:00:42. > :00:46.For good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. After another
:00:46. > :00:51.shambolic week for the government, it is fight back time. They have
:00:51. > :00:55.chosen crime. The Prime Minister is about to get tougher on criminals
:00:55. > :01:03.and elections for the police and crime commissioners are three weeks
:01:03. > :01:07.away. We are joined by Home Secretary Theresa May to talk about
:01:07. > :01:17.that, Andrew Mitchell, and Gary McKinnon. That is the Sunday
:01:17. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:24.interview. We will suffer on the -- statutory
:01:24. > :01:30.regulation mean less scrutiny of celebrities like Jimmy Savile? We
:01:31. > :01:35.will have Neil Wallis. The agony over Andrew Mitchell and the energy
:01:36. > :01:39.policy shambles have put a smile on Labour's face. We were asked
:01:39. > :01:47.whether good economic news around the corner could wipe it off.
:01:47. > :01:57.In London, the mayor once more influence over the schools in the
:01:57. > :02:01.capital. What difference could he With me, the best and the brightest
:02:01. > :02:08.political panel in the business - Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, and
:02:08. > :02:13.for one week only, standing in for Nick Watt, our second favourite
:02:13. > :02:16.Polly Toynbee. Expect wit and wisdom, the usual laughing when
:02:16. > :02:23.they don't know what they're talking about and tweeting during
:02:23. > :02:33.the programme. The fall-out involving Jimmy Savile shows no
:02:33. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:40.sign of abating. Tomorrow the BBC's Panorama programme will investigate
:02:40. > :02:45.the Newsnight decision - Panorama this as Newsnight like alien versus
:02:45. > :02:52.predator. George Entwistle will face questions from the Commons
:02:52. > :02:57.culture select committee about what he knew and when. This morning Greg
:02:57. > :03:03.Dyke speaks to Andrew Marr about the developing scandal, the former
:03:03. > :03:08.director general. I think the BBC made two early mistakes, firstly
:03:08. > :03:12.the statements about this were not strong enough, not saying this is a
:03:12. > :03:18.really serious issue - it is not enough to say we looked in our
:03:18. > :03:23.files. Secondly, when they started saying the Newsnight programme was
:03:23. > :03:29.not running for editorial reasons, you needed to explain what they
:03:29. > :03:34.were. Why did the editor of Newsnight decide this was not a
:03:34. > :03:37.strong enough programme to be broadcast? I suspect he didn't
:03:38. > :03:45.think the evidence was strong enough, but somebody needed to say
:03:45. > :03:50.that and nobody did. Isabel, the Newsnight programme was withdrawn,
:03:50. > :03:56.but it was clear they were on to something so should note that have
:03:56. > :04:02.alerted the BBC and the director general to think again about the
:04:02. > :04:08.Jimmy Savile tribute broadcast over Christmas? Yes, and I think George
:04:08. > :04:11.Entwistle expect a rough ride in his questioning. The source said
:04:11. > :04:16.they think there was a real prospect he may lose his job over
:04:16. > :04:21.this. I think it would be sad if he did because he has only had it for
:04:21. > :04:24.a short time, but I think what Greg Dyke says is quite right, that
:04:24. > :04:32.there was a fumbling in the beginning and the shock of the
:04:32. > :04:37.whole thing simply overwhelmed him. It was a bungle. The what was the
:04:37. > :04:43.bungle? Not to explain why the Newsnight story was pulled. Perhaps
:04:43. > :04:48.the Panorama programme will say why. A There is even an argument about
:04:48. > :04:51.what the story was. The BBC was originally saying this was an
:04:51. > :04:56.investigation into the police not pursuing Jimmy Savile, but now it
:04:56. > :05:02.turns out the story was about the substance of what Jimmy Savile was
:05:02. > :05:07.up to. It will be very important which it was. If it was genuine...
:05:07. > :05:17.After all, they needed to have a watertight case and we need to know
:05:17. > :05:21.how what -- watertight that case was. And there is a sense there was
:05:21. > :05:27.a civil war going on and the BBC - Panorama investigating Newsnight,
:05:27. > :05:34.e-mails being leaked even to the Daily Mail, the Mail on Sunday. It
:05:35. > :05:40.is very bloody. And it justifies the intervention from be Ed
:05:40. > :05:46.Miliband when he called in to an inquiry for what is going on in the
:05:46. > :05:50.BBC. I think that was entirely justified. We may come back to this.
:05:50. > :05:55.It has been billed as the most significant development on the
:05:55. > :06:01.police in since the Metropolitan Police were set up almost 200 years
:06:01. > :06:11.ago. Next month's elections for the newly created police and crime
:06:11. > :06:16.commissioners have been -- hardly been dominating conversations, but
:06:16. > :06:20.it is a big reform. If it has passed you by, here is a guide. It
:06:20. > :06:27.is the big idea the government hopes will transform policing in
:06:27. > :06:30.England and Wales. Next month voters will elect powerful new
:06:30. > :06:35.police and crime commissioners to replace the existing police
:06:35. > :06:39.authorities. They will receive a salary of up to �100,000 and the
:06:39. > :06:44.whole process will cost taxpayers 70 million. Supporters say there
:06:44. > :06:47.will be more transparency, the critics claim the changes risk
:06:47. > :06:51.politicising police forces and distorting decisions about where
:06:51. > :06:56.resources are targeted. The new commissioners will decide
:06:56. > :07:00.priorities for local forces, said budget and award grants. They will
:07:00. > :07:03.also appoint chief constables, although chief constables will
:07:03. > :07:09.still retain operational independence. The Conservative and
:07:09. > :07:14.Labour parties are contesting of re-election, while the Liberal
:07:15. > :07:19.Democrats and Plaid Cymru are not running candidates. If voter
:07:19. > :07:22.turnout is as low as many predict, there will be questions over the
:07:22. > :07:26.legitimacy of new commissioners before they have even started their
:07:26. > :07:30.work. In a moment we will be speaking to the Home Secretary
:07:30. > :07:38.Theresa May about plans for police and crime commissioners, but
:07:38. > :07:43.firstly how the changes will affect policing near you. Policing in
:07:43. > :07:48.Britain is always changing, driven by technology, society and the law,
:07:48. > :07:53.but who governs policing in England and Wales is facing what one former
:07:53. > :07:59.chief constable called the biggest change to policing since 1829. One
:07:59. > :08:03.elected individual wants them to replace appointed police
:08:03. > :08:10.authorities but three areas of the UK are not having these elections.
:08:10. > :08:15.London already has a PCC, but in practice it is not Boris Johnson.
:08:15. > :08:20.The role has been deputised. At the mayor has delegated his authority
:08:20. > :08:28.except for a couple of functions for me to be the head of his office
:08:28. > :08:35.for policing and crime. Because it is the capital, linking has
:08:35. > :08:38.benefits. More than in some ways isn't out rider, it is also in some
:08:38. > :08:43.ways set up to do more faster than potentially other parts of the
:08:43. > :08:47.country across the criminal justice system. In Northern Ireland, for 11
:08:47. > :08:54.years the policing Board has overseen the policing service of
:08:54. > :09:04.the Northern Ireland. It has turned politicians on nine Independents
:09:04. > :09:05.
:09:05. > :09:12.Ahmed. -- on it. I doubt whether one police and crime commissioner
:09:12. > :09:17.could represent all of the abuse that existing Northern Ireland.
:09:17. > :09:22.board success has been changing public perceptions, but the past
:09:22. > :09:26.does provide problems. We are not without our difficulties or
:09:26. > :09:31.challenge is, but we do when Dover to get agreement on most of these
:09:31. > :09:37.things, these issues, and move forward from there. The final area
:09:37. > :09:41.that is not having police and crime Commission at elections is Scotland,
:09:41. > :09:47.where policing and the governance of policing is changing quite
:09:47. > :09:52.dramatically. Scotland has just become one national force. What
:09:52. > :09:57.doesn't change is that the new chief constable is overseen by an
:09:57. > :10:00.all-star police authority. I am content that the government has its
:10:01. > :10:04.authorities, they will put their stamp on it, but there will be a
:10:04. > :10:10.strong voice from operation of rational policing as to what is
:10:10. > :10:13.required. In time that relationship between government and the police
:10:13. > :10:19.authority could be in stark contrast to that route taken in
:10:19. > :10:23.England and Wales. We seem to be at a crossroads, and Scotland is
:10:23. > :10:28.taking a different policing path But I will be candid in St I think
:10:28. > :10:38.it is a path a lot of people in England are looking at quite
:10:38. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:49.The Home Secretary Theresa May joins me now for the Sunday
:10:49. > :10:50.
