:00:43. > :00:46.Morning, folks. This is the Sunday Politics. From the Rose Garden to a
:00:46. > :00:48.tractor factory, the coalition is two years old but nobody's in the
:00:48. > :00:53.mood to celebrate. The Prime Minister promises renewed focus on
:00:53. > :00:56.the economy. But will the relaunch and the Queen's Speech that
:00:56. > :01:00.followed it make a blind bit of difference? Communities Secretary
:01:00. > :01:03.Eric Pickles joins us for the Sunday Interview. Is there an
:01:04. > :01:08.alternative blueprint that would get the economy moving again: for
:01:08. > :01:13.example, radical deregulation or government stimulus? The two big
:01:13. > :01:16.economic ideas of the age go head to head. The pressure is back on
:01:16. > :01:22.Jeremy Hunt, David Cameron and the Tory Party after Rebekah Brooks'
:01:22. > :01:25.appearance at the Leveson Inquiry. But she also revealed a very cosy
:01:25. > :01:29.relationship between New Labour and the News International gang. So,
:01:29. > :01:35.haven't the Opposition also got a case to answer? We'll put that to
:01:35. > :01:37.Labour MP and hacking victim Chris Bryant. All that and the best and
:01:37. > :01:40.the brightest political panel in the business, here to discuss the
:01:40. > :01:50.week ahead and tweeting remorselessly as if their young
:01:50. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:11.lives depended on it, throughout All that between now and noon. But
:02:11. > :02:14.first the news with Maxine Mahwhinney. A man and a young boy
:02:14. > :02:16.have died after a boating accident on the River Avon near Warwick.
:02:16. > :02:19.Their bodies were recovered from the water at Barford. Two other
:02:19. > :02:29.children, who were earlier rescued from the river, are being treated
:02:29. > :02:33.in hospital. The accident happened in early evening in what were
:02:34. > :02:38.described as hazardous white water conditions. The father and three
:02:38. > :02:48.children, all under 10, had set add on a small plastic rowing boat on
:02:48. > :02:52.the River Avon. -- set out. It went over a weir and capsized. The girl
:02:52. > :02:56.had a cardiac arrest and needed emergency treatment at the scene.
:02:56. > :03:02.She has been taken to Birmingham Children's Hospital, where her
:03:02. > :03:06.condition is described as serious but stable. The boy is conscious
:03:06. > :03:11.but poorly. Emergency services searched the river and found the
:03:11. > :03:16.body of another child - a boy and the father late on Saturday night.
:03:16. > :03:21.Tonight I have been looking at emergency service workers who have
:03:21. > :03:26.been bent over in tears. You do not see that very often. A very
:03:26. > :03:30.traumatic incident to mind. We are feeling for the family tonight as
:03:30. > :03:35.well. Police are due to brief the villagers are Barford later today
:03:35. > :03:43.on the circumstances surrounding the deaths. They have banked
:03:43. > :03:46.relatives for their health and support -- thanked. Two British
:03:46. > :03:48.servicemen have been shot dead in southern Afghanistan by members of
:03:48. > :03:51.the Afghan national police force. One was a soldier from 1st
:03:51. > :03:54.Battalion Welsh Guards and the other an airman from the Royal Air
:03:54. > :03:57.Force. They had been providing security near a base in the Lashkar
:03:57. > :04:01.Gah district of Helmand province. Their next of kin have been
:04:01. > :04:04.informed. The Greek President is holding crisis talks this morning
:04:04. > :04:07.to try to form an emergency government. The leaders of the
:04:07. > :04:13.three main political parties have all failed to negotiate a coalition
:04:13. > :04:15.since the elections last Sunday. They remain deeply divided about
:04:15. > :04:21.the strict austerity measures needed for the country to receive
:04:21. > :04:29.international bail outs. Mark Lowen is in Athens. What can we expect
:04:29. > :04:33.today? This is the last chance to steady the ship, to fill the power
:04:33. > :04:39.vacuum, to form a government and stave off fresh elections, which
:04:39. > :04:43.could hasten the departure of Greece from the euro. Those crunch
:04:43. > :04:48.talks are under way but they are unlikely suit -- to succeed. They
:04:48. > :04:53.are deeply divided over the international loan agreement with
:04:53. > :05:01.the EU and the IMF. Do they stick to the cost cutting or stick to the
:05:01. > :05:05.euro membership of Greece? Most members want to keep the euro but
:05:05. > :05:10.ditch the bail out. Party leaders will try to reach an agreement on
:05:10. > :05:15.which path to follow. If they cannot agree, it will be up to the
:05:15. > :05:19.Greek people to decide in fresh elections. That's it. There is more
:05:19. > :05:23.news here on BBC One at 6pm. Rebekah Brooks was not the only one
:05:23. > :05:25.squirming as she gave her evidence to the Leveson Inquiry on Friday.
:05:25. > :05:28.Senior Conservatives including David Cameron and George Osborne
:05:28. > :05:30.could be forgiven for hiding behind the sofa as the former Sun editor
:05:30. > :05:36.and New International chief executive revealed just how cosy
:05:36. > :05:39.their relationship was. But, while Labour politicians have made hay,
:05:39. > :05:42.alighting on a new e-mail about Jeremy Hunt's role, they were also
:05:42. > :05:47.embarrassed by tales of pyjama parties, phone calls and close
:05:47. > :05:50.friendship between their party and Mrs Brooks. And, with senior Labour
:05:50. > :05:54.figures including Alistair Campbell coming before Leveson later this
:05:54. > :05:57.week, it is not over yet. I'm joined by Shadow Home Office
:05:57. > :06:04.Minister Chris Bryant, hacking victim and a prominent Labour voice
:06:04. > :06:10.on all things Murdoch. You are calling for the resignation of
:06:10. > :06:14.Jeremy Hunt. Should you not wait to hear what he has to say first?
:06:14. > :06:18.Justice Leveson has made it clear that he cannot and will not
:06:18. > :06:23.adjudicate on the ministerial code of conduct. The any person who can
:06:23. > :06:28.do that is the Prime Minister. He should be referring this matter to
:06:28. > :06:33.Alex Allan, the person charged with doing that. We have heard the case
:06:33. > :06:38.for the prosecution. We should hear the case for the defence before we
:06:38. > :06:45.get a judgment. Whether that just as well as on it is another matter.
:06:45. > :06:49.That is not how the Leveson Inquiry is set-up. It has no powers to do
:06:50. > :06:55.that. Surely he will quiz him on the issues and his relationship
:06:55. > :06:58.with BSkyB and with the people in these international? If he will not
:06:58. > :07:03.quiz him about the ministerial code of conduct because he has no
:07:03. > :07:09.authority to do that. Lord Justice Leveson has made it absolutely
:07:09. > :07:12.clear that he will not do that job. That is fine. That is a
:07:12. > :07:17.technicality. You are calling for his resignation even though you
:07:17. > :07:27.admit you have not heard the other side of the case. The News
:07:27. > :07:28.
