:00:46. > :00:48.Sunday Politics. The bunting dashed the economy is growing again, just.
:00:48. > :00:52.But the picture remains bleak for manufacturing and construction, so
:00:52. > :00:56.what happened to the promises to rebalance the economy away from
:00:56. > :01:00.services? We will ask deputy prime minister Nick Clegg. We will also
:01:00. > :01:04.ask him why he is right and the police are wrong about new powers
:01:04. > :01:08.they say will help protect the public from terrorists.
:01:08. > :01:12.All that and his party's prospects in the local elections in our Sunday
:01:13. > :01:15.interview with the Lib Dem leader. Will Thursday's elections produce a
:01:16. > :01:20.UKIP breakthrough in local government, and could the Greens be
:01:20. > :01:30.a casual to? We will ask UKIP deputy leader Paul Nuttall amid controversy
:01:30. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:34.over some of their candidates and Green MP Caroline Lucas. In London,
:01:34. > :01:38.government investment falling fares rising that can London have
:01:38. > :01:48.world-class tube when studies show it is expensive and unreliable?
:01:48. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :01:53.All that and their political panel with views dashed Janan Ganesh, Nick
:01:53. > :02:00.Watt and newcomer Helen Lewis. They will be tweeting as if their lives
:02:00. > :02:04.depended on it throughout the programme, which they do!
:02:04. > :02:07.UKIP are making the headlines this weekend, but not necessarily in a
:02:07. > :02:10.good way. The party have tripled the number of candidates they are
:02:10. > :02:14.running in the local elections next week and they remain in double
:02:14. > :02:18.figures in the latest polls. But with success comes scrutiny and
:02:18. > :02:23.criticism, from among others, big beast can Clark, who was attacking
:02:23. > :02:33.them on sky News this morning. So have other Tories and the Sunday
:02:33. > :02:34.
:02:34. > :02:37.papers this morning. Janan Ganesh, you can take comfort from the fact
:02:37. > :02:40.that they are now so important that the other parties' spin doctors can
:02:40. > :02:42.be unleashed on them. If I were Nigel Farage, I would take this as a
:02:42. > :02:45.perverse condiment. There is no way either the Tories or the press would
:02:45. > :02:50.be switching their guns towards UKIP unless they were a serious presence
:02:50. > :02:55.politically. But it becomes bad news if they don't adjust to it and
:02:55. > :03:00.become more able to withstand scrutiny. There are signs that they
:03:00. > :03:03.are struggling. There is an idea mooted by some UKIP figures that
:03:03. > :03:06.they essentially buy policies off-the-shelf from right-wing think
:03:06. > :03:14.tanks because they have so little internal capacity for that kind of
:03:14. > :03:16.thing. That is something they will have to improve before 2015 if they
:03:16. > :03:19.are to make an impact electorally. So they can take comfort from being
:03:19. > :03:22.in the headlines, but they also seem to have expanded so quickly that as
:03:22. > :03:27.they have admitted, they have not been able to scrutinise some of
:03:27. > :03:34.their candidates, who may be living up to you that Cameron's original
:03:34. > :03:38.description of UKIP? They have gone up from 600 to nearly 1800, which is
:03:38. > :03:43.an imperial overstretch which has taken place. We know about that at
:03:43. > :03:47.the BBC. You have some astonishingly fringe views that are being found.
:03:47. > :03:50.One candidate had to be suspended because he called for forced
:03:50. > :03:56.abortions of babies with Down's syndrome. There are linked to the
:03:56. > :04:01.BNP and the EDL. It is really troublesome. There will be some
:04:01. > :04:06.whose views even UKIP would not stand by. Just the teething pains of
:04:06. > :04:09.a growing party? Well, UKIP now occupy an important position as the
:04:09. > :04:16.protest party. The Lib Dems used to be the protest party, but they were
:04:16. > :04:19.the protest party who were serious about getting into government. UKIP
:04:19. > :04:25.are not serious. Helen is saying there are all these candidates that
:04:25. > :04:29.they have not vetted, and that is true. But there are not policies. On
:04:29. > :04:33.the front page of the Observer today, Janan Ganesh was talking
:04:33. > :04:36.about whether they might go to some right-wing think tanks and get
:04:36. > :04:42.policies off-the-shelf. Beyond that core policies, they don't have a
:04:42. > :04:47.serious set. We will see on Thursday whether the old adage that all
:04:47. > :04:50.publicity is good publicity is true. They may just be happy to be on the
:04:50. > :04:53.front pages. Now, it has been three years since
:04:53. > :04:57.Nick Clegg and David Cameron famously appeared almost
:04:57. > :05:00.hand-in-hand in the Downing Street rose garden, promising to sort out
:05:00. > :05:05.the deficit and get the economy moving again. This week, they were
:05:05. > :05:08.grateful to avoid a third dip into recession, but the facts behind that
:05:08. > :05:14.headline remain worrying for the parties running Britain.
