:00:42. > :00:45.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics at the end of a
:00:45. > :00:49.week when we had an autumn statement with a distinct winter
:00:49. > :00:53.chill. The Chancellor said he would miss his debt target, but the
:00:53. > :00:57.country will have to borrow even more her and that we are looking at
:00:57. > :01:00.austerity for as far as the eye can see.
:01:00. > :01:04.But business largely welcomed the Autumn Statement, with its lower
:01:04. > :01:08.taxes on profits, tax relief for investment and the beginning of a
:01:08. > :01:14.rise in fuel duty. We will ask the Shadow Business Secretary if he
:01:14. > :01:17.agrees. And je ne regrette rien - I'm A
:01:17. > :01:21.Celebrity's Nadine Dorries to us -- tells us she would do it all again
:01:21. > :01:30.and lashes out at her tormentors. The papers are full of scurrilous
:01:30. > :01:33.lies about myself and my family. In 7 1/2 years, I have never taken a
:01:33. > :01:38.single parliamentary day away, not one.
:01:38. > :01:41.In London, 60 years on from the great smog, the mayor has joined
:01:41. > :01:51.forces with some of Europe's are the worst polluters to try to
:01:51. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:57.soften European regulations. With me as always, the best and
:01:57. > :02:01.brightest political panel in the business. This week, it is in
:02:01. > :02:07.Martin, Janan Ganesh and Rowenna Davis, who will be tweeting with
:02:07. > :02:11.gusto throughout the programme. Sadly, gusto could not make it.
:02:11. > :02:15.Anyway, a tough autumn statement, with George Osborne reneging on
:02:15. > :02:19.deficit and debt targets and forced to admit that the austerity were
:02:19. > :02:22.last even longer. But finding enough money down the back of the
:02:22. > :02:26.Number 11 sofa to cut taxes on businesses, raised the personal
:02:26. > :02:30.income tax allowance even higher and scrap that planned rise in the
:02:30. > :02:33.price of fuel. We will be talking about all that, but firstly, the
:02:33. > :02:37.Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, was out and about
:02:37. > :02:41.this morning and was asked about companies like Starbucks, Amazon
:02:41. > :02:47.and Google and the way they seem to pay less tax than most of us would
:02:47. > :02:51.like. Thinking of the tax system as a church plate going around on a
:02:51. > :02:58.Sunday morning is the wrong way to think about it. Our job and the
:02:58. > :03:01.responsibility of taxpayers is to pay the proper amount of tax. Any
:03:01. > :03:05.businesses who want to rectify their arrangements, I welcome that.
:03:05. > :03:10.But there are millions of small businesses and individuals who pay
:03:10. > :03:15.the proper amount of tax day in, day out.
:03:15. > :03:19.I am a little puzzled here. The politicians of the left and right
:03:19. > :03:24.agree that these tax rules with companies like Starbucks, and then
:03:24. > :03:27.when it does not result in enough tax, they say they should pay more?
:03:27. > :03:30.In is almost as if the political class can be Seamus and
:03:30. > :03:35.irresponsible sometimes. I think the government is doing two things
:03:35. > :03:39.to deal with this. One is toughening up rules and a closing
:03:39. > :03:43.loopholes, and the other is moral exhortation. Only one of those
:03:43. > :03:47.strategies is viable. We are rules based society. If you don't like
:03:47. > :03:52.the legal behaviour of businesses, toughen up the law. We are not a
:03:52. > :03:57.mob. This reminds me of last year's bonus row at RBS regarding Stephen
:03:57. > :04:04.Hester, where again business in the private sector took its own
:04:04. > :04:07.decisions within the law, but was forced to reverse it through sheer
:04:07. > :04:11.public exhortation from public opinion and politicians. If we want
:04:11. > :04:17.companies to pay the proper rate of tax, we need to change the rules,
:04:17. > :04:20.not ask for a handout. Absolutely. It is fantastic that a right-wing
:04:20. > :04:24.Chancellor has endorsed the views of what was once considered a
:04:25. > :04:28.radical left-wing action group in the form of UK Uncut. But despite
:04:28. > :04:34.the posturing, we have to look at the legislation and make those
:04:34. > :04:39.changes. That will be difficult when you have got these massive
:04:39. > :04:44.cuts to HMRC. But he is bringing more people in. He has put more
:04:44. > :04:49.money into that particular area, but the overall cuts to HMRC are
:04:49. > :04:52.still 20%. Whether they can counteract that is another issue.
:04:52. > :04:58.The Chancellor has won a massive victory if all we are talking about
:04:58. > :05:02.in relation to the Autumn Statement is his statements on closing tax
:05:02. > :05:10.loopholes. The real issue for working poor people is, where does
:05:10. > :05:13.the growth come from? De HMRC is doing its job, policing the rules.
:05:13. > :05:19.Starbucks is paying the tax it should under the rules. It is not
:05:19. > :05:23.that you need more people at HMRC, you need better rules so that these
:05:23. > :05:26.guys pay a proper amount of tax. That is right. Politicians are
:05:27. > :05:31.being hypocritical here. Can we be certain that any politician who is
:05:31. > :05:34.complaining loudly now, they must not have voted for the Finance
:05:34. > :05:37.Bills in the last 15 years. Did George Osborne tackle the head of
:05:37. > :05:42.Google on this when he had him round to dinner a couple of years
:05:42. > :05:48.ago? No, he didn't. He had him round for dinner in Number 10?
:05:48. > :05:52.Absolutely. He is close to the Osborne has and Cameron. This is
:05:52. > :05:56.not just a British problem. I was reading Der Spiegel earlier this
:05:56. > :05:59.week. The Germans have a problem with this as well. These are
:05:59. > :06:03.European rules which have backfired on the European countries, because
:06:03. > :06:07.they are all basing themselves in Luxembourg, which is virtually a
:06:07. > :06:11.tax haven, and all the profits are being remitted their anti-European
:06:11. > :06:15.people are getting nothing. I do not buy the idea that with time, we
:06:15. > :06:19.can eliminate the loopholes. It is a persistent problem. But the
:06:19. > :06:23.biggest worry about Starbucks choosing to pay what it regards as
:06:23. > :06:27.its proper tax share rather than the strictly legal one is that it
:06:27. > :06:31.makes tax revenues difficult for the Treasury to predict. Danny
:06:31. > :06:36.Alexander used the metaphor of a ball being passed around church. We
:06:36. > :06:41.are heading towards that model. If companies are choosing their right
:06:41. > :06:47.for moral share of tax rather than the legal obligation... I would
:06:47. > :06:51.like to do that! That is true, but this should be seen as a rebellion
:06:51. > :06:56.against globalisation. It is no mystery why voters are annoyed
:06:56. > :07:03.about this. They are being squeezed and a siege companies which exist
:07:03. > :07:07.above the nation-state Peng hardly any tax and making a fortune.
:07:07. > :07:10.After George Osborne's March Budget, a new word entered the political
:07:10. > :07:14.lexicon, omnishambles, as the Chancellor will from bad headlines
:07:14. > :07:18.about his plans for taxes on pasties, grannies, caravans and
:07:19. > :07:22.charitable gifts. Come last week's Autumn Statement, the public
:07:22. > :07:26.finances were in an even worse state, but Mr Osborne got a better
:07:26. > :07:31.press, perhaps because it was an assured performance. But the more
:07:31. > :07:33.you look at the figures he unveiled, the more you are struck by the
:07:33. > :07:38.precarious state of deficits and the national debt.
:07:38. > :07:43.He promised the national debt would begin to fall as a proportion of
:07:43. > :07:48.our annual output by 2015-16, but it will not. He has had to postpone
:07:48. > :07:54.hitting his target for the deficit again. In 2010, he said he would
:07:54. > :07:58.meet it by 2015. Last year, he put it back to 2017. Now he has
:07:58. > :08:02.announced another year of spending cuts, prolonging austerity until at
:08:02. > :08:05.least 2018. The forecast of how much money the government will
:08:05. > :08:09.borrow each year has increased since they were announced in the
:08:09. > :08:14.March Budget. Even so, the Institute for Fiscal Studies said
:08:14. > :08:19.the figure shows a �27 billion gap in the government finances for the
:08:19. > :08:23.years after the election, a black hole which implies a further
:08:23. > :08:26.squeeze off public spending, extra borrowing or tax rises. If the
:08:26. > :08:32.Government was to continue to protect health, schools and
:08:32. > :08:38.international aid from any cuts, other departments could face budget
:08:38. > :08:42.cuts of 30% since the last election. Joining me now, Business Minister
:08:42. > :08:47.Matthew Hancock. When the Chancellor took over in 2010, he
:08:47. > :08:50.said he would abolish the deficit by 2015. Now the Office of Budget
:08:50. > :08:55.Responsibility tells us not just that we will still have a deficit
:08:55. > :09:01.by 2015, but the highest deficit in the Western world. Could you think
:09:01. > :09:06.of a clearer definition of failure? I do not think it is failure. The
:09:06. > :09:14.crucial thing shown this week is that we are making progress. The
:09:14. > :09:18.deficit is coming down. Everybody knows it is harder than expected.
