:00:41. > :00:44.Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:44. > :00:48.It's supposed to be the Government department getting Britain moving
:00:48. > :00:54.and growing again, but is transport policy stuck in neutral? We'll ask
:00:54. > :00:57.the Minister for trains, planes and automobiles, Patrick McLoughlin.
:00:57. > :01:00.That's the Sunday Interview. UKIP are on the up, riding a wave
:01:00. > :01:02.of Tory grassroots anger over plans for gay marriage. But is Nigel
:01:02. > :01:09.Farage's party anything more than a repository for mid-term
:01:09. > :01:12.malcontents? We'll ask him. And, are you a shirker? No. You
:01:12. > :01:16.must be a striver then! Well done! After this week's spat over
:01:16. > :01:18.benefits we debate the future of the welfare state.
:01:19. > :01:21.And after that very personal, and some might say nasty, Commons
:01:21. > :01:31.encounter we'll explore the psychology behind Dave and Ed's
:01:31. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :01:46.difficult relationship. In London, councils profit from the
:01:46. > :01:51.And with me throughout the programme, a political panel more
:01:51. > :01:54.festive than a box of mince pies with a sprig of holly on top! Our
:01:54. > :01:58.very own team of little elves, Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh and
:01:58. > :02:01.Nick Watt. I guess that makes me Santa?
:02:01. > :02:03.Now, the Sunday papers this morning continue to be dominated by the
:02:03. > :02:10.harrowing pictures and testimony emerging from Connecticut where a
:02:10. > :02:13.gunman murdered 27 people, including 20 children on Friday. As
:02:13. > :02:16.ever, in the wake of appalling tragedies like this, the debate
:02:16. > :02:20.over gun control has restarted but it usually results in little action
:02:20. > :02:30.to limit what many in America regard as the right to bear arms.
:02:30. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:38.But this time might things be different? I suggest it won't be?
:02:38. > :02:41.suspect you are right. No matter how much we want things to be done,
:02:41. > :02:46.there is this thing called Congress and public opinion which he has to
:02:46. > :02:49.get around. There is no evidence there has been an immediate
:02:49. > :02:55.transformation in those obstacles. What is hard to understand in this
:02:55. > :02:59.country, in America gun-control is a constitutional issue, not just a
:02:59. > :03:07.pragmatically one. It is hard for us to grasp because we don't have
:03:07. > :03:10.rights in the same sense. The debate is alien to us. Many people
:03:10. > :03:16.argue the second amendment is not a right to bear arms on individuals,
:03:16. > :03:21.it is to do with the militia and the revolution. But the
:03:21. > :03:25.constitution says it does mean a right to bear arms? There is a
:03:25. > :03:29.difference in the wording and the grammar. But there is a difference,
:03:30. > :03:35.the scale of this tragedy and the number of very, very young children
:03:35. > :03:41.who were killed. And in Connecticut? Not the South or the
:03:41. > :03:45.worst. Barack Obama is in control - - in favour of gun control, but has
:03:45. > :03:52.not been able to do that. He said in his emotional statement, we need
:03:52. > :04:00.to take meaningful accent. He said there are things we cannot mess
:04:00. > :04:06.with, gays, guns and guards. The vote has done very badly. If that
:04:06. > :04:13.had been held in 1992, Mitt Romney would have won. The Democrats want
:04:13. > :04:19.to tackle Gaze, guns and God. will never get it through the
:04:19. > :04:29.house? The statistics make an overwhelming case for change. You
:04:29. > :04:30.
:04:30. > :04:35.look at the facts and figures, 88 guns for every 100 Americans.
:04:35. > :04:39.were they doing these guns. The schoolteacher had guns? It shows
:04:39. > :04:45.you how ingrained guns are in American culture. This was nothing
:04:45. > :04:51.out of the Ordinaries. The fact remains, Barack Obama's hands are
:04:51. > :04:54.tied in this. It is down to state legislation.
:04:54. > :04:57.Now, there's good news in the newspapers for UKIP this morning.
:04:57. > :05:00.One poll has them running the Lib Dems close, two others have them
:05:00. > :05:03.surging ahead with a whopping 14%. That support looks like it's coming
:05:03. > :05:06.in large part from Tory voters and coincides with the party's high
:05:06. > :05:16.profile opposition to plans to allow gay couples to marry. Happy
:05:16. > :05:20.days for Nigel Farage, the party leader, who joins us. Some good
:05:20. > :05:26.news the UKIP. Gay marriage is an issue on which you have won some
:05:26. > :05:31.Tory support. Why are your pose to gay marriage? We are happy with
:05:31. > :05:37.civil partnerships. If you extend the use of the word marriage, even
:05:37. > :05:42.in the beginning if you allow it in registry offices, you allow
:05:42. > :05:45.yourself to open up to the Court of European rights. What is likely to
:05:45. > :05:49.happen is to finish up with churches and faith groups all over
:05:49. > :05:54.the country being told they have to conduct gay marriages in their
:05:54. > :05:58.place of worship. The important thing is, tolerance needs to be a
:05:58. > :06:02.two way street. And I think the churches have had a rough deal
:06:02. > :06:06.lately. You have not answer the question, why do you oppose gay
:06:06. > :06:11.marriage? We are not opposed to civil partnership. I'm asking about
:06:11. > :06:15.gay marriage? If we go for gay marriage we will force millions of
:06:15. > :06:19.people in this country, not just Anglicans and Catholics, but many
:06:19. > :06:24.of the black, evangelical churches, many people in the Muslim community
:06:24. > :06:29.will be forced into a position where they have to conduct
:06:29. > :06:34.ceremonies alien to them. It is not a liberal thing to do. You say in
:06:34. > :06:38.my village in Kent, they are against it. What reason have been
:06:38. > :06:43.given for opposing it? Conservative Party support which
:06:43. > :06:48.will suffer the most from this, was not in David Cameron's manifesto.
:06:48. > :06:53.He is pursuing, headlong, a policy which will damage and split his own
:06:53. > :06:56.party, particularly in the shires. Gay marriage is an issue where
:06:56. > :07:02.attitudes in the big metropolitan centres, compared to the suburbs
:07:02. > :07:11.are different. One of your members of the European Parliament, the UK
:07:11. > :07:15.Mark -- UKIP member likened gay marriage to incest, is there
:07:15. > :07:19.homophobia in your party? Using that word was wrong. They may not
:07:19. > :07:23.like it, but comparing it to incest? Using that word was wrong,
:07:23. > :07:30.it was a mistake. You are in alliance in the European Parliament
:07:30. > :07:35.with a number of parties who are home approve -- homophobic. Italy's
:07:35. > :07:38.Northern League, homosexuals should go to a psychiatrist to feel better.
:07:38. > :07:45.These are your allies in the European Parliament? You are
:07:45. > :07:51.talking about one spokesman in the Northern League. When you do
:07:51. > :07:55.business in Europe, particularly in Eastern Europe, if you get into bed
:07:55. > :07:59.politically and form an alliance in the Parliament with Christian
:07:59. > :08:03.groups, and in this case, strong Catholic groups, many will have
:08:03. > :08:07.views on social issues were to won't be the same as yours. In
:08:07. > :08:13.Europe, you have to deal with former Communists, deal with people
:08:13. > :08:19.you don't agree with, but it does not mean it is the view of UKIP.
:08:19. > :08:23.you laid down with dogs, don't you get fleas? Eastern Europe, you
:08:23. > :08:28.could apply the same argument to the Conservative Party, the Labour
:08:28. > :08:34.Party and the Lib Dems. Why did you send a message of support to the
:08:34. > :08:39.Polish priest whose radio station transmits anti-Semitic and
:08:39. > :08:44.homophobic material. When a gay, Polish MP was elected, he said "the
:08:44. > :08:49.sodomites are coming". You send him a statement of support. He was
:08:49. > :08:54.cracking down on press freedom in Poland. 25 people were removed from
:08:54. > :09:04.a variety of media networks crossing from left to right who are
:09:04. > :09:11.taking an anti-government positions. I stood up for free speech.
:09:11. > :09:20.regret supporting anti-Semitic and homophobic words, "the sodomites
:09:20. > :09:23.are coming". I think it is wrong. I sent a statement supporting the
:09:23. > :09:28.right of 25 different journalists from across the spectrum who the
:09:28. > :09:35.Government would try to put out of business. That it must be wrong.
:09:35. > :09:42.Nigel Farage, thanks very much. I don't want to talk about the views,
:09:42. > :09:45.but 14% of the polls, the Tories 28% in this poll. It is 42% added
:09:45. > :09:51.together, which is what David Cameron needs for an overall
:09:51. > :09:55.majority. But it is suggested it won't happen. That interview with
:09:55. > :10:00.Nigel Farage shows why he is so popular. You through all sorts of
:10:00. > :10:04.stuff with him and he brushed it off, and sounded convincing. The
:10:04. > :10:08.weakness he has got, it is a party that relies on his personality.
