:00:46. > :00:51.Bolt on. Welcome to the programme. Ed Miliband kicks off the party
:00:51. > :00:58.conference in Manchester, with his party ahead in the poles, but does
:00:58. > :01:05.anybody know what his party stands for? We will be joined by aid
:01:05. > :01:09.Labour Deputy Leader Harriet Harman. The biggest union boss wants to
:01:09. > :01:13.purge the party of New Labour Blairites, while he and other left-
:01:13. > :01:18.wing union bosses want the Labour leader to support calls for a
:01:18. > :01:23.general strike. Union leader Mark Serwotka and for a Blairite insider
:01:23. > :01:26.Phil Collins go head-to-head. Nick Clegg told the Lib Dems they are
:01:26. > :01:32.now the third party of government. But can they really claw their way
:01:32. > :01:42.back into contention for the next election? Mr Clegg's former Chief
:01:42. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:52.of Staff and shiny new Health Minister Norman Lamb joins us. I
:01:52. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:56.will be speaking to Ed Miliband here in London. And with me as
:01:56. > :02:03.always on a Sunday, a top trio of political journalists, the best
:02:03. > :02:06.money can buy. Nick Watt of The Guardian, Janan Ganesh of the
:02:06. > :02:12.Financial Times, and Isabel Oakeshott from the Sunday Times.
:02:12. > :02:19.They will be tweeting their thoughts throughout the show. You
:02:19. > :02:23.can join in if you like on Twitter. So, last week, it was the Lib Dems
:02:23. > :02:27.in Brighton. Today, Labour gets its annual shindig under way in
:02:27. > :02:35.Manchester, with the slogan Rebuilding Britain. Labour is ahead
:02:35. > :02:40.in the poles, but Ed Miliband does not score so highly himself. Three-
:02:40. > :02:45.quarters of people asked in a poll yesterday said they thought the
:02:45. > :02:48.Labour leader does not have what it takes to be Prime Minister. So, how
:02:48. > :02:53.can he convince people? This is what he had to say to Andrew Marr
:02:53. > :02:56.this morning. I think the real question about who is going to be
:02:56. > :03:00.the next Prime Minister will be, who can stand up to rebuild Britain,
:03:00. > :03:06.and to make the economy work for everybody, not just for those at
:03:06. > :03:13.the top? We saw you and your family arriving in this a city yesterday.
:03:13. > :03:18.It is nice to have my family here. But this is not going to be the
:03:18. > :03:25.start of the relaunch of Ed Miliband, lots of soft-focus
:03:25. > :03:32.pictures, interviews on other kinds of sofas? Somebody who is going to
:03:32. > :03:36.be Prime Minister, people want to know about you. Well, that was the
:03:36. > :03:39.Labour leader speaking on Andrew Marr. Labour is assuming that the
:03:39. > :03:46.more we get to know about Ed Miliband, the more we will think he
:03:46. > :03:51.is prime ministerial material - draw false? Probably false. But the
:03:51. > :03:57.one thing that the Tories like to cite is their own private polling,
:03:57. > :03:59.showing that even a third of Labour supporters would rather have David
:03:59. > :04:03.Cameron as Prime Minister than Ed Miliband. So there is a problem.
:04:03. > :04:07.But if you speak to shadow ministers, they will say, this is
:04:07. > :04:12.very much unfinished business. Give us time, and we will show you how
:04:12. > :04:19.Ed Miliband can connect with the public. I think in some ways, Ed is
:04:19. > :04:24.held back a bit by wanting to be a bit too true to himself. You never
:04:24. > :04:28.see him not wearing his suit and not speaking in polity speak. I
:04:28. > :04:32.think he is haunted by the mistakes Gordon Brown made, when he tried to
:04:32. > :04:38.pretend he liked The Arctic Monkeys, tried to pretend to be someone he
:04:38. > :04:41.was not. Shall we concentrate on the positive? Ed Miliband is
:04:41. > :04:45.absolutely right when he says that in this day and age, people want to
:04:45. > :04:49.know something about the leaders. He has got a very happy family life.
:04:49. > :04:54.Another point he made today is that he has been utterly consistent. He
:04:54. > :04:58.made a speech last year about responsible capitalism. So, you're
:04:59. > :05:02.seeing a consistent person, unlike David Cameron, who has embarked on
:05:02. > :05:07.a bit of a zig-zagged journey. The question is, he may be consistent
:05:07. > :05:12.but do we like what we are seeing at the end of the day? I think the
:05:12. > :05:15.more we see of him, the more we will realise that he is a nice and
:05:15. > :05:19.decent man, and someone with a more interesting background than the
:05:19. > :05:29.Prime Minister, but that is not quite the same thing has been
:05:29. > :05:31.
:05:31. > :05:37.commanding or authority if or prime ministerial. -- or authoritative.
:05:37. > :05:41.People have said of David Cameron that he would be nice in calm times,
:05:41. > :05:44.but not in combustible times, and I think that would be even more true
:05:44. > :05:48.for Ed Miliband. We are going to see his school report, we're going
:05:48. > :05:53.to be told what it was like in his north London comprehensive. I think
:05:53. > :05:57.that is a good thing, but remember, we had Neil Kinnock the Movie,
:05:57. > :06:07.walking on the gelle peninsula, which brought him to the people in
:06:07. > :06:08.
:06:09. > :06:15.a personal sense, but then he failed on the substance. -- the
:06:15. > :06:19.Gower peninsula. We can now speak to Harriet Harman, the Deputy
:06:19. > :06:23.Leader of the Labour Party. She joins us live from Manchester.
:06:24. > :06:30.Welcome to the programme. Thank you. The polls suggest Labour could well
:06:30. > :06:32.form the next government - Howard an Ed Miliband Labour government be
:06:32. > :06:36.different from the last Labour government? I think it is very
:06:37. > :06:40.different circumstances, which there will be in 2015. But I think
:06:40. > :06:44.that this week, following on from your last discussion, this week is
:06:44. > :06:49.a very big, important opportunity for the public to see Ed Miliband
:06:49. > :06:54.as he is. And having seen, over the last 30 years, a lot of leaders
:06:54. > :06:57.from all different parties, up close, I can say, without joining
:06:57. > :07:02.too much into the psychobabble, but I think the thing about Ed Miliband
:07:02. > :07:06.is that he is very much in touch with people's concerns. Right away,
:07:06. > :07:11.he was talking about the squeeze on living standards, and the real fear
:07:11. > :07:18.that people have got on youth unemployment. So, he is in touch.
:07:18. > :07:24.He is also very robust. I do not think he will change and blow with
:07:24. > :07:28.the wind and do phoney photocalls. He is as he is. He recognises, at
:07:28. > :07:31.the same time, that people need to get to know him better. A lot of
:07:31. > :07:37.people do not know the Leader of the Opposition, especially only two
:07:37. > :07:43.years into his role. But you answer a question that I did not ask. I
:07:43. > :07:48.did not ask about Ed Miliband up the conference. I was joining in
:07:48. > :07:52.the discussion! I asked to help the next Labour government would differ
:07:52. > :07:55.from the previous one? Because it will have to deal with making sure
:07:55. > :08:00.that we have a country which starts to have a growing economy, starts
:08:00. > :08:04.to be more prosperous again, and starts to be more fair again,
:08:04. > :08:07.against a background of five years of a coalition government under
:08:07. > :08:11.which the economy has been in recession, and things have been
:08:11. > :08:14.getting more unfair. So, there will be a lot of things to put right,
:08:15. > :08:19.and I think Ed Miliband is clear, we need to do more than just put
:08:19. > :08:23.right the damage that this government has done - but he also
:08:23. > :08:29.has a vision for making the country work better in the interests of
:08:29. > :08:33.everybody, rather than just the vested interests of the elite. So,
:08:33. > :08:36.he has got a viewpoint which goes back across the Labour government,
:08:36. > :08:40.as well as previous Tory governments, about making Britain
:08:40. > :08:45.work better for the people of the country. There are two problems, it
:08:45. > :08:48.seems to me - one is that nobody knows what your party stands for,
:08:48. > :08:54.and the second one is that most people cannot see Ed Miliband as
:08:54. > :08:57.Prime Minister. Well, I think that only two years into being Leader of
:08:57. > :09:01.the Opposition, especially when you have had a new government, people
:09:01. > :09:04.do not see that much of the Leader of the Opposition, and therefore,
:09:04. > :09:09.this is an important week, an important opportunity, for Ed
:09:09. > :09:15.Miliband, not only to show that he is in touch, which he is, but also
:09:15. > :09:19.that he is very strong and robust, and very smart and intelligent, as
:09:19. > :09:23.everybody knows. But what he has done is, he has put together a very
:09:23. > :09:28.strong team. This is often not remarked upon. One thing about the
:09:28. > :09:32.leader is that they must do a great deal themselves, but they must also
:09:33. > :09:38.need a strong team. Whilst you see a shambles in Cameron's Cabinet,
:09:38. > :09:41.actually, Ed has built a very strong team. If you look at Rachel
:09:41. > :09:45.Reeves, Chuka Umunna, as well as the more experienced people like
:09:45. > :09:50.Andy Burnham and Ed Balls, he has got a strong team who can govern
:09:50. > :09:55.the country well, compared to the current shambles that we have now.
