:00:43. > :00:46.Good afternoon. As we enter another big week for the controversial
:00:46. > :00:53.health reforms is Labour scaremongering on NHS
:00:53. > :00:58.privatisation? Andy Burnham joins us for our top story. In his first
:00:58. > :01:03.major television interview since quitting the Cabinet, Liam Fox on
:01:03. > :01:07.why George Osborne should depend on Tory policies to grow the economy
:01:07. > :01:11.even if the Liberal Democrats don't like it. And that he does want to
:01:11. > :01:16.return to government. That is the Sunday interview. Could Lords
:01:16. > :01:21.reform be the unlikely issue that cracks the coalition? A Lib Dem
:01:21. > :01:26.Lord and troublesome Tory backbencher go head to head. And
:01:26. > :01:33.our political panel of the bright young things to analyse British
:01:33. > :01:37.politics in the week ahead... And tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:37. > :01:41.In London, the French Socialist presidential candidate comes to
:01:41. > :01:51.town as the community prepares to vote for the first time for its own
:01:51. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:00.All that coming up but first, the The Syrian government is holding a
:02:00. > :02:04.referendum on a new constitution today despite continuing violence
:02:04. > :02:09.in the country. Activists who have denounced the vote as a sham say
:02:09. > :02:17.more than 80 people were killed yesterday, although this cannot be
:02:17. > :02:21.independently verified. Incredibly, in a country Inter while, and
:02:21. > :02:26.nationwide referendum on a brand new constitution -- in turmoil.
:02:26. > :02:34.People voted that some of the more than 14,000 polling stations set up.
:02:34. > :02:38.In places like Damascus it looked fairly normal. But in the country's
:02:38. > :02:43.third biggest city, Homs, they are busy burying the dead from the
:02:43. > :02:47.latest violence, it has been a battleground for months. The last
:02:47. > :02:51.three weeks have seen massive bombardment of rebel districts like
:02:51. > :02:55.for Baba Amr, for people here the referendums are a bad joke, it is
:02:55. > :03:01.being promoted now to try to deflect mounting internal and
:03:01. > :03:06.outside pressure. There is every possibility of a civil war. Outside
:03:06. > :03:11.intervention would not prevent that, it would probably expedited. I
:03:11. > :03:17.think as you try to play at every possible scenario there are many
:03:17. > :03:20.bad ones. But President Assad seems confident that with backing from
:03:20. > :03:23.Russia and China he can continue Russian defiance while holding out
:03:23. > :03:28.promises of a democratic future which his critics just do not
:03:28. > :03:32.believe. The first edition of the Sunday
:03:32. > :03:36.version of the Sun newspaper hit the newsagents this morning. Rupert
:03:36. > :03:42.Murdoch was on hand with the editor to oversee the first edition which
:03:42. > :03:49.has a cover price of just 50p and it could spark a price war in the
:03:49. > :03:53.Sunday tabloid market. I think he will keep the Sunday edition as 50p
:03:53. > :03:57.for the foreseeable future, it will give it a strong footing in there
:03:57. > :04:01.market, it does not look like competitors will compete. The
:04:01. > :04:06.Mirror stayed full price which is hard on their editorial team, you
:04:06. > :04:11.can see the Murdoch's real passion for Journalism shines through.
:04:11. > :04:15.South African government has given more details of the besieged or
:04:15. > :04:19.Nelson Mandela underwent yesterday. He underwent keyhole surgery to
:04:19. > :04:23.insert a small camera to investigate her stomach pains.
:04:24. > :04:29.South Africa's Defence Minister has said Mr Mandela is recovering well,
:04:29. > :04:32.describing him as fine and handsome. Pakistani security forces have
:04:32. > :04:37.started demolishing the compound where Osama Bin Laden was killed by
:04:37. > :04:42.American forces last May. The country's authorities want the then
:04:42. > :04:48.the site from becoming a shrine, it served as the Al-Qaeda leader's
:04:49. > :04:53.hideout for more than five years. More news as 6:30pm later.
:04:53. > :04:57.The government's bill to reform the NHS continues its troubled passage
:04:57. > :05:00.through Parliament this week when the Lords will consider the most
:05:00. > :05:05.controversial part, the bit that deals with expanding the role of
:05:05. > :05:09.the private sector. Many of you have been ramping up the rhetoric
:05:09. > :05:18.on that issue but are they scaremongering about plans to
:05:18. > :05:25.privatise the NHS? Andy Burnham joins us. Is it Labour's claim that
:05:25. > :05:30.the effect of the reforms will be the privatisation of the NHS?
:05:30. > :05:34.this Bill is a break with 63 years of NHS history, it turns the NHS
:05:34. > :05:39.into a market and that is why we are seeing such huge opposition
:05:39. > :05:43.from patients and professionals who can see this bill for what it is. A
:05:43. > :05:48.privatisation plan from the NHS. For example, the provision to allow
:05:48. > :05:51.hospitals to charge up to 49% of their income from the treatment of
:05:51. > :05:55.private patients, there is a requirement at the moment on
:05:55. > :05:58.clinical commissioning groups to put three of their services out to
:05:58. > :06:02.competitive tender and the whole bill will subject the NHS to the
:06:02. > :06:07.full glare of European competition law. This is a huge break which is
:06:07. > :06:11.why people are opposed. Competition is not the same as privatisation.
:06:11. > :06:15.You introduced competition when Labour was in power, are you saying
:06:15. > :06:21.this is the start of a process that will end in private hospitals,
:06:21. > :06:26.private insurance and charges regardless of the ability to pay?
:06:26. > :06:29.I'm quite clear this is a genie out of the bottle moment for the NHS.
:06:29. > :06:33.It is not a continuation of what Labour was doing, if it was, we
:06:33. > :06:37.would not be a bill that is three times longer than the bill that
:06:37. > :06:41.establish the NHS. Charges regardless of the ability to pay?
:06:41. > :06:45.am not saying it would change that at the moment but I am saying it is
:06:45. > :06:50.a break with history. The reason professionals are so opposed to it
:06:50. > :06:52.is because on the commissioning side it opens the door to the
:06:52. > :06:58.widespread privatisation of commissioning and decision-making
:06:58. > :07:02.in the NHS. That is a huge break, a huge change, which is why people
:07:02. > :07:06.are so unhappy with this Bill. are you against doctors shopping
:07:06. > :07:11.around and getting their patients the best deal, whether it is in the
:07:11. > :07:14.NHS, or private? I am not. When I came back as shadow health
:07:14. > :07:18.secretary and made an offer to the government. I said drop the Bill
:07:18. > :07:21.and we will talk to you about giving doctors a greater role in
:07:21. > :07:23.commissioning. I am not opposed to that and that was something we
:07:23. > :07:28.introduced when we were in government. That would mean
:07:28. > :07:33.competition. No, just giving conditions a greater role in
:07:33. > :07:38.shaping services. It is a distraction from the real reform
:07:38. > :07:42.the NHS needs. It needs service changed, not structural reform, we
:07:42. > :07:50.need to provide services differ in communities, less done in hospitals,
:07:50. > :07:54.more closer to home. That is the real reform the NHS needs. This
:07:54. > :08:00.Bill, this top-down restructuring is a distraction from that, which
:08:00. > :08:10.is why we oppose it. We need to integrate services, but instead of
:08:10. > :08:10.
