02/12/2012

:00:40. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The Chancellor

:00:44. > :00:48.comes clean, sort of. Debt is rising and sorting out the deficit

:00:48. > :00:55.is taking longer than he hoped. What will that mean for tax and

:00:55. > :00:58.spend, especially welfare spend? We'll have the latest, and get the

:00:58. > :01:01.Lib Dem view just three days before the Autumn Statement. As the dust

:01:01. > :01:04.settles on the Leveson report and Ed Miliband repeats his call for

:01:04. > :01:08.press regulation by law - is Labour on the wrong side of the argument?

:01:08. > :01:12.We'll ask Deputy Leader Harriet Harman. And he's the tough new

:01:12. > :01:16.Justice Secretary intent on making life hell for the criminal classes.

:01:17. > :01:25.Well that's the rhetoric. But how tough is Chris Grayling, and will

:01:26. > :01:29.it make the streets safer? In London, revolution in local

:01:29. > :01:35.government as Barnet council prepares to vote on whether to

:01:35. > :01:38.roll-out the largest outsourcing of council services in the UK.

:01:38. > :01:40.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest panel of

:01:40. > :01:44.political tweeters in the business - Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh

:01:44. > :01:52.and Nick Watt - and I can assure that all tweets will be fully

:01:52. > :01:55.So Chancellor George Osborne and his Labour Shadow have been cheek

:01:55. > :01:58.to cheek on Andrew Marr's sofa this morning. Cosy! But don't worry,

:01:58. > :02:06.they didn't agree on much. The Chancellor's blunt message - if

:02:06. > :02:11.you're hoping for a mansion tax next week, don't hold your breath.

:02:11. > :02:16.It is not going to be a mansion tax and we have made that clear. You

:02:16. > :02:20.will have to wait until Wednesday. There is the fairness for the

:02:20. > :02:26.individual who goes out to work and the next-door neighbour is living a

:02:26. > :02:32.life on benefits. It is also unfair for that individual so we will be

:02:32. > :02:39.tackling welfare bills. Making rich pay and tackling the welfare system,

:02:39. > :02:43.which is deeply unfair for working people. It looks like the only

:02:43. > :02:49.thing left on the table to hit the wealthy will be yet another raid on

:02:49. > :02:54.pensions. Yes and I'm not sure it is vivid enough to get noticed.

:02:54. > :02:58.Tories behind the scenes say we are raising taxes on the rich, but the

:02:58. > :03:05.obvious come back to that is that they don't do it in sufficient me

:03:06. > :03:09.symbolic ways to grab the public's attention. Whereas the tax cuts for

:03:09. > :03:13.the rich is incredibly vivid and what they need in this Autumn

:03:13. > :03:19.Statement is another raid on the rich which gets noticed and I am

:03:19. > :03:22.not convinced pension tax relief is quite enough. I thought the

:03:23. > :03:27.Chancellor sounded pretty defensive throughout this interview this

:03:27. > :03:31.morning, and he might because things are not going to plan and we

:03:31. > :03:37.are hearing MPs talking about the possibility of the triple dip

:03:37. > :03:47.recession. There is not really any good news. Well there is the

:03:47. > :03:52.dripping Rose, isn't it? That is all he has left to cut. Yes, the

:03:52. > :03:56.polling figures show that people are fed up with people who have

:03:56. > :04:01.paid tax credits too much on benefits and don't go out to work.

:04:01. > :04:06.The perception is when people ask what the Labour Party looks like,

:04:06. > :04:13.it is somebody laying on a sofa, not doing any work. Let's remember

:04:13. > :04:18.the cuts in the pension, it is not a lot of money. Let's see how this

:04:18. > :04:23.is going down with the Lib Dems. Joining me now is the former Lib

:04:23. > :04:28.Dem Treasury spokesman Matthew Oakeshott. Definitely more welfare

:04:28. > :04:32.cuts on the way but a categorical No to the mansion tax, how do you

:04:32. > :04:42.feel about that? The tells you all you need to know about

:04:42. > :04:45.

:04:45. > :04:49.Conservatives and fair tax. If they think this, a tax which is

:04:49. > :04:56.supported by members of all three parties and voters, they're just

:04:56. > :05:00.not prepared to go there if it will set their fat-cat donors and really

:05:00. > :05:08.rich people. We believe that moving from taxing income at the bottom,

:05:08. > :05:13.which we are trying hard not to do, to taxing wealth is essential.

:05:13. > :05:18.say we, but it is clear your colleagues in the government,

:05:18. > :05:23.unlike yourself, have gone along with this and might get another

:05:23. > :05:30.court in pension privileges. Will that be enough? I carried a motion

:05:30. > :05:34.at a conference, and called the Lib Dem cabinet ministers have been

:05:34. > :05:38.fighting for it. It doesn't look like we have got it this time but

:05:38. > :05:43.it is a Liberal Democrats policy and it just tells you that if the

:05:43. > :05:48.Conservatives think that is fair, they are showing their true colours.

:05:48. > :05:52.What about pension cut privileges, will that be enough for you?

:05:52. > :06:02.looks sensible, it is moving in that direction. Most Liberal

:06:02. > :06:05.

:06:05. > :06:09.Democrats would agree - why should higher rate taxpayers get more in

:06:09. > :06:13.their pension, but it is not a very big move and not really making a

:06:13. > :06:18.serious move towards fairness. What really matters is getting the

:06:18. > :06:23.economy growing and that is where we are stuck. Do you think that the

:06:23. > :06:30.welfare system is deeply unfair to working people as the Chancellor

:06:30. > :06:34.said this morning? I don't. I think it needs more reform but in this

:06:34. > :06:37.country there are more people in poverty in working families than

:06:38. > :06:42.other ones and we must not cut benefit there either. The last

:06:42. > :06:46.thing we need to do at the moment is to actually have the welfare

:06:46. > :06:51.bill rising. The problem we have got is that the economy outside

:06:51. > :06:56.London is going backwards. We did start cutting the deficit, but now

:06:56. > :06:59.it is slipping back again and the Treasury must be more bald in

:07:00. > :07:05.getting the economy growing, otherwise the welfare bill will get

:07:05. > :07:11.out of control and the deficit will get out of control. The black holes

:07:11. > :07:15.are banking and housing. The birth of Scotland is a zombie bank, not

:07:15. > :07:21.lending to business. That is why the welfare bill is out of control.

:07:21. > :07:26.I want to ask you - the Lib Dems are spinning that they have managed

:07:26. > :07:32.to get a 1% rise in welfare rather than a frieze that the Chancellor

:07:32. > :07:36.was after. Does that please you? It doesn't sound like much. I am not

:07:36. > :07:40.coming on here to comment about rumours about what might happen.

:07:40. > :07:45.What happens in the autumn statement, it is important to get

:07:45. > :07:50.the economy growing. That is why we must fight harder to make sure we

:07:50. > :07:56.get policies that get it going, and get houses built. It is not about

:07:56. > :08:01.planning permission, it is about making the banks lend, and letting

:08:01. > :08:05.the housing associations start building. You came in eight place

:08:05. > :08:10.in Rotherham, do you think you might come in seventh place with a

:08:10. > :08:15.new leader? Those results were disastrous and that is why we have

:08:15. > :08:19.got to be much tougher, everyone from top to bottom, we have got to

:08:19. > :08:23.raise our game. Otherwise frankly at the next election we are in

:08:23. > :08:27.serious danger of being relegated from the Premier League. Do you

:08:27. > :08:34.need a new leader? We need a more vigorous strategy and to fight

:08:34. > :08:39.harder to get the economy growing. It is yes or no question. We need

:08:39. > :08:42.to raise our game and changed radically, and start on Thursday.