:10:08. > :10:14.They need some other big characters if they will continue to make
:10:14. > :10:19.progress. At 14%, I would suggest this is more than just mid-term
:10:19. > :10:24.malcontents. It is given the way David Cameron's Tories are going,
:10:24. > :10:30.it is a serious problem for the Conservative Party. They do know it
:10:30. > :10:34.to a greater extent than the Tory right things they know it. There
:10:34. > :10:39.are strategists who are aware of the threat UKIP pose. The mistake
:10:39. > :10:42.we made his assuming UKIP only win votes from people who are angry
:10:42. > :10:46.about Europe. But they win votes from people who are angry about
:10:46. > :10:50.crime, immigration, welfare dependency and other issues. It
:10:50. > :10:57.might be possible for the Government to a rope the UKIP vote
:10:57. > :11:01.by moving on issues other than Europe. If the UKIP support stays
:11:01. > :11:07.anything like where it is, Mr Cameron's chances of forming an
:11:07. > :11:14.overall majority Government at the next election, I suggest, are zero?
:11:14. > :11:18.David Cameron will say, didn't I made a terrible mistake? That would
:11:18. > :11:22.have dealt with the UKIP problem and the General Election with the
:11:22. > :11:27.click of a finger. He did not do that. There are many reasons why
:11:27. > :11:30.people support UKIP. Europe is a big issue and there are areas where
:11:30. > :11:38.the Conservative Party is moving to the centre ground. But also
:11:38. > :11:41.politics are changing. They would tend in mid-term to go for the
:11:42. > :11:46.Liberal Democrats. The protest vote cannot go there. What we are seeing
:11:46. > :11:52.is a changing flow. Are they a threat to an overall Tory majority?
:11:52. > :11:57.I am suggesting yes? Not in the sense there will be vast numbers,
:11:57. > :12:05.they will take the vote away from the Tories. That is why the Lib
:12:05. > :12:08.Dems are close to Labour. Now, you wait years for a Tory
:12:08. > :12:11.transport secretary and three come a long at once - or in a little
:12:11. > :12:14.over two years anyway. Patrick McLoughlin is the third transport
:12:14. > :12:16.secretary since the election and he holds a brief that's more
:12:16. > :12:19.controversial than it's been in a while. The Government claim the
:12:19. > :12:23.development of Britain's transport infrastructure as a crucial factor
:12:23. > :12:28.in getting the economy moving. But building new transport schemes is
:12:28. > :12:32.fraught with controversy and delay. David Cameron says the country
:12:32. > :12:36.needs to be on an economic war footing when it comes to getting
:12:36. > :12:40.results. That may be easier said than done. Businesses want more
:12:40. > :12:44.airport runways in the south-east to ease congestion. The question of
:12:44. > :12:50.where to build extra capacity has been referred to an independent
:12:50. > :12:54.Commission, which what report is fining until the next General
:12:54. > :12:59.Election in 2015. The timetable has been criticised for being too slow,
:12:59. > :13:03.even by Tory heavyweights, Michael Heseltine and Boris Johnson. Then
:13:03. > :13:08.there is the plan for a new high- speed rail network, again it has
:13:08. > :13:13.met fierce opposition. Patrick McGrath and has given his backing
:13:13. > :13:16.to the HS2 scheme. He said it is time to crack on. Only this week
:13:16. > :13:20.campaigners were in court trying to get the project blocked. On the
:13:20. > :13:24.roads there has been one piece of good news for drivers. The
:13:24. > :13:28.Chancellor's decision to scrap the three pence increase in fuel duty
:13:28. > :13:34.planned for January. What about plans to increase the speed limit
:13:34. > :13:37.on motorways to 80 mph? Some think the new Transport Secretary's
:13:37. > :13:40.predecessor said would generate economic benefits worth hundreds of
:13:40. > :13:50.millions of pounds. And, Transport Secretary, Patrick
:13:50. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :13:58.McLoughlin, joins me for the Sunday Interview. You heard me interview
:13:58. > :14:02.Nigel Farage on the issue on whether your Government supports
:14:02. > :14:07.gay marriage and it is haemorrhaging support to UKIP. Let
:14:07. > :14:17.me show what your own constituency chairman has been saying. James
:14:17. > :14:25.
:14:25. > :14:29.Hollingsworth. This was a poll done He is right, isn't he? I do not
:14:29. > :14:35.think he is. You have to make decisions in Government. You have
:14:35. > :14:38.to do so in progressive, social legislation. The voters will make
:14:38. > :14:44.their choice when the time comes. Have you spoken to him about this
:14:44. > :14:48.issue? Of course I have spoken to James about this. He said he has
:14:48. > :14:53.received a large mailbag since you signed the letter in the Sunday
:14:53. > :14:56.Telegraph about gay marriage. took a view about what is being
:14:56. > :15:02.proposed is right, the right move as far as allowing people the
:15:02. > :15:06.freedom to marry. You to vote against it? I don't think I have
:15:06. > :15:12.ever Express... As chief whip you warned Mr Cameron not to take a
:15:12. > :15:16.lead on this. I have never made it public. We have very good sources
:15:16. > :15:20.and you did warn the Prime Minister. What changed your mind?
:15:20. > :15:24.conversations with the Prime Minister are with the Prime
:15:24. > :15:30.Minister. You are not denying it? I'm not denying that discussions.
:15:30. > :15:38.This is hurting you with UKIP. It UKIP stays anywhere near there, you
:15:38. > :15:43.can have a form an overall We have not had this position
:15:43. > :15:49.before. I will start getting worried about UKIP when they start
:15:49. > :15:54.doing what the SDP did in 1981, when Shirley Williams took a 23,000
:15:54. > :16:04.Tory majority. Margaret Thatcher went on to win general elections
:16:04. > :16:08.
:16:08. > :16:18.but to stick by what you believed Wear is the Davies commissioned
:16:18. > :16:20.
:16:20. > :16:29.into runway capacity, essential to the economy, why has it taking two
:16:29. > :16:32.It is important to get a cross- party consensus. Everybody except
:16:33. > :16:37.that they Commission is made up of good, solid people who will do a
:16:37. > :16:42.good job and come up with an interim report at the end of next
:16:42. > :16:48.year and they will come together with a final report in 2015 and if
:16:48. > :16:52.we get a situation where we can get consensus, that is the way to meet
:16:52. > :16:57.aviation policy forward in the South East, and when I was lost in
:16:57. > :17:03.that department 23 years ago, we were discussing airport capacity in
:17:03. > :17:08.the South East. It is the fact that we can't get consensus. After 23
:17:08. > :17:18.years, you would think you would be in more than a rush. This is what
:17:18. > :17:33.
:17:33. > :17:36.the mayor says. Let me show you What is wrong with that? What is
:17:36. > :17:40.wrong it is asking the commission to do a proper piece of work in
:17:40. > :17:44.which parties can hopefully at the end of the day get a consensus so
:17:44. > :17:48.that it can move forward with this issue, whether it is expansion at
:17:48. > :17:53.Heathrow, Boris Island in the Thames Estuary, something in
:17:53. > :17:58.between that. That is what the Davies committee have got to look
:17:58. > :18:05.at and provide something that can provide consensus. Even how would
:18:05. > :18:13.Davies says it is politics -- how Syrian. Your party had so made up
:18:13. > :18:18.its mind, you ruled out a third runway! Mr Davies said himself,
:18:18. > :18:23.politics is dictating the timing. The coalition said they will not
:18:23. > :18:27.make the decision before the election. In our manifesto, we were
:18:27. > :18:31.committed not to build a third runway. I do not know what the
:18:31. > :18:36.commission will come forward with in this parliament... It will not
:18:36. > :18:40.come forward with anything in this parliament, that is the problem.
:18:40. > :18:45.are sticking to the manifesto. You often tell us off for not sticking
:18:45. > :18:55.to it! We are not asking you to do that. You a clearly in the process
:18:55. > :18:55.
:18:55. > :19:01.of him changing your mind. By bins, no, no. You will not promise...
:19:01. > :19:05.are going to have an inquiry into the whole situation and hopefully
:19:05. > :19:09.build consensus. A lot of the big transport issues require consensus
:19:09. > :19:15.before you can move forward and that is what I want to see on
:19:15. > :19:18.aviation policy. Just be honest, you are too scared to say yes to
:19:18. > :19:23.Heathrow and any other proposal because you think it will cost you
:19:23. > :19:29.at the next election so you kick it into the long grass. Is it not true
:19:29. > :19:36.that thanks to your decision, no party need tell us it's runway
:19:36. > :19:41.policy at the next election? What is important... Of is that true?
:19:41. > :19:46.need to get it consensus on to what aviation policy should be in the
:19:46. > :19:52.south-east. Aviation provides huge amounts of jobs and opportunities...
:19:52. > :19:56.We know that, we are asking for a decision, or we you wait until 2020
:19:56. > :20:02.to get a mandate for what you decide that the next election?