:08:10. > :08:14.integration this Bill will bring fragmentation. The BMA's balloting
:08:14. > :08:19.doctors on on action on the planned pension reform, are you going to
:08:19. > :08:23.back it? It is not for me to make any comment about whether I
:08:23. > :08:27.support... He has it is! You are the shadow health secretary. I am
:08:27. > :08:30.pleased doctors are not taking strike action that will damage
:08:30. > :08:34.patients but these are matters for the BMA, they must make their own
:08:34. > :08:44.decisions about their pensions. I do not want to see any action at
:08:44. > :08:46.
:08:46. > :08:49.I do not see any action that would harm the interests of patients or
:08:49. > :08:52.the NHS, people have to take the decisions they take to protect
:08:52. > :08:59.pensions, but I am pleased the BMA said they would not sanction
:08:59. > :09:03.anything that would harm patients are much jury has to be right.
:09:03. > :09:08.Since Liam Fox left the Cabinet the former defence secretary has pretty
:09:08. > :09:16.much kept his head down, until this week. He re-entered the political
:09:16. > :09:19.fray with some forthright Budget advice for the Chancellor. Dr Fox's
:09:19. > :09:24.resignation last October followed controversy over his friendship
:09:24. > :09:27.with Adam Werritty, he apologised to the house for errors he made in
:09:27. > :09:32.mixing his personal and professional life. I accept it was
:09:32. > :09:36.a mistake to allow distinctions to be blurred between Wyatt -- my
:09:36. > :09:41.professional responsibilities are my personal loyalty to a friend.
:09:41. > :09:44.This week's piece for the Financial Times urged the Chancellor to take
:09:44. > :09:48.radical action to stimulate growth. He called for a cut in employment
:09:48. > :09:52.regulation to make it easier for businesses to hire and fire staff.
:09:53. > :09:55.And further spending cuts to pay for a reduction in tax on
:09:55. > :09:59.employment. George Osborne reportedly saw the article before
:09:59. > :10:05.it was published and asked for no changes, but the real question is
:10:05. > :10:08.whether Dr Fox's radical prescriptions can be stomached by
:10:08. > :10:12.Nick Clegg and the Lib-Dems. The former defence secretary has not
:10:12. > :10:18.given a major television interview since he left the government. Until
:10:18. > :10:27.now. I spoke to him and our Westminster studio this morning. --
:10:27. > :10:31.Why have you chosen to intervene now on the state of the British
:10:31. > :10:37.economy? A As we approach the Budgett it has become a political
:10:37. > :10:43.focus and I think it is important we return to concerts of financial
:10:43. > :10:45.orthodoxy, talks about -- talk about living within our means and
:10:45. > :10:49.recognise that we live in a competitive global economy and
:10:49. > :10:55.there is not a choice between competing are not competing, the
:10:55. > :10:58.choice is between competing and managed to climb. Is it also true
:10:58. > :11:03.you're concerned about the lack of a concerted Conservative voice in
:11:03. > :11:08.the run-up to the Budget to counter all the Lib Dem lobby? The Lib Dems
:11:08. > :11:12.have been quite vocal in saying what they want. I don't blame them
:11:12. > :11:19.for that, although I do not think it is necessarily the best way to
:11:19. > :11:25.run a coalition, but I think it is important that the voices made
:11:25. > :11:27.Clear -- voice is made clear the Conservatives are keen to compete
:11:28. > :11:34.in the world, have a sustainable economic growth programme and that
:11:34. > :11:38.is not possible unless we make it more possible for employers to take
:11:38. > :11:41.on and to lay off staff. Don't you think people who think like you
:11:41. > :11:45.need to get their act together? All the incoming missiles on the
:11:45. > :11:49.Chancellor had been from the Lib Dem side. You have almost been a
:11:49. > :11:52.lone voice on this. I would not quite agree with that but I think
:11:52. > :11:56.the Conservatives have conducted their lobbying with the Chancellor
:11:56. > :12:01.in private, there has been a lot of public lobbying by the Lib-Dems. It
:12:01. > :12:05.is important to show the Conservative Party and the country
:12:05. > :12:11.that there is an active campaign to try to persuade the Chancellor on
:12:11. > :12:16.some of the issues that we would find important. The Conservatives
:12:16. > :12:20.make up 56 of the coalition, not half. You have floated the idea of
:12:20. > :12:26.making it easier to hire and fire people, to have a more liberal
:12:26. > :12:32.labour market but your party could not even win an overall majority
:12:32. > :12:42.for what you might regard as a bit of a milk and walk -- the milk and
:12:42. > :12:46.
:12:46. > :12:49.These are the people who in the 1980s blocks every possible reform,
:12:49. > :12:55.they are the same people who today would actually preserve the
:12:55. > :12:59.benefits of those in work at the cost of those out of work. I think
:12:59. > :13:03.the Conservatives in particular must take this moral case to the
:13:03. > :13:05.left, the left are saying that those in work should have all their
:13:05. > :13:09.labour market protections maintained, although social
:13:09. > :13:15.benefits maintained, if that means keeping a generation out of work,
:13:15. > :13:19.so what? That is acceptable. For the sake of the economy and the
:13:19. > :13:22.well-being of the country and the UN people of the country, we have
:13:22. > :13:27.to take on the trade unions, these vested interests and make sure we
:13:27. > :13:32.have a more liberal approach to Labour. Are you sure it is just
:13:32. > :13:36.union leaders who think your eyes on the inherent to unrepentant
:13:36. > :13:40.Thatcherism, is there not a view among the lot of Conservatives
:13:40. > :13:45.close to Cameron that they do not want to go down this road either?
:13:45. > :13:52.The country needs to be given a frank debate. It is not a matter of
:13:52. > :13:55.should be complete, or not? As if it is a choice. If we do not
:13:55. > :13:59.compete we become irrelevant in the global context, we are less able to
:13:59. > :14:04.export, to learn our way, we have to do it because the alternative...
:14:04. > :14:06.I understand that but have you convinced your own side? You talk
:14:06. > :14:10.about deregulating the labour market but the government already
:14:10. > :14:14.has a blueprint for doing that. It does most of what you would want to
:14:14. > :14:20.do. It has been sidelined, pigeon holed, kicked into the long grass.
