20/01/2013

:00:37. > :00:40.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:40. > :00:45.The worst hostage crisis in British history has ended with terrible

:00:45. > :00:48.loss of life in the Algerian desert. What happens now as the desert

:00:48. > :00:53.wastes of North Africa become the new front in the war against

:00:53. > :00:56.Islamist terrorism? That's today's top story.

:00:56. > :01:01.David Cameron's big speech on Europe got delayed, but all the

:01:01. > :01:03.papers say it's soon and full of red meat for the Eurosceptics.

:01:03. > :01:07.Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander joins us for the Sunday

:01:07. > :01:11.Interview. And the Tories prepare to take on

:01:11. > :01:21.the teachers in a row over performance related pay. Will it

:01:21. > :01:21.

:01:21. > :01:31.improve standards in our schools? The two sides go head to head.

:01:31. > :01:34.

:01:34. > :01:37.Another tough budget for councils And tweeting like crazy - the

:01:37. > :01:42.political team with more horsepower than a burger from Tesco - Nick

:01:42. > :01:45.Watt, Janan Ganesh and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:45. > :01:50.Exactly what has been happening in Algeria has been unclear from the

:01:50. > :01:53.start, but some more facts are emerging and the news is not good.

:01:53. > :01:54.This morning, the Prime Minister said that at least six British

:01:55. > :02:01.nationals are either dead or nationals are either dead or

:02:01. > :02:03.missing after the hostage crisis reached a bloody climax. Yesterday,

:02:03. > :02:07.Algerian special forces mounted a final assault on the last Islamist

:02:07. > :02:10.militants holding out at the remote BP gas plant. All 32 terrorists

:02:10. > :02:20.have been killed, according to the Algerians, but 23 hostages are also

:02:20. > :02:21.

:02:21. > :02:25.dead. This is what Mr Cameron had to say from Chequers this morning.

:02:26. > :02:30.It is now clear that this appalling terrorist incident in Algeria is

:02:30. > :02:37.now over. Tragically, we now know that three British nationals have

:02:37. > :02:41.been killed and a further three are believed to be dead. And also, a

:02:41. > :02:46.further British resident is also believed to be dead. I know the

:02:46. > :02:49.whole country will want to join with me in sending sympathy and

:02:49. > :02:54.condolences to families who have undergone an absolutely dreadful

:02:54. > :03:01.ordeal and now face life without these very precious loved ones. The

:03:02. > :03:05.priority now must be to get everybody home from Algeria. Quiet-

:03:05. > :03:09.spoken this morning to our ambassador in Algeria's and this

:03:09. > :03:14.morning will be going to the south of the country to help co-ordinate

:03:14. > :03:19.that absolutely vital activity. Of course people will ask questions

:03:19. > :03:23.about the Algerian response to these events, but I would just say

:03:23. > :03:26.that the responsibility for these deaths lies squarely with the

:03:27. > :03:30.terrorists who launched this vicious and cowardly attack. I

:03:30. > :03:34.would also say that when you are dealing with a terrorist incident

:03:34. > :03:41.on this scale, with up to 30 terrorists, it is extremely

:03:41. > :03:48.difficult to respond and get this right in every respect.

:03:48. > :03:51.The Prime Minister. It has been remarkable how much the British

:03:51. > :03:57.Government has been little more than a mere observer as these

:03:57. > :04:02.events unfold. Yes. Cameron this morning looks absolutely exhausted,

:04:02. > :04:06.doesn't he? It is a measure of how much pressure he has been under. I

:04:06. > :04:11.was dealing with Number Ten and the Foreign Office yesterday and I was

:04:11. > :04:16.struck by how out of the look they seemed to feel. I asked them, is

:04:16. > :04:20.there a feeling that the response of the Algerians on Saturday has

:04:20. > :04:28.been heavy-handed? The answer it was we just don't know what they

:04:28. > :04:32.are doing. There was a real communication issue. Now that we

:04:32. > :04:36.know the other European powers have the technology to find out what is

:04:36. > :04:41.going on. We don't seem to have placed any satellites over what is

:04:42. > :04:46.going on. We seem to be in the dark. Unlike the Americans, which raises

:04:46. > :04:49.the question on whether austerity's impact on defence will be

:04:49. > :04:54.problematic. The Government is talking about a commitment in North

:04:54. > :04:58.Africa which will last decades. This government is turning out to

:04:58. > :05:02.be a lot more internationally active than I expected and David

:05:02. > :05:08.Cameron ever wanted. In opposition he gave no real interest in foreign

:05:08. > :05:11.policy beyond Europe. He still hasn't given a speech along the

:05:11. > :05:18.lines of Tony Blair's Chicago speech over foreign policy, but

:05:18. > :05:22.we've had intervention in Libya, Mali, Syria, with Europe on top of

:05:22. > :05:28.that. He's turning out to be far more globally engaged than anybody

:05:28. > :05:31.would have seen two or three years ago. It is unclear exactly what we

:05:31. > :05:38.could do or what we would have been able to do in terms of military

:05:38. > :05:42.power. Exactly. When this first broke, on Thursday Downing Street

:05:42. > :05:46.was very keen to make clear that they were not being kept informed,

:05:46. > :05:51.that any of the events on the ground were the responsibility of

:05:51. > :05:55.the Algerian government. William Hague -- William Hague this morning

:05:55. > :06:00.did not want to criticise the Algerian government and it is

:06:00. > :06:05.important to consider the context. The Algerian government in the

:06:05. > :06:10.1990s for to a brutal civil war against similar forces and they are

:06:10. > :06:14.going to take no prisoners. Liam has a very interesting piece in the

:06:14. > :06:19.Mail on Sunday where he is saying the world has changed as a result

:06:19. > :06:23.of the Arab Spring and one thing we must not forget is in some cases

:06:23. > :06:27.these groups feel emboldened and a country like Algeria where the

:06:27. > :06:33.Government hasn't changed is going to be very, very nervous about that

:06:33. > :06:39.threat, which explains why they respond in the way they did. Let's

:06:39. > :06:44.speak to Liam Fox. The article nick prefers to, you write that unless

:06:44. > :06:49.we confront incipient terrorist activity before it can gain a

:06:49. > :06:53.critical mass, we will have failed. Should we have intervened in Mali

:06:53. > :06:59.earlier? We have to look at the wider picture. There's been such a

:06:59. > :07:03.concentration of effort on what is happening in Afghanistan, Pakistan

:07:03. > :07:08.and the Yemen that we've seen a number of factors forcing al-Qaeda

:07:08. > :07:14.into a ungoverned spaces like the Sahara. We had the combined effects

:07:14. > :07:19.of the Arab Spring, a balding some of the -- M Golden Ring some of the

:07:19. > :07:24.more hardline groups. We had a lot of weaponry going down into that

:07:24. > :07:28.area from Libya and we've had the squeezing of al-Qaeda as a result

:07:28. > :07:34.of activity in Afghanistan and Pakistan and they've been displaced.

:07:34. > :07:39.I read in the Sunday Times that this is a 100 years' War. This is a

:07:39. > :07:43.perpetual state we have always been in against forces of terror. They

:07:43. > :07:47.turn into whatever the political shape is required at the time and

:07:47. > :07:51.whatever technology allows them to have. You are sounding wise after

:07:51. > :07:57.the event. Your strategic at Defence Review, which she carried

:07:57. > :08:02.out as Defence Secretary, fails to mention Algeria, Mali or the Sahara.

:08:02. > :08:06.The Defence Review didn't look at all of those things. That was in

:08:06. > :08:12.the risk review that we looked at. You ignore these areas. These are

:08:12. > :08:17.vital areas, you are now telling us, but your Defence Review ignore them.

:08:17. > :08:21.The British Defence Review can't look at the entire world. You just

:08:21. > :08:26.told us that unless we confront incipient terrorist activity before

:08:26. > :08:31.it can gain a critical mass, we will have failed. In 2010 you did

:08:31. > :08:39.not confront it. What I mean by we is not just the UK. This is an

:08:39. > :08:42.important point. The era when governments could choose to stand

:08:42. > :08:47.back and say that is not a part of the world that we collectively are

:08:47. > :08:52.going to be involved in is over. We live in a very interconnected

:08:52. > :08:55.global economy, our interests, whether we like it or not, will be

:08:55. > :08:59.threatened in many more parts of the globe than before. If we have

:08:59. > :09:04.to find new ways of co-operating in terms of intelligence and military

:09:04. > :09:10.hardware. We will have to find ways of co-operating with allies. If it

:09:10. > :09:13.is for the Americans to put drones over these areas so that we can

:09:13. > :09:18.collectively get better information on how to act, that is how we will

:09:18. > :09:23.have to do it. We have to find new ways of co-operating better. Europe.

:09:23. > :09:28.What are the minimum powers David Cameron would have to repatriate to

:09:28. > :09:32.London for you to advocate staying in the EU? You have to ask the

:09:32. > :09:36.European partners what they are willing to give us and ask what

:09:36. > :09:43.sort of relationship we want to have. A number of my colleagues

:09:43. > :09:47.have set out these are the 130 that we must get back. We have to be

:09:47. > :09:52.much more fundamental. This is the type of relationship we want to

:09:52. > :09:57.have with Europe, not quibble about which little bits we want back. I

:09:57. > :10:04.think the British want an economic relationship, they want to be

:10:04. > :10:08.trading with European partners and not a range of powers that have

:10:08. > :10:15.increasingly interfered... You want a lot of powers brought back.