:20:02. > :20:07.will put forward after we get the report from the commission, that is
:20:07. > :20:11.how we shall proceed. The ordnance -- Autumn Statement last year
:20:11. > :20:14.included plans for numerous road building schemes and was trumpeted
:20:14. > :20:21.as part of a national infrastructure plan. How many have
:20:21. > :20:27.started? 8 on the completion. A number of others have already been
:20:27. > :20:37.designed -- 8 of very near completion. They have been built?
:20:37. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:53.None of them have actually started. They have started. Meet A14
:20:53. > :20:58.challenge hasn't started. Or v Kettering bypass. That has not
:20:58. > :21:03.started. He announced motorway schemes on the M3 and the M6. That
:21:03. > :21:12.has not started. I ask again. Which of the schemes he announced a year
:21:13. > :21:16.ago have actually started? A number of schemes. Which one? Many of the
:21:16. > :21:26.pinch point schemes will be done within the next 12 months. They
:21:26. > :21:28.
:21:29. > :21:34.have not started! You cannot safe... None of what you said was announced
:21:35. > :21:43.in the 2011 Autumn Statement. As far as our research has shown, not
:21:43. > :21:47.one of the announced projects have started. Having lost the shovel?
:21:47. > :21:53.Sometimes when you are planning approvals, they can take longer
:21:53. > :21:57.than you would like. But UN now has it as part of a national
:21:57. > :22:02.infrastructure plan. -- you announced it. The 2012 plan
:22:02. > :22:10.announced even more roadworks. When will that start? Hopefully in the
:22:10. > :22:15.next 12 months. I shall quote what the Prime Minister said. He said we
:22:15. > :22:21.on an economic war footing. We are not when it comes to roads schemes.
:22:21. > :22:26.One of the things I will be doing in the new year is launching the
:22:26. > :22:32.local authority pinch points well they will be able to force schemes
:22:32. > :22:36.that are ready to go. Let's come on to high-speed rail. One of the
:22:36. > :22:46.argument this government has given is that the West Coast Main Line is
:22:46. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:59.running out of capacity. Let me the capacity timebomb on the West
:22:59. > :23:01.
:23:01. > :23:05.Is that still government policy? Yes. So when last week did your
:23:05. > :23:09.department released figures that showed only half of the seats on
:23:09. > :23:14.long-distance trains leaving Euston occupied? This is not just about
:23:14. > :23:18.Euston. It is about are the uses of the West Coast Main Line. We have
:23:19. > :23:25.not built a new railway line north of London in this country for 100
:23:26. > :23:29.years. Of course it is few minutes ago you were
:23:29. > :23:33.complaining we are not run infrastructure planning. It takes a
:23:33. > :23:38.long time to build in this country and if it was easy to do, it will
:23:38. > :23:42.have been done a long time ago. one of the reasons you gave was
:23:42. > :23:47.that the West Coast Main Line was running out of capacity. It is
:23:47. > :23:53.dominated by long-distance trains coming out of Euston. At peak time,
:23:53. > :23:58.only 52% of the seats are taken. That is down from 54%. These are
:23:58. > :24:05.your department's figures. Figures which you suppressed for a long
:24:05. > :24:10.time. Suppressed? You did not release them in the consultation.
:24:10. > :24:13.Or all the evidence that I have got, capacity is a problem on the West
:24:13. > :24:20.Coast Main Line and we are not building this for next year, this
:24:20. > :24:25.line is for the future, this line is not just about the West Coast
:24:25. > :24:31.Main Line, it is about connecting large cities with London and beyond.
:24:31. > :24:35.But one of the main reasons was capacity. Capacity timebomb. What
:24:36. > :24:40.evidence is there that there is a capacity timebomb or the West Coast
:24:40. > :24:50.Main Line? Because of the growth we are seeing on railed... If you see
:24:50. > :24:55.the figures of rail usage, it has grown substantially under
:24:55. > :25:00.privatisation and it will continue to grow. Your predecessor Philip
:25:00. > :25:04.Hammond... There are more ex transport secretaries than any
:25:05. > :25:09.other job in government! He said increasing the motorway speed limit
:25:09. > :25:15.to 80 mph would generate economic benefits of hundreds of millions of
:25:15. > :25:19.pounds through shorter journey times. Do you agree? There his work
:25:19. > :25:23.being done at the moment by the Department on which roads this
:25:23. > :25:30.could be tried out on in a trial period, but I will not do anything
:25:30. > :25:34.that puts at risk road-safety. said we will consult later in 2012
:25:34. > :25:39.on it raising the limit to getting Britain moving and you have not
:25:39. > :25:43.done that. No. There have been a few other things on my desk over
:25:43. > :25:50.the past few weeks since I have been at the Department of Transport
:25:50. > :25:54.and I had be concentrating on those. Let's be honest, as long as you are
:25:54. > :26:02.Secretary of State for London, the speed limit is not going up. Let's
:26:02. > :26:08.wait and see. Shall I take that as ain't no? It is as close as I ever
:26:08. > :26:11.get as no from a politician! Let's wait and see! Thank you very much.
:26:11. > :26:14.Now, the debate around welfare spending took an interesting turn
:26:14. > :26:17.this week. George Osborne thinks uprating welfare benefits by only
:26:17. > :26:20.1%, in effect a real-terms cut, is both right in itself and a
:26:21. > :26:24.political trap for Labour. But Ed Miliband jumped on the fact the
:26:24. > :26:28.freeze would hit not just those who don't work but those who do, and
:26:28. > :26:32.depend on in-work benefits like tax credits. So where does all that
:26:32. > :26:38.leave the debate over welfare and its future? Adam Fleming, our very
:26:38. > :26:43.own Little Dorrit, has gone back in time to find out.
:26:43. > :26:46.What a Christmas treat. A wander through the welfare state at
:26:46. > :26:56.Dickens World in Kent, the theme park dedicated to the author who
:26:56. > :26:59.
:26:59. > :27:08.knew all about Hard Times. What brings you here? And It's the ghost
:27:08. > :27:13.of welfare past! William Beveridge, or working in University College,
:27:13. > :27:16.has produced a social document of revolutionary importance...
:27:16. > :27:20.The original idea of the welfare state was born 70 years ago with
:27:20. > :27:22.the publication of a report by Sir William Beveridge. He proposed a
:27:22. > :27:29.system of cradle-to-grave social security, funded by national
:27:29. > :27:34.insurance contributions. Since then expectations of the
:27:34. > :27:37.welfare state have become very great indeed. So much so that we
:27:37. > :27:43.spend �200 billion a year on benefits and tax credits, more than
:27:43. > :27:50.health, education and defence combined. And it doesn't all go on
:27:50. > :27:55.Tiny Tims. A good chunk of it, about half goes
:27:55. > :28:01.to pensions, the basic state pension and such. The rest of it,
:28:01. > :28:04.�100 billion goes to people or working age. The biggest amount of
:28:04. > :28:11.it goes to the disabled, lone parents and on housing benefit.
:28:11. > :28:14.Only a very small amount, about �5 billion goes to the unemployed.
:28:14. > :28:22.To some, it is too far from the Victorian ideal of the deserving
:28:22. > :28:25.poor, while others think the bill is just too big. Jobseeker's
:28:25. > :28:29.Allowance! And so recently it has been
:28:29. > :28:32.announced that the system will be a bit less generous. Income
:28:32. > :28:35.support...! The government is limiting the annual increases in
:28:35. > :28:45.those benefits to 1% a year for three years, roughly the same rate
:28:45. > :28:47.
:28:47. > :28:50.that wages have gone up. They call it a cap, Labour call it a cut.
:28:50. > :28:53.And that is because the cost of living, the cost of buying stuff,
:28:53. > :28:57.is going up by more, which means the benefit claimants' shilling is
:28:58. > :29:03.going to be worth a bit less. The government say it affects the
:29:03. > :29:07.skivers. Labour say it penalises the strivers because many of the
:29:07. > :29:17.people affected are actually working. Reforming welfare is hard,
:29:17. > :29:20.
:29:20. > :29:24.isn't it? I can make out the shape of the ghost of benefits future!
:29:24. > :29:27.Merry Christmas. The public's view of the benefits
:29:27. > :29:31.system is becoming distinctly more Scrooge-like. And we all know that
:29:31. > :29:34.we are not living in the best of times. No-one is contemplating a
:29:34. > :29:44.return to Dickensian workhouses. But what is the next chapter for
:29:44. > :29:46.
:29:46. > :29:48.the welfare state? The Merry Christmas, Mr Scrooge. Bah humbug!
:29:48. > :29:51.That was our producer! Conservative MP Chris Skidmore and
:29:52. > :30:01.the Huffington Post's Mehdi Hasan join me to go head to head on the
:30:02. > :30:10.
:30:10. > :30:15.We spend just over �200 billion a year on welfare. More than health,
:30:15. > :30:21.education, defence combined. Is it sustainable? It is if you talk
:30:21. > :30:26.about it in terms of GDP. You used a cash figure. If you look at it as
:30:26. > :30:34.a proportion of GDP, spending on welfare awning over the last decade.
