:00:38. > :00:41.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. He is one of the
:00:41. > :00:44.four men who make all the big decisions in the coalition. The
:00:44. > :00:49.others, of course, you know well: David Cameron, Nick Clegg, George
:00:49. > :00:52.Osborne. Today, as the British economy struggles to escape the
:00:52. > :00:55.recession, and the eurozone stares into the abyss, we talk to the
:00:55. > :01:00.fourth man, Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander, about the
:01:00. > :01:06.economy, tax and the coalition. David Cameron and his Argentinean
:01:06. > :01:08.counterpart went head to head over the Falklands this week. Respect MP
:01:09. > :01:14.George Galloway and Defence Committee Tory MP Colonel Bob
:01:14. > :01:17.Stewart go to battle over the same issue.
:01:17. > :01:20.And our political panel of the best and the brightest, here every week
:01:20. > :01:25.to analyse British politics in The Week Ahead, and tweeting with the
:01:25. > :01:30.economy of a Jimmy Carr tax return throughout the programme. He in
:01:31. > :01:33.London this week, plans to sell off police stations and close front
:01:33. > :01:40.counters. Is getting rid of police buildings
:01:40. > :01:44.the only way to maintain police numbers? -- in London this week.
:01:44. > :01:50.All that to come in the next hour, but first the news with Sophie Long.
:01:50. > :01:54.Good morning. Hundreds of thousands of young people could lose their
:01:54. > :01:57.housing benefit as part of a new welfare crackdown. In a speech
:01:57. > :02:02.tomorrow, the Prime Minister is expected to outline plans for
:02:02. > :02:05.further cuts to be imposed after the next election. Mr Cameron has
:02:05. > :02:08.told a newspaper this morning that housing benefit for the under-25s
:02:08. > :02:12.was costing nearly �2 billion a year, which he described as a
:02:12. > :02:18.fortune. The Archbishop of Canterbury has
:02:18. > :02:21.dismissed David Cameron's Big Society as aspirational waffle. Dr
:02:21. > :02:23.Rowan Williams, said it was a ploy to conceal a deeply damaging
:02:23. > :02:26.withdrawal of the state from its responsibilities to the most
:02:26. > :02:29.vulnerable. His comments are to be published in a new book being
:02:29. > :02:31.prepared ahead of his retirement in December. But speaking on the BBC's
:02:31. > :02:38.Andrew Marr Show, the International Development Secretary, Andrew
:02:38. > :02:43.Mitchell, dismissed the criticism. We do not always explain it as well
:02:43. > :02:50.as we should, but it is about crowding against all parts of
:02:50. > :02:55.society, the government, the voluntary sector will, -- the
:02:55. > :03:00.voluntary sector, civil society, to tackle all these endemic problems.
:03:00. > :03:03.The Archbishop and I will be announcing this week a joint effort
:03:03. > :03:08.between the government and all faiths on tackling poverty and the
:03:08. > :03:12.poorest parts of the country. We have been working on this for the
:03:12. > :03:15.last year. 1,200 branches of NatWest, RBS and
:03:15. > :03:18.Ulster Bank are opening for the first time on a Sunday as the bank
:03:18. > :03:20.clears a massive backlog of payments caused by a computer
:03:20. > :03:24.glitch. Millions of business and personal customers have been
:03:24. > :03:29.affected, as Andy Moore reports. With one of Britain's biggest banks
:03:29. > :03:32.still struggling to get its systems working properly, some estate
:03:32. > :03:37.agents are fearful housing chains could collapse because one buyer
:03:37. > :03:43.cannot complete. This man is not even a NatWest customer, but he
:03:43. > :03:49.says he is losing money. If we do not get paid commission, we cannot
:03:49. > :03:53.run at the business or pay our bills. Then there is the sales
:03:53. > :03:58.people, they do not live on fresh air. I have a responsibility to pay
:03:58. > :04:03.them. NatWest says all mortgage completion payments have been
:04:03. > :04:06.processed and it will continue to make sure that is the case. Online
:04:06. > :04:16.make sure that is the case. Online comment posted on NatWest's own
:04:16. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:30.website give a flavour of the NatWest cannot say when the backlog
:04:30. > :04:35.of problems will finally be cleared, but it is promising that no one
:04:35. > :04:38.will lose money, and that applies to anyone who has been affected,
:04:38. > :04:41.not just its own customers. The result of Egypt's first
:04:41. > :04:44.democratic presidential election is due to be announced this afternoon,
:04:44. > :04:46.three days late. Both candidates have already claimed victory and
:04:46. > :04:53.their supporters have started gathering in Tahrir Square in Cairo
:04:53. > :05:00.for the official declaration. England take on Italy tonight in
:05:00. > :05:04.the quarterfinals of Euro 2012 in Ukraine. The manager, Roy Hodgson,
:05:04. > :05:06.has described the match as a 50-50 game. Victory would take England
:05:06. > :05:11.through to the semifinals of a major international championship
:05:11. > :05:17.for the first time since 1996. That's it. There is more news here
:05:17. > :05:22.on BBC One just after 5:30. Andrew. Now, how to get the UK economy back
:05:22. > :05:25.on track? According to one former Chief Secretary to the Treasury,
:05:25. > :05:31.the Liberal Democrat MP David Laws, more radical spending and tax cuts
:05:31. > :05:34.are the answer. Music to the ears of most Tory MPs but not, I suspect,
:05:34. > :05:38.to his own party. Mr Laws says the share of the economy accounted for
:05:38. > :05:41.by the state is out of kilter with the amount of tax the public are
:05:41. > :05:45.willing to pay. And if last week's shenanigans are anything to go by,
:05:45. > :05:48.some very famous people in the economy do not want to pay very
:05:48. > :05:51.much tax at all. Mr Laws' place at the forefront of the coalition was
:05:51. > :05:55.taken by another Liberal Democrat MP, Danny Alexander. We will be
:05:55. > :05:57.talking to him in just a moment. But for those of you who know only
:05:57. > :06:02.a little about him, here is a little background information.
:06:02. > :06:06.Danny Alexander is the quintessential coalition politician.
:06:06. > :06:09.He was Nick Clegg's Chief of Staff in the run up to the totemic 2010
:06:09. > :06:13.election, and as a key Lib Dem negotiator in the aftermath of the
:06:14. > :06:16.election, he was there at the very birth of the coalition. As Chief
:06:16. > :06:22.Secretary to the Treasury, he is responsible for public spending,
:06:22. > :06:25.central to the coalition's purpose. And along with David Cameron,
:06:25. > :06:28.George Osborne and Nick Clegg, he is a member of the Quad, who sign
:06:28. > :06:32.off all important decisions, making Danny Alexander one of the most
:06:32. > :06:40.powerful politicians in the country. And he joins us now for the Sunday
:06:40. > :06:44.interview. Good morning. Thank you. Was it a
:06:44. > :06:49.mistake for the Prime Minister to single out Jimmy Carr? The issue of
:06:49. > :06:54.Jimmy Carr's tax affairs has been getting widespread coverage in the
:06:54. > :06:58.media. The Prime Minister in Mexico was responding to those reports.