:10:15. > :10:19.want us to return to a common market. Civil, judicial, criminal

:10:19. > :10:25.matters, for working-time directive. I would like to see us with a basic

:10:25. > :10:29.economic relationship. Her that it? Yes, at the people in Britain voted

:10:29. > :10:33.in 1975 for the Common Market. say the prospect of being outside

:10:34. > :10:40.the EU holds no terrors for you. Does it hold no terrors for David

:10:40. > :10:44.Cameron? For myself, my preference would be to have renegotiated

:10:44. > :10:50.relationship. Our I know your preference, I'm asking about David

:10:50. > :10:53.Cameron. Her I don't think it holds terrors. For most British

:10:53. > :10:58.politicians on the right of the political spectrum, we would prefer

:10:58. > :11:03.to have the ideal solution of being able to have that type of

:11:03. > :11:08.renegotiated relationship from inside. If we were put into a

:11:08. > :11:13.position where the British people didn't like any renegotiated

:11:13. > :11:16.solution, at a lot of countries exist outside the EU, it would

:11:16. > :11:21.undoubtedly have some difficulties, but I don't think they could not be

:11:21. > :11:25.overcome. If Mr Cameron succeeds in repatriating substantial powers

:11:26. > :11:30.from Brussels and put that the British people bin and a referendum,

:11:30. > :11:34.he shouldn't it be made explicit that if you vote against this

:11:34. > :11:39.referendum, it is a vote to leave the EU. And in out referendum has

:11:39. > :11:44.to mean that. If you vote for whatever the Government is

:11:44. > :11:49.putting... But on a semi-detached business. Her a No vote would be to

:11:49. > :11:53.live -- leave. We have to give that clarity in policy. For British

:11:53. > :11:59.people think that is what in-and- out referendum means. If you want

:11:59. > :12:04.the status quo, how do you vote? increasingly, if you want to have

:12:04. > :12:10.the status quo, vote Liberal Democrat. The this is a referendum.

:12:11. > :12:14.The Government would say if we won a general election mandate in 2015

:12:14. > :12:19.to renegotiate, this is the renegotiation we put forward this

:12:19. > :12:27.is what the Government is offering you to choose between. Suppose Mr

:12:27. > :12:31.Cameron Sharp -- Mr Cameron is unable to do a repatriation deal.

:12:31. > :12:35.If that was to happen, should there be a simple in out referendum?

:12:35. > :12:38.would be something that any government of that time would

:12:38. > :12:42.consider. There has to be any knout referendum because otherwise we're

:12:42. > :12:49.going to have award politics off constantly undermined by this

:12:49. > :12:55.debate. It is important that we settle the European argument.

:12:55. > :12:59.don't come as a country, get immediate repatriation package, and

:12:59. > :13:06.roughly the status quo is all that is on offer, would you prefer to

:13:06. > :13:11.leave? If the choice was between going and the current direction,

:13:11. > :13:14.which is towards ever-closer union, and ultimately a greater and

:13:14. > :13:20.greater loss of British sovereignty, my personal preference would be to

:13:20. > :13:24.leave. I don't want to have ever closer union, I don't want to be

:13:24. > :13:28.European first and British second. Is it not possible that Mr Cameron

:13:28. > :13:31.could bring back a repatriation package which you would deem to be

:13:31. > :13:37.inadequate and you would therefore be on opposite sides of a

:13:37. > :13:44.referendum? Fat is a lot of IFS! Can your other one talking about

:13:44. > :13:47.2018. We will see what we are able to achieve. We should not going to

:13:48. > :13:51.a renegotiation believing they hold all the cards. I read all the time

:13:51. > :13:55.that we will not be able to get this cup or they won't allow it. I

:13:55. > :14:00.don't believe the balance of influence his or on their side.

:14:00. > :14:03.we have to threaten to leave the EU to get what we want? It is very

:14:03. > :14:07.clear to most of our European partners that they understand

:14:08. > :14:12.there's a mood afoot in British politics, especially in the British

:14:12. > :14:16.public, but they want a genuine voice of being in or out. Most part

:14:16. > :14:23.as understand there's a mood in Britain in that direction. I don't

:14:23. > :14:25.think we have to explain it. Is it true, as we've been told, Thet you

:14:25. > :14:30.what -- you worked extensively briefed by Downing Street in

:14:30. > :14:33.advance of the speech? Your Conservative Home speech

:14:33. > :14:37.specifically set a bar that Mr Cameron could jump over and you are

:14:37. > :14:45.lined up to endorse the speech? That sounds like wishful thinking.

:14:45. > :14:48.I wrote my piece before I had any discussions about the speech. I

:14:48. > :14:54.don't think anything I wrote was inconsistent with anything I said

:14:54. > :14:59.before. A you satisfied with the speech? That would be going a touch

:15:00. > :15:04.too far in terms of confidentiality. A I'm not asking you what is in it!

:15:04. > :15:08.I was I broadly satisfied? Yes. I am broadly satisfied with what I

:15:08. > :15:12.saw the Prime Minister was intending to say. If that is the

:15:12. > :15:16.speech that is finally delivered, a great many of us will think it is a

:15:16. > :15:19.speech we've been waiting a long time for. Are you been groomed to

:15:19. > :15:24.return to the Cabinet? I don't think grooming is an acceptable

:15:24. > :15:28.form of behaviour at all. A you know what I mean. I don't know,

:15:28. > :15:33.those decisions are for the of Prime Minister. Friends say you're

:15:33. > :15:37.anxious to return. I wouldn't say that was true. I have a lot of

:15:37. > :15:44.things I'm doing. You would like to return to the Cabinet. Most of us

:15:45. > :15:49.So much for the Tories in Europe. What will Labour? Ed Miliband's

:15:49. > :15:54.party is currently riding high in the polls and at the moment is the

:15:54. > :15:59.bookies' favourite to win an everall majority in 2015. In a

:15:59. > :16:04.speech last week, Danny Alexander gave us clues about Labour's

:16:04. > :16:09.attitude to Europe. Labour, he says, does not believe in an in-out

:16:09. > :16:14.referendum now or in the future but he doesn't want to imply his party

:16:14. > :16:17.supports the status quo. He says Labour wants a reformed and

:16:17. > :16:23.Labour wants a reformed and plexible Europe. This, -- flexible.

:16:23. > :16:28.This, he intists is not the same as an a la carte Europe where, each

:16:28. > :16:30.country can pick which bits it wants it sign up to. His party

:16:30. > :16:33.wants reforms in the Common Agricultural Policy. Although it

:16:33. > :16:37.has to be said they have tried that bfrplt he says the kind of

:16:37. > :16:42.immigration we saw after the last wave the countries from Eastern

:16:42. > :16:46.Europe joined up, should not be allowed to happen again. Though he

:16:46. > :16:51.doesn't explain now. Douglas Alexander joins me now for the

:16:51. > :16:56.Alexander joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

:16:56. > :16:59.You heard it there from Liam Fox, he is happy with the speech. They

:16:59. > :17:03.will propose a major repatriation of powers. There will be a

:17:03. > :17:08.referendum, eventually, when he does this, all predicated on the

:17:08. > :17:12.next election, of course. And we will be given a choice to vote for

:17:12. > :17:18.this most semi-detached relationship or in essence, vote to

:17:18. > :17:24.leave. Which side would you vote on? I'm working hard to make sure

:17:24. > :17:31.that David Cameron doesn't have that choice. I understand. But the

:17:31. > :17:37.fact that this has been talked about by the former minister, Liam

:17:37. > :17:42.Fox. It was a fair question, asking him if he wanted to go get into the

:17:42. > :17:46.Cabinet, than the national interest. David Cameron was rendered

:17:46. > :17:50.speechless because of the gap between what his backbenchers will

:17:50. > :17:56.tolerate and what European partners will give him. I asked, supposing

:17:56. > :18:01.the bookies are wrong and Mr Cameron forms a majority

:18:01. > :18:06.administration, he negotiates and repat try aits and goes to the

:18:06. > :18:10.people and say - either vote for this semi-detached position or out?

:18:10. > :18:13.I want Britain to stay in the European Union. You will campaign

:18:13. > :18:17.for yes. I'm not convinced the strategy David Cameron is setting

:18:17. > :18:20.out is the right strategy for Britain. You would say rather than

:18:20. > :18:26.repatrioting powers, Labour would leave the case for reform over the

:18:26. > :18:29.whole of the EU. -- lead. What major reforms did you spearhead? If

:18:29. > :18:34.you want to look at discussions we are having now, justice and hem

:18:34. > :18:38.affairs the right to that opt-out in 2014 the government is talking

:18:38. > :18:42.about, was secured by the last government. What major reform did

:18:42. > :18:47.you achieve? Working with her European partners we saw the

:18:47. > :18:51.exfenges taking in ten former Soviet Union... That had been

:18:51. > :18:54.Margaret Thatcher's policy. If you look at the success achieved from

:18:54. > :19:00.accession moving forward, the Labour Government deserves credit.