:05:14. > :05:17.This week, we found out that the UK economy had grown by just 0.3%. In
:05:17. > :05:25.the first three months of 2013. It shows how bad things have got that
:05:25. > :05:29.such a tiny upward tick was greeted with relief. These numbers are an
:05:29. > :05:35.encouraging sign that the economy is healing and despite a tough
:05:35. > :05:40.situation, we are making progress. Figures show that growth was driven
:05:40. > :05:45.by the services sector, with construction and manufacturing
:05:45. > :05:49.production continuing to perform poorly. If that sounds familiar, so
:05:49. > :05:53.does this. Coalition tensions over Civil Liberties. Theresa May's plan
:05:53. > :05:57.to consider withdrawing temporarily from the European Court of human
:05:57. > :06:03.rights to improve the chances of deporting terror suspect Abu Qatada
:06:03. > :06:07.have not gone down well with the Lib Dems. Then there was what critics
:06:08. > :06:11.call the snooper's Charter, the plans to monitor e-mail and internet
:06:11. > :06:18.used to help thwart terror plots. Nick Clegg effectively killed that
:06:19. > :06:24.live on local radio. What people have dubbed the snooper's Charter
:06:24. > :06:27.will not happen. However unpopular he is with his Conservative
:06:27. > :06:32.colleagues, Nick Clegg will be hoping that rank and file Lib Dems
:06:32. > :06:37.like it. Keeping them is vital for this Thursday's local elections.
:06:37. > :06:41.Three years on from the Rose Garden, the challenges of government for the
:06:41. > :06:44.coalition's junior partner show no sign of diminishing any time soon.
:06:44. > :06:54.Deputy prime minister Nick Clegg joins me now for the Sunday
:06:54. > :06:58.
:06:58. > :07:00.interview. Good to have you back. You made
:07:00. > :07:04.rebalancing the economy in favour of manufacturing one of the key
:07:04. > :07:10.missions for the coalition in 2010. Why have you failed even to make a
:07:10. > :07:13.start on that? I agree, the rebalancing away from an over
:07:13. > :07:16.reliance on financial services and on one square mile in the city of
:07:16. > :07:20.London as opposed to one hundred thousand square miles of our
:07:20. > :07:25.country, over reliance on service as opposed to manufacturing, you are
:07:25. > :07:30.right that that rebalancing, much like the other healing processes in
:07:30. > :07:36.the economy, is taking longer than we hoped at the beginning. The
:07:36. > :07:42.manufacturing issue is heavily bound up with problems in the Eurozone. A
:07:42. > :07:46.lot of our most competitive parts of our manufacturing industry are
:07:46. > :07:52.export facing. Because they rely so heavily on those European export
:07:52. > :07:58.markets, there has been a body blow to that rebalancing exercise. That
:07:58. > :08:01.does not mean we should stop, as a government, pulling the levers which
:08:01. > :08:06.help rebalancing - infrastructure investment, expanding
:08:06. > :08:10.apprenticeships, giving tax breaks for capital investment and we are
:08:10. > :08:15.proceeding with those. Your colleague George Osborne talked
:08:15. > :08:21.about the march of the makers. Let me show you how serious it has got.
:08:21. > :08:27.Let me show you this chart. Since you came into power, you can see how
:08:27. > :08:30.construction has plummeted. Services have risen. Thank goodness,
:08:31. > :08:37.otherwise there would be no growth. Manufacturing production continues
:08:37. > :08:47.to fall. But by no sense are we going through an era of the march of
:08:47. > :08:55.the makers. I accept that the drop-off in construction, which is
:08:55. > :09:01.linked with sentiment in the housing market, is something where we are
:09:01. > :09:05.injecting new initiatives like the help to buy scheme in the Budget,
:09:05. > :09:10.which I believe will make a difference. For the first time, the
:09:10. > :09:16.Treasury has given to housebuilders a guarantee that the Treasury will
:09:16. > :09:21.underwrite the financing costs and provide an insurance policy to the
:09:21. > :09:30.tune of �10 billion. I believe those things are starting to feed through
:09:30. > :09:33.the pipeline, but I accept, because we inherited this massive cliff edge
:09:33. > :09:39.drop in capital in the Smith decided upon by Gordon Brown and Alistair
:09:39. > :09:43.Darling, which were duty-bound to adopt in the first period of our
:09:43. > :09:50.government, we have been making up for it since. In the first Budget,
:09:50. > :09:54.we announced �3 billion of extra capital investment. I accept that
:09:54. > :09:59.all of those things have hit the construction sector, but I hope you
:09:59. > :10:03.will see that the initiatives we have taken will have an effect.
:10:04. > :10:10.housing, you inherited an economy which the year before you came to
:10:10. > :10:18.power had reduced a 96,000 housing starts for England, a derisory
:10:18. > :10:26.figure. How many was it last year? can't tell you. It was 90 8000, 2000
:10:26. > :10:28.more over three years. That is why I stress to you that many of the
:10:28. > :10:33.initiatives we take, these guarantees are important because
:10:33. > :10:38.they reduce the financing cost for housebuilders. I learnt with some
:10:38. > :10:41.frustration in government that when you decide something, the time it
:10:41. > :10:48.takes to get a decision and implement it in practice,
:10:48. > :10:51.particularly in housing, does take a while. But I have spoken to housing
:10:51. > :10:55.associations and housebuilders, and they are telling us that they think
:10:55. > :11:01.the two minute of effect of these measures will have an effect.
:11:01. > :11:05.would think that three years, we should have done something. You have
:11:05. > :11:10.confessed - not confessed, but recognised that manufacturing is
:11:10. > :11:14.struggling, but your government has made it worse. This month, energy
:11:14. > :11:18.intensive is Mrs, which is manufacturing, will have to pay a
:11:18. > :11:26.minimum of �16 in tax for every tonne of carbon they produce. In
:11:26. > :11:29.Europe, they will pay less than e3. How can they compete? You are
:11:29. > :11:33.missing out an important part of this, which is that George Osborne
:11:33. > :11:36.announced as well that we are providing millions of pounds of
:11:36. > :11:46.assistance to the most energy intensive industry, precisely to
:11:46. > :11:47.