:09:18. > :09:23.There was something telling in the statistics you read out, which is
:09:23. > :09:29.that other countries are dealing with their deficits. And we need to
:09:29. > :09:33.deal with ours. Ours is the highest. We started with the highest by some
:09:33. > :09:38.margin. We had the biggest boom and the biggest bus. We did not have a
:09:38. > :09:43.higher deficit by Spain, Greece or Italy and by 2015, we will. In 2010,
:09:43. > :09:48.we had the highest deficit in Europe and the highest in the
:09:48. > :09:52.developed world outside of Iceland. And after five years, we will still
:09:52. > :09:57.have the highest. The astonishing thing is that despite the fact that
:09:57. > :10:02.we were left with the biggest deficit, because we have the
:10:02. > :10:05.political will and the credibility to bring it down, we have been
:10:05. > :10:10.rewarded with very low interest rates and which we can borrow,
:10:10. > :10:14.where some of the other countries have lower deficits, but worse
:10:15. > :10:21.interest rates which are harming their economies even more. And that
:10:21. > :10:26.is because they do not have had a steady path and the political will
:10:26. > :10:30.to deal with it. In March, the Chancellor told us how much he
:10:30. > :10:38.would borrow in the years ahead up to 2016. That was just nine months
:10:38. > :10:46.ago. How much more has he told us we will have to borrow? It depends
:10:46. > :10:51.over what period. From 2011-12- 2016-17. He has told us he will now
:10:51. > :10:56.have to borrow �104 billion more than he told us nine months ago.
:10:56. > :11:01.That is not credible. That is the Keystone Kops of public finance.
:11:01. > :11:10.used to be an economic forecaster. You could do better than that.
:11:10. > :11:14.much. 104 billion in nine months. The crucial point is firstly that
:11:14. > :11:19.those forecasts are now made independently. Anybody who believes
:11:19. > :11:22.they should be made independently needs to agree with the forecasts.
:11:22. > :11:27.So when you have Ed Balls saying they are wrong, he is saying we
:11:27. > :11:32.should not have an independent forecast. Secondly, although it is
:11:32. > :11:36.difficult, the deficit is coming down. That shows that we are making
:11:36. > :11:42.progress, as well as the unemployment figures being better.
:11:42. > :11:46.As I visit companies around the country, you know from everything
:11:46. > :11:53.you hear that it is crucial that we keep on the path of gradually
:11:53. > :11:59.bringing our deficit down. Except that you are borrowing 100 billion
:11:59. > :12:04.more than you said nine months ago. The failure of the opposition to
:12:04. > :12:08.put a credible case this week shows more eloquently than we could that
:12:08. > :12:18.this is the only path possible. opposition will be following you,
:12:18. > :12:19.
:12:19. > :12:25.so I will deal with them. Look at this figure. The higher-rate
:12:25. > :12:28.taxpayers included 3 million when you came to power. By 2015, there
:12:28. > :12:32.will be 4.2 million. Did you think you would be part of a Tory
:12:32. > :12:36.government which is dragging thousands of middle income people
:12:36. > :12:41.into rate tax bracket at your party invented only for the very
:12:41. > :12:47.affluent? As everybody in this Government has said, we are all in
:12:47. > :12:51.it together. We say that not only as a description and a values
:12:51. > :12:55.argument, but practically. Yes of course, there are more people who
:12:55. > :13:03.have to pay in the higher rate band. I do not wish that was the case,
:13:03. > :13:06.but do I wish the cuts to fall elsewhere? No. We have a massive
:13:06. > :13:13.deficit, bigger than almost anywhere in the world, so we have
:13:13. > :13:18.to deal with it. So saying we are all in it together involves people
:13:18. > :13:22.paying their part of the burden. But these people are in the middle.
:13:22. > :13:28.They are striving and you are taking away their child benefit.
:13:28. > :13:34.400,000 are being squeezed. You are supposed to be in favour of these
:13:34. > :13:38.at strivers. They are on an average -- above average Sorry, but they
:13:38. > :13:44.are now in a tax band designed for millionaires in the Cabinet, not
:13:44. > :13:48.these middle-income people. I am not sure you understand the squeeze.
:13:48. > :13:52.In the autumn statement, those in the higher rate band but earning
:13:52. > :13:59.below �100,000 will get a tax cut last year because the threshold is
:13:59. > :14:04.going up so that the rate at which anybody starts to pay tax is going
:14:04. > :14:08.up, which means people are paying less tax. The 40% threshold is
:14:08. > :14:16.going up by less than the rate of inflation. That is a tax rise.
:14:16. > :14:20.new ad in the fact that the basic threshold is going up, for
:14:20. > :14:25.everybody, the threshold is going up. So next year, there is a tax
:14:25. > :14:29.cut for everybody. And we are taking 2 million of the lowest paid
:14:29. > :14:35.out of tax altogether. This is a big change in our tax system so
:14:35. > :14:38.that until you earn �9,500, you pay no tax at all. If you are on the
:14:38. > :14:43.minimum wage, you pay half the amount of income tax you did in
:14:43. > :14:47.2010. And if you are on a middle income, the new norm for you is a
:14:47. > :14:51.40% tax rate which was never meant for these people. George Osborne
:14:51. > :14:54.once said we should judge him on went for -- whether Britain keeps
:14:54. > :14:59.its triple-A rating. Should we still judge him on that? We have
:14:59. > :15:06.still got our triple-A rating. will lose it, should we judge him
:15:06. > :15:09.badly? We are trying to deal with Britain's problems and make
:15:09. > :15:13.ourselves competitive for the years ahead in this difficult environment.
:15:13. > :15:20.As you have seen, the argument on the other side is to put up
:15:20. > :15:24.borrowing. We are trying to do everything we can to bring it down.
:15:24. > :15:30.But do we join -- judge Mr Osborne badly if we lose our triple-A
:15:30. > :15:35.rating? But we have still got it. And if we lose it in January, do we
:15:35. > :15:40.judge him badly? We have still got it. Remind me why you once compared
:15:40. > :15:50.yourself to Churchill and Disraeli? I didn't. I was admiring them. But
:15:50. > :15:51.
:15:51. > :15:56.I know how the media works and That's the Tory take on the all the
:15:56. > :15:58.-- on the Autumn Statement? What about Labour? Ed Miliband says
:15:58. > :16:01.Labour would make growth a priority. There were plenty of new measures
:16:01. > :16:06.in the statement designed to help British business get the economy
:16:06. > :16:11.going again. The rabbit out of the hat was
:16:11. > :16:18.another cut in corporation tax on company profits. From April 2014,
:16:18. > :16:21.it will be a low 21%, down from 28% when the coalition came in. There
:16:21. > :16:25.were cheers when the Chancellor cancelled the rise in fuel duty.
:16:25. > :16:30.There was help for small businesses. Mr Osbourne he can tended rate
:16:30. > :16:34.relief for another year which meant that 350,000 firms won't have to
:16:34. > :16:38.pay anything at all. And there was a ten-fold increase in the amount
:16:38. > :16:45.of money businesses can spend on investment and benefit from speedy
:16:45. > :16:48.tax relief. It's tprup �25,000, to �250,000. The institute of
:16:49. > :16:54.directors which represents entrepreneurs as well as business
:16:54. > :17:00.executives, declared the Autumn Statement is, a tricky job, well
:17:00. > :17:06.done by George Osborne. Does Labour agree?
:17:06. > :17:11.Labour's shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna, joins me now for the
:17:12. > :17:14.Sunday Interview. Chuka Umunna, whatever its other
:17:14. > :17:18.weaknesses and I am sure you think there are many, business thought
:17:18. > :17:21.the Autumn Statement was good for business. Does the shadow Business
:17:21. > :17:24.Secretary agree? It will be churlish of me to deny that there
:17:24. > :17:30.were some measures that certainly welcome here, for example, the U-
:17:30. > :17:34.turn on cutting capital allowances, they increase capital allowance is
:17:34. > :17:37.good. We also saw the cut in corporation tax and a few other
:17:37. > :17:41.measures, as well. I wouldn't deny that there weren't measures there
:17:41. > :17:45.that were welcome. Fuel duty? Absolutely, I mean, that was
:17:45. > :17:49.welcome, too. That was something that we called for. Two things,
:17:49. > :17:53.they were very disappointed that there wasn't more in this Autumn
:17:53. > :17:56.Statement to address the issue of finance. The lack of finance, the
:17:56. > :18:00.lack of access to finance for profitable successful businesses
:18:00. > :18:04.that can't get it has been a perennial problem. The Government's
:18:04. > :18:10.project Merlin scheme failed in that respect, as did it its credit
:18:10. > :18:13.easing scheme and we have yet to see the funding scheme work in that
:18:13. > :18:17.respect. They wanted more news on the business bank Vince Cable has
:18:17. > :18:20.talked about. The other issue is the operation of the national
:18:20. > :18:24.insurance break, particularly the Federation of Small Businesses have
:18:24. > :18:28.strongly supported our argument for a national insurance break for
:18:28. > :18:33.micro businesses taking on extra workers. But the key, Andrew, the
:18:33. > :18:36.key is this - is delivery. Because we saw a number of announcements in
:18:36. > :18:39.the Autumn Statement last year, say, for example, on infrastructure.