:07:28. > :07:34.Corporation lobbyists and when the question about references to Jeremy
:07:34. > :07:39.Hunt were referred to, they talked about the special adviser and he
:07:39. > :07:43.has resigned. No one has talked about the whole of what was said in
:07:43. > :07:53.the evidence to the Leveson Inquiry. He made it clear there every time
:07:53. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :07:59.he referred to Jeremy Hunt, he had not actually spoken to Jeremy Hunt.
:07:59. > :08:04.He says in terms that, on occasion, he was merely transcribing been us
:08:04. > :08:11.from another person who referred directly to Jeremy Hunt. -- e-mails.
:08:11. > :08:15.The point that no one can run away from is the fact that every element
:08:15. > :08:20.that was predicted the Secretary of State would say, he did say. He did
:08:20. > :08:24.so before News International new information about what the
:08:24. > :08:29.Secretary of State was going to say before he said it and the fork
:08:29. > :08:34.commercial operators did. He could have got that information from a
:08:34. > :08:38.special adviser acting without the authority of his bosses. We do not
:08:38. > :08:43.know that. Special advisers are pretty much always joined at the
:08:43. > :08:48.hip to their minister. You are going to say about Damien McBride,
:08:48. > :08:53.I am sure. I put it to you again, pretty well knowing is not enough
:08:54. > :08:59.to convict a man before you have heard his case. The point is that
:08:59. > :09:04.the bats were out. They came from the Office of Jeremy Hunt, if not
:09:04. > :09:08.from Jeremy Hunt himself. I am not taking any one side but I am
:09:08. > :09:13.putting. It is a matter of natural justice that before you call for
:09:13. > :09:17.someone's resignation, you should hear the other side. Indeed. The
:09:17. > :09:22.place to hear it is in Parliament and not the Leveson Inquiry, which
:09:22. > :09:26.has nothing to do with these issues. That is meant to be about what
:09:26. > :09:30.happened at News International. The whole aim of this has been to get
:09:31. > :09:35.to the bottom of what actually happened. My anxiety about Cameron
:09:35. > :09:38.and all of this is what has happened so but is you have to
:09:38. > :09:41.track the truth out of them will start a pretend there were not
:09:41. > :09:51.meetings and then there were meetings and then there was an
:09:51. > :09:52.
:09:52. > :09:56.extra meeting. -- out of them. They pretend. What Lord Leveson has
:09:56. > :09:59.taught as is the incredible set of relationships between Rebekah
:09:59. > :10:04.Brooks, other senior News International people, and your
:10:04. > :10:10.Labour Party. Formal and informal, there were a huge number of people
:10:10. > :10:16.involved. You would just as in bed with them as the Conservatives have
:10:16. > :10:20.been. I personally was not. I understand why, in 1992, when we
:10:20. > :10:26.lost the general election and the Murdoch newspapers absolutely
:10:26. > :10:35.savaged - not tried to undermine the Tory leadership - and
:10:35. > :10:43.absolutely savaged the Labour Party generally. I think we went far too
:10:44. > :10:52.far. He created, in 2003, the communications that gave Mr Madoc
:10:52. > :10:57.everything he wanted. He could buy all of BSkyB. -- Communications Act
:10:57. > :11:05.gave Mr Murdoch. You did a tour with him beforehand. I argued
:11:05. > :11:11.against it at the time. Did you apologise? I have apologised many
:11:11. > :11:16.times was dug in the first debate I did in the House of Commons, I said,
:11:16. > :11:21.we allowed one man to have such power. You worked for him and you
:11:21. > :11:29.should know him better than anyone else. You should apologise. I have
:11:29. > :11:34.nothing to apologise for. Should Mr Smith and Mr Michel appear in front
:11:34. > :11:40.of Lord Leveson? I am happy for them to do so but Jeremy Hunt
:11:40. > :11:45.should explain why he has lied to the country. We are grateful for
:11:45. > :11:48.you saying it again but we have run out of time. It has been a little
:11:48. > :11:51.over a week since the coalition parties were given a good kicking
:11:51. > :11:54.by voters. Since then, David Cameron and Nick Clegg have been on
:11:54. > :11:57.a mission to regain the political initiative. Two years on, the
:11:57. > :12:03.coalition government is in relaunch mode, trying to capture an early
:12:03. > :12:06.sense of purpose and drive. David Cameron and Nick Clegg went to a
:12:06. > :12:12.tractor factory in Essex. Where better to tell voters that, from
:12:12. > :12:17.now on, they focus on the economy. The Government also unfair be
:12:17. > :12:21.second Queen's Speech. It wondered how much impact this would have in
:12:21. > :12:26.terms of jobs and grows. Business leaders were not impressed. One
:12:26. > :12:32.said there was a big, black hole in terms of helping firms expand. Liam
:12:32. > :12:36.Fox told us the main problem was employment will it -- legislation.
:12:36. > :12:42.We can make it easier to hire and fire people off. We can make it
:12:42. > :12:47.cheaper to hire people. We can stop protecting those in employment at
:12:47. > :12:50.the cost of those out of work at the present time. After suffering
:12:50. > :12:54.their first election drubbing since taking office, the Conservatives
:12:54. > :12:59.are desperate for some brighter economic news, to make sure it is
:12:59. > :13:08.not an experience they will have to repeat. And the Communities
:13:08. > :13:12.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins us for the Sunday Interview. Eric
:13:12. > :13:16.Pickles, this week David Cameron told us that restoring the economy
:13:16. > :13:21.to growth is the first priority of the Government. Where will that
:13:21. > :13:25.come from? That is for the Government to be able to create the
:13:25. > :13:30.conditions for us all to work that bit harder. The nature of the world
:13:30. > :13:37.has changed. We're up in competition, not just with European
:13:37. > :13:42.neighbours, but also the balance is shifting towards the Far East.
:13:42. > :13:48.understand that. We will come to the work harder line in a minute.
:13:48. > :13:54.Let me ask a game, where will the growth come from? It can only come
:13:54. > :13:59.from industry - people making things and selling things. -- ask
:13:59. > :14:05.again. Government can only create conditions for growth. There is the
:14:05. > :14:09.growing places fund which has proved quite successful. Bet is the
:14:09. > :14:13.Regional Growth Fund, which has proved reasonably successful.