:09:55. > :10:00.Not all of your own side share this cheerleading approach. The chairman
:10:00. > :10:07.of one influential Labour think- tank says, you have nothing to say
:10:07. > :10:12.on public sector reform or welfare or other major reforms - do you?
:10:12. > :10:17.That's not true. Of course, it is good to have people outside saying,
:10:17. > :10:21.you have got to do more. That is the role of people outside to be
:10:21. > :10:26.saying, put your plans forward. And Ed Miliband has been putting
:10:26. > :10:31.forward very big proposals for change. He proposed this morning
:10:31. > :10:35.that if the banks do not voluntarily separate out their high
:10:35. > :10:39.street arm from their casino speculation arm, there will be
:10:39. > :10:43.legislation to enforce that legislation. And yesterday, he said
:10:43. > :10:46.that because people are not getting a fair deal with their fuel bills,
:10:46. > :10:49.Ofgem is don't have to be abolished, we will have to have a new
:10:50. > :10:54.organisation, which will make sure that energy companies pass on
:10:54. > :10:58.reductions to consumers. So, basically, he is talking about
:10:59. > :11:03.changing things. Instead of it being business as usual, with
:11:03. > :11:06.everybody finding that they always losing out, actually, things will
:11:06. > :11:11.be re-engineered in a way which is much fairer, and things will work
:11:11. > :11:15.better. So, I think he is coming back with very big statements.
:11:15. > :11:19.even Alan Johnson, something of a loyalist, says, Mr Miliband has to
:11:20. > :11:26.do more to demonstrate that he is a leader. Do you agree, and what more
:11:26. > :11:30.should he do? I read the Alan Johnson article, and he is
:11:30. > :11:34.absolutely right, that, coming from the position of a new Leader of the
:11:34. > :11:39.Opposition, when we have lost out from government, when people did
:11:39. > :11:44.not vote for us because they wanted change, Ed Miliband has got an
:11:44. > :11:48.important task to just understand the fact that people thought they
:11:48. > :11:51.were voting for a government which would help grow the economy and
:11:51. > :11:55.help the deficit come down, but actually, they are getting a
:11:55. > :12:01.recession and an increase in the deficit. But also, as Alan Johnson
:12:01. > :12:08.said, and we all agree, that we need to set forth our plans. People
:12:08. > :12:11.want to know that Ed Miliband has a strong set of plans, so that the
:12:11. > :12:15.politics of a future government can make a difference to their life.
:12:15. > :12:19.And he is very determined to do that. Can you clear-up the party
:12:19. > :12:22.line on the famous spending plans. You told the Spectator this week
:12:23. > :12:26.that Labour would not sign up to Tory spending plans at the next
:12:26. > :12:33.election, but Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, says he wants to keep
:12:33. > :12:38.his options open - who is right? Well, he is right. The question
:12:38. > :12:42.fairly put to me by the Spectator was, what are you going to do in
:12:42. > :12:46.2015? The answer to that is, we have got to be absolutely certain
:12:46. > :12:50.we do not make promises we cannot keep. The economy is going from bad
:12:50. > :12:54.to worse. Therefore, we will have to shape our promises and proposals
:12:54. > :13:01.as to what we can do in the light of the economic circumstances, as
:13:01. > :13:06.they prevail, as we come up to 2015. We, to -- we cannot actually
:13:06. > :13:10.predict that now. But what I was answering was what we would do now.
:13:10. > :13:13.Now, we would not be doing what the government is doing, which is
:13:13. > :13:18.sending us further into recession. So, I think there was a timing
:13:18. > :13:21.thing, which was my fault. I'm not sure there was. I have got the full
:13:21. > :13:28.transcript of the interview. It is quite clear you were asked about
:13:28. > :13:36.promises for the next election. The question was, do you think the next
:13:36. > :13:39.election will be hard on spending? The question was clearly about your
:13:39. > :13:43.spending plans for the next election, so, can we clarify that
:13:43. > :13:48.when you told the Spectator that you would not stick to Tory
:13:48. > :13:54.spending plans come the next election, that was not correct?
:13:54. > :13:58.Well, I did, I'm afraid, do what I did earlier on, which is answer a
:13:58. > :14:04.question which had not been asked. But in order for me to make it
:14:04. > :14:07.absolutely clear... And you know, although what we are saying about
:14:08. > :14:13.what the Government is doing now is wrong for the economy and unfair,
:14:13. > :14:19.the cuts are stifling of economic growth... That was not what you
:14:19. > :14:27.were asked. I know, but come 2015, nobody will be in a position to
:14:27. > :14:37.actually say what we will be putting forward in our manifesto to
:14:37. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:48.2015. I think we had better leave What do you make of that? It is
:14:48. > :14:53.just a classic model. There is a desperate desire not to cock things
:14:53. > :14:57.up this time. Just stand back and let the coalition unravel. Harriet
:14:57. > :15:02.was getting all into a pickle, and that shows why they would prefer a
:15:02. > :15:07.defensive strategy of saying less rather than more. Has Mr Balls had
:15:07. > :15:12.a few words with her in a dark room? He would indeed have had
:15:12. > :15:16.words with her, because she was not speaking from the script. She used
:15:16. > :15:20.to be the shadow treasury secretary and knew about economics. She said
:15:21. > :15:26.Ed Balls has set out specific plans on banks, but then said the Labour
:15:26. > :15:29.Party needs to set out more plans. You have members of the Shadow
:15:30. > :15:34.Cabinet saying, we are itching to sell our plans, and we are getting
:15:34. > :15:38.blocked by Ed Balls, who is saying, we should not say a great deal.
:15:38. > :15:43.the briefing we are getting up their is how Mr Miliband's people
:15:43. > :15:48.are worried about making him prime- ministerial. They also say
:15:48. > :15:51.privately that they are worried about Ed Balls. He made a decisive
:15:51. > :15:55.intervention this week, which was the promise that the next Labour
:15:55. > :16:03.government, were it to be a letter, would hold a zero based spending
:16:03. > :16:07.review, which means all spending is up for discussion. She including
:16:07. > :16:12.international aid and a few other things. I am not sure that is
:16:12. > :16:15.electorally effective before the next election. Labour and voters
:16:15. > :16:19.need reassures us now. Hold that thought.
:16:19. > :16:22.A last week in Brighton, Nick Clegg live to fight another day. The Lib
:16:22. > :16:26.Dem party faithful were hardly ecstatic about being in bed with
:16:26. > :16:29.the Tories, but they held their noses and voted to stick with the
:16:29. > :16:32.coalition and their man, at least for now. But there may still be
:16:32. > :16:42.troubles ahead. My Clegg tried to rally the party
:16:42. > :16:46.faithful by promising them a brighter future. But Mr Clegg is
:16:46. > :16:49.very much on probation. A recent survey of Lib Dem members showed
:16:50. > :16:53.major dissatisfaction with his leadership. The return of Paddy
:16:54. > :16:59.Ashdown to run the 2015 election campaign is a popular move and may
:16:59. > :17:05.well shore up Clegg's support. But what happens post 2015? Vince Cable
:17:05. > :17:09.gave us his predictions. I don't believe the British people will
:17:09. > :17:13.want to entrust their future to any one party next time. If Britain
:17:13. > :17:20.wants sustainable growth, competence with compassion,
:17:20. > :17:26.fairness with freedom and more equality, not ever greater division,
:17:26. > :17:29.then that government must have Liberal Democrats at its heart.
:17:29. > :17:32.does things believe he would be at the heart of the next government?
:17:32. > :17:39.It is understood that the Business Secretary would not mind being
:17:39. > :17:42.Chancellor, should there be a coalition with Labour.
:17:42. > :17:52.And Lib Dem health minister Norman Lamb joins me now for the Sunday
:17:52. > :17:55.
:17:55. > :17:59.interview. Let me show you what the Shadow
:17:59. > :18:02.Health minister, Andy Burnham, had to say. He said if I am Health
:18:02. > :18:06.Secretary after the next election, I will repeal the government's
:18:06. > :18:09.Health Act and I will restore the latter end in the NHS. Let's stick
:18:10. > :18:14.to repeal the Health Act. I raise this because at your conference,
:18:14. > :18:18.Vince Cable said we are heading for another hung parliament. The poll
:18:18. > :18:22.suggests that if we are, Labour will be the largest party. If there
:18:22. > :18:27.was a coalition agreement, would you go along with the idea of
:18:27. > :18:31.repealing the Health Act? I think it would be madness to do that.