:19:00. > :19:04.We lowered the proportion of spending on agricultural spent in

:19:04. > :19:09.the budget significantly. We want to see it go further but it

:19:09. > :19:14.continued to fall. It is now down to 30%. You say you want

:19:14. > :19:17.fundamental reform of the CAP. All British governments have wanted

:19:17. > :19:22.that since the common market Progress has been made. You didn't

:19:22. > :19:27.get fundamental reform. You cut the amount of spending. It is still the

:19:27. > :19:31.biggest single item It has fallen from 70% in the mid- 80s to a

:19:31. > :19:37.position where it is 30% of European expenditure. Let me show

:19:37. > :19:44.you what the French Agriculture Minister says." We are committed to

:19:44. > :19:49.securing a strong CAP budget for EU agriculture." You haven't a hope at

:19:49. > :19:53.all. Your point if one country says something, it doesn't guarantee the

:19:53. > :19:58.other 26... I'm making a point on reform that has been going onp

:19:58. > :20:02.since the 1950s. One minister can asay something but you have to

:20:02. > :20:05.build a consensus for change. have never done that. That's the

:20:05. > :20:08.dishonesty at the heart of a suggestion that standing by the

:20:08. > :20:12.exit door, threatening to leave, Britain is necessarily going to

:20:12. > :20:17.prevail. The last time a Labour Government promised to reform CAP

:20:17. > :20:20.Tony Blair gave away a big chunk of Britain's rebate apart of the deal

:20:20. > :20:23.and nothing very much happened. You were the Europe Minister. That was

:20:23. > :20:28.nothing to do with the CAP. It had everything to do with accession.

:20:28. > :20:31.The fact that that multi-annual financial framework was agreed

:20:31. > :20:34.reflected the fact that there were ten new members of the European

:20:35. > :20:38.Union. Of course the European budget was going to change in those

:20:38. > :20:42.circumstances and incidentally giving you are quoting French

:20:42. > :20:44.ministers, Tony Blair secured for the first time broad parity in the

:20:44. > :20:46.contribution to the European Union between France and the UK.

:20:46. > :20:53.Something that even Margaret Thatcher had not achieved during

:20:53. > :20:56.her years in power. You say that Labour would lead the case for pro-

:20:56. > :21:00.growth anti-austerity economic policies, building appliances with

:21:00. > :21:03.European partners, rather than making enemies as you say Mr

:21:03. > :21:05.Cameron is. Which partners currently in power do you have for

:21:05. > :21:10.this venture snufrpblgts look at what happened in December 201 when

:21:10. > :21:16.David Cameron walked out of the European council - A few months

:21:16. > :21:20.later we saw Francois Hollande secure additional growth compacts

:21:20. > :21:26.alongside a fiscal compact. He has introduced "the most austere budget

:21:26. > :21:31.for France in 30 years." Mob is arguing there don't need to be

:21:31. > :21:33.changes. You said you would lead the case for anti-austerity.

:21:33. > :21:37.Balance between austerity and growth nooths needs to be right one

:21:37. > :21:43.stkpwhrufrplt saying the President who has introduced the most austere

:21:43. > :21:46.budget for 30 years is one of your part fers in leading the case for

:21:46. > :21:50.anti-austerity partners. It is not credible. The person who is not

:21:50. > :21:53.credible is David Cameron. He talks in his speech from the exbe tracts

:21:53. > :21:57.we have seen about the difficulty of austerity being imposed in

:21:57. > :22:03.Europe, which is what George Osborne and he are doing in the UK.

:22:03. > :22:06.Why are you so against repatrioting powers on a major scale? A report

:22:06. > :22:14.out this morning shows it is the will of the people. Is David

:22:14. > :22:20.Cameron right to do so? 59% think right. 21 opposed. 59% think this

:22:20. > :22:23.is the time, only 28% don't We will consider where the merits of those

:22:23. > :22:27.powers lie. We think it is disingenuous to suggest it is

:22:27. > :22:30.inevitable or indeed likely that if David Cameron goes with a very long

:22:30. > :22:33.shopping list and demands these powers to come back, even in

:22:33. > :22:38.circumstances where we are not sure there is going to be fundamental

:22:38. > :22:42.treaty change that he is likely to prevail. He risks being trapped by

:22:42. > :22:46.his own rhetoric. Are people wrong to want a major repatriation of

:22:46. > :22:50.powers? Of course we recognise the concerns. Are they right or wrong?

:22:50. > :22:54.The biggest deficit in Europe at the moment, in terms of the balance

:22:54. > :22:57.between democratic change and a change in policy is a delivery

:22:57. > :23:00.deficit. They want to see a European Union contributing to a

:23:00. > :23:05.change economy but they also want to see other changes. We twapbt see

:23:05. > :23:09.those changes in the late. That's why -- we want to. That'sy said we

:23:09. > :23:13.don't sport status quo. He want to see Britain in Europe but with

:23:13. > :23:18.change. Let's clear up Labour's position on referendum and on the

:23:18. > :23:22.existing law which this coalition introduced which guarantees a

:23:22. > :23:28.referendum in the event of any transfer of powers from Westminster

:23:28. > :23:31.to Brussels. You told me you had "No plans to repeal it", I suggest

:23:31. > :23:34.these are the weasle words politicians use. Will you promise

:23:34. > :23:37.to leave that in fact for the lifetime of the next Parliament?

:23:38. > :23:41.intend to. Ed Miliband said as much on the Today programme on Thursday

:23:41. > :23:45.morning. We are not planning to change that. Obviously if there is

:23:45. > :23:49.a new piece of legislation, we will keep it under review. Will there be

:23:49. > :23:52.a commitment in the next Labour manifesto not to repeal it? I'm in

:23:52. > :23:56.the going to right the referendum on your programme. We are not

:23:56. > :23:59.planning on change the referendum lock established in this Parliament.

:23:59. > :24:04.Will you in the next manifesto, will you privatise the NHS? We are

:24:04. > :24:08.not planning on privatising the NHS either. So, you can answer that.

:24:08. > :24:13.Can you tell me - will there be a Labour manifesto commitment not to

:24:13. > :24:16.repeal the referendum? We will dedeal with this issue and other

:24:16. > :24:19.issues at the time of the manifesto. Ed Miliband said on Thursday

:24:19. > :24:22.morning we are not planning on changing the referendum lock

:24:22. > :24:29.established in this Parliament. Will you promise, if there is a

:24:29. > :24:32.transfer of power,, as agreed under Labour, to Brussels -- if there was

:24:33. > :24:35.a transfer of powers from London to Brussels, under a Labour Government,

:24:36. > :24:38.that you would put that to the people, as laid down in the

:24:38. > :24:43.legislation? Well, that is established in the legislation. It

:24:43. > :24:48.would need to be. Would you do so? It would need to meet the threshold

:24:48. > :24:52.established by the law on statute. If it meets the statute threshold

:24:52. > :24:57.it would be put to the people in a referendum. The reason people

:24:57. > :25:00.expect you to be categorical or more so, is you voted against the

:25:00. > :25:06.referendum legislation Yes at the second reading. They don't trust

:25:06. > :25:12.you. Let me explain Ywe had real concerns. These were -- why. These

:25:12. > :25:15.were share Bidwell-known europhiles like Bill Cash because it would

:25:15. > :25:20.create concerns about the level of judicial review over European

:25:20. > :25:24.policy. That's why it seemed we should raise the doubts. We didn't

:25:24. > :25:27.vote against it at third reading, there wasn't a division in the

:25:27. > :25:30.Commons. Are you prepared to rule out any kind of in-out referendum?

:25:30. > :25:33.I don't think it is the right choice for Britain and I don't

:25:33. > :25:35.think to announce a referendum years ahead on negotiation that is

:25:35. > :25:39.haven't begun make sense. Can you say under a Labour Government, bar

:25:39. > :25:43.what we were talking about, a possible vote on a transfer of more

:25:43. > :25:47.power to Brussels, that there will be, bar that, no referendum? Well,

:25:47. > :25:50.we don't believe it is right to now announce a referendum for years

:25:50. > :25:52.into the next Parliament, as I understand is what is being

:25:52. > :25:58.contemplated by David Cameron this week.

:25:59. > :26:01.So there will be no in-out... Can you be explicit - will there be no

:26:01. > :26:05.in-out referendum under a Labour Government? We don't think that is

:26:05. > :26:10.a choice that could or should be made now. We believe it is the

:26:10. > :26:12.wrong choice for tpwroin commit to up to seven years of economic

:26:13. > :26:16.instability with investment under threat as we expect the Prime

:26:16. > :26:20.Minister will announce much it is rarely rise in international

:26:20. > :26:23.relations to ever say "never" and we will need to see the changing

:26:23. > :26:27.shape of Europe in the years ahead but as we can anticipate the

:26:27. > :26:31.changing shape of Europe today, we don't think it is the right choice.