:10:50. > :10:54.interview. Welcome to the programme. Looking at the Sunday newspapers
:10:54. > :10:57.this morning, many of your colleagues think David Cameron
:10:57. > :11:02.needs to get a grip and have a clear-out of his Downing Street
:11:03. > :11:07.machine - do you agree? No, if you look at the big things the
:11:07. > :11:11.government has been doing, what will matter to the voters, if you
:11:11. > :11:18.look at the decisions we have made this week and some of the things
:11:18. > :11:24.that has happened - unemployment is down, crime is down - what we're
:11:24. > :11:30.doing in immigration, those are the things that matter to voters.
:11:30. > :11:34.Downing Street machine seems to go from shambles to shambles, and this
:11:34. > :11:39.good news is not being covered. The two is down to the media what gets
:11:39. > :11:45.covered. It wasn't down to the media for the Prime Minister to
:11:45. > :11:51.make a shambles of the energy policy. From voters what matters is
:11:51. > :11:54.the values that drive the government, and we are a government
:11:55. > :11:58.that works alongside people who want to get on in life and you see
:11:58. > :12:05.that coming through in a range of decisions we are making that matter
:12:05. > :12:11.to people. So he doesn't need to do some cleaning of the Downing Street
:12:11. > :12:16.machine? The we are in mid-term, there are bumps along the way, but
:12:16. > :12:21.what people will look at are the real issues we are dealing with.
:12:21. > :12:27.had the botched energy announcement, he is now moving on to your to
:12:27. > :12:32.earth with a speech telling us prison sentences must convey a real
:12:32. > :12:36.sense of punishment, but rehabilitation is not a dirty word.
:12:36. > :12:41.Isn't that current policy? And we have been looking at rehabilitation
:12:41. > :12:46.for some time. What is happening now is we are looking across the
:12:46. > :12:51.board to make sure every part of the criminal justice system, we are
:12:51. > :12:56.doing everything we can to fight crime. Isn't that their job? What
:12:56. > :13:01.is new? Were air announcing some changes. In my area, one of the
:13:01. > :13:08.issues, if you look at organised crime gangs, we know there are
:13:08. > :13:11.middlemen with firearms that they rent out criminals. There isn't an
:13:11. > :13:18.offence for somebody to possess a firearm with the intent to supply
:13:18. > :13:24.it to somebody else. I think it is right for that to be an offence
:13:24. > :13:29.because they are as guilty as the person using it. Let me move on.
:13:29. > :13:33.Can you confirm widespread reports that you work in the vanguard of
:13:33. > :13:38.the efforts to get rid of Andrew Mitchell. And I am not going to
:13:38. > :13:42.comment on private conversations. Obviously the incident took place,
:13:42. > :13:48.Andrew apologised, the apology was accepted, the police didn't take
:13:48. > :13:56.action. You wanted him to go, didn't you? Andrew has resigned and
:13:56. > :14:01.that is the end to it. I will not talk about private conversations.
:14:01. > :14:06.suspect, as many people do, that you wanted him to go because Andrew
:14:06. > :14:11.Mitchell, the whole argument was undermining and making more
:14:11. > :14:15.difficult the already difficult job of reforming the police. No, it
:14:15. > :14:20.wasn't, and we have been reforming the police now for two-and-a-half
:14:20. > :14:25.years. We have a wide range of reforms, and we are seeing that
:14:25. > :14:32.beginning to work. Despite the fact chief constables have had to cut
:14:32. > :14:38.their budget, crime is falling, and confidence is being maintained. The
:14:38. > :14:43.big change is the one you have talked about, about police and
:14:43. > :14:47.crime commissioners. You know better than me, you were at the
:14:47. > :14:50.Police Federation, they have been angry with these reforms and it
:14:50. > :14:54.surely stands to reason Andrew Mitchell may be even angrier with
:14:54. > :14:59.you. Obviously the Police Federation did raise concerns about
:14:59. > :15:04.the reforms. Anybody who saw what happened at that conference could
:15:04. > :15:07.see for themselves but we have been talking to them because we are
:15:07. > :15:11.putting through wide-ranging reforms to give the police more
:15:11. > :15:21.discretion to give them better ability to exercise their judgment
:15:21. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:31.and greater professionalism and the Mrs Thatcher once described ITV as
:15:31. > :15:34.the last bastion of restrictive practices. Do you regard the police
:15:34. > :15:37.as an unreformed public service? There are changes that are needed
:15:37. > :15:41.that we are putting through, and what we are doing in policing is a
:15:41. > :15:45.good example of the approach the Government is taking to public
:15:45. > :15:50.services across the board, which is that it is possible to cut spending
:15:50. > :15:54.and budgets and improve the service, and we are seeing that in policing.
:15:54. > :15:58.How different world policing look in five years' time if your reforms
:15:58. > :16:01.go through? There will be a significant difference. Local
:16:01. > :16:06.people will have a voice through the commissioners they have elected
:16:06. > :16:10.to determine local policing. There will be a new National Crime Agency
:16:10. > :16:14.which will deal with serious crime, child exploitation, Border crime
:16:14. > :16:18.and economic crime. But amongst all of that, individual officers will
:16:18. > :16:23.have more discretion. They will not be operating to central government
:16:23. > :16:27.targets. They will be doing what local people want. I think the
:16:27. > :16:33.college of policing will bring more professionalism in, so it is an
:16:33. > :16:36.exciting time for policing. There is a good future ahead. We have got
:16:36. > :16:40.the best police force in the world, but we need to reform and do better.
:16:40. > :16:43.At the heart of the idea of commissioners is the idea that
:16:43. > :16:47.public priority should be reflected in police priorities. Can you give
:16:47. > :16:51.me an example of where police are currently failing to match the
:16:51. > :16:56.people's priorities? Well, I think one of the areas that has been
:16:56. > :16:59.shown by the inspectorate, actually, where there has been a concern from
:16:59. > :17:03.people is an antisocial behaviour and the approach that has been
:17:03. > :17:06.taken to that, and we have been changing the approach to that, but
:17:06. > :17:11.many people feel that if more could be done about that, fewer young
:17:11. > :17:15.people might then turned to a wider range of criminal activity or go
:17:15. > :17:19.down that criminal route. So that is one area where many people feel
:17:19. > :17:23.that that there has been a disconnect. Let's have a look at
:17:23. > :17:26.what the new Scottish chief constable said to the Sunday
:17:26. > :17:33.Politics. The changes do not affect him, but he has something
:17:33. > :17:35.interesting to say. We will not be held hostage, as it were, by highly
:17:35. > :17:40.local populist issues at the expense of the sort of things that
:17:40. > :17:43.local populations will never put on their priorities. You'll never get
:17:43. > :17:47.a local population saying, we want to devote resources to counter
:17:47. > :17:53.terrorism, that is not logical, or organised crime, that would be
:17:53. > :17:57.unusual. What They Say to that? First of all, there are aspects of
:17:57. > :18:01.policing like counter-terrorism which will be retained as a
:18:01. > :18:06.national, albeit with units in police forces around the country at
:18:06. > :18:11.regional level. The National Crime Agency will work with forces in
:18:11. > :18:15.terms of issues like organised crime. But what I say on organised
:18:15. > :18:19.crime is this, for what matters to people at there, that is what is
:18:19. > :18:23.happening on their doorsteps and in their streets, and the drugs being
:18:23. > :18:27.sold in their streets, the people who are stealing in order to fund a
:18:27. > :18:31.drug habit are actually the local end of the organised crime. That
:18:31. > :18:37.shows you what you are up against, he uses the phrase, highly local,
:18:37. > :18:39.populist issues, almost a dismissal of these concerns. This view was
:18:39. > :18:43.prevalent through the chief constables, that is your problem,
:18:43. > :18:48.isn't it? When we have the commissioners in place, I think
:18:48. > :18:51.what you will see is that they will be able to be that boys, talking to
:18:51. > :18:56.the Chief Constable about what people's priorities are at the
:18:56. > :18:59.local level, and setting the police priorities, because the Chief
:18:59. > :19:03.Constable retains operational independence. The candidates I have
:19:03. > :19:07.spoken to have got a very real understanding of the wide range of
:19:07. > :19:12.issues. I am glad to have mentioned that, let's look at some of the
:19:12. > :19:17.manifesto pledges being made. More police on the beats, every reported
:19:17. > :19:21.crime should be attended and investigated, every one, a more
:19:21. > :19:27.realistic shift and working patterns for officers, I assume to
:19:27. > :19:30.get more on the streets. Are these priorities for operational matters?