:06:58. > :07:03.But as the Treasury minister I would not going to the details of
:07:03. > :07:08.any individual's tax affairs. We have taxpayer confidentiality in
:07:08. > :07:13.this country. But I agree with the Prime Minister and I have said so
:07:13. > :07:16.on a number of occasions, that the kind of aggressive tax avoidance
:07:16. > :07:20.that has been widely reported over the course of this week and which
:07:20. > :07:25.the Government has been dealing with since we came into office is
:07:25. > :07:29.something that has to be crack down on. In these difficult times for
:07:29. > :07:37.the economy, we have to make sure that everyone is paying their fair
:07:37. > :07:41.share. Was it morally repugnant? think tax-evasion, aggressive tax
:07:41. > :07:47.avoidance is morally repugnant. evasion is illegal, but tax
:07:47. > :07:51.avoidance is not, so is it morally repugnant? We are speaking about
:07:51. > :07:56.schemes that are set up within the letter of the law at one particular
:07:56. > :08:02.moment, but schemes which are set up purely with reducing one
:08:02. > :08:09.person's tax bill. I understand that, but is it morally repugnant?
:08:09. > :08:14.Yes, but what is the consequence of that behaviour? These schemes save
:08:14. > :08:20.wealthy people many tens of millions of pound in tax. They are
:08:20. > :08:27.paid for by everyone else. It we could narrow the tax gap in the
:08:27. > :08:34.country, things would be better. The working people in the country
:08:34. > :08:38.are paying the difference. One way the wealthy would have to pay at
:08:38. > :08:44.even a minimum amount of tax, would be, regardless of the sophisticated
:08:44. > :08:49.accountants that they can afford to employ. Nick Clegg called it the
:08:49. > :08:53.tycoon tax, what happened to that? There are a number of tax reliefs
:08:53. > :08:58.in the tax system, things like interest payments on things like
:08:59. > :09:04.business investments and so on. These things were uncapped. People
:09:04. > :09:10.could use them to the maximum. The only relief that remains uncapped
:09:10. > :09:15.now his charitable donations, which we changed our the on. But there is
:09:15. > :09:19.still not a minimum amount of tax that people should pay regardless
:09:19. > :09:24.of to the accountants they employ, correct? In the British tax system,
:09:24. > :09:29.the consequence of capping releases the Sen, but you are moving on to
:09:29. > :09:35.speak about the way in which rules can be exploited by people...
:09:35. > :09:42.are saying it does not matter because they pay and minimum amount.
:09:42. > :09:48.You proposed this, or Nick Clegg bid. Why did it not make it?
:09:48. > :09:52.cat has the effect of insuring that people cannot reduce their income
:09:52. > :09:56.tax bill beyond a certain level. For all the leaves except
:09:56. > :10:01.charitable giving, where people are free to give as much as they want
:10:01. > :10:06.to charity, for all those other reliefs, they are limited to 25 %
:10:06. > :10:11.of someone's income. So if someone makes substantial donations to
:10:11. > :10:16.charity, which most people would agree is a worthwhile thing to do,
:10:16. > :10:19.they can reduce their tax bill. use saying that there is now a
:10:19. > :10:25.minimum amount of tax that wealthy people should pay excluding
:10:25. > :10:30.charitable reductions? What is it? I am saying is that the cap on and
:10:30. > :10:36.cat release means that 25 % of someone's income can be set against
:10:36. > :10:40.those reliefs. They have to pay tax on the remainder of that. I cannot
:10:40. > :10:48.set a minimum rate because people can use those reliefs in different
:10:48. > :10:54.ways. There is an important other element to this. In the Budget we
:10:54. > :10:58.also announced a general anti- avoidance rule. The purpose of that
:10:58. > :11:01.is to greet the taxman one step ahead of the tax avoiders, do have
:11:01. > :11:06.a simple rule that allows the taxman to close down schemes
:11:06. > :11:12.immediately, rather than go through illegal changes like we had in the
:11:12. > :11:17.past. THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE I understand that.
:11:17. > :11:22.I am trying to establish that the tax has not been introduced. Let's
:11:22. > :11:29.look at the public reaction to the Budget. This is net satisfaction
:11:29. > :11:38.with the Chancellor. In December it was only minus 7%. For a Chancellor,
:11:38. > :11:43.that is not bad. By April, it had gone to minus 30 %. Why was the
:11:43. > :11:47.budget of 2012 such a political car-crash? It is inevitable in very
:11:47. > :11:52.difficult economic times that this country has been experiencing that
:11:52. > :11:58.as a government we are having to take very difficult decisions,
:11:58. > :12:02.decisions that affect everyone in the country. As Chief Secretary, my
:12:02. > :12:07.responsibility, particularly in reducing public expenditure...
:12:07. > :12:13.is not the reason, is it? That means that when we are seeking to
:12:13. > :12:17.make significant changes in the tax system, as we were by reducing the
:12:17. > :12:20.burden on working people, the largest ever increase in the
:12:20. > :12:24.personal allowance for income tax, the biggest tax cut for a
:12:24. > :12:28.generation, we have to make difficult decisions elsewhere to
:12:28. > :12:34.get the money to pay for that. There is no such thing as a free
:12:34. > :12:40.tax cut. That explains some of the public reaction. The Chancellor was
:12:40. > :12:44.in America in the run-up to the Budget. You were left in charge.
:12:44. > :12:50.Were you not worried about the dangers of the pasty tax, the
:12:50. > :12:57.granny tax, the caravan tax, the charity tax. Did you not feel, hold
:12:57. > :13:02.on? On all those things, except the age-related allowance, which is an
:13:02. > :13:06.important measure to make the tax system fairer, on those other
:13:06. > :13:10.things, the VAT changes and charitable giving, we said we were
:13:10. > :13:15.going to consult on those arrangements. That was part of the
:13:15. > :13:20.announcement. Did you not think that this was trouble? You were
:13:20. > :13:24.there, as he was not. In order to be the principal thing we wanted to
:13:24. > :13:29.do in the Budget, at to deliver the largest increase in the income tax
:13:29. > :13:33.personal allowance, Abbate Liberal Democrat goal that we sit in the
:13:33. > :13:37.manifesto, something that I am very strongly in favour of, we had to
:13:37. > :13:42.make difficult decisions. I knew these were things that were
:13:42. > :13:48.difficult, but in order to do something that was very important,
:13:48. > :13:53.hard, playing by the rules, are to have more money in their pockets,
:13:53. > :13:57.we had to make difficult choices. The Prime Minister has said today
:13:57. > :14:04.that you terms are OK, because when the facts change, see changes his
:14:04. > :14:09.mind. When it came to the caravan tax are the static caravan tax,
:14:09. > :14:15.what actual facts changed? listen to the alternative proposals
:14:15. > :14:20.that were put forward by the industries. In the case of the
:14:20. > :14:24.pasty tax, an alternative proposal was put forward by the industry,
:14:24. > :14:29.which we listen to. We said that we wanted to consult with those
:14:29. > :14:36.affected. We wanted to listen to industry, to the people affected to
:14:36. > :14:41.see if there was a different way of achieving the objectives. The truth
:14:41. > :14:46.is it was the weight of public opinion, let's be honest, they were
:14:46. > :14:51.deeply unpopular? You were on the wrong end of the opinion polls?
:14:51. > :14:55.charitable giving, we listen to the reaction of charities in particular
:14:55. > :14:58.which felt that this sent the wrong signal. I think we made the right
:14:58. > :15:08.decision and I do not think you should be criticising us for
:15:08. > :15:11.