:26:31. > :26:38.Let me ask you about the developing situation in Algeria. Do you aggro

:26:38. > :26:42.that parts of North Africa, known as the Sahell, the part from the

:26:42. > :26:48.Atlantic coast through to the head sea are the cockpit of Al-Qaeda

:26:48. > :26:51.terrorism and if do you, what should Britain do? I agree that the

:26:51. > :26:55.Sahell and North Africa more generally is a greing threat

:26:55. > :26:59.because it is represents ungoverned space. In northern Mali we are

:26:59. > :27:05.talking about a country twice the size of Germany effectively under

:27:05. > :27:09.the control control of violent extremists. I don't think it serves

:27:09. > :27:13.the interests of Britain as a whole to serve the war on terrorist. I

:27:13. > :27:17.think that language was harmful rather than beneficial. I think we

:27:17. > :27:21.need to recognise this as a regional threat that demands a

:27:21. > :27:25.regional response. I would like to see an African-led response to the

:27:25. > :27:29.challenges in Mali. We have been waiting for that for over six

:27:29. > :27:33.months Yes and there are Nigerian troops due to arrive in September,

:27:33. > :27:37.which is why the French acted. Because they didn't turn up. They

:27:37. > :27:39.have more than 6,000 French nationals in Mali. But it adds

:27:39. > :27:44.urgency both to the mill train diplomatic response. It is fine for

:27:44. > :27:49.you to say a regional thing. But the reality here, there is supposed

:27:49. > :27:52.to be 5,500 West African troops going to Mali. So far fewer than

:27:52. > :27:56.100 arrived. At the meeting they decided they couldn't afford the

:27:56. > :28:01.military transport to send them. I would also point out - none of

:28:01. > :28:04.these troops has any desert training. I wouldn't dispute of of

:28:04. > :28:08.those points. I would dispute that the right response, therefore, is

:28:08. > :28:12.to put British boots on the ground. We need to recognise, first of all,

:28:12. > :28:16.that many of these insurgencies have roots that go back decades, if

:28:16. > :28:20.not centuries and secondly, have we not learned that the truth is, the

:28:20. > :28:23.way to respond to a insurgency may involve a military component by

:28:23. > :28:26.regional force bus requires a political, diplomatic and

:28:26. > :28:30.development effort as well. So far as you are concerned, the French

:28:31. > :28:35.are on their own? No, the British Government have provided aircraft.

:28:35. > :28:38.We supported that in the Commons. But there is a difference between

:28:38. > :28:41.logistical support and being in a position where an immediate

:28:41. > :28:46.response today leads to longer-terl challenges in the future. Frankly,

:28:46. > :28:50.I think now is a time for cool heads and caution in relation to

:28:50. > :28:54.the emerging threat in North Africa. Thank you for being on the Sunday

:28:54. > :28:57.Politics. Should teachers be paid according to how well they perform?

:28:57. > :29:00.The Government think so and from September it's giving head teachers

:29:00. > :29:04.from all schools in England the power to decide whether or not

:29:04. > :29:07.their staff can have a pay rise. It's likely to put Education

:29:07. > :29:10.Secretary, Michael Gove on a collision course with the teaching

:29:10. > :29:20.unions again. They accuse the Government of tearing up national

:29:20. > :29:22.

:29:22. > :29:27.Giving children the best education possible. It's what teachers,

:29:27. > :29:30.parents and the Government all want. But, does performance-related pay

:29:30. > :29:34.equal better teachers? Academies like this one in east London

:29:34. > :29:39.already have the power to try that approach and the principle here

:29:39. > :29:43.supports the idea. He says not all teachers should get pay rises.

:29:43. > :29:47.have to be willing to say no because the peformance doesn't

:29:47. > :29:51.match the expectation. It's become the norm that people move from the

:29:51. > :29:55.main pay scale to the upper pay scale and it's become an

:29:56. > :30:00.expectation, rather than rewarding the peformance of the teacher.

:30:00. > :30:03.What's changing then? Well at the moment almost all newly-qualified

:30:03. > :30:08.teachers see their pay increase automatically by around �2,000 a

:30:08. > :30:15.year. So, a newly-qualified teacher outside of London who earns a sal

:30:15. > :30:19.riff just over �21,500, typically sees that rise to just over �31,500

:30:19. > :30:27.after five more years of teaching. But from September, all teachers'

:30:27. > :30:32.pay will be linked to their Key independent schoolteachers

:30:32. > :30:37.review board was tasked with looking at the options by Michael

:30:37. > :30:41.Gove, who has long been a supporter of the idea. The Department for

:30:41. > :30:44.Education says that performance- related pay would reward good

:30:44. > :30:50.teachers and it would help schools in disadvantaged areas to attract

:30:50. > :30:53.and retain the best teachers. But teaching unions are not happy. They

:30:53. > :30:56.say there's no evidence performance-related pay raises

:30:56. > :31:03.standards and they say it is further reducing morale among

:31:03. > :31:08.teachers. Helping his daughter with her homework, this English teacher

:31:08. > :31:12.works at a comprehensive school in east London. He thinks children

:31:12. > :31:15.will not be taught the softer skills employers want like

:31:16. > :31:22.communication if teachers are focused on how best to earn a pay

:31:22. > :31:25.rise. They are talking in a very narrow way, pass this bit and you

:31:25. > :31:30.will get there. When you get there you find you don't have those

:31:30. > :31:35.skills. The wherries with performance related pay that

:31:36. > :31:41.teachers will be dashed the worry is that performance-related pay

:31:41. > :31:44.will just make teachers worry about that sort of thing. Linking pay to

:31:44. > :31:48.performance is an issue that could see teachers resorting to more

:31:48. > :31:52.strike action, but the union that represents head teachers is broadly

:31:52. > :31:56.supportive of the idea, although excepts there will be losers as

:31:56. > :31:59.well as winners. Her there's no more money going into schools at

:32:00. > :32:03.the moment so the head has to decide. If they are going to pay

:32:03. > :32:08.some teachers more, they will not be able to pay others as much as

:32:08. > :32:12.they would have done. It is how their children perform in the

:32:12. > :32:15.classroom that parents will care about.

:32:15. > :32:25.With me now is the former Schools Minister, Nick Gibb, and the

:32:25. > :32:27.

:32:27. > :32:33.General Secretary of the NUT, We already have performance-related

:32:33. > :32:37.elements of teachers' pay, why do we need more? In the senior levels

:32:37. > :32:42.there's some performance related pay, but lower down, teachers are

:32:42. > :32:45.generally going up in increments automatically on the basis of time

:32:45. > :32:48.served. We need to ensure their head teacher has the discretion to

:32:48. > :32:54.reward the best teachers and an incentive to recruit the best

:32:54. > :32:58.teachers. This is common practice in the private sector. The majority

:32:58. > :33:02.of companies in the private sector reward their employees on the basis

:33:02. > :33:06.of performance and if we want to raise the status of the teaching

:33:06. > :33:11.profession, we have to go down this route. We attract the best into the

:33:11. > :33:16.profession with more. Let me pick up a couple of things. He said

:33:16. > :33:22.teachers go up on the basis of time served. That is not a point.

:33:22. > :33:28.Teachers go up the pay scale on the basis of increased experience and

:33:28. > :33:34.expertise. We've had an incremental arrangement since 1920 and although

:33:34. > :33:40.it has changed quite a lot since then, it is really important that

:33:40. > :33:44.teachers can plan their career. Progression in Pavey in teaching is

:33:44. > :33:48.lower and slower than in other graduate professions. It should

:33:48. > :33:55.automatically go up regardless of performance? There are already some

:33:55. > :33:58.performance elements in teaching. You don't find people -- find

:33:58. > :34:02.people into better teachers. If there's a question about someone's

:34:02. > :34:08.performance, that needs to be addressed. If you look around the

:34:08. > :34:11.world... You make sure they have the proper professional development.

:34:11. > :34:16.The best performing countries, the best education systems are in

:34:16. > :34:19.Finland, South Korea, Singapore. They recruit teachers from the top

:34:19. > :34:27.third of students leaving university. We recruit from across

:34:27. > :34:31.the ability range. We have to move towards that model. If you want to

:34:31. > :34:35.recruit high-flyers into teaching, rapid promotion, a more flexible

:34:35. > :34:39.approach to pay and progression is the way to do it. The problem with

:34:39. > :34:45.that is that there would be rapid promotion for large numbers of

:34:45. > :34:50.people. -- if there would not be. The amount of money being put into

:34:50. > :34:55.school this year and next is frozen. You will not be able to promote

:34:55. > :35:05.people unless you are holding down the pay of fathers. We all know

:35:05. > :35:10.that teaching is essentially It is really important that we have

:35:10. > :35:13.a fair pay. Other professions also work collaboratively. I thought he

:35:13. > :35:18.would be in favour of this flexibility. It will enable schools

:35:18. > :35:22.in deprived areas, that have a problem recruiting teachers,

:35:22. > :35:27.headteachers will have the flexibility to pay beyond the pay

:35:27. > :35:30.scales and recruiter maths teacher into an inner-city school, giving

:35:30. > :35:35.those children who have been let down for decades by those inner-

:35:35. > :35:40.city failing schools the ability to have a first class education. That

:35:40. > :35:45.is how you close the attainment gap. Some of the inner cities have some

:35:45. > :35:53.of the best schools imaginable. London is doing brilliantly. The

:35:53. > :35:58.current arrangements... The existing system provides for

:35:59. > :36:06.recruitment and retention points. The really critical thing is that

:36:06. > :36:10.if those in teaching now don't see a career path, it will be a problem.

:36:11. > :36:15.You know that we are still managing to recruit teachers, but we lose a

:36:16. > :36:22.lot of them in the first five years. If Pavey is in dispute, we will

:36:23. > :36:26.have even more difficulty. -- if Pavey. Her unlike a business, which

:36:26. > :36:33.is bottom-line driven and easier to reward, schools are collegiate

:36:33. > :36:39.places. Can you separate the impact of individual teachers on any given

:36:39. > :36:43.pupil? Yes. You will not pay people on the basis of a direct formulaic

:36:43. > :36:48.approach to the exam results of their students. It will be based on

:36:48. > :36:52.a nuanced approach. Head teachers know how to conduct appraisals.

:36:52. > :36:56.They will look at the overall contribution that each is making.

:36:56. > :37:00.It is all in the hands of the head teacher. You'll have to be nice.