:14:13. > :14:18.Ultimately it is about reducing taxation and giving people a chance
:14:18. > :14:22.to earn money and sell things people want to buy. You say it can
:14:23. > :14:30.come from businesses. It can only come from businesses. Let me show
:14:30. > :14:35.you the figures on business investment. In November, the OBR,
:14:35. > :14:41.the independent forecast for business investment was 7.7%. By
:14:41. > :14:45.March of this year it was downgraded to 0.7%. Wherever the
:14:45. > :14:52.growth is coming from the ship, it is not coming from business. That
:14:52. > :14:56.is why we have to support and growth figures. It is not down to
:14:56. > :15:02.the Government. We have reduced taxation on business. We have
:15:02. > :15:07.encouraged people to invest. It is a difficult financial time. You
:15:07. > :15:12.only need to look to the Continent to understand that. Britain cannot
:15:12. > :15:17.be completely diverse from the rest of the world. You said it is not
:15:17. > :15:22.coming from government. It can never come from government. We have
:15:22. > :15:27.seen it is not coming from business investment and the figures for next
:15:28. > :15:33.year do not look great. Where will it come from? What is massively
:15:33. > :15:40.important is to bed down on the deficit. We probably could create a
:15:40. > :15:46.false boom, if we followed Labour's policies of borrowing more but
:15:46. > :15:50.ultimately we would arrive at a reckoning, sooner or later. You
:15:51. > :15:55.only need to look across to our friends on the Continent to see the
:15:56. > :16:00.price of that reckoning. We know where it is not coming from. It is
:16:00. > :16:04.not coming from government, business investment, exports. What
:16:04. > :16:14.I'm trying to get from you this morning is, where will the growth
:16:14. > :16:19.
:16:19. > :16:25.It can only, it from business, from industry, from services, from
:16:25. > :16:29.things that we sell. The Government can only create the conditions for
:16:29. > :16:35.that to happen. What was the most important thing in the Queen's
:16:35. > :16:38.Speech to boost jobs and growth? That should only be seen in the
:16:38. > :16:44.context of the radical reforms that we introduced over the last two
:16:44. > :16:49.years. One it good thing would be the regulation of the energy market
:16:49. > :16:55.and the other would be the regulation of the banks. They will
:16:55. > :17:00.not boost growth? And they will create a more stable environment.
:17:00. > :17:06.The Government has said it will repeal necessary legislation. What
:17:06. > :17:11.unnecessary legislation will you repeal? I have been in the process
:17:11. > :17:19.of repealing rather a lot of unnecessary legislation. One of the
:17:19. > :17:23.first things I did was to repeal the housing information act.
:17:23. > :17:28.have done that, I accept that, and lots of people were happy that he
:17:28. > :17:35.did, but what major legislation will be repealed now, going
:17:35. > :17:42.forward? We will improve employment loss so it is easier for people to
:17:42. > :17:49.get into a job. That is something we need today. We need to ease up
:17:49. > :17:53.on the small restrictions on business. It is interesting that he
:17:53. > :17:57.said, that you would repeal unnecessary legislation, because
:17:57. > :18:02.you had a report that came up with all manner of proposals to
:18:02. > :18:07.deregulate the labour market. Have any of these proposals been
:18:07. > :18:16.implemented? I think some have been implemented but it is not my field
:18:16. > :18:20.of expertise. You called on Labour deregulation as one of the
:18:20. > :18:30.unnecessary things you would repeal. That is why we have got this bill,
:18:30. > :18:34.to be able to do that. Personally, I have introduce some restrictions.
:18:34. > :18:42.It will be easier on small business relief, and I think we delivered on
:18:42. > :18:45.that. I am told that all of it has been sidelined and that our
:18:45. > :18:51.understanding is that the only measure that remains is for
:18:51. > :18:57.companies employing fewer than 10 people. They could get rid of
:18:57. > :19:02.underperforming workers more easily. I am disappointed to hear that
:19:02. > :19:09.because it was certainly our intention to exempt micro companies
:19:09. > :19:14.from this legislation. So you're not getting your own way, are you?
:19:14. > :19:21.It is a coalition. Could you do more if you were not in coalition?
:19:21. > :19:27.You have to take our policies on the hall and on the whole, our
:19:27. > :19:30.policies have been for deregulation. William Hague has said this morning
:19:31. > :19:36.that the boss of Sainsbury's should stop complaining and work harder.
:19:36. > :19:42.What evidence do you have that they do not work hard already? I think
:19:42. > :19:50.we should all work harder, I should work harder, you should work harder.
:19:50. > :19:55.I do not have the time to work harder? What evidence do you have
:19:55. > :20:02.that these people are not already working very hard? The point
:20:02. > :20:05.William Hague was making was very reasonable. Government cannot carry
:20:06. > :20:13.the can cute make gross. It can make the conditions to create
:20:13. > :20:18.growth. I made this point earlier with regard to our discussions on
:20:18. > :20:23.how the world and competition is changing. The only way we can get
:20:23. > :20:27.out of this is by us all working harder. With Labour we had
:20:27. > :20:32.something for nothing culture. one could complain about Gordon
:20:32. > :20:36.Brown not working hard. We spoke to the British Chamber of Commerce
:20:36. > :20:42.this morning to get them to respond to the work harder man trap that
:20:42. > :20:48.you are putting out. They said that businesses up and down the country
:20:48. > :20:54.are busting a gut to find brand new growth opportunities. To borrow a
:20:54. > :21:01.phrase from politicians, we are straining every MACS in youth to
:21:01. > :21:06.ensure growth. I think we need to understand that it is immensely
:21:06. > :21:16.important that we are not going to it, I out of our economic
:21:16. > :21:18.
:21:18. > :21:28.circumstances and last week sell to the world. -- doing everything we
:21:28. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:33.can. You are blaming businesses. This is what the director of the
:21:33. > :21:38.British Chambers of Commerce said. There is a black hole when it comes
:21:38. > :21:43.to helping businesses to create enterprise, and growth. All we can
:21:43. > :21:53.do is to create the conditions for growth. We have reduced corporation
:21:53. > :22:01.tax. Would you like to deregulate more in your department? Yes, we
:22:01. > :22:08.have a very sensible rule of one in, one night. You mean that that there
:22:08. > :22:16.is one rule in, and one rule out. would like to do that and get rid
:22:16. > :22:22.of two rules. So one in, a two guide. But none of that would
:22:22. > :22:25.include the rules from Europe? wigmaker very big difference.
:22:25. > :22:33.of the rules affecting business come from Europe and you cannot
:22:33. > :22:39.touch these? We need to argue about those. But we trade within the
:22:39. > :22:44.European Union and we have to abide by those rules. Would you encourage
:22:44. > :22:54.that strategy across government, the strategy about one rule end, at
:22:54. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:08.two rules are out? Yes, I would. -- one rule in, two rules out.
:23:08. > :23:12.David Cameron listening to you? sure that he is. A unfortunately
:23:12. > :23:18.the public did not listen to you when it came to elected mayors.