:30:34. > :30:41.We spend less on a welfare as a proportion of GDP than John Major
:30:41. > :30:46.did. So this idea that Britain can no longer look after its poor, sick,
:30:46. > :30:50.elderly and unemployed when we can throw �80 million at a useless war
:30:50. > :30:55.in Afghanistan, that is unsustainable. What is your
:30:55. > :31:01.reaction? It is unsustainable. We will have an ageing population, 10
:31:01. > :31:06.million people over the age of 65. That will increase to 90 million.
:31:06. > :31:09.We have got to get to grips with the fact we are spending too much
:31:09. > :31:14.on welfare. This is not Government money, it is hard earned taxpayers'
:31:15. > :31:19.money. We have got to keep it in proportion. We have too many people
:31:19. > :31:25.on long-term benefits. It is a situation where it is between
:31:25. > :31:31.givers and take us. It is the neighbour's money that other people
:31:31. > :31:36.on benefits of spending. You talk about givers and take us, strivers
:31:36. > :31:43.and shirker. Ed Miliband raised the point in PMQs, the 1% squeeze this
:31:43. > :31:49.Government is bringing, 6% will hit a working households. Not workless
:31:49. > :31:52.households. So mock this idea of the division between a bunch of
:31:52. > :31:58.lazy, feckless people who hide behind the curtains and then all of
:31:58. > :32:08.these people who support them. Figures do not support that. Answer
:32:08. > :32:11.that. 60%, those affected by the 1% on benefits won't be Mr Osborne's
:32:11. > :32:15.famous people hiding behind the curtains, they will be the people
:32:15. > :32:20.walking past these curtains going to work? When you look at what the
:32:20. > :32:24.Government has done with the personal allowance, or raising VAT.
:32:24. > :32:29.Anyone on minimum wage, this year will be paying 50% less tax than
:32:29. > :32:34.what they were paying in 2010. benefit squeeze has doubled the
:32:35. > :32:39.impact of the personal allowance cut. That is what the resolution
:32:39. > :32:44.Foundation has found out. You take with one hand, then give back a
:32:44. > :32:50.couple of beans with the other. We are creating a net that is too high.
:32:50. > :32:54.Too high? It is bringing people into the state. Could you live on
:32:54. > :33:00.�10 a day? It will need a national minimum. Could you live on �10 a
:33:00. > :33:04.day? In that situation I would have to his. Would you cut that? It is
:33:04. > :33:11.taxpayers' money, we have a responsibility for those people...
:33:11. > :33:15.A lot of people have lost their jobs. 2.5 million people unemployed.
:33:15. > :33:22.370,000 people who have never worked. That is too high. It must
:33:22. > :33:29.come down. When this welfare-state was set up, it was never envisaged
:33:29. > :33:36.we would be spending all this on GDP. We had employment the 35 years
:33:36. > :33:39.after the Beveridge Report. It was an unemployment of 3%.
:33:39. > :33:43.employment is 8% now, two years into your Government. We have
:33:43. > :33:48.defied the forces of welfare Conservatives, who believe the
:33:48. > :33:53.price of benefits is a price worth paying. Margaret Thatcher spent
:33:53. > :33:58.more on welfare than we spend now. She did not want to. You want to
:33:58. > :34:03.come she didn't. Let's be clear, I don't want to spend more on welfare.
:34:03. > :34:07.I want to reduce welfare. The reason we have a high welfare is
:34:07. > :34:11.because of low pay, people on low incomes who need support from the
:34:11. > :34:18.state. Tackle the low wages. minimum wage is worth less in real
:34:18. > :34:25.terms than it was in 2004. Where is the money coming from? Maybe
:34:25. > :34:32.inThere is a magic money tree. there is no money in your land.
:34:32. > :34:39.deficit reduction means we have to deal with debt so urgently. Labour
:34:39. > :34:44.left �155.8 billion, the largest debt in peacetime history. If it
:34:44. > :34:48.would be useful if we could get of the party-political point, get back
:34:48. > :34:54.on to welfare reform. You want to see more means testing, why? It is
:34:54. > :34:57.unsustainable to have a universal system. When you look at an ageing
:34:57. > :35:02.population. With this ageing population, it is no longer
:35:02. > :35:08.sustainable. We cannot have universal benefits and winter fuel
:35:08. > :35:13.allowance. On the ageing population and remember a common dit -- are,
:35:13. > :35:22.of -- a comedy Francis Maude it. He had not read the small print in his
:35:22. > :35:25.own report. They have been lots of reforms to control costs. Get real.
:35:25. > :35:31.Throughout the Western world there is a Democratic problem of
:35:31. > :35:34.supporting an ageing population. Can we still afford, throughout the
:35:34. > :35:39.Western world, to support that ageing population with universal
:35:39. > :35:49.benefits, or do we need some kind of means testing? I think we can
:35:49. > :35:57.afford it. Without means testing? Means-testing puts the cost up.
:35:57. > :36:04.Without means testing it lowers the uptake of benefit uptake. It has to
:36:04. > :36:10.the first. It costs more. In the longer term it with his ageing
:36:10. > :36:15.population it it won't cost more. It is not fair, and you must agree,
:36:15. > :36:20.an MP on a final salary of �65,000 a year, should be claiming winter
:36:20. > :36:25.fuel allowance. On that basis you shouldn't get a free health care.
:36:25. > :36:31.People pay in and then get out. You want an American-style safety nets
:36:32. > :36:37.for the poor people. Services for the poor always turn out to be poor
:36:37. > :36:44.services. That is what you want. How are you going to pay for it?
:36:44. > :36:49.More taxation? You want to slap a more tax on the poorest? We spend
:36:49. > :36:53.hundreds of pounds on PFI, we about to spend billions on Trident. There
:36:53. > :36:58.is money around for those things, but none for the poor, the elderly
:36:58. > :37:04.and the disabled. For them it is unsustainable. PFI has been
:37:04. > :37:11.protected. Disability have been hit by the 1% squeeze. They are on
:37:11. > :37:14.housing benefit. Thanks very much. It's a little after 11:35am. You're
:37:14. > :37:17.watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes:
:37:17. > :37:27.I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel. Until
:37:27. > :37:36.
:37:36. > :37:39.then, the Sunday Politics across Coming up: A London's councils are
:37:39. > :37:43.profiting from selling our personal details from the electoral register
:37:43. > :37:50.to churches, banks and estate agents. What is the problem?
:37:50. > :37:56.With me for the duration we have a West London bias, and she break is
:37:56. > :38:01.for Ealing Central and Acton. Seema Malhotra is for Feltham and Heston.
:38:01. > :38:04.Welcome to you both. What are your observations on the fact the deputy
:38:04. > :38:09.mayor for policing, Stephen Greenhalgh is at the centre of
:38:09. > :38:13.claims he acted inappropriately towards a junior city hall
:38:14. > :38:20.officials. I wonder in particular, given it has emerged the concern
:38:20. > :38:25.has not wanted to pursue a formal complaint or be part of the story.
:38:25. > :38:29.Whether it is right for journalists like me to be covering it? I think
:38:29. > :38:32.it is unfortunate that what ever happened, and nobody knows what
:38:33. > :38:36.happened, except for the woman herself and presumably Stephen
:38:37. > :38:41.Greenhalgh. Although he says he does not remember the incident. I
:38:41. > :38:44.do think there has been a lot going around. It is unfortunate for the
:38:44. > :38:49.woman in question, he did not want to be identified and did not want
:38:49. > :38:52.it to go anywhere. She did not make a formal complaint. It is
:38:52. > :38:56.politicians doing a bit of stirring, and the press have been quick to
:38:56. > :39:00.jump on board. It has got to be taken seriously. Boris Johnson has
:39:00. > :39:05.to get to the bottom of it. We know there has been an increasing focus
:39:05. > :39:08.on sexual assault in the workplace. It is important we get to the
:39:08. > :39:13.bottom of that. The Jimmy Savile case, and what it has raised about
:39:13. > :39:18.sexual assaults in the workplace, even small assaults. But the issue
:39:18. > :39:21.is have somebody in great power could be affecting those much more
:39:21. > :39:24.junior staff in the workplace and what are says about their
:39:24. > :39:29.confidence, working and being treated as they should be. She did
:39:29. > :39:33.not want this to be raised. That is an interesting point, whether or
:39:33. > :39:36.not she does for her own reasons, whether it something has happened,
:39:36. > :39:40.were there is a perception and different arguments about what
:39:40. > :39:45.happened, whether that should be done independently? That is why,
:39:45. > :39:49.probably the mayor is right to get the officer to conduct a review.