:37:00. > :37:03.Head teachers themselves will be appraised on the basis of how

:37:03. > :37:07.professional they are. Her Ofsted will look at how they conduct their

:37:08. > :37:12.appraisals. They will be regulated? The head teacher will be appraised

:37:12. > :37:16.by the governing body and the school itself is subject to Ofsted.

:37:16. > :37:19.Head teachers seem to want this move, they think it would be better

:37:19. > :37:23.at the teachers. For what is interesting is that in the

:37:23. > :37:30.Academy's arrangements it has been possible for those schools to opt

:37:30. > :37:38.out. By they haven't chosen to do it. When they have had the freedom

:37:38. > :37:45.to do it. Why not? Why are they not doing it? It is a cultural change

:37:45. > :37:49.in most academies. They signed up for the teachers' pay document. The

:37:49. > :37:53.Government is trying to change the culture in our schools, to move

:37:53. > :37:58.them to be more professional places so we can raise the status of

:37:58. > :38:03.teachers. That is what happens in professions outside teaching.

:38:03. > :38:08.that there's not much money around, does it not follow that the pot is

:38:08. > :38:16.largely limited so if you're going to pay her more, you will either

:38:16. > :38:19.have to freeze any of pain the less? Exactly. Not many! Head

:38:19. > :38:25.teachers have to marshal their budget carefully and they have to

:38:25. > :38:31.be able to have the flexibility to reward the best teachers. That is

:38:31. > :38:34.how you raise standards. It is like an existential threat for the NUT.

:38:34. > :38:40.You exist on national pay bargaining. This would be the end

:38:40. > :38:44.of that. We've had a review body system for quite a long time. I can

:38:44. > :38:49.assure users quite a lot of bargaining at a lot of other levels.

:38:49. > :38:53.You know what I mean. The NUT is concerned about a lot of things.

:38:53. > :38:59.Curriculum, the shape of education. Do you feel strongly enough to take

:38:59. > :39:03.industrial action? Potentially. We will have a ballot. We want to make

:39:03. > :39:06.the case for saying one of the difficulties, if you break up the

:39:06. > :39:10.system, is that every school will have to have its own pay

:39:10. > :39:14.arrangements and that will take the head teacher's eye off the ball

:39:14. > :39:19.have overseen teaching and learning. A key element of overseeing

:39:19. > :39:24.teaching quality it is the annual appraisal. It is not just about

:39:24. > :39:28.sticks, it is about training needs to nurture teachers. Those teachers

:39:28. > :39:31.not performing to their best up brought on and the extra

:39:31. > :39:35.flexibility that head teachers have will enable them to be up to reward

:39:35. > :39:39.and incentive eyes. You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:39. > :39:42.Coming up in just over 20 minutes: I'll be looking at the week ahead

:39:42. > :39:52.with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics across

:39:52. > :39:56.

:39:56. > :39:58.Hello and welcome. Coming up later in the programme:

:39:59. > :40:02.Our exclusive survey which will tell you whether you'll be paying

:40:02. > :40:05.more council tax this year. Here with us this week -

:40:05. > :40:12.Conservative MP for Harrow East, Bob Blackman, and Labour MP for

:40:12. > :40:15.Limehouse & Poplar, Jim Fitzpatrick. Welcome.

:40:15. > :40:18.First off, it was the first fatal helicopter crash in the capital

:40:18. > :40:22.since official records began 37 years ago. The accident at Vauxhall

:40:22. > :40:24.killed two and injured 12 others. Given the place and the time, the

:40:24. > :40:27.consequences could clearly have been far more severe and it's

:40:27. > :40:35.prompted calls for a review of the number of flights and tall

:40:35. > :40:41.buildings in the capital. I think we need to ask a lot of

:40:41. > :40:50.questions. Why was the helicopter flying if the weather was bad? Why

:40:51. > :40:54.was there no warning light on the crane? Do we need to look again at

:40:54. > :41:00.who we are allowed to fly in London? Some helicopters have to

:41:00. > :41:05.fly, police helicopters and medical helicopter has a calf but there's

:41:05. > :41:09.been an increase it in the last few years. That coupled with the number

:41:09. > :41:13.of high buildings shows we need to look again at the regulations and

:41:13. > :41:18.the safety requirements. And if some of the safety requirements

:41:18. > :41:20.already in place have not been followed. People always want

:41:21. > :41:29.something to be done after something like this, but do you

:41:29. > :41:36.agree? There needs to be a review and there will be reviewed. The

:41:36. > :41:39.Prime Minister said on Wednesday there will be a review. The Air

:41:39. > :41:42.Accident Investigation Branch has got a very good track record of

:41:42. > :41:45.getting to the bottom of what happened whenever there are

:41:45. > :41:50.incidents and making recommendations. We have got many

:41:50. > :41:54.more tall buildings in London. Regulations may not have been

:41:54. > :42:02.reviewed for some time and this provides an opportunity on the back

:42:02. > :42:07.of a tragedy. Records show that in the last 20 years there have been

:42:07. > :42:15.about 12 incidents, at six or seven at Battersea, three involving the

:42:15. > :42:18.air ambulance. This sounds like it might be timely. It is obviously

:42:18. > :42:27.timely on the back of the deaths that have occurred. It did it ever

:42:27. > :42:35.come across your desk? Was it not an issue? There was never a need to

:42:35. > :42:39.review regulation on the back of any particular incident, but the

:42:39. > :42:42.Civil Aviation Authority undertakes a continuous review of aviation and

:42:42. > :42:47.safety is always at the forefront of their agenda and of the

:42:47. > :42:54.Government's agenda. This provides an opportunity to say maybe things

:42:54. > :42:59.need to be changed. Many other international cities, for high rise

:42:59. > :43:08.illuminations, flashing lights, are far more prominent. I think of

:43:08. > :43:12.Tokyo in particular. Having said that, that will be looked at.

:43:12. > :43:16.the helicopters or the building's? I can't remember whether you were

:43:16. > :43:22.somebody particularly keen on seeing the landscape of the city

:43:22. > :43:27.transformed? We should have great sympathy for the relatives of the

:43:27. > :43:36.men that died. And also express our appreciation for the firefighters

:43:36. > :43:40.and emergency services. In terms of the landscape, I don't like tall

:43:40. > :43:46.buildings and I think they are a huge risk. London's landscape has

:43:46. > :43:51.clearly changed. It demonstrates that the problems we have with both

:43:51. > :43:56.helicopters and aircraft flying across London on a daily basis. The

:43:56. > :44:00.review has to take place and I hope we will get some proper results.

:44:01. > :44:06.Something should be looked at, as the Prime Minister said. Indeed.

:44:06. > :44:16.But the clear she has to be safety for everybody concerned. -- at the

:44:16. > :44:17.

:44:17. > :44:23.clear issue. This will give an opportunity to look at the cuts

:44:23. > :44:33.planned for the London Fire Brigade to see if they are appropriate.

:44:33. > :44:37.will be looking at that at some It is another tough budget round

:44:37. > :44:40.for London's councils. Raising council tax has become unsavoury

:44:40. > :44:44.for most political parties. And there is a financial incentive from

:44:44. > :44:50.Whitehall to freeze it. We found not all are prepared to accept this

:44:50. > :44:55.inducement. Once upon a time these offices were

:44:55. > :45:01.filled with council workers. Not any more. Fulham Town Hall is to be

:45:01. > :45:05.sold off a result of reducing staff and reorganising the property

:45:05. > :45:08.portfolio. The savings will help Hammersmith and Fulham deliver

:45:08. > :45:11.their sixth reduction in council tax in recent years. Often called

:45:11. > :45:15.David Cameron's favourite council, they are untroubled by the fact

:45:15. > :45:19.that the Government is giving them lest money. The country is skint.

:45:19. > :45:23.And local Government is a high spending area and there are other

:45:23. > :45:28.areas that the government has chosen not to seek reductions in,

:45:28. > :45:33.such as health care. We are in a hole, so, therefore, it is

:45:33. > :45:36.completely rational for central Government to look to reduce its

:45:36. > :45:42.spending departments accordingly. If you talk to councils across

:45:42. > :45:44.London a lot will tell you something similar: which is despite

:45:44. > :45:49.Government splashing the amount of money they get, they have managed

:45:49. > :45:53.to keep services going the way they have done bfrplt the way they've

:45:53. > :45:59.done that is by backing more efficient and streamlined. We asked

:45:59. > :46:04.every council about staffing levels. They are all employing on average

:46:04. > :46:09.370 fewer people than three years ago but 80% have not shut a library

:46:09. > :46:13.and nearly 90% have no change in elderly care entitlement. In one

:46:13. > :46:17.borough it has gone up. But increasing tax to pay for that

:46:17. > :46:21.isn't on the cards. 14 councils say they'll freeze it. Hammersmith will

:46:21. > :46:26.cut it and two plan to increase it. Nine are yet to make a decision.

:46:26. > :46:31.Seven didn't get back to us. One reason for the freezes might be

:46:31. > :46:36.Government have offered councils extra cash if he didn't raise

:46:36. > :46:40.council tax, worth the equivalent of a 1% increase. North London's

:46:40. > :46:43.Harrow hasn't taken them up on the offer. They say the priority is

:46:43. > :46:47.keeping libraries and children's services open. The council say the

:46:47. > :46:50.only way they can do that is by raising council tax by 2%. That

:46:50. > :46:54.number be is not just plucked out of the air. It is very important.