:15:11. > :15:15.listening. I am trying to establish When you came to power in 2010, you
:15:15. > :15:25.said it would take five years of austerity to septet the public
:15:25. > :15:33.
:15:33. > :15:39.finances. Let's look at what the senior civil servant is saying.
:15:39. > :15:43.Austerity until 2020 is possible? We have set out the plans that we
:15:43. > :15:49.did in November in response to the changes in the economic forecast
:15:49. > :15:54.and the OBR's view about the spare capacity in the economy. We set out
:15:54. > :16:02.further plans. Is he right? That is a consequence of thinking about
:16:02. > :16:08.what would happen what if those people who tell as we are going too
:16:08. > :16:11.fast tell us. He said there is a mass at the mine to do and it's
:16:11. > :16:18.maybe a ten-year programme. It is a simple question, is he right or
:16:18. > :16:23.wrong. Those plans go through until 2017. That is the right time table.
:16:23. > :16:27.People who tell as we are going too far, too fast, means they want more
:16:27. > :16:32.cuts, deeper cuts over a longer period of time. If you listen to
:16:32. > :16:37.those people, that is the consequence you would get.
:16:37. > :16:41.today's Sunday Telegraph, David Laws says public spending should be
:16:41. > :16:47.cut to 35% of Mattal income. There you agree? If you look back over
:16:47. > :16:52.the decades you see across governments and different parties
:16:52. > :16:58.you see the amount in the economy taken up by public expenditure has
:16:58. > :17:04.hovered around 40%. It has been a long time since it was 35%. Do you
:17:04. > :17:09.agree? I think around 40% is the right range to be looking at. It is
:17:09. > :17:13.only in the last few years we have seen it rising towards 50%, as it
:17:13. > :17:17.did in Gordon Brown's ears. That is why we are having to take so many
:17:17. > :17:24.difficult decisions in order to make sure this country can pay its
:17:24. > :17:29.way in the world. You said 40% rather than 35. Mr Lawes is not the
:17:29. > :17:34.only person seeking larger cuts. The Prime Minister is considering
:17:34. > :17:38.scrapping housing benefit for those under 25. This is it the
:17:38. > :17:42.Conservatives won an overall majority after the next election.
:17:42. > :17:46.Would you consider doing something like that? The Prime Minister is
:17:46. > :17:52.completely free to set out his own thing. I'm relaxed about him doing
:17:52. > :17:58.that. There is a debate about the future of the welfare state. We you
:17:58. > :18:04.consider it? As a Government we have set out already the most
:18:04. > :18:08.radical welfare reforms system of any Government. It will be a total
:18:08. > :18:12.transformation in the way our welfare system works. We have taken
:18:12. > :18:18.major decisions, including housing benefit by younger people. I think
:18:18. > :18:22.we should let those reforms bed in. In respect of younger people, the
:18:22. > :18:28.biggest priority is how do we get those young people into training,
:18:28. > :18:32.education and work, so we do not repeat the mistakes made in the
:18:32. > :18:35.1980s so young people are blighted by long periods of unemployment.
:18:35. > :18:40.am not sure if he would consider doing what the Prime Minister is
:18:40. > :18:46.proposing or not, yes or no? think there needs to be a debate, I
:18:46. > :18:51.will not react to the proposals. The welfare system we need to have
:18:51. > :18:55.is one that strongly incentivise is people to go to work, but his
:18:55. > :18:59.compassionate to those who are genuinely needy in our society.
:18:59. > :19:04.understand that, I am just trying to find out if you agree with the
:19:04. > :19:10.Prime Minister or not. Let's come on to the euro. The consensus now
:19:10. > :19:15.in this country and in the content -- Continent is that the euro works
:19:15. > :19:22.only if there is a fiscal union. Do you agree? We need to have much
:19:22. > :19:29.stronger integration, for example eurobond. Then these to be much
:19:29. > :19:32.closer integration fiscally in order to make it a success. When
:19:32. > :19:37.you were head of communications for Britain and Europe, the pressure
:19:37. > :19:47.group that tried to get Britain to join the euro, you were pushing for
:19:47. > :19:48.
:19:48. > :19:52.us to join the euro. Each country's level of public spending and
:19:52. > :19:59.taxation is entirely their own business. Were you inaccurate or
:19:59. > :20:04.wrong? I do not remember that. people argued against the single
:20:04. > :20:09.currency, you said, we do not eat a fiscal union. Let me answer the
:20:09. > :20:13.question. As I set at the time, we wanted Britain to join if the
:20:13. > :20:17.economic conditions were right. They were not right to join and
:20:17. > :20:25.Britain is benefiting from having the flexibility of managing our own
:20:25. > :20:30.money. The ability is there. think it is quite important, Mr
:20:30. > :20:36.Alexander, because I listen to you on authority and you said, your
:20:36. > :20:40.organisation, a single currency does not need a physical union, now
:20:40. > :20:45.you say it does. The proposals on the table in the euro-zone at the
:20:45. > :20:49.moment are not about countries taking control over each other's
:20:49. > :20:56.taxing and spending. It is about common Deposit Insurance or bangs
:20:56. > :21:00.in the euro-zone. And submitting your budget to Brussels. We already
:21:00. > :21:08.have that. There is already a process of surveillance over
:21:08. > :21:13.budgets. We enter into it on a voluntary basis. We make our own
:21:13. > :21:18.decisions about our budget. What I am saying is proposals about a
:21:18. > :21:22.banking union, they are not about countries taking over one another's
:21:22. > :21:26.taxing and spending. We are now talking about monetary union as
:21:26. > :21:30.well. You were wrong to want Britain to join the euro and you
:21:30. > :21:34.were wrong to say it did not require fiscal union, can we agree
:21:34. > :21:39.to that? I was right to argue we should only join if the economic
:21:39. > :21:44.conditions are right. It is the strength of this country we are not
:21:44. > :21:48.in the Europe. Contrary to what you wanted at the time. The economic
:21:48. > :21:53.conditions were not right and we are benefiting because we have the
:21:53. > :21:57.flexibility that other countries in the euro-zone do not have. Are you
:21:57. > :22:02.prepared to rule out joining the euro for us long as you have a
:22:02. > :22:07.political career? Do you have it out? Do you look out joining the
:22:07. > :22:13.euro? We have as a Government ruled out joining the euro in this
:22:13. > :22:17.Parliament. Just this Parliament? cannot for see what will happen in
:22:17. > :22:22.20 years' time. But for a considerable period to come up we
:22:22. > :22:27.need the flexibility we have. you do not rule it out in 20 years'
:22:27. > :22:32.time and the consequence would be that if we were to join in 10 or 20
:22:32. > :22:36.years' time, we would have to join a full-blooded fiscal union. You do
:22:36. > :22:40.not rule that out? On the current evidence I cannot foresee
:22:40. > :22:45.circumstances in the period that we have clear information for it when
:22:45. > :22:51.Britain would want to join the euro or at when I would want to advocate
:22:51. > :22:57.it. Kenya for see economic circumstances in 20 years' time any
:22:57. > :23:02.better than I can? We have got no plans to join the euro, I have not
:23:02. > :23:06.got plans to argue for us to join the euro, but I want to defend the
:23:06. > :23:10.-- British economy from the problems that are happening in the
:23:10. > :23:15.euro-zone. That is why we have taken so many decisions to protect
:23:15. > :23:19.our country's fiscal position. Danny Alexander, thank you.