:08:42. > :08:48.If the Autumn Statement does not do the things that need to be done to

:08:48. > :08:52.get the economy growing, I hope Nick Clegg, he has been very

:08:52. > :08:55.forthright on Leveson, I hope he will say the same on the Autumn

:08:55. > :08:58.Statement. Now, have you finished reading your

:08:58. > :09:04.copy of the Leveson report yet? It's only 2,000 pages. Maybe he

:09:04. > :09:06.needed an editor to sub it down. And for Labour the devil is in the

:09:06. > :09:08.detail, with doubts being raised about Ed Miliband's decision to

:09:08. > :09:11.support all Leveson's recommendations just a few hours

:09:11. > :09:14.after receiving his copy. In a moment we'll discuss the way

:09:14. > :09:23.forward with Labour's Deputy Leader Harriet Harman but first here's

:09:23. > :09:27.Giles Dilnot with more. It had the feeling of the Christmas build up,

:09:27. > :09:33.anticipation and impatience, waiting to one wrap a long awaited

:09:33. > :09:37.box, but who would the report being offering to? The victims of the

:09:37. > :09:41.excesses of the press, they give to the campaigners for tougher

:09:41. > :09:46.regulation, or newspaper editors and journalists? The mass media

:09:46. > :09:50.doing a story about media regulation might irritate people,

:09:50. > :09:55.but what might irritate them more is that to a certain extent it may

:09:55. > :09:59.not matter what Leveson has said because very quickly we saw the

:09:59. > :10:04.political fault lines. I'm not convinced at this stage that

:10:04. > :10:08.statute is necessary to achieve the objectives of Leveson. If the prime

:10:08. > :10:13.minister has been called brave, standing up for centuries of press

:10:13. > :10:21.freedom... By newspapers. Disappointment from victims has

:10:21. > :10:25.gone from a word - betrayal - to a petition. Leveson in full is what

:10:25. > :10:28.they want. Let's be clear about the proposals and why they are

:10:28. > :10:36.different from the present system and while I believe they should be

:10:36. > :10:39.accepted in their entirety. To say we're going to do it anyway is a

:10:39. > :10:44.problem of credibility. Whether it turns out to be a political problem,

:10:44. > :10:48.in the sense that the voters like you more than the newspapers like

:10:48. > :10:53.you less, and those things out way each other, that is a different

:10:53. > :10:59.matter and not easy for me to tell, but I think these easy popularity

:10:59. > :11:04.hits are already what people suspect about opposition parties.

:11:04. > :11:09.2000 page report, recommendations about transparency and the role of

:11:09. > :11:13.Ofcom, the devil is in the detail. I can understand why Ed Miliband

:11:13. > :11:20.said immediately I accept this report in its entirety, but I

:11:20. > :11:24.suspect that he will begin to back off. This morning, Ed Miliband

:11:24. > :11:30.clarifies in a newspaper they are not buying every detail, but the

:11:30. > :11:33.direction was clear. We should show confidence in the inquiries we

:11:33. > :11:37.settled and we should see it through, not be blown off course

:11:37. > :11:44.and not betray the victims of phone hacking. I think what Ed Miliband

:11:44. > :11:50.is trying to do is to say I am one of you, not one of them, but the

:11:50. > :11:55.problem with that is he is actually one of them. Being an alternative

:11:55. > :12:03.Prime Minister is very much to be one of them. Politicians are often

:12:03. > :12:10.painted in satirical technicolour. At the back of his mind will be the

:12:10. > :12:15.memory of the terrible times and the very early 90s went in the 1992

:12:15. > :12:22.general election the Sun put Neil Kinnock's head in a light bulb on

:12:22. > :12:28.the front page saying they are leaving Britain without the lights

:12:28. > :12:32.on. That is not where he wants to go. If the press spurns the time

:12:32. > :12:37.getting its house in order, Leveson risks the ball moving out of his

:12:37. > :12:44.court. Harriet Harman joins me now. The

:12:44. > :12:48.current head of Liberty, also a key adviser to the Leveson inquiry, she

:12:48. > :12:52.says statutory press regulation as lovers and recommends would fall

:12:52. > :12:56.foul of the European Convention of Human Rights. What do you say to

:12:56. > :13:00.that? Our I don't think that is right because Leveson proposes

:13:00. > :13:04.something similar to the Irish system and their passionate

:13:04. > :13:09.supporters on the European Convention of Human Rights and fair

:13:09. > :13:14.system, which is backed by law, has not fallen foul from the European

:13:14. > :13:18.Convention. Article 10 of the Convention says everyone has the

:13:18. > :13:22.right to freedom of expression, without interference by public of

:13:22. > :13:27.authority. What Leveson is proposing is interference Bible

:13:27. > :13:31.because authority. No, we are absolutely not proposing that

:13:31. > :13:35.public authority should interfere with the freedom of the press. We

:13:35. > :13:40.are backing the proposal by Leveson that there should be an independent

:13:40. > :13:44.redress system for complaints for people who say that the editors

:13:44. > :13:53.have breached their own code, but that that independence system

:13:53. > :13:58.should be guaranteed by law. would be backed by public authority.

:13:58. > :14:02.No, the adjudication, the decision- making about whether a complaint is

:14:02. > :14:05.justified, whether an apology should be written, that would be

:14:05. > :14:10.nowhere near a public authority. That would be an independent body,

:14:10. > :14:14.but at least there would be backing in law that the independent body

:14:14. > :14:19.was operating effectively. We can't go on with the situation that we

:14:19. > :14:23.have had, where the editors say they will abide by a code and yet

:14:23. > :14:27.they so grievously breach the code and there is no redress. If you

:14:27. > :14:31.have a situation where somebody has been a victim of a terrible crime

:14:31. > :14:36.and there family is hounded by the press and they can do nothing about

:14:36. > :14:43.it, that is why Leveson says there needs to be changed and that is why

:14:43. > :14:48.we agree with him. That is why we think that Parliament will one to

:14:48. > :14:52.back Leveson's proposal for a legal guarantee and that is why we are

:14:52. > :14:57.drafting a law that Parliament can take forward. It earlier this year

:14:57. > :15:03.he took the same position as Shami Chakrabarti on the need not to have

:15:03. > :15:09.law to do it. What changed? haven't changed my position. Let me

:15:09. > :15:13.remind you what you said in January - you reminded the Oxford media

:15:13. > :15:17.society that you used to run Of liberty under a different name. You

:15:17. > :15:22.said I think it would help Leveson if newspaper editors got together

:15:22. > :15:27.and came forward with a solution. I would like to see them frame the

:15:27. > :15:33.solution rather than have one imposed upon them. A said the

:15:33. > :15:37.solution have to be such that it would apply to everybody and it had

:15:37. > :15:41.to have independence. What the press have come forward with under

:15:41. > :15:46.the Hunt Black plan, they say OK we can have an independent person

:15:46. > :15:56.appointed, but actually we, the press, could fire the whole lot of

:15:56. > :15:58.

:15:58. > :16:03.I issued a challenge to the press and they did not respond to it. We

:16:03. > :16:08.need that legal guarantee. They could respond to it with their

:16:08. > :16:14.proposals which are not thought to be inadequate by Leveson. Hunt-

:16:14. > :16:17.black is the status quo. What would happen if they said next week that

:16:17. > :16:21.they accept all the Leveson principles? We have been here

:16:21. > :16:26.before with scandals and everyone saying that something should be

:16:27. > :16:32.done. The press say they will change their ways but it slips back.

:16:32. > :16:37.How many more times will we go through this situation? You would

:16:37. > :16:44.not want to walk one step in the shoes of the Dowler family or the

:16:44. > :16:50.McCann family. We need to ensure that the code is abided by. It is

:16:50. > :16:58.the code for editors, it is not inhibiting the freedom of the press.

:16:58. > :17:02.Here arguing for business as usual. I have asked you if that -- I have

:17:02. > :17:10.asked you if you signed up to all of Leveson, which you need

:17:10. > :17:13.statutory code. On Thursday, Ed Miliband told the Commons that he

:17:13. > :17:21.accepted the Leveson recommendations in their entirety.

:17:21. > :17:26.Is that still Labour policy? Absolutely. There has been wilful

:17:26. > :17:30.misquoting of what Ed Miliband said. He said, it is the central

:17:30. > :17:38.recommendation, the central recommendation been the one that

:17:38. > :17:42.says you have an independent redress system. It is backed and

:17:42. > :17:48.guaranteed by law. That is the central proposal of Leveson.