:14:20. > :14:25.That is an argument for bringing forward the case. I think we need
:14:25. > :14:28.to argue that, we need to come back to the point I made that it is not
:14:29. > :14:33.a choice, we cannot say we are comfortable with the political
:14:34. > :14:38.compromise because that compromise might be detrimental to the
:14:38. > :14:44.country's national interests. has David Cameron gone along with
:14:44. > :14:50.it? There is an argument inside the coalition about it. I think we need
:14:50. > :14:53.to constantly have that re-examined. When you said in the Financial
:14:53. > :14:58.Times that "political objections have to be overridden on this
:14:58. > :15:02.particular issue of labour market deregulation", can we be honest,
:15:02. > :15:07.that is code for saying David Cameron should stand up to the Lib
:15:07. > :15:11.Dems. It meant that the objections inside government and outside of it,
:15:11. > :15:16.but yes, including the arguments put forward by coalition partners,
:15:16. > :15:26.they need to be taken on and overridden, in my view, otherwise
:15:26. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:38.we would come about managed decline It is not just David Cameron. The
:15:38. > :15:42.argument needs to be made. should, including him. The it is
:15:42. > :15:47.not just David Cameron. The whole Government needs to understand the
:15:47. > :15:53.importance of this. The Commons that you referred to from the trade
:15:53. > :15:57.union leaders, I find those interesting. What was regarded as
:15:57. > :16:04.mainstream conservative orthodoxy for a very long time is now
:16:04. > :16:10.regarded as something radical. It is not radical, it is common sense.
:16:10. > :16:14.Do you think that David Cameron really agrees with you? I am sure
:16:14. > :16:18.that David Cameron, having come from all the time that he spent in
:16:19. > :16:23.the Conservative Party and all the history of the Conservative Party,
:16:23. > :16:28.that he will fundamentally agree with those economic principles, as
:16:28. > :16:35.will the Chancellor. But we face the difficulty of a coalition
:16:35. > :16:41.government. It is important that those who are free to speak out
:16:41. > :16:45.need to make the case, because the cases vital to our national
:16:45. > :16:50.economic survival. Do you agree with what one Tory newspaper said
:16:50. > :16:57.yesterday, and I think it is the view of a lot of your colleagues on
:16:57. > :17:02.the backbenches, that the Conservatives are allowing the
:17:02. > :17:06.Liberal Democrat tail to wag of the Tory dog? Among Conservative
:17:06. > :17:11.activists there is the perception that the Liberal Democrats are far
:17:11. > :17:17.more free to voice what they want and the Conservatives. They are
:17:17. > :17:22.also getting their way on the issues you are speaking about?
:17:22. > :17:26.on welfare for example there is a very conservative agenda that is
:17:27. > :17:33.being followed. But there is a perception that some of the senior
:17:33. > :17:38.Liberals are more free to voice what they want, and that is
:17:38. > :17:42.important because the Conservatives who make-up more than half of the
:17:42. > :17:48.coalition need to be reassured that the Conservative agenda at is being
:17:48. > :17:53.fully implemented. Are you sure that the policies of a Cameron
:17:53. > :18:00.government without Liberal Democrat restraint would be that different?
:18:00. > :18:05.What if angels sat on pinheads, it is a game for academics? For the
:18:05. > :18:09.price of not winning the election is a coalition. Without the
:18:09. > :18:16.coalition we would be stuck with a socialist government giving us more
:18:16. > :18:22.of the poison that has got us into this in the first place. At least
:18:22. > :18:27.we are dealing with the welfare issue and social reforms. You said
:18:27. > :18:32.that individual risk and effort were not been rewarded. Should the
:18:32. > :18:38.50 pence rate of tax be cut in the Budget? I think that if it is
:18:38. > :18:43.possible we should do it, but it is not the top priority. I would have
:18:43. > :18:52.thought that the priority would be getting the cost of employers down,
:18:52. > :18:57.so I would rather see any reduction in taxation on employers' taxation.
:18:57. > :19:03.Would you strike a deal with the Liberal Democrats where the top
:19:03. > :19:07.rate of tax was cut? We do not have the deficit because we are taxing
:19:08. > :19:13.too little. We have a massive deficit because we are spending too
:19:13. > :19:19.much. So you would not do a deal along those lines? I do not believe
:19:19. > :19:23.we should be raising taxes. It has been several months since he
:19:23. > :19:27.stepped down from government and you have had time to reflect on the
:19:27. > :19:35.circumstances of your departure. Do you think the punishment fitted the
:19:35. > :19:40.crime? I do not think it really matters. Things are what they are.
:19:40. > :19:46.I used to say two patients, there is no point in complaining about
:19:46. > :19:50.the air that you breathe. You have to make the best of it. Do you
:19:50. > :19:55.think it is unlikely that you will be backing government this side of
:19:55. > :20:00.the next election? It is a decision for the Prime Minister but I
:20:00. > :20:06.haven't -- but I have a number of projects that I would like to
:20:06. > :20:09.complete myself. But you would like to be back one day, I assume?
:20:09. > :20:18.come into politics to make a difference, but there are different
:20:18. > :20:24.ways of doing that. Should I take that as a yes? Yes. Simon Hughes,
:20:24. > :20:28.Liam Fox sending a strong message to the Liberal Democrats, what is
:20:29. > :20:34.your message to him? I thought his contribution was very measured and
:20:34. > :20:40.he put his case. We need growth and businesses to expand, and we agree
:20:40. > :20:45.with that. We need more people in work and opportunities for small
:20:45. > :20:50.companies to grow, and the whole of the agenda that we are signed up to
:20:50. > :20:55.it in the coalition in this country and in Europe, he is to make sure
:20:55. > :21:00.that we exploit the Common Market. We should build up the corporate
:21:00. > :21:06.and personal opportunities to earn money. People should have more in
:21:06. > :21:11.their pockets to spend. He thinks you are acting as if you are half
:21:11. > :21:18.of the coalition? I do not think that you can see things as simply
:21:18. > :21:22.as that in the coalition. But you have? With the Conservative Party,
:21:22. > :21:28.we made a majority, but we would not have made a majority with
:21:28. > :21:34.Labour. We were looking at the national interest. We were looking
:21:34. > :21:38.at Greece across the water. We are determined, and this is the set of
:21:38. > :21:44.Budget questions that you ask him, and I think about my colleagues
:21:44. > :21:51.when I speak all the time, that my ordinary constituents get a better
:21:51. > :21:55.deal. There is an opinion poll today that makes it clear it that
:21:55. > :22:00.people fear over the next year that they will have left to -- they will
:22:00. > :22:05.have less to spend on the normal things in life. We want millions of
:22:05. > :22:11.people to have more in their pockets. That is why we want to
:22:11. > :22:16.lift the personal allowance up to �10,000. On the dynamics of the
:22:16. > :22:20.coalition, Liam Fox is complaining about the fact that you undermined
:22:20. > :22:26.the support for the coalition by constantly grandstanding in public
:22:26. > :22:31.for policies, rather than by a lobbying behind closed doors, which
:22:31. > :22:36.is what happens in most European coalition governments?
:22:36. > :22:43.arrangement is identical. Our parties are entitled to put their
:22:43. > :22:48.case to the country. This is the first coalition since after the war.
:22:48. > :22:55.But you're always grandstanding on public occasions? Why do you not do
:22:55. > :23:00.things privately? Let me finish. We should make our case as a political
:23:00. > :23:06.party. At the end of the day the decision on the budget is taken by
:23:06. > :23:15.the Chancellor. As a party, we are very clear that the priority should
:23:15. > :23:20.be lifting taxes. Independent evidence, not our own internal work,
:23:20. > :23:23.it shows that the best way to achieve growth is to lift the
:23:23. > :23:28.personal allowance and give more people money in their hands to
:23:28. > :23:34.spend. It is nothing to do with property taxes, it is lifting the
:23:34. > :23:40.tax burden. If the Chancellor was to take more people out of tax,
:23:40. > :23:48.something along those lines, would you want a cut in the 50 pence top
:23:48. > :23:52.rate? The coalition, it is clear, the coalition was signed...