:18:39. > :18:43.There were 18 major road projects announced in the Autumn Statement
:18:43. > :18:47.last year. We haven't seen the diggers get going in respect of any
:18:47. > :18:49.of them. That's the thing... I put that point to the Chief Secretary,
:18:49. > :18:55.he said that's not true. Let me show you what's happened to
:18:55. > :19:00.corporation tax. Just to see if this has Lib support here -- Labour
:19:00. > :19:05.support. It was 28% when you left got and it's now down, or will be
:19:05. > :19:10.by 2014, to 21%. That cut in the tax on company's profits, that has
:19:10. > :19:13.Labour support? Yes, I think that's a good thing. I I should say many
:19:13. > :19:18.companies because of their size don't pay corporation tax.
:19:18. > :19:21.understand. Whether they would like to have a national insurance break
:19:21. > :19:24.which we have argued for against a corporation tax cut they've always
:19:24. > :19:28.said national insurance is the one that would make a real difference
:19:29. > :19:34.to them. You liked some of the measures. Yes, it would be churlish
:19:34. > :19:38.to... Let's move on to benefits. This welfare benefits by 1% a year
:19:38. > :19:43.over the next three years. Tkoeu take it from the Sunday papers, Mr
:19:43. > :19:46.Balls is writing in the Sun, Ed Miliband's people clearly briefing
:19:46. > :19:51.the Observer that you are going to vote against it? We haven't seen
:19:51. > :19:55.the bill but I think unless fundamental changes are made to the
:19:55. > :20:01.proposals that we have seen so far, I think we will struggle to support
:20:01. > :20:05.it. Two things about this, Andrew, the first is just to viewers, many
:20:05. > :20:09.people think these cuts are not going to affect them. Six out of
:20:09. > :20:13.ten households who are going to be affected by these cuts are working
:20:13. > :20:17.households. Mistakingingly, the Chancellor thought he could play
:20:17. > :20:23.political games with people's livelihoods and he could say people
:20:23. > :20:27.on benefit against the strivers, so to speak. Many people on benefits
:20:27. > :20:30.are working are striving and the thing that many people found
:20:30. > :20:36.particularly distasteful, was this notion that somehow those who are
:20:36. > :20:41.out of work are feckless. understand the distupbgs. A lot of
:20:41. > :20:46.people out of work are striving to get jobs. Let's look at those on
:20:46. > :20:50.out of work benefits, those not on benefit and working. Should those
:20:50. > :20:52.on out of work benefits be limited to a 1% rise? We haven't seen the
:20:52. > :20:57.full proposal. You don't need to see the tpwoeul answer that
:20:57. > :21:01.question. Look, we do need to see the range, the whole package of
:21:01. > :21:06.measures. Let's look at... I would be grateful if cow answer. Why
:21:06. > :21:11.should those on out of work benefits get a bigger rise than the
:21:11. > :21:14.the% rise in public sector pay? Think about the people we are
:21:14. > :21:19.talking about. Many of the people I come across in my constituency who
:21:19. > :21:22.are in this situation are often young people, graduates coming back
:21:22. > :21:28.from university, or people who have qualified from college. They are
:21:28. > :21:31.doing a constant stream of workplacements. People carry on...
:21:31. > :21:34.I understand that. So vote against the 1%. You are asking me to tell
:21:34. > :21:38.you how we are going to vote on a bill. I haven't seen the contents.
:21:38. > :21:41.We know the principles. You are asking me to make a judgment for my
:21:41. > :21:44.colleagues. The shadow cabinet has not met to determine what we will
:21:44. > :21:49.do on this bill we haven't seen yet. Those who have been on benefits
:21:49. > :21:52.have seen a 20% rise on benefits over the past five years. Average
:21:53. > :21:56.earnings have risen by 10%. Surely it's only right that those on
:21:56. > :22:00.benefits should get no more than those in work? As I said at the top
:22:00. > :22:04.of this interview, you are seeking to lump them all together. No, I am
:22:04. > :22:08.not. You said those on benefits, many on benefits are actually
:22:08. > :22:12.working, Andrew. Let's take those in work. You haven't answered the
:22:12. > :22:16.out of work benefits. Let's take those on in work benefits. Should
:22:16. > :22:21.tax credits which top up lower pay, should they be limited to 1%?
:22:21. > :22:24.need to see the package of measures but the important distinction also
:22:24. > :22:28.is whether or not, when you are doing that, you are also going to
:22:28. > :22:32.give people earning millions of pounds a year a tax cut in the
:22:32. > :22:36.order of �107,000. That's the thing. We will look at the package of
:22:36. > :22:41.measures put forward in this bill and we will make a a decision.
:22:41. > :22:46.know what's in the bill. We don't. Do you not know all the measures in
:22:46. > :22:50.the bill. We know those on out of work benefits and those in, in work
:22:50. > :22:53.benefits will be limited to 1% over the next three years. It's a simple
:22:53. > :22:58.question, do you support that or don't you? I have not seen the
:22:58. > :23:02.measures. But the test that we will apply is are these measures likely
:23:02. > :23:06.to increase child poverty, are they going to adversely impact lower
:23:06. > :23:10.income families who are in receipt of benefit and is it fair? Those
:23:10. > :23:13.are the tests that we will apply. We know the answer to all of that.
:23:13. > :23:17.1% is less than the rate of inflation. This is a real cut for
:23:17. > :23:23.people on benefits whether in work or out. Why can't you just say we
:23:23. > :23:27.will vote against it? As I have said, we haven't seen the bill yet.
:23:27. > :23:30.As the proposals have been framed so far, I think we will struggle to
:23:30. > :23:35.support this. But there is another important thing actually here,
:23:35. > :23:38.Andrew, which is will Nick Clegg be able to, - if this is all that's in
:23:38. > :23:44.the bill, will he be able to Marshall all his troops through the
:23:44. > :23:49.division lobby? Sarah Tether has already said she things changes are
:23:49. > :23:53.immoral. You want to talk about the Lib Dems. It would help us all if
:23:53. > :23:58.you talked about yourselves. Let me move on to company tax avoidance.
:23:58. > :24:01.Google, Amazon, Starbucks all the other multinationals thaerb taking
:24:01. > :24:05.-- they're taking advantage of tax arrangements that were either
:24:05. > :24:09.introduced by or approved by the last Labour Government. Why did you
:24:09. > :24:13.make it so easy for them to avoid tax? I don't agree we made it so
:24:13. > :24:16.easy for large companies to avoid tax. Let's actually look at what we
:24:16. > :24:21.achieved in Government. You are always playing catch-up with these
:24:21. > :24:25.companies because they employ some of the most highly reimmune rated
:24:25. > :24:29.lawyers and accountants. But the National Audit Office two weeks ago
:24:29. > :24:34.said that as a result of the new disclosure information measures
:24:34. > :24:38.that we implemented in Government, the revenue has has taken in over
:24:38. > :24:42.�12 billion extra as a result of that. Also, if you look you - it's
:24:42. > :24:47.not just what do you domesticically, it's what you do internationally,
:24:47. > :24:52.as well. In April 2009, at the G20, Gordon Brown managed to Marshall
:24:52. > :24:55.the other countries together to threaten to impose sanctions on tax
:24:55. > :25:00.haven jurisdictions... That's another issue. It's not. I am
:25:00. > :25:03.talking about Google, Starbucks and Amazon. The fact you are calling
:25:04. > :25:10.them on to make voluntary payments in addition to the tax, that only
:25:10. > :25:14.shows that you left behind a tax code riddled with loopholes for
:25:14. > :25:16.these companies. We are not calling on them to make voluntary
:25:17. > :25:20.contributions, we are calling on them to pay their fair share. These
:25:20. > :25:24.companies benefit from the talent that the society that they operate
:25:24. > :25:28.in brings in terms of the employees. They benefit from our custom. All
:25:28. > :25:35.we are asking them to do is to pay a fair share. You think he are --
:25:35. > :25:38.they are pay agoing -- paying a share fair? It's unfair what you
:25:38. > :25:41.see these large companies that have been mentioned do, they cloud
:25:41. > :25:44.people's view of the contribution that businesses make to the
:25:44. > :25:50.Exchequer and it's important to state many small and medium-sized
:25:50. > :25:54.businesses who will be watching this programme... They pay their
:25:55. > :25:59.whack. I understand that. We must not allow what the larger companies
:25:59. > :26:03.do to colour their perception. you boycotting Starbucks? I haven't
:26:03. > :26:12.bought a coffee from Starbucks since we heard... Are you
:26:12. > :26:17.boycotting them? I am not. Are you by cotting Amazon? -- boycottingam
:26:17. > :26:20.astkopb. Google is hard tore boycott. I would like to see,
:26:20. > :26:23.Starbucks have to rebuild trust with their customers and the public.
:26:23. > :26:27.What they've done this week is an important first step but they've
:26:27. > :26:30.still lots of questions to answer. Wye like to see Amazon and Google
:26:30. > :26:34.follow their lead in that respect. Tony Blair said that Labour can't
:26:34. > :26:38.go into the next election without the support of a single chief
:26:38. > :26:48.executive from a big company. Can you name a boss of a big major
:26:48. > :26:49.
:26:49. > :26:53.company who is backing Labour? chairman of ASOS. Is that a public
:26:53. > :26:58.company? I am not sure if it's listed. Any others? I know where
:26:58. > :27:02.you are going with this. No, I am just asking. I am putting to you
:27:02. > :27:06.the Blair test. I am not going to mess around with you, we did lose
:27:06. > :27:09.lots of support at the 2010 general election amongst business and I am
:27:09. > :27:13.determined that we win it back and that's a journey we are on. I am
:27:13. > :27:17.pleased to say that this year we held amongst the large parties
:27:17. > :27:26.probably the biggest business engagement event of the year and we
:27:26. > :27:28.have lots of people coming back to us. Thank you very much.