:17:48. > :17:55.said, let's be clear about the proposals. I believe they should be

:17:55. > :17:59.accepted in their entirety. He then goes on to say he proposes a

:17:59. > :18:05.genuinely independent regulator. That is what he was speaking about.

:18:05. > :18:10.So he does not accept them in their entirety? There are things that are

:18:10. > :18:18.not central to that thing about having an independent system, but

:18:18. > :18:23.with a guarantee in law. So he did not mean in their entirety? He said,

:18:23. > :18:28.what we should unequivocally endorses the principle set out and

:18:28. > :18:33.his central recommendations. Earlier he said, I believe they

:18:33. > :18:37.should be accepted in their entirety. Andrew, I am sorry, you

:18:37. > :18:46.are trying to imply that our position is changing. You may not

:18:46. > :18:52.agree with our position. We think that Leveson has done an important

:18:52. > :18:58.job and the status quo should not be allowed to be maintained. Do you

:18:58. > :19:04.believe that Ofcom play a pivotal role? Leveson said it could either

:19:04. > :19:09.be of, somebody else regulating. We think Ofcom is a good idea. We

:19:10. > :19:17.would go along with that, but this is for Parliament to take forward.

:19:17. > :19:23.If they want the alternative Leveson proposal former, -- the

:19:23. > :19:28.alternative Leveson proposal, that is fine. What is Labour policy?

:19:28. > :19:36.think that Ofcom would be fine to do that, but it is not the central

:19:36. > :19:40.tenant. Someone has to do it, backed by law. We are going to have

:19:40. > :19:46.to have a parliamentary consensus on implementing the central Tenant

:19:46. > :19:52.of Leveson. There are some things which Leveson himself says are

:19:53. > :19:57.optional or alternatives. If you win the next election and you carry

:19:57. > :20:03.on in the shadow position into the real job, you would be the one who

:20:03. > :20:10.appointed the head of Ofcom. Who would be suitable? We do not know

:20:10. > :20:15.who is going to be the independent guarantor of this legal system.

:20:15. > :20:21.who would be good, Alastair Campbell? You are rushing ahead. We

:20:21. > :20:24.do not even know if it will be Ofcom. It sounds like many people

:20:24. > :20:31.think there ought to be an alternative. Would you rule him

:20:32. > :20:36.out? What, Alastair Campbell? Mandelson? You're going to appoint

:20:36. > :20:41.the head of Ofcom who will be the person under your scheme who will

:20:41. > :20:45.be the valid data of a regulatory system. It is reasonable to ask

:20:45. > :20:49.what kind of person you think should do it. You are rushing ahead

:20:49. > :20:56.to us winning the next election and me appointing the next chair of

:20:56. > :21:02.Ofcom. I think Parliament wants action sooner than that. We do not

:21:02. > :21:08.want to wait until the next general election. There has been a stain

:21:08. > :21:12.hanging over the fine traditions of our Press. We cannot leave the

:21:12. > :21:17.press in the last-chance saloon. You said Det Jeremy Hunt has done

:21:17. > :21:22.something bad and he should be fired because of it. Leveson said,

:21:22. > :21:28.there is no credible evidence of actual bias in anything that Jeremy

:21:28. > :21:33.Hunt bid. Time to withdraw what you said? Leveson also said that he did

:21:33. > :21:39.not have proper control over his special adviser. He did not

:21:39. > :21:46.supervise him, which is required by the Ministerial Code. That is wise

:21:46. > :21:51.he makes proposals for greater transparency. The only reason that

:21:51. > :21:57.Jeremy Hunt was not found guilty of a breach of the Ministerial Code

:21:57. > :22:01.was that David Cameron did not allow it to be investigated.

:22:01. > :22:07.Leveson said there was no credible evidence of bias. Do you withdraw

:22:07. > :22:14.your claims? We are saying about Lord Leveson that we accept his

:22:14. > :22:20.central proposal for a regulatory system. DU accept that he found no

:22:20. > :22:25.evidence of bias which Jeremy Hunt was concerned? I accept that he did

:22:25. > :22:35.not control his special adviser. He went behind the scenes in secret to

:22:35. > :22:36.

:22:36. > :22:40.one side anyway. I it may have found that there was bias had I

:22:40. > :22:48.been the Lords sitting there in that inquiry. But that is not

:22:48. > :22:51.central. Her Harriet Harman, thank you. -- Harriet Harman. Now, Chris

:22:51. > :22:54.Grayling has been Justice Secretary for almost three months. And he has

:22:54. > :22:57.delivered rhetoric to gladden the heart of even the most rabid Tory

:22:57. > :23:00.backbencher. That's you, Peter Bone! But the test will be whether

:23:00. > :23:04.the rhetoric translates to results. The Justice Secretary has a

:23:04. > :23:07.reputation as a tough guy. Within weeks of his appointment, he

:23:07. > :23:13.announced that people who commit the most serious violent or sexual

:23:13. > :23:18.crimes more than once will face automatic life sentences. A so-

:23:18. > :23:21.called two strikes and you're out policy. He made it clear that he

:23:21. > :23:26.does not want to see prisoners sitting in cells watching the

:23:26. > :23:29.Sunday afternoon match on Sky television. He said that

:23:29. > :23:36.Westminster would have the final say on whether prisoners get the

:23:36. > :23:39.vote. He also won applause from his own side when it as he said that

:23:39. > :23:45.householders would have the right to imply a disproportionate force

:23:45. > :23:48.when defending their house from burglars. He wants to keep

:23:48. > :23:53.offenders out of jail. The test will be whether his tough new

:23:53. > :23:56.measures will be able to restore public confidence, which he thinks

:23:56. > :24:03.has been lost. And the Justice Secretary Chris

:24:03. > :24:09.Grayling joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

:24:09. > :24:16.Good morning. Your predecessor was known as the six Liberal-Democrat

:24:16. > :24:22.in the Cabinet, Ken Clarke. You are a man of the right. Well

:24:22. > :24:28.differences in policy now be down to personality or a conviction?

:24:28. > :24:32.Conviction. Some of the things I inherited from Kenneth Clarke were

:24:32. > :24:36.good. I think he has got a bad press. There are things I will do

:24:36. > :24:41.different they, but I do not want people to believe that Kenneth

:24:41. > :24:51.Clarke was doing the wrong job on criminal justice matters. He made

:24:51. > :25:04.

:25:04. > :25:08.it pretty clear that he thought Do you agree or disagree? I agree

:25:08. > :25:13.it is right to send people to prison. The flaw is that people

:25:13. > :25:17.come back to prison. My philosophy is best to titillated by saying

:25:17. > :25:23.that I want more of the right people to go to prison, but I want

:25:23. > :25:28.fewer of them to come back. We send people to prison and do nothing to

:25:28. > :25:32.turn their lives around. If you come out of the prison gates after

:25:32. > :25:37.a six-month sentence, he will come out with �40 in your pocket and you

:25:37. > :25:43.will go back to the same streets you were run before. All too often

:25:43. > :25:48.you will be back to prison straight afterwards. He completely refutes

:25:48. > :25:53.that. Do you agree? The debt that is missing is that we're not

:25:53. > :25:55.rehabilitating prisoners effectively. My view is it is

:25:56. > :26:01.better to have criminals who have committed serious offences in

:26:01. > :26:06.prison. If there is a serial burglar in your area behind bars,

:26:06. > :26:12.burglary rates will fall. But when that person comes out, I want them

:26:12. > :26:16.to turn their lives around so they do not do it again. Let's look at

:26:16. > :26:23.projections of the prison population for England and Wales.

:26:23. > :26:27.It rose substantially under Labour, up to over 85,000. The dotted line

:26:27. > :26:33.shows what you Department things will happen on the policies that

:26:33. > :26:37.you inherited. That is the Ken Clarke policy. The numbers fall.