:18:31. > :18:35.From my point of view, anyone who believes in the NHS and wants to
:18:36. > :18:42.see a sustainable NHS dealing with the challenging problems of an
:18:42. > :18:46.ageing population should be interested in making this work. To
:18:46. > :18:51.repeal the Act would be to tell the NHS we are going to go through
:18:51. > :18:54.another complete restructuring. It would be madness. Mr Miliband and
:18:54. > :19:00.Mr Burnham seemed to be in some conflict yesterday, because the
:19:00. > :19:03.Labour leader talked about not reversing everything. They are
:19:03. > :19:07.saying, we will repeal the bill, because we don't like the
:19:07. > :19:10.principles or outlines, but there could be give and take on some of
:19:10. > :19:18.the changes. Could that be the basis of an agreement with Labour
:19:18. > :19:22.could? I think this is rhetoric. Actually, the reforms are
:19:22. > :19:27.consistent with much of what Labour did in power. They accepted a role
:19:27. > :19:30.for the independent sector, on the basis that the patient always get
:19:30. > :19:34.their care free at the point of need, but recognising that a number
:19:34. > :19:39.of different providers could play a role in that. That was Labour's
:19:39. > :19:43.policy. Their policy was also to devolve budgets to GPs. This is
:19:43. > :19:46.consistent with the approach they took. To unravel all of that and go
:19:46. > :19:53.through another complete restructuring would drive people in
:19:53. > :19:56.the service mad. Let's make this work. The focus needs to be on how
:19:57. > :20:00.we ensure that we managed care effectively, give patients high
:20:00. > :20:05.quality care when we have an ageing population, which means rising
:20:06. > :20:09.costs. Every health system has to deal with this. The challenge is to
:20:09. > :20:14.improve care and make the money go further. You were unhappy with a
:20:14. > :20:18.lot of the reforms to begin with. Andrew Lansley, the author of the
:20:18. > :20:23.reforms, has gone from the Health Department. Are you looking at
:20:23. > :20:28.tweaking or refining some of the plans that are coming down the
:20:28. > :20:32.pike? At again, I come back to the point about implementation. It is
:20:32. > :20:36.all very well passing an act of parliament, but the key thing is
:20:37. > :20:39.about how the service implement it. One thing I was pleased about
:20:39. > :20:44.through the listening exercise last year was that the government came
:20:44. > :20:49.down in favour of the concept of integrated care. That means shaping
:20:49. > :20:53.services around the needs of the patient. When you have an ageing
:20:53. > :20:57.population, it is about how you provide care to older people. At
:20:57. > :21:02.the moment, care for older people falls down. There is a ridiculous
:21:02. > :21:07.divide between social care provided by councils and healthcare provided
:21:07. > :21:11.by the NHS. From the patient's poised of view, that is madness. We
:21:11. > :21:16.want to integrate it. We can see the future in places like Torbay,
:21:16. > :21:20.where they have teams of health and care workers working together. The
:21:20. > :21:24.focus is on how Pete Reed -- how you keep people fitter and keep
:21:24. > :21:33.people out of hospital. That is the key to reducing costs and making
:21:33. > :21:36.this work. The Dilnot report said the costs of these changes was �1.7
:21:36. > :21:42.billion. Do you agree with the Chancellor that the health budget
:21:42. > :21:49.should pick up that cost within the existing ring-fenced health budget?
:21:49. > :21:52.I have concerns about that. The health budget is expected to
:21:52. > :21:55.deliver, and this goes back to the Mickelson challenge under the last
:21:55. > :22:00.Labour government, where they said because we have rising costs for
:22:00. > :22:03.the foreseeable future, we have to find efficiencies. But could you
:22:03. > :22:08.absorb the costs of the Dilnot report into the health budget in
:22:08. > :22:13.the way the Treasury wants you to do? Achieving those efficiencies is
:22:13. > :22:18.a big challenge. To do that as well as to implement the Dilnot report
:22:18. > :22:23.from a health budgets is a big challenge. Let's have an open
:22:23. > :22:27.discussion about this. The reform of social care transcends narrow
:22:27. > :22:32.party politics. We should have discussions across the parties and
:22:32. > :22:41.come up with a funding model that can deliver a reform of the system
:22:41. > :22:46.that is so long overdue. Let's come back to the health reforms. There
:22:46. > :22:50.is still unrest in your party about these. Here is Andrew George, a
:22:50. > :23:00.Liberal Democrat MP. The act that is now law will cause the biggest
:23:00. > :23:04.
:23:04. > :23:09.Sounds like a fair chunk of your party would not mind if you sat
:23:09. > :23:13.down with Labour and took off the Tory edges of these reforms.
:23:13. > :23:18.have moved from quoting one MP to saying the bulk of our party
:23:18. > :23:27.believe that. A said a chunk of your party. I don't know if it is
:23:27. > :23:34.the bulk. I spoke in endless fringe meetings at Brighton. It is wall-
:23:34. > :23:38.to-wall health stuff at the conference. And I did not find this.
:23:39. > :23:42.I found a real determination. We have gone through a trauma.
:23:42. > :23:46.Actually, the Lib Dems in government achieved significant
:23:46. > :23:52.improvements to the Bill as it went through Parliament. Now, let's just
:23:52. > :23:55.make it work. Anyone who cares about the NHS who wants to see it
:23:55. > :24:01.sustainable, you have to recognise that reform is necessary, putting
:24:01. > :24:06.the patient at the heart and giving them real power. Let's focus on
:24:06. > :24:11.that and not go back to a sterile debate about public versus private.
:24:11. > :24:17.Mr Clegg survived quite easily last week. There was no credible attempt
:24:17. > :24:22.on his leadership. But he is on probation. How long has he got
:24:22. > :24:26.until things start to turn round for him and your party?
:24:26. > :24:29.unspoken story of this coalition is the extent to which the Lib Dems,
:24:29. > :24:33.coming into the Government for the first time in a post war period,
:24:33. > :24:40.have been disciplined. We have stepped up to the plate. How long
:24:40. > :24:44.has he got? Who has got through till the election. Even if you fall
:24:44. > :24:49.behind UKIP in some of the polls? The party is united behind Nick
:24:49. > :24:53.Clegg. In time, people will see that he did the right thing for the
:24:53. > :24:58.country. Political stability is a priceless commodity in turbulent
:24:58. > :25:01.economic times. Nick Clegg has delivered that. So even if you are
:25:01. > :25:06.way back in the polls and Mr Clegg's personal ratings are in the
:25:06. > :25:11.dirt, he still takes you into the 2015 election? He is remarkably
:25:11. > :25:15.resilient, and you can nip around chasing opinion polls. That does
:25:15. > :25:21.not do any good. Be the right thing for the country, and people might,
:25:21. > :25:25.in time, reward you. It didn't work for Winston Churchill. Let's see if
:25:25. > :25:29.it works for you and Mr Clegg. Now, Ed Miliband has the unions to
:25:29. > :25:34.thank for getting the top job, but the Labour leader and a new breed
:25:34. > :25:37.of left wing union boss look set to be on a collision course. Union
:25:37. > :25:41.leaders are increasingly militant and the government's spending cuts
:25:41. > :25:45.gives them a target. They have even instructed the TUC to look into the
:25:45. > :25:49.practicalities of organising a general strike. We have not had one
:25:50. > :25:52.of these since 1926, and that set the unions back for a generation.
:25:52. > :25:56.So should Ed Miliband stand shoulder to shoulder with his
:25:56. > :26:00.comrades and financial backers, or is that just a dream from the
:26:00. > :26:10.Trotskyite fantasy playbook? Susana Mendonca went Manchester to see
:26:10. > :26:13.whether union activists are still backing Ed.
:26:13. > :26:19.Their position is clear, but shoot the man who they made King be
:26:19. > :26:22.shouting as loudly as they do about it? After all, the Labour Party was
:26:22. > :26:26.born out of the trades union movement, and that is a link that
:26:26. > :26:30.is celebrated here at the People's History Museum, which is also in
:26:30. > :26:34.Manchester, where Labour is holding its conference. There are bound to
:26:34. > :26:39.be some trade unionists there who would like to see Ed Miliband go a
:26:39. > :26:43.darker shade of red. In the museum's very own co-operative shop,
:26:43. > :26:46.I meet two trades unionists from the north-west and think the Labour
:26:46. > :26:51.leader is not doing enough to support their action against
:26:51. > :26:54.spending cuts. They seem to be being very negative towards unions
:26:54. > :26:59.at at the moment, bearing in mind that it was the unions who put them
:26:59. > :27:04.in place and established the Labour Party. Now for some reason, the
:27:04. > :27:09.Labour Party seems to be distancing itself from the unions. We tried
:27:09. > :27:14.everything else before we go on shrike. We have on October 20th
:27:14. > :27:18.demonstration in London again. Ed could make a clear message about
:27:18. > :27:22.that to the people of the UK. was the big three unions that
:27:22. > :27:27.tipped the scales in Ed's favour at the Labour leadership contest,
:27:27. > :27:31.despite his brother David having the party members' favourite. But
:27:31. > :27:36.when the unions took a day of action, the younger Miliband did
:27:36. > :27:41.not back them. These airstrikes are wrong. At a time when negotiations
:27:42. > :27:51.are still going on, these strikes are wrong. We get it. But at the
:27:51. > :27:55.TUC last year, he felt the unions' wrath. So what to do? Unions are a
:27:55. > :27:59.fundamental part of the Labour Party. They still control half the
:27:59. > :28:04.votes at the Labour conference. Four in every �5 given as donations
:28:04. > :28:11.to the party have come from the unions. They have to embrace some
:28:11. > :28:15.of the cause of trade unions. Where will do his job and they will be
:28:15. > :28:18.theirs. The edge of has been to ratchet up the ante. Last year
:28:18. > :28:23.almost 1.4 million working days were lost to strike action, a 20
:28:23. > :28:28.year high, but that is lower than in the 1980s, where an average of
:28:28. > :28:32.7.2 million days were lost every year. Earlier this month, the TUC
:28:32. > :28:38.conference voted to look at the practicalities of holding a general
:28:38. > :28:43.strike. We have not had one of those since 1926. But what hand
:28:43. > :28:46.might Ed Miliband plate? Are I think he will feel the need to
:28:46. > :28:51.appeal to Middle England and fend off the Conservatives by attacking
:28:51. > :28:56.the trade unions. If he does that, they will come biting back. They
:28:57. > :29:01.pay his bills, and they will point that out. As the party to others,
:29:01. > :29:11.the eternal question remains. Is it time for Labour to modernise and
:29:11. > :29:16.