:23:18. > :23:22.This is what you told the Tory conference two years ago. I believe
:23:22. > :23:29.elected mayors in cities will be embraced by the public if they have
:23:29. > :23:35.real powers. The voters said no. They did, and we now have a mayor
:23:35. > :23:40.in Liverpool. There will be one in Bristol, but I am bitterly
:23:40. > :23:46.disappointed that we do not have one in Manchester and Leeds.
:23:46. > :23:53.Birmingham, Manchester, Wakefield, Leeds and Bradford all voted
:23:53. > :23:58.against you. Why? I think largely because the entire political
:23:58. > :24:04.establishment in those cities were against them. We are moving into a
:24:04. > :24:09.world where it will be more about mayors. Manchester will regret
:24:09. > :24:18.having Liverpool next to it with a vibrant mayor running that city. It
:24:18. > :24:21.is not about this country. A place like Liverpool is as important as a
:24:21. > :24:27.place like Baltimore or Frankfurt and I think they will do better by
:24:27. > :24:32.having a mayor. But ultimately it is the people that should decide
:24:32. > :24:38.and you should never mark the people for their decision. In your
:24:38. > :24:44.view, is the idea dead, is the attempt to get elected mayors over
:24:44. > :24:48.for the foreseeable future? For the foreseeable future, we will not
:24:48. > :24:53.impose an idea on a set of cities that have said they do not want to
:24:53. > :25:01.have mayors. There are other ways we can do it, we have done a deal
:25:01. > :25:04.with Manchester. I understand. One final question. I know that you
:25:04. > :25:08.have changed your mind on gay marriage, you're now in favour of
:25:08. > :25:14.gay marriage and I heard you speak eloquently about your change of
:25:14. > :25:20.mind, but should it be included in the legislative programme for this
:25:20. > :25:26.government? There is still a consultation, as far as I know. It
:25:26. > :25:30.was never intended that we would legislate this year. I understand
:25:30. > :25:37.that some of my colleagues have... That some of your colleagues have
:25:37. > :25:40.said, let's not bother with it. you have something like several
:25:40. > :25:45.partnerships which are for all practical purposes a marriage,
:25:45. > :25:53.let's drop the hypocrisy and go all the way. Thank you for being with
:25:53. > :25:55.us. We're back in recession and the cuts have barely begun to bite. The
:25:55. > :26:00.evidence from Europe suggests that voters are looking to alternatives
:26:00. > :26:05.to austerity. Here the Chancellor is razzle look at sticking to Plan
:26:05. > :26:08.A, but is he right and what are the alternatives?
:26:08. > :26:13.Adam Fleming has been rummaging through the undergrowth to find
:26:13. > :26:21.answers. Just like the rest of the world,
:26:21. > :26:25.they are obsessed about getting things growing here. There are two
:26:25. > :26:29.schools of thought about how you get a gross. One says you need to
:26:29. > :26:35.prune back things that get in the way light government spending and
:26:35. > :26:41.regulation, the other that you need to nurture the economy with a big
:26:41. > :26:45.watering can filled with public money. When the coalition was born,
:26:45. > :26:55.in another garden, the Government committed itself to a course of
:26:55. > :26:57.
:26:57. > :27:03.crooning with very little watering. -- pruning. In the Queen's Speech
:27:03. > :27:07.this week, ministers promised another bout of the regulation.
:27:07. > :27:11.need to free up the supply side and by that time mean that we need to
:27:12. > :27:15.have a more competitive economy to provide goods and services in a
:27:15. > :27:22.global market. We need to deregulate the labour market in
:27:22. > :27:25.particular. But one man's deregulation is another's slicing
:27:25. > :27:31.up of employment rights, a particular concern to the Liberal
:27:31. > :27:35.Democrats. And then you meet people like the economist Jonathan Portes
:27:35. > :27:42.who happened to write Norman Lamont's gain from his speech about
:27:42. > :27:47.the green shoots of recovery in the 1990s. C, more gardening. He thinks
:27:47. > :27:52.we're on the wrong path. Government should borrow money with
:27:52. > :27:55.interest rates at record lows. We have a shortage of houses and
:27:56. > :28:01.creaking infrastructure. We should borrow money now to invest for the
:28:01. > :28:06.future, which would increase growth and output. It would build assets
:28:06. > :28:11.for the country for the future. That view won over voters in France
:28:11. > :28:17.last weekend were President elect Francois Hollande has promised more
:28:17. > :28:23.spending and fewer hearts, to the horror of supply siders here. --
:28:23. > :28:28.fewer cuts. There is no easy way out of this, you cannot drink your
:28:28. > :28:32.way out of alcoholism, which is effectively the economic policy
:28:32. > :28:38.being put forward by the Labour Party in Britain and socialists on
:28:38. > :28:42.the Continent. These are the weighty issues of our age, and the
:28:42. > :28:46.search for growth is much harder than gardening.
:28:46. > :28:51.Joining us to debate how best to get the economy moving, Mark
:28:51. > :28:58.Littlewood, director general of the Institute of Economic Affairs, and
:28:58. > :29:04.Ann Pettifor, director of Prime Economics.
:29:04. > :29:11.Make your case for a stimulus. fact is that we have a crater at
:29:11. > :29:15.that has appeared in the economy of about �120 billion. This great big
:29:15. > :29:21.hole has emerged as a result of the financial crisis and the failure of
:29:21. > :29:24.the banking sector, nothing to do with government. The private
:29:24. > :29:29.finance sector crashed and the Government had to take on a lot of
:29:29. > :29:34.their liabilities. There is this great big hole and the Government
:29:34. > :29:39.is saying it is nothing to do with us. It is the equivalent of
:29:39. > :29:45.appeasement in the pre-war days. Thank goodness Churchill took a
:29:45. > :29:50.different strategy. We are going to leave this crater of unemployment
:29:50. > :29:57.and inactivity. Mr Sainsbury cannot get customers to walk through the
:29:57. > :30:01.door. How would you make stimulus? I thought your chart on business
:30:01. > :30:07.investment was very interesting and correct. The business sector does
:30:08. > :30:12.not have confidence, they are afraid. What would you do? Public
:30:12. > :30:18.investment would be brought in. We are amongst the slowest in the
:30:18. > :30:28.world when it comes to broadband. We need public investment, but also
:30:28. > :30:30.
:30:30. > :30:34.in housing. What would be wrong It goes to what Liam Fox was saying.
