03/02/2013

:00:39. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The Conservative

:00:43. > :00:47.party is at war this morning over gay marriage. More than half their

:00:47. > :00:50.MPs are expected to vote against it in the Commons on Tuesday. This

:00:50. > :00:56.lunchtime, Tory constituency chairmen will hand in a letter of

:00:56. > :00:58.protest to 10 Downing Street. That's our top story. The Prime

:00:58. > :01:07.Minister described Mali as part of a generational struggle against

:01:07. > :01:09.extremism in North Africa. But is it one Britain's equipped to fight?

:01:09. > :01:11.Foreign Secretary William Hague joins us for the Sunday Interview.

:01:11. > :01:17.Hillsborough, phone hacking, plebgate. Three reasons why the

:01:17. > :01:24.government is right to reform the police? I'll be asking the

:01:24. > :01:28.organisation that represents rank and file officers. With a huge

:01:29. > :01:38.housing shortage, the market is open to abuse. We look at a

:01:39. > :01:39.

:01:39. > :01:42.pioneering scheme to regulate And with me, as always, the best

:01:42. > :01:49.and the brightest political panel in the business. Isabell Oakeshott.

:01:49. > :01:56.Janan Ganesh. And Nick Watt, who will be tweeting more quickly than

:01:57. > :01:59.high-speed trains running through Tory constituencies. So, up to 180

:01:59. > :02:01.Conservative MPs, according to some reports, including several cabinet

:02:01. > :02:05.ministers, are expected to vote against the government's same sex

:02:06. > :02:09.marriage bill on Tuesday. The bill will still pass, with the support

:02:09. > :02:13.of Labour and Liberal Democrats. But what kind of damage will it it

:02:13. > :02:16.inflict on the Conservative party? In a couple of hours, 20 local

:02:16. > :02:23.party chairmen will go to 10 Downing Street to hand in what they

:02:23. > :02:25.are calling a strongly worded letter to the Prime Minister.

:02:25. > :02:35.Including the Education Secretary's constituency party president, who

:02:35. > :02:39.says for some members gay marriage is a step too far.

:02:39. > :02:44.Regretfully, some Tories have resigned. We've seen resignations,

:02:44. > :02:48.I'm President of Surrey Heath Conservative Association and, yes,

:02:48. > :02:52.we have seen a good number of resignations, regretfully. I would

:02:52. > :02:57.encourage people to remain in the party and argue the case from

:02:57. > :03:02.within, but we are losing people and surveys have indicated that we

:03:02. > :03:08.are going to lose voters. Maybe David Cameron thinks is going to

:03:08. > :03:12.pick up more votes from the centre but we question that. Michael Gove

:03:12. > :03:16.constituency president. Nick, we know it get through because the

:03:16. > :03:21.opposition vote, it's enough to do it, plus the Tories are split but

:03:21. > :03:25.how serious a rebellion is this for David Cameron? 200 of his MPs are

:03:25. > :03:29.not going to support him although they are quite entitled to vote as

:03:29. > :03:34.they want because it is a free vote, but you slightly feel it with David

:03:34. > :03:38.Cameron, why is he doing this? It feels like they are obsessed with

:03:38. > :03:43.Tony Blair, and they want to be able to say, we are just as

:03:43. > :03:46.progressive as he was. Also, what did Tony Blair do really well? He

:03:46. > :03:49.would tell the party where they are wrong and take them in a direction

:03:49. > :03:54.they didn't feel comfortable with, the centre ground, and that, you

:03:54. > :03:57.feel, is what David Cameron is doing here, but is not exactly

:03:57. > :04:01.doing it like Tony Blair because he's saying to Conservatives, don't

:04:01. > :04:08.worry, I understand. You have got to be tougher to lead something

:04:08. > :04:15.like this all the when Tony Blair did this, duffed up his own party,

:04:15. > :04:19.he still carried them with him. Cameron is not doing that.

:04:19. > :04:24.numbers we ever heard about, 180 who will vote against this measure,

:04:24. > :04:27.is a far smaller number than the number who will support the

:04:28. > :04:32.proposals but will go through the lobby dealing are really resentful

:04:32. > :04:38.and unhappy about it. Because they have been put at odds with their

:04:39. > :04:45.own constituents. And they are really, really fed up about it.

:04:45. > :04:49.Tories vote against it, it will be about 300 or so, so there would be

:04:49. > :04:53.more? There is a danger of the majority of Tory MPs will vote

:04:53. > :04:57.against this. Quite possibly and the one good grievance they do have

:04:57. > :05:03.is this was not in the Tory manifesto, whereas, in cent

:05:03. > :05:08.devising marriage and a tax system was in the manifesto also that is

:05:08. > :05:13.ultimately a procedural grievance, not based in principle, and...

:05:13. > :05:16.there a grievance based on faith? You never made this promise and

:05:16. > :05:19.you're giving it. It's not a principle, had it been in the

:05:19. > :05:24.manifesto, it would have changed their views. The majority of public

:05:24. > :05:27.support, overwhelming in the younger generation, who are the

:05:27. > :05:32.Tories traditionally struggle with and my hunch is, when it gets

:05:32. > :05:36.through this week, thanks to Labour and Lib Dem support can it will be

:05:36. > :05:39.absorbed into the national culture immediately. Within a few months,

:05:39. > :05:42.everybody will know someone who knows someone who knows someone in

:05:42. > :05:47.a same-sex marriage and this time next year, we will wonder what the

:05:47. > :05:50.fuss is about. It is damaging on a ground level because of Tory

:05:50. > :05:57.activists are alienated which has consequences for the next election,

:05:57. > :06:03.but I think it's a winner for the prime minister. It's like smoking

:06:03. > :06:08.on aircraft. To suggest today you could smoke on an aircraft, people

:06:08. > :06:13.would think you were bonkers. What does it tell you about party

:06:13. > :06:19.management? It seems to be cack- handed. He could have introduced

:06:19. > :06:23.gay marriage and the married tax allowance as one, to help unite his

:06:23. > :06:28.party. It would have caused problems with the Lib Dems who are

:06:28. > :06:32.very opposed to any type of marriage tax breaks. The Lib Dems

:06:32. > :06:37.couldn't have made such a song and dance about it had they been linked.

:06:37. > :06:41.I think the impact on Cameron will be longer lasting than you suggest.

:06:41. > :06:46.The resentment amongst his backbenchers, having been put in a

:06:46. > :06:51.difficult position about it. Social change it feels painful for

:06:51. > :06:55.Conservatives at the time that people move on. The problem of

:06:55. > :06:58.introducing recognition of tax in marriage, the one person who

:06:58. > :07:02.doesn't feel comfortable about that is George Osborne. Who was the most

:07:02. > :07:09.liberal MP in the country, George Osborne. He doesn't feel

:07:09. > :07:12.comfortable about it. He needs all the help he can get at the moment.

:07:12. > :07:16.The other point is, parliament overwhelmingly supports equal

:07:16. > :07:20.marriage. Parliament does not overwhelmingly support recognising

:07:20. > :07:27.marriage and a tax system. The Conservative Party may but

:07:27. > :07:29.government doesn't. We will monitor the fall-out as the week goes on.

:07:29. > :07:33.Earlier this morning, Tony Blair was asked about assisting the

:07:33. > :07:36.French with the conflict in Mali. Remember him? Britain has sent over

:07:36. > :07:41.300 troops to help train local soldiers, but says it won't be

:07:41. > :07:43.putting combat troops on the ground. Well, this morning Mr Blair backed

:07:43. > :07:51.that action, saying what David Cameron was doing was difficult but

:07:51. > :07:55.necessary. We always want in the West to go in and go out and think

:07:55. > :08:00.there is a clean result. It's not going to happen like that, we now

:08:00. > :08:05.know that. It's going to be long, difficult, messy. If you don't

:08:05. > :08:09.intervene, and you just let it happen, it's also going to be long

:08:09. > :08:13.and difficult and messy, and possibly a lot worse, so it's a

:08:13. > :08:16.very difficult decision. I found these decisions are immensely

:08:16. > :08:19.difficult when I was in government, and I don't envy David Cameron

:08:19. > :08:23.having to take the decision now, but I think he's essentially

:08:23. > :08:28.writing what he is saying. You have got to take a view that is a long-

:08:28. > :08:34.term view, and be prepared to engage over it. The former prime

:08:34. > :08:39.minister. Well, joining me now from Glasgow. Mr Murphy, good morning.

:08:39. > :08:42.You heard Tony Blair backing David Cameron this morning on Mali,

:08:42. > :08:47.calling it a generational struggle and said we need to be there for

:08:47. > :08:50.the long haul. Do you agree? support the mission and the

:08:50. > :08:54.international effort while scrutinising the decisions the

:08:54. > :08:59.Government is taking. We can't allow Mali to become a failed state,

:08:59. > :09:04.to become like Afghanistan, a safe haven for terrorism and terrorists,

:09:04. > :09:09.so it's right that the European Union, the UN, the UK, the French

:09:09. > :09:16.are involved in the way that we are, but there are concerns, of course.

:09:16. > :09:22.These borders around Mali are porous, in that Timbuktu, Al-Qaeda

:09:22. > :09:25.melted away but they have not melt away because the borders. Not

:09:25. > :09:32.boarders in any sense we would recognise, drawn up with a ruler,

:09:32. > :09:36.in Paris, over 100 years with no proper controls. This will take a

:09:36. > :09:40.regional effort. In principle, you're in favour? Your critical of

:09:40. > :09:46.certain things but overall, you agree. Defence spending is

:09:46. > :09:51.currently enduring. An 8% cut in real terms for such a big cut.