:26:37. > :26:43.Will that trend be the same or will it be affected by changes you

:26:43. > :26:47.introduce? I do not intend us to be in a position where the courts feel

:26:47. > :26:53.that they do not have to send someone to prison at that they want

:26:53. > :26:59.to send to prison. These are tough times financially but I do not want

:26:59. > :27:03.an artificial reduction in the prison population. If the work we

:27:03. > :27:08.put into rehabilitating offenders mean that fewer people come back to

:27:08. > :27:13.prison, that is great. That line under you is not going to happen,

:27:13. > :27:17.it is not the continuation of Kenneth Clarke? I am not following

:27:17. > :27:21.policies that will lead to an artificial reduction of the prison

:27:21. > :27:28.population. Do you think that would have been an artificial reduction

:27:28. > :27:31.it we had followed that policy? There are different statistics for

:27:31. > :27:36.high-level, level and mea Jim Lovell estimates of the numbers to

:27:36. > :27:42.go to prison. I want the courts to believe that if they want to send

:27:42. > :27:46.someone to prison, there is no lack of a place to send that person to.

:27:46. > :27:51.Surely it follows from your approach that there will be more

:27:51. > :27:55.prison numbers? In a October you spoke about half two strikes and

:27:55. > :28:01.you're out, automatic life sentences for serious balance or

:28:01. > :28:04.sexual offences. That surely means higher prisoner numbers?

:28:04. > :28:09.certainly means a number of prisoners going to prison for

:28:09. > :28:12.longer and Bamu all in favour of that. It means that someone that

:28:12. > :28:18.commits a serious offence that would command a sentence of 10

:28:18. > :28:24.years or more, everyone deserves a second chance. But if they do not

:28:24. > :28:34.use that chance, they should go to prison. This was David Cameron

:28:34. > :28:45.

:28:45. > :28:50.Your predecessor watered that statement down. Was that a mistake?

:28:51. > :28:59.I have commissioned brand-new work on knife crime. From tomorrow, we

:28:59. > :29:02.are introducing a brand new jail If you're carrying a knife in a

:29:02. > :29:10.threatening way, you will go to jail. I am also looking at the use

:29:10. > :29:14.of cautions for a knife crime which and not happy with. Do you accept,

:29:14. > :29:19.it is completely unacceptable, end of subject. There will be a

:29:19. > :29:23.presumption you will go to jail. Do you accept you have not delivered

:29:23. > :29:27.on that promise so far? There have been certain things we have not

:29:27. > :29:34.been able to introduce. The knife crime element was not in the

:29:34. > :29:43.coalition agreement. I have not had a detailed discussion on the

:29:43. > :29:47.proposals yet. I am not aware that they have blocked the issue. I am

:29:47. > :29:53.revisiting the issue and I feel strongly that it should be dealt

:29:53. > :29:58.with in the toughest possible way. You mentioned the conscience. Let's

:29:58. > :30:04.take the second quarter of this year, from a poll -- from April to

:30:04. > :30:11.June. 4,000 people were arrested for carrying a blade on a similar

:30:11. > :30:20.offensive weapon, and yet just 951 was sent to prison. 22 were laptop

:30:20. > :30:24.with a caution. -- 22 % were let off with a caution. Do you want me

:30:24. > :30:29.to beat back the Prime Minister's Quirk? Can you explain the

:30:29. > :30:36.difference? I started further work on knife crime to look at this

:30:36. > :30:40.issue. If the criminal justice system, if the police, believe that

:30:40. > :30:46.a criminal justice intervention is necessary, it does not apply if you

:30:46. > :30:49.are bringing a Stanley knife back from B&Q, but if the police think

:30:49. > :30:54.that the criminal justice intervention is necessary, I have

:30:54. > :30:59.profound misgivings about that been handled with a caution. What will

:30:59. > :31:03.the public make of this? The Prime Minister says that carrying a knife

:31:04. > :31:10.is completely unacceptable. If you are taught you will go to jail,

:31:10. > :31:20.pretty clear, but 22 % are let off with a caution. That is not what

:31:20. > :31:23.

:31:23. > :31:26.These are amongst the issues I have started early work on. We are

:31:26. > :31:30.taking early action on serious crime issues this week with the

:31:30. > :31:35.introduction of the new offences for knife crime and serious

:31:35. > :31:44.offenders. The new offence is being introduced for causing serious

:31:44. > :31:50.injury by Dave just - would grow by dangerous driving. Cautions are not

:31:50. > :31:56.just used a knife crime, they are used for what people will regard as

:31:56. > :32:02.much more serious crimes. Let me show you this, your own

:32:02. > :32:09.department's figures. 268 cautions for people who had sex with an

:32:09. > :32:14.under 16 year-old. 390 cautions for sexual assault of a female. How can

:32:14. > :32:20.you support process in which an adult having sex with a child

:32:20. > :32:24.warrants merely a caution? can't give a broad brush judgment

:32:24. > :32:29.in every circumstance. There will be occasions when the police need

:32:29. > :32:35.discretion. If you find somebody who is 16 years and one day

:32:35. > :32:42.sleeping with their partner who is 15 years and 364 days, there is

:32:42. > :32:48.technically... The his figures are for over 18 year-olds, we have

:32:48. > :32:54.allowed for that in our figures. Over 18 year-old assaulting say a

:32:54. > :32:58.13 year-old girl, and you get a caution. There will always be some

:32:58. > :33:05.discretion for the circumstances that we can't foresee or understand,

:33:05. > :33:08.we are not certain about what the situation is. My view is that

:33:08. > :33:13.cautions for serious offences should be used extremely sparingly

:33:13. > :33:17.if at all and that is why I have started the work on my crime and

:33:17. > :33:23.while I am looking at the way in which the criminal justice system

:33:23. > :33:28.works. I'll stand on their cases at the margin that have to be judged

:33:28. > :33:35.on their merits, but of the 390 cautions for sexual assault of a

:33:35. > :33:41.female, many of these people were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, even 50s

:33:41. > :33:46.and yet they get a caution. Will you tell the British people this

:33:46. > :33:56.morning that will not happen? will say that I don't want under

:33:56. > :33:56.

:33:57. > :33:59.will do everything I can to prevent cautions being used in

:33:59. > :34:06.appropriately rather than being brought before the court. Are these

:34:06. > :34:12.figures too high? We used cautions too frequently this country, that

:34:12. > :34:15.is why I commissioned early work on knife crime. Day did Cameron said

:34:15. > :34:18.prisoners are not getting the vote under this government but you are

:34:18. > :34:23.going to place options before Parliament, some of which would

:34:23. > :34:28.give prisoners the vote. Which way will you vote? We haven't got

:34:28. > :34:34.anything to vote on yet but let's be clear about the legal position,

:34:35. > :34:40.and my position is different in this because I am the Lord

:34:40. > :34:50.Chancellor, I have sworn upon an oath to uphold the law and it is

:34:50. > :34:52.

:34:52. > :34:56.our duty to put through laws from the European Court. Parliament has

:34:56. > :35:00.the right to overrule the European Court of Human Rights if it

:35:00. > :35:05.believes it wants to do so. It has to accept there may be a political

:35:05. > :35:09.consequence of doing that but it has the right to do so, so we have

:35:09. > :35:13.set up Parliament we are under an obligation to do this, you are not,

:35:13. > :35:19.I would give you three options, two of which involve giving some

:35:19. > :35:26.prisoners the vote, one of which will give you the right to exercise

:35:26. > :35:31.your sovereignty and tees up to you did to decide -- it is up to you to

:35:31. > :35:37.decide. Are you saying that as Lord Chancellor you can't vote for the

:35:37. > :35:41.option which is status quo, no votes for prisoners? I will take

:35:41. > :35:44.appropriate legal advice. My position is different to other

:35:45. > :35:50.members of parliament on this because of my role as guardian of

:35:50. > :35:55.the judiciary. I am the only person subject of the oath to uphold the

:35:55. > :36:01.law. The prime minister will have to decide at the time what he wants

:36:01. > :36:04.ministers to do. My position is different. I understand that, but

:36:04. > :36:11.at what I think you're saying is that you may be asking Parliament

:36:11. > :36:18.to vote for something which you can't vote for yourself or your

:36:18. > :36:24.Cabinet colleagues can't vote for. Is that true? The Prime Minister's

:36:24. > :36:27.view on this is clear, but I have legal responsibility and you can't

:36:27. > :36:31.be Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor and not uphold the law.