:19:30. > :19:34.No, these are about an approach that the police should be taking
:19:34. > :19:39.and reflecting the voice of local people and what local people want.
:19:39. > :19:43.People do want to see more police on the streets. A priority for an
:19:43. > :19:47.operational matter? It is a priority for the force to be able
:19:47. > :19:52.to get people out there doing the job, officers doing the job that
:19:52. > :19:55.people want them to do. How that is then done, there are issues about
:19:55. > :20:00.operational independence, but some of those issues are being addressed
:20:00. > :20:06.by some forces. Every crime to be attended and investigated, a
:20:06. > :20:09.priority, or is it an operational matter? It is perfectly reasonable
:20:09. > :20:14.for a police and crime Commissioner to say to a chief constable that
:20:14. > :20:18.they think every crime should be looked into. But is it an
:20:18. > :20:21.operational matter or a priority? You make the distinction. We have
:20:21. > :20:26.said that the chief constables retain operational independence,
:20:26. > :20:31.and it is absolutely right that they decide to to investigate, they
:20:31. > :20:34.decide who to arrest. That should not be decided by a politician.
:20:34. > :20:38.Let's look at the elections themselves, the first time we have
:20:38. > :20:42.had them in this country, three weeks away. If the turnout is low,
:20:42. > :20:46.and many think it will be very low, will that not affect the legitimacy
:20:46. > :20:51.up of the winners? There has been a lot of speculation about the
:20:51. > :20:54.turnout. We do not know until it happens. It probably will be low.
:20:54. > :20:59.There at two sets of people making sure that people know about the
:20:59. > :21:03.election. At government level, we have put at advertising to tell
:21:03. > :21:07.people about elections, neutral, but explaining what the role is and
:21:07. > :21:11.when the elections are taking place. Around the country, candidates are
:21:11. > :21:15.getting out vast amounts of literature. My own party has sent
:21:15. > :21:19.out a vast amounts of literature, getting the message out to people.
:21:19. > :21:23.In terms of the mandate, I would say this, Andrew, the police
:21:23. > :21:26.authorities at the moment have no democratic mandate to do this job
:21:26. > :21:30.of overseeing the police. The police and Crown Commissioner will
:21:30. > :21:34.have a democratic mandate from the people to do this. -- crime
:21:34. > :21:44.Commissioner. In other areas, your government thinks turnout is
:21:44. > :21:55.
:21:55. > :21:58.important, this is what Francis If turnout is too low for a strike
:21:58. > :22:03.and you want to act, surely if they are too low for police
:22:03. > :22:06.commissioners, the same applies. do not set turnouts for any
:22:06. > :22:11.elections that take place in this country. He is saying that you
:22:11. > :22:16.should. I said any collections in this country. We do see turnout
:22:16. > :22:21.very, obviously, at local elections it can be low, but I do not think
:22:21. > :22:26.it is wise to try to predict what the turnout will be. For the first
:22:26. > :22:30.time, they will have a democratic mandate that does not exist today.
:22:30. > :22:33.But don't you have yourself to blame if there is a low turnout?
:22:33. > :22:37.You have decided to hold these elections in November, no Prime
:22:37. > :22:41.Minister would go to the country in November, and the manifestos are
:22:41. > :22:48.only available online in a country with 7 million people who do not
:22:48. > :22:53.have online access. The manifestos is possible for people to get a
:22:53. > :22:58.printed copy, a phone number is being made available. As if that is
:22:58. > :23:03.going to happen! Have you done it? The website is available for people
:23:03. > :23:05.to look at. Not for 7 million. government is doing its bit in
:23:05. > :23:10.terms of the advertising campaign about the importance of the
:23:10. > :23:13.elections. Obviously, the Conservatives, Grant Shapps is our
:23:13. > :23:17.party chairman, the campaign chairman for the police and crime
:23:17. > :23:21.Commission elections, and they will be doing their bit locally to get
:23:21. > :23:27.information out and insure people know about elections and go out and
:23:27. > :23:31.vote. -- ensure. You told the Sunday Times that the free movement
:23:31. > :23:36.of people in the EU would be part of the Government's review into our
:23:36. > :23:41.relationship with the European Union. Can I remind you of article
:23:41. > :23:47.48 of the treaty of Rome, to which we have signed? Freedom of movement
:23:47. > :23:50.of workers should be secured within the community. So how would you
:23:50. > :23:55.curtail that freedom? Well, first of all, Andrew, the freedom of
:23:55. > :23:58.movement has been taken beyond what was in the treaty of Rome. It is
:23:58. > :24:03.absolutely right that it referred to freedom of movement of workers.
:24:03. > :24:07.It has gone much more widely, it has been interpreted more widely.
:24:07. > :24:10.There are three things I would say in relation to what we can do about
:24:10. > :24:15.it. First of all, we're working with other member states on the
:24:15. > :24:21.abuse of free movement that we see taking place. What is that these?
:24:21. > :24:24.Sham marriages being used, somebody from a third country outside the
:24:25. > :24:27.European Union using a sham marriage to someone in one of the
:24:27. > :24:31.member states to gain access through to a country like the
:24:31. > :24:37.United Kingdom. How many instances of that? It is a growing number of
:24:37. > :24:42.cases. How many? It is a growing concern across the European Union...
:24:42. > :24:46.Pas de not have the figure to hand, Andrew, but it is a growing concern.
:24:46. > :24:50.-- I do not have. We need to look at some of the factors that
:24:50. > :24:54.encourage people to want to come here, and yes, we look at free
:24:54. > :24:58.movement as part of this... The term does not mean a lot to people,
:24:58. > :25:01.the balance of competencies work is looking across the board and Sane,
:25:01. > :25:05.where there is the power lie to make decisions about these
:25:05. > :25:09.particular issues, with us for the European Union? What are the
:25:09. > :25:12.advantages and disadvantages? When that work is complete, we will look
:25:12. > :25:18.at whether to take that forward in any one of the areas it covers.
:25:18. > :25:22.it is still government policy that immigration will be below 100,000.
:25:22. > :25:25.We are working, and our aim is to get it down to those tens of
:25:25. > :25:30.thousands by the time of the election. I'm not going to predict,
:25:30. > :25:35.but that is what we are working for, and I think we are on course. We
:25:35. > :25:42.have seen, in the last figures, a significant drop in the number of
:25:42. > :25:46.net migrants to the United Kingdom, so we are restricting the number of
:25:46. > :25:50.non- EU economic migrants. We are cutting out the views across the
:25:50. > :25:55.student visa system, and we are having an impact. The Garry
:25:55. > :26:05.McKinnon case, finally. This is what the Daily Telegraph said. This
:26:05. > :26:07.
:26:07. > :26:11.Have you had an official complaint from the US Attorney-General about
:26:11. > :26:16.your decision? I have not had a conversation with the Attorney-
:26:16. > :26:24.General. I took my decision on the basis of the material available to
:26:24. > :26:27.me, as was open to me doo-doo. you had a complaint? I have not had
:26:27. > :26:31.a come -- a conversation. I have not had a written complaint. Is it
:26:31. > :26:34.true that you have been calling him and he will not return your calls
:26:34. > :26:38.customer we have been arranging to set up a call, and we have not yet
:26:38. > :26:42.spoken. I expect that we will be speaking about his decision. I
:26:42. > :26:47.spoke to the US ambassador on the day that the decision was made.
:26:47. > :26:51.he got a right to be angry? You wrote to the US in July to say
:26:51. > :26:55.there were no legal or medical grounds to stop the extradition.
:26:55. > :26:59.Can you confirm you sent that letter? No, there has been quite a
:26:59. > :27:05.bit in the press about what might or might not have been said. There
:27:05. > :27:09.were no categorical statements of that sort. What did you say?
:27:09. > :27:13.decision was open to me to take up until the point at which the court
:27:13. > :27:18.required me to take the decision. I took the decision on the material
:27:18. > :27:23.that was available to me. Remember, Andrew, there was evidence coming
:27:23. > :27:26.in until relatively soon before I actually took that decision.