:27:28. > :27:31.Conservative MP for Mid- Bedfordshire, Nadine Dorries,
:27:31. > :27:34.caused a minor sensation at Westminster when the country woke
:27:34. > :27:36.up one morning to learn she was to spend the next fortnight eating
:27:36. > :27:40.spiders and being covered by cockroaches in the Australian
:27:40. > :27:43.jungle on "I'm a Celebrity." It came as a bit of a shock to Tory
:27:43. > :27:45.Party bosses, too. They say they were taken by surprise and
:27:45. > :27:48.immediately removed the Parliamentary Whip from her. Now
:27:48. > :27:52.she's back, still suspended and utterly unrepentant. I'll be
:27:52. > :28:02.speaking to her in a moment. But first, this is her case, in her own
:28:02. > :28:03.
:28:03. > :28:05.For the last seven and a half years I have represented the constituency
:28:05. > :28:10.of Mid-Bedfordshire for almost every day of my life. Being an MP
:28:10. > :28:13.isn't a job, it's more of a life choice. When the producers of I'm A
:28:13. > :28:20.Celebrity offered me the chance to go into the jungle, I saw that as
:28:20. > :28:23.an opportunity to engage with a whole new electorate that
:28:23. > :28:31.Conservative MPs like myself don't normally have an opportunity engage
:28:31. > :28:35.with. I saw this as an opportunity to
:28:35. > :28:39.change perceptions, to show people that Conservative MPs are just like
:28:39. > :28:45.everybody else, we are mums and dads and sons and daughters. When I
:28:45. > :28:51.left there was a knee-jerk reaction invoked by the media which became
:28:51. > :28:55.almost hysterical. The papers are full of scurrilous
:28:55. > :29:00.lies about myself and my family. Journalists wrote that I was away
:29:00. > :29:02.for a month, it wasn't even two weeks. Parliament was on its own
:29:02. > :29:06.half-term holiday and I missed no legislation.
:29:06. > :29:11.Knowing that I was going away, I worked throughout the year and took
:29:11. > :29:15.four days off this summer. Everyone who works has holidays, even the
:29:15. > :29:18.Prime Minister takes holidays. I just choose to do something a
:29:18. > :29:28.little bit different with mine. In seven and a half years, I have
:29:28. > :29:29.
:29:29. > :29:37.never taken a single parliamentary day away, not one.
:29:37. > :29:41.You lock better now -- you look better now. What's your name? The
:29:41. > :29:44.reality is that the reaction on the street has been overwhelmingly
:29:44. > :29:49.positive. When I went into a supermarket the other day I was
:29:49. > :29:53.cheered. That doesn't happen every day. Michael Gove told me a lovely
:29:53. > :29:57.story in the Commons the other evening. When he was visiting a
:29:57. > :30:03.school in St Helens last week, the children wanted to know from him,
:30:03. > :30:08.do you know Nadine? He told me that he said to the children, if she was
:30:08. > :30:13.your mum, would you be embarrassed or proud? And they all put their
:30:13. > :30:17.hands up and shouted proud. Children run up to me on the street
:30:17. > :30:21.with their phones and say, are you Nadine Dorries? Are you the MP?
:30:21. > :30:26.What is it like to eat a spider? Meanwhile, back in Westminster, in
:30:26. > :30:34.the corridors of power, my whip was suspended and my name was removed
:30:34. > :30:39.from the Conservative Party's website list of MPs. In 2015, a
:30:39. > :30:42.whole new generation of voters will go into the voting booth in mid-
:30:42. > :30:48.Beds, put a cross next to my name and know exactly what they're
:30:48. > :30:52.voting for. Far from being a disaster, I'm A Celebrity was a
:30:52. > :31:02.total success. Tphoeuf regrets -- I have no regrets and would do it
:31:02. > :31:03.
:31:03. > :31:06.Let me put to you what critics are saying. They are saying that a
:31:06. > :31:10.parliament which brought us Margaret Thatcher and Winston
:31:10. > :31:17.Churchill is now the parliament of Nadine Dorries and reality TV. You
:31:17. > :31:23.have undermined the reputation of the Commons. What say you?
:31:23. > :31:27.response to that is that 12 million people watched I'm A Celebrity. I
:31:27. > :31:30.think they are articulating a pompous and narrow-minded attitude
:31:30. > :31:37.that there is something about Parliament which is detached from
:31:37. > :31:41.people. I always said one of my reasons for going in was that it is
:31:41. > :31:44.pompous off people like myself and you and others to expect people to
:31:44. > :31:50.look to us to find out about politicians. We should not expect
:31:50. > :31:53.them to look at programmes like yours or Westminster. We as MPs
:31:53. > :31:57.have a responsibility to go where they are. That was the challenge.
:31:57. > :32:01.But I understand that they cut out nearly all of your political
:32:01. > :32:06.discussion. They only saw you eating disgusting things and being
:32:06. > :32:11.covered in insects. There was no politics. They cut out the politics,
:32:11. > :32:15.and there was a huge amount of discussion, I can tell you. But
:32:15. > :32:20.whereas before I went into I'm A Celebrity, people may have listened
:32:20. > :32:25.to what I want to save for about three minutes, or even three
:32:25. > :32:29.seconds, now they will listen for longer because they know who I am.
:32:29. > :32:36.They know what I stand for. When I speak about political issues, they
:32:36. > :32:40.will know who is talking about them. Is that for the greater good of the
:32:40. > :32:42.Conservative Party or for Nadine torrent -- food and Nadine Dorries?
:32:42. > :32:46.If you walked around my constituency, you would think it
:32:46. > :32:51.was for the greater good of the Conservative Party. If you listen
:32:51. > :32:56.to what other Conservative MPs are telling me about what schools are
:32:56. > :33:01.saying to them, there are not many schools in Newcastle and Leeds who
:33:02. > :33:06.know a Tory politician's name. In those areas, the Google search for
:33:06. > :33:11.my name shot up. 20 times more people searched for my name Dan
:33:11. > :33:16.Nick Clegg's or George Osborne's in those areas. So it was for the
:33:16. > :33:20.greater good of Nadine Dorries, people will say. He no, it was for
:33:20. > :33:25.the greater good of the Conservative Party. It showed that
:33:25. > :33:29.Tory politicians are not afraid to go out and engage with people on
:33:29. > :33:33.their level. We go to where those people choose to make their life
:33:33. > :33:38.choices and find out their information. What size will the
:33:38. > :33:42.Phoebe when you have to declare it? He anything I earn from the
:33:42. > :33:46.programme, I started the first of my charitable donations yesterday,
:33:46. > :33:52.will be declared on the register of members' interests. But every day,
:33:52. > :33:55.you interview male MPs who earned outside earnings and work as full-
:33:55. > :34:00.time barristers and have other interests. Have you ever asked them
:34:00. > :34:05.what they earn, or is it something you just ask women? Are no, we
:34:05. > :34:10.often ask how much they earn elsewhere. I have never heard you
:34:10. > :34:13.ask a male MP what fee he is being paid for the work he does. Maybe
:34:13. > :34:20.you have to watch our programmes more often instead of being in the
:34:20. > :34:23.jungle. Would you like the way up to be restored?
:34:23. > :34:32.Of course I would at, but that is in the jurisdiction of the Chief
:34:32. > :34:35.Whip. One of the issues he named was that I had to speak to my
:34:35. > :34:39.Conservative Association and my constituents. My association had a
:34:39. > :34:45.meeting last week and there was a hundred % vote that the whip should
:34:45. > :34:49.be returned. You Me have to come out on the streets to know what my
:34:49. > :34:55.constituents think. If another reality TV programme comes along
:34:55. > :35:00.with an offer, are you likely to do it? I think this might have been my
:35:01. > :35:06.once-in-a-lifetime. You have had enough? I don't know. I don't think
:35:06. > :35:11.I am likely to be offered another reality TV programme! To do I would
:35:11. > :35:16.not put that in the long grass. There are suggestions that if the
:35:16. > :35:23.Tory whips will not restore the whip or put on too tough conditions,
:35:23. > :35:28.you might defect to UKIP. Would you? You must be about the 20th
:35:28. > :35:34.person that has asked me that. I am looking forward to receiving the
:35:34. > :35:44.Tory whip back. I have always been a Conservative. Do you intend to
:35:44. > :35:46.
:35:46. > :35:56.fight your constituency as a Conservative at the next election?
:35:56. > :35:57.
:35:57. > :36:02.Yes. Of and you would rule out running as a UKIP candidate?
:36:02. > :36:05.Look, I am very much hoping that I will have my whip restored in the
:36:06. > :36:09.not-too-distant future and I will fight Mid Beds constituency as a
:36:09. > :36:13.Conservative MP, for no other reason than I love this
:36:13. > :36:16.constituency. I have given my life to it over the last seven and a
:36:16. > :36:22.half years, and as a result of I'm A Celebrity, every person knows who
:36:22. > :36:28.I am. Is your political career effectively over? Not at all. It
:36:28. > :36:35.might just be beginning. So what is the political ambition now for
:36:35. > :36:40.Nadine Dorries? I have always had issues that I champion, such as
:36:40. > :36:45.reducing the 24 week abortion limit to 20 weeks, euthanasia, and ageism
:36:45. > :36:49.in the BBC, funnily enough. But the important thing now is that when I
:36:49. > :36:52.talk about reducing the upper limit for abortion from 24 weeks to 20,
:36:52. > :37:01.people may listen and they will know who it is talking about it.