:30:34. > :30:39.I assume she thinks the biggest problem with the last Labour
:30:39. > :30:45.government was it did not spend enough. We have tested this policy
:30:45. > :30:50.to distraction. Austerity and trying to balance the books, I
:30:50. > :30:54.think it is a prerequisite for growth. Actually having a stable
:30:54. > :31:00.environment allows you to start making some reforms to help
:31:00. > :31:05.business in this country. Why is the economy not growing? Eric
:31:05. > :31:11.Pickles was rather in favour of what the coalition has done to this
:31:11. > :31:15.is business. It seems a lot of warm words. Cooler words about
:31:15. > :31:20.instructing businesses to work harder. What has the coalition done
:31:20. > :31:25.to make it easier to run a business? The reason the coalition
:31:25. > :31:30.cannot do anything, they are paralysed with the fact we have to
:31:30. > :31:36.balance the books. As if the budget of the Government is like the
:31:36. > :31:41.budget of you or I. No, it is certainly not like mine. The
:31:41. > :31:49.Government has already borrowed one trillion pounds. Under current
:31:49. > :31:55.spending plans, that rises to 1.5 trillion by 2016. You want to
:31:55. > :31:59.borrow even more? Yes. The Government is not like you. You
:31:59. > :32:03.cannot go to the Bank of England and asked the Bank of England to
:32:03. > :32:08.enter numbers into the computer and put it into your bank account but
:32:08. > :32:13.the Government can. Only for a certain time. We know what has
:32:13. > :32:20.happened with Spain, Greece and Italy. When the Government spends,
:32:20. > :32:25.it gets tax revenues and stops paying unemployment benefit. This
:32:25. > :32:30.is fantasists -- fantasy. Her what you want the Government to do?
:32:30. > :32:36.won the Government to go much faster on red tape, particularly
:32:36. > :32:40.employment law. That is irrelevant. The costs faced by the start-up of
:32:40. > :32:44.a small company and the risks of taking on new employees are
:32:45. > :32:53.extremely high. If you put a high price on anything it will consume
:32:53. > :32:58.less of it. Easier to fire people, that is austerity, isn't it?
:32:58. > :33:06.would get more people into work. Rather than being on the dole
:33:06. > :33:09.queues, they would be working. have the lowest taxes on employment
:33:09. > :33:19.across the cult status that the whole of the OECD. We have much
:33:19. > :33:21.
:33:21. > :33:26.lower unemployment benefit. -- the whole of the OECD. If you look at
:33:26. > :33:33.what Germany has done over the last 10 years, it has liberalised its
:33:33. > :33:40.employment law is enormously. -- at Lord's. It it has allowed people to
:33:40. > :33:45.be taken on for consultants. -- it has allowed. It has cut back on
:33:45. > :33:50.medical insurance which allowed for people to retire early. Germany
:33:50. > :33:59.went down a writ of liberalisation. They pay much higher taxes than we
:33:59. > :34:03.do. -- down the route. It is more expensive to hire a German worker
:34:03. > :34:09.and the taxes you pay on a German worker than a British worker. They
:34:09. > :34:15.pay more benefits as well. I am sure you are offering no more than
:34:15. > :34:21.blurred, sweat and tears. We would get people on the unemployment
:34:21. > :34:27.rolls into work, who are presently on the doll. I'm not sure that his
:34:27. > :34:32.blood, sweat and tears. Here is a thought of both of you. You are
:34:32. > :34:36.wanting to act on the site of demand by increasing it. You are
:34:36. > :34:42.acting on the supply side to make it more efficient. Why don't you do
:34:42. > :34:47.both? We do not need to do the supply side. Productivity is very
:34:47. > :34:52.low. We could improve that if we invested more in businesses and
:34:52. > :34:59.more in infrastructure, like broadband. This is a one-trick pony.
:34:59. > :35:04.There is already a fiscal stimulus. We have tried back to death. Why
:35:05. > :35:12.not tried to solve the problem at the other end? I tried to get you
:35:12. > :35:15.to get that and failed. -- together. You are watching the Sunday
:35:15. > :35:18.Politics. Coming up in 20 minutes: I will be looking at the week ahead
:35:18. > :35:28.with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics across
:35:28. > :35:31.
:35:31. > :35:38.Hello. Later in the show, as London prepares to Perret host to the
:35:39. > :35:48.world, what benefits to Britain and its foreign policy? -- play host.
:35:48. > :35:56.Here, with us for the next 20 minutes, our two guests. First this
:35:56. > :36:04.week assay a fond farewell to the local Accident and Emergency unit.
:36:04. > :36:11.-- say a fond farewell. One had been earmarked for closure. For an
:36:11. > :36:15.update, we are joined by our political correspondent. If the A&E
:36:15. > :36:19.and maternity services at St Hellier are earmarked for closure,
:36:19. > :36:24.could this pattern be repeated across other parts of the capital?
:36:24. > :36:28.This is indicative of what is happening across the whole capital.
:36:28. > :36:34.Health services are changing and a out changing radically. The NHS in
:36:34. > :36:39.London has to save �5 billion bid for 2016. The NHS is keen to change
:36:40. > :36:43.the way it delivers its care - more concentration on fewer and more
:36:43. > :36:49.specialist sites. If you specialise and put all the doctors in one area,
:36:49. > :36:54.you can treat patients better and get better outcomes. In south-west
:36:54. > :36:59.London, this week a panel of 60 people recommended St Hellier
:36:59. > :37:04.should lose its A&E and maternity services, instead becoming a
:37:04. > :37:09.planned centre for surgery - a centre of excellence. That clinical
:37:09. > :37:14.argument is all very well, you have the political argument, which is
:37:14. > :37:21.difficult for the Lib Dem Health Minister, Paul Burstow. He was born
:37:21. > :37:26.at St Hellier. On his website is a campaign about saving the hospital.
:37:26. > :37:32.Some people made by the clinical arguments but it is difficult to
:37:32. > :37:37.say to your constituents, I agree our local hospital and eat or
:37:37. > :37:42.maternity unit should go. Do you think we will get a case of, not in
:37:42. > :37:50.my backyard? I certainly do not think Paul Burstow will be the only
:37:50. > :37:56.MP with petitions on his website. In North West London, for example,
:37:56. > :38:02.there are plans to shut four out of nine Accident and Emergency units.