:09:51. > :09:59.Should defence spending rise again after 2015, when you might be in

:09:59. > :10:05.power? Just over the Mali, there's worried about train is being

:10:05. > :10:08.protected. Let's move on to defence spending. It's pretty clear that

:10:08. > :10:15.the Conservatives promised a bigger budget, a bigger army, a bigger

:10:15. > :10:17.Navy and are doing the opposite while in power. We are going

:10:17. > :10:20.through a strategic defence review and we have set out our priorities

:10:20. > :10:27.in our manifesto. We've already talked about the need for

:10:27. > :10:32.procurement, a tiny budget, a huge number of ideas. Will it defence

:10:32. > :10:35.spending rise and are you? I can't say this borrowed from election.

:10:35. > :10:39.Some of your viewers will have noticed the prime minister in

:10:39. > :10:43.Algeria on Wednesday night made a promise defence spending would

:10:43. > :10:48.increase. By Thursday morning, his government could not stick to the

:10:48. > :10:50.promise. One the Government in power had who have access to

:10:50. > :10:54.finance an intelligence, make a promise to last 12 hours, it's

:10:54. > :10:57.difficult for the opposition to make a promise. It's interesting,

:10:57. > :11:03.when I always ask you about this, you simply attacked the Government

:11:03. > :11:09.rather than tell me what your policy has. That's what you would

:11:09. > :11:13.expect. Has the Government got the priorities rights in its defence

:11:13. > :11:19.spending? What would you do now different? There is a real worry

:11:19. > :11:27.they are making some cuts which it makes sense, for example, special

:11:27. > :11:31.forces support. That has been denied. Let's see. Those forces

:11:31. > :11:34.should remain secret and the Government should not used the

:11:34. > :11:41.privacy of special forces operation to camouflage undeclared cuts

:11:41. > :11:45.against special forces. Those sorts of cards would be self-defeating. -

:11:45. > :11:49.- cuts. That doesn't make sense. In terms of Al approach, what the

:11:49. > :11:54.Government has to get on top of, and both parties have to get on top

:11:54. > :11:58.of, beleaguered parties and government, regardless of Labour

:11:58. > :12:02.and Conservative, the massive issue of procurement. The fact is, the

:12:02. > :12:06.projects take too long, they are not on budget, on time, and they

:12:06. > :12:11.take so long, as they are going along, ministers come along and say,

:12:11. > :12:19.why don't we add another capability on to that ship, that aeroplane? We

:12:19. > :12:23.need to get on top of that. Both Labour and Conservative procurement

:12:23. > :12:27.records are appalling. Let's move on to Europe. You told me of the

:12:27. > :12:32.Labour conference last year, I think at some point there should be

:12:32. > :12:37.an in-out referendum on the European Union. You must be happy

:12:37. > :12:40.that David Cameron agrees with you? Not at all. I don't think David

:12:40. > :12:45.Cameron was responding to anything I was saying of the Labour Party

:12:45. > :12:51.conference. I have been clear, in politics you can't rule these

:12:51. > :12:58.things out. You said, I think there should be an in-out referendum.

:12:58. > :13:03.can't rule it out in the future and it would be foolish to say that.

:13:03. > :13:07.Murphy, you didn't say to me, you never say never, you can't rule it

:13:07. > :13:12.out. You said, I think at some point, there should be an in-out

:13:12. > :13:15.referendum. We can't rule it out, at some point, they could be an

:13:15. > :13:20.inept referendum in the Labour Party. You said there should be one.

:13:20. > :13:23.The situation has changed the last couple of months, with the actions

:13:23. > :13:33.of the Prime Minister. He has promised a referendum, four years'

:13:33. > :13:36.time, on a proposal which is as yet unclear. What he has done it, his

:13:36. > :13:39.great enormous uncertainty for the country in the next four years in

:13:39. > :13:46.return for a false sense of security for himself as Tory party

:13:46. > :13:51.leader. Mr Murphy, and you buy much for joining us. -- thank you very

:13:51. > :13:54.much for joining us. When David Cameron was campaigning for the

:13:54. > :13:57.Conservative Party leadership in 2005, he famously described himself

:13:57. > :13:59.as the heir to Blair. Three years into government and his foreign

:13:59. > :14:09.policy is indeed looking distinctly Blairite. But it wasn't always

:14:09. > :14:17.

:14:17. > :14:24.Foreign policy in the Blair years were dominated by war. The new

:14:24. > :14:28.government promised to prioritise trade and commercial interests. Yet

:14:28. > :14:33.in 2011, Britain played a leading role in military intervention in

:14:33. > :14:38.Libya which culminated in the Death of Colonel Gaddafi. Now British

:14:38. > :14:42.forces are deployed in the third deployment under this government,

:14:42. > :14:48.this time in the African country of Mali. The Prime Minister said the

:14:48. > :14:52.troops would be in the tens but last week we learned 330 members of

:14:52. > :14:57.the Armed Forces are now in action supporting France's campaign

:14:57. > :15:00.preventing Islamist rebels taking over Mali. With the defence budget

:15:01. > :15:04.shrinking by 8% over this Parliament in real terms, can

:15:04. > :15:07.Britain afford to be so committed overseas?

:15:07. > :15:17.The Foreign Secretary William Hague joins me now for the Sunday

:15:17. > :15:21.

:15:21. > :15:24.William Hague, you came to power wanton to refashion foreign policy,

:15:24. > :15:29.making it more focused on commercial aspects, that is what

:15:29. > :15:34.the Prime Minister told us. Now the Prime Minister says we are in a

:15:34. > :15:40.generational struggle. What changed and did you see it coming? We are

:15:40. > :15:45.both. Are offering a huge and much greater effort in promoting British

:15:45. > :15:51.exports. That goes on, what of the events in Mali or Afghanistan, that

:15:51. > :15:55.is a major part of our foreign policy. But of course, the work to

:15:55. > :16:00.counter terrorism goes on. Crisis spring up in parts of the world

:16:00. > :16:03.that we have to deal with. Britain has a responsibility to deal with

:16:03. > :16:07.that. I think we have learned a lot from what happened over the last

:16:07. > :16:12.decade because our prime focus is on getting countries within the

:16:12. > :16:16.region itself, this case of West African countries, there have their

:16:16. > :16:20.forces trained and equipped to do the military job in Mali and make

:16:20. > :16:25.sure there is a political presence at the same time. Let's just have a

:16:25. > :16:31.look at what the Prime Minister said. He said, we are in the midst

:16:31. > :16:34.of a generational struggle, we must beat them militarily, we must close

:16:34. > :16:38.down the and governed space in which they thrive. It is straight

:16:38. > :16:43.from the Tony Blair Book of soundbites and indeed Mr Blair back

:16:43. > :16:48.to this morning. I thought your policy was meant to be different?

:16:48. > :16:54.Are we supported them going into Afghanistan and what happened in

:16:54. > :17:00.Iraq. We have learned about making sure that wherever possible, it is

:17:00. > :17:06.not Western armies on the ground in Africa. The French have acted quite

:17:06. > :17:11.correctly in an emergency. Sir it is Western armies? Not in the

:17:11. > :17:15.medium to long term. Think Somalia, not think Afghanistan. What we are

:17:15. > :17:20.doing well and smiler, it does not get a lot of attention because it

:17:20. > :17:24.is going well, we have a legitimate government, we have African forces

:17:24. > :17:28.doing the fighting and we give the diplomatic and humanitarian support.

:17:28. > :17:34.That is the model to think about in Mali as well. That requires

:17:34. > :17:39.training. Most of the people you have Talkback, the 330, will be

:17:39. > :17:44.involved in training Africans to do the fighting -- most of the people

:17:44. > :17:49.you have talked about. President Obama said a decade of war is

:17:49. > :17:54.ending. You say the world will be a more dangerous place over the next

:17:54. > :17:58.decade or two than the last decade or two. You cannot both be right.

:17:58. > :18:03.You must think the President is wrong. The President is talking

:18:03. > :18:10.about American forces scaling back from Iraq and they are scaling down

:18:10. > :18:16.in Afghanistan. So while we. We are reducing from 9,000 to 5,000.

:18:16. > :18:19.decade of war ending or do we move on to more wars? The reason I say

:18:19. > :18:23.the world as a more dangerous place is because if you look at the

:18:23. > :18:26.Iranian nuclear situation, if you look at Syria, if you look at it

:18:26. > :18:32.being crunch time for the Middle East peace process which I think it

:18:32. > :18:35.is, and some of these conflicts in Africa, yes, there are a whole

:18:35. > :18:41.range of conflict us but that does not mean we respond to them all in

:18:42. > :18:45.the same way. I cannot stress this too strongly. Wherever we can make

:18:45. > :18:49.sure it is countries in that region that are taking on their own

:18:49. > :18:53.responsibilities, we will do that. That is what we are doing in East

:18:53. > :18:57.Africa and West Africa. The world is always a dangerous place. I

:18:57. > :19:02.cannot think of a time in my lifetime and the world has not been

:19:02. > :19:06.a dangerous place. In most of my life time we had nuclear

:19:07. > :19:12.destruction hanging over us. Are you really saying that the world is

:19:12. > :19:16.about to become more dangerous than the last two decade which saw 9/11,

:19:16. > :19:23.two major wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, more dangerous than that?