:29:16. > :29:25.distance itself from its pay Now, the general secretary of the
:29:25. > :29:31.Public and Commercial services union, Mark Serwotka, joins me. So,
:29:31. > :29:36.Mark Serwotka, what's the point of a general strike? Well, the trade
:29:36. > :29:40.unionists that we represent, more than 6 million people, are facing
:29:41. > :29:45.an unprecedented onslaught, cuts in living standard on the scale of the
:29:45. > :29:48.1930s, 1.3 million jobs due to go by the next general election, a
:29:48. > :29:52.pension age which is now higher than any other country in Western
:29:52. > :29:56.Europe. In addition, members of our family are seeing the biggest
:29:56. > :30:01.onslaught on welfare we have ever seen. �30 billion worth of welfare
:30:01. > :30:03.cuts, while we have �30 billion worth of tax cuts for the rich. The
:30:03. > :30:07.feeling amongst the unions is that there has never been such a
:30:07. > :30:10.desperate time as this. We think we are winning the arguments, but
:30:11. > :30:15.nothing is shifting the Government from its current course. Therefore,
:30:15. > :30:18.it has got to be legitimate to defend the interests of the members
:30:18. > :30:22.and their communities. If you're going to do that and take strike
:30:22. > :30:26.action, it is a fact of life that the more of you do that together,
:30:26. > :30:30.the more effective it will be. you went down that road, of a
:30:30. > :30:33.general strike, do you think there is any chance, of Ed Miliband or
:30:34. > :30:37.any mainstream politician, supporting it? If I listen to what
:30:37. > :30:42.I have heard this morning, I would say the answer is no. But I think
:30:42. > :30:47.they would be making a massive mistake. Phil Collins, if there was
:30:47. > :30:52.a general strike, the only option to Mr Miliband would be to condemn
:30:52. > :30:58.it, surely? I think it would be. I think Mark Serwotka has already
:30:58. > :31:02.conceded a point. Let's look at the practicality of a general strike,
:31:02. > :31:07.and in fact, there is no practical possibility of it. It would have no
:31:07. > :31:10.impact at all on the Government, who would carry on their course, as
:31:10. > :31:14.Mark Serwotka has admitted. Ed Miliband would not think it was a
:31:14. > :31:19.good idea, and even if he did, it would make no sense for him
:31:19. > :31:22.politically to back it, so it would achieve nothing. I have not
:31:22. > :31:25.conceded it would have no effect on the Government. What I have said is
:31:25. > :31:29.that everything we have done up to now has not changed the mind of the
:31:29. > :31:33.Government. It is my belief that if we get one million people marching
:31:33. > :31:37.through London in three weeks' time, followed by strike action on a very
:31:37. > :31:40.large scale, across the professions, in the public and private sector,
:31:40. > :31:43.which can be done entirely within the law, then it will show the
:31:43. > :31:47.Government that they have to think again. Ultimately, the reason we
:31:47. > :31:52.say that is because the people we represent know that if we do not
:31:52. > :31:56.oppose what is happening, they will regret it for decades to come.
:31:56. > :32:00.really think the Government would say, OK, then, we're going to stop
:32:00. > :32:05.this course which we have embarked upon, and all of a sudden, we are
:32:05. > :32:08.going to have a new plan. It is absolutely inconceivable. If you
:32:08. > :32:12.had the whole of the public behind you, then it would be feasible, but
:32:12. > :32:15.in fact, you will not, because there is not the Wellspring of
:32:15. > :32:19.support for a general strike. There's a lot of sympathy and anger
:32:19. > :32:22.about particular things. Opposing a general strike does not mean that
:32:22. > :32:26.you support everything the Government does. But nonetheless,
:32:26. > :32:30.to simply go out on strike generally, firstly, you will not
:32:30. > :32:34.get everybody to do so, so it will be a damp squib, and within nine
:32:34. > :32:39.days, like the last general strike, in 1926, you will be coming back
:32:39. > :32:42.with nothing achieved. It is an indulgence. You have a very
:32:42. > :32:47.pessimistic outlook. Let me tell you something about the people I
:32:47. > :32:51.represent. Most of them are on less than �20,000 a year. Their living
:32:51. > :32:56.standards have collapsed in the last five years. Their jobs are
:32:56. > :32:59.going at 4,000 each and every month, in the Civil Service alone. So, why,
:32:59. > :33:04.when you called a strike earlier in the summer, only 20% even bothered
:33:04. > :33:11.to vote, and only half of them voted to strike? Why are only 10%
:33:11. > :33:16.of your members bothering to vote for strike action? That was the
:33:16. > :33:21.voting, but what happened as a result of the threat to strike was
:33:21. > :33:27.that 1,100 permanent public sector jobs were at won in the Home Office.
:33:27. > :33:31.I was saying, if things are so bad, if this bleak, Dickensian picture
:33:31. > :33:35.you paint is accurate, why do your members not even bother to vote?
:33:35. > :33:39.One reason why I think there is a problem with turnout is that if you
:33:39. > :33:43.look at the parties, and Labour is a good example, nobody is offering
:33:43. > :33:47.any alternative or any help. Many people are affected by the gloom
:33:47. > :33:51.and despair. I'm convinced that when people understand that 80% of
:33:51. > :33:55.the cuts are still to come, when they see all the pain and misery is
:33:55. > :33:58.the tip of the iceberg, not only will they support industrial action,
:33:58. > :34:03.but I believe it will be popular with members of the public. In fact,
:34:03. > :34:06.the last time we had a mass strike, a BBC opinion poll showed the
:34:06. > :34:10.majority of people supported it, even though we would be demonised
:34:10. > :34:15.in the media. It is unfair to say that nobody else is offering any
:34:15. > :34:20.hope. I am by no means a spokesman for the Ed Miliband appreciation
:34:20. > :34:23.society, but this week he will be making a speech all about what he
:34:23. > :34:26.will call responsible capitalism, and the burden of that will be hell
:34:26. > :34:31.to get an economy which distribute wealth better, how to get wages up
:34:31. > :34:37.at the bottom end. It is exactly what he will be talking about.
:34:37. > :34:41.McCluskey, the leader of the biggest union, has called for purge
:34:41. > :34:45.of the Blairites in the Labour Party. This morning, Mr Miliband
:34:45. > :34:50.has said that Len McCluskey is wrong, but Mr McCluskey pays the
:34:50. > :34:54.bills - how long can the unions' pay for the Labour Party and not
:34:54. > :34:57.get what they want? Where else would the money go? Of course they
:34:57. > :35:01.will carry on funding the Labour Party. The task for the Labour
:35:01. > :35:04.Party is to supplement that money with extra money. As the Labour
:35:04. > :35:08.Party becomes more and more likely to form at least part of the
:35:08. > :35:11.government, then more money will be coming in. But the funding question
:35:11. > :35:15.is a separate one, it is a huge problem. But nonetheless, Mr
:35:15. > :35:18.Miliband has to resist Mr McCluskey, because his chances of becoming
:35:18. > :35:22.Prime Minister are hugely diminished if he does not. What is
:35:22. > :35:28.the point of the unions bankrolling the Labour Party, if, in your view,
:35:28. > :35:35.and that of Mr McCluskey, they get very little in return? As you know,
:35:35. > :35:39.my union does not... I understand that. A century ago, the Labour
:35:39. > :35:42.Party was founded by the unions, to speak up for working people. There
:35:42. > :35:45.are still some in the trade union movement who believe that that link,
:35:46. > :35:50.particularly if they can influence the Labour Party to move leftwards,
:35:50. > :35:54.is worth maintaining. But Ed Miliband has to understand, he does
:35:55. > :35:59.not enthused or inspire anyone, when his slogan is, we will cut
:35:59. > :36:03.slightly less, slightly less fast, but it is still going to be painful.
:36:04. > :36:06.People want to be inspired. For that, we need to say that the
:36:06. > :36:10.markets dictating social policy in Britain will be challenged, and we
:36:10. > :36:15.give hope to the millions, not gloom and despair. I understand
:36:16. > :36:22.that. It was not what I asked, but never mind. In a word, is there any
:36:22. > :36:25.chance of a general strike, or is it just fantasy? It is fantasy,
:36:25. > :36:30.there will not be a general strike, and neither should there be.
:36:30. > :36:35.think there will be mass co- ordinated strike action. Whether it
:36:35. > :36:39.is every union or not, and I personally think it will be...
:36:39. > :36:43.it be for more than a day? I think it will become a unless there is
:36:43. > :36:52.any sign of a change of direction. It is not because people want to do
:36:52. > :36:57.it, it is because we feel we have to. Coming up in just over 20
:36:57. > :37:07.minutes - I will be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.
:37:07. > :37:14.