:37:01. > :37:05.For me, it was really about that. You are watching The Sunday
:37:05. > :37:15.Politics. Coming up in 20 minutes, I will be looking at the big ahead
:37:15. > :37:17.
:37:17. > :37:22.with our political panel. Now The Sunday Politics across the UK.
:37:22. > :37:26.Well come from us. Coming up later, it is the 60th anniversary of the
:37:26. > :37:30.great smog of London that claim double 4000 lives, but why is the
:37:30. > :37:34.mayor trying to loosen regulation in alliance with some of Europe's
:37:34. > :37:38.of the worst polluters? Joining us, Gavin Barwell,
:37:38. > :37:42.Conservative MP for Croydon Central, and Margaret Hodge, Labour MP for
:37:42. > :37:46.Barking and chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Let's linger
:37:46. > :37:55.for a moment on the Autumn Statement. Do either of you know
:37:55. > :37:59.how many people claim housing benefit in your seats? 36,000 in
:37:59. > :38:04.Croydon? Gavin, how many do you think are scroungers and how many
:38:04. > :38:09.are strivers? I do not think there are lots of people scrounging,
:38:09. > :38:12.choosing to sit at home. But we do have a problem with a welfare
:38:12. > :38:16.system that traps people on benefits, and we have to look at
:38:16. > :38:20.the balance and ensuring that people who are working hard are
:38:20. > :38:23.getting equally rewarded. In the last few years, we have seen
:38:23. > :38:29.benefits increasing by more than average salaries, which can't be
:38:29. > :38:33.fair to taxpayers. But you say you do not have money in your
:38:33. > :38:36.constituency who are claiming benefits who should not be. There
:38:36. > :38:40.are some who do that. You will see people being prosecuted for
:38:40. > :38:45.deliberate fraud. But I think more people are trapped by the
:38:45. > :38:49.complicated system. So no question about how far reaching this squeeze
:38:49. > :38:53.will affect people? It will affect people, but you have
:38:53. > :38:59.to get the balance right. There are lots more people in my constituency
:38:59. > :39:02.who work hard, and it isn't fair to ask them to pay taxes to give
:39:02. > :39:07.people who are not working a bigger increase in their standard of
:39:07. > :39:12.living. Sometimes the rhetoric has been that there are a lot of people
:39:12. > :39:15.claiming benefits. Are the scroungers with you in Barking?
:39:15. > :39:20.I may, I would like to say something about the rhetoric,
:39:20. > :39:30.because the action does not meet the rhetoric. The people who will
:39:30. > :39:30.
:39:30. > :39:39.be hit by this are not just the poor who are entirely dependent on
:39:39. > :39:45.benefits, it will be people in work. Barking residents on �20,000 a year
:39:45. > :39:52.will suddenly find... It is not a freeze, it is a squeeze, but it is
:39:52. > :40:00.still going up by a certain amount. A 1% squeeze on benefits and a 5%
:40:00. > :40:04.cut of the taxes for the richest in the country. Is that fare? Looking
:40:04. > :40:12.at the public finances, are you saying you would not have done the
:40:12. > :40:16.same thing? I would not have been unfair. By giving the which the 5%
:40:16. > :40:22.holiday, it is going from 50% to 45%, whereas benefits are going up
:40:22. > :40:26.by only 1%. But the richest people will pay a bigger share of income
:40:26. > :40:31.tax in every year of this government than they paid in any of
:40:31. > :40:34.the 13 years under Labour. We have increased the personal allowance so
:40:34. > :40:43.that someone working full-time on the minimum wage has seen their
:40:43. > :40:50.income tax bill cut in half. That is fair. Let's move on. Let me say
:40:50. > :40:54.something about the barking people. A little later. We want to look at
:40:54. > :40:58.something specific, the capital's transport system and what it might
:40:58. > :41:01.look like in a decade's time. We were given a possible idea this
:41:01. > :41:06.week, with a Transport for London business plan which puts cars and
:41:06. > :41:09.road users at its heart, but with the Chancellor confirming further
:41:09. > :41:17.economic austerity this week, some people think it is barely more than
:41:17. > :41:19.a wish list. This week, Transport for London
:41:19. > :41:24.revealed its �3.8 billion business plan for the next ten years, with
:41:24. > :41:28.an apparent strategic U-turn putting roads firmly centre-stage.
:41:28. > :41:33.The key proposals - engineering works at major road junctions to
:41:33. > :41:40.alleviate congestion and improve safety, upgrades to tunnels,
:41:40. > :41:42.bridges and flyovers including the Hammersmith flyover. The number of
:41:42. > :41:48.automated traffic lights will increase to help traffic flow and
:41:48. > :41:51.for cyclists, the mayor wants �900 million earmarked for safety
:41:51. > :41:55.measures, the extension of the Boris Bike scheme and by claims
:41:55. > :41:59.including a super corridor along the Embankment. With roads
:41:59. > :42:02.accounting for 80% of journeys in the capital, Transport for London
:42:02. > :42:07.argued that road improvement is essential. But some feel that the
:42:07. > :42:11.shift in emphasis is unfair. mayor has not laid out his stall as
:42:11. > :42:21.a mayor for public transport users. He is penalising public transport
:42:21. > :42:24.users with inflation-busting pay -- fare rises. But with the scheme
:42:24. > :42:29.dependent on receiving central government funding, does the plan
:42:29. > :42:33.amount to little more than a wish list?
:42:33. > :42:38.The Commissioner for London Transport for London, Peter Hendy,
:42:38. > :42:41.is here. Everyone has their wish- list, not least at this time of
:42:41. > :42:45.year, but were you right to breathe people this week that you could
:42:45. > :42:51.double spending on roads and that things are looking OK for the next
:42:51. > :42:59.decade? Yes, we are. My present financial settlement finished in
:42:59. > :43:04.2014-15. There is no money currently beyond that for anything.
:43:04. > :43:08.We need to set out a long-term plan which provides capital expenditure
:43:09. > :43:17.for continuing renewal of the tube system, renewal of the other
:43:17. > :43:22.railway assets and improving roads and it cycling and developing
:43:22. > :43:27.places that would not get developed if not for better transport links.
:43:27. > :43:32.London needs a medium term capital settlement to continue the good
:43:32. > :43:37.work we started. You are making no bones about it being a wish list,
:43:37. > :43:43.though. It may not happen, but you say it is needed? Are I think it
:43:43. > :43:45.will happen, because the argument but for London and the national
:43:45. > :43:51.economy, the city drives the national economy. We have 80,000
:43:51. > :43:54.people a year coming here. The population is 8.2 million. It will
:43:54. > :43:58.grow in the next ten years to a figure nobody has seen since the
:43:58. > :44:02.Second World War. If we don't have this investment, people will not
:44:02. > :44:08.get to work, school or hospitals because they will not be able to
:44:08. > :44:14.get on the transport system. from the autumn system -- Autumn
:44:14. > :44:19.Statement, you can see that funding will only go down. Interestingly,
:44:19. > :44:21.this Government and the opposition have both talked strongly about the
:44:21. > :44:27.need for transport infrastructure investment to develop the economy.
:44:27. > :44:31.So we thought it was about time, with 18 months left of our current
:44:31. > :44:36.plan, I would like to continue spending money wisely, getting good
:44:36. > :44:42.value and creating jobs for the rest of the UK. Let's push aside
:44:42. > :44:46.looking into the future. Just looking at these next two years
:44:46. > :44:50.under existing spending arrangements, you are losing 20% of
:44:50. > :44:56.the government grant to run the transport system. So we have got to
:44:56. > :45:02.work hard. We have a spending cut and the grant goes down annually.
:45:02. > :45:05.We have made a lot of economies. But how do you maintain what you
:45:05. > :45:13.are doing when the grant is coming down? There is a balance between
:45:13. > :45:20.government grant and fares. Our first assumption is that the
:45:20. > :45:26.inflation rate plus 2%. So you are admitting that the fare payer will
:45:26. > :45:34.have to fill the gap from a government grant, paying above
:45:34. > :45:38.inflation for tomorrow's Actually on both restating
:45:39. > :45:42.Government policy, which is to increase the proportion of the
:45:42. > :45:47.spending pay... What do you think about that? I think that's
:45:47. > :45:51.Government policy. Does that make you feel comfortable, though?
:45:51. > :45:56.our plan does is to make an assumption about what future mayors
:45:56. > :46:01.will do. If we do better, get more income in, he can... I am trying to
:46:01. > :46:04.look at the reality. Over the next two years you are taking 15%
:46:04. > :46:07.increase from fare rises, even though the cost of operating the
:46:07. > :46:14.tube network is remaining more or less the same. You are using that
:46:14. > :46:17.money, what for? Actually, the point is this, which is that you
:46:17. > :46:21.have to continue investment, the most important thing is to continue
:46:21. > :46:26.the investment. We can see that you are saying that, the reality how
:46:26. > :46:29.can you? On the present figures? Two ways to get the money tprrbgs
:46:29. > :46:33.Government grant or out of taxpayers. There is a third way,
:46:33. > :46:37.increase income and you can save money. The 4th way, does it not now
:46:37. > :46:41.look a folly, some call them vanity projects, create things like the
:46:41. > :46:44.cable car, bike schemes, things that don't pay their way. They
:46:44. > :46:49.might be great when times are good, but we can't afford these now and
:46:49. > :46:53.you are using the tube payer to subsidise those? It's interesting,
:46:53. > :47:01.nothing pays its way. The tube can cover operating costs but can't
:47:01. > :47:05.cover investment cost. The bus service costhoods 400 million.