:46:54. > :46:57.If it was over 2%, under new Government rules, it would trigger

:46:57. > :47:00.a local referendum and the residents in Harrow would get a

:47:00. > :47:05.vote on whether council tax went up or not. The council say that

:47:05. > :47:09.decision has nothing to do with the fear of losing the vote. A

:47:09. > :47:13.referendum is a huge cost to the borough. �300,000. At the time when

:47:13. > :47:17.we are cutting expenditure across all areas, it's not something that

:47:17. > :47:21.can be justified. Indeed, sich is the scale of the cuts from

:47:21. > :47:24.Government, -- such is the scale, even with increased council tax,

:47:24. > :47:29.Harrow will be spending millions less this year than they did last.

:47:29. > :47:32.So, if it's possible to keep things running with less money, did

:47:32. > :47:36.councils perhaps have too much to begin with? Privately a number of

:47:36. > :47:39.leaders and chief executives will say they are surprised how little

:47:39. > :47:43.difficulty and impact there has been in making what have been real

:47:43. > :47:46.cuts. There is no question, local government have had far deeper cuts

:47:46. > :47:50.than other parts of the public sector. Tpwhu raises the question

:47:50. > :47:57.whether there is a tipping point -- but this raises the question.

:47:57. > :48:01.Whether you can manage 5%, 10% and 15%, but not 20, 25 and 30%. There

:48:01. > :48:05.are some things council is legally obliged to spend money on, the most

:48:05. > :48:10.expensive of which is social care. It's expected to increase, some say

:48:10. > :48:19.it a tipping point this. Led Barnet Council to draw up what has been

:48:19. > :48:25.called The Grf Of Doom. Graph. It show house children's services and

:48:25. > :48:28.social care is expected to rise while it's budget will fall. The

:48:28. > :48:32.graph predicts all the budget will be taken up with these things,

:48:33. > :48:36.leaving no money for anything else, no libraries, leisure centres or

:48:36. > :48:40.parks. Some think this scenario may never come to pass and many in

:48:40. > :48:46.London are worried while the cuts so far may have been manageable,

:48:46. > :48:49.the future may look very bleak. Bob Neill has joined us a former local

:48:49. > :48:53.government minister and Conservative MP from Bromley and

:48:53. > :48:58.Chislehurst. We were part of the regime that offered this extra

:48:58. > :49:03.grant. Are you all right?! Still alive?! Jim is amazed we have two

:49:03. > :49:10.West Ham supporters in the studio. We will come to that. Not often in

:49:10. > :49:13.front. You set up the regime that offered this inducement of a grant

:49:13. > :49:18.in councils froze their council tax. -Ar yes have looked at it and have

:49:18. > :49:23.worked out that doesn't make sense for them thae, fair enough, stpbt.

:49:23. > :49:26.- Harrow have looked at it. Think it is a sad decision. There is more

:49:26. > :49:29.to it. We said under the previous Labour Government, the Secretary of

:49:29. > :49:33.State, if you like, controlled how much you could put your council tax

:49:33. > :49:37.up by capping it. We got rid of that and said if you want to put

:49:37. > :49:41.your council tax up by more than the normal amount, if you have a

:49:41. > :49:44.really good case, you go and make that case to your electors. Harrow

:49:44. > :49:50.have chickened out. They have gone for the maximum they can get away

:49:50. > :49:54.with without asking electors Ydid they do this? Bob Blackmore will be

:49:54. > :49:57.able it till, he is the local MP. Labour got fewer votes than the

:49:57. > :50:01.Conservatives in Harrow it is last election. They managed the get nor

:50:01. > :50:07.seats because of the boundaries. They knew they would lose. Harrows

:50:07. > :50:14.electors will make their decision in two years' time. One year time.

:50:14. > :50:18.But the sad thing is a if we had a brave council, they would ask that

:50:18. > :50:25.question now, rather than take the money off them. What hold a

:50:25. > :50:30.referendum and pay the cost. There have been referendums. How much do

:50:30. > :50:34.referendums cost? �300,000? If you are going to be serious, Tim, about

:50:34. > :50:38.localism, localism doesn't shop just at the door of the Town Hall,

:50:38. > :50:42.it is about giving control back to communities as well. If you are

:50:42. > :50:46.serious about localism, why don't you leave it the to the local

:50:46. > :50:49.authority? The people to raise the money they feel are needed for

:50:49. > :50:53.their local services and an electorate will decide over the

:50:53. > :50:57.four-year cycle or whatever, whether it was competent and a good

:50:57. > :51:01.use of public money. I think you are forgetting the history. This is

:51:01. > :51:06.actually a devolutionry measure this government brought. In for all

:51:06. > :51:09.the years under John Prescott, the years when Jim was a member of the

:51:09. > :51:13.Government, the central Government proscribed the maximum budget. We

:51:13. > :51:17.have got rid of that and allowed the local people in the community

:51:17. > :51:22.to decide. We should be congratulated not criticised for

:51:22. > :51:25.that. Collar if I something:. If local -- clarify something. If

:51:25. > :51:29.local collectors wanted to preserve services and wanted council taxs to

:51:29. > :51:32.go up, could there be a referendum asking for a higher rate for the

:51:32. > :51:35.council, say Westminster - which want Westminster to put our council

:51:35. > :51:39.tax up. Could there be a referendum? It doesn't seem to work

:51:39. > :51:44.the right way. I think you are missing the point. Local councils

:51:44. > :51:47.have a duty to provide a budget. They have the statutory duty to

:51:47. > :51:51.provide the services. They produce the budget. In the old days there

:51:52. > :51:54.was a national cap on what they could do about how much they put

:51:54. > :51:59.their council tax up. What we have said is they can do two things..

:51:59. > :52:04.You are saying, no, they can't have the right to put up the council tax.

:52:04. > :52:08.It is not the whole picture about localism. You are not giving the

:52:08. > :52:12.whole context, if you forgive me saying so. The context is firstly

:52:12. > :52:15.we are recognising for lower waged people, the council tax is a

:52:15. > :52:19.significant amount of their cost of living so we have sought to

:52:19. > :52:22.restrain that. I think that's desirable. Secondly we have said -

:52:22. > :52:27.you have the statutory duty to provide the services. If you say

:52:27. > :52:31.the way you wanted to provide those services will cost more, you should

:52:31. > :52:35.ask your local residents. Fitzpatrick, what do you think?

:52:35. > :52:40.think it's fascinating to be attacked by a fellow West Ham fan.

:52:41. > :52:44.His heart is clearly not in it. The Government have changed the rules.

:52:44. > :52:49.East London councils like Tower Hamlets, Newham and Hackney are

:52:49. > :52:54.losing in Government revenue over �200 per resident compared to kings

:52:54. > :52:58.stone, Sutton, Richmond, who are losing pennies. So the loss for

:52:58. > :53:04.boroughs where there are greater poverty issues, where there are

:53:04. > :53:08.greater needs, where there are more you will have nerblt, those

:53:08. > :53:14.boroughs are losing more. -- vulnerability. It is great for Bob

:53:14. > :53:23.to say - we are providing localism. Localism says trust the council.

:53:23. > :53:33.But local residents then say, we do or don't endorse it. Let's bring in

:53:33. > :53:38.

:53:38. > :53:43.Black - Bob Blackmore. The area you represent, compared to Brent, next

:53:43. > :53:47.door, Harrow is regarded as outer London but with inner London

:53:47. > :53:53.problems, they are stkpwg to have to make �25 million worth of cuts

:53:53. > :53:56.even before the rise. The clear issue is before the 2010 general

:53:56. > :54:00.election, everyone involved in local government knew whoever won,

:54:00. > :54:03.there would be reductions in local authority expenditure. Everyone

:54:04. > :54:10.knew that. And everyone should have planned for it and understood it

:54:10. > :54:15.was going to happen. Now -ar yes, for example, have turned their

:54:15. > :54:18.backs -- Harrow, have turned their backs on Government grants. One of

:54:18. > :54:22.the issue abouts a council tax freeze was that it was a one year

:54:22. > :54:25.option. And people might have said it was risky because what happens

:54:25. > :54:28.if the Government don't provide it next year. Now they have

:54:28. > :54:31.incorporated that in the Government grant going forward. Harrow have

:54:32. > :54:35.said not only are they going to increase it by 2% this year but

:54:36. > :54:40.next year and the year after that. So what we are looking at is they

:54:40. > :54:46.have rejected the potential, at least of �3.6 million of Government

:54:46. > :54:49.money and instead inflicted that on the council tax payers instead.

:54:49. > :54:52.final thought, Bromley, your local Conservative council want to do the

:54:52. > :54:58.same thing. Bromley will ultimately take its decision. We haven't had

:54:58. > :55:02.the full council meeting. What have they got wrong? Hang on. If would

:55:02. > :55:07.helpful if you would let people make a point, really, wouldn't it?

:55:07. > :55:11.Let me point out that Harrow receives one-third more central

:55:11. > :55:15.Government support than Bromley does. Jim's authority receives

:55:15. > :55:19.nearly three times' as much central Government support as Bromley.

:55:19. > :55:23.you happy for Bromley to make that decision? I hope they will not. I

:55:23. > :55:31.think all councils should be seeking to keep it down and not to

:55:31. > :55:35.pass it on. It reflects that it is not something you can pin on Labour

:55:35. > :55:41.over-spending Islington has said it can freeze council tax until 2015

:55:41. > :55:45.and made all of its savingings of �30 million on efficiencies. There

:55:45. > :55:48.is a an inner London council, they can do it. Why can't Harrow?

