wraps?
:55:20. > :55:24.Maybe in Scotland, yeah! May be everywhere, as I understand it.
:55:24. > :55:29.on the point of him taking the laissez faire view, is the evidence
:55:29. > :55:33.that the public are on side with that? Labour polls partly on the
:55:33. > :55:36.economy still. The public believes that as long as international
:55:36. > :55:39.events remain convulsive, especially in Europe, it is
:55:39. > :55:42.unrealistic to expect an open economy like Britain to be growing
:55:42. > :55:47.at a rapid clip. If the government is using international events as an
:55:47. > :55:54.excuse, the public think it is a good excuse. We saw the interview
:55:54. > :55:59.with the Greek finance minister has. Is any of this come to work?
:55:59. > :56:03.whole of Greece? I think there's going to come a point where the
:56:03. > :56:06.economic damage and the degradation to national sovereignty of the
:56:06. > :56:10.situation that is being imposed on Greece is going to be too much of a
:56:10. > :56:14.burden, too much of a cost for them to pay. We heard this week that
:56:14. > :56:19.even the Greek opposition will have to sign up to the cuts that are
:56:19. > :56:22.being imposed, and that seems to be fundamentally undemocratic and
:56:22. > :56:25.really quite unsustainable. They are saying, we are not going to
:56:25. > :56:28.give your all the money, we are putting it into an escrow account
:56:28. > :56:34.because we do not trust you. Germany is saying, do not have
:56:34. > :56:37.elections, do not bother. It is not like Greece is the home of
:56:37. > :56:41.democracy, do not have that! We may come back, will put a group into
:56:41. > :56:45.atoms, and we will tell you how to spend the money. I can see why
:56:45. > :56:49.people are alarmed by this and why they feel it is undemocratic, and I
:56:49. > :56:53.agree with that. But I'm not a German or Dutch taxpayer or Finnish
:56:53. > :56:56.taxpayer. If I were, I may look at this and think, we have provided
:56:56. > :57:00.bailout money in return for the promise of reform which has not
:57:00. > :57:06.taken place. We want something for something, not something for
:57:06. > :57:09.nothing. Tacitus is not Greek, he was German. They created a desert
:57:09. > :57:13.and called it peace. The reason I am looking worried is because I
:57:13. > :57:17.think you are testing me on my history! What worried me about the
:57:17. > :57:21.interview is he admitted there was no contingency plan. I hope this
:57:21. > :57:26.was simply for the cameras, because otherwise where will we be? William
:57:26. > :57:29.Hague said on the Andrew Marr Show that we had a contingency plan!
:57:29. > :57:33.There is a shift of thinking and our government behind the scenes. A
:57:33. > :57:37.few months ago, it was obvious to everyone that Greece leaving the
:57:37. > :57:40.euro would be the worst situation for everyone concerned, not just
:57:40. > :57:44.Greece, but Britain and Europe. People now seem to think it is a
:57:44. > :57:48.finer calculation. They still think Greece staying in is the least bad
:57:48. > :57:53.alternative, but it is a closer calculation, and that is not a
:57:53. > :57:58.public position but it is going on behind the scenes. The former
:57:58. > :58:03.finance minister of Argentina, Your article in the Economist, John
:58:03. > :58:07.Prescott, sorry he could not stay to talk to... I am so disappointed!
:58:07. > :58:11.There is a group of bookies outside waiting for you because of your
:58:11. > :58:15.campaigning in south London. Excellent, bring it on! That is a