:27:26. > :27:31.understand the grounds on which you took the decision, Home Secretary,
:27:31. > :27:34.I am not challenging that it was your decision, but in July, when
:27:34. > :27:39.you did right, did you give indications that there were no
:27:39. > :27:43.legal or medical grounds to stop the extradition? It has always been
:27:43. > :27:46.understood that the decision was mine to take finally on all the
:27:46. > :27:50.material that was available after the point at which I took that
:27:50. > :27:54.decision, and that was the basis on which I took the decision. I mean,
:27:55. > :27:58.something has clearly happened, someone in the British government
:27:58. > :28:02.told the Americans something that has made them so angry. Senior
:28:02. > :28:07.officials are saying that your relations, not the Government's,
:28:07. > :28:11.your relations with the Obama administration are finished.
:28:11. > :28:15.have a strong and secure relationship with the nicer states
:28:15. > :28:17.across a range of issues. I would give you an example of it, be
:28:17. > :28:23.strong and secure relationship with United States administration across
:28:23. > :28:26.a range of issues, national security matters, extradition, the
:28:26. > :28:32.special relationship generally. To give you an example, two days after
:28:32. > :28:35.the decision, I had a constructive meeting with the head of the
:28:35. > :28:38.director of Customs and immigration enforcement in the United States,
:28:38. > :28:42.talking about how we can carry on and build on our working
:28:42. > :28:46.relationship to the benefit of both sides. The US Attorney-General...
:28:46. > :28:52.What is clear is that we have, with the US, an extradition treaty which
:28:52. > :28:55.is important, I believe it is an important treaty for both sides,
:28:55. > :29:00.the United States and United Kingdom. It is a treaty that I
:29:00. > :29:03.believe is balanced, and we work on that basis, we want to see people
:29:03. > :29:08.extradited to the United States, as we have seen with Abu Hamza,
:29:08. > :29:13.Christopher Tappin... But the US Attorney-General has said, quote,
:29:13. > :29:17.he feels completely screwed by you. What do you say to that? I will be
:29:17. > :29:25.having a conversation with them and we will discuss the matter. I have
:29:26. > :29:29.set out the basis... It sounds like treaty generally, when I announce
:29:29. > :29:32.the decision, I did make some announcements about the process of
:29:32. > :29:36.extradition, but that treaty is important because we do not want
:29:36. > :29:40.criminals to hide behind borders. Wasn't it a bit hypocritical and
:29:40. > :29:44.maybe even inconsistent to base your decision to refuse extradition
:29:44. > :29:49.on the basis of Labour's Human Rights Act which you want to
:29:49. > :29:54.repeal? First of all, the situation exists at the moment that it is
:29:54. > :29:57.possible for a Secretary of State to refuse on human rights grounds.
:29:57. > :30:01.Now, in future, I think it is right the decision is not for the
:30:01. > :30:11.Secretary of State but for the courts, and we will be bringing
:30:11. > :30:16.
:30:16. > :30:24.We have a first-class leader at the moment, he is dealing with issues
:30:24. > :30:27.very well indeed. Home Secretary, thank you for being with us this
:30:27. > :30:34.morning. The Jimmy Savile revelations have
:30:34. > :30:43.reignited debate about the prospect of stronger press regulation. Once
:30:43. > :30:53.the report - the question will be well celebrities like Jimmy Savile
:30:53. > :30:59.be able to sleep more soundly once the press has been a coward? They
:30:59. > :31:07.are actors but the words are from working journalists. This is a new
:31:07. > :31:14.play about the press by the National Theatre of Scotland called
:31:15. > :31:23.Enquirer and there is a scene about the real-life Enquirer.
:31:23. > :31:29.implications of Leveson. What do we think will happen? I don't want my
:31:29. > :31:32.report to end up on a dusty shelf... Earlier this year, Lord Justice
:31:32. > :31:42.Leveson heard from witnesses who said their lives had been blighted
:31:42. > :31:42.
:31:42. > :31:49.by the media. It just felt like such an intrusion into such a sense
:31:49. > :31:54.of invasion. A my husband said we have asked you to stay away, no.
:31:54. > :31:58.The editor said we are going to use it anyway. Leveson is still
:31:58. > :32:02.polishing his script which will be published later in the year. One
:32:02. > :32:07.theory is he will recommend a new press regulator with the force of
:32:07. > :32:13.the law behind it. There is also a sense the inquiry is having an
:32:13. > :32:17.effect in real life newspaper offices. The can see examples where
:32:17. > :32:23.you might have expected there to have been more press coverage than
:32:23. > :32:27.there was. Take the death of Gary Speed. In normal circumstances you
:32:27. > :32:31.would have more speculation about why he killed himself, that never
:32:31. > :32:36.happened. The what about the example on the front pages now -
:32:36. > :32:43.the allegations against Jimmy Savile. To some, it is a warning
:32:43. > :32:53.about the government being too tough on the press like Rupert
:32:53. > :32:59.
:32:59. > :33:03.Murdoch who recently treated: -- At the moment passes looking for
:33:03. > :33:08.any occasion when it can put forward tighter regulation against
:33:08. > :33:13.public interest. The cast and crew of this play are going on tour to
:33:13. > :33:23.Belfast next but the big question is where is the media heading after
:33:23. > :33:24.
:33:24. > :33:32.this? Anne Diamond and Neil Wallis, former executive editor of the
:33:32. > :33:39.paper, joined me. We should point out that Neil Wallis is currently
:33:39. > :33:43.on police bail as part of the phone hacking investigation and unable to
:33:43. > :33:47.answer any questions relating to that. Why do you say regulation of
:33:47. > :33:54.the press would be good news for the Jimmy Saviles of this world
:33:54. > :33:59.when you never exposed him? I find that rather a fascinating question
:33:59. > :34:04.because what you are saying then, it will be easier if we put more
:34:04. > :34:10.restrictions on you. There are plenty of laws in this country
:34:10. > :34:15.controlling what journalists do, and frankly libel, privacy is a
:34:15. > :34:20.stick with which the press can be beaten. A former editor of the
:34:20. > :34:25.Sunday Mirror said you take on someone like Jimmy Savile, that is
:34:25. > :34:31.a big calculation. So they raise enough regulation already to
:34:31. > :34:36.inhibit investigative journalism? Bringing Jimmy Savile into the
:34:36. > :34:40.Leveson debacle is a red herring. It was not the press that one must
:34:40. > :34:46.Jimmy Savile, in fact it was the broadcast media which works under
:34:46. > :34:50.statutory regulation - the ITV. I don't see anything wrong with the
:34:50. > :34:54.price being asked, now that they have proved themselves of the
:34:54. > :35:00.inability to a self-regulated, maybe now the argument is for some
:35:00. > :35:06.sort of statutory regulation. Let's give it a go because it hasn't
:35:06. > :35:10.worked, self-regulation, let's give it a go. If the problem with
:35:10. > :35:16.bringing statute into it, it is a bit like losing your virginity. You
:35:16. > :35:20.can only use it once. Once the politicians get their hands on the
:35:20. > :35:25.levers of authority in relation to a press whose job Battista
:35:25. > :35:31.primarily hold the legislature or to account, they will then get the
:35:31. > :35:34.press they want rather than the press they deserve. It is
:35:34. > :35:40.interesting you use the word authority because that is not we
:35:40. > :35:45.have not had. We have had a press which, if you are an owner like
:35:45. > :35:52.Murdoch it has been like money, about the desire to sell newspapers,
:35:52. > :35:57.profit. If you have been in your position, it is about power. It is
:35:57. > :36:03.not about authority. What we need now is some sort of press which
:36:03. > :36:07.does have integrity. Isn't it the case that tabloid newspapers have
:36:07. > :36:11.large budgets and powers, but you have been more interested in
:36:11. > :36:20.titillating gossip about celebrities rather than on covering
:36:20. > :36:25.real wrong doing like Jimmy Savile. Sometimes. A lot of times. A lot of
:36:25. > :36:29.times, and a lot of times we have exposed a whole variety on very
:36:29. > :36:33.unsavoury activities amongst politicians. Do you believe we
:36:33. > :36:40.should allow those sorts of politicians to decide the press we
:36:40. > :36:47.have? Just this week, we have the Telegraph story about how MPs are
:36:47. > :36:52.renting out their own flat to each other, then hiring flat at the
:36:52. > :36:57.taxpayers' expense. The press revealed that. The Fiat is if you
:36:57. > :37:03.have to matriculation, which at the end his political, that is the kind
:37:03. > :37:08.of stories they will put rules in place to stop that coming out.