:47:05. > :47:10.are you promising more on roads at this time and on bikes, why don't
:47:10. > :47:14.the bikes pay their way? 80% of London's movement is on the road
:47:14. > :47:17.network. We never consistently invested in the infrastructure.
:47:17. > :47:21.Hammersmith flyover, despite the claims of the inside out story this
:47:21. > :47:25.week, was not in a good condition. We have to put it in a good
:47:25. > :47:30.condition. We have tunnels and flyovers that need maintaining.
:47:30. > :47:33.Would you like to see another road tax, are there going to be further
:47:33. > :47:37.charges on the road user? We can see charges going up for everyone
:47:37. > :47:40.else. That's a matter for the mayor in the future. You have been a
:47:40. > :47:46.passionate advocate of public transport, are you going to feel
:47:46. > :47:49.happy seeing the concentration on roads? If you see the the mayor's
:47:49. > :47:53.transport strategy, charging is an option. This mayor said he wouldn't
:47:53. > :47:57.do it in his term, it's too late in his term. To do a bigger scheme you
:47:57. > :48:02.need a number of years. The fact remains in the meantime there is a
:48:02. > :48:05.lot you need to do with the road network because 80% of London's
:48:06. > :48:08.businesses on the roads, there is a whole issue about movement to
:48:08. > :48:13.sustain businesses, there is issues about pedestrians and cyclists
:48:13. > :48:18.which are critical. How do you teal with this financial situation to
:48:18. > :48:23.get this right, keep on putting it on the fare payers. What is unfair
:48:23. > :48:28.is you are putting it on the tube users and bus users and using that
:48:29. > :48:31.to fund prioritise roads and that feels unfair to me. Let me give you
:48:31. > :48:36.an example, in my constituency we have a proposed hospital closure
:48:36. > :48:40.and that means everybody's going to have to go to the other hospital,
:48:40. > :48:44.Queens hospital, King George Hospital it is a proposal. For
:48:44. > :48:48.people on the poorest estate it requires three bus journeys and
:48:48. > :48:51.takes at least an hour and a half to get there. Investment in the bus
:48:52. > :48:56.service would make it at least two bus evers, we have been on at you
:48:56. > :49:01.forever to get that done. You are prioritising the roads. You have a
:49:01. > :49:05.moan, as well, no tram link to Crystal Palace. Good news which I I
:49:06. > :49:09.welcome, the route to Wimbledon and extra trams that will improve
:49:09. > :49:15.capacity, it's good that's been included. There is a reference to
:49:15. > :49:20.the extension, FTL wants to work to identify the funding. The council
:49:20. > :49:24.is keen to work with you on that. Wrap up and try and give them a
:49:24. > :49:28.sense of hope. Actually, the other piece of good news that nobody has
:49:28. > :49:33.referred to is the Northern Line extension to Battersea which will
:49:33. > :49:38.open up a huge development area. Which has been funded by a loan
:49:38. > :49:40.which at the end of the day will have to be paid for - no, most of
:49:40. > :49:44.transport infrastructure is funded through Government. This is going
:49:44. > :49:49.to be funded by the London taxpayers. It's a different
:49:49. > :49:53.investment. I welcome it, I am not sure about the funding. My answer
:49:53. > :49:56.is actually my job is to keep the system going. You have to care
:49:56. > :50:01.about who funds it. I do care about who funds it but actually some of
:50:01. > :50:05.those questions are political questions, in the last mayoral
:50:05. > :50:11.election one candidate said I will put up fares by inflation a bit
:50:11. > :50:18.more, the other candidate, a large reduction and he didn't win,
:50:18. > :50:21.interestingly. I carry out the policy, I don't make it. You are
:50:21. > :50:25.purely apolitical. Unfair to ask you personal views. I will ask them
:50:25. > :50:28.later. When I have retired. 60 years ago this week, London was
:50:28. > :50:30.enveloped by the Great Smog. The situation became so desperate the
:50:30. > :50:33.government of the day pushed for ground-breaking legislation. The
:50:33. > :50:35.Clean Air Act was introduced. But six decades on, London's Mayor is
:50:35. > :50:45.actually lobbying for lighter controls on air pollution, along
:50:45. > :50:46.
:50:46. > :50:51.with some of Europe's other worst polluters. Andrew Cryan has more.
:50:51. > :50:53.The worst pollution disaster ended 60 years ago today by the time the
:50:53. > :51:01.Great Smog was over thousands had lost their lives. The Government
:51:01. > :51:04.spurred into action. The Act was introduced,. It's harder to see but
:51:04. > :51:08.London still has serious problems with its air quality. Over 4,000
:51:08. > :51:14.people die every year because of pollution in our air. But the main
:51:14. > :51:18.laws forcing to us clean it up these days come from somewhere else.
:51:18. > :51:22.Instead, they come from here, in Brussels. Air quality targets are
:51:22. > :51:26.enshrined in Europe law but London is in breach of them and could
:51:26. > :51:29.eventually find itself fined millions of pounds. The European
:51:29. > :51:35.Commissioner insists that this is for our own good. I would say at
:51:35. > :51:38.the risk of fines is a side issue. The risk really is to health. Your
:51:38. > :51:48.health, my health, and the health of anybody living in a city in the
:51:48. > :51:52.UK. So, this is not the EU being petantic about rules, it's a threat
:51:52. > :51:56.to irment and people. Things could be about to get tougher for London.
:51:56. > :51:59.The commission are reviewing air quality legislation. That means
:51:59. > :52:03.even tougher rules than the ones which London is currently not
:52:03. > :52:06.making are going to be brought in. Ahead of that, Boris Johnson has
:52:06. > :52:10.teamed up with 11 other European regions, some of the most
:52:10. > :52:13.industrialised parts of Europe, or put another way, the most polluted.
:52:13. > :52:16.Together, they'll be lobbying these corridors asking for greater
:52:16. > :52:22.flexibility in the rules. Air quality campaigners have no doubt
:52:22. > :52:26.about what that means. Flexibility means unenforcability to me.
:52:26. > :52:31.Flexibility means, time extensions, it means watering down legal
:52:31. > :52:34.standards. It means that the legal drivers, the things that have
:52:34. > :52:38.forced action on the ground in cities like London, those will
:52:38. > :52:43.simply fall away. Questions not just about the mayor's strategy,
:52:43. > :52:46.but his choice of allies. In three of the 12 regions who signed up it
:52:46. > :52:52.light's Northern League were in Government. A controversial group
:52:52. > :52:54.in Europe. Some will call them neo- fascists, I would say they've a
:52:54. > :52:58.terrible reputation, not just politically but in terms of the
:52:58. > :53:01.environment, in terms of how they treat people and day-to-day issues.
:53:01. > :53:05.And as far as the environment is concerned, people in London need to
:53:05. > :53:08.know going into alliance with them on the sraoeur splt a joke and it
:53:08. > :53:11.would be a joke if it wasn't affecting the health of Londoners.
:53:11. > :53:19.The northern League refute any allegations of fascist leanings and
:53:19. > :53:28.defend their grouping with Boris Johnson. This group aims to set
:53:28. > :53:32.rules that can be observed by our countries without shutting off all
:53:32. > :53:36.our productive activities and these issues has to be taken into
:53:36. > :53:39.consideration while setting forward rules for air quality by the
:53:40. > :53:43.European Commission. However, more than just asking for flexibilities,
:53:43. > :53:49.it appears the mayor may rather the EU had nothing to do with our air
:53:49. > :53:52.quality at all. To the single market, that's the great
:53:52. > :53:56.achievement of the European Union. We can easily scrap the social
:53:56. > :54:00.chapter, the fisheries policy, a lot... With Britain's future role
:54:00. > :54:07.in European increasingly questioned, it could be that whatever the
:54:07. > :54:12.European Commission does, London by that time is going it alone.
:54:12. > :54:15.Our last guest may have had to be apolitical, this one doesn't I'm
:54:15. > :54:19.joined by Matthew Pencharz, the Mayor's environmental adviser.. Why
:54:19. > :54:24.don't you want to try and achieve tough targets, rather than trying
:54:24. > :54:29.to achieve flexibility and loosening? Thank you for promoting
:54:29. > :54:32.me to economic advisor, I am the environment advisor. I would refute
:54:32. > :54:36.completely we are trying to loosen the rules. If you actually read the
:54:36. > :54:41.paper, it's all about how European citizens deserve clean air and what
:54:41. > :54:46.the mayor is up to, to make the air cleaner in London. Since your film
:54:46. > :54:55.didn't say so it's worth saying what he is doing, he did stringent
:54:55. > :54:59.age limits, 15 years, which some taxi drivers are upset by. The low
:54:59. > :55:06.emissions coming into a city? just the congestion charge zone,
:55:06. > :55:10.out to the boundary. And we are fitting buses as fast as possible.