:23:19. > :23:22.According to the front page of the Sunday Times ministers are worried
:23:22. > :23:27.Argentina may use the London Olympics to stage a protest over
:23:27. > :23:33.the Falkland Islands. It is 30 years since the war, but attention
:23:33. > :23:39.has been brewing for months. White is a conflict fought 30 years
:23:39. > :23:45.ago, 8000 miles away, still making headlines today? First of all,
:23:45. > :23:50.there are those sounds and images the country will never forget.
:23:50. > :23:57.not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid, but I counted them
:23:57. > :24:00.all out and back. The white flag is flying over Stanley. We should
:24:00. > :24:08.rejoice at that news and congratulate our forces and the
:24:08. > :24:13.Marines. He saved Mrs Thatcher's reputation and it set up a mood of
:24:13. > :24:19.euphoria among the British public. It was accompanied by economic
:24:19. > :24:23.growth, a boom period, so it seemed to symbolise a new, emergent
:24:23. > :24:28.Britain. Then there is the fact that modern day leaders still quite
:24:28. > :24:31.like rattling their Sabres, which we saw when David Cameron bumped
:24:31. > :24:38.into Argentina's President, Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, at
:24:38. > :24:42.this week's G20 summit. 15 years after the Falklands War we had much
:24:42. > :24:47.more harmonious relationships with Argentina than we do 30 years after.
:24:48. > :24:53.It is not just about the close as to the war. Argentina made a
:24:53. > :24:55.conscious decision took up the ante on this issue. While the
:24:55. > :25:05.Argentinians say what was provocative was sending Prince
:25:05. > :25:05.
:25:05. > :25:10.William on patrol at earlier this year. The economy of those islands
:25:10. > :25:14.is now more than penguins and squid. British companies are investigating
:25:14. > :25:20.the size of the nearby its oil reserves which could earn islanders
:25:20. > :25:25.more than �100 billion in the coming decades. Finally it is what
:25:25. > :25:29.the fork and say about the state of modern Britain, especially our
:25:29. > :25:33.Millichip. Protecting the islands cost less than half of 1% of the
:25:33. > :25:37.defence budget. Some veterans of the conflict are worried. We have
:25:37. > :25:42.got our guard up, so we are protecting the Falklands well at
:25:42. > :25:47.the moment, but it depends on the Mount Pleasant airfield. I could
:25:47. > :25:51.sit down and write a plan of how to capture that. Once that is cut to,
:25:51. > :25:56.the only way to take it back is to get aircraft carriers. Until we
:25:56. > :26:00.have got that, we could not recapture the Falkland Islands.
:26:00. > :26:04.will be hearing more from the small islands. They already seem more
:26:04. > :26:09.British than we do, but next year they will hold a referendum on
:26:09. > :26:13.whether to stay that way. I am joined by the Respect MP
:26:13. > :26:21.George Galloway and the Conservative MP Bob Stewart who
:26:21. > :26:25.sits on the Defence Select Committee. Bob Stewart, this week
:26:25. > :26:31.David Cameron said he walked away from the Argentine President.
:26:31. > :26:34.Should this be our default position when it comes to the Falklands?
:26:34. > :26:39.fact is the Falkland Islands do not want to be anything but British and
:26:39. > :26:43.that is clear. We should not talk to Argentina about the future?
:26:43. > :26:47.There is no reason why we should not top, but they must not be
:26:48. > :26:52.impossible. The islanders are holding their own ballot and I have
:26:52. > :26:57.been there recently and I know how they feel. They want to be left
:26:57. > :27:02.alone and to govern themselves. should not talk to buy his diaries
:27:02. > :27:11.about the future of the islands? Absolutely, that is not negotiable.
:27:11. > :27:14.It is silly. Politics is about negotiation, ongoing debate. If
:27:14. > :27:19.one-man lived on an island, you would not say that one man had the
:27:19. > :27:25.sovereignty over that island. It is the British Government's decision
:27:26. > :27:29.about what to do over the islands. 8000 miles away, we are almost
:27:29. > :27:35.bankrupt and you will not even talk to the people who say the islands
:27:35. > :27:45.are theirs. White top to people who want one thing and they do not
:27:45. > :27:47.
:27:47. > :27:51.agree. We cannot even defend these islands. If Argentina invaded,
:27:51. > :27:55.without an aircraft carrier, we could not fight them. Let's talk to
:27:55. > :28:01.them and share the sovereignty. Let's be clear, Argentina should
:28:01. > :28:05.not invade. This is a matter of self-determination. I have worked
:28:05. > :28:10.for the United Nations. I agree people to decide what they want to
:28:10. > :28:15.do. These islands were windswept and uninhabited when the first
:28:15. > :28:20.people went there. They were British. There were no
:28:20. > :28:26.Argentinian's there. Argentina was not in existence. I think it was
:28:26. > :28:31.there. It is not a political entity it is now. The key point is
:28:31. > :28:34.national self determination. The people of the Falkland Islands even
:28:34. > :28:40.by their own claim are not a nation. They are people who say they are
:28:40. > :28:45.British. The decision is ours, not theirs. I think we know what the
:28:45. > :28:48.result is going to be. If a vote overwhelmingly they want to stay
:28:48. > :28:54.British and have this as a British territory, you do not think we
:28:54. > :28:58.should listen to that? sovereignty belongs to us, if it
:28:58. > :29:04.belongs to anybody. We cannot be dictated to by 2000 people.
:29:04. > :29:09.there any other part of the world Worsell determination is wrong?
:29:09. > :29:14.in Northern Ireland. You cannot say because a gerrymandered entity has
:29:14. > :29:18.a majority, you will not talk to the people. We have done the right
:29:18. > :29:24.thing in Ireland, we started a political process. They are part of
:29:24. > :29:30.Britain and we listened to their plebiscite. Why can't we do that
:29:30. > :29:33.with the Falkland Islands? Because the negotiation which led to the
:29:33. > :29:36.Irish peace process is the opposite of what David Cameron did with
:29:36. > :29:42.Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner the other day. We did not walk away
:29:42. > :29:46.from them, we engage with them and we had a diplomatic solution.
:29:46. > :29:51.are 8000 miles away, Argentina is not that far away, it is part of
:29:51. > :29:55.the geopolitics of that region. Would it not be in our long-term
:29:55. > :30:01.interest to begin a dialogue? but let's have a dialogue that is
:30:01. > :30:06.sensible. Would you talk to them? would say, these people want to
:30:06. > :30:11.remain as they are. I would like to see them open up trade negotiations
:30:11. > :30:16.and that sort of thing, which is closed in South America, certainly
:30:16. > :30:22.in Argentina at the moment. That is a problem. I would like there to be
:30:22. > :30:27.an easy, direct flight into Argentina and back. I would like
:30:27. > :30:31.Argentinians to come and visit the war graves. It will never happen
:30:31. > :30:37.because Argentina claims the right to these islands. What is the point
:30:37. > :30:41.in having a negotiation? If we make a deal now, we can share
:30:41. > :30:46.sovereignty with Argentina, which, by the way it would make as quids
:30:46. > :30:49.in. Instead of spending billions with the possibility of many
:30:49. > :30:59.billions more what aircraft carriers we do not of that have, we
:30:59. > :31:07.