:37:08. > :37:16.have worked in broadcast journalism all my life. Broadcast media
:37:16. > :37:21.doesn't do much investigation. it does. It didn't do the expenses
:37:21. > :37:25.scandal. There have done plenty of other very good journalism. The
:37:25. > :37:30.fundamental weakness of your argument is you keep saying any
:37:30. > :37:34.sort of regulation which is not self-regulation, which hasn't
:37:34. > :37:40.worked,=gagging the press and it doesn't have to mean that. They
:37:40. > :37:47.haven't done the hacking story. the press did hacking as well. We
:37:47. > :37:53.can each cite examples, but the point is it doesn't follow, it
:37:53. > :37:59.isn't on segue. We can still operate within the bounds of
:37:59. > :38:06.statutory regulation. Anne Diamond speaks with experience of this. You
:38:06. > :38:11.were working in the Sun when you published photographs of her son's
:38:11. > :38:15.funeral without her permission. That is the kind of thing most
:38:15. > :38:19.people would like to see regulations, that you can't do that
:38:19. > :38:24.and it stops you -- doesn't stop you from doing proper
:38:24. > :38:30.investigations into bad people and wrongdoing. This is an unfortunate
:38:30. > :38:34.example because her memory of that and my memory of that, and I was
:38:34. > :38:41.involved in this heavily, are simply very different. That may be
:38:41. > :38:49.because of time, but we recall this differently. I remember very much
:38:49. > :38:56.that the campaign we did together, were she talked about that as one
:38:56. > :39:01.of the highlights of her career, was enormously effective. That is
:39:01. > :39:06.an example of how that power of the press can do real good, but
:39:06. > :39:12.regulation would not have stopped that either. I think we need
:39:12. > :39:17.tighter regulation. 20 years ago I would not have argued for statutory
:39:17. > :39:22.regulation, but given the experienced eye have had, now was
:39:22. > :39:27.the time to try that and see. you think that is what Leveson will
:39:27. > :39:33.command with? It is plain to me that he had no sympathy whatsoever
:39:33. > :39:37.with the tabloid press. You regulate the tabloid, you regulates
:39:37. > :39:43.the entire print media. I just asked you if you think it will
:39:43. > :39:48.happen. Yes, I do. You are watching the Sunday
:39:48. > :39:53.Politics. Coming up in 20 minutes, I will be looking at the week ahead
:39:53. > :40:03.with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics across
:40:03. > :40:05.
:40:05. > :40:08.Welcome to the London part of the programme. Later, confusion and
:40:08. > :40:13.uncertainty over where the axe will fall on policing in the capital as
:40:13. > :40:17.its very own existing elected commissioner, the mayor, seeks to
:40:17. > :40:23.find tens of millions of pounds of savings. With me today,
:40:23. > :40:28.Conservative MP Mark Field, and former Home Office Labour minister.
:40:28. > :40:33.The capital's teenagers notched up another good crop of GCSE results
:40:33. > :40:38.last year, the fastest improving pupils' in the country, but is
:40:38. > :40:43.there a role for the mayor in London's schools? He thinks so, but
:40:43. > :40:46.what? An inquiry commissioned by the mayor into education in the
:40:47. > :40:52.capital claimed this week there were 15,000 children who left from
:40:52. > :40:57.the school this year struggling in English and maths and that 28,000
:40:57. > :41:01.secondary-school left without five good GCSEs. It has recommended
:41:01. > :41:09.setting up a golf club of schools which show they are bucking the
:41:09. > :41:13.trend -- gold Club. It suggested the mayor should play a more
:41:13. > :41:23.strategic role in the development of three schools. I think there was
:41:23. > :41:27.a role, a strategic role for London as a whole to drive up standards.
:41:27. > :41:31.Any mayoral manoeuvres may well meet resistance from councils. They
:41:31. > :41:35.are making their own submission to government asking for more
:41:35. > :41:40.influence and an ability to intervene if academies are not
:41:40. > :41:48.coming up to the mark. Dr Tony sea wall was the chair of
:41:48. > :41:51.that inquiry, he joins us now. What do you make of this? Some of it can
:41:51. > :41:56.be seen to be repeating what government is supposed to be doing,
:41:56. > :42:01.but I don't have a problem with the Munden focus because there are
:42:01. > :42:06.issues in London which are not the same around the country. Certain
:42:06. > :42:10.things like the Golden Club of schools, that may be a gimmick, but
:42:10. > :42:14.some other things, the London curriculum could be quite
:42:14. > :42:19.interesting and the attempt to link schools with higher-education -
:42:19. > :42:24.some of that goes on already - the book to boost that is a really good
:42:24. > :42:28.start. I think it is good news. I take on board the question about
:42:28. > :42:33.duplication but in a time of doom and gloom about the economy, it is
:42:33. > :42:38.great to have something people feel passionately about. London is a
:42:38. > :42:42.very big area with 7.5 million people living in the capital, but
:42:43. > :42:46.it is massively polarised with some of the best success stories and
:42:46. > :42:52.some of the worst schools, and working together to see whether
:42:52. > :43:02.elements of that excellence can permeate down is a positive route.
:43:02. > :43:02.
:43:02. > :43:06.Is there room for the mayor? And what could he be doing that he
:43:07. > :43:12.isn't doing now? If you look at the question of schools getting more
:43:12. > :43:16.autonomy, that has left the former local education authority there
:43:16. > :43:19.used to service schools, their role is diminished. There is a feeling
:43:19. > :43:24.from schools now that they want some kind of sense of bringing
:43:24. > :43:29.things together and learning from each other. We are not talking
:43:29. > :43:35.about necessarily the mayor coming in to run schools, but certainly
:43:35. > :43:43.some kind of strategic Agency to bring things together. The issue of
:43:43. > :43:49.the gimmick, that is central, and that means that schools get into
:43:49. > :43:53.the club which are doing extremely well and so almost like a mutual
:43:53. > :43:58.society. They come together and other schools were learned from
:43:58. > :44:04.that. The Ofsted report judges schools and parents can make their
:44:04. > :44:08.own judgment already, can't they? Yes, but the standard to get into
:44:08. > :44:12.the golden club is very interesting. It is about whether you come to a
:44:12. > :44:18.place of excellence, where you are almost doing things which are
:44:19. > :44:23.really unusual in terms of schooling. What the key element in
:44:23. > :44:31.their is they are excellent so they can help others. It doesn't need
:44:32. > :44:35.any statutory powers so why doesn't he just do it? He is doing it.
:44:35. > :44:41.Various ground swell that once this to happen anyway and schools will
:44:41. > :44:46.join it. It is inevitable. mention the role for academies and
:44:46. > :44:50.schools sharing expertise, but we know they already do that and
:44:50. > :44:55.academies are often part of chains already and there are federations.
:44:55. > :44:59.For example of the centre of excellence we are talking about
:44:59. > :45:06.really are about trying to drive up particular standards and this is
:45:06. > :45:12.where academies are stuck. They are OK in the sense of getting grade C,
:45:12. > :45:18.but how do you get the best grade? We have called the report "going
:45:18. > :45:25.for gold, turning achievement in two excellent". He is struggling to
:45:25. > :45:30.fulfil functions with the budget cuts already, what could he do?
:45:30. > :45:35.GLA is not going to hands-on do anything of this. This is a
:45:35. > :45:39.strategic enabling exercise and it is interesting. People, symbols,
:45:39. > :45:49.ways in which people look at things and having the mayor endorse things
:45:49. > :45:50.
:45:50. > :45:54.$:/STARTFEED. A lot of schools already work together, and the key
:45:54. > :45:58.thing for me is linking schools with skills. Something that has not
:45:58. > :46:02.been mentioned, in my constituency, I have children from a range of
:46:02. > :46:05.backgrounds achieving at different levels directly linked to their
:46:05. > :46:10.ethnic background, and that is an area that any mayor of London ought
:46:10. > :46:15.to be very concerned about. Would you be happy with this as long as
:46:15. > :46:19.it is not a statutory role? I think where Tony gets it right is that
:46:19. > :46:23.this is not about layers of bureaucracy, it is about trying to
:46:23. > :46:27.raise a profile, a massive issue for many Londoners, and in the
:46:27. > :46:31.recession a lot of relatively affluent Londoners are no longer
:46:31. > :46:36.able to send their children to private education, and they will be
:46:36. > :46:43.looking to academies as the grammar schools of the 21st century. Very
:46:43. > :46:49.briefly. Nine D 1,000 places are needed. This is where the mayor is
:46:49. > :46:52.really strategic in the sense that GLA have properties... Seeing as
:46:52. > :46:57.you mentioned it, do you only want to see free schools fulfilling
:46:57. > :47:02.that? It is not the only way, there are other ways. Community schools
:47:02. > :47:08.can still happen? Of course. Around the edges, he might be able to make
:47:08. > :47:14.land available. Let 1,000 flowers bloom, let's have innovation and
:47:14. > :47:18.diversity of schooling. Can I say, on the free school issue, if this
:47:18. > :47:23.brings better co-ordination to this policy, which has a lot of problems,
:47:23. > :47:28.that can only be a better thing. This lesson is running over, we
:47:28. > :47:31.will return to the issue. London was seen as the model for
:47:31. > :47:34.police commissioners up and down the land, an elected mayor with
:47:34. > :47:38.oversight of the Metropolitan Police, but what will the future
:47:38. > :47:41.shape of the force be? Wide-ranging reorganisation is on the cards
:47:41. > :47:46.because of the need to cut tens of millions of pounds from the Budget.