:23:52. > :23:56.Coalition does not speak about property taxes and going faster
:23:56. > :24:01.than the agreement? Wheat used sanction a top rate for these
:24:01. > :24:09.things were done at the other end? I do not think that reducing the
:24:09. > :24:17.top rate is the thing to do. This is a decision for the Chancellor.
:24:17. > :24:22.am asking for your opinion. manifesto was clear. Lift the
:24:22. > :24:31.personal allowance to �10,000, the most important thing affecting 20
:24:31. > :24:35.million people. Secondly, a mansion tax. I represent people who are
:24:35. > :24:42.solid, working-class people, and what they are concerned about is
:24:42. > :24:47.what is happening to ordinary people who are out of work.
:24:47. > :24:52.Health Bill is backing the Lords now, and it is the biggest issue in
:24:52. > :24:58.Parliament. Shaded the chapter on competition be dropped altogether?
:24:58. > :25:05.No. I listen to you're interview with Andy Burnham and he avoided
:25:05. > :25:11.the issue entirely. This does not change the nature of the NHS. It
:25:11. > :25:17.keeps the basis that it is paid for by taxpayers. Labour enforced
:25:17. > :25:21.privatisation. That is in part three. We will deal with that, but
:25:21. > :25:26.there are also amendments from our colleagues in the Lords that will
:25:26. > :25:32.make sure that we are not subject to European competition law and we
:25:32. > :25:37.do not have limits for private practice. Watch this space. You
:25:37. > :25:43.will see a bill that will protect the NHS. The coalition government
:25:43. > :25:49.has had its fair share of controversies, tuition fees, the AV
:25:49. > :25:55.referendum, and the controversial NHS bill. So far it has survived
:25:55. > :25:59.them all, if a little tattered at the edges. But could the future of
:25:59. > :26:03.the coalition be at risk over the more obscure matter of Lords
:26:03. > :26:07.reform? It is a tradition that down the
:26:07. > :26:12.centuries almost as old as the place and its inhabitants, that as
:26:12. > :26:20.long as there has been a House of Lords there have been arguments for
:26:20. > :26:24.its reform. My Lords, pray be seated. This upper chamber of 829
:26:24. > :26:33.appointed and hereditary peers is facing a radical challenge from the
:26:33. > :26:37.coalition, driven by Nick Clegg, who wants 300 elected peers.
:26:37. > :26:42.Prime Minister and dire clear that we want the first elections to the
:26:42. > :26:48.reformed upper chamber to take place in 2015. While we know what
:26:48. > :26:52.we want to achieve, we are open- minded about how we get there.
:26:52. > :26:57.Whatever flexibility they is, those elections would be under
:26:57. > :27:01.proportional representation and would change the relationship
:27:01. > :27:06.between the two houses, disastrously say opponents,
:27:06. > :27:11.correctly say the Lib Dems. House of Lords reform was in the
:27:11. > :27:18.manifestos of all three major political parties. But for the
:27:18. > :27:22.Liberal Democrats, this is in our DNA, it is unfinished business.
:27:22. > :27:26.difficulties with four -- with reforming the House of Lords is
:27:26. > :27:31.that it crystallises the differences between the coalition
:27:31. > :27:35.members. The Liberal-Democrats want to demonstrate that they can
:27:35. > :27:43.deliver this in government. They need this and that is part of the
:27:43. > :27:47.problem for some Tory backbenchers. Tory MPs will be worried that the
:27:47. > :27:57.electoral reform that Nick Clegg failed to get in the AV referendum
:27:57. > :27:59.
:27:59. > :28:02.will come through the back door in the House of Lords. Tory MPs will
:28:02. > :28:06.be worried that this will reduce the size of the Commons on which
:28:07. > :28:12.the Tories are relying upon for a majority next time around. This
:28:12. > :28:15.could turn into a slow-motion horror story for the Government.
:28:15. > :28:19.And number of Conservative backbenchers have told us that they
:28:19. > :28:24.will rebel on this issue, but they are keen to deny being
:28:24. > :28:30.troublemakers. We would be neglecting our duty if we did not
:28:30. > :28:36.speak up, but it is hard to see what the good days in these reforms
:28:36. > :28:42.are to run the table. Whether you believe in an elected House of
:28:42. > :28:49.Lords are not, these reforms are problematic. Joining me are Matthew
:28:49. > :28:54.Oakeshott and Conservative backbencher Philip Davies.
:28:54. > :28:59.You want to change this historic British institution, so what is
:28:59. > :29:05.your pitch? It is undemocratic to have a chamber of parliament were
:29:05. > :29:09.the basis of sitting in it is whether you're a great, great
:29:09. > :29:19.grandfather shared Nell Gwyn with King Charles. There are not many
:29:19. > :29:22.hereditary peers now? There are 92. Also, as all three parties said in
:29:22. > :29:27.their general election manifestos and the coalition agreement, we
:29:27. > :29:33.believe it is time to move to a mainly elected second chamber.
:29:33. > :29:39.Philip Davies, it makes laws on our behalf but we have no say in who is
:29:39. > :29:42.in it, it is undemocratic? It is ironic that the Liberal Democrat
:29:42. > :29:48.say it is a matter of principle that people over are not elected
:29:48. > :29:51.should not be able to make lots. The European Commission has the
:29:51. > :30:01.power to make laws in this country and the Liberal Democrats are all
:30:01. > :30:04.
:30:04. > :30:08.Let's get back to the Lords. In the House of Lords we have a minute
:30:08. > :30:17.scientists, lawyers, cabinet ministers, business people, people
:30:17. > :30:24.from the charitable sector, it is largely a portion at -- proportion
:30:24. > :30:28.it. We have people from all sorts of backgrounds. I do not think
:30:28. > :30:34.Phillip sits in the Lords and sees what it is like. There are many
:30:34. > :30:38.people with experience but a lot of it is a long time ago and it is
:30:38. > :30:41.undemocratic, wrong in principle, why did all three party so they
:30:41. > :30:47.were in favour of reforming it at the last election and making it
:30:47. > :30:54.main elected? We have to stick to it. Our coalition agreement, Philip,
:30:54. > :30:59.which you may not be interested in, says we will establish a committee
:30:59. > :31:04.to bring forward proposals for a wholly elected chamber on the basis
:31:04. > :31:08.of proportional representation. Let me give you this so you can read it
:31:08. > :31:12.and remember it because this is what you signed up for. If you go
:31:12. > :31:17.back on that deal I can assure you you will not find Lib-Dems in
:31:17. > :31:27.parliament keen to vote for redistribution. If you want a
:31:27. > :31:29.
:31:29. > :31:33.fight... You made your point, Philip Davies. I voted against that
:31:33. > :31:37.bill as well. It would not bother me if they stuck to it, or not. I
:31:37. > :31:47.was elected by the people in Shipley before there was any
:31:47. > :31:48.