:37:14. > :37:19.Until then, the programme across Hello and welcome to the London
:37:19. > :37:28.section of the programme. We will be going in search of some red
:37:28. > :37:32.shoots of Labour's policy ideas in London. With me for the duration
:37:32. > :37:41.this week, the Labour MP and the man heading his party's wide-
:37:41. > :37:46.ranging policy review, Jon Cruddas, as well as the Conservative member
:37:46. > :37:50.for rise will work, Mary MacLeod. It is inevitable that the effect of
:37:50. > :37:53.immigration will be featuring. London's migrant population has
:37:53. > :37:56.grown by half a million in the last seven years. Ed Miliband admitted
:37:56. > :38:05.over the summer that Labour had got things wrong in the past, and he is
:38:05. > :38:10.keen to set out a new approach. Here is the background. London is
:38:10. > :38:17.home to nearly half of the UK's migrants. The capital's total
:38:17. > :38:21.population grew by 7% between 2004 and 2011. Over the same period, the
:38:21. > :38:25.number of Londoners who were born in the UK dropped by 3%. That
:38:25. > :38:31.compares with an increase of 30% in the number of people who were born
:38:31. > :38:35.outside the UK who now live in the city. Ed Miliband used his speech
:38:35. > :38:38.in June to say that Labour had got it wrong in 2004, when they chose
:38:38. > :38:42.not to introduce immigration controls for new countries who had
:38:42. > :38:46.joined the EU that year. He said, we were too dazzled by
:38:46. > :38:50.globalisation, too disconnected from the concerns of working people,
:38:50. > :38:53.and he said that Labour needed to address areas where local talent is
:38:53. > :38:57.locked out of opportunity. Well, one of the things that Mr Miliband
:38:57. > :39:00.said he would do in government was to identify companies where
:39:00. > :39:07.migrants make up more than a quarter of the workforce, so he
:39:07. > :39:11.could tackle the skills problems which it caused in the UK born work
:39:11. > :39:15.force. I asked him what that would achieve. I think we need an early
:39:15. > :39:18.warning system in place, so that we know if local people are not
:39:18. > :39:22.filling the vacancies, and then we can make sure we get the training
:39:22. > :39:25.for them. It goes to the theme of the conference, which is about how
:39:25. > :39:29.to rebuild the economy, so that it works for working people, not just
:39:29. > :39:32.for a few people at the top of society. That is going to be an
:39:32. > :39:37.awful lot of companies in London - how much are you going to learn
:39:37. > :39:40.from that? Those kind of surveys are important, because they inform
:39:40. > :39:43.Jobcentres and local councils. You cannot make false promises on
:39:43. > :39:48.immigration. This government has made false promises, pretending
:39:48. > :39:53.they have a cat which covers everybody, but it does not. -- a
:39:53. > :39:57.cap. In the past, I believe we have been too relaxed about letting in
:39:57. > :40:00.and opening up to Eastern Europe too quickly. We should have had
:40:00. > :40:03.Transitional controls. Also, I think, we did not do enough to make
:40:03. > :40:07.sure that local workers were trained, and also, really
:40:07. > :40:13.importantly, cracking down on rogue employers, people paying less than
:40:13. > :40:20.the minimum wage. Sir, yours is an apology not just about immigration,
:40:20. > :40:24.it is about skills? Those youngsters were people who were at
:40:24. > :40:28.school under Labour. I would not put it quite that way. We have a
:40:28. > :40:32.system in this country where too often employers think, we cannot
:40:32. > :40:36.fill the vacancies, because we do not quite have the trained
:40:36. > :40:40.workforce, and so we need people from abroad. Of course, we're not
:40:40. > :40:43.going to close the borders or anything like that. But I think it
:40:43. > :40:46.is sensible to look at how we can train local people so that at least
:40:46. > :40:50.they can compete for the vacancies. I think most people watching this
:40:50. > :40:54.would think, that makes sense. lot of these jobs are unskilled,
:40:54. > :40:58.and migrants are doing those jobs because people born here do not
:40:58. > :41:01.feel they are doing them - do you think they should be doing their
:41:01. > :41:05.jobs? I certainly think people should be taking the work which is
:41:05. > :41:09.on offer, absolutely. I think it is important, and I believe in
:41:09. > :41:15.government getting young people back to work. What about the coffee
:41:15. > :41:18.shop test? Should some of these young unemployed be taking jobs in
:41:18. > :41:22.Starbucks, for example? We see a lot of foreign workers apparently
:41:22. > :41:25.working more flexibly in places like that. Yes, people should take
:41:25. > :41:29.the jobs which are available, but I do not subscribe to your point of
:41:29. > :41:32.view, which is that actually there are lots and lots of young people
:41:32. > :41:37.who do not want to work. I think there are lots of young people who
:41:37. > :41:40.are desperate for work. They are filling in CV After CV, job
:41:40. > :41:46.application of the job application, but they cannot find a job. That is
:41:46. > :41:53.the reality in London today. Having the gap of seven years before
:41:53. > :41:59.allowing Bulgarians and Romanians in, is that enough? I think we did
:41:59. > :42:03.open up to early to Poland, when we did that, earlier in the decade,
:42:03. > :42:12.and I think that was not the right thing to do. So I have said for the
:42:12. > :42:15.future, we should have Transitional controls. Jon Cruddas first, was it
:42:15. > :42:21.really mainly the speed at which people came that was the problem,
:42:21. > :42:24.rather than just the numbers? would say it was a bit of both. Our
:42:24. > :42:29.Burrow was one of the fastest changing communities in the whole
:42:29. > :42:32.of Britain. The ferocity of change was extraordinary in Barking &
:42:32. > :42:35.Dagenham. There was a danger that it became a bit of a free-for-all
:42:35. > :42:40.around the labour market. That's what we want to get stuck into next
:42:40. > :42:44.time. We came across countless people being paid under the minimum
:42:44. > :42:51.wage, really abusive landlords, employers, forms of criminality,
:42:51. > :42:54.and we have got to confront these things. Have Labour supporters
:42:54. > :42:59.forgiven you for allowing migration at the rate at which it has
:42:59. > :43:04.happened? I think we are taking a different approach on this now, and
:43:04. > :43:08.we have been upfront about some of the problems, in terms of the speed
:43:08. > :43:12.and the transitional arrangements. For example, in the future, if it
:43:12. > :43:15.is Turkey or Croatia, Ed has said that we will have maximum
:43:15. > :43:19.transitional times. On the other side of it, it is about the skills
:43:19. > :43:23.of local people, as well as the housing allocations. All of this
:43:23. > :43:30.stuff is central to our policy. People want to hear Ed speaking
:43:30. > :43:34.honestly about the issues. But his 500,000 extra migrants in this city
:43:34. > :43:39.over that period of time, is it something you're happy with, at the
:43:39. > :43:42.same time as many people leaving? city like London can deal with that,
:43:42. > :43:46.as long as the state support the local authorities which were
:43:46. > :43:50.disproportionately taking the strain. They were to the west, and
:43:50. > :43:56.they were obviously -- there were also some of the poorest boroughs.
:43:57. > :44:01.It needs active support for those authorities. Has Ed Miliband been
:44:01. > :44:04.right to apologise for what they got wrong? I think he was wrong to
:44:05. > :44:08.apologise. If you look at that period, the period when they could
:44:08. > :44:12.have introduced interim restrictions, at that time, we were
:44:12. > :44:16.facing low levels of unemployment, and employers were finding it very
:44:16. > :44:19.difficult to recruit. So, when those migrants did come over from
:44:19. > :44:23.Poland and other eastern European countries, they filled those
:44:23. > :44:27.vacancies all over the UK. They went to places that had never seen
:44:27. > :44:33.a migrant before, like the north of Scotland, and work in industries
:44:33. > :44:36.which are essential for the economy. So, in manufacturing, construction,
:44:36. > :44:40.retail and hospitality. Had they not been there to feel those
:44:40. > :44:44.vacancies, we probably would have been in a worse economic situation,
:44:44. > :44:48.and actually gone into recession earlier. So, how much good is it
:44:48. > :44:53.going to be to find out from companies who have work forces of
:44:53. > :45:03.25% migrant, what are they going to learn from that? Will they be able
:45:03. > :45:07.
:45:07. > :45:14.to deal with the school's problems? We already know the sectors in
:45:14. > :45:18.which migrants are concentrated. The role of Jobcentres is to ensure
:45:18. > :45:25.that people have the skills and qualifications for jobs in the
:45:25. > :45:31.local economy. This is part of a package. We are looking at
:45:31. > :45:35.extending the gangmasters Licensing, covering different sectors that
:45:35. > :45:39.have been disproportionately the sector that migrants have moved to.
:45:39. > :45:49.We want an early warning system so that we know if there is trouble
:45:49. > :45:52.brewing in certain said -- sectors. We need to know the full picture.
:45:52. > :45:56.It is difficult for central government to keep abreast of it.
:45:56. > :46:00.They have a census every ten years, but that is no good in terms of
:46:00. > :46:04.understanding the tempo of these demographic movements. As a
:46:04. > :46:07.government, we need to confront some of the concerns. If you are
:46:07. > :46:12.earning �9 an hour and that goes down to �6.50 an hour, you will
:46:12. > :46:18.have something to say about it. What do you say about 500,000
:46:18. > :46:22.coming in over the last seven years. London can absorb them. I think
:46:22. > :46:25.Labour failed on immigration. need to recognise what economic
:46:25. > :46:29.migrants can deliver for the country. They made a huge
:46:29. > :46:33.contribution. There are many entrepreneurs in my constituency of
:46:34. > :46:40.Hounslow. Many have added real value to this country. That is
:46:40. > :46:46.important. At the same time, you have to control immigration. Labour
:46:46. > :46:54.did nothing on the transitional controls from the EU countries.