:47:46. > :47:56.As this happens, can frontline policing be maintained and crime be
:47:56. > :47:59.
:47:59. > :48:02.London has a new sheriff in town, Stephen Greenhalgh, deputy mayor
:48:02. > :48:09.for policing, the man using the new police powers on Boris Johnson's
:48:09. > :48:13.behalf. Top of his list, what he calls the Twenty Twenty Twenty
:48:13. > :48:18.Challenge, a cut in crime, boosting public confidence, but at the same
:48:18. > :48:23.time delivering a cut in the Budget. Exactly how he will find the money
:48:23. > :48:27.is not clear. The difficulty is this, 80% of the police budget goes
:48:27. > :48:31.on staffing, and the mayor has promised to give police numbers on
:48:31. > :48:35.roughly the current level, 32,000. So the savings have income from
:48:35. > :48:41.somewhere else, and City Hall have a radical shake-up of policing in
:48:41. > :48:47.mind. Already under way is a reduction in staff who on not fully
:48:47. > :48:52.warranted police. The number of community support officers has
:48:52. > :48:58.halved from March 2010 down to 2,300 last month, or that figure is
:48:58. > :49:02.likely to creep up again. Other staff also saw their numbers
:49:02. > :49:07.reduced and could well fall further. On top of that, there are 6,000
:49:07. > :49:10.police currently working in back- office jobs, and roughly 20% of the
:49:10. > :49:13.force, and the Metropolitan Police are determined to get them into
:49:13. > :49:17.neighbourhood policing roles, but that could come at a risk. The air
:49:17. > :49:19.are roles in the back of this, whatever that is, which need
:49:19. > :49:24.policing skills, they need to have warranted offices filling those
:49:24. > :49:28.roles. If you are taking phone calls from members of the public,
:49:28. > :49:32.that is perhaps a call centre type is you, and that is different.
:49:32. > :49:36.changes to the police state are expected. Even the famous Scotland
:49:36. > :49:40.Yard could be sold. Police stations will close and front counters were
:49:40. > :49:44.the public can walk in will go with them. City Hall says that when one
:49:45. > :49:47.of the shut, replacement should be found elsewhere. On the ground,
:49:47. > :49:52.that does not seem so straightforward. This is Cavendish
:49:52. > :49:56.Road police station in Lambeth, still operation, but closed to the
:49:56. > :50:00.public until further notice. There have been no replacements for them.
:50:00. > :50:03.Confusion over mayoral policy does not end there. Police have
:50:03. > :50:08.currently been organised along the Elektra map, with each borough
:50:08. > :50:11.having its own command. Police briefing documents seen by the
:50:11. > :50:15.Sunday Politics explain how this will change, saying that senior
:50:15. > :50:18.management and support services will be shared between boroughs.
:50:18. > :50:21.The London Assembly, council members and other politicians
:50:21. > :50:26.across London have been told this could mean borough commanders will
:50:26. > :50:31.have to serve two areas, something the mayor denied this week. We are
:50:31. > :50:36.not getting rid of borough commanders, all right? But they are
:50:36. > :50:41.merging, so you may have one person in charge of two boroughs. No, that
:50:41. > :50:47.is not the intention. That is what is being consulted on currently.
:50:47. > :50:50.do not care what piece of paper you have got. It is from the Met!
:50:51. > :50:55.Whatever confusion there may be, the pressing need to find savings,
:50:55. > :51:02.the mayor's deputy will have to find answers soon enough.
:51:02. > :51:04.The deputy mayor for policing, Stephen Greenhalgh, is here now.
:51:04. > :51:09.Let's just deal with the commander's first, then we can go
:51:09. > :51:12.on to the wider picture. Can you clarify that, is it possible that
:51:12. > :51:19.some commanders will be lost and you will have a commander across
:51:19. > :51:22.two boroughs? Her I will start by saying that London is very clearly
:51:22. > :51:25.divided by the boroughs, and they are very important. As a former
:51:25. > :51:29.Barra leader, there is no way to wipe away that point of
:51:29. > :51:33.accountability, and there is no intention in the foreseeable future
:51:33. > :51:38.for sharing borough commanders. The mayor has made that clear. No plan,
:51:38. > :51:41.not even considered as a proposal. It is not being considered as
:51:41. > :51:46.something that we would entertain, and that is the mayor's office for
:51:46. > :51:51.policing and crime. You have a document that is looking at sharing
:51:51. > :51:53.services, and you should not necessarily have 32 back offices,
:51:53. > :51:56.32 Investigation Department. There are opportunities to share
:51:56. > :52:01.resources to catch more criminals and a more efficient service, that
:52:01. > :52:07.is something that is up for grabs. On to more philosophical matters,
:52:07. > :52:11.how ripe for reform are the police? We have a job of work to do. Let's
:52:11. > :52:15.look at where we saw growth over the last 10 or 12 years. We saw
:52:15. > :52:19.considerable growth in the back office, and you saw the peak of
:52:19. > :52:25.14,000 people working in support functions. They are very important,
:52:25. > :52:30.but it used to be about 17% of costs in 2006. By 2012, it is
:52:30. > :52:34.almost one in every �3 are in the back and middle office. We need to
:52:34. > :52:38.do more to ensure we have the police deployed and doing the
:52:38. > :52:42.things they can do, but we have to have a Lina back office. How can
:52:42. > :52:46.you do that with the same number of police officers on the streets
:52:46. > :52:55.kurta marked that assumes the Met is the most sleekest operation
:52:55. > :53:00.today. Comparative forces say they spend less. Have you found out why
:53:00. > :53:03.that has happened? In the time that I have been there, it is clear that
:53:03. > :53:08.we need to have a longer term view about how this organisation is
:53:08. > :53:12.going to look, and that requires a lot of discipline, a clear strategy
:53:12. > :53:18.of what you're aiming for in terms of the party's numbers. Then how
:53:18. > :53:23.you organise and how you acquit that in the best possible way. --
:53:23. > :53:29.the police numbers. Technology, the technology spend by the Met is
:53:29. > :53:32.about �250 million. That is an enormous sum of money. Of that, the
:53:32. > :53:37.original ICT contract was priced about 60 million. For the same
:53:37. > :53:42.services, they spent about 40 million. That is 200 million are no
:53:42. > :53:46.extra items that simply are operationally needed and necessary
:53:46. > :53:52.and not driven by why they are mission-critical to catching
:53:52. > :53:57.criminals. You know that people talk about Spanish practices, the
:53:57. > :54:03.last unreformed public body. Do you find that? Do you think the police
:54:03. > :54:06.work flexibly enough? Look, what I see from working with the police,
:54:06. > :54:10.in this area, it is the first public service, a commitment to
:54:10. > :54:15.doing something for London. They have a can-do attitude, but they
:54:15. > :54:19.recognise themselves that if you have less money, �300 million less
:54:19. > :54:22.to spend in 2015-16, you cannot just turn a handle and do things
:54:22. > :54:26.the way they are done today. You have to have a clear idea about
:54:26. > :54:30.what they are going to do to run things, so they recognise the need
:54:30. > :54:35.to change. Give us an idea of where you would like to see that thinking,
:54:35. > :54:38.we are not concerned about selling buildings of the ICT. The first
:54:38. > :54:43.thing you need to reduce his the overhead and the back office, the
:54:43. > :54:49.waste and duplication. 93 business units! You have an estate that
:54:50. > :54:53.costs �200 million to run. We have dealt with that. Overtime and shift
:54:53. > :54:57.systems, the way police officers work, would you like to look at
:54:57. > :55:02.that? I am not someone who is an expert on how you deploy police
:55:02. > :55:05.officers. But I recognise that you need to reform the policing model
:55:05. > :55:09.to ensure you get those people with special powers doing the things
:55:09. > :55:13.they do and that we do not have them stacked behind desks, so that
:55:13. > :55:18.they are certain people in London, doing the things we expect. Is this
:55:18. > :55:22.timely? By its nature, police is never going to be a nine-to-five
:55:22. > :55:25.operation, so it is difficult to talk about the way in which you
:55:25. > :55:29.reorganise compared to a normal job, and Stephen has touched on issues
:55:29. > :55:32.to do with procurement. One of the things I see in my constituency,
:55:32. > :55:37.which includes the City of London, which historically had its own
:55:37. > :55:40.police force, I accept it is very well resourced, partly out of city
:55:40. > :55:44.corporation monies, but there are important lessons to learn about
:55:44. > :55:47.localism. Moving away from the current model, even a more
:55:47. > :55:52.localised model, I think it would be a retrograde step for many
:55:52. > :55:56.Londoners. It has been a long time coming, it needs to happen? Once we
:55:56. > :56:01.found out what Brian Paddick's pension was, that threw up all
:56:01. > :56:07.sorts of issues. For a Brian Paddick, I am sure he ended over 30
:56:07. > :56:11.years of service. �60,000 barrier, great work if you can get it.