:31:48. > :31:52.coalition agreement. I did not sign up to that. I was not elected on it.
:31:52. > :31:56.You were elected on a Conservative manifesto which also said it.
:31:56. > :32:00.have about 200 crossbenchers, independent people in the House of
:32:00. > :32:03.Lords, you would not get that in an elected second chamber. When people
:32:03. > :32:06.complain to me about Parliament in my constituency they never complain
:32:06. > :32:10.about the House of Lords, it tends to be the House of Commons they
:32:10. > :32:16.complain about and why would we want to turn the House of Lords
:32:16. > :32:19.into a poor man's House of Commons, it is beyond me. Isn't the problem
:32:19. > :32:24.that within an elected chamber it would rival the Commons rather than
:32:24. > :32:27.feel subservient to it? I don't think so. There is no reason why
:32:27. > :32:31.should not be revising and scrutinising chamber with the same
:32:31. > :32:34.powers it has at the moment. We have a lot of work to do in the
:32:34. > :32:44.Lords because the Commons is so partisan and guillotine and be get
:32:44. > :32:44.
:32:44. > :32:48.We are talking about long terms fixed so people are not subject to
:32:48. > :32:53.whips. If you don't agree with the coalition agreement, which you
:32:53. > :32:59.obviously don't, your own manifesto you stood on said it was in favour
:32:59. > :33:07.of an elected House of Lords. There was a democratic mandate for this.
:33:07. > :33:10.I could not hand-pick and agree with them about everything. When I
:33:10. > :33:14.was knocking on doors in Shipley I did not come across anybody who
:33:14. > :33:20.said I will only vote for you if you reform the House of Lords. To
:33:20. > :33:25.suggest that would be nonsense. saying we must have changed
:33:25. > :33:29.constituency boundaries? Your proposed reform would put people
:33:29. > :33:34.elected into the Lords for 15 year terms, they would all be nominated
:33:34. > :33:39.by the parties, that is probably where they failed in government,
:33:39. > :33:43.that is real jobs for the boys. That is the point of proportional
:33:43. > :33:47.representation. We are in favour of openness where people can decide.
:33:47. > :33:52.Somebody like Philip who was well- known in Yorkshire would have a
:33:52. > :33:58.good chance of getting it to the Lords. Would you vote against Lords
:33:58. > :34:03.reform? Absolutely. So you'll be fighting the election on the old
:34:03. > :34:08.boundaries. If the Tories do not deliver on Lords reform you think
:34:08. > :34:12.the Lib Dems will oppose the boundary changes? I think we will
:34:12. > :34:15.not be wanting to put that through if they go back on the other half
:34:16. > :34:19.of a deal. That means the coalition is fractured. Are would rather
:34:19. > :34:25.debate the issue of the House of Lords on its merits rather than
:34:25. > :34:32.some kind of petulant threat about... You'd Tories can headband
:34:32. > :34:36.us but you never get away from Europe! If Philip and his friends
:34:36. > :34:41.persist in these tactics it will make it very difficult. We are here
:34:41. > :34:45.to implement a coalition agreement and stick to it and I am afraid we
:34:45. > :34:51.don't like a lot of it but we swallow it up and the Conservatives
:34:51. > :34:55.must do the same. Lord Opie shot complain to the House of Commons is
:34:55. > :35:02.so parties and that he wants to turn the House of Lords into an
:35:02. > :35:08.equally partisan chamber -- Lord Opie shot. I don't think he will
:35:08. > :35:11.crack the coalition. The Lib Dems are about 8% of the opinion polls,
:35:11. > :35:17.if they want to run away from the coalition to fight a general
:35:18. > :35:27.election I think we would be happy to fight that. We have to leave it
:35:28. > :35:38.
:35:38. > :35:46.Coming up... I look at the week The French Socialist presidential
:35:46. > :35:53.kaput -- candidate visits next week. But first, let's say hello to our
:35:53. > :35:55.MPs. Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North and Shadow
:35:55. > :36:02.Education Minister and the Liberal Democrat for Carshalton and
:36:02. > :36:10.Warrington. The mayoral contest could of probably this week with
:36:10. > :36:16.the first hustings. The candidates together for the first time in four
:36:16. > :36:21.years. The beginning of the campaign before an audience of
:36:21. > :36:31.elderly people and most people seem to think that your man came out on
:36:31. > :36:34.
:36:34. > :36:38.top. I think he was, by consensus the winner. I think it surprised
:36:38. > :36:44.Boris who is normally the kind of guy who wins on the quips and the
:36:44. > :36:49.light touch. Does it surprise you? Not at all. In the end, came won a
:36:49. > :36:53.handsome victory in 20021004 because of the character hears,
:36:53. > :36:57.relaxed, funny and he knows his stuff. Waugh was interesting about
:36:57. > :37:01.the hustings was the motif I think we will now see running through
:37:01. > :37:05.until May, the pressure that will be on Boris not being a full-time
:37:05. > :37:08.mayor, not being able to manage a �140,000 as a salary, and this
:37:08. > :37:15.campaign to encourage him not to carry on learning quarter of a
:37:15. > :37:21.million a year from the Telegraph. Tom, it is really hard to get away
:37:21. > :37:27.from asking this question... How does Brian Paddick muscle in on
:37:27. > :37:32.this race which looks to so many as being two horse? I suppose this
:37:32. > :37:36.hustings was the first chance where Brian was sharing the panel so that
:37:36. > :37:45.will automatically give him profile which so far he has struggled to
:37:45. > :37:51.achieve because the media have tried to play this simply as a two
:37:51. > :37:56.man campaign. He was appealing to the interests and concerns of the
:37:56. > :38:00.Senior citizens in the audience around the fear of crime and also
:38:00. > :38:06.being able to reinforce the message that the Freedom Pass is here to
:38:06. > :38:10.stay and Brian will appoint a deputy to deal with that. They were
:38:10. > :38:14.not going to go before that audience saying they would not do
:38:14. > :38:18.that! That would be a brave candidate. So on the Beales who
:38:18. > :38:22.threw her hat into the mayoral ring this week was an independent
:38:22. > :38:29.candidate, a former civil servant whose campaign was backed by her
:38:29. > :38:39.own boss, GUS, -- Gus O'Donnell. There are more independent
:38:39. > :38:42.candidates giving it a go. Who does she need to target? The obvious
:38:42. > :38:47.vote to aim for was the one targeted by major candidates this
:38:47. > :38:51.week which is the older voters. The older you are, the more likely your
:38:51. > :38:57.to vote, so she is strong on young people but actually the people you
:38:57. > :39:03.need to get out to vote a people aged 40 up boards. She has to aim
:39:03. > :39:07.something at them. -- upwards. You're mad, I think she needs to
:39:07. > :39:11.get across the message to be fed up middle, people who think it is all
:39:11. > :39:16.the same, we don't normally vote, that this would be a chance to kick
:39:16. > :39:26.the political establishment and show there can be a change and get
:39:26. > :39:30.What intrigues me is of what is it that in -- motivates an individual
:39:30. > :39:34.like you, do you wake up one morning and decide that is what I
:39:34. > :39:37.want to do? Become London mayor? There are many reasons why you make
:39:37. > :39:42.a life-changing decision like that but I do remember going into work
:39:42. > :39:47.one day in October thinking if I am going to do this today is that they
:39:47. > :39:51.have to write my resignation letter and had it in. So you left your
:39:51. > :40:01.civil-service job to do this? Positive MACRO. Why is this the
:40:01. > :40:02.