:19:23. > :19:30.yes, I do think that. Think about the Cold War, the 1990s, before

:19:30. > :19:36.9/11, people thought that the world had changed permanently. Countries

:19:36. > :19:42.were all going to be free and democratic. We have not reached the

:19:42. > :19:46.end of history. And we are in a situation where there are multiple

:19:46. > :19:53.unstable situations. That is why the foreign policy has been busier

:19:53. > :19:57.in the last couple of years. It does not mean you respond to every

:19:57. > :20:02.situation by deploying the British Army. But in Mali you have. The

:20:02. > :20:07.Prime Minister said a British troop deployment would be in the tens to

:20:07. > :20:12.begin with. It is already in the hundreds. Why? And could it go

:20:12. > :20:17.higher? Because they are training other people so we are under less

:20:17. > :20:24.pressure. He said tens would do that. Are he was talking about the

:20:24. > :20:28.EU training mission which would supply a 40 people. First of all,

:20:28. > :20:32.there are no combat troops in this deployment and we have no plans to

:20:32. > :20:36.send combat troops. Can you give a commitment that there will never be

:20:36. > :20:42.British combat troops in Mali? cannot foresee that situation but I

:20:42. > :20:46.can absolutely say we have no plans or current intention to do that.

:20:46. > :20:55.200 of the 330 are to train the African forces. Others are to make

:20:55. > :20:59.it possible to -- for our transport aircraft to be there. This is to

:21:00. > :21:04.support the French troops. At just to finish up in Mali, what evidence

:21:04. > :21:09.do you have that the jihadist anywhere represent a threat to

:21:09. > :21:15.Britain? They represent a threat to the region and we have seen that in

:21:15. > :21:20.the Algerian hostage crisis. There were six British people killed in

:21:20. > :21:26.Algeria. We have people all over the world who are always in danger.

:21:26. > :21:31.Do these jihadists... The fact is you do not have a shred of evidence

:21:31. > :21:35.that these people have a threat to Britain. I cannot give you all the

:21:35. > :21:40.evidence but I would say I partly agree with your questioned that a

:21:40. > :21:44.greater threat to Britain, to the British homeland, if you like, has

:21:44. > :21:48.come from terrorist operations in Somalia, Pakistan or Afghanistan.

:21:48. > :21:52.Which is what your intelligence services are briefing of the record

:21:52. > :21:57.to people like me. If we do not want what is happening in the Sahel

:21:57. > :22:03.to grow. Somalia has had 20 years of being a failed state. The Afghan

:22:03. > :22:08.conflict has gone on since 9/11. We would be neglecting our duty, if we

:22:08. > :22:12.let the Sahel region drift said that in 10 years' time it was a

:22:12. > :22:16.great threat. Let's turn to defence spending. If as the Prime Minister

:22:16. > :22:20.says we are in the middle of a generational struggle, and you have

:22:20. > :22:25.just said the next -- the next two decades would be more dangerous

:22:25. > :22:31.than the last two, why on earth are you cutting defence spending?

:22:31. > :22:38.have had to balance the budget in defence. Many procurement projects

:22:38. > :22:43.which could not be afforded, there has been a reduction of seven or 8%.

:22:43. > :22:47.In real terms. That is less than many government departments. We

:22:47. > :22:50.will be the 4th biggest military spender in the world. We are

:22:50. > :22:55.investing in new equipment, particularly his surface ships and

:22:55. > :23:02.submarines. Look out what you're doing to the British Army. You say

:23:02. > :23:08.procurement but this is manpower. Up with the Americans, the finest

:23:08. > :23:12.trained army in the world and you are slashing it by overt 20 or 30 %.

:23:13. > :23:17.And what you do not have on your chart is what happens to the

:23:17. > :23:22.reserve forces which will be greatly increased. If the world is

:23:22. > :23:27.so dangerous, you ring fenced international aid, you ring fenced

:23:27. > :23:31.health, you are ring-fencing now education as well, if the world is

:23:31. > :23:35.as dangerous as you say it is, people will be amazed that you have

:23:35. > :23:41.not also a ring-fenced defence. International Aid is part of

:23:41. > :23:45.dealing with these issues. They are not military only problems. They

:23:45. > :23:49.are politically economic development problems. We have had

:23:49. > :23:55.to get the defence budget into balance. Other countries are doing

:23:55. > :24:00.the same. We will remain the 4th biggest military spender in the

:24:00. > :24:04.world. We remain able to project military force. We will be one of

:24:05. > :24:08.only two European countries along with France able to do that, even

:24:08. > :24:13.after the changes in defence. remember interviewing you in

:24:13. > :24:17.opposition, you and the other Tories are used to lamb asked Tony

:24:17. > :24:22.Blair for fighting three wars on peacetime defence budgets. Now you

:24:22. > :24:27.are into a third war of your own and you on an even smaller defence

:24:27. > :24:33.budget than he was. For I do not recall saying that defence would be

:24:33. > :24:38.immune to the reductions. You attacked him for not spending

:24:38. > :24:42.enough. We asked for better equipment and work is being done to

:24:42. > :24:45.make sure the troops in Afghanistan have the equipment they need. They

:24:45. > :24:51.are much happier with the equipment than they were five or six years

:24:51. > :24:54.ago. That work has been done and people should not underestimate the

:24:54. > :24:58.British defence budget and what Armed Forces will remain capable of

:24:58. > :25:05.doing. Off on what they have to do is support other people, trying

:25:05. > :25:11.other people, not necessarily do that. Don't you think the voters

:25:11. > :25:16.are fed up with politicians like yourself deploying our forces into

:25:16. > :25:20.war zones and the theatre of conflict, politicians whose

:25:20. > :25:25.generations have never had to face a bullet themselves, and you

:25:25. > :25:29.constantly cut your budgets as you do so? We are reducing our forces

:25:29. > :25:32.in Afghanistan and ending their combat role. We did what we did in

:25:32. > :25:37.Libya without deploying British forces on the ground. And

:25:37. > :25:41.mercifully, without the loss of a single British life in action. And

:25:41. > :25:45.we are doing what we are now doing in Mali to help African forces do

:25:45. > :25:50.the necessary work on the ground. That does not put in the British

:25:50. > :25:54.Army or British soldiers and harm's way and into conflict unnecessarily,

:25:54. > :25:59.it is avoiding doing so where have we can. Don't you think it is risky

:25:59. > :26:03.for British troops to be in Mali? lot of them are not going to Mali,

:26:04. > :26:09.just to explain this again, a lot of them will be engaged in training

:26:09. > :26:12.African forces, some of that is outside Mali. Some of those are

:26:13. > :26:18.servicing and supporting aircraft not based in Mali. These are not

:26:18. > :26:22.combat troops going to Mali. Let's me come on to Europe. Have

:26:22. > :26:32.your views changed on the European Union since he became Foreign

:26:32. > :26:33.

:26:33. > :26:38.Secretary, since you're days in the Tory party? Not necessarily. I

:26:38. > :26:42.strongly support what the Prime Minister set out in his speech.

:26:42. > :26:47.am sure you did because you saw the draft in advance, probably helped

:26:47. > :26:51.him write it! What do you say to the Tory backbenchers who say you

:26:51. > :26:55.have gone native in the Foreign Office, you have become less

:26:55. > :27:00.eurosceptic while they have been going in the opposite direction?

:27:00. > :27:05.have introduced the referendum lock already that any further transfer

:27:05. > :27:09.of powers to the EU requires a referendum, we have got Britain out

:27:09. > :27:15.of the liability for the eurozone bail out, the last government let

:27:15. > :27:19.us into that. I have vetoed the creation of a European military

:27:19. > :27:26.operational headquarters. That might have been useful for Marley.

:27:26. > :27:31.We are not short of headquarters! We are doing what we set out to do.

:27:31. > :27:35.I spoke to the Conservative MPs about Europe and it was the most

:27:35. > :27:40.united, it was a meeting of Conservative MPs most in agreement

:27:40. > :27:45.with Europe that I have addressed in 15 years of addressing

:27:45. > :27:50.Conservative MPs on Europe. A lot of the Conservative MPs say that

:27:50. > :27:53.current terms of membership are unacceptable and that if we cannot

:27:53. > :27:59.get a major change through the repatriation your government is

:27:59. > :28:07.aiming for, they would rather leave. Do you take that view? The we want

:28:07. > :28:12.a new settlement. Would you leave? We will use our judgment at the

:28:12. > :28:15.time of a referendum. We intend to get a new settlement on the

:28:15. > :28:19.principles that the Prime Minister set out and then put that to the

:28:19. > :28:23.British people, able to argue that we have that new settlement and on

:28:23. > :28:30.that basis we will stay in the European Union. That is our

:28:30. > :28:33.intention. Let me show you what you said in October 2011. You said an

:28:33. > :28:37.in out referendum would create additional economic uncertainty in

:28:37. > :28:42.this country at a difficult time. Just over a year later we are still

:28:42. > :28:48.in difficult times. And you have just created four years of

:28:48. > :28:51.uncertainty. Actually, I do not think we have. The in out

:28:51. > :28:57.referendum now would be the wrong thing to do. Choosing between our

:28:57. > :29:00.membership of the EU as it stands today and leaving the European

:29:00. > :29:03.Union would be the wrong thing to do. Rather than months of

:29:03. > :29:09.uncertainty, we will have four years. At least if you had it now

:29:09. > :29:12.we would get rid of the uncertainty. This debate will not go away.

:29:12. > :29:16.would if you had the referendum. That would be the wrong question at

:29:16. > :29:20.the wrong time. The right question at the right time is between an

:29:20. > :29:24.improved relationship between Britain and the EU or leaving. This

:29:24. > :29:28.is the realistic timetable on which to habit and incidentally, as we

:29:28. > :29:33.just saw from your interview with Jim Murphy, there will be much more

:29:33. > :29:40.uncertainty under Labour's proposals. They will not rule out

:29:40. > :29:43.doing it themselves. A poll supports same-sex marriage. Are you

:29:43. > :29:53.disappointed that so many in your party are out of tune with modern

:29:53. > :29:57.