:55:49. > :55:52.Stkpwhroo look at Hammersmith and Fulham, they are redousing their

:55:52. > :55:55.council tax for the sixth time in seven years. Look at Hammersmith

:55:55. > :56:00.and Fulham. They are reducing. Thank you for coming. In

:56:00. > :56:03.A are you has broken out over what councils are allowed to do to

:56:03. > :56:06.clampdown on illegal sex shops. Westminster Council, is trying to

:56:06. > :56:11.overturn a court ruling which says it cannot use the money it receives

:56:11. > :56:16.from the licences for legal establishments, to take enforcement

:56:16. > :56:21.action against illicit ones. Jerry Thomas has more details.

:56:21. > :56:25.Running a licensed sex shop in Soho is an expensive business.

:56:25. > :56:29.Westminster Council charges �19,000 for an annual trading licence this.

:56:29. > :56:33.Amount and what it is used for has sparked a rou. The council contends

:56:34. > :56:38.a large part of this revenue is required to help with the cost of

:56:38. > :56:43.tackling unlicensed sex shops. However six proprietors of licensed

:56:43. > :56:48.shops have done to the High Court and argued under an EU direct

:56:48. > :56:58.riffive the proceeds from licencing sex shops can nobt used for

:56:58. > :57:01.

:57:01. > :57:05.Westminster Council believes this EU legislation could open the flood

:57:05. > :57:09.gates for illegal sex shops. Audrey lieu sis here from

:57:09. > :57:13.Westminster Council. She is a councillor who is the chair of the

:57:13. > :57:17.licencing committee at the council. -- Audrey Lewis is here. What are

:57:17. > :57:21.you going to do about this? We have appealed the High Court decision.

:57:21. > :57:25.We have just had really quite good news, encouraging news, which is

:57:25. > :57:30.that the Appeal Court have now said that they are minded to refer it

:57:30. > :57:36.back to the European Court of Justice. But the basic principle,

:57:36. > :57:41.why are you charging �20,000 or so to licence sex shops, using some of

:57:41. > :57:46.that money, not for other purposes, but used to endorse and take action

:57:46. > :57:49.against illegal ones? Well it is a general principle of how licencing

:57:49. > :57:53.works. In every kind of category of licencing pretty more or less, the

:57:53. > :57:58.cost of actually running the whole system for that group of premises

:57:58. > :58:03.or whatever it might be, is - includes the cost of making sure

:58:03. > :58:08.that illegal traders can't operate. But �20,000. How much do you charge

:58:08. > :58:12.a casino, for instance? Casinos are in a completely different cat gre.

:58:12. > :58:16.Is it anything like remote the �20,000. Why do you charge

:58:16. > :58:21.particularly more for sex shops? The reason we charge this for sex

:58:21. > :58:27.shops is because that's what it costs to us do it. Ten years ago we

:58:27. > :58:31.had 60 illegal sex shops in Soho. We spent a fortune... Costs to do

:58:31. > :58:34.it. Costs to police the whole area, the illegal ones included? Because

:58:34. > :58:38.when you deal with an illegal sex shop you have to look at every

:58:38. > :58:45.detail of how they operate. You actually have to look at the DVDs.

:58:45. > :58:50.We have got people, sadly, who spend their time checking DVDs and

:58:50. > :58:54.making certain they aren't containing disgusting things

:58:54. > :58:57.which... But the principle you should penalise and make it much

:58:57. > :59:02.harder on the legitimate ones, who are running decent businesses and

:59:02. > :59:06.you have no complaint about, and make them pay for the cost.

:59:06. > :59:10.legitimate ones have been greatful over the years, we have turfed out

:59:10. > :59:14.the bad practitioners. There is a terrible market for bad sex

:59:14. > :59:19.information and, unfortunately, people who do it make a fortune.

:59:19. > :59:23.And the sex shops which have been reduced now down to six because we

:59:23. > :59:26.closed another one yesterday, have been extremely grateful. It is a

:59:26. > :59:31.way of just trying to curtail legitimate, you know, free trade

:59:31. > :59:34.sex shops in the area, isn't it? it is trying help the legitimate

:59:34. > :59:38.sex shops who have been making good money over the years. I suspect

:59:38. > :59:41.what is hitting them now is they, like a lot of the retail trade,

:59:41. > :59:45.they are being hit by what is happening on the internet. It is

:59:45. > :59:49.not fair in terms of European terms, and you understand why the EU have

:59:49. > :59:53.got involved, they have not just the normal costs of running a

:59:53. > :59:58.business, they are having it pay this extra penalty, you impose on

:59:58. > :00:01.them Every year we look at how much it cost. If we it got to the point

:00:01. > :00:05.where we had foo illegal sex shops we would still have to have some

:00:05. > :00:10.regime of making sure they weren't operating illegally but

:00:10. > :00:13.nevertheless, across every type of business - it is also true of

:00:13. > :00:20.premises like alcohol premises. There you have to spend a lot of

:00:20. > :00:23.money on enforcement. You can asked me about casinos. I can't give you

:00:23. > :00:31.a sensible answer because the Government stepped. In I wanted an

:00:31. > :00:41.example. We will watch the appeal It's time for a round-up of the

:00:41. > :00:42.

:00:42. > :00:46.rest of the political news in 60 314 mobile phones are stolen every

:00:46. > :00:51.day in the capital. It was revealed as the Met launched a campaign to

:00:51. > :00:56.cut street robbery. Mobile thefts account for 70% of items taken in

:00:56. > :01:02.personal robberies. To taxi for Peter Hendy. The boss

:01:02. > :01:05.of Transport for London her boss might expenses were revealed,

:01:05. > :01:09.including the cost of 400 cab journeys.

:01:09. > :01:14.Is this camera Hammersmith and Fulham's golden goose. This

:01:14. > :01:17.reduction has netted the council nearly �300 million in fines as

:01:17. > :01:22.motorists get caught waiting to turn at traffic lights.

:01:22. > :01:26.London Premiership football clubs are paying for just 60% of the

:01:26. > :01:30.policing costs incurred during their matches. Some of the richest

:01:30. > :01:34.football clubs in the country are not paying the full cost of the

:01:34. > :01:42.policing costs for their matches. Chelsea came close to bottom of

:01:42. > :01:49.this London League, stumping up just 36% of the costs.

:01:50. > :01:54.More bad news for Chelsea! Let's talk about West Ham. London clubs

:01:54. > :02:00.are quite happy to pay for policing inside the grounds, but not outside,

:02:00. > :02:05.is that sustainable? I don't think so. We for tax avoidance of

:02:05. > :02:08.Starbucks and Amazon and the others, the whole spotlight of corporations

:02:08. > :02:13.paying the appropriate level of tax on the appropriate amount for

:02:13. > :02:19.services such as policing football matches is in sharp relief. The

:02:19. > :02:23.fact that clubs in London on not paying an appropriate about...

:02:23. > :02:27.Boris Johnson say come on, this can't remain. One of the problems

:02:27. > :02:32.is that for a lot of local authorities and police authorities

:02:32. > :02:37.with in London, it is a huge drain on the resources. In Hammersmith

:02:37. > :02:41.and Fulham they have three Premier League clubs. It is quite clear

:02:41. > :02:51.that football clubs are charging spectators huge money, let's make

:02:51. > :02:54.

:02:54. > :02:56.sure they pay for policing. Thank In a moment, we'll look ahead to

:02:56. > :03:00.the big stories that will dominate politics next week with our

:03:00. > :03:03.political panel, but first the news at noon with Maxine Mawhinney.

:03:03. > :03:06.Good afternoon. The Prime Minister has said that

:03:06. > :03:09.three British nationals are now known to have been killed during

:03:09. > :03:12.the hostage crisis at a gas plant in Algeria. David Cameron said

:03:12. > :03:15.three more British nationals and a British resident were also feared

:03:15. > :03:17.dead. Algeria said its special forces ended the stand-off

:03:17. > :03:27.yesterday because Islamist militants were planning to blow up

:03:27. > :03:30.

:03:30. > :03:34.the site. This report from James The four day siege is finally over.

:03:34. > :03:41.These pictures are believed to show one of the first attempts by

:03:41. > :03:45.Algerian forces to end it. Algeria says at least 23 hostages and 32

:03:45. > :03:48.militant hostage takers are dead. These are glimpses of the ordeal

:03:48. > :03:53.suffered by the hostages. They seem to show workers so rendering in

:03:53. > :03:57.front of the kidnappers. responsibility for these deaths

:03:57. > :04:02.lies squarely with the terrorists who launched this vicious and

:04:02. > :04:06.cowardly attack. I would also say that when you're dealing with a

:04:06. > :04:11.terrorist incident on this scale, with up to 30 terrorists, it is

:04:11. > :04:15.very difficult to respond and to get this right in every respect.