:40:02. > :40:06.next stage? -- yes. You are aiming high. I am but I am part of that
:40:06. > :40:10.big group in the middle which is tired of the same old. I am tired
:40:10. > :40:14.of having the same tired old candidates running in the selection.
:40:14. > :40:18.I think an independent, non-party political mayor would be better for
:40:18. > :40:21.London because they will stay focused on the job and not get
:40:22. > :40:25.distracted like Ken and Boris always do with all that party
:40:26. > :40:29.political baggage. Isn't the key ingredient about an independent
:40:29. > :40:32.candidate, and one of the things Tony Blair said when he created
:40:32. > :40:37.this model hoped would happen, that big business figures would come
:40:37. > :40:41.forward, they needed a certain amount of recognition, a Branson
:40:41. > :40:44.figure, or Lord Allen should off the telly. I would say my
:40:45. > :40:48.credentials speak for themselves. 15 years at the heart of government,
:40:48. > :40:50.I know how things get done, how you bring government departments
:40:50. > :40:56.together, the groups and organisations that actually work
:40:56. > :41:02.together to make things happen, unlike Cannes and Boris, but other
:41:02. > :41:06.candidates, I can be a person that brings groups together who won
:41:06. > :41:10.normally divided by party politics. I think Ken and borrowers are quite
:41:10. > :41:14.decisive with their gas, insults, they are pulling communities apart
:41:14. > :41:18.and the Mayor of London should be a positive role model bringing people
:41:18. > :41:22.together. That is not what we have. Have you been a member of a
:41:22. > :41:28.political party? Know. A can you tell us which way you voted in the
:41:28. > :41:38.last election -- no. Can you tell us which we voted in the last
:41:38. > :41:41.
:41:41. > :41:46.election? The last one I voted for Some would say you have Boris
:41:46. > :41:49.Johnson with a huge recognition factor for the Conservatives, Ken
:41:49. > :41:53.Livingstone who is so associated with London politics, an ex-police
:41:53. > :41:58.officer, the Greens offering alternatives on transport, there is
:41:58. > :42:02.a big choice. I have huge respect for people who put themselves
:42:02. > :42:06.forward into public of this. Some of them have done good things for
:42:06. > :42:11.London but when I look at the range of candidates we have, they do not
:42:12. > :42:15.represent a fantastic diversity of London. I am saying now was the
:42:15. > :42:22.moment, people are so turned off with party politics, this is the
:42:22. > :42:29.moment to get new voices into the campaign. I congratulate you on
:42:29. > :42:34.pitching to do it. It is a brave thing to do, it is good to have a
:42:34. > :42:37.range of candidates. But I think the idea that somebody can really
:42:38. > :42:47.run for, or do a serious political job without being political is kind
:42:48. > :42:49.
:42:49. > :42:59.of missing the point. It is a political job which requires a
:42:59. > :43:03.
:43:03. > :43:11.The grim truth is you will be squeezed out of it because that is
:43:11. > :43:15.not how politics operates. individuals use this platform to
:43:15. > :43:22.say they want to offer a message, are they really contributing new
:43:22. > :43:26.aspects to the debate? I welcome fact she Vaughan is standing, we
:43:26. > :43:30.will have to see if she is offering something new. If she is putting
:43:30. > :43:34.the emphasis on community then I would argue that Bryan, put it to
:43:34. > :43:38.the work he did as a Senior police -- police officer in Brixton,
:43:38. > :43:45.bringing together communities which felt under the cosh, then I think
:43:45. > :43:49.he has demonstrated he has the community commitment. Voters might
:43:49. > :43:55.have a serious look at somebody who knows the organs of government, has
:43:55. > :44:00.major backers. I am not saying it does not need to be political, it
:44:00. > :44:03.does, but not party political. When you look at how the assembly works
:44:03. > :44:07.it is completely dysfunctional so I would say we need something new,
:44:07. > :44:13.different, but that does not get bogged down in party politics.
:44:13. > :44:17.is all we have time for on that. You can find a full list of
:44:17. > :44:21.candidates standing in those elections on the BBC London website.
:44:21. > :44:27.More to come on that contest in the weeks to come, not so much on this
:44:27. > :44:30.one. London is now officially on the French electoral map. In June
:44:30. > :44:35.French people living he will be voting in elections for their very
:44:35. > :44:45.own deputy for northern Europe. It is one of the reason Socialist
:44:45. > :44:47.
:44:47. > :44:53.presidential candidate hits our The 7th largest French city is not
:44:53. > :45:03.in France. The population is thought to be more than certain
:45:03. > :45:12.
:45:12. > :45:22.80% of my clients are French, or attend a French school, or work for
:45:22. > :45:28.
:45:28. > :45:32.Why not pop round the corner and by French political literature in the
:45:32. > :45:37.local bookshop? The capital is set to become an unlikely battleground
:45:37. > :45:43.in this year's French elections. French people who live abroad will
:45:43. > :45:48.be able to vote for MPs that represent foreign constituencies.
:45:48. > :45:54.Because there are so many French people in London, in one of these,
:45:54. > :46:00.northern Europe, it is thought that half of the people live in his
:46:00. > :46:03.constituency. This is one of the candidates. She's campaigning on
:46:03. > :46:09.issues where the French government's decisions have a
:46:09. > :46:15.direct impact on life in the capital, such as the provision of
:46:16. > :46:21.French deals. The school around the corner is full. There is not enough
:46:21. > :46:27.space. You have more people coming here, but they cannot accommodate
:46:27. > :46:30.the brand new people. It is a big issue for London. The capital's
:46:30. > :46:37.role in the French election is about more than local issues in
:46:37. > :46:42.London. Next week this man, Francois Hollande, will be paying a
:46:42. > :46:50.visit. The Socialist candidate is currently the bookies' favourite to
:46:50. > :46:55.be, the most powerful man in France. But according to this correspondent,
:46:55. > :47:00.the visit may be less for the people in the capital and more for
:47:00. > :47:05.the people back home. It is important for him to have an
:47:05. > :47:09.international stature as a candidate, and London is a very
:47:09. > :47:14.important symbol because he has been keen on attacking the finance
:47:14. > :47:19.industry in the past. Maybe he has to make-up for that a little bit
:47:19. > :47:24.too sure that he is not anti Finance, like he appeared to be. He
:47:24. > :47:29.is designated that way by his opponents. Whatever message he
:47:29. > :47:34.chooses to bring next week, Francois Hollande will be reminded
:47:34. > :47:41.of one quote from earlier this year. My true adversary does not have a
:47:41. > :47:46.name, face of a party, he did not put for work his candidacy, but
:47:46. > :47:53.nevertheless, I see governs. My true adversary is the world of
:47:53. > :47:59.finance. If he takes the fight to the world of finance back home in
:47:59. > :48:04.France, could London proved to be the winner? If the brand new French
:48:05. > :48:10.president was to introduce measures that were seriously damaging to our
:48:10. > :48:17.financial services in France, then Paris's loss to dwell the London's
:48:18. > :48:22.again. We will be keeping a keen eye on what happens. In 2007 when
:48:22. > :48:26.Nicolas Sarkozy was just a presidential candidate he chose the
:48:26. > :48:31.capital as his first destination. Francois Hollande will try and
:48:31. > :48:36.replicate that success. I am joined by a Socialist Party
:48:36. > :48:44.candidate for northern Europe. Quite a constituency, covering 10
:48:44. > :48:50.countries? Indeed. 10 countries running from Dublin to reader in
:48:50. > :48:58.Estonia. It includes the Baltic states. And if you were successful,
:48:58. > :49:03.as you would represent...? 1 seed. Tomorrow I will be staying in
:49:03. > :49:10.London to prepare for Francois Hollande visit but I will be
:49:10. > :49:14.visiting five or six countries in the next several months. I will be
:49:14. > :49:20.under the buses and trains, with easyJet and Ryanair, with my
:49:20. > :49:30.backpack. Do you have a better chance of picking up thought in
:49:30. > :49:40.