:36:31. > :36:36.I will take appropriate legal advice about what I can and can't

:36:36. > :36:39.do but fundamentally this is a choice for Parliament and I have

:36:39. > :36:44.said to parliament it would be easy to accept the ruling but the legal

:36:44. > :36:48.base is different. It says you as Parliament collectively have a

:36:48. > :36:55.right to decide to accept this ruling. I am offering you the

:36:55. > :37:00.choice. The Alex for clarifying that. You are watching the Sunday

:37:00. > :37:06.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be looking at the

:37:06. > :37:16.week ahead without political panel. Until then the Sunday Politics

:37:16. > :37:20.

:37:20. > :37:21.Hello and welcome. Coming up later, Barnet Council takes the road

:37:22. > :37:31.proposing the largest-ever out- sourcing of government sources in

:37:31. > :37:36.the UK. This week we have Rushanara Ali und Richard Ottaway Labour and

:37:36. > :37:40.Conservative MPs. Firstly today an argument over admission policies

:37:40. > :37:45.that new Catholic state schools in Twickenham. Vince Cable has

:37:45. > :37:50.criticised the involvement of the Education Secretary Michael Gove.

:37:50. > :37:54.It is over proposals to admit as many as 90% of pupils who are

:37:54. > :37:58.Catholic. He is angry Michael Gove has accepted this, even though it

:37:58. > :38:03.seems to run against the agreement which seems to suggest for

:38:03. > :38:13.academies that only 50% of places should be allocated according to

:38:13. > :38:14.

:38:14. > :38:19.religion. Richard Ottaway, 90%, a new state school funded from the

:38:19. > :38:24.chosen religion of that school - is that right? It illustrates there is

:38:25. > :38:28.a big demand for this type of school in Richmond. The law at the

:38:28. > :38:31.local authority's position about it, there was the the consultation

:38:31. > :38:37.process which came out overwhelmingly in favour of it and

:38:37. > :38:40.there is a demand for it. Something like 200 pupils a year are going

:38:40. > :38:44.out of the borrower looking for this type of education so why are

:38:44. > :38:50.we driving people away from their local area when there is a facility

:38:50. > :38:55.and demand for it? What is your instinctive position? The question

:38:55. > :39:02.is that public money is being used to support these schools and so the

:39:02. > :39:06.public should have access to these schools, and while I support the

:39:06. > :39:11.fruit schools being able to establish themselves in my

:39:11. > :39:14.constituency we have many fate schools across the range, it is

:39:15. > :39:19.really important that when public money is concerned certain groups

:39:19. > :39:23.are not excluded so this seems to be problematic if you are going to

:39:23. > :39:27.spend �10 million of local taxpayers' money. You say the

:39:27. > :39:32.demand is there for it, I think it is questionable if the demand is

:39:32. > :39:37.from the people in Richmond borough, but there is a demand for a new

:39:37. > :39:41.secondary school. Why should it be faith based and the money put into

:39:41. > :39:48.it, when the admissions are skewed so much in favour of that one

:39:48. > :39:54.group? Going back to your point, for 30 years they had a chance to

:39:54. > :39:57.change the law and they didn't, so you can go either way on this and I

:39:57. > :40:02.think most people would say if you are starting with a blank sheet you

:40:02. > :40:06.may not put faith schools down there but we are where we are. This

:40:06. > :40:10.is perfectly lawful activity that people want and I think you should

:40:10. > :40:18.respect that, rather than driving people out of the local authority

:40:18. > :40:21.area. Don't forget these schools perform better than most, and to

:40:21. > :40:28.have high-quality schools dumbed down personally is not a road I

:40:28. > :40:32.would go down. I think the point 3 is that this discussion is

:40:32. > :40:36.fundamental to the question of accessible admissions and fair

:40:36. > :40:41.admissions policy. Why didn't you change it when you have the chance?

:40:41. > :40:44.We did have a fair admissions policy but your government is

:40:44. > :40:48.introducing free schools which raises serious questions are up

:40:48. > :40:52.access to schools and now this will set a precedent were fake schools

:40:52. > :40:56.can have public money but they don't have the responsibility to

:40:56. > :41:03.have the appropriate numbers of people from other faith groups, and

:41:03. > :41:08.that will create tension in local communities. Let's move on. Just up

:41:08. > :41:12.the road from Richard's seat this week saw Labour retain the seat of

:41:12. > :41:18.Croydon North after a by-election caused by the death of Malcolm

:41:18. > :41:28.Wicks. Steve Reed secured an 8% swing to Labour with the

:41:28. > :41:29.

:41:29. > :41:34.Conservatives' second and UKIP third. The wind and an 8% swing for

:41:34. > :41:39.Labour. It would have been at all order for anyone to overturn a

:41:39. > :41:44.16,000 majority left by Malcolm Wicks, whose death led to this by-

:41:44. > :41:53.election, but some interesting characters emerged. Lee Jasper,

:41:53. > :42:03.could he do a George Galloway? No. And Winston Mackenzie for UKIP, he

:42:03. > :42:06.

:42:06. > :42:11.called for gay couples to be banned from adopting children. The

:42:11. > :42:14.Conservatives will be quietly satisfied, a smaller swing against

:42:14. > :42:24.them than we have seen in other by- elections. Their choice of

:42:24. > :42:28.

:42:28. > :42:33.candidate was interesting. Andy Stranack, campaigning hard on his

:42:33. > :42:39.local roots. A key lesson is that when we select the right candidate

:42:39. > :42:44.and we campaign on everyday issues - the NHS, jobs, crime - that is

:42:44. > :42:51.how we will get the best results. Keeping the word Conservative of

:42:51. > :43:01.the literature. Know, we had that on there, we brought Boris Johnson

:43:01. > :43:02.

:43:02. > :43:08.down, Iain Duncan-Smith down. I am pleased to say Steve Reed is

:43:08. > :43:13.with us now. A very solid retention of the seat. Were there are times

:43:13. > :43:19.when you were worried? We saw a late flurry, the bookmakers were

:43:19. > :43:24.saying, that we might have seen a repeat of George Galloway. I have

:43:25. > :43:29.been talking to voters over several weeks and Respect were not gaining

:43:29. > :43:38.much traction. This was always going to be a two-horse race

:43:38. > :43:44.between Labour and Conservatives. well-known leader of a London

:43:44. > :43:48.council, very influential, now replacing that with being a mere

:43:48. > :43:53.backbencher - why did you want to do it? A There is a lot you can do

:43:53. > :43:58.for people as a council leader to try to protect citizens and

:43:58. > :44:01.communities from the worst effects of the cuts and I think you can

:44:01. > :44:05.take that experience to Parliament and tried to apply at a national

:44:06. > :44:09.level. A whole lot of councils Lawal are using the co-operative

:44:09. > :44:12.approach that was pioneered in Lambeth and it has become a

:44:12. > :44:19.national agenda. I still want to stay engaged with that radical

:44:19. > :44:24.approach. Would you be one person wanting to say to Ed Balls and the

:44:24. > :44:29.shadow Treasury team that we really can make these savings - do not

:44:29. > :44:34.fall into a trap of saying we are cutting too far? The government is

:44:34. > :44:40.clearly going too far and too fast because we may be heading for a

:44:40. > :44:45.triple dip recession. Some people think about how we can do things

:44:45. > :44:48.not just more cheaply but better as well. We would do this before this

:44:48. > :44:53.government was elected so it has nothing to do with what this

:44:53. > :44:58.government is doing and I think the cuts are hitting poorest people

:44:58. > :45:02.hardest of all. The national government were not following your

:45:02. > :45:08.spending cuts before. We were developing an agenda, but

:45:08. > :45:12.unfortunately the Conservatives came in and hit national

:45:12. > :45:17.departments and that was the wrong thing to do. Let's bring Richard in

:45:17. > :45:22.here because we haven't meet Croydon story. You are standing

:45:22. > :45:32.down in two years. What is your advice to someone just embarking on

:45:32. > :45:33.

:45:33. > :45:39.I have would like to welcome him to Croydon. It is a great place.