:29:57. > :30:05.It is for them to make their own decision. When did you change your

:30:05. > :30:10.mind on this? This is a new issue. When did you become in favour of

:30:10. > :30:15.it? The last couple of years, it's here in the Western world, it's an

:30:15. > :30:19.issue in France, the USA. If we were not debating it now, it would

:30:19. > :30:23.be a big issue in the next general election and we would all have to

:30:23. > :30:28.say where we stood. You are a recent convert to gay marriage?

:30:28. > :30:31.Times have changed, civil partnerships came in. We had a good

:30:31. > :30:35.discussion about it and within a remarkably short pier at a time,

:30:35. > :30:40.they become accepted for that I think the same will happen with

:30:40. > :30:45.this and so, I look at three things also is it right in principle? I

:30:45. > :30:51.think it is. Marriage is an institution, very positive. We

:30:51. > :30:55.shouldn't deny it to people. Is there sufficient public consent for

:30:55. > :30:59.it to be a law? Yes, there is. Is there sufficient protection for

:30:59. > :31:04.those who disagree with it for their own reasons of religious

:31:04. > :31:10.principle? Yes, there is. Churches and faith groups are don't want to

:31:10. > :31:14.have same-sex marriages, don't have What do you say to the growing band

:31:14. > :31:19.of Tory backbenchers who want a job swap between you and the

:31:19. > :31:24.Chancellor? We will not be having a job swap. The Prime Minister would

:31:24. > :31:33.tell you that. Are there will be no such thing. The Chancellor is doing

:31:33. > :31:38.a great job. What would you like to do as a last great job in politics?

:31:38. > :31:43.I don't want to be a politician in my sixties and I'm 51 now. I came

:31:43. > :31:47.back to support David Cameron and do this job, so would always been

:31:47. > :31:52.my intention and his intention but I would be Foreign Secretary. We

:31:52. > :31:56.haven't set a time limit on it. William Hague, thank you for being

:31:56. > :31:58.with us. They are known as the party of law and order. But over

:31:58. > :32:00.the past three years, this Conservative-led government has

:32:01. > :32:03.clashed repeatedly with the police over its ambitious plans to reform

:32:03. > :32:09.the force in England and Wales and change officers' terms and

:32:09. > :32:12.conditions. The relationship reached a new low over what did or

:32:12. > :32:15.didn't happen when the former Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell tried to ride

:32:15. > :32:18.his bicycle through the Downing Street gates. In a moment I'll be

:32:18. > :32:28.talking to the the Police Federation, the organisation that

:32:28. > :32:33.

:32:33. > :32:36.represents rank and file officers. The Conservative side of this

:32:36. > :32:41.Government had a mission on election to reform the police, and

:32:41. > :32:43.it has done so on an unprecendented scale. Against a backdrop of budget

:32:44. > :32:46.cuts, it has restructured organisations. It has looked at pay

:32:46. > :32:50.and conditions and pensions, and it has radically changed

:32:50. > :32:57.accountability. And unlike attempts in the past, it seems to be getting

:32:57. > :33:01.it's way. This government deserves huge credit for driving through a

:33:01. > :33:07.coherent package of police reform that none of its predecessors were

:33:07. > :33:12.able to do. That is making the police more accountable, police

:33:12. > :33:15.commissioners, giving them a realistic budgets, they had Budget

:33:15. > :33:19.increases year on year for decades, and for dealing with their

:33:19. > :33:25.workforce, eliminating practices and making police employment more

:33:25. > :33:29.flexible. All of that employment work was done by Tom Winsor, who

:33:29. > :33:31.insists, if followed, most officers will be better off. But he was

:33:31. > :33:36.uncomporomising on those unfit for frontline duties and recommended

:33:36. > :33:46.pay reflect responsibilities. The Home Secretary has acted on his

:33:46. > :33:48.

:33:48. > :33:50.pension suggestions and personal None of this has gone down well

:33:50. > :33:58.with Police Federation who have made their feelings known in no

:33:58. > :34:02.uncertain terms. The Police Federation have lost one

:34:02. > :34:10.crucial part of their argument. They said spending cuts would lead

:34:10. > :34:14.to more crime. Crime has fallen. It is difficult, as a minister, to

:34:14. > :34:19.take the Police Federation to seriously after that. All police

:34:19. > :34:22.officers whatever rank, understand are the only get legitimacy to

:34:22. > :34:29.public trust and that has been undermined by a number of cases.

:34:29. > :34:33.Jailed this week, this woman for selling information to a newspaper.

:34:33. > :34:38.Simon Haward, sacked after the death of Ian Tomlinson during the

:34:38. > :34:45.G20 riots. The long wait for the Hillsborough inquiry to get up the

:34:45. > :34:50.real truth. Which pointed the finger at police behaviour. And the

:34:50. > :34:55.incident outside Downing Street. Did he or didn't he? It just raises

:34:55. > :34:58.questions. The IPCC see, headed criticised by the Home Affairs

:34:58. > :35:03.Select Committee, whose chairman believes all of this does have an

:35:03. > :35:08.effect. When you have big picture issues like Hillsborough, Jimmy

:35:08. > :35:13.Savile, Andrew Mitchell, this is in a sense, what poisons relations and

:35:13. > :35:17.I think there is a loss of confidence but also a loss of

:35:17. > :35:21.confidence in the Government and the structures of government.

:35:21. > :35:25.shows no signs of improving with the arrest of four people, three of

:35:25. > :35:28.them officers, as part of Operation Alice. The investigation into the

:35:28. > :35:35.row over Andrew Mitchel's exit from Downing Street. An affair that

:35:35. > :35:38.tarnished government but is also I'm joined now by Steve White, Vice

:35:38. > :35:44.Chairman of the Police Federation, which represents police officers in

:35:44. > :35:48.England and Wales. In recent years, the police have been rocked by

:35:48. > :35:51.scandal and scandal. The death of Ian Tomlinson, phone hacking

:35:51. > :35:55.allowed to proliferate because some of the police were in the pockets

:35:55. > :35:59.of News International, the lies and cover-ups of Hillsborough, an

:36:00. > :36:04.officer jailed for 15 months on Friday trying to sell a story to a

:36:04. > :36:08.tabloid. Do you accept the police are in a crisis which is damaging

:36:08. > :36:13.publish -- public confidence? we're going through a bit of a

:36:13. > :36:17.tough time. There's no doubt about that. The underlying support that

:36:17. > :36:21.the public give the police is still there. I think it will remain.

:36:21. > :36:26.Clearly, they have been mistakes in the past we need to address.

:36:26. > :36:30.there is Plebgate, four arrests in relation to the incident. Did you

:36:30. > :36:36.think the British police could be implicated and accused of a

:36:36. > :36:40.conspiracy to remove a government minister? It's unfortunate people

:36:40. > :36:43.abused those terms. The inquiry into Plebgate is ongoing. It would

:36:43. > :36:47.not be appropriate for me to comment into much detail because I

:36:47. > :36:53.don't know what happened. police will not come out well from

:36:53. > :36:58.this. We will have to wait and see. Many people think these events make

:36:58. > :37:04.the case for police reform compelling. Yet you have set your

:37:04. > :37:09.face against it. Why? I would like to know why people think we have

:37:09. > :37:12.set our face against a double that it's not the case. I've been a

:37:12. > :37:16.police officer for over 25 years and during those 25 years, I had

:37:16. > :37:20.seen the way the police operate in terms of pay and conditions,

:37:20. > :37:24.defences and offences we have to deal with, and how we go about our

:37:24. > :37:29.daily duties will sub it has changed beyond recognition and it's

:37:29. > :37:35.right it is changed and we have played a part in that. He said that

:37:35. > :37:38.the reforms the home secretary is trying to put through our meaning

:37:38. > :37:46.that we on the precipice of destroying the police service.

:37:46. > :37:51.would have to say, a lot of problems came through the reports

:37:51. > :37:57.from a Tom Winsor of. It's not necessary change in the way we are

:37:57. > :38:01.going to do our work. It changes pay and conditions to the detriment

:38:01. > :38:04.of officers. If you are taught me a wholesale reform to make us more

:38:04. > :38:09.responsive to our communities, absolutely, we are behind that, but

:38:09. > :38:15.we disagree on the route in relation to the reports, which we

:38:15. > :38:21.think has been unwise. Police pay is currently linked to the years

:38:21. > :38:23.served, not the quality of the job done. Tom Winsor suggests paying

:38:23. > :38:28.officers for their skills, especially those on the front line

:38:28. > :38:33.who have the most dangerous jobs. It's interesting to use that

:38:33. > :38:38.analogy in terms of experience and skills because Tom Winsor has also

:38:38. > :38:41.said that you cut the starting pay of a police constable by �4,000.

:38:41. > :38:47.They are going to be on the front line. In terms of putting value

:38:47. > :38:51.into what we do, we question whether that is actually the case.