:49:40. > :49:46.London than in that fear? -- than in Latvia? It is difficult to tell.
:49:46. > :49:51.Because the people who live here are business people, is this not
:49:51. > :49:55.your natural constituency? Would you expect the people in London to
:49:55. > :50:02.be natural socialist? I would not say that they are not natural
:50:02. > :50:07.supporters. It is difficult to tell. When I'm knead French people in
:50:07. > :50:12.London I feel that there is quite as strong anti- Sarkozy feeling.
:50:12. > :50:18.There is a strong French community working in the city, but people in
:50:18. > :50:24.this city are very diverse. Are you coming over here and criticising
:50:24. > :50:29.our banks which we love so much? That is not the political message
:50:29. > :50:34.that Francois Hollande wants to send. Does he still feel that his
:50:34. > :50:39.true enemy is the world of finance? It is not a feeling, it is a
:50:39. > :50:45.programme, and when he set the programme, there was a massive
:50:45. > :50:53.financial crisis in 2008. We feel that nothing has been done to
:50:53. > :50:57.tackle the causes of the crisis. It could happen again tomorrow.
:50:57. > :51:01.Mayor of London says that if you carry on seeing this, attacking the
:51:01. > :51:10.financial system, all the banks will leave Paris and come to
:51:10. > :51:18.London? He is putting forward a very pragmatic proposals about
:51:18. > :51:25.separating the invest ment and the detailed activities in banks,
:51:25. > :51:31.transaction tax. But what Boris Johnson says is what Boris Johnson
:51:31. > :51:39.says. It is quite a cliche. were schooled in France for 10
:51:39. > :51:43.years? That is true. I got my first political experience in France. It
:51:43. > :51:48.was at a time when the French farmers were burning British sheep.
:51:48. > :51:53.They were setting fire to lorries that had pretty chic in them, so
:51:53. > :51:57.last time a question about how well the British sheep were doing and he
:51:57. > :52:02.was thrown by the question. What is your feeling about this
:52:02. > :52:07.constituency and bringing people together? Your constituency has the
:52:07. > :52:15.highest number of French residents. Sometimes I complained when there
:52:15. > :52:22.is a failure on the Baker Line and it is nothing to do with me. THEY
:52:22. > :52:27.ALL TALK AT ONCE I am rooting for her all the way down the line.
:52:27. > :52:30.I think she would be a fantastic candidate. There are lots of
:52:31. > :52:39.younger French people working in London because of the unemployment
:52:39. > :52:42.crisis in Europe. They are very anti- Sarkozy. You want to know
:52:42. > :52:49.about her election expenses travelling around all these
:52:49. > :52:57.countries? It must be an enormous cost? Are you asking me about
:52:57. > :53:02.English sheep? Not any more. must cost a lot. It is very
:53:02. > :53:07.regulated in France. The rules are different. We're not allowed to
:53:07. > :53:14.receive funding from private companies and it is a cap on
:53:14. > :53:18.expenses that we're not allowed to go by. If you get elected as the
:53:18. > :53:22.Member of Parliament for northern Europe, will you have a
:53:22. > :53:26.constituency office as we do a niche of those 10 countries?
:53:26. > :53:34.think there is scope for a follow up. We will come back to those
:53:34. > :53:39.issues. He is a flavour of what else has been happening this week.
:53:39. > :53:45.-- this is a flavour. Andrew Lansley is visiting Queen's
:53:45. > :53:50.Hospital in Romford. He had a positive news for Londoners. I have
:53:50. > :53:54.no plans to close hospitals in London but change is inevitable.
:53:54. > :53:59.Last rites for the demonstrators outside St Paul's with the Court of
:53:59. > :54:03.Appeal ruling they had no grounds for overturning the judgment, but
:54:03. > :54:07.the following day the protesters challenged the ruling on the
:54:07. > :54:12.grounds that the ownership of the land that sent Paul stands on is
:54:12. > :54:18.uncertain. This former Met chief has called for an inquiry into last
:54:18. > :54:24.summer's riots. The government has failed to discover what lay behind
:54:24. > :54:29.these events. The mayor, Boris Johnson, has called for the London
:54:29. > :54:36.2012 organisers to be more transparent on how tickets are
:54:36. > :54:43.allocated. 75 % have been allocated to the British public but for the
:54:43. > :54:46.most high-profile events, the proportion will be much lower. We
:54:46. > :54:53.got the games and you did not. There are you looking forward to
:54:53. > :55:02.seeing them in London? Of course. It was hard at the time, but no
:55:02. > :55:06.hard feelings. You election is in June. That is right. One month
:55:06. > :55:12.after the presidential election. Will you be able to see the games
:55:12. > :55:19.in London? I hope so. I could not get any tickets, but I will be
:55:19. > :55:29.watching on television. That is you, me, and you as well. That is all we
:55:29. > :55:35.
:55:35. > :55:38.So, there is quite a week in prospect, with more trouble in the
:55:38. > :55:48.Lords on the NHS, more lobbying on the Budget and that growing row
:55:48. > :55:56.
:55:56. > :56:00.over Lords Reform. Let's discuss it all in The Week Ahead.
:56:00. > :56:05.How representative of Tory backbench opinion is Liam Fox when
:56:05. > :56:11.he says the things he said today? think he was quite representative.