:56:11. > :56:16.not here to defend himself. There are systemic issues across the
:56:16. > :56:20.public sector there, but I agree with Mark on localism. I'm not
:56:20. > :56:24.surprised the mayor has backtracked on that plan to join boroughs up,
:56:24. > :56:28.because that is an error. Londoners want to know who is accountable,
:56:28. > :56:33.the mayor may be overall, but on the disease that Stephen Greenhalgh
:56:33. > :56:38.was saying, we can talk endlessly about pruning the back office, but
:56:38. > :56:42.that will not deliver more numbers on the street, and we do need to
:56:42. > :56:49.see visible solutions. He has just had the last word on that, but it
:56:49. > :56:54.is a big challenge, do you accept that obviously, is it your priority
:56:54. > :56:58.to define the cuts first, needs must with the money, and you accept
:56:58. > :57:02.that crime will have to go up before it comes down? You cannot do
:57:02. > :57:05.it all at one time. That is a nonsense. You have to have a
:57:05. > :57:11.picture of where you're trying to get to, clarity about what life
:57:11. > :57:16.will look like in 2016. The pay bill for 32,000 officers is �1.9
:57:16. > :57:21.billion. We have a budget of 3.2 billion. If we do not throw money
:57:21. > :57:25.against technology, if we are properly equipped buildings, still
:57:25. > :57:32.providing access to the public, if we think about how we deploy police
:57:32. > :57:36.officers, you can do that within serve London in a way that is
:57:36. > :57:40.better today, frankly. Thank you very much indeed. We would like to
:57:40. > :57:50.keep in touch with you on this one, best of luck! Time to catch up on
:57:50. > :57:51.
:57:51. > :57:54.some other stories, the Week in 60 The mayor's new commission on
:57:54. > :57:58.Finance met to examine the tax paid by London as being kept in the
:57:58. > :58:03.capital. Mr Johnson said the chitty should not be a cash cow for the
:58:03. > :58:06.rest of the country. -- City. One and five Londoners are on poverty
:58:06. > :58:11.wages, according to a charity, more than half a million people earning
:58:11. > :58:16.less than the London living wage of �8.30 per hour. The Olympic Stadium
:58:16. > :58:20.race continues to be more of a marathon than a sprint. A meeting
:58:20. > :58:23.of the legacy Development Board stumbled over what rent to chart
:58:23. > :58:27.and the issue of retractable seats. The Fire Brigades Union is trying
:58:27. > :58:32.to extinguish spending cuts that could mean 600 job losses and 17
:58:32. > :58:35.station closures. The brigade is looking to save �65 million. The
:58:35. > :58:39.details were leaked ahead of a meeting next month. First-time
:58:39. > :58:42.buyers in London now need an average deposit of just over
:58:42. > :58:47.�60,000, according to a report by the Yorkshire Building Society, and
:58:47. > :58:54.that means many are now saving for eight and a half years or end up
:58:54. > :58:58.withdrawing from the Bank of mum If you thought the challenge was
:58:58. > :59:04.big for the police, it is clearly as before the fire service as Rowe,
:59:04. > :59:08.17 stations to go from London. is a big issue, rather like the
:59:08. > :59:13.hospitals with accident and emergency. No-one wants to lose a
:59:13. > :59:18.fire station from their patch, I have lost one and another is in the
:59:18. > :59:23.offing. It probably can, but I can accept there will be local people
:59:23. > :59:27.worried about the implications. cannot disagree with that.
:59:27. > :59:31.disagree, actually, because some police stations are not in the
:59:31. > :59:36.right place, but fire stations need to be close to things. If you think
:59:36. > :59:38.of London traffic, you have to get there quickly, and I worry about
:59:39. > :59:42.reducing careful. Hackney is currently unscathed, but our
:59:42. > :59:45.vehicles would have to go to fires in neighbouring boroughs, which
:59:45. > :59:50.would dilute what is available locally, and we need to look
:59:50. > :00:00.carefully at that. We will be returning to that is you, thank you
:00:00. > :00:03.
:00:03. > :00:08.In a moment we will be looking ahead to the big stories that will
:00:08. > :00:13.dominate politics next week, but first the news at noon.
:00:13. > :00:17.But afternoon. David Cameron will set out in your approach to law and
:00:17. > :00:21.order, promising that the government will be tough but
:00:21. > :00:25.intelligent. In a speech tomorrow he is expected to reveal plans to
:00:25. > :00:30.increase the use of payment by results for groups helping to
:00:30. > :00:33.rehabilitate offenders. Earlier in this programme, there Home
:00:33. > :00:39.Secretary said another area ministers would be tackling is gun
:00:39. > :00:44.crime. If you look of organised crime gangs, we know there are
:00:44. > :00:47.middlemen who have firearms that they went out to criminals who then
:00:48. > :00:53.use them. There isn't an offence at the moment for somebody to possess
:00:53. > :00:56.a firearm with intent to supply that somebody else, I think it is
:00:56. > :01:00.right that we introduce that offence.
:01:00. > :01:05.Funeral are taking place this lunchtime of those killed in the
:01:05. > :01:12.car bombing in Lebanon on Friday, including that of the country's
:01:12. > :01:16.intelligence chief. The attack is being blamed on Syria. Live now
:01:16. > :01:21.have to our Middle East correspondent in Beirut.
:01:21. > :01:27.There are thousands of protesters and mourners here at the heart of
:01:27. > :01:31.this square in Beirut, not just to mark the passing of the country's
:01:31. > :01:36.intelligence chief, but also to protest against the excesses of
:01:36. > :01:41.what they see as the Syrian regime in Lebanese politics. Such a car
:01:41. > :01:47.bomb has not been seen here for four years, and many people feel
:01:48. > :01:54.what is happening in Syria is being recruited in Lebanon. There is a
:01:54. > :02:00.fear here that many people believe the clashes will return and they
:02:00. > :02:07.will get drawn into the politics of neighbouring Syria. They also want
:02:07. > :02:13.to park the massing of a man who was seen as very prone Lebanese.
:02:13. > :02:18.At least 10 people are reported to have been killed when a car bomb
:02:18. > :02:22.exploded in Damascus in Syria. The blast happened outside a police
:02:22. > :02:26.station and came as President Bashar al-Assad was meeting the UN
:02:26. > :02:30.and Arab envoy attempting to negotiate a ceasefire in the
:02:30. > :02:35.uprising. The former BBC director general
:02:35. > :02:39.Greg Dyke has criticised the corporation's handling of the
:02:39. > :02:45.allegations that Jimmy Savile abused children. He said the BBC
:02:45. > :02:48.was slow to realise the seriousness of the scandal. The BBC made two
:02:48. > :02:52.early elastase, firstly the statements about this were not
:02:52. > :02:56.strong enough, and not saying this is a really serious issue that
:02:56. > :03:03.needs to be examined. It is not enough to say we looked in our
:03:03. > :03:07.files. Secondly, when they started saying that the Newsnight programme
:03:07. > :03:14.was not running for editorial reasons, you needed to explain what
:03:14. > :03:17.they were. Why did the editor of Newsnight decide this was not a
:03:18. > :03:22.strong enough programme to be broadcast? I suspect he didn't
:03:22. > :03:29.think the evidence was strong enough, but someone needed to say
:03:29. > :03:37.that and nobody did. That is all the news now. More news on BBC One
:03:37. > :03:42.at 6 o'clock. Now, back to you. Number 10 remains omnishambles
:03:42. > :03:47.Central, masterminding dreadful headlines in the face of good news
:03:47. > :03:52.about crime and the economy. How long will Labour be smiling if next
:03:52. > :04:01.week brings news of a growing economy? They are questions for our
:04:01. > :04:05.panel. On my little Sunday panel we had a
:04:05. > :04:10.dilemma today because we didn't know if we should take a tip from
:04:10. > :04:15.the thick of it to show what is happening, or should we go with
:04:15. > :04:22.real life? We decided to go with real life because it is even better.