:38:51. > :38:55.You're still going to get over time, one of the best pensions, get paid

:38:55. > :39:00.more than other emergency services, you may not like the reforms but

:39:00. > :39:05.they are hardly destroying the police service. The important thing

:39:05. > :39:10.is an hour service to the bring to the public. We want to be listened

:39:10. > :39:15.to. Increasing police officers' pension contributions up to in

:39:16. > :39:20.excess of 13%, which is the most out of any public sector scheme, a

:39:20. > :39:26.huge amount, at the same time we have had a two-year public sector

:39:26. > :39:29.pay freeze. We accept and have to play our part. They have been

:39:29. > :39:34.freeze is around incremental pay progression for police officers and

:39:34. > :39:41.some officers have taken a pay cut. All right. Let me bring you back to

:39:41. > :39:46.Plebgate. Do you regret the Federation news that incident as

:39:46. > :39:50.part of a campaign against these reforms? The vice-chairman of

:39:50. > :39:55.England and Wales, there are 43 separate branches around the

:39:55. > :39:59.country, all of whom have responsibilities to their

:39:59. > :40:06.membership and sometimes we have disagreements. So do you regret

:40:06. > :40:13.police officers wearing a PC pleb T-shirts? You demanded Andrew

:40:13. > :40:18.Mitchell's resignation. I didn't. Not you, personally. The federation.

:40:18. > :40:21.Dark arts have been used to destroy him. Don't you feel it's time to

:40:21. > :40:24.apologise? I would like to make it clear, the National Police

:40:24. > :40:30.Federation accepted Andrew Mitchell's apology and we wanted to

:40:30. > :40:33.move on. The fact of the matter is... There's a number of police

:40:33. > :40:38.federations and the West Midlands who felt there were questions to

:40:38. > :40:46.answer. The chairman of the Met Police Federation, the biggest one,

:40:46. > :40:49.encourage people to kill Mr Mitchell's in box with complaints.

:40:49. > :40:54.Your federation organised a campaign against him are. And it's

:40:54. > :40:59.now backfired. Is it not time for the preparation to apologise to Mr

:40:59. > :41:04.Mitchell? I disagree with you, Andrew. That's not the case. The

:41:04. > :41:08.clue is in the name for that we are a federation. Do you not condemn

:41:08. > :41:11.those parts of the Federation wearing the PC pleb T-shirts, those

:41:11. > :41:16.who demanded his resignation without knowing the facts, those

:41:16. > :41:20.who may have conspired to help get rid of him? Do you condemn it?

:41:20. > :41:25.a matter for the individual officers who wore the T-shirts, I'm

:41:25. > :41:30.not here to account for it. What is your view? So they can do what they

:41:30. > :41:35.want? Nationally, we accepted Andrew Mitchell's apology, we

:41:35. > :41:39.wanted to move on and maintain our relationship. You are backtracking.

:41:39. > :41:43.I'm not. A few months ago, you would have been calling for his

:41:43. > :41:45.resignation. I had never called for his resignation. Thank you. It's

:41:45. > :41:49.approaching 11.40am. You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:41:49. > :41:51.Coming up in just over 20 minutes: I'll be looking at the week ahead

:41:51. > :42:01.with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics across

:42:01. > :42:12.

:42:12. > :42:17.Welcome to us. Later we will be London the Conservative MP Mick

:42:17. > :42:22.Maguire and Labour's Heidi Alexander. Welcome to you both.

:42:22. > :42:26.Hard not to start over hospitals and south-east London. The Health

:42:26. > :42:29.Secretary has decided to go ahead with most of the administrators

:42:29. > :42:33.recommendations for sorting out the south London health care trust

:42:33. > :42:36.which has been used in many millions of pounds which means

:42:36. > :42:40.changes to neighbouring hospitals, Lewisham's, which hasn't got any

:42:40. > :42:50.such problems. As the local MP, what is your reaction to the

:42:50. > :42:51.

:42:51. > :42:56.A smaller accident and emergency, very little detail about what that

:42:56. > :43:01.actually means. I think it is little more than a glorified urgent

:43:01. > :43:05.care centre. The Maternity Department goes pretty much

:43:05. > :43:08.completely with a midwife lead Centre, left at Lewisham for the

:43:08. > :43:13.4,000 babies born every year. I think there is a real question

:43:13. > :43:18.about where these babies are being born? There was a big concern but

:43:18. > :43:24.the accent and emergency and he has insisted after advice from the

:43:24. > :43:30.medical care unit, there will be 247 emergency consultant cover,

:43:30. > :43:34.definition of an A&E. This is a small concession, actually. He has

:43:34. > :43:38.used big words to ramp up what it actually means in practice. I think,

:43:38. > :43:42.in practice, it means a handful of elderly people who need to be

:43:42. > :43:46.admitted, to spend a short period of time in hospital, will now be

:43:46. > :43:50.able to do that in Lewisham, which is welcome. For all other medical

:43:50. > :43:54.emergencies, people will be sent elsewhere and for parents, when

:43:54. > :43:58.their children wake up in the middle of the night, very poorly,

:43:58. > :44:04.the expertise and the doctors are not going to be in place to be

:44:04. > :44:10.helping those people and those families. What did you think today

:44:10. > :44:14.quid what you heard Andy Burnham say this was crossing the line, a

:44:14. > :44:17.dangerous precedent, fiddling around with a hospital which is

:44:18. > :44:22.doing OK? There's some striking similarities to what has happened

:44:22. > :44:26.at Lewisham hospital which was effectively paying the price of the

:44:26. > :44:31.financial failure of previous PFI agreements and bad management.

:44:31. > :44:37.Between that and what happened in my local hospital. It has been

:44:37. > :44:41.downgraded as a result of massive PFIs put in place in neighbouring

:44:41. > :44:44.hospitals so the sense of unfairness, I understand, and I

:44:44. > :44:50.think Andy Burnham actually should be little more cautious in his

:44:50. > :44:54.choice of words because it was the health secretary Alan Johnson in

:44:54. > :44:58.2008 who first downgraded Chase Farm and there wasn't an outcry

:44:58. > :45:08.from the front bench. Do you support the general drift of this

:45:08. > :45:17.

:45:17. > :45:24.I was elected on a manifesto to try and prevent the downgrade of A&E at

:45:24. > :45:29.Chase Farm. My job is to represent my constituents. Chief medical

:45:29. > :45:31.officer said I should not be doing that and look at the medical

:45:32. > :45:36.arguments. My argument here is that people who should be arguing the

:45:36. > :45:42.case to win the hearts and minds of the public, if they are right, is

:45:42. > :45:49.the medical profession, which in my case played no significant role.

:45:49. > :45:55.Next move, is that it, a battle lost? We will keep fighting. The

:45:55. > :45:59.Conservative manifesto said it would stop the forced closure of a

:45:59. > :46:06.Andy and maternity services. Page 47 of the Conservative manifesto.

:46:07. > :46:09.Or what can you do about Lewisham now? There is the option of a

:46:09. > :46:14.review. I know the mayor of Lewisham is looking at that. But we

:46:14. > :46:19.are going to continue to fight this. OK, let's move on.

:46:19. > :46:24.We had more details this week of the high-speed two rail line and

:46:24. > :46:27.the construction of CrossRail as we know it is well under way. Is there

:46:27. > :46:33.any more scope for any more construction in the capital? This

:46:33. > :46:37.week, one of London's business organisations will put the case for

:46:37. > :46:42.CrossRail two going north south across the capital.

:46:42. > :46:46.CrossRail under construction. Almost twice the price of the

:46:46. > :46:51.Olympics, it is the largest construction project in Europe.

:46:51. > :46:55.When it is finished it will add 10 % to the Tube's capacity. With

:46:55. > :47:00.London's population set to expand by over a million people in the

:47:00. > :47:05.next decade, transport planners say it is not enough. The mayor will

:47:05. > :47:09.give his planning to expand further. The final details of the proposed

:47:09. > :47:13.route will be unveiled on Tuesday. It is predicted the line will run

:47:13. > :47:18.South West, North East from Wimbledon to Epping, via Euston,

:47:18. > :47:22.stopping at Chelsea and Hackney among others. There will also be

:47:22. > :47:25.the potential to extend the line further in both directions. The men

:47:26. > :47:29.may be on site but the final say on the project would come from the

:47:29. > :47:35.government. At the moment, they are offering warm words but not hard

:47:35. > :47:41.cash. The government recognises the need extra funding to reach

:47:41. > :47:47.additional demand. Also has the Department we are expecting to see

:47:47. > :47:50.the business case from TfL later this month. At a point, we will

:47:50. > :47:55.have to documents to inform the debate about whether CrossRail is

:47:55. > :47:59.the right solution. The final price tag would defend on the route. With

:47:59. > :48:04.little money around it is unlikely the tax payer would pick up the

:48:04. > :48:07.thick end of the bill. In the report we set out costings. The

:48:07. > :48:12.important thing is there is a partnership fund. The need to be

:48:12. > :48:17.partnership between tax payers and businesses in London, the tax payer

:48:17. > :48:23.nationally so we can make this affordable but we also need to cut

:48:23. > :48:27.private finance agreements as well. Last week, Southwark council leader

:48:27. > :48:31.launched this online petition calling for the Bakerloo line to be

:48:31. > :48:36.extended to Camberwell and Peckham. No one transport scheme will meet

:48:36. > :48:39.all of London's needs. There may be the need for some to be extensions

:48:40. > :48:44.but we will also need significant new capacity from the south-west of

:48:44. > :48:48.London to the north-east, which we believe is best provided by a new

:48:48. > :48:53.line. The big difference between the two schemes is that CrossRail

:48:53. > :48:55.two has the backing of big business, the Bakerloo line does not which

:48:55. > :49:01.means one is more likely to be made than the other.