:31:07. > :31:12.That is wrong. They certainly could not. At the moment we are quite
:31:12. > :31:19.strong. The Argentinian say that the British are demilitarising the
:31:19. > :31:24.Falklands. We are down their instruments because 30 years ago,
:31:25. > :31:29.900 people, 200 of them British, were killed in a silly dispute.
:31:29. > :31:34.Tories were read BT share sovereignty at that time. I know
:31:34. > :31:39.you have not been in Parliament that long. Look back. The
:31:39. > :31:49.Government were ready to share sovereignty at that time. Can I ask
:31:49. > :31:53.you are realpolitik questions? Lives were lost in retaking the
:31:53. > :31:58.Falklands 30 years ago. Why would you want to give it up now when it
:31:58. > :32:04.looks like there could be our revenues to be had? Because you may
:32:04. > :32:10.have to give it up in total later. The Latin American sub-continent is
:32:10. > :32:15.100 % behind Argentina. They are not. Even the Spanish have turned
:32:15. > :32:20.against Argentina. The Spanish are a long way away, but the Brazilians,
:32:20. > :32:25.the Argentinians, the growing power of Ecuador and the countries that
:32:25. > :32:35.are rich, we should have good relations with them. Let's have
:32:35. > :32:35.
:32:35. > :32:40.good relations with them and share the or oil and gas in the Falklands.
:32:40. > :32:45.What is the answer to this? He is saying that Latin America is full
:32:46. > :32:49.of emerging economies, it is part of the 21st century, it is more
:32:49. > :32:55.important we have good relations with Latin America than we just do
:32:55. > :33:02.not speak to Argentina? We have good relations with Latin America.
:33:02. > :33:09.They exist. Argentina is not all that popular in Latin America. I
:33:09. > :33:15.slightly disagree with you, George. Slightly? I quite like disagreeing
:33:15. > :33:19.with George Galloway. My point is that the South Americans are not as
:33:19. > :33:29.George has presented. Some of them are very much on side in this
:33:29. > :33:35.matter. Name names? Brazil. said that Brazil was onside? Brazil
:33:35. > :33:40.is 100 % behind Argentina's claims. Brazil is someone we should be
:33:40. > :33:46.friends with. We are not friends with them. The this is politics, we
:33:46. > :33:54.are not having a battle. We want Argentina to back off. That is what
:33:54. > :33:58.we require. Argentina is in real economic trouble. This is just
:33:58. > :34:02.sabre-rattling on their part. They do not have the means to do
:34:02. > :34:07.anything? I be no at think you are in trouble because you take your
:34:07. > :34:12.own oil resources back. Argentinians are within their
:34:12. > :34:17.rights. But Argentina has a nationalist government, you are
:34:17. > :34:22.right, and their flag is flying ever higher because of this issue.
:34:22. > :34:31.We simply cannot resist the pan Latin American call for the
:34:31. > :34:35.Liberation, as they put it mac, from European colonial rule.
:34:35. > :34:40.would be: Realisation for the Argentinians to takeover and island
:34:40. > :34:46.where everyone there wants to stay away from Argentina. We have to end
:34:46. > :34:50.it there. Thank you very much. You are watching the Sunday Politics.
:34:50. > :34:51.Coming up in 20 minutes: I'll be looking at the week ahead with our
:34:52. > :35:01.political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics
:35:02. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:06.across the UK. Hello and welcome from us here at the London part of
:35:06. > :35:10.Sunday Politics. Joining me for the next 20 minutes are Emily
:35:10. > :35:13.Thornberry, Labour MP and Shadow Attorney General. And Gavin Barwell,
:35:14. > :35:16.Conservative MP for Croydon Central. First today, major cuts to the
:35:17. > :35:19.capital's police budget are on the way, and as the recent mayoral
:35:19. > :35:26.election showed, any significant reductions in the number of
:35:26. > :35:29.officers will be controversial. But what about closing police stations?
:35:29. > :35:35.Plans have emerged to sell off nine of them in the capital, and more
:35:35. > :35:39.closures could be on the way, as Andrew Cryan reports.
:35:39. > :35:43.Fewer police are fewer police stations? With big cuts to the
:35:43. > :35:48.Metropolitan Police's budget, that is the tries that London has to
:35:48. > :35:52.face. Keeping bobbies on the beat is a priority, according to some
:35:53. > :35:57.politicians. They are trying to work out what the need and what
:35:57. > :36:01.they can afford to get rid of. We have learned that they had even got
:36:01. > :36:06.as far as calling in estate agents to value existing police stations
:36:06. > :36:09.with a view to selling them off. We have learnt that there are nine
:36:09. > :36:14.operational police stations in London that the Metropolitan Police
:36:15. > :36:20.have proposed to sell, and this has been approved. These are the police
:36:20. > :36:25.stations. We do not know yet whether they are going to close.
:36:25. > :36:30.That is a review that is taking place currently over the next 12
:36:30. > :36:34.months. This is something that is overdue, to be honest, because we
:36:34. > :36:40.have 800 buildings on the police estate and many of them are not
:36:40. > :36:45.used enough, they are not modern enough for every day policing.
:36:45. > :36:51.police stations may have to offer a reduced service. Front counters
:36:51. > :36:55.look like they may have to take a serious head. As recently as March,
:36:55. > :37:03.Boris Johnston said that if one closed, another would open,
:37:03. > :37:10.maintaining the current level of 136. Now he is promising just one
:37:10. > :37:16.police counter in every bar. Potentially as few as 32. -- in
:37:16. > :37:20.every district. If people have all local police station, they want to
:37:20. > :37:26.go and report a crime there. They want to ask questions of the police
:37:26. > :37:30.and be able to report crime there. It is terrible that we're going to
:37:30. > :37:37.have just 32. At City Hall this week, the brand new deputy mayor
:37:37. > :37:41.for policing had this to say. there are counters and lots of
:37:41. > :37:46.office spaces, but these things that make sure that they work well
:37:46. > :37:52.operationally, the computer systems, infrastructure is very poor. That
:37:52. > :37:57.is the real issue. On the streets, London has had mixed views. If I
:37:57. > :38:01.needed to use the police, I would call them. I cannot think why I
:38:01. > :38:06.would need to going to a police station. If you get your mobile
:38:06. > :38:12.phone next, you go to a police station. There is a lot of crime
:38:12. > :38:16.around the area, so having a police station close by helps. Someone was
:38:16. > :38:21.marred and the police came straight outside and chased after the man
:38:21. > :38:24.and arrested him. Details about which counters will close well, I
:38:24. > :38:28.in the autumn and then the political fall-out will really
:38:28. > :38:32.begin. John Tully is from the Metropolitan
:38:32. > :38:36.Police Federation, representing officers. If the choice came down
:38:36. > :38:42.to closing police stations are getting rid of officers, presumably
:38:42. > :38:46.the former is more palatable to you? We are in the position that we
:38:46. > :38:53.around because of the Government's stands on the police budget, at 20
:38:53. > :38:58.% cut across the whole budget in the next three years, potentially
:38:58. > :39:04.losing 16,000 police officers. We would argue against that.