:39:49. > :39:53.After Labour asked him to do so. felt, because she had been
:39:53. > :39:57.identified after she did not want to be, the allegations going around,
:39:57. > :40:01.he had to clear the air. He has called for a review, and it is the
:40:01. > :40:06.right thing to do so. It is no point going on speculating, we have
:40:06. > :40:10.to respect the process that has been set in place. The other issue
:40:10. > :40:14.that is serious, is that Stephen Greenhalgh is in church of the
:40:14. > :40:21.police come and that overseas violence against women. There's
:40:21. > :40:23.something about perception of behaviour. The latest census data
:40:23. > :40:28.has revered London's population has grown more quickly in the last few
:40:28. > :40:32.years than anyone predicted. Now standing at 8.2 million. Has it
:40:32. > :40:42.caught all tears of Government on the hop? Pressures are apparent on
:40:42. > :40:44.
:40:44. > :40:48.housing, schools and transport. # I count slowly, slowly...
:40:48. > :40:51.Much in the last decade, politicians have had a problem.
:40:51. > :40:56.Nobody was sure how many people were in London. This week's
:40:56. > :40:59.publication of the census data has confirmed what many suspected.
:40:59. > :41:04.change in London's population in the most recent decade is without
:41:04. > :41:10.precedent. Of course there was immigration in the late 40s, 50s,
:41:11. > :41:15.60s and in the 70s. But nothing on this scale. The changing face of
:41:15. > :41:19.London was anticipated, but not at the rate it happen. Now we find
:41:19. > :41:25.just 45% of Londoners consider themselves white British, concurred
:41:25. > :41:31.to 60% a decade ago. We are living longer, and immigration has pushed
:41:31. > :41:35.the population to a 0.2 million in London. 8,500 more people than we
:41:36. > :41:40.had 10 years ago. In the early days of New Labour, the official
:41:40. > :41:46.prediction was London's prediction by 2012 would be 7.5 million people.
:41:46. > :41:49.We know that figure was up by 700,000. Another way, it is a city
:41:49. > :41:54.the size of Leeds, added on to London, but nobody saw it coming.
:41:54. > :41:57.This has been the result. Portakabin is turned into
:41:57. > :42:01.classrooms due to a shortage of places. Increased demand for
:42:01. > :42:05.housing has pushed prices up. Congestion on the roads,
:42:05. > :42:10.infrastructure lagging behind. If you could not keep up in the age of
:42:10. > :42:14.plenty, where is it going to come from now money is tight? Current
:42:14. > :42:19.projections suggest the population will grow by another city the size
:42:19. > :42:24.of Leeds by 2020 and another Birmingham by 2030. We have little
:42:24. > :42:28.public money, and the only way the rapid development of London's
:42:28. > :42:34.infrastructure can continue is either if London gets more money
:42:34. > :42:38.from the UK, which is not likely. Or, if private capital can
:42:38. > :42:44.increasingly find its way to building what is now seen as public
:42:44. > :42:49.infrastructure. Key infrastructure is funded by private money. The
:42:49. > :42:52.CrossRail budget, two-thirds came from private business. Beyond is
:42:52. > :42:56.building more stuff, do we also have to look at the way you manage
:42:56. > :43:01.what we have? For example, rather than waiting for new homes to be
:43:01. > :43:06.built to lower prices, can more regulation help? There is no point
:43:06. > :43:10.in building more and more luxury units, while people in London,
:43:10. > :43:17.ordinary Londoners in doing the essential work we need across the
:43:17. > :43:21.capital, simply cannot afford to rent, let alone buy. We need to
:43:21. > :43:27.properly regulate the private rented sector, give more security
:43:27. > :43:31.to private tenants and also ensure there is a cap on rents. They are
:43:31. > :43:35.not rising astronomically. So they should be inflation-linked as they
:43:35. > :43:40.are in France and Germany. But the difficulty is this - the next
:43:40. > :43:43.answers is another nine years away. Between then and now, policy makers
:43:43. > :43:52.will find themselves making decisions on London based on a
:43:52. > :43:55.guess, rather than hard data. David Skelton has joined us. He is
:43:55. > :43:59.the director of the think tank, Policy Exchange. What has gone
:43:59. > :44:06.wrong? As the Government being caught on the hop? We have three
:44:06. > :44:09.issues. The issues that affect affordable housing. We have an
:44:09. > :44:12.emerging primary school places crisis. On something that is
:44:12. > :44:16.obvious from the census, growing up in London and the rest of the
:44:16. > :44:21.country, is obvious in so many elements. The housing crisis is
:44:21. > :44:27.stark. It will get worse if the population increases and if the
:44:27. > :44:30.governments and local authorities don't do more about it. Why has the
:44:30. > :44:38.rapidity of the population increase, why has it caught people on a
:44:38. > :44:42.worse? It is interesting question and needs to be investigating. It
:44:42. > :44:46.is how we deal with the bulging population and the housing problems.
:44:46. > :44:51.From where you sit has therefore been a failure of prediction,
:44:51. > :44:56.failure put at the door of Government? The rising rolls for
:44:56. > :44:59.school, the rising demand for housing and part of it is so the
:44:59. > :45:04.external immigration. A lot of it is domestic immigration, people
:45:04. > :45:08.coming from the rest of the country? It affects public housing
:45:08. > :45:12.and public services. It needs to be considered and looked at. But the
:45:13. > :45:17.big issue is how we deal with the crisis now, how we can build more
:45:17. > :45:21.houses and get more primary school places. Where did this go wrong?
:45:21. > :45:26.is one of those things about the speed with which our population is
:45:26. > :45:30.changing, because of the way the economy has changed. We came more
:45:30. > :45:33.international, globalisation. All these consequences were well
:45:33. > :45:37.predicted for whatever reason and central Government does have to
:45:37. > :45:40.look at how it does better forecasting. But work with local
:45:40. > :45:45.councils Anderson to them. They are at the forefront and one of the
:45:45. > :45:48.most efficient part of our public administration. We have to make
:45:48. > :45:51.sure there isn't a battle between central and local Government, but a
:45:52. > :45:58.greater partnership. In my constituency we are seeing balding
:45:58. > :46:01.classes, but Hounslow has been building affordable housing. The
:46:01. > :46:05.Government shouldn't have cut funding for housing when it did
:46:05. > :46:08.after the last General Election. I think we need a renewed focus on
:46:08. > :46:18.the supply of housing because that is going to be what will affect
:46:18. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:23.private sector renting as well as This looks like historic
:46:24. > :46:28.underfunding. Even in 2008, they were saying the population in
:46:28. > :46:35.London was bigger than the last Syrian, but they were not being
:46:35. > :46:39.funded for that, -- than the last census. This is why it is so
:46:39. > :46:47.important to be working more closely with local authorities
:46:47. > :46:52.because at the front face, they will be seeing much more than it is
:46:52. > :46:59.coming forward in the census, and funding often follows population
:46:59. > :47:03.estimates. Councils always say it, they were since 2010, I mean, we
:47:03. > :47:07.privately dismayed when Michael goes to talk up the Building
:47:07. > :47:14.Schools for the Future to make provisions for schools? -- Michael
:47:14. > :47:18.Gove ripped up? It was very expensive in terms of... It wasn't
:47:18. > :47:22.actually delivering very much and it was an expensive way to build
:47:22. > :47:27.schools. I think Michael Gove was right to look at better ways of
:47:27. > :47:30.doing that. In the Ealing we have a brand new secondary free school
:47:30. > :47:35.been bought in the north of the borough and it will take pressure
:47:35. > :47:42.off some of my constituency -- being built. We have a brand new
:47:42. > :47:45.primary school being built in the middle of active. So I think the
:47:45. > :47:53.Department for Education is getting its act together -- in the middle
:47:53. > :47:57.of Acton. The prediction of Tony Blair's government was that the
:47:57. > :48:01.number of Polish people coming to the country would be 30,000 and it
:48:01. > :48:05.is now half-a-million. Are you unhappy with the number of Polish
:48:05. > :48:10.people in the Ealing? There are some issues around some Polish
:48:10. > :48:13.people who have come and have not managed to find work and find it
:48:13. > :48:17.difficult to get housing and many of them have not got the money to
:48:17. > :48:22.go home and we do need to think about helping some Polish people to
:48:22. > :48:29.get home if they want to, but Ealing it is probably very diverse
:48:30. > :48:34.and that is one of the way Ealing's character is identified, so it...
:48:34. > :48:40.Looking forward and trying to find solutions, which your organisation
:48:40. > :48:45.does, how will we unlock housing? Several ways we can unlock housing
:48:45. > :48:49.supply quite quickly. You have some empty shops on high streets in
:48:49. > :48:54.their Rees parts of towns across London. Councils need to be quicker
:48:54. > :48:59.at changing the use of those so they can be residential -- in
:48:59. > :49:04.various parts of towns across London. Secondly, more land needs
:49:04. > :49:11.to be released. We have to consider whether we need to build on some
:49:11. > :49:17.parts of the green belt, on the fringes. If local people are happy.
:49:17. > :49:21.If local people are happy! That is a big if. We need houses where
:49:21. > :49:25.people want to live. There is a massive waiting list of social
:49:25. > :49:29.housing. We think that what councils should do if an expensive
:49:29. > :49:35.property becomes vacant, they should sell their property and we
:49:35. > :49:40.invest in more social housing. That could be the biggest... In Dagenham
:49:40. > :49:46.they are having to put so many people up in bed and breakfasts...