:49:01. > :49:06.We saw a picture of him there, Peter John, the leader of Southwark

:49:06. > :49:13.Council, welcome to you. What would CrossRail two do for you in the

:49:13. > :49:17.south-east? Not much, in truth. At the end, Lewisham is poorly served

:49:17. > :49:24.by the underground system. We have been waiting 100 years for the

:49:24. > :49:27.Bakerloo extension to come to Camberwell so we think it is time.

:49:27. > :49:32.When the mayor and his disorganisation start talking at

:49:32. > :49:37.cross rail two, what do you think? We have not asked them to assess

:49:37. > :49:41.the merits of the Bakerloo extension but I know the mayor is

:49:41. > :49:45.keen on the extension. He has said to me he thinks it should be a

:49:45. > :49:49.priority. He needs to make sure it is his number one priority. Which

:49:49. > :49:54.perhaps it is not at the moment and you will have seen the trend with

:49:54. > :49:59.the next tube extension we are told, which is around Battersea, which

:49:59. > :50:03.needs a huge amount of private money, big companies coming to set

:50:03. > :50:09.up there. Realistically, we get at around Peckham and Camberwell?

:50:09. > :50:15.think we are. Southwark and Lewisham are two boroughs where we

:50:15. > :50:18.are expecting to seek increases in our populations of around 100,000.

:50:18. > :50:23.Those people will be serving central London, working in central

:50:23. > :50:27.London but also working in Peckham and Camberwell and Lewisham. We

:50:27. > :50:35.need a transport infrastructure to meet their needs. Has there not

:50:35. > :50:39.been feasibility work done by TfL? TfL has done some feasibility work.

:50:39. > :50:43.Obviously, we need them to take that further forward. We need them

:50:43. > :50:47.to look in earnest. I know there would be a major business benefits

:50:47. > :50:53.in terms of regeneration in terms of Camberwell, Peckham and beyond,

:50:53. > :50:58.if the Bakerloo line was extended. You have had Tube extension, the

:50:58. > :51:04.South London Line has helped your part of the world but does

:51:04. > :51:09.CrossRail help you? Certainly, CrossRail two does not have much of

:51:09. > :51:15.an impact on South East London. East London Line has come down into

:51:15. > :51:19.part of Lewisham which is fantastic. There is huge demand for trains in

:51:19. > :51:23.south-east London because the Tube network does not really extended

:51:23. > :51:28.south-east London. People are using the East London line a lot more. I

:51:28. > :51:33.think the value of the Bakerloo line extension is that it really

:51:33. > :51:39.comes into south-east London, could continue through cat for down to

:51:39. > :51:43.Bromley, for example, and that would bring the tube map to south-

:51:43. > :51:48.east London probably. Would it go through your constituency? We would

:51:48. > :51:53.not see much but I can empathise with both cases. With HS2 we will

:51:54. > :51:59.be bringing a lot more people into London so overall the structure and

:51:59. > :52:04.strategies... Be cos of HS2 and CrossRail, are we likely to get

:52:05. > :52:08.another one? This is the time to be looking at London. We need capital

:52:08. > :52:12.infrastructure projects and I think the government and then there are

:52:12. > :52:16.doing the right thing. What we have been looking and arguing, and I

:52:16. > :52:21.have been working hard to develop this, we want to see extra

:52:21. > :52:27.infrastructure going up our eastern corridor in Enfield, the main

:52:27. > :52:31.Cambridge line, because we know it will drive jobs and housing. These

:52:31. > :52:37.investments will be welcome wherever they are. It could lead up

:52:37. > :52:42.to a new hub airport in Stansted? Some say it will do that. Let's not

:52:42. > :52:46.get you on aviation. A final word from you. What is the next stage?

:52:46. > :52:49.It is to carry on getting signatures on the petition and

:52:49. > :52:53.making the economic case. The Mayor is talking about his priorities

:52:53. > :52:57.being jobs and growth, I think a Bakerloo Line extension would bring

:52:57. > :53:03.jobs and growth to our part of south-east London. We have been

:53:03. > :53:06.waiting 100 years for it. Thank you. This weekend, every private

:53:06. > :53:11.landlord in Newham was supposed to have registered their property with

:53:12. > :53:21.the council. It is the first licensing scheme of its kind in the

:53:22. > :53:24.

:53:24. > :53:30.country. Hello, it is the police, open the

:53:30. > :53:36.door. I can see you. Seems like this are a weekly occurrence in the

:53:36. > :53:40.borough of Newham -- Newham, police cracking down on the landlords of

:53:40. > :53:45.large multiple occupancy homes. his property should have a licence.

:53:45. > :53:49.It does not. There are a large number of people living here and

:53:49. > :53:55.there are fire precautions which are completely inadequate. We are

:53:55. > :54:02.here to gather the evidence we need to take action against the landlord.

:54:02. > :54:06.1, two, three beds. Upstairs we find four men sleeping in the same

:54:06. > :54:16.room. One tells me he is from South India and has a master's degree in

:54:16. > :54:18.

:54:18. > :54:24.computing. I'm getting my salary and I need to spend and expand. I

:54:24. > :54:31.am looking at all the things and my rent will be more. It is very hard

:54:31. > :54:36.for me in this country. I just go for �300 a month. It is quite easy

:54:36. > :54:39.for us. Since Friday, Every Landlord in the bar is supposed to

:54:39. > :54:44.have registered with the council. Not just bigger properties like

:54:44. > :54:52.this. Homes will have to meet a certain standard. A move the

:54:52. > :54:58.council say will help stop abuses. In it does not take that long to

:54:58. > :55:03.put some clothes on. Open the door! Later on, another property. This

:55:03. > :55:07.time it is registered under the new scheme. The landlord here does have

:55:07. > :55:11.a licence but the council are not sure whether he is meeting the

:55:11. > :55:16.terms of it. They are asking how many people live here, trying to

:55:16. > :55:21.work out who they are and see if the licence complies. The council

:55:21. > :55:24.suspect it is breaking some rules. This is pretty typical. We find

:55:24. > :55:31.properties like this every week and we find people living in this type

:55:31. > :55:35.of accommodation. It is very sad. But it makes us cross. People are

:55:36. > :55:41.exploiting people who do not necessarily understand their rights.

:55:41. > :55:46.That is wrong. It is important that the local authority steps in.

:55:46. > :55:51.some landlords think the scheme is well-intentioned but misguided.

:55:51. > :55:55.This man is one of them. He thinks the 500 pound licence could people

:55:55. > :55:59.-- could put people off buying to let in the borough, reducing the

:55:59. > :56:06.supply of properties and pushing up prices. It is an additional level

:56:06. > :56:10.of bureaucracy. Newham already has plenty of powers to enforced

:56:10. > :56:13.against rogue operators. I do not understand how creating a database

:56:13. > :56:16.of every property which has been privately rented in the borough

:56:17. > :56:22.will enable them to improve standards. There are concerns as

:56:22. > :56:26.well about how well the register is being run. There is an estimated

:56:26. > :56:36.38,000 rental properties in the borough. Only 22,000 have been

:56:36. > :56:37.

:56:37. > :56:41.registered sofa. -- so far. All eyes will be on Newham to see if

:56:41. > :56:46.other local authorities follow suit. It is a veritable parade of Labour

:56:46. > :56:50.leaders in London this week. Sir Robin Wales is here, the leader of

:56:50. > :56:54.Newham council. Your enforcement officers are doing what they are

:56:54. > :56:57.doing now, presumably quite successfully, why a licensing

:56:57. > :57:02.scheme where you have to charge people? Are a few unlicensed, you

:57:02. > :57:06.know where they are. You can do something about it and there are

:57:06. > :57:11.rules you have to abide by. The only way we can abide by every

:57:11. > :57:15.property is to get people registered. The people who keep

:57:15. > :57:20.under the radar are the bad landlords. We think 25 % of

:57:20. > :57:25.landlords are ripping people off, exploiting them and not paying tax.

:57:25. > :57:32.If you do not go on the scheme, �20,000 fine is possible. Most of

:57:32. > :57:39.them are good and you will have them charging five -- �150. It is

:57:39. > :57:44.for five years. We are saying the good landlords have to pay a little

:57:44. > :57:49.but the good landlords will drive the band - at bad landlords out.

:57:49. > :57:54.Let's think about the thousands of people who are being exploited. If

:57:55. > :57:59.we had 38 people in one property. 16 of them children. We cannot let

:57:59. > :58:05.that continue. Why do you have to charge for it? This will cost a lot

:58:05. > :58:12.of money to a force. We are putting a lot of effort into enforcing it.

:58:12. > :58:17.When we did the pilot it took two years to identify everybody. So the

:58:17. > :58:24.good landlords, the vast majority who are paying their licence fee,

:58:24. > :58:29.that is helping you bolster your enforcement? Yes, �30 a year in

:58:29. > :58:35.order that we can take out the rogue, we call them criminal

:58:35. > :58:40.landlords, we can take them away and actually transform the nature

:58:40. > :58:45.of it. That will also drive up the rents that are available to people.

:58:45. > :58:49.We think it is perse -- perfectly reasonable. The government will

:58:49. > :58:55.benefit from higher taxes. We will stop seeing people exploited.

:58:55. > :59:00.have been and a lot of landlords campaigning against it? Three-

:59:00. > :59:03.quarters of people said they wanted it. You are twice as likely to have

:59:03. > :59:10.antisocial behaviour from a private rented property than any other type

:59:10. > :59:15.of property. We have had enough of landlords not behaving responsibly.

:59:15. > :59:21.Landlords want to license lettings agents. Are was with one in

:59:21. > :59:27.Stratford and he said despite the Olympics hardly any three-bedroom

:59:27. > :59:31.family sized private rented homes were in the area. You need to free

:59:31. > :59:36.these up. Isn't that a priority? This will drive a lot of bad

:59:36. > :59:41.landlords out. We are interested in buying them, doing them up and

:59:41. > :59:45.making them available for rent because we support private renting.