:39:05. > :39:08.16,000 in London, you are talking about national figures? But to
:39:08. > :39:14.answer the question, it is better that the sell-off buildings? There
:39:14. > :39:20.are choices to be made. The new crime Commissioner has got to make
:39:20. > :39:24.difficult decisions, along with the commissioner. Would the best thing
:39:24. > :39:28.under the circumstances be to sell buildings? I would not go so far as
:39:28. > :39:33.to say that, because as was mentioned in your report, the
:39:33. > :39:37.people of London need police stations. They need focus for their
:39:38. > :39:42.reporting of crime. We have previous statistics around the
:39:42. > :39:47.previous closure of police stations, and crime rates in those areas have
:39:47. > :39:53.gone up dramatically, in so far as police buildings have had to be
:39:53. > :40:00.returned to those areas. It is a difficult balance. They were
:40:00. > :40:07.concentrating resources on fewer Front councillors, 24 hours a day,
:40:07. > :40:13.-- front counters -- people would be able to report crimes? They
:40:13. > :40:17.absolutely would. I live in Havering. One of the police
:40:17. > :40:21.stations which is not mentioned in your report is Hornchurch. The
:40:21. > :40:26.local grape are co-ordinating a campaign to try and keep the police
:40:26. > :40:32.station opened, but the people in that area wanted it kept open.
:40:32. > :40:38.Gavin Barwell, there is at closure near to your area. Do you have a
:40:38. > :40:43.problem with it? No one wants to see police station closed -- no one
:40:43. > :40:48.wants to see police stations closed in an ideal world. But we have to
:40:48. > :40:53.make compromises. Both the main parties agree that there has to be
:40:53. > :40:58.a significant reduction in police budgets. The most important thing
:40:58. > :41:03.is protecting visible policing on our streets. If the choice is
:41:03. > :41:10.between officers and buildings, I would definitely go with the latter.
:41:10. > :41:14.Emily Thornberry, do you agree? Selling property is much better if
:41:14. > :41:18.it means preserving the front line? The difference between the
:41:18. > :41:22.political parties is that we think we should listen to the experts,
:41:22. > :41:27.and the experts have said that while we do need to reduce the
:41:27. > :41:34.amount of spending, we should not go down to 20 %, because if we do
:41:34. > :41:39.we will cut down on frontline police officers. Here is a way of
:41:39. > :41:43.preserving the officers, you bring in the cash. We do not need police
:41:43. > :41:53.counters, or so many of them? Whenever I have gone into a police
:41:53. > :41:56.station, there has always been a cue. I going, and I am all right,
:41:56. > :42:01.because I am the MP and I can knock on the window, but for people who
:42:02. > :42:08.want to ask for help, they is secure. If the other police station
:42:08. > :42:12.in Islington closes, there will be a great deal of opposition to it.
:42:12. > :42:22.Final thoughts on this. Clearly there are cuts coming down the
:42:22. > :42:23.
:42:23. > :42:27.right here, and it may well affect officers'. If we start to see a
:42:28. > :42:32.rationalisation of counters, what action will you Federation take?
:42:32. > :42:39.Our aim is to protect the welfare and efficiency of the officers we
:42:39. > :42:44.represent. Closures of police stations would be met with protests.
:42:44. > :42:49.The impact on the officers would not be that great but our concern
:42:49. > :42:55.is for members of the public. I hear from correspondence we get
:42:56. > :43:00.that the public would rather see the police stations remain open.
:43:00. > :43:03.Now, how to break the taboos around mental health? Gavin Barwell this
:43:03. > :43:06.week presented his Mental Health Discrimination Bill to the House of
:43:06. > :43:09.Commons. Its aim is to remove some of the existing legal restrictions
:43:09. > :43:12.around what people with mental health issues can and cannot do,
:43:12. > :43:17.including things like jury service, or being a school governor or
:43:17. > :43:20.director of a company. It follows a recent parliamentary debate, which
:43:20. > :43:30.many found moving, where several MPs spoke about their own mental
:43:30. > :43:31.
:43:31. > :43:38.health issues. In 1996, I suffered a deep depression. It was related
:43:38. > :43:43.to work issues and other things going on in my life. People in my
:43:43. > :43:49.family do not know what I'm going to say. Like a lot of men, you try
:43:49. > :43:56.and deal with it yourself, you do not speak about it. It is hard,
:43:56. > :44:03.because you have to recognise that it creeps up on you very slowly. In
:44:03. > :44:06.politics, we are designed to think that if you admit fault, then you
:44:06. > :44:11.will be looked upon in a disparaging way in terms of the
:44:11. > :44:17.electorate but also your colleagues. Alastair Campbell joins us now,
:44:17. > :44:24.Tony Blair's former communications chief, who campaigns on this issue.
:44:24. > :44:27.You have spoken about your own depression in the past. Gavin
:44:27. > :44:33.Barwell will speak about the specific measures in the bell in a
:44:33. > :44:43.moment. Well MPs and public figures speaking about this emboldened
:44:43. > :44:46.people? I hope so. I first became aware if this 10 years ago. 10
:44:46. > :44:51.years on, this is the first time that MPs have spoken about their
:44:52. > :44:56.problems. I know campaigners were looking for other public figures
:44:56. > :45:03.and celebrities to try and join you in that campaign, but they are hard
:45:03. > :45:08.to find? Yes, it is me, Stephen Fry, Ruby Wax, who get wheeled out all
:45:08. > :45:14.the time. I was disappointed at the level of coverage it got. It should
:45:14. > :45:18.have been a bigger moment. thought it broke through in the
:45:18. > :45:25.newspapers, but if they did, would it have a wider effect? At the
:45:25. > :45:29.moment, with concerns about cuts around the country, mental health
:45:29. > :45:34.services are being cut at the moment. Having people speak about
:45:34. > :45:38.it in parliament would be useful. I get letters from people all the
:45:38. > :45:43.time saying that any speaking about it, and I am not blowing my own
:45:43. > :45:47.trumpet, people say that me speaking about it helps them
:45:48. > :45:57.understand, helps them understand that there are people out there who
:45:58. > :45:59.
:45:59. > :46:03.When you were there at the height of your career, when you had a big
:46:03. > :46:09.job, I know fellow journalists, former colleagues knew, but how
:46:09. > :46:15.much were you prepared to talk about it at that time? I did not
:46:15. > :46:19.find it difficult. I have always been open about it. I was the prime
:46:19. > :46:26.minister's spokesman. I was not out their campaigning in the way I do
:46:26. > :46:30.now. You didn't speak about it at the time. I would have happily
:46:30. > :46:36.Dannette. In fact, I did do some events when I was working for Tony
:46:36. > :46:41.Blair. I have just bought out my diaries. Good that you mentioned
:46:41. > :46:46.that. Well, you did not. I was surprised how often I've recorded I
:46:46. > :46:50.felt depressed. If you have got an understanding boss, a family that
:46:50. > :46:56.understands, networks of friends, and medical support, and a lot of
:46:56. > :47:02.people do not had that. People in the middle of their careers or
:47:02. > :47:06.trying to get to the top, they are still not prepared. It is very hard.
:47:06. > :47:13.I understand why people feel about that and I understand when daylight
:47:13. > :47:17.on their application forms. When were you last in hospital? If you
:47:17. > :47:24.broke your leg or survived cancer, people feel nothing about saying, I
:47:24. > :47:29.am proud of that. If that is why the more that MPs talk about it, it
:47:29. > :47:36.will be better. Gavin Barwell This is your bill. Outline the important
:47:36. > :47:41.measures. There are some specific pieces of existing law that are
:47:42. > :47:48.discriminatory that ban people from doing things because they have a
:47:48. > :47:51.mental health condition, like jury service, they are automatically
:47:51. > :47:56.removed as MPs and it you had a physical condition there is no such
:47:56. > :48:00.rule. But the wider point is for Parliament to send a clear message
:48:00. > :48:05.that discriminating against people on the basis of mental health is
:48:05. > :48:12.wrong. We have changed so many things over the last few years,
:48:12. > :48:16.this is the last taboo. Does the equality act not already covered
:48:16. > :48:20.discrimination against people on the grounds of mental health?