:56:11. > :56:16.I found his interview quite flat. I thought he might be more
:56:16. > :56:22.provocative. Instead, the things he was speaking about are the things
:56:22. > :56:26.that Tory backbenchers are voicing, the that they want to see something
:56:26. > :56:30.for business in this Budget. They are not speaking about income tax
:56:30. > :56:37.and are not mentioning taxes are consumer of things, they are
:56:37. > :56:42.speaking about business. He spoke in a coded way. The way that Tories
:56:42. > :56:47.used to speak when Mrs Thatcher was in power. Now the Thatcherite
:56:47. > :56:53.speaking code against David Cameron. He wants backing government so he
:56:53. > :56:58.is not going to completely stir it up? He was less incendiary than I
:56:58. > :57:03.thought he might be. He has a good idea when it comes to deregulating
:57:03. > :57:08.the labour market. Politicians always underestimate the impact of
:57:08. > :57:13.regulation on businesses. What I have a problem with his his tax
:57:13. > :57:20.policy. He wants to cut taxes and pay for that by cutting spending
:57:20. > :57:26.elsewhere. That is an internally consistent idea but not a stimulus.
:57:26. > :57:29.It is a supply-side reform, which is something different? I am
:57:29. > :57:35.interested in the split between the Liberal Democrats and the
:57:35. > :57:41.Conservatives because there seems to be a real agreement that we need
:57:41. > :57:47.tax cuts. But he will pay for them? The lead them seemed to be saying
:57:47. > :57:54.that the core food benefit from tax cuts with a 10,000 rate cut, but
:57:54. > :57:58.the more rich benefit with a map -- will not benefit with a mansion tax.
:57:58. > :58:04.There is no major Conservatives saying that the top rate should be
:58:04. > :58:09.cut. That is why the Tory backbenches should be so angry. We
:58:09. > :58:16.also interviewed Andy Burnham. Were you surprised that he used to be
:58:16. > :58:19.key word. He did say this was privatisation? I am not surprised
:58:19. > :58:24.because this is a fundamental shift in the way we are running the
:58:24. > :58:30.health service. The idea that 49 % of all hospital's money could come
:58:30. > :58:35.from private sector income as a massive shift. It will resonate
:58:35. > :58:43.with the public as well. There has never been a limit of privatisation
:58:43. > :58:47.in the NHS. The only party that had a target was Labour and Patricia
:58:47. > :58:52.Hewitt. Simon Hughes disagreed, he says this is not a fundamental
:58:52. > :58:57.change. As bad as this has been for the Government, there is a note of
:58:57. > :59:03.concern I would urge for Labour. The sound like they are beginning
:59:03. > :59:06.to think this is a bad idea because professional bodies say this. Given
:59:06. > :59:12.that Ed Miliband has been criticised for being too close to
:59:12. > :59:17.the unions, there is a trap that he has to avoid falling into. If he
:59:17. > :59:23.believes that the Bill is bad for patience, say that, but do not say
:59:23. > :59:27.because the British Medical Association said. He backed the
:59:27. > :59:32.doctors in their ballot over industrial action. I thought that
:59:32. > :59:38.was a very neat sidestep that he did there. The fundamental basis
:59:38. > :59:42.for this reform was that we want to give power to doctors and nurses,
:59:42. > :59:52.so it is valid for Labour to point out that if those people do not
:59:52. > :59:54.
:59:54. > :59:58.want reforms, then the bill falls on itself. Matthew Oakeshott called
:59:58. > :00:06.for returns died this morning, for a big move to get rid of the clause
:00:06. > :00:10.on competition altogether. If you get rid of that, the Bill is not
:00:10. > :00:16.worth having? For Andrew Lansley, that would be a disaster. It would
:00:16. > :00:22.be a complete embarrassment. I do not think that would be tolerated.
:00:22. > :00:27.Let me come to this looming battle. People forget that in France in
:00:27. > :00:33.1968 it was not the riots that brought down General de Gaulle it
:00:33. > :00:39.was a constitutional reform the following year. It could be this
:00:39. > :00:45.argument over Lords reform. Matthew Oakeshott said that as a lead them,
:00:45. > :00:53.a few, the Tories, do not give us Lords reform, you will not get the
:00:53. > :00:57.Absolutely. But got backlash we saw earlier was a glimpse of what the
:00:57. > :01:00.next two years might be like for the government. There is also
:01:00. > :01:06.another problem, the language of priorities, voters will think of
:01:06. > :01:14.this as an NASA Terek thing for the political class to be talked about
:01:14. > :01:18.and I think that is a danger for the Lib Dems and for the government.
:01:18. > :01:24.An interesting aspect of this is that it has been assumed they are
:01:24. > :01:28.getting reform through would come through the House of Lords itself,
:01:28. > :01:31.but there is going to be a rebellion in the Commons which will
:01:31. > :01:38.create a nightmare situation for him because it is one of party
:01:38. > :01:44.management and it puts the onus on him. I wonder whether a really
:01:45. > :01:50.radical Tory way of getting out of this problem is the idea that you
:01:50. > :01:56.abolish one chamber, so you eliminate... We what would the
:01:56. > :02:03.Lords do? They would be wandering the streets. Sleeping rough! What
:02:03. > :02:07.is interesting is a lot of people in this country look to the Lords
:02:07. > :02:10.to have one area where you have conviction politics where people
:02:10. > :02:17.have interrogated legislation, unafraid of poles and what the
:02:17. > :02:22.media might say. I agreed with your earlier but I do not think this is
:02:22. > :02:27.people's are priority with politics at the moment. The Clegg reform of
:02:27. > :02:33.the Lords involves voting by STV, the single transferable vote, it
:02:33. > :02:39.has always been the Liberal dream. That ensures a permanent holding of
:02:39. > :02:45.the balance of power forever by the Lib Dems. Why would Labour, or
:02:45. > :02:49.Conservative ever fall for that? -- a vote for that? The will be
:02:49. > :02:53.interesting to see what Ed Miliband does on this because ostensibly
:02:53. > :02:56.their party is to go for an upper chamber but you can see Ed Miliband
:02:56. > :03:02.has been very quiet about this and they are paying their cards close
:03:02. > :03:06.to their chest. -- playing. I think he thinks he can have some fun with
:03:06. > :03:10.this one. There is talk of the chancellor possibly go with the Lib
:03:10. > :03:14.Dems, a mansion tax, a couple of higher bans added to the current
:03:14. > :03:19.Council Tax but the issue of doing that is what they're not have to be
:03:19. > :03:23.a complete re-evaluation which nobody will agree to? And are that
:03:23. > :03:28.obstacle is why a week -- I don't think we will see anything in the
:03:28. > :03:33.direction of a Council Tax. People are lobbying... There is a
:03:33. > :03:37.historical irony here. In 2007 George Osborne staved off a snap
:03:37. > :03:40.election by announcing cuts, or promising to raise the threshold of
:03:40. > :03:45.inheritance tax. It would be ironic if the man who made his name by
:03:45. > :03:51.promising to cut tax brought about a shift of income to wealth
:03:51. > :03:56.taxation. A revaluation would only cost 200 million. That is the cost
:03:56. > :04:02.of doing it. But the cost to individuals... At the moment all
:04:02. > :04:07.eyes prices are based on 91 prices. That is a mess, a joke. If you own
:04:07. > :04:10.a one bedroom flat in a nice part of London you don't -- you pay the
:04:10. > :04:18.same amount of Council Tax as somebody living in a 2 million
:04:18. > :04:24.house. It is not fair, or efficient. That is it for today. We are back