:45:39. > :45:44.Malcolm Wicks was a friend of mine, I had a massive respect for him. I

:45:44. > :45:53.hear he's going to be a worthy successor. What are the days and

:45:53. > :45:58.don'ts. How do you adapt to this kind of career? I always think that

:45:58. > :46:05.in politics the faster you go up, the quicker you come down. I would

:46:05. > :46:09.pace yourself. I have not been sworn in yet. You are more recently

:46:09. > :46:15.elected. What is it like to be an opposition backbencher, any words

:46:15. > :46:21.of advice? I want to say how delighted I learned that he has

:46:22. > :46:30.been elected. We are really proud of the success we have had in by-

:46:30. > :46:33.elections recently. I look forward to working with him. It is really,

:46:33. > :46:39.really challenging in opposition. In constituencies like mine, we are

:46:39. > :46:44.facing massive cuts to local budgets. It is important to have

:46:44. > :46:48.colleagues like Steve who has experience of running local council

:46:49. > :46:55.budgets. We need to work together to campaign against the Government

:46:55. > :47:01.on the kind of cuts that are damaging jobs. Very quickly, what

:47:01. > :47:06.is your position? You will come from completely different positions.

:47:06. > :47:11.How do you find Croydon, the place you are now taking over, what are

:47:11. > :47:14.the problems? Croydon is a great place but it has been badly let

:47:15. > :47:20.down by the public could authorities. People are speaking to

:47:20. > :47:27.me about several issues, the state of the economy, jobs and

:47:27. > :47:31.unemployment. That was a real issue. People blame the Government.

:47:31. > :47:39.Croydon North has spiralling levels of youth unemployment, far higher

:47:39. > :47:43.than the other areas. That is an issue. Thank God you are standing

:47:43. > :47:49.down. Are you are facing the prospect of the election in two

:47:49. > :47:54.years time with some dread? real challenge is the development

:47:54. > :47:58.of the infrastructure in Croydon. There are lots of empty buildings

:47:58. > :48:02.and the origin of this goes back to the previous Labour authority. We

:48:02. > :48:09.have got to get inward investment which will address the jobs we are

:48:09. > :48:13.speaking about. There is massive potential for it very bright, very

:48:13. > :48:18.intelligent constituency. That is the direction we should be going in.

:48:18. > :48:24.Thank you very much. It has been called the billion pound gamble.

:48:24. > :48:29.Next week, Barnett council will vote on whether to proceed with the

:48:29. > :48:34.largest outsourcing of services ever seen in the UK. Two companies

:48:34. > :48:40.will be responsible for delivering the services.

:48:40. > :48:45.Getting ready for the big day. Next Thursday, the council will vote on

:48:46. > :48:50.whether to adopt one of the most controversial policies in the

:48:50. > :48:55.capital has seen for years. They could be the largest privatisation

:48:55. > :49:01.that this country has ever seen. Earlier this year, this library was

:49:01. > :49:08.shot by the council. It was then opened by squatters. Donations have

:49:08. > :49:14.filled the shelves. It is a hub for protest and campaigning. We have

:49:14. > :49:20.held a space where people can knead, organise, you can see them painting

:49:20. > :49:24.banners and other things. We have had discussions and meetings.

:49:24. > :49:32.the programme is not that popular in this particular corner of the

:49:32. > :49:37.borough. The people here saviour protecting public services against

:49:37. > :49:41.the cuts, but ironically, that is what the council would say they are

:49:41. > :49:46.doing as well. They say they are saving millions of pounds and

:49:46. > :49:50.making sure that other libraries and other services can stay open.

:49:50. > :49:56.What ever the banners may say, revolution is a term that is often

:49:56. > :50:02.replied -- is a term that is often applied to what the council are up

:50:02. > :50:07.to. Two private companies will be awarded contracts worth a total of

:50:07. > :50:13.�1 billion to run council services for the next 10 years. The council

:50:13. > :50:19.expects savings of �20 million. The local campaign group question

:50:19. > :50:27.whether a day know what they are getting into? We asked about this.

:50:27. > :50:32.I said, Richard, is this not 800 pages long. He said, no, this

:50:32. > :50:38.contract is a 1,000 pages long. I said, how long do you have to read

:50:38. > :50:42.it? He said, no one is going to read it. There are concerns that

:50:42. > :50:49.one for everything has moved out, the council will not know what is

:50:49. > :50:53.going on. When a manager is in the building with his staff, he can

:50:53. > :50:58.monitor what is going on, but you're not going to have that with

:50:58. > :51:03.a private company. Fans of privatisation are unsure about his

:51:03. > :51:07.contract. This man, currently suspended from the Tory group on

:51:07. > :51:12.the council, thinks this is far from healthy free market

:51:12. > :51:16.competition. We are replacing the monolith of the council with the

:51:16. > :51:26.monolith of a private company based hundreds of miles away. That is not

:51:26. > :51:27.

:51:27. > :51:31.the answer to deliver efficiencies for residence. -- for the people

:51:31. > :51:37.who live here. Other local authorities have tried similar

:51:37. > :51:42.things and not always had great success. Some authorities have

:51:42. > :51:46.looked at this and pulled back, like Sussex -- like Suffolk. Essex

:51:46. > :51:52.pioneered a version of this policy and Cornwall have done something

:51:52. > :51:59.similar. In Cornwall, it did not work out very well. Contracts had

:51:59. > :52:05.to be brought back in house. This policy has become more than just a

:52:05. > :52:08.local issue. It has become national news. With councils all over the

:52:08. > :52:13.country desperate to save money, some are saying this is the

:52:13. > :52:18.ultimate test case as to whether privatisation in this way works. He

:52:18. > :52:23.may not have read the contract will be to us but he is here to defend

:52:23. > :52:28.and! The Conservatives would have been

:52:28. > :52:32.right behind efficiency drives by the council before. He says you are

:52:32. > :52:37.replacing a public sector monopoly with a private one? Not really. It

:52:37. > :52:43.is a small part of the council's activities that we are replacing

:52:43. > :52:51.with the private sector. It is the back office things, human resources,

:52:51. > :52:58.pay well, things like that. What percentage of services? It is 13 %.

:52:58. > :53:04.In terms of the costs, what percentage? 13 %. Have you got

:53:04. > :53:10.housing and that? No, housing is run by a separate company.

:53:10. > :53:14.you're speaking about human resources, legal? It is an all-

:53:14. > :53:20.embracing programme, it is not ideological. We're bringing the

:53:20. > :53:24.recycling service back in house. While are you doing it? Why do you

:53:24. > :53:28.not accept that local services closer to the electorate and with

:53:28. > :53:35.the length to UN fellow councillors, in showers a more responsive

:53:35. > :53:40.service? It is more important to keep services going. Reducing the

:53:40. > :53:47.cost of services will keep other things going. It is very difficult

:53:47. > :53:51.to shut a library. We do not want to do it. Deceiving -- the saving

:53:51. > :53:57.we will make is the equivalent of 12 primary schools. It is a big

:53:57. > :54:02.deal for Barnet. Have you out source children's services? And no.

:54:02. > :54:07.But you have outsource services for disabled adults? To yes, some of

:54:07. > :54:13.that is outsourced. Have you had more complaints about services than

:54:13. > :54:18.before hand? No. So why are you not thinking about a good sourcing

:54:18. > :54:26.children's services? It has not come up at this stage. We're

:54:26. > :54:30.looking at things that are easy to out sewers, like the back office.

:54:30. > :54:36.It is no fun subsidising bureaucrats. It is much better to

:54:36. > :54:41.reduce the cost of the bureaucracy in order to fund services. Is this

:54:41. > :54:47.the way of the world, does he have to do something like this? It is

:54:47. > :54:52.the way of the world. We have got to reduce public expenditure. We

:54:52. > :54:56.have been spending too much and it started to many years ago. This is

:54:56. > :55:00.a sensible approach. It was recognised by the last government

:55:00. > :55:06.that commissioning services out was a trend that started some years ago.