:48:20. > :48:26.effectively. It is a private member's bill, so there is a limit
:48:26. > :48:31.on how much you can accomplish. Symbolic things are really
:48:31. > :48:36.important. This thing about an M P... I am trying to get from there
:48:36. > :48:41.is whether it will lead to anything tangible, or is it only symbolic?
:48:41. > :48:45.An example is jury service. If you have any mental health condition
:48:45. > :48:52.that means you are seeing a medical practitioner, you cannot serve on a
:48:52. > :48:56.jury. He could have post natal depression and you cannot be aged
:48:56. > :49:00.Europe. That debate showed how much better Parliament is with people
:49:00. > :49:06.with direct experience and the same is true of juries. Were you
:49:06. > :49:10.surprised when you saw people doing that? If they are reflected, or if
:49:10. > :49:16.Parliament is reflected by the population as a whole, it will be
:49:16. > :49:20.much more receptive. I think being an MP is a very stressful job and
:49:20. > :49:25.those who spoke out were very brave. Can I talk about the tangible
:49:25. > :49:28.results? I do not want to belittle this bill and I do not want to say
:49:28. > :49:34.it is not important, but we must not get distracted from what is
:49:34. > :49:39.happening. My mental health trust is getting cut by 10%. Disability
:49:39. > :49:42.Living Allowance which is what the person next door is getting, and
:49:42. > :49:47.you think there is nothing wrong with them, and they may be
:49:47. > :49:52.suffering from mental illness. Really it is about the money.
:49:52. > :49:55.it is also about if you start saying there are people around and
:49:55. > :49:59.there is nothing wrong with them and they are not working, it is
:49:59. > :50:06.very important for politicians to say mental health can be one of the
:50:06. > :50:11.reasons. All of these issues are important. There are questions to
:50:11. > :50:15.be asked about why mental health is being told to reduce its budget. In
:50:15. > :50:19.terms of welfare there are people who are abusing the system and the
:50:19. > :50:26.Government has to identify those people without putting those who
:50:26. > :50:34.are genuinely ill through stress and that is happening. It ice like
:50:34. > :50:37.you disagree with Emily in this being seen as a limited thing.
:50:37. > :50:42.standing up and what Gavin is doing with the bill in terms of keeping
:50:42. > :50:49.the issue out there, I totally agree the cuts are a big issue and
:50:49. > :50:54.I really worry. But four MPs have come out and there are probably
:50:54. > :51:00.dozens of more. If they did, that would give political strength to
:51:00. > :51:04.the campaign. If the Government wants to cut back on Disability
:51:04. > :51:08.living Allowance by 20%, and I go for an interview and I say on this
:51:08. > :51:14.day I am fine, and in three weeks ago into a deep depression, how do
:51:14. > :51:20.you keep a job in those circumstances? Newspapers, many of
:51:20. > :51:25.them honed in on the comments Tony Blair made about Gordon Brown in
:51:25. > :51:29.your diaries. Did you not feel uneasy about using that? Yes, it is
:51:29. > :51:35.the diary and it is a phrase I used and I explained why. Language is
:51:35. > :51:39.important. Precisely, was it not worth thinking about? Then you
:51:39. > :51:47.would have said, it is not a real diary because you have changed it.
:51:47. > :51:51.You must have known the newspapers were going to focus in on that.
:51:51. > :51:56.you had said that was one of the's things they would have picked up
:51:56. > :52:01.four s serialisation, I would not have thought that. I accept the
:52:01. > :52:07.point you are making. In Durham the other day I thought about Michael
:52:07. > :52:15.Gove's potty plans and I thought about it. Did you pick him up on
:52:15. > :52:21.anything? No, but when he wrote his own book he talked about two kinds
:52:21. > :52:26.of mad people. I wrote a blog about it and I said, that shows a
:52:26. > :52:32.misunderstanding of mental health. If anyone had been described like
:52:32. > :52:42.that, they would be very offended. And language is very important.
:52:42. > :52:43.
:52:43. > :52:48.for a look at what else has been happening in the capital. Burmese
:52:48. > :52:53.opposition leader and Nobel police -- the peace laureate Aung San Suu
:52:53. > :52:57.Kyi visited London this week meeting celebrities, including Dave
:52:57. > :53:02.Lee Travis whose BBC World Service show she listen to during her long
:53:02. > :53:07.years of house arrest. Boris Johnson called for a second
:53:07. > :53:11.runway at Stansted to be built. He continues to press for an airport
:53:11. > :53:16.to be built in the Thames estuary. Thousands of bus workers went on
:53:16. > :53:20.strike in a dispute over bonus pay for working during the Olympics.
:53:20. > :53:25.Transport for London claimed more than 30 buses ran, but many writs
:53:25. > :53:31.were disrupted. By his Johnson is being asked about
:53:31. > :53:37.a meeting he had with Rupert Murdoch, in January last year it.
:53:37. > :53:42.The meeting has only just been made public and was not declared on City
:53:42. > :53:50.Hall's register of hospitality. Mr Johnson said it was noted on City
:53:50. > :53:55.Hall's website. Boris Johnson and Rupert Murdoch another day, but a
:53:55. > :53:59.strike on the buses a few weeks before the Olympics, this could get
:53:59. > :54:05.problematic. A cause a lot of misery for my constituents on
:54:05. > :54:09.Friday. In south London we depend very heavily on the buses. I have
:54:09. > :54:14.some sympathy with bus drivers, other public transport workers have
:54:14. > :54:19.been offered bonuses. But I think they were wrong to go on strike.
:54:19. > :54:23.You could not have done much about this. We have got to sort this out.
:54:23. > :54:27.We cannot let London in one of its fantastic moments be undermined by
:54:27. > :54:32.a strike, but we also need to recognise the additional work
:54:32. > :54:36.people do not have to do. We are expecting an extra 6 million people,
:54:36. > :54:44.everybody else has had a bonus. It is a matter of sorting out the
:54:44. > :54:48.details. The unions are holding us to ransom, Alastair Campbell?
:54:48. > :54:52.think they are using it at this stage. I think the Olympics will be
:54:52. > :55:02.brilliant. I think there is hype about how bad it will be, but I
:55:02. > :55:07.
:55:07. > :55:11.think it will be fine. Andrew, it The rain has been pouring down in
:55:11. > :55:16.time for the start of Wimbledon tomorrow. We hope England will
:55:16. > :55:24.still be in Europe 2012 after this evening, but what is the great
:55:24. > :55:29.political game going to serve for us? It is time for the week ahead.