:38:02. > :38:07.Expect a lot of local campaigns. In 2010, when Andrew Lansley became
:38:07. > :38:13.Health Secretary, he said, I want an end to top down reorganisations
:38:13. > :38:17.and closures of A&Es. NHS London has gone back to the drawing board
:38:17. > :38:24.and we have bottom up closures. They are backed by clinical
:38:24. > :38:31.evidence but, if the local gospel is going to use -- lose its A and B
:38:31. > :38:35.or maternity, I suppose it does not matter much to you. -- A&E. Do you
:38:35. > :38:40.support the policy that local panels of clinicians and patients
:38:40. > :38:45.should be the ones deciding which services must close? It is the
:38:45. > :38:51.beginning of a long process which will take months and months. It is
:38:51. > :38:55.a good start. This panel is broad- based. Patience, lots of clinicians,
:38:55. > :39:02.local of 30s. It is the beginning of a process that will lead on to
:39:02. > :39:06.public consultation. -- local authorities. The Conservatives when
:39:06. > :39:10.they came into the election said we were not be backing closures of
:39:10. > :39:14.Accident and Emergency departments. What he actually said was there
:39:14. > :39:21.would be a moratorium on the way of people took stock to see the best
:39:21. > :39:25.way of dealing with this. It is clinician lead. There are good
:39:25. > :39:31.arguments around best. We can see reconfiguration so that have
:39:32. > :39:38.happened, which are working well and saving lives. We have to be
:39:38. > :39:41.objective. You will not fight any attempt to close, let's say
:39:41. > :39:46.maternity and Accident and Emergency services at Chelsea and
:39:46. > :39:50.Westminster Questor up you would not fight it, on that basis? I do
:39:50. > :39:55.not know. It is impossible territory. No MP would say they
:39:55. > :40:03.would not at least put the case for their local hospital. The need to
:40:03. > :40:11.listen of -- to what is being said by clinicians. You would support
:40:11. > :40:16.the idea of decentralisation. Let the people on the front line decide
:40:16. > :40:21.where resources should go. It did not include trade unionists or
:40:21. > :40:25.representatives. I have spoken to them. They say if you close
:40:26. > :40:30.Accident and Emergency at St Hellier, we will have to go
:40:30. > :40:37.elsewhere. It was made up of the public, Patients, local of
:40:37. > :40:43.authorities. In it did not include local trade unions. You cannot say
:40:43. > :40:48.it did not include local people. was not representative. It was a
:40:48. > :40:53.cuts exercise. Not just here, it was across London. Where David
:40:53. > :40:57.Cameron launched his health policy, we are told that Accident and
:40:57. > :41:03.Emergency is going. You are saying no services should be closed, even
:41:03. > :41:09.if they are deemed not to be working. I am saying, when you go
:41:09. > :41:14.through this exercise, we include everyone in the consultation. We
:41:14. > :41:18.listened to the clinicians and we got the best result. Paul Burstow
:41:18. > :41:27.is there Health Minister. I cannot see how he can remain as an Health
:41:27. > :41:31.Minister was launching a local campaign. When you mentioned the
:41:31. > :41:35.stroke and the major trauma consultation, some people are
:41:35. > :41:40.saying and making strong comments about this consultation, they said
:41:40. > :41:48.that would lead to hundreds of lives being lost the dog that has
:41:48. > :41:53.not happened. We have to recognise that claims about the previous
:41:53. > :41:58.reorganisations... Of the clinicians are saying, this is what
:41:58. > :42:03.the joint director of this exercise... What they are saying,
:42:03. > :42:10.they believe it could save hundreds of lives. One reason they give it
:42:10. > :42:14.is you cannot get the same level of expertise at weekends and out of
:42:14. > :42:19.hours. The reorganisation of Lord Darzi in the last government is
:42:19. > :42:23.nothing to do with this. We will be following this story. Along with
:42:23. > :42:26.other records due to be set in London this summer, thanks to the
:42:26. > :42:34.Olympics, the capital is due to host the larders meeting of heads
:42:34. > :42:39.of state in its history. -- the largest meeting. They were
:42:39. > :42:45.competing -- they will be competing not just on the field but on
:42:45. > :42:50.diplomacy as well. All the Olympic Games allowed the host nation - is
:42:51. > :42:57.again nation to sell an image of themselves to the world. -- at the
:42:57. > :43:02.host nation. China is not afraid to modernise. Beijing, 2008, gave a
:43:02. > :43:06.clear message that China had emerged as the superpower. This
:43:06. > :43:12.summer, can expect Britain to use the Olympics as a tour of its own
:43:12. > :43:17.foreign policy? It is a real opportunity for Britain. If you
:43:17. > :43:22.want to push foreign-policy and public diplomacy, you have to be
:43:22. > :43:26.liked, respected and trusted. I think that if these heads of state
:43:26. > :43:33.come here and see the sort of country we are - that we are fair
:43:34. > :43:38.and tolerant - they will go back with a good impression. Should
:43:38. > :43:43.Britain be doing more than simply buying some good whale? There are
:43:43. > :43:49.calls for the British government to ban the Olympic a fissions --
:43:49. > :43:53.officials linked to Syria and Bahrain. They are those accused of
:43:53. > :43:58.human rights abuses to pro- democracy campaigners. You have had
:43:58. > :44:04.the trial and the tension of many sporting athletes. Some are still
:44:04. > :44:08.in jail in Bahrain. That is clearly related. These people would be
:44:08. > :44:13.competing in these games were they not in prison. There has been
:44:13. > :44:20.called for Britain to exercise more power over countries that do not
:44:20. > :44:25.let females compete. In Saudi Arabia, there is segregation. Saudi
:44:25. > :44:32.women are not competing on level par let -- playing field. I do not
:44:32. > :44:36.think that Saudi Arabia should be allowed to compete in the Olympics.
:44:36. > :44:42.Is it really for Britain to dictate? Where do you draw the
:44:42. > :44:46.line? A lot of countries you do not approve of. We are not wild about
:44:46. > :44:50.human rights in China. There is serious abuse in plenty of
:44:50. > :44:55.countries of the freedoms we enjoyed in this country. If you
:44:55. > :45:00.start banning him from a country and him from that country and her
:45:00. > :45:04.from another country, you will just run into trouble and it will never
:45:04. > :45:12.end. Lest we forget, the rest of the world often has complaints to
:45:12. > :45:18.make about Britain. There has been speculation over boycotting London
:45:18. > :45:25.2012 over the use of the logo and the use of Dow Chemical as a
:45:25. > :45:30.sponsor. It killed -- it produced a chemical that killed thousands in
:45:30. > :45:38.the 1980s. The United States does not wish to be represented in a
:45:38. > :45:42.host country that is invading and subjugating another nation. During
:45:42. > :45:47.the Cold War, Russia and America led groups of countries in boycotts
:45:47. > :45:57.against each other's games. There is no indication yet that foreign
:45:57. > :46:00.
:46:00. > :46:04.policy will overshadow London 2012 The IOC has said the 2012 games
:46:04. > :46:07.should not be the forum to raise political issues but surely there
:46:07. > :46:13.is an opportunity to do that behind-the-scenes? Behind the
:46:14. > :46:18.scenes a lot of quiet diplomacy goes on. But once we sign up as a
:46:18. > :46:23.country to hosting the Olympic Games, the IOC makes the decisions
:46:23. > :46:28.about who can and cannot be there under their criteria. That does not
:46:28. > :46:32.stop people protesting at various things. I do not know where the
:46:32. > :46:37.Chinese are training, but some people may want to go along and
:46:37. > :46:42.protest peacefully. But it is an opportunity when we have all the
:46:42. > :46:47.heads of state here, and some of them will not stay very long, but
:46:47. > :46:53.with the sports ministers, a great deal of diplomacy goes on. What
:46:53. > :46:59.sort of level are we speaking about, is it terribly polite, or are real
:46:59. > :47:02.political issues chewed over? President Obama comes, the Prime
:47:02. > :47:07.Minister will use the opportunity to speak with him more seriously
:47:07. > :47:12.than some of the other leaders. But we're beginning to forget that this
:47:12. > :47:16.is about a big sporting occasion. The sports ministers will be there
:47:16. > :47:23.and when I was in Sydney, due spent a lot of time with the sports
:47:23. > :47:29.ministers. Hopefully when you're actually beating them on the field!