:55:06. > :55:10.It is not who is doing it, it is the quality of the service. I am

:55:10. > :55:18.sure that Richard will have done due diligence about the quality of

:55:18. > :55:21.the service. If it works, it is a sensible idea. Presumably, you

:55:21. > :55:27.would welcome at those of his private sector efficiency. Tower

:55:27. > :55:30.Hamlets council are currently run by an independent? Eyes think the

:55:30. > :55:34.central question is about the quality of service and

:55:34. > :55:38.accountability to the electorate. This is public money and just

:55:38. > :55:44.because it goes to the private sector, it does not mean it is a

:55:44. > :55:48.good thing. There is a massive debate to be had. If you take the

:55:48. > :55:51.G4S scandal where the Conservative- led government felt they could

:55:51. > :55:57.trust this private company to deliver employees, that was a

:55:57. > :56:03.fiasco. But they were fined when they did not deliver, they did not

:56:03. > :56:07.get the money. The army had to stepping. We have got a review at

:56:07. > :56:13.three years and six years. We can back away from it and change what

:56:13. > :56:17.is going on. The G4S scandal was much more ambitious, it was

:56:17. > :56:27.something that had never been provided before. These services are

:56:27. > :56:28.

:56:28. > :56:33.well known. How many council staff are going? 197. Do you think this

:56:33. > :56:36.will provide more efficiency and control? There is full democratic

:56:36. > :56:44.control wherever the human- resources department is. It does

:56:44. > :56:47.not matter. It is not seen by the public, it is not public facing.

:56:48. > :56:55.you think this is a big risk a couple of years away from local

:56:55. > :57:00.elections? No. Mr Pickles is right. We have got to take money out of

:57:00. > :57:05.the budgets. It is better to take money out of the budget by cutting

:57:05. > :57:09.back office services. Richard has much experience social services and

:57:10. > :57:17.education. Does this said the green light on the much more sensitive

:57:17. > :57:22.services? That is my worry. Other councils will go much further.

:57:22. > :57:32.can come back and debated at another time. We're taking

:57:32. > :57:37.recycling services backing house. have to stop you. This is something

:57:37. > :57:46.we will return to. Thank you for coming in. Now it is time for a

:57:46. > :57:50.round-up of the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.

:57:50. > :57:55.The Mayor of London jetted off to India on a week-long trip promoting

:57:55. > :58:03.the capital. Immigration, business and the odd game of critic all got

:58:03. > :58:08.a look-in. -- cricket kit. Mark Carney rode into the Square Mile as

:58:08. > :58:11.the brand new governor of the Bank of England. The finishing line in

:58:11. > :58:15.the race to occupy the Olympic Stadium comes into sight as West

:58:15. > :58:20.Ham are chosen as the preferred tenant. An announcement is expected

:58:20. > :58:26.next week. A victory for this London MP in her fight against pay-

:58:26. > :58:33.day loans as the Government agrees to cap the cost of credit. After

:58:33. > :58:38.defending City Hall's record of the mayor's adviser was this week taken

:58:38. > :58:44.to task by the London assembly by failing to meet her pledge to

:58:44. > :58:53.creating partnerships. Disgracefully little has been

:58:53. > :58:56.achieved in three years. No one says it is easy, but three years

:58:56. > :59:02.down the line, I key promise seems to have got nowhere and this

:59:02. > :59:08.mentoring project? It is not a difficult thing to achieve an Boris

:59:08. > :59:13.Johnson has managed to fail on that. It is scandalous. I have set up a

:59:13. > :59:17.programme to encourage mentoring. It is working across parties. There

:59:17. > :59:22.are many other initiatives that can help and organisations that can

:59:23. > :59:26.partner and their missing the opportunity to do that. Youth

:59:26. > :59:31.unemployment, youth disengagement, we had the right it's not long ago,

:59:31. > :59:37.this was supposed to be a key programme? We have got to agree on

:59:37. > :59:43.this. It is unsatisfactory. It has got to be properly implemented. It

:59:43. > :59:48.goes back to the debate in Barnet, it is the quality of the service.

:59:48. > :59:53.They are real launching the project and that is welcomed. We must not

:59:53. > :59:58.parachute mentors in, we have got to have good local people. We're

:59:58. > :00:08.running out of time. This is about unemployment. We have dealt with it

:00:08. > :00:12.

:00:12. > :00:22.before. When you come back, we will politics next week with our

:00:22. > :00:24.

:00:24. > :00:28.political panel, but first the news The Chancellor George Osborne has

:00:28. > :00:32.at the rich will have to pay their fair share to help reduce the

:00:32. > :00:36.deficit. Speaking ahead of his autumn statement this week, he

:00:36. > :00:42.admitted efforts to reduce the deficit and return the economy to

:00:42. > :00:46.growth are taking longer than anyone would have hoped.

:00:46. > :00:51.The economic road ahead is likely to be more bumpy than the

:00:51. > :00:55.Chancellor has previously suggested, despite his smiles today he has

:00:55. > :00:59.acknowledged he is set to miss one of his main targets to reduce debt

:00:59. > :01:05.as a share of national income by the time of the next election.

:01:05. > :01:09.have to deal with this deficit, it will take longer and it has to be

:01:09. > :01:14.done fairly. That means the richest have to bear their fair share and

:01:14. > :01:18.they will. We will also tackle welfare bills, and that is a

:01:18. > :01:23.reproach, making the rich pay but also tackling the welfare system

:01:23. > :01:27.which is deeply unfair. Labour has once again accused the Chancellor

:01:27. > :01:33.of being reckless by failing to change course given the lack of

:01:33. > :01:38.economic growth. I think the idea of freezing unemployment benefits

:01:38. > :01:42.whilst giving a tax cut for millionaires of �3 billion is a

:01:42. > :01:45.question of choices and priorities. The Chancellor says Labour's plans

:01:45. > :01:51.to spend more would undermine the credibility of the deficit

:01:51. > :01:55.reduction plan, something he argues would be catastrophic. Instead

:01:55. > :02:00.there is speculation that George Osborne could hit the world fleet

:02:00. > :02:04.by limiting tax relief on pensions and freezing some benefits.

:02:04. > :02:10.Taliban suicide bombers have attacked a US air base in eastern

:02:10. > :02:16.Afghanistan earlier this morning. They struck at the airfield in

:02:16. > :02:24.Jalalabad, sparking a two hour gone battle. Our correspondent is in

:02:24. > :02:28.Kabul - what can you tell us? was a complex co-ordinated attack

:02:28. > :02:34.involving, we believe, up to nine suicide bombers. They came with

:02:34. > :02:38.vehicles laden with explosives and on foot. They tried to storm the

:02:38. > :02:43.perimeter of the base and didn't manage to get through, although

:02:43. > :02:47.they attacked simultaneously from different directions. They were

:02:47. > :02:51.fought off at the entrance. The Taliban had come with rocket-

:02:51. > :02:57.propelled grenades and NATO fought back with attack helicopters which

:02:57. > :03:03.were quickly in the air. Two civilians were killed and Afghan

:03:03. > :03:08.officials are investigating whether any of those people could have been

:03:08. > :03:18.victims of friendly fire. NATO are saying they are co-operating with

:03:18. > :03:21.

:03:21. > :03:27.the investigation. David Beckham has signed off his days playing

:03:27. > :03:31.football in America by helping his LA Galaxy team beat Houston Dynamo

:03:31. > :03:36.in the Cup final. He didn't get on the scoresheet but said afterwards

:03:36. > :03:41.he had really enjoyed his six years in the States. He is now looking

:03:41. > :03:49.for another club to finish his career with. That is all the news

:03:49. > :03:54.now, but there is more at 5:50pm. Will we finally hear a peep from

:03:54. > :03:58.the newspaper editors this week as they come up with their new tough

:03:58. > :04:03.form of self regulation? And how will the Chancellor strike a

:04:03. > :04:11.balance between taxing the rich and cutting welfare? All big questions

:04:11. > :04:17.for the week ahead. Where are the editors? They run the papers and we

:04:17. > :04:27.have hardly heard a peep from them. They have not been on to give their

:04:27. > :04:31.position or say what they intend to do. My suspicion is that newspaper

:04:31. > :04:37.editors would always make this easy for David Cameron. They would get

:04:37. > :04:39.their act together, set up some kind of self-regulating institution

:04:39. > :04:44.at short order to prevent the pressure building on him to go for

:04:44. > :04:49.the legislation option. Maybe by the new year we you will see

:04:49. > :04:55.something on that front. When I was a newspaper editor and regularly

:04:56. > :05:00.got into trouble, I've made myself available either defending or

:05:00. > :05:05.apologising. Where are they are invisible men, these editors?