:55:10. > :55:14.He is not doing nothing. What is this about then? This alliance
:55:14. > :55:24.wanting more flexibility? Are you going to be hitting your target or
:55:24. > :55:29.the EU target on nitrogen levels this year? We are not alone and...
:55:29. > :55:32.But you are not? 22 out of 27 European nations are not going to
:55:32. > :55:36.hit levels. London is the biggest city so we do have in Europe by
:55:36. > :55:39.some distance so we have a problem. But there are smaller cities in
:55:40. > :55:44.England and Scotland and Wales which also have a problem, like
:55:44. > :55:48.Bradford in Wiltshire have a problem. This is a Europe-wide
:55:48. > :55:52.issue. Do you have an issue about some of the people you find you are
:55:52. > :55:57.in alliance with, some people have issues with the Northern League.
:55:57. > :56:01.Some people might have issues with the the the Green Party in Germany.
:56:01. > :56:04.You are happy with the approach of doing that? You work with the
:56:05. > :56:07.partners you work with. You might think the mayor has a problem
:56:07. > :56:12.working with the red green alliances, but I haven't a problem
:56:12. > :56:17.with that. You work with the way the European Union works you work
:56:17. > :56:21.with people with common interest. These are 12 big regions, that has
:56:21. > :56:25.a problem with air quality, like London does, so we are seeking to
:56:25. > :56:28.address it by working together. And I don't think we are terribly
:56:28. > :56:34.concerned about what political parties happen to be in charge of a
:56:34. > :56:39.region. A new bus for London, didn't ask Peter about it, actually,
:56:39. > :56:48.the first or first assessment of its pollution, if you like, from
:56:48. > :56:52.this bus, it doesn't meet levels on particals? I believe that was an
:56:52. > :56:55.eroepbous test score and that's from a briefing... It's going to be
:56:55. > :57:02.all right, less polluting than the bus it's replacing? It's going to
:57:02. > :57:06.be the cleanest, greenest bus of its size that we have seen. OK. Are
:57:06. > :57:10.these unreal istic targets. I can't judge but I am glad the mayor is
:57:10. > :57:13.taking action. I don't like there is an attempt to water down the
:57:13. > :57:17.targets that are there. If people are dying because of air pollution,
:57:17. > :57:20.it has to be a priority. It should then inform the spending patterns
:57:20. > :57:24.of the mayor and just saying because it comes from Europe we are
:57:24. > :57:27.not going to do it is irrelevant. It's a real side-step. You are
:57:27. > :57:33.where you are, and you just try and achieve it otherwise it will be
:57:33. > :57:40.construed as if you are trying to get away without achieving targets.
:57:40. > :57:43.Boris is passionate about this. The issue is the policy levers that can
:57:43. > :57:47.enable to us achieve these targets are an set by Europe and the level
:57:47. > :57:51.they've set for vehicles for emotions hasn't been effective in
:57:51. > :57:55.bringing down the emissions. So one of the things these major cities
:57:55. > :58:00.are doing is lobbying for more effective standards at EU level.
:58:00. > :58:04.have to move on. Thank you. We will have more time next time. Thank you
:58:04. > :58:14.very much. Now it's time for a roundup of the
:58:14. > :58:16.
:58:16. > :58:20.rest of the political news in 06 Not quite silicon valley. Plans
:58:20. > :58:23.were unveiled to turn old Street into what's been dubbed tech city.
:58:23. > :58:26.The Government are putting �50 million into a technology cluster,
:58:26. > :58:31.including a makeover of the roundabout itself.
:58:31. > :58:34.New figures reveal that since 1999 one in five properties on London's
:58:34. > :58:37.most expensive streets have been sold to foreign companies,
:58:37. > :58:40.according to the land registry. Transport for London knew about the
:58:40. > :58:45.cracks that threatened the busy Hammersmith flyover for weeks
:58:45. > :58:48.before a closure last December. BBC London has revealed TfL were warned
:58:48. > :58:51.of a small risk it could collapse at any moment. West Ham were
:58:51. > :58:54.officially named as the top choice tenants for the Olympic Stadium.
:58:54. > :58:58.But the deal isn't signed yet. One of the conditions they'll have to
:58:58. > :59:02.meet is to agree to hand over a share of the profits from any
:59:02. > :59:10.future sale of the club. Down the road, bad news for a controversial
:59:10. > :59:17.mosque as Newham council turned down plans by a group to build a
:59:17. > :59:21.10,000-capacity centre which would have been the biggest in Britain.
:59:21. > :59:24.Gavin, what can we do about foreign investors coming and taking our
:59:24. > :59:29.homes? If we are going to be a global city we have to allow people
:59:29. > :59:34.to come here. We need to make sure the stamp duty regime regime makes
:59:34. > :59:40.sure people are paying the tax and need to build more homes. I agree
:59:40. > :59:43.with that, a we should stop the tax dodge. We need more housing,
:59:43. > :59:47.probably not at the upper end. That's why we should really put
:59:47. > :59:51.capital investment. It's hard to do this and they're still renting them
:59:51. > :59:55.out. It's the vehicles they're using essentially to do it that you
:59:55. > :59:58.can close off. You think there could be a way? The Chancellor's
:59:58. > :00:02.made a change in the last budget. We will have to return to that and
:00:02. > :00:12.see whether it will work. It clearly affects a lot of properties.
:00:12. > :00:19.
:00:19. > :00:22.To both of you, thank you very much. In a moment, we will look ahead to
:00:22. > :00:27.the big stories that will dominate politics next week with our
:00:27. > :00:32.political panel. First, the news at noon.
:00:32. > :00:35.Good afternoon. The president of Egypt, Mohammed Morsi, has an elder
:00:35. > :00:39.decree he issued last month which meant that judges could not contest
:00:39. > :00:46.his decisions. The decree sparked angry protests and led to
:00:46. > :00:50.accusations that Mr Morsi was behaving like a dictator.
:00:50. > :00:55.Egypt digs in for a prolonged siege after the opposition rejected
:00:55. > :01:00.President Morsi's latest concession. The army has been bolstering the
:01:00. > :01:03.defences outside the presidential palace as the protests continued.
:01:03. > :01:08.The president did make some opposition leaders yesterday, but
:01:08. > :01:14.most boycotted. After talks, the government agreed to withdraw the
:01:14. > :01:20.decree giving President Morsi sweeping new powers.
:01:21. > :01:26.TRANSLATION: It is decided that the constitutional decree issued on
:01:26. > :01:30.21st November 2012 is cancelled as of today. But the president offered
:01:30. > :01:34.no compromise on the issue of a referendum on the new constitution,
:01:34. > :01:39.which will still go ahead next Saturday. The opposition protesters
:01:39. > :01:43.are still here in Tahrir Square today. As far as they are concerned,
:01:43. > :01:47.the president has not agreed to the main demand, the postponement of a
:01:47. > :01:51.referendum on the new constitution. They can -- determined to continue
:01:51. > :01:56.their sit-in. Debate protesters were as angry as ever.
:01:56. > :01:59.TRANSLATION: Molesey's cancellation of his decree has come late in the
:01:59. > :02:04.game. It should not be the case that every time we demand something,
:02:04. > :02:08.it comes only after bloodshed. Meanwhile, supporters of the
:02:08. > :02:13.president have been protesting at the MediaCity on the outside of
:02:13. > :02:16.Cairo. They accuse the private media of being biased against the
:02:16. > :02:21.president and his movement, the Muslim Brotherhood. They are
:02:21. > :02:24.pressing the president not to make any concessions to the opposition.
:02:24. > :02:28.Demonstrations for and against the president are continuing. The
:02:28. > :02:32.situation in Egypt is increasingly tense as the vote on a new
:02:32. > :02:36.constitution is now less than a week away.
:02:36. > :02:39.So Scotland Yard has contacted police in Australia over the hoax
:02:39. > :02:43.call made by a Sydney radio station to the hospital which was treated
:02:43. > :02:47.and the Duchess of Cambridge. The nurse who answered the call, Omar
:02:47. > :02:52.Jacintha Saldanha, was later found dead and is believed to have taken
:02:52. > :02:56.her own life. An inquest into her death is due to open this week. The
:02:56. > :02:59.presenters, Mel Greig and Michael Christian, are said to be receiving
:02:59. > :03:03.counselling. Senior Conservatives have formed a
:03:03. > :03:07.group to campaign for gay marriage. Legislation to allow churches and
:03:07. > :03:10.other religious venues in England and Wales to opt into holding
:03:10. > :03:15.ceremonies is expected to be introduced in Parliament before
:03:15. > :03:19.Easter. The Prime Minister has given his backing to the proposals,
:03:19. > :03:23.despite intense opposition from within his own party.
:03:23. > :03:28.England's cricketers have won the third Test against India by seven
:03:28. > :03:34.wickets. They needed just 41 runs for victory after bowling out the
:03:34. > :03:38.home side for 247. England now lead the four match series 2-1. Captain
:03:38. > :03:47.Alastair Cook said his players had been outstanding.
:03:47. > :03:50.More news will be on BBC One at 5:35pm.
:03:51. > :03:54.Well, a huge row is brewing within the Conservative Party have a gay
:03:54. > :03:58.marriage. The Labour Party has a huge decision to make over whether
:03:58. > :04:02.or not to oppose cuts to welfare, and Nadine Dorries finds out
:04:02. > :04:12.whether she will get the party whip back again. Three meaty subjects
:04:12. > :04:13.