:04:22. > :04:28.The Prime Minister was crystal clear yesterday. The truth is the
:04:28. > :04:31.Prime Minister was very clear. This was a policy intent that will be
:04:31. > :04:38.delivered through the necessary mechanisms. The Prime Minister
:04:38. > :04:42.comes to this House Weekly to be scrutinised by this House. Does he
:04:42. > :04:52.give any notice of every answer? Does he get notice of every
:04:52. > :04:56.
:04:56. > :05:01.question? Of course the answer is no, but if he has a -- is asking
:05:01. > :05:10.whether these questions are being deliberated, the Hon Sir is yes.
:05:10. > :05:14.That was not the BBC drama department for comedy. The Energy
:05:14. > :05:18.Secretary was sent in to explain what the Prime Minister meant
:05:18. > :05:23.because he hadn't really known. Isabel, we are going to get more
:05:23. > :05:29.probably good news on the economy that the third quarter, the economy
:05:29. > :05:35.started growing again, but is then no piece of good news this
:05:35. > :05:39.government could not turn into an omnishambles. They have locked in
:05:39. > :05:43.these fixed-term parliaments. How Labour must wish there was a
:05:43. > :05:48.general election tomorrow because they would be home and dry. If the
:05:48. > :05:52.economy turns round in the next year, this will be forgotten.
:05:52. > :05:59.Really, do you think that is true? It would take something of a
:05:59. > :06:04.miracle. George Osborne and the OBR were predicting we would now be at
:06:04. > :06:14.3% growth and we are miles below. Let's hope this week the figures
:06:14. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:18.will be good, everybody hopes that, but it could be a blip. One think
:06:18. > :06:22.tank says they suspect it will fall back because the Olympic tickets
:06:22. > :06:27.have been put into the third quarter. Everybody must hope it is
:06:27. > :06:31.real but it is risky. omnishambles confirms something we
:06:31. > :06:36.have been discussing on this show for the best part of a year, that
:06:36. > :06:41.Number 10 itself needs more and better political operators. There
:06:41. > :06:47.are plenty of high-minded neutral civil servants in there, but
:06:47. > :06:52.Downing Street is relatively poor at avoiding accidents, at seeing
:06:52. > :06:57.threat before they emerge. Is that down to the dining Street machine?
:06:57. > :07:02.A lot of unnamed Tory MPs are saying that in the papers this
:07:02. > :07:07.morning. That is true, there is clearly a communications problem
:07:07. > :07:11.and I have lost count of the times in the last six months Downing
:07:11. > :07:18.Street insiders have told me I think we are now getting a grip,
:07:18. > :07:22.then there is more shambles. I want to say about your comments, that
:07:22. > :07:27.when the figures come to be revised There is a possibility it may be
:07:27. > :07:31.seen that we were not in a double- dip recession. That is a remote
:07:31. > :07:36.possibility but certain people in government are hoping for it. For
:07:36. > :07:43.official statistics are all over the place. We have arguments about
:07:43. > :07:48.the deficit being cut, then rising, then be in court again. Do you by
:07:48. > :07:51.the Downing Street... It sounds like... Downing Street is not
:07:51. > :07:57.highly regarded by the Conservatives, I know that. It
:07:57. > :08:01.sounds too easy to blame it. After all this government has more
:08:01. > :08:07.special advisers even than us. They said they wouldn't and the last
:08:07. > :08:11.government was blamed for having too many. It must be just the wrong
:08:11. > :08:17.advisers, whether they are good at it and this lot are plainly rubbish.
:08:17. > :08:25.It is not just the fault. If Andrew Mitchell does something like that,
:08:25. > :08:31.no amount of spin can put that right. These are unforced errors.
:08:31. > :08:34.There was no need for David Cameron to pre-announced and bomb formed
:08:34. > :08:43.energy policy will have run knows it is the trickiest nightmare for
:08:43. > :08:48.government. In the end the buck stops with David Cameron. He was
:08:48. > :08:53.the one who said at Prime Minister's Questions I can
:08:53. > :08:57.announce... It was clearly pre- planned and it turned out to the
:08:57. > :09:03.announcement that to this weekend we have no idea what it means.
:09:03. > :09:10.Apparently he will be announcing that when a prisoner leaves a
:09:10. > :09:17.prisoner with �43 in their pockets, they will take it away. How will
:09:17. > :09:24.those prisoners get there first meal unless they wander into a shop
:09:24. > :09:28.and steal it. Last week was obviously a pretty good one for Ed
:09:28. > :09:34.Miliband, he didn't have to do anything, but he appeared at the
:09:34. > :09:41.rally against the cuts organised by the TUC. It didn't quite go as well,
:09:41. > :09:48.but let's have a look first. course there will still be hard
:09:48. > :09:57.choices, and with borrowing rising not falling, I do not promise easy
:09:57. > :10:03.times. You know, it is right that we level with people, that there
:10:03. > :10:08.would still be hard choices. I have said that whoever is in government
:10:08. > :10:13.now, there would be some cuts but this government has shown that
:10:13. > :10:23.cutting too far and too fast, self- defeating austerity is not the
:10:23. > :10:32.
:10:32. > :10:38.answer. It is not the answer to Maybe more booing than he expected,
:10:38. > :10:42.but we don't know quite where he is going on issues of the deficit and
:10:42. > :10:48.economic policy. I think that brewing was a thoroughly good thing
:10:48. > :10:51.for Ed Miliband. It shows he is not on another planet. He recognises
:10:51. > :10:57.that Labour would have to stick with some austerity measures,
:10:57. > :11:04.showing him as a reasonable person. Polly, you were there. I was
:11:04. > :11:09.standing right near the front. I was clapping when I thought he was
:11:09. > :11:13.right, and I thought he was right to say that. There were a lot of
:11:13. > :11:19.trade unionists who passionately wanted him to say no cuts but most
:11:19. > :11:25.of that was a group of Socialist Workers Party people who were
:11:25. > :11:31.determined to be brewing any Labour politician. A you wouldn't get the
:11:31. > :11:35.TUC doing that. You wouldn't. Anybody sensible knows that if
:11:35. > :11:42.Labour takes over next time, they will have a very hard time deciding
:11:42. > :11:47.their priorities, and which cuts to put back. I come back to my point
:11:47. > :11:50.that getting food is one thing, still having a clear narrative on
:11:50. > :11:55.what you do with the economy is another. This is why it is hard to
:11:55. > :12:05.read. Being booed initially is a good thing, it shows he is prepared
:12:05. > :12:06.
:12:06. > :12:10.to be challenged, but it is a logically consistent policy but not
:12:10. > :12:18.an electable one. Coming back to the subject we love, the BBC, are
:12:18. > :12:23.we in for the worst week since the whole Iraq war business? We have to
:12:23. > :12:29.remember a large amount of the written press hates the BBC so
:12:29. > :12:35.tries to pin everything about Jimmy Savile on the BBC. It was the NHS,
:12:35. > :12:44.it was brought more, it was the support charities. Nobody knew or
:12:44. > :12:48.and nobody had the evidence if they suspected. The question - will it
:12:48. > :12:53.be the big head that Rolls or deputy heads? Are have to challenge
:12:53. > :12:58.what you say about us hating the BBC, really we just expect them to
:12:58. > :13:03.be subject to the same scrutiny as everybody else. I do understand the
:13:03. > :13:08.point of view of that journalist who was axed who worked on that
:13:08. > :13:13.programme. There is nothing more annoying than seeing a story spiked
:13:13. > :13:21.and appearing somebody else -- somewhere else.