:04:15. > :04:20.The crisis began on Wednesday morning when gunmen attacked the

:04:21. > :04:24.desert gas complex, taking hundreds hostage. On Thursday an initial

:04:24. > :04:29.assault by Algerian forces killed militants and captive stock

:04:29. > :04:34.although many other hostages escaped. Yesterday, with 11 Gardner

:04:34. > :04:38.et -- gunmen holed up with seven hostages, the Algerian army stormed

:04:38. > :04:42.the complex. A special British team has been sent to the area to help

:04:42. > :04:46.the surviving and repatriate the dead. Many British hostages have

:04:46. > :04:50.already returned home. These pictures shown on Algerian

:04:50. > :04:54.television are said to be part of the arsenal of weapons used by the

:04:54. > :04:58.militants. This is apparently what one freed hostage saw as he walked

:04:58. > :05:01.past some victims. Another indication of a horrors of the past

:05:01. > :05:05.few days. Tributes have been paid to four

:05:05. > :05:08.climbers who were killed by an avalanche in the Scottish Highlands.

:05:08. > :05:11.A service was held in their memory at a church in Glencoe. The party

:05:11. > :05:15.of six were caught up in the avalanche on Bidean Nam Bian

:05:15. > :05:17.yesterday afternoon. Around 260 flights are to be

:05:17. > :05:23.cancelled at Heathrow and several Eurostar trains between London and

:05:23. > :05:26.Brussels and Paris have also been cancelled. Ice and freezing

:05:26. > :05:36.temperatures are expected across the UK, as well as more snow for

:05:36. > :05:40.the next week. Louise Hubball is in Barton in Cambridgeshire for us now.

:05:40. > :05:46.It has been snowing heavily in Cambridgeshire for around the past

:05:46. > :05:50.hour. Snow and ice are already causing problems on unquoted roads.

:05:50. > :05:53.We are expected significant snowfall here and in the south-east,

:05:53. > :05:58.East and parts of the country, of the North Midlands and possibly

:05:58. > :06:03.into north-east Wales. The advice for motorists is to check your

:06:03. > :06:06.local forecast before travelling and be aware of the icy conditions.

:06:06. > :06:11.Rail and air passengers are also advised to check your services are

:06:11. > :06:15.running before leaving home. Thank you.

:06:15. > :06:21.That's all the news for now - there will be more here on BBC One at

:06:21. > :06:26.Thank you. So, Friday's big speech got cancelled, leaving Fleet

:06:26. > :06:30.Street's finest stranded in Amsterdam. What did they all find

:06:30. > :06:40.to do? We learned this morning that David Cameron is determined to make

:06:40. > :06:45.

:06:45. > :06:50.Europe the big story in The Week From Dr Fox, he has seen the speech,

:06:50. > :06:55.he is pretty happy and he thinks the referendum, if we ever get to

:06:55. > :07:00.that, saying either vote for this package of repatriated powers

:07:00. > :07:04.although no against it, the same as voting out. In-out referendum.

:07:04. > :07:09.is interesting is all the attention this week has been on the Tory

:07:09. > :07:13.position on this, but actually all the polls point to have a

:07:13. > :07:16.convincing Labour majority in the next election. The most interesting

:07:16. > :07:21.thing to look at is what Labour's position is and what they will

:07:21. > :07:25.offer people. What I find curious is that Labour seems so determined

:07:25. > :07:34.to deny people their say on this issue. They are not prepared to

:07:34. > :07:38.commit to a referendum. We got Mr Alexander saying we will not get

:07:38. > :07:42.rid of the referendum Locke. That is the easiest because that only

:07:42. > :07:47.affects powers going from London to Brussels. Under Labour that is

:07:47. > :07:51.unlikely. I am still not sure if he categorically rules out an in-out

:07:52. > :07:56.referendum. He doesn't want one. For Labour Party is in a difficult

:07:56. > :07:58.position. It will look difficult if that the next election they say we

:07:58. > :08:04.don't need to renegotiate the terms of membership and we don't need a

:08:04. > :08:08.referendum. But they are concerned that if Ed Miliband were to become

:08:08. > :08:12.Prime Minister, he would lumber himself with a referendum. Have so

:08:12. > :08:16.we are seeing with this delayed speech by the Prime Minister, it --

:08:17. > :08:21.it is a nightmare once you commit yourself to a referendum. They are

:08:21. > :08:24.persuaded by the Michael Heseltine argument, how can you call a

:08:25. > :08:28.referendum on a negotiation you don't know whether it will take

:08:28. > :08:33.place? If it doesn't take place -- if it does take place, you don't

:08:33. > :08:38.know when or what it will end up with. That is quite difficult.

:08:38. > :08:43.Meanwhile you have a question over the membership of the EU. Kit is a

:08:43. > :08:46.bold thing to say and that is why Dr Fox seemed reasonably happy to

:08:46. > :08:52.say if I can do it, I will offer you this more semi-detached

:08:52. > :08:58.relationship with Europe and if you reject that, we are out. It raises

:08:58. > :09:03.expectations for that renegotiation. I would not do that. I would expect

:09:03. > :09:07.he renegotiate very little, if those renegotiate since happen at

:09:07. > :09:11.all. We have seen some of the extracts of this speech and what

:09:11. > :09:16.struck me about them was how cautious they were. Or he says his

:09:16. > :09:22.we should reform Europe, he doesn't mention renegotiation or specified

:09:22. > :09:26.areas of law he is trying to bring back. It is either my way of a

:09:27. > :09:32.highway. A repatriation or out. He has kept that back. He is holding

:09:32. > :09:38.it back so it has the maximum possible political impact. I don't

:09:38. > :09:44.know how Nick or Isabelle feel, but I suspect that will work. I want to

:09:44. > :09:52.show you this. Mr Cameron's position even makes Taiwanese

:09:52. > :09:59.television. Eurosceptics have long complained about subsidies to the

:09:59. > :10:06.EU. They want an in-out referendum. At the same time, Cameron has

:10:06. > :10:14.strong -- drawn criticism from its junior coalition partner. Meanwhile,

:10:14. > :10:23.Cameron has been flanked by UKIP, which is riding high in the polls

:10:23. > :10:28.and drawn support from Tories. Taiwanese take on British politics!

:10:28. > :10:35.This buys Mr Cameron time. Yes. I am slightly lost for words after

:10:35. > :10:39.that clip! We can't afford these graphics. What I've taken from

:10:39. > :10:43.talking to Tory MPs this week, who have seen these brief extract of

:10:43. > :10:47.the speech, and some of whom have been taken and confidence about

:10:47. > :10:52.what the speech will say, they seem to be fairly happy. There's always

:10:52. > :10:58.going to be a hardcore of 25 or so who are hostile. If he can live

:10:58. > :11:02.with that. Exactly. A Liam Fox is happy with the speech and he wants

:11:02. > :11:05.us to go back to the Common Market. Going back to the Common Market

:11:06. > :11:10.means dismantling Margaret Thatcher's greatest legacy, the

:11:10. > :11:14.single market. The rules of the single market are decided on the

:11:14. > :11:18.basis of qualified majority voting where nobody has a veto. David

:11:18. > :11:25.Cameron will not dismantle VAT and Liam Fox thinks he is going to. You

:11:25. > :11:31.have to have one of the other. Let's move on to plebgate. You had

:11:31. > :11:35.a story of the Sunday Times this morning. For public administration

:11:35. > :11:41.committee is going to have a go at the Cabinet Secretary and it thinks

:11:41. > :11:44.he made a mess of the investigation. That's right. The report published

:11:44. > :11:49.shortly will be extremely uncomfortable reading for Jeremy

:11:49. > :11:55.Heywood and Number Ten. It will be highly critical of the way Number

:11:55. > :11:59.Ten handled the affair. It will raise serious questions about why,

:11:59. > :12:03.when Jeremy Heywood, who was given a role investigating what happened,

:12:03. > :12:10.he admitted he was suspicious that Andrew Mitchell might have been a

:12:10. > :12:14.victim of what he described as a gigantic conspiracy. Why did Number

:12:14. > :12:20.Ten allow Andrew Mitchell to swim in the wind for three weeks? Should

:12:21. > :12:24.week preparing for the return of Mr Mitchell and Mr Fox, Dr Fox?

:12:24. > :12:29.Perfectly conceivable that both will be back before the next

:12:29. > :12:33.election. This is far more of the Jeremy Heywood story. I can't think

:12:33. > :12:38.of the last civil servant in this country who was last talked about

:12:38. > :12:41.so much in public. He divides opinion. Some say he is too

:12:41. > :12:46.influential and some say he is a restraining force on the reformers

:12:46. > :12:50.in government. Let's not forget there's a political decision made

:12:50. > :12:54.in Downing Street. That was that the only way to save Andrew

:12:54. > :12:58.Mitchell was to accuse the police of lying and that was a line they

:12:58. > :13:03.were not prepared to grasp at that stage. They would be now! For a

:13:03. > :13:06.would be willing now. Jeremy Heywood was very lackadaisical and

:13:06. > :13:11.he did not do anything about it. They were not willing to take on

:13:11. > :13:15.the police. Will he required? will probably come through this. He

:13:15. > :13:19.is a very powerful figure. It depends whether the people under

:13:19. > :13:23.him up a pair to knife him. For a couple of months ago he could walk

:13:23. > :13:27.on water. I think he will recover because there's a vacuum of

:13:27. > :13:31.authority in Number Ten and he fills it. The Prime Minister has

:13:31. > :13:35.known him for 20 years because he was private secretary to Norman

:13:35. > :13:40.Lamont when he was a special adviser and he highly rates him.

:13:40. > :13:44.have more snow coming this week. It will bring the country to a halt

:13:44. > :13:49.again! We have the GDP figures for the last quarter of last year which

:13:49. > :13:57.may show we are back in another dip. More good news for the Government!

:13:57. > :14:01.We will cover all of that next week. For today, that's all. Jo Coburn