:47:29. > :47:34.A lot of that goes on, but as a country, what we're trying to show
:47:34. > :47:39.is that particularly in London, we are a diverse, tolerant community
:47:39. > :47:43.and people will go away with a good feeling. Most of the tourists, in
:47:43. > :47:48.reality, those who are coming to watch the Olympics are here to
:47:48. > :47:54.watch the sport. If they have a great sporting occasion, they will
:47:54. > :47:59.go home thinking that London is a great city. Do you think there is a
:47:59. > :48:03.worry, maybe it is something you would like to see, that some
:48:03. > :48:09.messages do get through? We saw footage from Syria and that is
:48:09. > :48:14.probably one of the most potent examples? Should Syrian officials
:48:14. > :48:18.becoming to the Olympic Games? only way we could stop the
:48:18. > :48:25.officials coming it is if they were already on our list of banned
:48:25. > :48:29.people. Zimbabwe is a good example. There is going to be a Zimbabwean
:48:29. > :48:34.team, but I will be watching carefully that there is not anyone
:48:34. > :48:39.from Zimbabwe who is not on the list. In order to stop them coming
:48:39. > :48:44.without doing that, it has to come through the United Nations. As a
:48:44. > :48:50.country, we cannot say that we're not letting the team from Bahrain
:48:50. > :48:55.in, because the IOC would not allow it. Some people do not realise how
:48:55. > :49:02.important the IOC is. It has observer status at the United
:49:02. > :49:09.Nations and it is almost treated like a small country. Let's look at
:49:09. > :49:12.another sporting event that is coming up, Euro 2012. The Sports
:49:12. > :49:18.Minister is considering boycotting games that are played in the
:49:18. > :49:24.Ukraine. Would you support that? That would be up to him, and he may
:49:24. > :49:27.well decide to do that. When I was Sports Minister, I did not want to
:49:27. > :49:33.meet anyone from China because I was very involved in the Tibet
:49:33. > :49:38.Campaign. But if he decides that, it is very different from calling
:49:38. > :49:43.for the England team not to go. There is a point where politics and
:49:43. > :49:49.sport should not crossover. Do you agree with these sentiments, that
:49:49. > :49:54.this is a public event? I agree with the point about constructive
:49:54. > :50:01.engagement in sports. But you have to draw the line in the sand. I was
:50:01. > :50:05.in favour of a boycott for South Africa because of apartheid. I did
:50:05. > :50:09.demonstrate and the Saudi princes did come last time as well. I would
:50:09. > :50:15.not allow them into the country because of the way which the
:50:15. > :50:20.discriminate on women and the way the execute people. It is up to the
:50:20. > :50:23.athletes to also take a moral position on this. In terms of
:50:23. > :50:29.boycotting sporting events during the apartheid era, a lot of
:50:29. > :50:35.pressure was brought to bear, because of that, so it can work.
:50:35. > :50:42.Kate Hoey is right. Saudi Arabia, that is against the IOC's own
:50:42. > :50:45.charter. They have a very clear point on sex discrimination and I
:50:45. > :50:52.know that they are working hard with the Saudi Arabians to bring
:50:52. > :50:57.Amex team. It is hard to draw the line on which human rights abuses
:50:57. > :51:00.to deal with. There are a lot of human rights being abused in a
:51:00. > :51:07.whole range of countries around the world and drawing the line is very
:51:07. > :51:13.difficult. We should probably take the line that the IOC decide and
:51:13. > :51:18.let the free press and free protest take hold. The London organising
:51:18. > :51:24.committee could do this, they could, or on the particular situation with
:51:24. > :51:34.the stadium, they could have been much tougher. In terms of who comes
:51:34. > :51:36.
:51:36. > :51:40.to the country, it is part of the UN and I was see decisions.
:51:40. > :51:44.Olympics have been commercialised. They have kudos out of this, and
:51:44. > :51:54.they're really exploiting people. What else has been happening, here
:51:54. > :51:56.
:51:56. > :52:01.is a flavour in 60 seconds? Is it au revoir entante cordiale.
:52:01. > :52:07.Francois Hollande took a swipe at Britain. The British have only paid
:52:07. > :52:12.attention to the interests of the City of London. Conspicuous by its
:52:12. > :52:18.absence from the Queen's Speech, at any mention of High-Speed Rail Two.
:52:18. > :52:24.Does this mean the project has been shunted into a siding? And a brand
:52:24. > :52:27.new strain of omnishambles crossed the river. Boris Johnston announced
:52:27. > :52:32.his brand new it line-up of advisers but failed to realise that
:52:32. > :52:37.Stephen Greenhalgh could not take up the post of deputy for policing
:52:37. > :52:42.while still serving as a councillor. Stephen Greenhalgh has announced he
:52:42. > :52:48.will be standing down as a councillor. And workers whose jobs
:52:48. > :52:58.are under threat gathered in London at a protest rally. An estimated
:52:58. > :53:00.
:53:00. > :53:05.126 people could lose their jobs if Remploy factories are closed.
:53:05. > :53:10.What about Remploy? Apparently you met with some of the employees
:53:10. > :53:16.earlier this week? Will they get a last-minute reprieve? There are
:53:16. > :53:23.very distressed about their future. They hope so. Popular support has
:53:23. > :53:28.been enormous, 100,000 people have signed the petitions. I hope the
:53:28. > :53:34.Government will think again. this cost-effective when all of the
:53:34. > :53:39.factories lost money last year? was on the first committee it for
:53:39. > :53:44.discrimination against disabled people. I am an integrationist. I
:53:44. > :53:49.want them to be in mainstream work, but it always is a role for support
:53:49. > :53:53.in employment, and that is what Remploy does. They have not been
:53:53. > :53:57.successful in the commercial world because they will always require
:53:57. > :54:02.some subsidy. But also because they have been badly managed and the
:54:02. > :54:07.workers have not been listened to. It could work if the Government
:54:07. > :54:10.gives it a chance. Was it helpful when Iain Duncan Smith said that
:54:10. > :54:16.disabled workers at Remploy factories are not doing any work,
:54:16. > :54:22.they are sitting around making cups of tea? The Secretary of State has
:54:22. > :54:26.said that he was misrepresented. I am sure that is right. He has said
:54:26. > :54:31.he was misrepresented and he is committed to the employment of
:54:32. > :54:38.disabled people. Any money saved in this would be reinvested helping
:54:38. > :54:42.disabled people into work. We are at a crossroads on the few about
:54:42. > :54:46.how disabled people are employed. This review was conducted by one of
:54:46. > :54:53.the leading lights in the disability movement in the last 20
:54:53. > :54:56.years. All the major disability movement say that the way forward
:54:56. > :55:03.is to employ disabled people. He said that more than anything he
:55:03. > :55:06.wanted to be supported to work in the mainstream. Even if you are
:55:06. > :55:11.pursuing that policy, these organisations have all said that
:55:11. > :55:20.you would not do it now with high levels of unemployment. Thank you
:55:21. > :55:23.to Jane Ellison and John McDonnell. Back to Andrew with the week ahead.