:46:54. > :46:58.much of a difference Does your cap make? Or we have spent a lot of
:46:58. > :47:05.time on the students, because we want the best students here, but we
:47:05. > :47:08.want to get rid of any abuse of the system. How is the cap working?
:47:08. > :47:14.few speed to a lot of employers, they would say it is not working.
:47:14. > :47:18.They have had difficulties filling skilled positions. Why don't we
:47:18. > :47:21.have the skills in this country? Why aren't the business is working
:47:21. > :47:25.with the schools, colleges and universities to see what skills
:47:25. > :47:28.they need to the future and building those? A lot of employers
:47:28. > :47:32.would say they are doing that already. There are deficiencies in
:47:32. > :47:37.our training system, and Ed Miliband said in his speech that
:47:37. > :47:41.there needs to be more government support for employers to train more.
:47:41. > :47:44.In our research, employers have said they do work with schools, but
:47:45. > :47:48.there will always be a need to recruit some people in niche
:47:48. > :47:54.positions when you don't have that particular degree subject or
:47:54. > :47:58.specialisation. We have always allowed for exceptional talent.
:47:58. > :48:03.will you be keeping the cap, Jon Cruddas? We are looking at it as
:48:03. > :48:11.part of our review of that whole area. We have not got a specific
:48:11. > :48:15.position on it, but it is something we are monitoring.
:48:15. > :48:19.Let's move on. This may, in the mayoral election, Ken Livingstone
:48:19. > :48:23.was defeated and that it was the first time Londoners gave their
:48:23. > :48:26.verdict on a Labour manifesto under Ed Miliband. One London council is
:48:26. > :48:30.putting some of the ideas into practice, and it is not Labour,
:48:30. > :48:34.interestingly. Our reporter went to Tower Hamlets to investigate.
:48:34. > :48:40.The spy being rejected by the electorate, there is one corner of
:48:40. > :48:44.the capital where key parts of Ken's deal for London are becoming
:48:44. > :48:49.a reality. In the East End, the local council has adopted three
:48:49. > :48:52.ideas, bringing back the education maintenance allowance, supported
:48:52. > :48:56.the Energy co-operative and a London living rent scheme. Tower
:48:56. > :49:00.Hamlets is not actually a Labour council. People who voted for an
:49:00. > :49:05.independent mayor. But on the other side of the road, it is a Labour
:49:05. > :49:08.council, Hackney. And the people there, like every other Labour
:49:08. > :49:11.borough, are not finding Ken Livingstone's policies are
:49:11. > :49:14.implemented with the same enthusiasm. It is not as strange as
:49:14. > :49:18.it seems. The Mayor of Tower Hamlets used to be in the Labour
:49:18. > :49:22.Party before being expelled and running as an independent.
:49:22. > :49:27.Nevertheless, Ken supported him in his election campaign, and he
:49:27. > :49:31.filled key positions in his office with former advisers from City Hall.
:49:32. > :49:36.What does this version of Ken's London look like on the ground? EMA
:49:36. > :49:40.was a payment made to 16-19-year- olds in education whose parents
:49:40. > :49:43.were not well off. Ryan says that when the coalition scrap it, he
:49:43. > :49:50.considered whether he could continue in education. Did not
:49:50. > :49:54.expect to be paid to go to school, but it is not possible to go to
:49:55. > :49:57.school without some funding. You have to pay for books and travel.
:49:57. > :50:01.Ken promised to bring it back, and Tower Hamlets have brought back
:50:01. > :50:05.their own version of the scheme, but it comes at a price, which has
:50:05. > :50:09.been paid for by a raid on the reserves. Some wonder how
:50:09. > :50:13.sustainable the policy is. The idea of an Energy co-operative is simple
:50:13. > :50:17.enough. Thousands of people grouped together and try to negotiate a
:50:17. > :50:21.cheaper deal on their electricity bills, on the basis that companies
:50:21. > :50:24.will give them a discount for such a big contract. One inspiration for
:50:24. > :50:28.the Livingstone team was the consumer group Which?, who earlier
:50:28. > :50:32.this year managed to group together households and save them an average
:50:32. > :50:37.�200 on the bill. I would say to Tower Hamlets, you have a tough job
:50:37. > :50:40.on your hands. Involve as many people as you can. The more people
:50:40. > :50:45.backing the scheme that you can take to the market, the better the
:50:45. > :50:50.deal you will wind. Tower Hamlets set themselves a target of getting
:50:50. > :50:53.5000 people signed up. So far, they only have 1500. The London living
:50:53. > :50:56.rent campaign is based on the idea that hostels should not pay more
:50:56. > :51:00.than a third of their income on rent. The cancer are about to
:51:00. > :51:04.commission work to see the how they can make it a reality. Other parts
:51:04. > :51:07.of Ken's manifesto are being implemented by Labour councils
:51:07. > :51:11.around the capital, but not on the scale of Tower Hamlets. The
:51:11. > :51:14.question for the party at is if not these, what ideas will they take to
:51:14. > :51:19.the future? Ed Miliband would not say during
:51:19. > :51:25.that campaign that he would restore EMA. Are you having a rethink about
:51:25. > :51:29.that? Would you like to restore it? We are looking at it. Obviously,
:51:29. > :51:34.finite money is available, so we have to be tough. But we are
:51:34. > :51:38.looking at it. But you are unlikely to restore it? Let's not get ahead
:51:38. > :51:43.of ourselves and see what we will do specifically for young people in
:51:43. > :51:48.schools. I have seen the effects of it first hand in terms of people
:51:48. > :51:53.struggling. The DMA was not just for them, it was helping their
:51:53. > :51:57.families. So how would you address that? We are looking at a package
:51:57. > :52:02.to support young kids who are struggling. There are no jobs out
:52:02. > :52:10.there. We have to keep them in education and support them. But I
:52:11. > :52:14.will not get into specific measures. A survey from 2011 said 40% fewer
:52:14. > :52:20.students were going into further education. What are you telling
:52:20. > :52:24.your constituents about that? don't think there are many that
:52:24. > :52:28.aren't going. In every school and college I visit in my constituency,
:52:28. > :52:32.I talk about the importance of aspiration. There are many
:52:32. > :52:35.opportunities out there, and young people have to believe in
:52:35. > :52:40.themselves to achieve something. But we can't provide you with the
:52:40. > :52:44.cash? They can still go and study. They can take apprenticeships.
:52:44. > :52:49.There are lots of opportunities open to them. I encourage them to
:52:49. > :52:52.take work experience. There are many things they can be doing. If
:52:52. > :53:00.they want to go into further education, they do not need to
:53:00. > :53:06.should pay back these loans until they start work. So you are happy
:53:06. > :53:11.for them to get a job if they can't afford further education?
:53:11. > :53:17.Apprenticeships are a form of further education. The poorer?
:53:17. > :53:21.anyone. There are many different choices. It is up to each
:53:21. > :53:25.individual young person to decide what is right for them. I encourage
:53:26. > :53:29.them to look for those opportunities, to get the
:53:29. > :53:33.experience and the skills, to add to their knowledge so that they can
:53:33. > :53:38.be the best they can be. Living rents as an idea, is that going to
:53:38. > :53:41.see the idea of day, the idea of rent control, trying to ensure that
:53:41. > :53:51.people do not pay more than a third of their salary in private rent?
:53:51. > :54:01.are looking at it. We don't know the solutions to all of London's
:54:01. > :54:03.
:54:03. > :54:07.housing crisis. We need to look at social housing, living rents. These
:54:07. > :54:14.are massive failures of the market, and we have to come up with radical
:54:14. > :54:17.proposals. There is no on-off switch. We have 20,000 on the list
:54:17. > :54:22.in Barking and Dagenham. These are people struggling to get a roof
:54:22. > :54:29.over their heads, and the rent for his taking up more and more of
:54:29. > :54:31.their wage. And people in Chiswick and so on are facing higher rents
:54:32. > :54:36.in the private sector and are desperate to find affordable
:54:36. > :54:42.housing, and they will get even less under your proposals. We have
:54:42. > :54:48.been encouraging housebuilding. In my borough of Hounslow, we are
:54:48. > :54:52.building more and encouraging local private and social housing. London
:54:52. > :54:57.does have a housing issue. But it is not going to happen if you are
:54:57. > :55:01.now going to allow developers not to go for 50% affordable housing.
:55:01. > :55:04.You have said to forget that target. We have a range of options. We want
:55:04. > :55:09.to give the power to local councils to make decisions on planning and
:55:09. > :55:14.what they think is needed for that area. But they will not care for
:55:14. > :55:18.people with a social need if they have that choice. Councils are very
:55:18. > :55:22.clear. They are accountable for those decisions for their local
:55:22. > :55:27.area. They will focus on the local needs of those boroughs.
:55:27. > :55:33.Cruddas, we saw Ed Miliband and Ken Livingstone during the campaign.