:04:13. > :04:18.for the week ahead. Right, welfare. Let's put up on the
:04:18. > :04:22.screen what the Observer lead with today. It is clearly the result of
:04:22. > :04:27.briefings from the Miliband camp. But we don't seem to have that.
:04:27. > :04:32.Anyway, it was preparing the ground, I would suggest, Rowenna Davis, for
:04:32. > :04:37.Mr Miliband and the Labour Party to vote against the welfare uprating
:04:37. > :04:41.of only 1%. I believe they will oppose the welfare changes. They
:04:41. > :04:46.are able to do that largely because 60% of the people who will suffer
:04:46. > :04:51.from them will already be in work. The they will have a higher
:04:51. > :04:55.personal allowance. So they will be better off. If you account for the
:04:55. > :04:59.whole thing, perhaps they will. But the other issue is that the tables
:04:59. > :05:02.are turning in relation to welfare. You cannot take this much out of
:05:03. > :05:08.the welfare budget without people who are vulnerable being hit. In
:05:08. > :05:11.the tabloids, we are increasingly seeing people who have cancer or
:05:11. > :05:16.are veterans having their benefits cut. That will not play well with
:05:16. > :05:21.the public. The traditional dichotomy between those in work
:05:21. > :05:27.being strivers and those out of work skiving will break down.
:05:27. > :05:35.Labour knows this is a wedge issue. They know it is a trap Mr Osborne
:05:36. > :05:39.has said for them, but they have so -- decided to walk into it? At yes.
:05:39. > :05:44.They also know in focus groups, when voters are asked to draw a
:05:44. > :05:49.picture to represent the Labour Party, it is invariably a family on
:05:49. > :05:53.the sofa on benefits. That image of fecklessness has stuck to the party
:05:53. > :05:58.recently. The Government is sure it is on the winning side in this.
:05:58. > :06:02.Chuka Umunna or alluded to the risk that some of the welfare cuts are
:06:02. > :06:07.on low paid people in work who are dependent on tax credits to top up
:06:07. > :06:17.their income. So on that fault line, it is not an easy division between
:06:17. > :06:19.
:06:19. > :06:22.strivers and the feckless. We can now show that Observer story. Mr
:06:22. > :06:28.Miliband is not on the record on that, but it is clear what is
:06:28. > :06:33.happening. To give him political comfort, he is aligning himself
:06:33. > :06:37.with charities which are concerned about this. Labour are in a real
:06:37. > :06:42.bind here. The welfare squeeze is very popular with the public, and
:06:42. > :06:49.the welfare cap on benefits is the most popular policy the coalition
:06:49. > :06:55.has. There should be concerns around the edges but the coalition
:06:55. > :07:00.should have, but Osborne is making a big judgement call here that in a
:07:00. > :07:04.time of austerity, people are anti- welfare and will welcome this.
:07:04. > :07:07.There is another question here about the Liberal Democrats. I was
:07:07. > :07:11.going through the coalition agreement from 2010 last night, and
:07:11. > :07:17.there is nothing there which commits them to a benefit cap or
:07:17. > :07:22.any of these cuts in benefits. But there is a commitment to end child
:07:22. > :07:28.poverty by 2020. There may be ground for Labour to work with the
:07:28. > :07:31.Liberal Democrats here. Do you think that is likely? Chuka Umunna
:07:31. > :07:36.referred to it as well, but I would have thought it is limited. It
:07:36. > :07:40.seems that Mr Miliband has taken this decision, knowing it could
:07:40. > :07:46.cost him political capital, but he either thinks it is the right
:07:46. > :07:52.decision, or he has no alternative. Or both. It is a brave decision. He
:07:52. > :07:58.knows the polls are against him and the public are not on side on this
:07:58. > :08:05.issue. But the reality of how these cuts will hit people will start to
:08:05. > :08:09.spread in the public, and Miliband will get more popularity. Let's
:08:09. > :08:13.move on to gay marriage, which is becoming a wedge issue for the
:08:13. > :08:23.Conservatives. Boris Johnson, the mayor of London, was out and about
:08:23. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:28.this morning. This was what he said it. It is obvious that the
:08:28. > :08:31.constituencies are in Parliament to do this. Nobody is calling for any
:08:31. > :08:36.change to religious practice. That is clear from what the Prime
:08:36. > :08:40.Minister has said. No religion will be under any compulsion to do
:08:40. > :08:47.anything. The Labour Party and the Liberals would vote for it. Tories
:08:47. > :08:52.would vote for it. Let's knock this on the head. Watch it through, in
:08:52. > :08:56.his inimitable style. The Prime Minister is not giving in to his
:08:56. > :09:02.backbenchers. It seems that he is organised in other backbenchers to
:09:02. > :09:06.come to his aid. Is this a serious issue for the Conservatives? It is,
:09:06. > :09:10.actually. There is no doubt that this will pass. There is a majority
:09:11. > :09:16.for it. It is a question of priorities. If you are moderately
:09:17. > :09:21.in favour of it, as I am, it seems an odd issue to make such big play-
:09:21. > :09:26.off. The danger for Cameron is in the country beyond metropolitan
:09:26. > :09:30.London, where a lot of MPs will tell you that people are resigning
:09:30. > :09:35.from constituency associations and numbers of activists are about.
:09:35. > :09:38.These are the foot soldiers Cameron needs in 2015 to knock on doors and
:09:38. > :09:44.distribute leaflets, and there is unhappiness that a Conservative led
:09:44. > :09:47.Government will push this through. Why is he making it such an issue?
:09:47. > :09:52.The phrase Conservative lead is part of the issue. It is striking
:09:52. > :09:58.how many senior Tories are privately convinced social and
:09:58. > :10:02.cultural liberals. Cameron, Osborne, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson.
:10:02. > :10:07.There is a huge gap on those issues between that oligopoly at the top
:10:07. > :10:10.of the party and below that, the parliamentary party, and below that,
:10:10. > :10:14.much of the grassroots and the Tory party base. He thinks it is a
:10:14. > :10:19.symbol that in a time of austerity, when the government does not have
:10:19. > :10:24.to do "progressive things", you can do something in expensive but
:10:24. > :10:28.symbolically potent, which is gay marriage. Are you surprised that Mr
:10:28. > :10:32.Cameron is so vehement about this? I am, because the biggest issue
:10:32. > :10:36.with the public is that we do not want to have a set of culture was
:10:36. > :10:41.happening in our Parliament at a time when people are going through
:10:41. > :10:47.so much socio-economic pain. Although you said there will be a
:10:47. > :10:51.majority in parliament, the Lords might block this. There are
:10:51. > :10:56.certainly conservative people on Twitter saying this is likely to
:10:56. > :10:59.get stuck halfway. If we get into spring and we are still talking
:10:59. > :11:04.about these issues of morality rather than the material issues
:11:04. > :11:08.people are facing on a daily basis, it will descend and people with
:11:08. > :11:14.politics and Cameron. Now the most important issue of the week, Nadine
:11:14. > :11:17.Dorries. What did you make of it? Extraordinary interview. I have to
:11:17. > :11:21.declare that I like Nadine Dorries. In an age when people have
:11:21. > :11:27.concluded that politicians are often too bland, she is certainly
:11:27. > :11:31.not that. And she speaks up for a certain kind of aspirational
:11:31. > :11:36.conservatism. She just has a small problem with the two chaps who run
:11:36. > :11:41.the Conservative Party. I disagree with everything Nadine says in
:11:41. > :11:45.terms of a politics, but I think she is hard working, passionate and
:11:45. > :11:48.committed. You are right, at a time when the biggest problem with
:11:48. > :11:53.politics is that people think they are homogeneous and not daring
:11:53. > :11:58.enough, she had the guts to go out there and do something interesting.
:11:58. > :12:03.To what purpose? I think she is genuine about this. In her heart,
:12:04. > :12:07.she believes she is benefiting the Conservative Party. And
:12:07. > :12:13.interestingly, Cameron's approach to managing her is doing more harm
:12:13. > :12:18.than good. If he had given her the whip, she would never have got a
:12:18. > :12:22.video on The Sunday Politics and an interview. You are feeding her,
:12:22. > :12:28.Andrew. But is it for the greater glory of the Conservatives or for
:12:28. > :12:31.herself? She is taken with the fact that everybody now recognises her.
:12:31. > :12:34.She is also taken by the fact that she came back in less than a month,
:12:34. > :12:41.as if that was an act of conscientiousness. She was voted
:12:41. > :12:45.out! She get the whip back? No. In terms of the dignity of the party,
:12:46. > :12:51.it was unacceptable. The story will run and run if she does not get it
:12:51. > :12:55.back, because she will go to UKIP. She could become a UKIP martyr.
:12:55. > :12:59.did not rule it out, nor did she rule out going back on to another
:12:59. > :13:04.celebrity show. Nor did she tell us how much she earned, although she
:13:04. > :13:09.made it a sexist issue. I was not sure how much that had to do it,
:13:09. > :13:13.either you tell us or you don't. She implied that a lot of male MPs
:13:13. > :13:19.are full-time barristers, which has not been the case for a generation.
:13:19. > :13:23.She lives to fight another day. That is if there today. I will be
:13:23. > :13:27.back at the coalface with all the big stories tomorrow in the Daily
:13:27. > :13:30.Politics on BBC Two at midday, and we will be back at the same time,