:11:47. > :11:52.make sure the industry is not just. We have also said we will make sure
:11:52. > :11:58.we implement that policy because everybody agrees that we have to
:11:58. > :12:04.make sure our industry is not only competitive, but sustainable in the
:12:04. > :12:07.long one. But we want to do so in a way which is consistent with what is
:12:07. > :12:14.happening across the European Union. Your point is not to tie their hands
:12:14. > :12:24.behind their back. That is why we have provided millions of pounds of
:12:24. > :12:25.
:12:25. > :12:31.assistance to energy intensive industries. You have departments
:12:31. > :12:35.which are saying different things. That is slightly mischievous. We are
:12:35. > :12:40.identifying those industries which are most energy intensive where
:12:40. > :12:47.there is a clear objective case that because of their reliance on
:12:47. > :12:53.energy, they need to be provided with assistance. It is only going to
:12:53. > :12:59.get worse, because the carbon tax this month will increase to �30 a
:12:59. > :13:05.tonne in 2020 and �70 a tonne 2030 and your government's plans.
:13:05. > :13:10.Europe, it is three euros a term and falling. Why would anyone come to
:13:11. > :13:15.Britain to manufacture with that tax regime? Surely you have already lost
:13:15. > :13:25.the aluminium industry in this country. You will lose more with
:13:25. > :13:29.
:13:29. > :13:34.this? Actually, investment increased under this government. Many of the
:13:34. > :13:38.investments were announced by major foreign investors subsequent to the
:13:38. > :13:44.decision is announced, so that is incorrect. We are doing that because
:13:44. > :13:49.the reasons you decide to invest in this country - yes, energy costs are
:13:49. > :13:52.important, particularly in relation to the cost of Shell gas in the
:13:52. > :13:57.United States. There is a discrepancy. But there are other
:13:57. > :14:01.reasons why people decide to invest in the UK, because we have flexible
:14:01. > :14:06.labour markets, and very competitive corporation taxes, which are now
:14:06. > :14:10.lower than anywhere else in the world because we are investing
:14:10. > :14:15.massively in tax breaks for capital machinery. We are investing on a
:14:15. > :14:20.scale never seen before in apprenticeships and skills. Many G
:14:20. > :14:24.-- energy costs are the biggest cost, and you have increased them.
:14:24. > :14:30.There is a distinction between those who have a particularly heavy
:14:31. > :14:35.reliance on energy, and for that, we made that announcement sometime ago,
:14:35. > :14:43.a fund which helps soften the blow for those industries. At the same
:14:43. > :14:46.time, please do not overlook armour whether it is on skills,
:14:46. > :14:51.infrastructure or investment, whether it is the success of parts
:14:51. > :14:57.of our manufacturing base, I announced a few weeks ago a major
:14:57. > :15:02.new partnership where we as a government put up �1 billion, and
:15:02. > :15:11.the aerospace industry puts up its own billion pounds to create a new
:15:11. > :15:15.industry. We will see if it leads to a new rebalancing. Let's move on to
:15:15. > :15:25.infrastructure. You told a magazine a little while ago a little
:15:25. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:38.confession. There was a reduction in capital spending. Why did you make
:15:38. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:44.capital spending. Why did you make that mistake, and how big was it?
:15:44. > :15:47.Massive cut, and the government, and because of the state of the economy,
:15:47. > :15:52.we were teetering on the edge. -- we were teetering on the edge. --
:15:52. > :15:56.teetering on the edge. We were duty-bound to adopt those plans in
:15:56. > :16:00.the first instance. What we have done since then, if you let me
:16:00. > :16:07.explain, it is a little technical but it is important. We had switched
:16:07. > :16:11.money from current spending into capital spending. Most recently, we
:16:11. > :16:17.announced an additional �3 billion of capital spending. That is �18
:16:17. > :16:24.billion of extra capital. Our plans, going forward, will be better
:16:24. > :16:27.than any of the plans put forward by Labour. Labour's plans were 7% less.
:16:27. > :16:31.I think what is not going to show up in these figures is that there are
:16:31. > :16:37.things the government have done which are innovative ways of
:16:37. > :16:42.leverage in private and public capital. I think 70% of capital is
:16:42. > :16:47.private. It is not government. The green investment bank,
:16:47. > :16:50.infrastructure guarantees, �80 billion worth of infrastructure
:16:50. > :16:57.guarantees. That has never been done before and they are obscured by the
:16:57. > :17:01.figures. Let's show the figures. This is the trajectory. Public
:17:01. > :17:03.sector investment. You keep going on sector investment. You keep going on
:17:03. > :17:08.about needing to do more for infrastructure but this shows you
:17:08. > :17:14.that from the UU came in, �39 billion, you have cut it down to �24
:17:14. > :17:18.billion for this year and it only rises in real terms to �25.8 billion
:17:18. > :17:23.for the two years after that. You are presiding over, for all this
:17:23. > :17:28.talk about infrastructure, a fall in public investment of 30%. I'm in
:17:28. > :17:37.danger of repeating myself but that is the drop-off, a Labour cut.