:55:23. > :55:25.So, with more juicy Leveson revelations coming, the Police
:55:25. > :55:28.Federation welcoming, in the hostile sense of the word, Home
:55:28. > :55:31.Secretary Theresa May to their conference, and the prospect of a
:55:31. > :55:41.feisty Prime Minister's Questions, there's much to discuss in the Week
:55:41. > :55:50.
:55:50. > :55:56.A bad week for the Tories, and maybe a bad week for Labour with Mr
:55:56. > :56:01.Campbell appearing. We may get to learn about the relationships
:56:01. > :56:05.between News International and the Labour government. Both sides are
:56:05. > :56:09.embroiled in his game. The only people who are sitting pretty are
:56:09. > :56:14.the Liberal Democrats. Presumably they could not be bothered with
:56:14. > :56:22.that. They could not have got the access if they wanted it. Labour
:56:22. > :56:27.have had many more years to get embroiled with its -- with senior
:56:27. > :56:34.News International executives and the murdereds. The Tories had only
:56:34. > :56:38.been in for a year when this started. The difference for them is
:56:38. > :56:45.that it is history, whereas Mr Cameron is a living, breathing
:56:45. > :56:51.Prime Minister. Tony Blair did not use electronic mail, he did not use
:56:51. > :56:54.a mobile phone, there are no trails. It is a more immediate issue for
:56:54. > :57:00.the Government and Labour. But I get the sense that the Government
:57:00. > :57:05.is more relaxed about the Leveson enquiry than it was a week ago,
:57:05. > :57:09.partly because Rebekah Brooks did not reveal anything devastating.
:57:09. > :57:16.The spotlight is shifting to Labour with the likes of Jack Straw and
:57:16. > :57:22.Alastair Campbell going before Leveson. The event of the week was
:57:22. > :57:28.at weed from the editor of the Telegraph, who said that Leveson
:57:28. > :57:34.was the 149th most visited story on his website. Not many people are
:57:34. > :57:41.interested. Here is the big issue of the day. What is a pyjama party?
:57:41. > :57:47.Have you been to one? I am not sure. I was going to propose that we have
:57:47. > :57:50.won this evening. I hope it would involve a midnight feast.
:57:50. > :57:58.understanding is that the best parties are ones which you do not
:57:58. > :58:02.wear pyjamas. This is Sunday, daytime. We will move along. I was
:58:02. > :58:07.listening to his speech yesterday that Ed Miliband was giving and he
:58:07. > :58:13.said, all of us were too close to the media. I think this will be an
:58:14. > :58:18.issue for all of us, and that is key. You say it is history, but
:58:18. > :58:22.when Ed Miliband says that we need to challenge Margaret, their people
:58:22. > :58:30.in the shadow cabinet now who were saying, what are you doing? There
:58:30. > :58:34.was that famous memo. I disagree that this is going to go away. We
:58:34. > :58:41.will open a Pandora's box. When Jeremy Hunt comes to the inquiry,
:58:41. > :58:44.we may have a Ministerial report on that. There may be a police report.
:58:44. > :58:54.Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson will be going to court and that
:58:54. > :58:58.
:58:58. > :59:02.could bring about more revelations. The police, the Home Secretary will
:59:02. > :59:07.get the usual reaction from the Police Federation. I do not know
:59:07. > :59:13.why they bother going to the conference. As the Government has a
:59:13. > :59:17.serious police problem? I do not think they do. If the Police
:59:17. > :59:23.Federation are to be believed, it was a sizable protest and that is
:59:23. > :59:27.never comfortable experience. But in terms of public support, the
:59:27. > :59:32.public are looking at what the police are complaining about and
:59:32. > :59:42.they are seeing people retiring at the age of 50 on massive pensions.
:59:42. > :59:49.
:59:49. > :59:57.I have been surprised Papa's two years that the media has not
:59:57. > :00:05.focused more on the Government's policing policies. -- for beat last
:00:05. > :00:11.two years. The test now is, not the policy, I have never doubted that
:00:11. > :00:18.radicalism when it comes to intent and policy in any area. It is the
:00:18. > :00:24.tenacity and determination. If they see it through? Absolutely. When
:00:24. > :00:28.you are trying to do big fish and reform alongside massive cuts, it
:00:28. > :00:32.can be very dangerous and very explosive - particularly if you do
:00:32. > :00:38.not take the professional institutions with youth - as was
:00:38. > :00:44.the problem with the NHS. And we have Prime Minister's Questions on
:00:44. > :00:48.Wednesday. We have one this Wednesday, one the following
:00:48. > :00:58.Wednesday and not another one Aberu Kebede for a while. They have got
:00:58. > :01:00.
:01:00. > :01:05.yet more holidays coming out. -- coming up for a while. I do not
:01:05. > :01:13.think the Sunday Times you guv poll asked that question. They have both
:01:13. > :01:19.got negative ratings. -- YouGov. The rating of Mr Miliband is less
:01:19. > :01:24.than a -- negative than that of David Cameron. In if you dig into
:01:24. > :01:28.underlying numbers, as to whether they regard him as good in a crisis
:01:28. > :01:33.or whether they would prefer him has Prime Minister, his ratings are
:01:34. > :01:43.lower than they have ever been. There is still a lot of confidence
:01:43. > :01:47.in Number 10. In 2014/2015, when the public shifts its personal
:01:47. > :01:51.choice of Ed Miliband or David Cameron as Prime Minister, they
:01:52. > :01:56.will choose David Cameron. We were having a very different
:01:56. > :02:02.conversation a few months ago about Ed Miliband. He has not changed
:02:02. > :02:07.much but he has earned the right to be heard now. Was tea is rising,
:02:07. > :02:17.David Cameron, the infallible leader, does not seem to have as
:02:17. > :02:18.
:02:18. > :02:24.much kudos. -- whilst he is rising. Is this a mid-term blip? I suspect
:02:24. > :02:30.it is more of a mid-term blip. The Government can do something about
:02:30. > :02:38.it, which would take the form of a reshuffle in the next few weeks.
:02:38. > :02:44.need to go and pack our pyjamas! I'll be back tomorrow on BBC Two at