:59:45. > :59:50.We are looking to build elsewhere. We went to the government and said

:59:50. > :59:54.if you give us and let us do some things, we can build more

:59:55. > :59:58.properties. We mean to build and try and develop this. In the end,

:59:58. > :00:08.I'm not telling the situation with 16 kids in one house. We cannot put

:00:08. > :00:14.

:00:14. > :00:18.Grand chap said they going to tear of regulation on landlords.

:00:18. > :00:24.they passionately believe in local decision-making. What is right in

:00:24. > :00:28.Newham, I see a lot of advantages. Should we look at something like

:00:28. > :00:33.that in Enfield? Guildford, elsewhere, this is not something we

:00:33. > :00:37.should be imposing on people. We shouldn't have a national register

:00:37. > :00:41.of. I don't think we should do it on a regional basis. I can see

:00:41. > :00:45.advantages on anti-social behaviour. There is a case where we have

:00:45. > :00:50.private rented housing, someone came into my surgery and said it is

:00:50. > :00:54.making our lives hell. There's a legal activity going on there,

:00:54. > :01:00.anti-social behaviour, it's driving them mad. It's difficult to remove

:01:00. > :01:04.some body if they are not keen to do it. Anything which starts to

:01:04. > :01:08.rain in the export of landlord will be a good thing. I think Newham is

:01:08. > :01:15.leading the way and I disagree with Nick when he says they shouldn't be

:01:15. > :01:19.a regional scheme. I think London, as a big city, this problem is

:01:19. > :01:24.endemic. I've seen people living in sheds at the bottom of people's

:01:25. > :01:30.gardens. The conditions at the bottom end of the private rented

:01:30. > :01:33.sector is appalling. In Lewisham, it's doubled in the last 10 years.

:01:33. > :01:36.People can't afford to get a mortgage but, at the other end of

:01:36. > :01:42.the scale, there's not enough council housing and social housing

:01:42. > :01:49.available for people to rent. are still well short about 10,000,

:01:49. > :01:53.on to? Yes, we will be identifying everybody, knocking on every door.

:01:53. > :02:03.We did a pilot and it took two years to get the landlords but we

:02:03. > :02:05.

:02:05. > :02:09.got them in the end. We, this year, we are serious about this, we will

:02:09. > :02:15.transform the lives of some of those residents. Thank you very

:02:15. > :02:23.much indeed. What else has been going on at this week? Here it is

:02:23. > :02:27.in 60 seconds. Good news for London revellers who may get another hour

:02:27. > :02:32.to catch the last tube. Due to the accept -- success of the Olympics

:02:32. > :02:37.services, TfL are looking to run the tubes until 2am. London

:02:37. > :02:43.councils are being accused to use a litter fines as cash cows and

:02:43. > :02:51.employing private police forces to maximise opportunities. Four of the

:02:51. > :02:56.top 10 find issuers were London borough was. -- boroughs. Under the

:02:56. > :03:00.plans, in future, only electric vehicles will qualify. A new race

:03:00. > :03:08.has begun in the Olympic park to get into the athletes village halls

:03:08. > :03:13.of 17,000 people have already signed up to deliver 2,800 flats.

:03:13. > :03:17.Chelsea Barracks, sources say the firm behind the controversial

:03:17. > :03:27.scheme are reconsidering developing the site due to the context of the

:03:27. > :03:27.

:03:27. > :03:30.prevailing economic environment. That economic environment, will be

:03:30. > :03:35.building new places any more because there's no businesses who

:03:35. > :03:40.want to move it to occupy them? What I would say is we have to be

:03:40. > :03:44.careful about the language we are using. Sometimes I hear leaders

:03:44. > :03:50.talking too much about, sending signals we don't like profit,

:03:50. > :03:53.talking constantly about the tax spectrum. We want everybody to pay

:03:53. > :03:59.their fair share. Britain is a great place to invest and we should

:03:59. > :04:04.encourage people to do that, asking people to come in and do business.

:04:04. > :04:07.I think there's many regeneration sites in London and across the

:04:07. > :04:12.country but have stalled. This government regeneration strategy

:04:12. > :04:15.does not exist, to be honest. One of the first things the Government

:04:16. > :04:19.did was take away some of the funding for the National affordable

:04:19. > :04:24.house building programme which helped make the developments more

:04:24. > :04:30.viable so I think what we're seeing of the results of that short-

:04:30. > :04:35.sighted approach initially. If the shard is selling difficulty to get

:04:35. > :04:37.people in there, something iconic, that's a problem, isn't it?

:04:37. > :04:41.shouldn't look to the last Labour government who failed to do an

:04:41. > :04:46.awful lot of that, but it's a difficult economic climate and

:04:46. > :04:50.London is a great city to be in. It's a good place for business.

:04:50. > :05:00.People are coming into the UK to invest. Don't read too much into

:05:00. > :05:03.

:05:03. > :05:05.one iconic building up. Thank you, In a moment we'll look ahead to the

:05:05. > :05:07.big stories that will dominate politics next week with our

:05:07. > :05:16.political panel. And we'll be joined by the Conservative

:05:16. > :05:19.backbencher David Davis. But first Good afternoon. Senior local

:05:19. > :05:21.Conservatives are urging the prime minister to delay any parliamentary

:05:21. > :05:24.decision on gay marriage until after the next election. A

:05:24. > :05:26.delegation of constituency chairmen will deliver the letter to Downing

:05:26. > :05:33.Street this lunchtime, warning that the issue could cause significant

:05:33. > :05:41.damage to the Party. Louise Stewart is in Westminster. Louise, just how

:05:41. > :05:44.damaging is this? Maxine, I think there is no doubt it is a divisive

:05:44. > :05:47.issue for the Conservatives. It's an issue the Prime Minister cares

:05:47. > :05:51.passionately about and I think many in the Conservative party thought

:05:51. > :05:58.it would help to modernise the brand and appealed to a wider

:05:58. > :06:03.audience. It is laid bare tensions within the party. It is a free vote

:06:03. > :06:08.on Tuesday and its estimated some Cabinet members, as well as more

:06:08. > :06:12.junior ministers, and even the party whips, are likely to abstain

:06:12. > :06:17.from the issue. There is a delegation going to Downing Street

:06:17. > :06:21.very shortly this lunchtime to hand in this letter of protest, and they

:06:21. > :06:25.say they're calling for the boat to be delayed. They think it should be

:06:25. > :06:28.put off until after the general election and say it has been pushed

:06:28. > :06:33.through with haste, which many Conservative members find extremely

:06:33. > :06:36.distasteful. Louise, thank you. A woman from East London who was

:06:36. > :06:41.disfigured in an acid attack on her way home from work has speaking to

:06:41. > :06:45.the BBC about her ordeal. Naomi Oni, who's 20, had just stepped off a

:06:45. > :06:50.bus late at night when a woman wearing a veil threw liquid in her

:06:50. > :06:56.face. She says she didn't want to live when she saw herself for the

:06:57. > :07:00.first time after the attack. Ben Ando reports.

:07:00. > :07:05.This was 20-year-old Naomi Oni before the attack, now her life has

:07:05. > :07:10.been changed forever. There was droplets on my arm. She suffered

:07:10. > :07:14.burns on her shoulder, her face and wrists, just over a month ago when

:07:14. > :07:19.acid was thrown at her by an unknown attacker dressed in a

:07:19. > :07:24.burger. She has no idea why she was targeted, and is facing the world

:07:24. > :07:29.now in the hope that someone will contact the police. It burnt my

:07:29. > :07:35.tongue, got into my eyes. And it burnt quite a bit of my hair. I'm

:07:35. > :07:40.not death, not blind, and I can eat and drink and talk. That, to me,

:07:40. > :07:50.that person failed, whatever their aim was. They failed and God has

:07:50. > :07:52.

:07:52. > :07:56.given me a life for a reason. That's what keeps me going. When

:07:56. > :08:02.she first saw her injuries, she said she wanted to die but now she

:08:02. > :08:06.is determined to stay positive. No one has been arrested.

:08:06. > :08:10.The leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan are in the UK for two days

:08:10. > :08:14.of talks with David Cameron. It's part of efforts to prevent a

:08:14. > :08:21.Taliban resurgence when NATO troops leave the region. It's currently

:08:21. > :08:24.scheduled by the end of next year. Hamid Karzai and his counterpart

:08:24. > :08:27.will have his dinner at Chequers this evening before a formal

:08:27. > :08:35.meeting tomorrow. That's all the news for now. There

:08:35. > :08:39.will be more here on BBC One at Thank you, Maxine. The NHS, the

:08:39. > :08:49.Police and the Conservative Party. Three institutions that will come

:08:49. > :08:50.

:08:50. > :09:00.under strain and scrutiny in The A bit of an argument between

:09:00. > :09:02.Michael Gove and the Observer newspaper. It used to be the

:09:03. > :09:08.Financial Times. Let's have a good headline about smear tactics

:09:08. > :09:13.against his bows and so on ovals of it's a storm in a teacup? Yes, I'm

:09:13. > :09:19.completely underwhelmed by it. Spin doctors are basically political

:09:19. > :09:22.appointees, and their job is to spin and sometimes it gets nasty

:09:22. > :09:29.and journalists generally have a thick skin about that. I'm sure it

:09:29. > :09:36.will be followed up. Yes, I think there's a lot of Twitter action on

:09:36. > :09:42.this. It's not Watergate. Really? Let's get it into perspective, but

:09:42. > :09:48.there are some interesting issues raised here. The political editor

:09:48. > :09:53.of the Observer has been questioned by the Tory education camp run by

:09:53. > :09:57.Michael Gove's operation and you should expect that. Other

:09:57. > :10:02.journalists have had some pretty serious things said about them up.