:49:46. > :49:51.Exactly, the waiting list is very long. Cow sorts already sell places
:49:51. > :49:56.-- councils. They need to sell them when they become vacant and that
:49:56. > :50:00.will result in the biggest social housing building programme since
:50:00. > :50:05.the 1970s. You are missing the point about the impact of
:50:05. > :50:10.government changes on the reduction in benefits and how that will
:50:10. > :50:14.affect people, people losing their jobs and their homes. These are
:50:14. > :50:21.ordinary families. We talk about those who are homeless as the
:50:21. > :50:26."other" but it is ordinary families. Hounslow has a 13,000 waiting list
:50:26. > :50:32.for social housing. Things the government did a few years ago had
:50:32. > :50:35.a dramatic impact on that. A lot of people telling you their housing
:50:35. > :50:41.benefit is being squeezed and capped but private rents have gone
:50:41. > :50:46.up 60% in ten years. It is an issue. Housing is a big problem in London
:50:46. > :50:54.where rent is high and properties are expensive but part of the issue
:50:54. > :50:58.of capping housing benefit was the cost of housing benefit components
:50:58. > :51:02.to the taxpayer, which went up and up, and the government is very
:51:02. > :51:06.mindful of the issue of fairness. People could not possibly afford to
:51:06. > :51:11.live in central London themselves and are funding through their tax
:51:11. > :51:15.others able to live there through their benefits! It is about trying
:51:15. > :51:21.to get fairness back in the system. Plus we had to deal with an
:51:21. > :51:26.unsustainable growing bill. Thank you. Since the Great Reform Act of
:51:26. > :51:32.1832, copies of the electoral register detailing who lives where
:51:32. > :51:36.has been available for sale. London's councils make money from
:51:36. > :51:39.selling details to organisations, ranging from churches to estate
:51:39. > :51:43.agents. A voter registration form, your
:51:43. > :51:47.entry to the democratic process, but did you know that unless you
:51:47. > :51:53.tip the small box preventing consent when filling in your
:51:53. > :51:57.details, your data can be sold to anybody wants to buy it? How do
:51:57. > :52:04.councils and public authorities respect people's Livesey? Are they
:52:04. > :52:08.being open or taking our data and using it in ways we never knew
:52:08. > :52:16.happened and using it to get benefit themselves without sharing
:52:16. > :52:23.that with us? We are clear that the only way people can truly have
:52:23. > :52:28.control of our data is if they know what happens. So who is buying it?
:52:28. > :52:34.A catholic assortment, ranging from mosques, churches, Bell Pottinger,
:52:34. > :52:38.Foxtons and the Halifax Building Society. In 2008, a report said
:52:38. > :52:42.this problem needed to be sorted out and nothing has happened since
:52:42. > :52:46.so hopefully by putting this data into the public domain, we can
:52:46. > :52:50.remind people that this has been put on the shelf for years,
:52:50. > :52:56.councils are dragging their feet and reform is needed. Councils in
:52:56. > :53:01.London made �400,000 last year by selling our details. In the
:53:01. > :53:05.electronic age of social networking and Google, a private company is no
:53:05. > :53:10.more and more about us but do they now know too much and is it time
:53:10. > :53:13.for a rethink? If we are joined by Simon Parker
:53:13. > :53:18.from the new Local government Network. The Electoral Commission
:53:18. > :53:23.says this should not have been allowed to happen. I am relaxed
:53:23. > :53:28.about this. Councils have been doing it for well over a century.
:53:28. > :53:33.It has been happening for ages. The information is not just going to
:53:33. > :53:38.market is, it is going to community groups and political parties. It
:53:38. > :53:42.seems to me if you are going to go into some complicated way of giving
:53:42. > :53:47.very his permissions for everything, that is very complicated and
:53:47. > :53:54.bureaucratic. There is not a ground swell of complaint. Why bother
:53:54. > :53:58.changing its? Do people want all of this on their doormat? They want to
:53:58. > :54:03.know how someone got their name and details? If they don't want it,
:54:03. > :54:09.they tick the box. It is the easy. But you know that people do not
:54:09. > :54:18.perhaps notice that box. Shouldn't they have to actively opt him?
:54:18. > :54:23.We will spend lots of money redesigning the forms and have a
:54:23. > :54:26.public campaign, it seems a lot of effort for something that could be
:54:26. > :54:31.solved with the few public information messages. You could
:54:31. > :54:35.lose because you would have to go through longer checks. One of the
:54:35. > :54:40.reasons you did not get credit was because people could not find due
:54:40. > :54:44.on the electoral register? I find it irritating, it adds to
:54:44. > :54:49.everything else when the personal data is being sent all over the
:54:49. > :54:54.place. I think an opt-in option would be a better way of doing it
:54:54. > :54:59.because I think people should be able to say, I am relaxed about you
:54:59. > :55:03.using a personal data, making some money out of it, rather than having
:55:03. > :55:09.to make the effort to opt out. I think it is one of those added
:55:09. > :55:12.things, our personal data belongs to us. Particularly in this
:55:12. > :55:17.electronic time when you can find out so much about people anyway.
:55:18. > :55:21.Sure we get worried about this? What is important is the
:55:21. > :55:25.transparency of what is happening and awareness of what is going on
:55:25. > :55:28.and the choices you have. I don't think most people understand the
:55:28. > :55:33.difference between the edited version of the register and the
:55:33. > :55:36.full version and to understand to that is given to is an important
:55:36. > :55:44.part of public information so maybe that is what needs to be revisited
:55:44. > :55:48.in the first instant. But you think, leave things as it is? I can see it
:55:48. > :55:53.there may be a case for public information. Not just about this.
:55:53. > :55:59.We give data are we all the time on Facebook and Twitter. But quite
:55:59. > :56:06.often without realising it. If I was to list in order the places
:56:06. > :56:09.that sold data, councils would be down the list. You need safeguards
:56:09. > :56:14.as well. What we do not know it is necessarily what safeguards are put
:56:14. > :56:20.in place for people to then sell on that day to again and the clarity
:56:20. > :56:25.about what the rules of the game are is really important. They it is
:56:25. > :56:30.wet and opt in option would be so much better. -- that is why an opt-
:56:30. > :56:36.in option. Now a round-up of the rest of the political news in 60
:56:36. > :56:43.seconds. His Westminster Council turning up
:56:43. > :56:47.the heat on restaurants? Once saw a rare burger taken of its menu over
:56:47. > :56:51.health and safety concerns. Some critics say it could set a
:56:51. > :56:57.precedent. A top City economist joined City
:56:57. > :57:02.Hall as the mayor's chief economic adviser. Boris Johnson welcomed his
:57:02. > :57:07.expertise but Labour said �127,000 appointment is out of touch with
:57:07. > :57:12.cash-strapped London. An independent report into the 2011
:57:12. > :57:16.Tottenham riots has made 10 recommendations, including setting
:57:16. > :57:22.up an independent body to oversee new regeneration, new housing and
:57:22. > :57:25.jobs and improve transport links. Londoners using their capital's
:57:25. > :57:31.buses can now pay for their journeys with contactless credit
:57:31. > :57:35.cards. The city's 8500 buses are leading the way we pay and the
:57:35. > :57:45.technology will be rolled out in the Tube network at the start of
:57:45. > :57:46.
:57:46. > :57:51.next year. Should the mayor be paying 127,004
:57:51. > :57:58.an economic adviser at to provide him with advice for 30 hours a
:57:58. > :58:01.week? -- �120,000, for an economic adviser. Families are losing money
:58:01. > :58:05.every year as a result of government changes and to have
:58:05. > :58:10.somebody who will be paid more than the Prime Minister to provide
:58:10. > :58:16.economic adviser, that the mayor should be able to get in other ways
:58:16. > :58:21.or at less of a cost to the public purse. He has an economic adviser
:58:21. > :58:26.who succeeded you on the London Assembly but apparently he needs to
:58:26. > :58:31.be on top of the macro-economic picture and to get research which
:58:31. > :58:35.underpins him campaigning for more from the government. It is quite a
:58:35. > :58:40.lot of money but the proof is in the pudding. We need to stretch
:58:40. > :58:46.every sinew to make sure London stays at the top of the competitive
:58:46. > :58:51.global league, and the mayor is right to be pulling out every stop,
:58:51. > :58:56.however if this guy does earn his money by giving good advice then he
:58:56. > :59:02.will have brought more prosperity... But the delay has its own economics
:59:02. > :59:06.unit? He has twice been the top forecast in the Sunday Times so he
:59:06. > :59:11.knows his stuff. If he can do a good job for London he will have
:59:11. > :59:16.earned the money and made as a bit more prosperous. But if he hasn't,
:59:16. > :59:20.he should not hang around very long because it is a very large salary.
:59:20. > :59:25.But the proof is in the pudding and we would expect the mayor to be
:59:25. > :59:31.pulling out every stop to keep London at the top of his game.