:17:37. > :17:40.second point, given that by some definitions, 70% of capital
:17:40. > :17:44.investment is from the private investor, -- private sector, let me
:17:44. > :17:50.give you an example. The Liberal Democrats are implementing some
:17:50. > :17:56.major loans, for example to a power station in the Midlands just this
:17:56. > :18:03.week and that is �3 billion worth of taxpayers money, used to leverage
:18:03. > :18:08.around 5 billion, �15 billion worth of private sector investment. The
:18:08. > :18:13.�80 billion worth of Treasury infrastructure guaranteess do not
:18:13. > :18:15.show up on those figures and will lead to billions of pounds of extra
:18:16. > :18:22.investment in infrastructure. You hope will stop you have no proof and
:18:22. > :18:26.that is the reality. How much has the Green bank lent so far? It has
:18:26. > :18:31.already started lending on a significant scale. How much? The
:18:31. > :18:39.plan is to use �3 billion from the public sector and, over the coming
:18:39. > :18:43.years, make sure that matches... How much has the �80 billion of
:18:43. > :18:47.guarantees been realised in the private sector? I do not have the
:18:47. > :18:52.figures. But that is all we have to go on, Deputy Prime Minister. We do
:18:52. > :18:57.not. �80 billion is a real figure. It
:18:57. > :19:02.dwarfs that. Let me repeat, it is an offer from the government, and
:19:02. > :19:06.innovative offer to people who want to invest in housing and
:19:06. > :19:12.infrastructure and roads and energy. We say to them, we will lower the
:19:12. > :19:19.costs of your financing costs by allowing you to use the government's
:19:19. > :19:22.balance sheet. As an insurance policy, in expect. -- in effect. And
:19:22. > :19:25.I'd hope it happens. At a time when there is no money, it would be
:19:25. > :19:30.lovely to wave a magic wand and say that we wish we had not inherited
:19:30. > :19:37.land from Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling and that we could split
:19:37. > :19:40.money all over the place, but we cannot. We're new things. -- we are
:19:40. > :19:50.doing new things and eye except that some of this takes longer than I
:19:50. > :19:50.
:19:50. > :19:54.would like. -- I accept. There is evidence that it is starting to
:19:54. > :20:00.happen. The changing face of terrorism, the Boston Marathon, the
:20:00. > :20:04.thought of attempt on a Canadian train, two high-profile terror gangs
:20:04. > :20:08.convicted this week. They show that terrorism is home-grown and not
:20:08. > :20:10.directed by Al-Qaeda. Those paid to save our lives think that enhanced
:20:10. > :20:16.digital monitoring of these people is essential, yet you have killed
:20:16. > :20:18.off the bill that the security services want. Why? Of course the
:20:18. > :20:25.police and security services must be given proportionate, workable tools
:20:25. > :20:29.for beer job. -- their job. My point is that on further examination of
:20:29. > :20:35.what is proposed, significant part of what was proposed were neither
:20:35. > :20:39.workable, nor proportionate. proposal that a law would be passed
:20:39. > :20:44.which meant that there are records of every website you ever visit,
:20:44. > :20:49.Andrew, or anybody in the country, creating a huge treasure trove of
:20:49. > :20:54.information of websites ever visited by anyone, or whoever you ever
:20:54. > :20:58.communicate with on social media, once close exoneration many people
:20:58. > :21:02.thought that was not proportionate. -- upon close examination. There
:21:02. > :21:04.were players in the internet industry upon whose cooperation we
:21:04. > :21:11.relied to get that right to send that they were not workable. Having
:21:11. > :21:15.said that, there are issues, and one is technical but important, because
:21:15. > :21:21.the police and the intelligence agencies have told me that to match
:21:21. > :21:31.a single individual IP address... Are you in favour of that? We are
:21:31. > :21:40.
:21:40. > :21:44.continuing to work on that. Bernard what he wants. I have quotes from
:21:44. > :21:48.the greater Manchester Chief Constable. It is important. I'm not
:21:48. > :21:54.stopping the police and the intelligence services using very
:21:54. > :22:01.considerable powers to keep and analyse communications data to keep
:22:01. > :22:09.us safe. But we already have... As I say, there is no point having a
:22:09. > :22:14.political debate, and joint committee MPs examined these
:22:14. > :22:18.proposals already and came up with an excoriating report saying that a
:22:18. > :22:21.significant amount of them were not proportionate or workable. You have
:22:21. > :22:25.to come up with things that are acceptable to the public. Of course,
:22:25. > :22:29.you have to allow the police and intelligence services to have the
:22:29. > :22:36.tools they need to keep us safe. I have said that we should continue to
:22:36. > :22:42.work and we will as a government on this issue. There are not enough IP
:22:42. > :22:49.address is to go around. We will crack that one. The other measures
:22:49. > :22:54.the proposed work in my judgement, and in the judgement of the court
:22:54. > :23:04.cross-party -- cross-party committee deemed to be not workable or
:23:04. > :23:09.proportionate. #ColourWhite Abu Qatada, you made it clear that it
:23:09. > :23:11.was a nonstarter to suspend our membership of the European Union. I
:23:11. > :23:14.spoke to Theresa May and she addressed the House of Commons.