:55:33. > :55:36.Douglas Alexander said Labour's campaign was wrong this week. He
:55:36. > :55:40.said Ken Livingstone was dividing London into blocks with his
:55:40. > :55:45.comments about wealthy Jewish people not being likely to attract
:55:45. > :55:54.votes. Do you agree? I have not read the New Statesman's -- New
:55:54. > :55:59.Statesman article that was from. I was proud of the London campaign.
:55:59. > :56:03.We were against Boris Johnson, a force of nature, almost. Criticisms
:56:03. > :56:08.were made around the Jewish community and the way we might have
:56:08. > :56:12.passed and sliced some of the electorate. We stat a deal breaker?
:56:12. > :56:17.A lot of people were not happy with the language used around that, but
:56:17. > :56:22.generally, it was a fantastic campaign run by London Labour.
:56:22. > :56:29.settle down, because the next item is fast and furious. It is the week
:56:29. > :56:33.in 60 seconds. A year into the job, and on
:56:33. > :56:37.fighting form, Commissioner Hogan Howe said he hopes not to cut
:56:37. > :56:43.police numbers, but refused to give guarantees. We will end up more
:56:43. > :56:46.efficient. A bit Lena, a bit meaner, but effective. Lost at grammar
:56:46. > :56:49.school in south London was among the schools caught up in the
:56:49. > :56:53.leasing ripple. They were left owing nearly �2 million after some
:56:54. > :56:57.schools have paid ten times the going rate on laptops and computers.
:56:57. > :57:01.CrossRail was given a financial boost by the government in the
:57:01. > :57:04.shape of a loan guarantee scheme to avoid further delays, so it is a
:57:04. > :57:08.green light all the way. The end of the UK road, but not
:57:08. > :57:12.quite for Abu Hamza. The radical Muslim cleric used to preach at
:57:12. > :57:18.Finsbury Park mosque and has now launched a High Court appeal to
:57:18. > :57:21.halt his extradition to the US. Water everywhere in the headlines,
:57:21. > :57:25.but the story for Londoners is that there is not enough. An assembly
:57:25. > :57:34.report warned of future shortages unless action is taken to flush out
:57:34. > :57:38.bad habits. In the time we have left, let's
:57:38. > :57:43.concentrate on the police. Where are you happy to see the policing
:57:43. > :57:47.budget cut in your area? Certainly, Boris Johnson did a good job on
:57:47. > :57:51.policing in the last mayoral term. He increased the numbers of police
:57:51. > :57:57.officers on the street. It is important to have visible policing.
:57:57. > :58:02.But there is now a �500 million cut. Where should it happen? How I
:58:02. > :58:12.attended my local police community consultative group this week, and
:58:12. > :58:15.
:58:15. > :58:17.they said that they will not take from the frontline. They are going
:58:17. > :58:20.to look at things like, do they need as many management positions?
:58:20. > :58:25.Father buildings they could rationalise? Are there things they
:58:25. > :58:29.could do that are not about the visibility of policing? Do you
:58:29. > :58:34.think there is plenty of scope for cuts? What would you like to see
:58:34. > :58:38.go? By will at the Berra commander make those decisions. He would not
:58:38. > :58:42.want to make them if he did not have to. You might want to give him
:58:42. > :58:48.some guidance? He is the professional on policing, so I am
:58:48. > :58:53.happy for him to make that decision. But he is dedicated to making sure
:58:53. > :58:58.that we keep the safety of our residents as paramount. That will
:58:58. > :59:01.be his first priority. We will make sure he is still focusing on things
:59:01. > :59:05.we need in Hounslow, like focusing on domestic violence and drug-
:59:05. > :59:08.related crime. John Cruddas, whatever they do, you will not be
:59:08. > :59:12.able to reverse, because there is not the money. I actually, I agree
:59:12. > :59:17.with a lot of what was just said in terms of maintaining support for
:59:17. > :59:21.the frontline. Over the last ten years, we have transformed policing
:59:21. > :59:30.in this city and we have to maintain it. I also want to keep
:59:30. > :59:35.the borough pay based partnership. There are some issues there. I
:59:35. > :59:38.agree where the savings could be made of �500 million in terms of
:59:38. > :59:43.those back offices and duplication and the like. The parities have to
:59:43. > :59:49.be frontline police numbers and secondly the strategic partnership
:59:49. > :59:59.across the boroughs. This police do a great job in London we have seen
:59:59. > :00:09.
:00:09. > :00:13.in the Olympics. On that note, we In a moment, we will look ahead to
:00:13. > :00:20.the big stories which will dominate politics next week, with our panel.
:00:20. > :00:24.But first, the news. Good afternoon. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has
:00:24. > :00:30.said he would stand up to powerful interest groups on behalf of the
:00:30. > :00:34.hard-working majority. Mr Miliband said he would take on the big banks
:00:34. > :00:41.and his own trade union supporters, as he seeks to rebuild the British
:00:41. > :00:44.economy. Our political correspondent reports. The slogan
:00:44. > :00:48.is Rebuilding Britain, but Labour also has to rebuild the trust which
:00:48. > :00:53.it lost at the last election, and convince voters that Ed Miliband is
:00:53. > :00:57.a potential Prime Minister. He was recognised by this voter this
:00:57. > :01:01.morning, but although his party is ahead in the polls, his ratings
:01:01. > :01:08.remain poor. He says Labour has to change, but he will remain true to
:01:08. > :01:12.himself. Am going to do it my own way. I think in the end people
:01:12. > :01:17.respect somebody who has seriousness of purpose. It is not
:01:17. > :01:21.just Labour's Conference which is being given a makeover. From now on,
:01:21. > :01:25.the task is to find policies which are distinctive, but which do not
:01:25. > :01:30.cost lots of extra cash. He says his party will stand up to powerful
:01:30. > :01:34.forces, if necessary breaking up the banks to protect high street
:01:34. > :01:38.customers from risky operations. And he says he would scrap the
:01:38. > :01:42.income tax cut for the better off. It is a massive difference in
:01:42. > :01:45.priorities. I will stand up for the people in this country who need the
:01:45. > :01:52.help of government, who cannot just get by on their own, and a
:01:52. > :01:56.government which says, let's just cut taxes for the rich. But the
:01:56. > :02:01.trade unions make a big financial contribution to Labour, and the
:02:01. > :02:04.giant Unite union wants to use its muscle to influence party policy.
:02:04. > :02:08.But Ed Miliband says he will not give in to some of his paymasters
:02:08. > :02:13.on the issue of pay. We put jobs in the public sector ahead of pay
:02:13. > :02:16.rises. It is a difficult decision, but it is the way to keep jobs.
:02:16. > :02:19.Miliband has to convince a new generation of voters that they can
:02:19. > :02:24.trust his party to run the economy, and that they can see him in
:02:24. > :02:30.Downing Street. The number of American service personnel who have
:02:30. > :02:36.lost their lives in Afghanistan since 2001 has reached 2000. A US
:02:36. > :02:40.soldier was shot dead in the Wardak province yesterday, in what appears
:02:40. > :02:48.to have been an in cyber-attack by a member of the Afghan security
:02:48. > :02:54.forces. A large fire in Aleppo in Syria has destroyed many valuable
:02:54. > :03:00.historical sites. Pictures show flames whipping through the Old
:03:00. > :03:03.City, a UNESCO Heritage Site. It is the final day of play in the Ryder
:03:04. > :03:08.Cup, which gets under way in a few Cup, which gets under way in a few
:03:08. > :03:13.hours in Chicago. Despite dramatic late points on Saturday, Europe
:03:13. > :03:15.will have to equal the biggest comeback in Ryder Cup history, if
:03:15. > :03:25.they are going to retain the trophy. they are going to retain the trophy.
:03:25. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:29.That's the news for now. So, can Ed Miliband convince the
:03:29. > :03:34.public he is prime ministerial material? What does he really stand
:03:34. > :03:44.for? And can David Cameron keep his own side onside when it comes to
:03:44. > :03:46.
:03:46. > :03:50.Europe? These are all questions for the week ahead. Nick, the
:03:50. > :03:53.Westminster consensus is that Labour is ahead in the polls, but
:03:53. > :03:59.they say the leader is soft - what do they mean by that, and is it
:03:59. > :04:04.true? -- the lead is soft. It means that yes, they are ahead in the
:04:04. > :04:08.polls, but when you drill down into the specifics, he looks pretty bad.
:04:08. > :04:13.In a cheeky move this weekend, the Conservatives released some figures
:04:13. > :04:17.from a private sundeck, which showed that 65% of Labour voters
:04:17. > :04:23.would prefer David Miliband, and it showed that a huge number of voters
:04:23. > :04:27.regard Ed Miliband as weak. But the scrutiny has not begun yet. It is
:04:27. > :04:31.only in 2014-15 that the media and the public turn their guns towards
:04:31. > :04:36.the opposition. If you look at David Cameron's pour in support in
:04:36. > :04:42.the last parliament, it fell by half between the beginning of 2009
:04:42. > :04:46.and 2010. Even Tony Blair, who ended up winning by 13% in the
:04:46. > :04:51.popular vote had a lead which was twice as big at the beginning of
:04:51. > :04:55.1996. So, leaders of opposition parties lose support very steeply
:04:55. > :05:00.in the last year. So, you have to build up a big buffer, and what he
:05:00. > :05:05.has got at the moment is not enough. Here is an example. One very senior
:05:05. > :05:09.Labour figure that I spoke to this week had looked through labour's
:05:09. > :05:14.annual report and look at how many new members they had put on in the
:05:14. > :05:18.last year, and he claimed it was something like 14 new members. That
:05:18. > :05:22.should be worrying for the party. Neil Kinnock was sometimes 20
:05:22. > :05:26.points a head of Margaret Thatcher, and look where that ended up. Seven
:05:26. > :05:31.or eight months ago, Ed Miliband was looking week after last year's
:05:31. > :05:34.conference speech, which did not work out. Then, the other party
:05:34. > :05:38.leaders picked up his theme, Cameron faltered because of the
:05:38. > :05:42.economy, and everybody thought, Ed Miliband is looking pretty strong.