:59:31. > :59:41.is absolutely right to get the best voices contributing for London,
:59:41. > :59:41.
:59:41. > :59:45.nobody is disputing that. But the question is... Whether this was the
:59:45. > :59:49.right value for money for London and London taxpayers. That is a
:59:49. > :59:55.very big question for someone to be paid more than the Prime Minister
:59:55. > :00:00.effectively. Time will tell. one of many who earn over 100,000
:00:00. > :00:05.by the mayor as an adviser. Quite a few were under the previous mayor
:00:06. > :00:09.as well. If it leads to more for London, you think it will be worth
:00:09. > :00:19.it. If he can do something and get prosperity, he will have earned his
:00:19. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:32.keep. People try to get him on this Andrew, it is back to you.
:00:32. > :00:34.In a moment we'll look ahead to the big stories that will dominate
:00:34. > :00:44.politics next week with our political panel, but first the news
:00:44. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:06.at noon with Tim Willcox. Good afternoon. President Obama will
:01:06. > :01:10.meet the families of victims of the school massacre in Connecticut
:01:10. > :01:13.later today. Six members of staff and 20 children - all aged six or
:01:13. > :01:16.seven - were shot dead at Sandy Hook Elementary school by a gunman
:01:16. > :01:19.on Friday. A British boy is believed to be among the victims.
:01:19. > :01:22.Jon Brain reports. The body of the nurse who was found
:01:22. > :01:24.hanged after taking a prank phone call about the Duchess of Cambridge,
:01:24. > :01:27.has been taken to Mangalore in southern India. Jacintha Saldanha
:01:27. > :01:30.was found dead days after transferring the call to a
:01:30. > :01:33.colleague at the King Edward VII in central London. She will be buried
:01:33. > :01:36.in her home village tomorrow. Ballots are being counted in Egypt
:01:36. > :01:38.following the first round of voting in a referendum on a new
:01:38. > :01:40.constitution which has divided the country. Both supporters of
:01:40. > :01:43.President Morsi and the opposition claim that early indications show
:01:43. > :01:46.the vote will go their way. The official results won't be announced
:01:46. > :01:48.until after a second round of voting next weekend.
:01:48. > :01:51.It's been an unforgettable 12 months for British sport, and
:01:51. > :01:53.tonight the winner of the BBC's Sports Personality of the Year will
:01:53. > :01:57.be announced. With so many celebrated achievements to choose
:01:57. > :01:59.from that the short list had to be increased from ten to 12. The
:01:59. > :02:02.contest features 11 Olympic and Paralympic gold medallists and the
:02:02. > :02:12.golfer, Rory McIlroy. That's all the news for now, there
:02:12. > :02:14.
:02:14. > :02:18.will be more here on BBC One at Ballots are being counted in Egypt
:02:18. > :02:23.Voting in a referendum on a new constitution which has divided the
:02:23. > :02:26.country. Now, only nine days to Christmas but the political classes
:02:26. > :02:29.are not hurrying away from Westminster just yet. It's very
:02:30. > :02:33.hard to get them to go on holiday you know. There's that row over gay
:02:33. > :02:36.marriage, a big speech from Nick Clegg on the Lib Dems and the
:02:36. > :02:39.festive fracas that is PMQs to enjoy before they can all go home.
:02:39. > :02:48.All subjects for the Week Ahead. Nick Clegg has his speech coming up
:02:48. > :02:52.and they have leaked bits of it in advance. What struck me, he
:02:52. > :02:58.repositioned the Lib Dems as a centre party, not centre looked,
:02:58. > :03:02.not progressive, not to the left of Labour. The Centre Party Bulls star
:03:02. > :03:07.he attacked his own woodsmen, the dogmatic liberals and said it was
:03:07. > :03:12.time to get real, what did you make of it? Interesting message that
:03:12. > :03:16.came out in the Sunday Times, is he will attack the Tory Right for
:03:16. > :03:21.living in a fantasy world. He does that all the time? What is
:03:21. > :03:25.interesting is, he is showing the differential strategy, that he is
:03:25. > :03:30.not going to be worried about speaking out against David Cameron.
:03:30. > :03:35.You had his interview in the Sun newspaper this week, talking about
:03:35. > :03:38.how David Cameron made the wrong decision not to accept the Royal
:03:38. > :03:41.recommendation for the Home Affairs Select Committee and drugs. You
:03:41. > :03:44.will get Nick Clegg talking strongly in the New Year about how
:03:44. > :03:49.David Cameron is wrong to be talking about repatriating powers
:03:49. > :03:53.from the European Union. It goes back to the decision by David
:03:53. > :03:59.Cameron to trash Nick Clegg to allow Tory donors to depict Nick
:03:59. > :04:03.Clegg as a liar for supporting David Cameron as Prime Minister. We
:04:03. > :04:08.will see him pushing on that. are seeing Nick Clegg at the
:04:08. > :04:12.beginning of what will be a long, drawn-out fight for survival. The
:04:12. > :04:17.poll speak for themselves. The Lib Dems are not picking up any more
:04:17. > :04:23.traction. I think 2013 could be his last four year as leader of the
:04:23. > :04:29.party. I as I read it, he was prepping for a leadership challenge.
:04:29. > :04:35.He was getting his position now, and he will repeat and build on
:04:35. > :04:41.that through 2013 to try to see off a leadership challenge in 2014?
:04:41. > :04:45.the leadership challenge happens, the end of 2014, beginning of 2015,
:04:45. > :04:50.in the run up the election is the most likely period for it to happen.
:04:50. > :04:54.I interviewed bit like five years ago when he became leader. The
:04:54. > :04:58.expectation was, he would struggle to win 15% of the vote from the Lib
:04:58. > :05:03.Dems because Iraq which played so well for the Lib Dems in 2005, was
:05:03. > :05:08.fading as an issue. He ended up getting 23%, getting them into
:05:08. > :05:12.Government. And he has ended up doing some concrete things, namely
:05:12. > :05:16.the rise in the personal income tax threshold. When he does eventually
:05:16. > :05:21.lose his job, and it is likely he will before the election, he should
:05:21. > :05:26.be remembered as one of the more successful the Dem leaders.
:05:26. > :05:32.message is, he distanced himself from the Tory right, even from Mr
:05:33. > :05:37.Cameron. These are words he is saying to his own people. Saying he
:05:37. > :05:41.-- it is tough in Government, get real. We need to get used to this
:05:41. > :05:46.if we are to be regarded as a party of Government. That is what he is
:05:46. > :05:48.saying. I had an interview with him in August. He said there is no
:05:48. > :05:53.point in appealing to voters on the left, because they hate the
:05:53. > :05:58.Government and they hate us. We need to go for the centre ground,
:05:58. > :06:08.soft Tories. It was that comment that prompted Matt King low shot to
:06:08. > :06:10.
:06:10. > :06:16.go on the Today programme saying we needed leadership. Gay marriage,
:06:16. > :06:21.how much does this add? There is a sense of disillusion among the Tory
:06:22. > :06:25.faithful. We have talked about the Liberal faithful, but there is
:06:25. > :06:29.disillusion with David Cameron, he is not delivering on the economy,
:06:29. > :06:36.he is not cutting their taxes, not doing a lot of things they want.
:06:36. > :06:40.Then he adds in gay marriage! Why would you do that? It is his
:06:40. > :06:44.bloody-mindedness on this issue. I thought a few months ago, he would
:06:44. > :06:49.let this one drop. He could see politically wire that would be the
:06:49. > :06:55.wisest thing to do. Yet, he has got the bit between his teeth and he
:06:55. > :07:00.won't give up on it. I think he will pay a price for that. The Tory
:07:00. > :07:06.chairman, he used to be disillusioned and Tory voters had
:07:06. > :07:11.no where to go except to the wide, outer reaches of what most middle-
:07:11. > :07:17.class folk regarded as unacceptable. There is a place to go now, and it
:07:17. > :07:21.speaks the language? You may lose voters to UKIP, which is what you
:07:21. > :07:25.are looking to. But you may gain voters in urban constituencies.
:07:25. > :07:32.Where is the evidence for that? There is majority support for gay
:07:32. > :07:35.marriage. In nearly every city, the Tories did badly? Because they're
:07:35. > :07:40.economically away from the interests. In London, they failed
:07:40. > :07:45.to win my constituency, Hampstead and Kilburn. It is populated
:07:45. > :07:50.extensively by people who are well off. Do you think they will win
:07:50. > :07:55.that in 2015? They were double figures away from winning it last
:07:55. > :08:03.time. On an issue like gay marriage, it could be 10 Link. David Cameron
:08:03. > :08:13.is obsessed by not being the 30% Tory leader. He is 28% now.