:23:14. > :23:24.There is no proposal on the table for us to start acting illegally
:23:24. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:32.ought to start advocating... Nobody has put a proposal to me. If they
:23:32. > :23:39.did, you would be against it? this week, we have entered into a
:23:39. > :23:42.new treaty with Jordan. Let me finish, she says, as she said to the
:23:42. > :23:46.House of Commons, that if we want to deal with the legal impediment
:23:46. > :23:50.inventing us from getting rid of this man, I want this man out of the
:23:50. > :23:53.country as much of anybody -- as much as anybody in government, and
:23:53. > :23:58.she says the way to do that is by addressing concerns about due
:23:59. > :24:07.process in Jordan. And she's doing that. She tells me that that is the
:24:07. > :24:13.most promising route to deal with this guy. There is another pull --
:24:14. > :24:16.and other illegal immigrants, a convicted drug dealer, defeating
:24:16. > :24:19.attempts of the portion because of a right to family life will stop this
:24:19. > :24:23.is a man who has abandoned the children in the two mothers by whom
:24:23. > :24:30.he had these. And yet the court is giving him the right to family life
:24:30. > :24:35.will stop I understand the right... Does that Mac -- does that make you
:24:35. > :24:40.angry? The right decisions taken by judges than ideal not right. --
:24:40. > :24:45.there are decisions. There is the rule of law that protect everybody.
:24:45. > :24:52.Sometimes it means that you get these judgements that people do not
:24:52. > :24:55.accept. But these are judgements, taken by British judges on British
:24:55. > :24:59.legislation, drafted on the basis of a convention of human rights
:24:59. > :25:03.originally drafted by British lawyers under Churchill. The idea
:25:03. > :25:08.that somehow there is something alien being opposed is a little
:25:08. > :25:11.misleading. That does not mean that we can have a legitimate public
:25:11. > :25:15.debate -- that we can have a legitimate public debate about how
:25:15. > :25:21.the provisions work. You exist being overshadowed by UKIP in these
:25:21. > :25:29.elections? I am slightly amused that people think the is a link between
:25:29. > :25:35.us and UKIP. You used to be the insurgents and now you are the
:25:35. > :25:39.establishment. They are the insurgents. Of course it is
:25:39. > :25:43.seductive for people to say that they will vote for that lot who say
:25:43. > :25:48.to hell with mainstream politics. I think the more you look at UKIP in
:25:48. > :25:51.terms of what they stand for, people will be less attractive when they
:25:51. > :25:55.see that UKIP's stands in favour of cuts would be cuts to schools and
:25:55. > :26:00.hospitals, and their tax policy means that people will pay the
:26:00. > :26:03.syntax as rich people. They want to jeopardise up to 3 million jobs in
:26:04. > :26:06.this country. At the end of the day, there is a struggle going on on the
:26:06. > :26:09.right of politics between the Conservative party and UKIP will
:26:09. > :26:16.stop the Liberal Democrats stand squarely as the party which
:26:16. > :26:21.offers... Behind UKIP in the polls. They are ahead of you. Let's look at
:26:21. > :26:25.what has happened. In the most ferociously contested poll,
:26:25. > :26:30.Eastleigh, we won and they did not. In local by-elections up and down
:26:30. > :26:34.the country, we have actually won the net gains against both the Lib
:26:34. > :26:40.Dems that the Labour and Conservative parties. In my view,
:26:40. > :26:45.travelling around the country honestly -- constantly... But you
:26:45. > :26:51.are losing councillors. We actually gained councillors. Except that
:26:51. > :26:55.these are a tough round of elections. -- I accept. We are
:26:55. > :26:57.emerging as the only party in the centre of politics, given that the
:26:57. > :27:01.centre ground has been vacated by Labour to the left and the
:27:01. > :27:06.Conservatives to the right, we the only party saying that if you want
:27:06. > :27:10.to do the tough things to repair the economy, but do so fairly, in a fear
:27:10. > :27:16.society, enabling everyone to get on, we are the party for you. -- in
:27:16. > :27:24.a fear society. One final question, Iain Duncan-Smith suggested that it
:27:24. > :27:28.off Orwell the pensioners, not just better off, should give back tax
:27:28. > :27:34.payer funded benefits like the bus pass and TV licence and winter fuel
:27:34. > :27:37.allowance. What say you? I do not think it is reasonable to say to a
:27:37. > :27:40.working family who have just had their child benefit taken away, why
:27:40. > :27:44.should they, through their taxes, pay for the multimillionaire
:27:44. > :27:50.pensioner living next door for his TV licence and winter fuel payment?
:27:50. > :27:53.I think we should grasp this nettle as we have other difficult levels.
:27:54. > :27:59.The Conservatives do not want to do so and that is a difference of
:27:59. > :28:03.approach. We believe that welfare reform starts at the top and works
:28:03. > :28:06.down. You do not start from the bottom and work up. The idea of
:28:06. > :28:11.saying that in the meantime you give people benefits and then you say,
:28:11. > :28:14.please give them back, I think that does not make sense. When money is
:28:14. > :28:20.tight, you have to have the right priorities. I think it is right to
:28:20. > :28:25.ask wealthy people, may be multimillionaires to make sacrifices
:28:25. > :28:28.as we are asking families on low incomes. Thank you for being with us
:28:28. > :28:33.today and going through these questions. Thursday 's election
:28:33. > :28:37.could well be challenging for the Lib Dems. It is quite a test for the
:28:37. > :28:40.Tories, too, because the last time the seats were fought, Conservatives
:28:40. > :28:43.were flying high in opposition and labour was plummeting. Local
:28:43. > :28:48.elections are also a time for smaller parties like the Green party
:28:48. > :28:52.and UKIP to flourish it began. We have been to England's South Coast
:28:52. > :28:59.to find out how the smaller parties plan to operate a solution voters a
:28:59. > :29:03.new place to go. -- offer dissolution voters. --
:29:03. > :29:07.disillusioned. There are not any local elections happening in
:29:07. > :29:10.Brighton but there is a festival of music themed sand sculpture, and it
:29:10. > :29:15.is a good place to look at the tactics of one of the parties hoping
:29:15. > :29:20.to make an impact. The Green party has been digging in here for years
:29:21. > :29:26.and it has worked. In 2010, this place gave them their first-ever MP.