:05:05. > :05:13.are far too busy going through the report closely and properly, unlike

:05:13. > :05:16.Ed Miliband. Were you told to say that? The eye wasn't! I would say

:05:16. > :05:24.the editors clearly recognise they have got to hurry up and find a

:05:24. > :05:29.solution. They're hiding. Star and it had been in decline since you

:05:29. > :05:34.were the editor of a national newspaper, Andrew. Most of them are

:05:34. > :05:38.utterly useless on television, but they are not in agreement. Most of

:05:38. > :05:43.the editors want to sign up to the black Homs proposal which is not

:05:43. > :05:50.strong enough. You have my editor and others saying you have got to

:05:50. > :05:54.go further. Until they are in agreement, they are not credible.

:05:54. > :05:59.think one of the reasons is they are frightened they are on the

:05:59. > :06:05.wrong end of public opinion and dealing with things like this.

:06:05. > :06:09.Let's listen to this. David Cameron is of course the Prime Minister and

:06:10. > :06:14.has made a point of principle which personally I disagree with and I

:06:14. > :06:20.think the majority will, and this is not about party-political

:06:20. > :06:24.politics. Let's be clear about this. This is a review which he ordered,

:06:24. > :06:29.we have had a lot of money spent, a lot of time and a lot of people

:06:29. > :06:34.have given evidence which wasn't easy to do, and the public expect

:06:34. > :06:38.the Leveson inquiry to be implemented in full. Since then

:06:39. > :06:42.over 100,000 people have signed this petition which gives an

:06:42. > :06:47.indication of public opinion. Given that, I would suggest that whatever

:06:47. > :06:54.the disagreement between the editors, when they meet next week

:06:55. > :06:59.they have no alternative but to accept lock, stock and barrel or

:06:59. > :07:05.the Leveson principles. I think most of the papers have said they

:07:05. > :07:09.do accept most of what Leveson has said, but I also think one point

:07:09. > :07:14.that has been forgotten here is that there has been a huge cultural

:07:14. > :07:18.change in the last few years alone on newspapers and I don't think

:07:18. > :07:23.people will see a dramatic change compared to how things are now.

:07:23. > :07:28.People don't go out pursuing children any more. I would say

:07:28. > :07:34.cultural. People are wanting to see real change, not the culture

:07:34. > :07:39.changing. Put aside statutory for the moment, they don't just want

:07:39. > :07:45.the principles to be accepted lock, stock and barrel, they want it to

:07:45. > :07:51.be done quickly. Not by June as David Hunt is talking about. Their

:07:51. > :07:54.desire for that only rises when they see testimonies from victims.

:07:54. > :07:59.If you were being intellectually rigorous about it, you would say

:07:59. > :08:03.what other area would you allow the grievances of victims alone to

:08:03. > :08:07.shape responses, but the political reality is different to the

:08:07. > :08:11.intellectual purity of the arguments and if the voices of

:08:11. > :08:19.victims to grow in the coming weeks, it becomes harder and harder to

:08:19. > :08:23.resist that. Lord Hunt, the chairman of the PCC, and Lord Black

:08:23. > :08:29.found a cheeky way of doing a souped-up BCC there was rejected

:08:29. > :08:35.out of hand by Leveson and the Prime Minister. It was quite robust

:08:35. > :08:39.what was suggested, with fines of over �1 million. The Prime Minister

:08:39. > :08:44.is saying it is still self- regulation, and he has said you

:08:44. > :08:48.have got to implement the Leveson principles, which is complete

:08:48. > :08:53.independence over this, over the selection, over the board. If you

:08:53. > :08:58.are clever enough to do that, maybe you will be able to escape

:08:58. > :09:02.statutory underpinning. It was a cheeky attempt by them and it is

:09:02. > :09:07.over. If they can get up to the Leveson principles, the Prime

:09:07. > :09:12.Minister will be with them and he believes he can then see off

:09:12. > :09:17.statutory underpinning. Another idea - smack a million pounds on

:09:17. > :09:22.somebody quickly to show you mean it. Or �1 million of turnover.

:09:22. > :09:27.the case of the Daily Mirror that wouldn't be much, or the

:09:27. > :09:33.Independent. Let's move on to the Autumn Statement. I would suggest

:09:33. > :09:36.that by this stage, what George Osborne had hoped he would be doing

:09:36. > :09:40.two-and-a-half-year sins of his coalition is to come and say at

:09:40. > :09:45.this autumn statement it has been hard pounding but we have turned a

:09:45. > :09:51.corner. Things are getting better. It has been tough, but it has been

:09:51. > :09:56.worth it. He can say none of that, or if he does he is not backed up

:09:56. > :10:01.by the figures. The know, and his message for 2015 was always going

:10:01. > :10:06.to be that we can look forward to looser fiscal policy in the next

:10:06. > :10:10.Parliament. He will probably have to resort to the message that

:10:10. > :10:16.things will be even worse under Labour and we have maintained an

:10:16. > :10:20.even keel so far. I still get the sense that his political stock has

:10:20. > :10:24.stabilised a little bit in recent months, partly because there was

:10:24. > :10:28.decent growth in the last quarter but also partly because of the

:10:28. > :10:38.disappointment of Mark Carney as the governor of Bank of England has

:10:38. > :10:43.gone down so well. A let me show you the Sunday Times front page.

:10:43. > :10:47.This was one of the possible leaks in the papers this morning. The tax

:10:47. > :10:52.raid on the world they refers to cutting the pension privileges, if

:10:52. > :10:57.I can put it that way. The coverage is more concerned with whether a

:10:57. > :11:06.deal can be done with the Lib Dems rather than where is the economy

:11:06. > :11:11.I think it is the wrong time to assess George Osborne's stock,

:11:11. > :11:16.because before the last Budget it was higher than just afterwards.

:11:16. > :11:21.What strikes me is the atmosphere in which this has been conducted.

:11:21. > :11:27.It seems more of a smooth process, it seems they have learnt some

:11:27. > :11:32.lessons and I think they know there will be no mercy for the type of

:11:32. > :11:37.political blunder that led to the pasty tax and for presentational

:11:38. > :11:43.blunders that led to the crummy tax. I think it is important for David

:11:43. > :11:52.Cameron to speak up for George Osborne. He will not be meeting his

:11:52. > :11:56.debt target, it seems, on the judgment over the OBR. He could say

:11:57. > :12:02.I am determined to meet that debt target, and he could do that

:12:02. > :12:05.through masses of cuts but he will take a flexible approach. Chris

:12:06. > :12:12.Huhne said you must not be lashed to the mast in the where you deal

:12:12. > :12:16.with deficit. Clearly George Osborne is not, he is taking a more

:12:16. > :12:23.flexible approach and avoiding the stringent cuts you would have to

:12:23. > :12:28.have if you said you were sticking to the fiscal mandate come hell or

:12:28. > :12:33.high water. There is a thought within Tory circles that the

:12:33. > :12:38.public's tolerance of austerity is slightly higher than the media

:12:38. > :12:44.perhaps believes. The proof was in last year's Autumn Statement.

:12:44. > :12:48.George Osborne gave the bleakest statement we have heard since the

:12:48. > :12:53.war, and the public reaction against it was more or less zero.

:12:53. > :12:59.Then the following weeks there was no change in the polls. You are

:12:59. > :13:05.trying your best to put a positive spin on it because you wrote a book

:13:05. > :13:12.about him but in the end this was supposed to be the year or fun and

:13:12. > :13:17.it has not played out that way. That is all for the sweet but don't

:13:17. > :13:21.forget to join me on Wednesday at 11:30am on BBC Two with Prime

:13:21. > :13:26.Minister's questions, then straight into the autumn statement from the