:05:42. > :05:47.But you get back to the fundamental point, when you look at the
:05:47. > :05:50.detailed figures, he is not cutting through. I would say his biggest
:05:50. > :05:54.achievement is that Labour is by far the most unified of the three
:05:54. > :05:58.main parties. But has he achieved that unity by not challenging his
:05:58. > :06:01.party very much ideological? If you think of all of the biggie
:06:01. > :06:06.interventions he has made, whether it is bashing Murdoch or calling
:06:06. > :06:10.for a banking inquiry, it is fairly comfortable stuff for his party.
:06:11. > :06:15.The danger is that you get unified in what Tony Blair described as the
:06:15. > :06:19.comfort zone. I assume the aim this week will be to give the public,
:06:19. > :06:24.and the party, a sense of direction, even if we do not get many policies,
:06:24. > :06:29.a sense of where they are going, and to kind of humanise Ed, can it
:06:29. > :06:32.be done? I think that could be mission impossible. The other
:06:32. > :06:36.interesting thing that they are trying to do this week is to show a
:06:36. > :06:39.different type of opposition politics. We have spoken a bit
:06:39. > :06:44.about the fact that they do not seem to have very many policies.
:06:44. > :06:49.But what they are trying to do differently, things like the policy
:06:49. > :06:53.we had which was announced a couple of days ago, more of an initiative
:06:53. > :06:59.than a policy, wanting to encourage communities to use their collective
:06:59. > :07:03.buying power. To buy electricity, for example. But the big problem
:07:03. > :07:08.that all political parties have is the public saying, you're all the
:07:08. > :07:11.same, let's just give the coalition another chance, or let's give the
:07:11. > :07:15.Tories another chance. So what they're trying to do, with this
:07:15. > :07:18.type of initiative, is to show that even in opposition, we, the Labour
:07:18. > :07:22.Party, can actually make people's lives better. The Conservatives
:07:22. > :07:27.clearly think that Mr Gillett and he is the weakest link. Let's look
:07:27. > :07:37.at this poster that they have been putting up. -- that Mr Miliband is
:07:37. > :07:39.
:07:39. > :07:42.the weakest link. Is there not a slight sense of desperation, that
:07:42. > :07:46.for a moment -- for the moment, the Tories think almost the only thing
:07:46. > :07:50.they have going for them is Ed Miliband? Yes, when you speak to
:07:50. > :07:55.them, it gets back to the fundamental point, we think our
:07:55. > :08:00.greatest asset is Ed Miliband. But I think the fundamental problem
:08:00. > :08:04.that the Labour Party has, and this was highlighted where Harriet
:08:04. > :08:07.Harman slipped up in that Spectator interview, is that Ed Balls has a
:08:07. > :08:10.very, very complicated position. That position is that in this
:08:10. > :08:14.Parliament, we're going to trash this Government for cutting too
:08:14. > :08:18.quickly. Five seconds before the general election, we, the Labour
:08:18. > :08:21.Party, are going to say, because this government has done so badly,
:08:21. > :08:26.we are going to have to accept their spending plans for the next
:08:26. > :08:32.two years. It is a position which looks great on paper, but in
:08:32. > :08:35.reality, what they're doing is, not using this time and this Parliament,
:08:35. > :08:41.not to set out absolutely everything they are going to do,
:08:41. > :08:45.but to build up their credibility on the economy. What struck me
:08:45. > :08:48.about that poster was the timing of it. It says to me that the Tories
:08:48. > :08:52.are worried that their message on the need for austerity is beginning
:08:52. > :08:56.to fade a little, and that people are losing faith in that as a
:08:56. > :09:01.strategy. Also, I think those posters are now beginning to look a
:09:01. > :09:07.little bit outdated, and they are a little bit of an outdated
:09:07. > :09:11.campaigning tool. I do not know if they resonate. One of you might
:09:11. > :09:15.like to ask the Tories how many they actually put up. My view is
:09:15. > :09:20.that they bring 'em on for the TV cameras, and they do not spend any
:09:20. > :09:24.money to stick them up around the country. Speaking of the Tories,
:09:24. > :09:28.again, some commentators thought that Mr Cameron - and you were in
:09:28. > :09:33.Brazil with him - had dangled the idea of a European referendum again
:09:33. > :09:37.in front of the British people, but I'm not so sure. Let's have a look
:09:37. > :09:41.at what he actually said. I do not think it is in Britain's interests
:09:41. > :09:44.to leave the European Union, but I do think that what there is
:09:44. > :09:47.increasingly coming the time for is a new settlement between Britain
:09:47. > :09:55.and Europe, and I think that new settlement will require fresh
:09:55. > :09:57.consent. Why this is happening... So, a new referendum good stead in
:09:57. > :10:02.the next Parliament, I think there will be opportunities for a fresh
:10:02. > :10:05.settlement, and for a new consensus. There is a reason why. The euro is
:10:05. > :10:09.a currency with 17 different currencies. I think increasingly
:10:09. > :10:12.one currency will mean one economic policy. They are going to change,
:10:12. > :10:17.which will give us opportunities for changing our relationship with
:10:17. > :10:22.Europe. He was asked if fresh consent meant a referendum, he
:10:22. > :10:26.fudged the answer - but I would suggest the British voter is fed up
:10:26. > :10:31.with Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems promising referendums
:10:31. > :10:35.that they never get, and this kind of opaque language about fresh
:10:35. > :10:38.consent cuts no ice whatsoever. think the British people are fed up
:10:38. > :10:42.with a lack of clarity. David Cameron clearly wants us to think
:10:42. > :10:45.that he is floating the idea of a referendum, but he does not want to
:10:45. > :10:48.actually say that, because he does not know how long these
:10:48. > :10:52.negotiations will take, and he does not want to go into those
:10:52. > :10:55.negotiations slamming a referendum on the table, because the other
:10:55. > :10:59.leaders and the European Union will take fright. The problem is, he has
:10:59. > :11:03.got UKIP breathing down his neck ahead of the 2014 European
:11:03. > :11:07.parliamentary elections. They may win it. They have a very clear
:11:07. > :11:09.position - get out. David Cameron clearly does not want to leave the
:11:10. > :11:14.European Union, but if he does not have a clear position on a
:11:14. > :11:18.referendum, he's going to struggle with UKIP. I think he does have a
:11:18. > :11:22.clear position, he just does not want to tell us. I think he will
:11:22. > :11:27.definitely offer a referendum. I think it is all about the timing of
:11:27. > :11:30.when they announce that that will be in their manifesto. I thought
:11:30. > :11:34.the telling words were, next Parliament. He thinks he can delay
:11:34. > :11:43.a referendum until the next Parliament. I am not so sure. This
:11:43. > :11:48.month, a Jose Manuel Barroso said he envisages an organisation of --
:11:48. > :11:52.Federation of nation-states. Federation of nation states, not
:11:52. > :11:56.United States. There will be a referendum on a treaty negotiation
:11:56. > :12:00.for fiscal union, which will need our consent, although we will not
:12:00. > :12:03.be part of it. David Cameron will put some demands on the table to
:12:03. > :12:08.repatriate powers, which will probably be quite limited social
:12:08. > :12:14.and employment laws. So he will have a referendum to say, I, David
:12:14. > :12:17.Cameron, have brought back social and employment laws. If the
:12:17. > :12:21.federation of nation-states is as substantial as Jose Manuel Barroso
:12:21. > :12:25.is implying, then unless he secures more than these cosmetic changes,
:12:25. > :12:29.it will be very difficult for him to advocate staying in without
:12:29. > :12:33.completely splitting his party. I come back to my original point -
:12:33. > :12:36.this kind of language, he may be tap dancing on the head of up in,
:12:36. > :12:40.it may keep his spin doctors happy, but it does not cut with the
:12:40. > :12:43.British people. I do not think it is sustainable, but he has to
:12:43. > :12:47.string it out as long as he can, because I think he wants to pledge
:12:47. > :12:51.that he will put a referendum as one of the main things in the Tory
:12:51. > :12:57.manifesto for next around. And I think he wants to do that just
:12:57. > :13:01.before the 2014 European elections. I think it is a lot of day by day,
:13:01. > :13:10.month by month calculations as to what is prudent and expedient.
:13:10. > :13:14.Angela Merkel does not want to do anything until next year's election.
:13:14. > :13:20.That's it for today. I will be back tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock on
:13:20. > :13:25.BBC Two, for life coverage of Ed Balls' speech to the Labour Party