:29:26. > :29:30.In 2011, they became the largest party on the council. That means
:29:30. > :29:35.they have a concrete record that they can build on elsewhere. And it
:29:35. > :29:38.is not just things like these cycle lanes. The bedroom tax was brought
:29:38. > :29:42.in by central government and we said that we would not evict people if
:29:42. > :29:46.they came to the point where they were facing eviction simply because
:29:46. > :29:53.they cannot pay the bedroom tax. That becomes a flagship for what
:29:53. > :30:01.other parties elsewhere might look at doing. And the government would
:30:01. > :30:05.call it a change to the benefit system rather than a bedroom tax.
:30:05. > :30:11.Out in the leafy parts of Sussex, like this village, it is less green
:30:11. > :30:18.and more true blue. But UKIP are on the march. The last time these seats
:30:18. > :30:22.were fought, UKIP fielded candidates in fewer than half of the warts.
:30:22. > :30:26.This time around, there is a UKIP candidate in every single one. --
:30:26. > :30:32.have awards. Even though the came second in the Eastleigh by-election,
:30:32. > :30:36.UKIP still has not at the local level. They are hoping that voters
:30:36. > :30:41.will follow in the footsteps of Roger Harper, the district
:30:41. > :30:45.councillor who defected from the Tories. What became obvious in
:30:45. > :30:50.talking to members, these footsoldiers on the were fading.
:30:50. > :30:56.They were disappearing. -- these foot shoulders on the streets were
:30:56. > :31:00.fading. They were disillusioned with gay marriage and the police and
:31:00. > :31:06.crime commission, with wind farms, and those are all things that
:31:06. > :31:09.resonated with me. Nationally, the parties fielding three times as many
:31:09. > :31:16.candidates as they did in 2009, but that has brought some admin
:31:16. > :31:20.problems. Here, they missed the deadline for nominated a -- for
:31:20. > :31:24.nominating a candidate and they forgot to sample the postal votes. A
:31:24. > :31:31.candidate in the neighbouring village was suspended for comments
:31:31. > :31:34.about the Holocaust. On the south coast, UKIP and the Greens are not
:31:34. > :31:41.fighting over the same political territory, but they are competing
:31:41. > :31:43.for the votes of people who look at the larger parties and think, none
:31:43. > :31:48.of the above. So, votes up for grabs. Who can win
:31:48. > :31:58.them? MP and former Green party leader Caroline Lucas and deputy
:31:58. > :31:58.
:31:58. > :32:02.leader of UKIP, Paul Nuttall, join me go head-to-head.
:32:02. > :32:06.Paul Nuttall, let me come to you first, because you are in the news
:32:06. > :32:10.this morning. Your party seems to be in disarray as you had to these
:32:10. > :32:15.local elections. Even one of your own leaders says getting your
:32:15. > :32:19.candidates together is like herding cats. They need to get off their
:32:19. > :32:25.hobbyhorses. Well, I don't think we are in disarray. That is a bit
:32:25. > :32:31.unfair. We are a young, growing party. There are teething problems.
:32:31. > :32:34.But this has been a concerted attack by the establishment. It is part of
:32:34. > :32:39.a dirty tricks campaign by the Conservative Party over the past 24
:32:39. > :32:46.hours, and I think it is rather sad. It is things like this which turned
:32:46. > :32:50.people off politics and ensures that voter turnout goes down. What
:32:50. > :32:53.evidence is there that you are a victim of Tory dirty tricks? Because
:32:53. > :32:58.we have the 100 page dossier that the Conservative Party Central
:32:58. > :33:02.office handed to a national newspaper on Friday. The
:33:02. > :33:07.Conservatives have got people doing these kind of dirty tricks, going
:33:07. > :33:11.through the private lives of our candidates, going back two years on
:33:11. > :33:21.social media. We are not going to respond. Caroline Lucas, they are on
:33:21. > :33:24.
:33:24. > :33:26.the front page. They are the new insurgents. Are they in danger of
:33:26. > :33:29.overshadowing you? They are certainly doing well at the moment,
:33:29. > :33:33.and I would not mind some of the wealthy backing they have from big
:33:33. > :33:35.business. If we had that, we could be doing a good job as well. So I am
:33:35. > :33:42.envious of that. Which big businesses are backing UKIP? They
:33:42. > :33:47.have a lot of wealthy backers. are they? I don't have the names.
:33:47. > :33:50.But I have been reading about the hundreds of thousands that go into
:33:50. > :33:54.the UKIP covers. You only have to look around the country to see the
:33:54. > :33:58.number of billboards they have been able to afford. When you have more
:33:58. > :34:03.money, you can make a bigger impact. But we are making progress. We are
:34:03. > :34:08.hoping to build on the strong position we have in places like
:34:08. > :34:13.Oxford shirt, Suffolk and Norfolk, hopefully winning our first seats in
:34:13. > :34:17.Essex and Cornwall. We have 140 councillors on principal authorities
:34:17. > :34:20.now. We hope to increase that number. When we get the chance to
:34:20. > :34:26.explain our policies on the doorsteps, people like what they
:34:26. > :34:30.hear. Paul Nuttall, your candidates are not all surviving scrutiny. Is
:34:30. > :34:34.there a danger that your policies will not survive when they get the
:34:34. > :34:40.same scrutiny, because they don't add up? I am happy for people to
:34:40. > :34:46.look at our policies. But I am not happy for people to start delving
:34:46. > :34:50.into the backgrounds and lives of people who are just local people.