:10:02. > :10:05.This Twitter account spoke about other journalists, making serious

:10:06. > :10:13.personal points, and I think when you get into that territory, you

:10:13. > :10:17.need to be careful. Does anybody care? I'm not sure anybody within a

:10:17. > :10:24.mile of here cares. It's that bad. I'm not old enough to remember

:10:24. > :10:28.Watergate but I suspect it's a non- story. I can tell you Watergate was

:10:28. > :10:33.marginally more important in my view. But it reveals something

:10:33. > :10:38.deeper, anyone who tries to reform education orthodoxy in this country

:10:38. > :10:43.get attacked. It happened to Tony Blair 10 years ago. He can shows

:10:44. > :10:45.you the scars on his back. It happened Michael Gove now. When you

:10:45. > :10:49.talk the education department, though not characterised by a

:10:49. > :10:52.pugnacity, but a sense of on the ability because they are

:10:52. > :10:54.permanently under siege. Now, tomorrow night the Channel Four

:10:54. > :10:56.Dispatches programme is broadcasting a follow-up of its

:10:56. > :11:06.investigation into the plebgate or plodgate affair including an

:11:06. > :11:10.

:11:10. > :11:16.interview with Mr Mitchell himself. I was caught between the pincers of

:11:16. > :11:19.the police on one hand, and the media on the other. In a way that

:11:19. > :11:26.would lead you to believe that the Leverson Inquiry had never even

:11:26. > :11:34.taken place. I think it was completely wrong. And it led to my

:11:34. > :11:37.demise. Mr Mitchell on Channel 4 tomorrow night. Well, a little

:11:37. > :11:40.while ago, I spoke to the vice chairman of the Police Federation,

:11:40. > :11:42.the organisation that represents rank and file police officers and

:11:42. > :11:47.campaigned vociferously against Mr Mitchell. Let's have a reminder of

:11:47. > :11:51.what he said. The National Police Federation accepted Andrew

:11:51. > :11:57.Mitchell's apology and we wanted to move on. The fact of the matter

:11:57. > :11:59.is... You don't think he should have resigned? There is a number of

:11:59. > :12:04.police federations in the West Midlands have felt there were

:12:04. > :12:12.questions to answer. David Davies has taken a close interest in this.

:12:12. > :12:16.What do you make to the Federation line now? I think the simple thing

:12:16. > :12:22.is, the National Police Federation did nothing to interfere with the

:12:22. > :12:27.West Midlands Federation when it was setting and drew up. They went

:12:27. > :12:31.to see him, gave an account of the meeting which was untrue. It did

:12:31. > :12:36.nothing to stop the campaign, that he should campaign and so on. It's

:12:36. > :12:41.very convenient for him to sit back and say, it's not our fault. Not me.

:12:41. > :12:45.I'm afraid it is just as guilty as everybody else. You think it

:12:45. > :12:50.letters people off the leash? Absolutely appalled that it's a

:12:50. > :12:53.serious consequences for its future. People don't have trust in a

:12:53. > :13:00.federation like it did and the Government will be less afraid of

:13:00. > :13:03.them. It sounds quite bizarre to say this, in the 21st century, is

:13:03. > :13:07.the circumstantial evidence that at least part of the police force were

:13:07. > :13:11.allowed to destroy a Cabinet minister? It looks that way.

:13:11. > :13:19.Certainly in terms of the federation in the West Midlands,

:13:19. > :13:21.who picked up the story, and made much more of it. Let's remember who

:13:21. > :13:26.they are for the but federation represents people whose job it is

:13:26. > :13:30.to uphold justice. Therefore, they have certain standards. These

:13:30. > :13:34.people are supposed to be upheld in justice and are fitting up cabinet

:13:34. > :13:40.ministers. Where does Downing Street come out in all this,

:13:40. > :13:44.though? The Cabinet minister, in the end, didn't quite enjoyed the

:13:44. > :13:47.support and the robust support of Downing Street. There's a couple of

:13:47. > :13:53.world problems the Downing Street's handling of it. First thing to say

:13:53. > :13:59.is, why on earth Jeremy Heywood did the investigation and self? He has

:13:59. > :14:02.the entire apparatus of the state at his fingertips, and he has a man

:14:03. > :14:06.from MI5 seconde it to Number Ten to look after his security. Why

:14:06. > :14:13.didn't he say to him, go through it and tell me what's wrong with it?

:14:13. > :14:16.He did the wrong thing. Secondly, Downing Street is not just a

:14:16. > :14:22.Justice Organisation but it's there to defend the Prime Minister. If

:14:22. > :14:24.the Prime Minister doesn't want to have a fight with the federation,

:14:24. > :14:28.exacerbate an on going clash with the police over piece of forms and

:14:28. > :14:30.so on, what are they going to do? They won't step out and take a

:14:30. > :14:40.robust line defending Andrew Mitchell and that's effectively

:14:40. > :14:51.

:14:51. > :14:58.The government has tried to do things by way of Police

:14:58. > :15:03.Commissioners. Was that their main grievance? It will be a self

:15:03. > :15:10.justification. It is not a union technically so these are not shop

:15:10. > :15:13.stewards. Why does a militant shop steward become militant? To get re-

:15:13. > :15:17.elected. Sometimes he tries to appeal to the worst instincts of

:15:17. > :15:22.his members and that is what is happening here. If you take money

:15:22. > :15:26.away from people, that is what the reforms are doing, the simple thing

:15:26. > :15:33.is if you take money away they will have a grievance. Another thing you

:15:33. > :15:37.have not mentioned, David, is the extent to which Labour was

:15:37. > :15:39.incredibly opportunistic about this story. They were coming up to the

:15:39. > :15:42.elections on Police and Crime Commissioners and they were

:15:43. > :15:48.planning to make that a real big issue if Mitchell had not resigned

:15:48. > :15:53.beforehand. And indeed Miliband's attack on the day, with Mitchell

:15:53. > :15:58.sitting in front of him was a fierce attack. It was, I think, a

:15:58. > :16:02.significant part of what happened in the 22 Committee afterwards of

:16:02. > :16:08.Tory MPs saying we have got to go and Andrew Mitchell's own decision

:16:08. > :16:11.to go. I don't think many British institutions come out of this with

:16:11. > :16:16.credit. The only group that was supporting Andrew during the so-

:16:16. > :16:22.called tough time was the nurses who worked with his wife, black

:16:22. > :16:26.nurses who said her, now you know how our sons feel. A criticise

:16:26. > :16:30.Jeremy Heywood the Cabinet Secretary but he was working in the

:16:30. > :16:34.space created for him by the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister

:16:34. > :16:42.made a decision which was not to accuse the police have line even if

:16:42. > :16:49.they did. It was as they say in Scotland, feared. They were careful.

:16:49. > :16:54.Is that the southern version?! cannot be inside his head and heart

:16:54. > :16:59.but he did not want to fight with police. Gay marriage, it looks like

:16:59. > :17:05.your party is split down the middle? I am afraid it is. I am

:17:05. > :17:10.seeing a lot of numbers. The previous biggest rebellion was and

:17:10. > :17:14.91 and I think it will be bigger than that. I think it will be well

:17:14. > :17:18.over 91. It is reflecting a combination of things. It is

:17:18. > :17:24.reflecting the views of the MPs themselves but also reflecting

:17:24. > :17:28.their membership. I had lunch with a very Loyalist very decent Cabinet

:17:28. > :17:36.minister last week. His first words were, how many members have you

:17:36. > :17:43.lost? He has lost dozens. Have you? Yes. That this is not as it is

:17:43. > :17:47.being portrayed, an issue of rights, it is a clash of beliefs. Civil

:17:47. > :17:54.rights -- civil partnerships were an issue of rights. I was involved

:17:54. > :17:59.in that. Alan Duncan was the first gay minister to come out. That was

:17:59. > :18:05.about rights. Is about a clash. Peter Tatchell talked to me about

:18:05. > :18:10.this years ago. I spent six months thinking about it. It is not for

:18:11. > :18:17.government is say your police are right, your beliefs are wrong.

:18:17. > :18:22.really big news story next week which will affect the country is

:18:22. > :18:29.the horrendous events which took place in the mid- Staffs Hospital.

:18:29. > :18:33.I think it will be a wake-up call for the NHS in general. How

:18:33. > :18:37.widespread is bad behaviour? think what is really concerning for

:18:37. > :18:42.patient and people who use hospitals every day, these terrible

:18:42. > :18:46.things happen many years ago when the economy was pretty healthy. Now

:18:46. > :18:51.hospitals are facing much more tough economic conditions. There

:18:51. > :18:56.are lots of cuts to staffing. Does that mean it is not in a widespread

:18:56. > :19:02.but it could get worse? We all care about the NHS, this could swamp

:19:02. > :19:08.them? If any good comes from this story is it has become politically

:19:08. > :19:13.legitimate to voice concerns about the NHS. I prefer the NHS to the

:19:13. > :19:22.American insurance model. For too long it has been politically toxic

:19:22. > :19:29.to entertain that subject. Gordon Brown said this shows the Tories

:19:29. > :19:33.are not trusted. This has been caused by trying to meet targets.

:19:33. > :19:39.Thank you for joining the most talented panel in British