:55:29. > :55:33.So, post coalition positioning. We have got the Prime Minister at
:55:33. > :55:39.talking about the kind of welfare reforms he would like it there was
:55:39. > :55:42.an overall Tory majority and the election is not until 2015. That is
:55:42. > :55:47.interesting. White is the timing of this coming out now when the
:55:47. > :55:51.proposals would not come in for another few years. Cameron is
:55:51. > :55:55.desperate to prove he is the true Conservative because his
:55:55. > :56:00.backbenchers are very angry he is not sticking up to the Liberal
:56:00. > :56:05.Democrats enough for now. And we have to look at why he is choosing
:56:05. > :56:11.to attack benefit cheats rather than tax avoiders when tax avoiders
:56:11. > :56:15.cost as much more. He did them last week. The problem is very often
:56:15. > :56:20.they turn out to be Tory donors or you end up looking hypocritical, so
:56:20. > :56:26.it is much easier to go for a more honourable group which is cynical.
:56:26. > :56:30.He is trying to deal with criticism. He realises he is not that popular
:56:30. > :56:34.a prime minister amongst his own backbenchers and is this not a bit
:56:34. > :56:39.of red meat to keep them happy? What worries me is we have still
:56:39. > :56:43.got three years to go of this coalition allegedly and already the
:56:43. > :56:46.partners are acting as if they are up some kind of married couple who
:56:46. > :56:52.know they are going to split up, but who are being vaguely civilised
:56:52. > :56:57.to each other, but leading separate lives. If it was a face-off between
:56:57. > :57:01.the Lib Dems and the Tories on welfare, the Tories will win. If
:57:01. > :57:05.you look at the opinion polls, there is nothing you can do on
:57:05. > :57:12.welfare that is too tough for the British public. They think the
:57:12. > :57:16.Tories are too tough. Absolutely, and so if Cameron finds a way of
:57:16. > :57:21.engineering a conflict with Nick Clegg over this issue, he is in a
:57:21. > :57:26.stronger position. They will not do anything they have not signed up to
:57:26. > :57:31.in the coalition agreement. The coalition agreement is running out.
:57:31. > :57:37.They have gone through the legislative proposals. Is this what
:57:37. > :57:43.we will be saying for the next few years? If you listened to Danny
:57:43. > :57:48.Alexander this morning and look back at the Lib Dems in 2008, it is
:57:48. > :57:54.chalk and cheese. I used to go to all their conferences. They were a
:57:54. > :57:59.party of big spending, Keynesians, now they are fiscal conservative
:57:59. > :58:03.and anti- Keens. You cannot take Danny Alexander as representative
:58:03. > :58:09.of his party at off. He is pretty deeply unpopular amongst many Lib
:58:09. > :58:14.Dem MPs and activists. He is not the right person. These are the
:58:14. > :58:19.policies they have signed up to a. They are, and Danny Alexander is
:58:19. > :58:23.unrepresentative, but he is not alone. There is jeering it back --
:58:23. > :58:28.Jeremy Brown and David Laws and a group of Lib-Dems at the top of the
:58:28. > :58:33.party who are more classic in their liberalism. The party membership is
:58:33. > :58:38.also changing. A lot of the left wing Lib-Dems have left the party.
:58:38. > :58:42.I assumed in the grass roots at the party would be going more left wing
:58:42. > :58:48.in reaction to being in bed with the Tories. Yes, but a local people
:58:48. > :58:52.have walked away. At the next conference season, they have to
:58:52. > :58:57.vote every policy they pass and their base is changing. We have got
:58:57. > :59:03.the house of Lords, the bill is being published on Tuesday? Tuesday
:59:03. > :59:07.or Wednesday? It will be Nick Clegg's bill. This adds to the grit
:59:07. > :59:13.in the oyster of the coalition of. What will be really interesting is
:59:13. > :59:18.how Ed Miliband handles this. We pretty much know there will be a
:59:18. > :59:22.big Tory rebellion. Where they can rent would like to say he has one
:59:22. > :59:27.major concessions over this, they are not going to be enough to stave
:59:27. > :59:32.off a big rebellion. The question for Ed Miliband is as he stick with
:59:32. > :59:41.these principles or try to score what should be an open goal? Score
:59:41. > :59:46.an open goal. He will do both. Miliband is a democrat by instinct.
:59:46. > :59:51.In the previous Labour manifesto there was a call for an elected
:59:51. > :59:54.House of Lords, but Labour had been careful about saying they need to
:59:54. > :00:00.see the detail and they are worried about the relationship between the
:00:00. > :00:07.two chambers. Well they say we believe in an elected chamber?
:00:07. > :00:10.will do both. I think there will be a call for a referendum on the
:00:10. > :00:15.proposals and the Government could massively unravel. We know this is
:00:15. > :00:20.a deal for the Lib Dems in return for the Conservative boundary
:00:20. > :00:25.changes and that could come apart. As big a dilemma it is for Ed
:00:25. > :00:29.Miliband, it is a quandary for the Tories. Can they get the boundary
:00:29. > :00:35.changes through making it easier for them to win the next election?
:00:35. > :00:39.Marginally easier. Yes, but it will make a difference. If the Lib Dems
:00:39. > :00:46.choose to make a real stand over this, the Tories are in a more
:00:46. > :00:51.difficult position. It is still part of the Daily dance that is the
:00:51. > :00:56.coalition. Did Michael Gove have a good or a bad week? Miraculously I
:00:56. > :01:01.thought he had a good week. The story emerged in a messy way, but
:01:01. > :01:05.once it was out he found a big chunk of public opinion was on his
:01:05. > :01:11.side and a huge chunk of right-wing media opinion, which has been
:01:11. > :01:15.hostile to the Government, was also on side. He has got a substantial
:01:15. > :01:19.coalition in favour of reform and he will only need to give a few
:01:19. > :01:27.cosmetic concessions to the Lib- Dems, maybe not including the
:01:27. > :01:31.phrase CSC's. We go ahead? thinks it will. He is optimistic it
:01:31. > :01:36.will still go ahead. He thinks more about keeping the essentials of
:01:36. > :01:42.what he wants to do than who ostensibly wins the battle so he
:01:42. > :01:46.will be prepared to hand Nick Clegg some cosmetic victory, saying we
:01:46. > :01:53.have watered down the wild excesses of the plan, and he will still have
:01:53. > :01:59.the fundamentals of the reform. It has been good week -- a good week
:01:59. > :02:05.for him. I do not think he does anything by accident. This is an
:02:05. > :02:11.appeal to the Tory backbenchers. It is at a time when David Cameron is
:02:11. > :02:16.being criticised and we will see this going through. You will be
:02:16. > :02:20.able to do GCSEs, as long as you get an A-C grades. That rules out a
:02:20. > :02:27.lot of young people in this country who will be forced to submit to
:02:27. > :02:32.another qualification. I am 110% certain this is not a bid for the
:02:32. > :02:38.leadership. I agree. Is that the interest rate the Germans are
:02:38. > :02:43.charging the Greeks? It is not Jimmy Carr's tax rate. There is a
:02:43. > :02:49.kind of vacuum. The coalition agreement, they have done most of
:02:49. > :02:53.it. We are going to see more of this. Absolutely and that is why
:02:53. > :02:58.Steve Hilton has left Downing Street. The Government has run out
:02:58. > :03:02.of momentum and we are in an incredibly long drawn-out period of
:03:02. > :03:07.phased withdrawal. That is why I thought it was a good week for
:03:07. > :03:11.Michael Gove and the Government. It gave a bit of direction to the
:03:11. > :03:17.Government which has fizzled out in the past six months. That is it for
:03:17. > :03:22.this week. Thanks to all my guests. Jo will be back tomorrow on BBC Two
:03:22. > :03:26.with the Daily Politics, but at 11am because Wimbledon is on. I