:34:50. > :34:54.This is not a general election. It is not a European election. These
:34:54. > :34:57.are local people putting their heads above the parapet, and if the
:34:57. > :35:07.Conservative Party and Labour Party are going to try to delve into their
:35:07. > :35:07.
:35:07. > :35:10.pasts and all they can find is a problem with 0.5% of our
:35:10. > :35:12.candidates... But if they have neofascist pasts, shouldn't we know
:35:12. > :35:16.that? Not all of them have neofascist sympathies. But what
:35:16. > :35:19.about the ones that do? We are the only political party in Britain that
:35:19. > :35:23.has it written into its constitution that if you have been a member of a
:35:23. > :35:26.far right organisation, you can never be a member of UKIP. The
:35:26. > :35:36.difference between ourselves and the Labour Party is this. When we find
:35:36. > :35:38.
:35:38. > :35:40.members who have been in the BNP, we kick them out. There members who are
:35:40. > :35:44.ex-BNP councillors. We will not take lessons from anyone else on fighting
:35:44. > :35:49.the far right. Caroline Lucas, there is a time for everything. And at
:35:49. > :35:53.least in the short to medium term, your time has come and gone.
:35:53. > :35:56.Greenery was fashionable. The main parties were tripping over
:35:56. > :36:03.themselves to emulate you. Now we are in a seemingly never-ending
:36:03. > :36:07.recession, jobs are scarce, living standards are squeezed. UKIP is the
:36:07. > :36:10.coming force and you are in decline. It is a funny time for you to say
:36:10. > :36:18.that, just a year after we have won our first council and two years
:36:18. > :36:22.after we got our first MP. UKIP doesn't have any MPs. The
:36:22. > :36:26.environment has to be at the top of the agenda. We need to invest in
:36:26. > :36:31.clean energy not just because of the environmental reasons, but because
:36:31. > :36:36.it would generate lots of jobs. But also, as you heard on that clip, we
:36:36. > :36:42.are fighting the bedroom tax and this onslaught of attacks on poorer
:36:42. > :36:47.people. Here in Brighton and Hove, we will pledge not to evict people
:36:47. > :36:50.from their homes because of the bedroom tax. We are trying to
:36:50. > :36:56.implement a living wage. But don't you have to be left-wing to vote
:36:56. > :36:59.Green? All your parties are to the left of Labour. It is not hard to be
:36:59. > :37:06.left of Labour Right now, because they have moved so far to the
:37:07. > :37:12.centre. I think left and right is not helpful terminology. Labour have
:37:12. > :37:16.security issues that are to the right of Ken Clarke. Our message is
:37:16. > :37:20.that if you care about making sure we have a fairer society, a cleaner
:37:20. > :37:25.environment, more jobs, more strong local economies, the way to do that
:37:25. > :37:29.is to vote Green. I assume you will start vetting your general election
:37:29. > :37:39.candidates after what has happened. What would be success for you on
:37:39. > :37:47.Thursday? We just don't know. Things are up in the air at the moment. I
:37:47. > :37:53.have never seen politics so fluid in my lifetime. Membership is at around
:37:53. > :38:03.27,000 at the moment, and we are at 70% in the polls. All bets are off.
:38:03. > :38:08.17? You have picked the best pole! You can't give as a yardstick to
:38:08. > :38:13.judge you by? I am not going to try and predict. But I think we will do
:38:13. > :38:19.well and our vote share will be up significantly. Caroline Lucas, what
:38:19. > :38:22.councils will you be prominent in after Thursday? We hope to get our
:38:22. > :38:27.first seats in places like Essex and Cornwall. We hope to build on what
:38:27. > :38:29.we have got in Oxfordshire and Suffolk and Norfolk. But after Paul
:38:29. > :38:35.Nuttall has been defending the background of his candidates, people
:38:35. > :38:38.should be worried about their policies. They have an MEP who says
:38:38. > :38:43.that any sane businessman should not be employing women of childbearing
:38:43. > :38:49.years because they would have to pay maternity pay. They have a culture
:38:49. > :38:56.spokesperson who says that gay adoption is child abuse. Poor people
:38:56. > :39:01.will be paying more percentagewise in terms of tax... Paul, you have
:39:01. > :39:07.the final 20 seconds. If people want to vote for us, they should look at
:39:08. > :39:11.our policies. They should. We want to give local referendums to local
:39:11. > :39:15.people. If you don't want your sports centre closed or you don't
:39:15. > :39:22.want that wind farm, we will trust the people. If you want to vote for
:39:22. > :39:30.the Greens, the lights will go out in Britain. On that uncontroversial
:39:31. > :39:35.claim sarcasm macro, we will leave The lights are still on here. You
:39:35. > :39:39.are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up, I will be looking at the
:39:39. > :39:49.week ahead with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics
:39:49. > :39:50.