:08:13. > :08:20.needs to be 40% if he is to get a majority. They want to complete the
:08:20. > :08:23.Now, it's the final Prime Minister's Questions of the year on
:08:23. > :08:30.Wednesday. Don't worry, they'll be back in January. But last week's
:08:30. > :08:34.encounter will be a hard act to Specifically on the Institute of
:08:34. > :08:40.Fiscal... I am surprised the shadow chancellor is shouting again. I am
:08:40. > :08:44.surprised he is shouting again this week. We learnt last week, like
:08:44. > :08:54.bullies all over the world, he can dish it out, but he cannot take it
:08:54. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:03.will stock. He never learns, he never learns. I must say, I have
:09:03. > :09:12.heard everything went the boy from the Bullingdon Club let his people
:09:12. > :09:22.on bullying. -- lectures. Absolutely extraordinary. Have you
:09:22. > :09:23.
:09:24. > :09:27.wrecked a restaurant recently? Mr Speaker, they look after their
:09:27. > :09:32.friends. The people on their Christmas card list. Meanwhile,
:09:32. > :09:40.they hit people they never meet and whose lives they will never
:09:40. > :09:43.understand. His donors put him where he is, pay him every year,
:09:43. > :09:46.and determine his policies... heated and personal stuff. And
:09:46. > :09:52.we're joined by psychotherapist, Lucy Beresford, whose been casting
:09:53. > :09:58.her trained eye over the Miliband- Cameron relationship. What do you
:09:58. > :10:03.make of it? There is quite a lot of tension. You saw some interesting
:10:03. > :10:08.body-language, not least from Ed Miliband, when he asked the
:10:08. > :10:13.question about the restaurant. Enormous smile, lots of teeth on
:10:13. > :10:18.display. But it look like he was chuffed, like it was not scripted.
:10:18. > :10:25.Like her little boy who swears in church. He is playing to his own
:10:25. > :10:29.gallery. PMQs is the theatre to their own tribes. He has found a
:10:29. > :10:34.way Sue annoyed Mr Cameron? Cameron is not comfortable in his
:10:34. > :10:38.own skin about the issue of where he went to school. It is not just
:10:38. > :10:42.about where you went to school about influences way you are.
:10:42. > :10:46.Someone else who went to Eton, Boris Johnson, it is not something
:10:46. > :10:51.David Cameron wants to be constantly reminded of. Boris
:10:51. > :10:57.Johnson does handle it better, but Mr Cameron I would suggest, he
:10:57. > :11:03.shouldn't get riled by that, he should have a pin in his hand and
:11:03. > :11:07.hit his finger with it. What you saw, he reaches out for a glass of
:11:07. > :11:13.water, almost like a comfort blanket, to remind himself, don't
:11:13. > :11:17.rise to the bait. If he had a modicum of self-doubt about himself,
:11:18. > :11:22.in some electoral terms, it might be attractive. There have been
:11:23. > :11:28.other leaders, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, who had been so
:11:28. > :11:31.egotistical inner self- belief, it has caused their downfall. But it
:11:31. > :11:36.you have a modicum of self-doubt, it can be attractive. But the
:11:36. > :11:41.trouble is, David Cameron gets wound up by it, and the Labour
:11:41. > :11:45.Party know that. What about the idea it is not just Mr Cameron who
:11:45. > :11:50.is uncomfortable, Ed Miliband has some on comfort about his
:11:50. > :11:54.background. Every time he speaks, he talks about coming from the
:11:54. > :11:58.barriers of Primrose Hill. It is projection, talking about something
:11:58. > :12:05.else and the other person, but it is a lot about yourself. What do
:12:05. > :12:11.you make of that? When Ed Miliband makes these personal comments, he
:12:11. > :12:16.does it with good humour. But David Cameron, there is a flash of
:12:16. > :12:20.nastiness. You see it time and again in the Commons. Why isn't Mr
:12:20. > :12:25.Cameron as comfortable in his skin or his background as Boris Johnson?
:12:25. > :12:30.Boris Johnson is comfortable about everything. Even if he screws up
:12:30. > :12:37.and commits an minor act of incompetence, he can brush it off.
:12:37. > :12:41.I have an unfashionable view on this, I prefer angry David Cameron.
:12:41. > :12:46.I think the Prime Minister is at his worst and most infuriating when
:12:46. > :12:51.it seems he things like is a game and his job is leisure activity. I
:12:51. > :12:57.like him been wound up like he is at PMQs. It you are a swing vote at
:12:57. > :13:00.home, it looks on Prime Ministerial. Plus the noise and the insults he
:13:00. > :13:06.picks up on the floor of the Commons that as we do not here, do
:13:06. > :13:11.get to him. You forget how ruthless and ambitious David Cameron is.
:13:11. > :13:17.When he was in the Bullingdon Club, he made sure he was not there when
:13:17. > :13:21.the restaurants were trashed. No pictures of him wearing a dinner
:13:21. > :13:25.jacket when he was in opposition. His background shouldn't matter,
:13:25. > :13:30.but it does when he is trying to say his central message is, we all
:13:30. > :13:34.in it together. He was talking in the House of Commons the other day
:13:34. > :13:39.about how we have to get away from the Bank of mum and dad. The
:13:39. > :13:46.problem is, he knows more than else benefits of the Bank of mum and dad.
:13:46. > :13:51.Not all of us did not have a bank of mum and dad. Final thought?
:13:51. > :13:58.think Ed Miliband is on to a good thing but he needs to avoid the
:13:58. > :14:02.finger-wagging. He shouldn't do that. David Cameron needs to learn
:14:02. > :14:04.to beat a bit more... Relaxed in himself. Thanks very much.
:14:04. > :14:14.Well, if you thought Cameron Miliband was bad tempered, take a
:14:14. > :14:46.
:14:46. > :14:50.look at this in Ukraine's It is a bit like that at the Sunday
:14:50. > :14:55.Politics Christmas party, except more violent! I want some
:14:55. > :15:00.predictions and you will be held to account! I don't want equivocation
:15:00. > :15:07.and dreadful, I want proper answers. Will the coalition still be here
:15:07. > :15:15.one year from now? Yes. Definitely. Definitely. Will we know the date
:15:15. > :15:20.of the European referendum in one year? No. Yes. No. How much growth
:15:21. > :15:30.will there be next year? Less than 1%. Father Christmas is more
:15:31. > :15:34.
:15:34. > :15:38.qualified to say that! 1%. 0.4%. Sorry. I am with you, under 1%.
:15:38. > :15:46.Will Ed Balls be shadow chancellor this time next year? Definitely.
:15:46. > :15:51.Yes. The definitely, definitely. The world David Miliband be back in
:15:51. > :15:58.frontline politics next year? -- will David Miliband. Not on the
:15:58. > :16:06.front bench. No. No. I agree. Will Vince Cable still be in the Cabinet
:16:06. > :16:12.in 12 months? Yes. Yes. Yes. I say yes, too. It is a better position
:16:12. > :16:18.from which to launch a leadership challenge in 2014. Precisely.
:16:18. > :16:23.Perhaps that is another prediction, particularly if the Lib Dems come
:16:23. > :16:31.fifth in the elections. This time next year, will UKIP still be third
:16:31. > :16:36.in the opinion polls? Borderline. Yes. Third, on the way to first in
:16:36. > :16:41.the European parliamentary elections. They will be five months
:16:41. > :16:46.away then. By the end of 2013, we will be looking at the European
:16:46. > :16:53.elections. Which will shape so much. Anything that will surprise us next
:16:53. > :16:58.year? I think UKIP will get its first MP in the form of a Nadine
:16:59. > :17:06.Dorries. You think she will defect? Yes. Last week she denied she would
:17:06. > :17:13.defect. Didn't Bob Spink call him... He is such a smart alec? They will
:17:13. > :17:20.not get another elected MP. They don't need to win seats. The Social
:17:20. > :17:27.Democrats won seats. UKIP simply need to take votes away from the
:17:27. > :17:31.Tories at the time that Lib Dems are defecting to Labour. A number
:17:31. > :17:37.of Tory-Labour marginal seats, that is a disaster. Because if that
:17:37. > :17:44.tends the Tories to go to the right, we all know what happens. A you
:17:44. > :17:49.mean like Mrs Thatcher in 1983 and 1987? Mrs Thatcher, a right-wing?
:17:49. > :17:54.She won on the centre ground! Centre ground of its time.
:17:54. > :17:59.Thatcher. It was when she moved to the right on the poll tax and
:17:59. > :18:05.Europe that she went, the party got rid of her. When she campaigned on
:18:05. > :18:11.the centre ground in 79, 83 and 87, she won. And she had divided
:18:11. > :18:17.opponents. This is getting a bit too highbrow. I want to stick to
:18:17. > :18:22.Nadine Dorries. I think she will defect. We have had our predictions.
:18:22. > :18:28.You can hold us to a count in the months ahead! -- account.
:18:28. > :18:32.That's all for this week and indeed this year. But don't worry, we'll
:18:32. > :18:35.be back at the same time on Sunday 13th of January 2013 when we'll be
:18:35. > :18:39.joined by a jolly round man with a resonant laugh. No. Not Santa -
:18:39. > :18:42.he'll be long gone. Eric Pickles! Until then, a very Merry Christmas