:39:50. > :39:53.across the UK. Welcome from us. Coming up later,
:39:53. > :39:57.London Underground claims that its upgrade will deliver a world-class
:39:58. > :40:02.network, but it's own report has called the present system expensive
:40:02. > :40:08.and unreliable. We will be discussing that and other things
:40:08. > :40:11.with the Transport Minister Stephen Hammond and shadow attorney general
:40:11. > :40:17.Emily Thornbury. Let me ask you both about the latest estimates that
:40:17. > :40:27.within three years, we will be 120,000 school places short. How has
:40:27. > :40:28.
:40:28. > :40:31.that come about? In May 2004, the ONS predicted this. In 2006, the
:40:31. > :40:37.baby boom was happening. The last government cut the funding for
:40:37. > :40:45.primary school places. That has caused a particular problem for
:40:45. > :40:53.London. Funding was cut from �560 million down to 420 million. We need
:40:53. > :41:00.to ensure that we can build classrooms for the future. So you
:41:00. > :41:04.took your loft the ball on this one? Well, we can all trade statistics.
:41:04. > :41:08.The budget for building new schools was in fact cut by this government
:41:08. > :41:12.by 50%. If you cut the budget for building new schools and you
:41:12. > :41:15.introduce a system where local authorities are not responsible for
:41:15. > :41:18.building new schools, and instead you have these free schools which
:41:18. > :41:26.can open up wherever they want, and half of them are pinning in areas in
:41:26. > :41:31.London where they have too many school places already, there is
:41:31. > :41:37.chaos. Tell me if I am wrong, but until just three years ago, you guys
:41:37. > :41:42.were in government, and you were there for a long time. Yes, and
:41:42. > :41:47.now, we need to make sure local authorities - they are not allowed
:41:47. > :41:53.to tell free schools to expand their class sizes. So it is all very well
:41:54. > :42:00.to say that, but they can't do it. But at the moment, there doesn't
:42:00. > :42:04.look to be any panacea coming from your direction. That was her
:42:04. > :42:09.government's policy. Secondly, she can't run away from the numbers.
:42:09. > :42:13.During the last Labour government, they spent �1.9 billion overall on
:42:13. > :42:19.secondary schools and primary schools. Under this government,
:42:19. > :42:23.there will be 5 billion spent on building new schools. As of March
:42:23. > :42:29.2013, more money was allocated for this year the jury the whole period
:42:29. > :42:34.of government for Labour. Let's move on. We will soon see what happens
:42:34. > :42:38.over the next few years with you in government. But those problems
:42:38. > :42:41.should have been dealt with. Negotiations are currently underway
:42:41. > :42:43.between the government and cities all over how much funding the Tube
:42:43. > :42:47.network needs over the next few years.
:42:47. > :42:51.Government investment has been falling. The burden on fare payers
:42:51. > :42:54.is increasing. With the poorest programme of upgrades and
:42:54. > :43:04.improvements, Transport for London claims it can deliver a world-class
:43:04. > :43:08.transport system, but it's own studies raise doubts about this.
:43:08. > :43:13.The Copenhagen Metro is almost the complete opposite of London's.
:43:13. > :43:17.Brand-new, open 24 hours a day, it can feel like you have walked into a
:43:17. > :43:20.computer simulation. If I was trying to do this in London, it would be
:43:20. > :43:27.impossible. I would have to shout to be heard and the train would be
:43:27. > :43:31.moving too much for me to stand or walk. But here, it is quiet and
:43:31. > :43:38.incredibly smooth. And another difference - no drivers. When there
:43:38. > :43:41.are staff on trains, they check how people are and keep on top of a
:43:41. > :43:44.baffling array of payment methods. A better system, according to the
:43:44. > :43:48.bosses. Releasing the drivers to become stewards, they can then
:43:48. > :43:57.interact with the passengers, and it is a different job. In our mind, it
:43:57. > :44:01.is a better job. Inside the station's, natural light streams in.
:44:01. > :44:06.Pleasing design is literally a legal requirement. And the good news for
:44:06. > :44:11.wheelchair users and parents with a buggy is that every station has a
:44:11. > :44:18.lift. At street level, the Metro seems popular. What do you think of
:44:18. > :44:23.the Metro system here? Marvellous. Is it often late? It is actually
:44:23. > :44:29.right on time. Really new and clean and nice. In London, it is not so
:44:29. > :44:34.clean and it is old. Do you like the London Underground? It is a bit
:44:34. > :44:37.spooky, because you are way down. Not everything is perfect. The
:44:37. > :44:42.Copenhagen Metro had a difficult year and passengers had complaints
:44:42. > :44:48.about the ticketing system. But it offers people an experience they are
:44:48. > :44:51.unlikely to receive in London, with one big afferents. In London, you
:44:51. > :44:57.have very old infrastructure which they are continuously trying to
:44:57. > :45:00.maintain and upgrade. That is where we have a big advantage. London is
:45:00. > :45:06.currently spending billions doing up the tube itself, more than twice
:45:07. > :45:10.what we spent on the Olympic Games. TfL say that will buy us a
:45:10. > :45:20.world-class system to compete with anywhere on the globe. But is that
:45:20. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:38.really what we are getting? The our system is deemed unreliable and
:45:38. > :45:43.expensive. We are paying more for upgrade work than others and are on
:45:43. > :45:47.course only to compare amiably with them, rather than well. But how much
:45:47. > :45:51.of that is down to things that are outside of the control of transport
:45:51. > :45:58.for London and how much of it could be do something about? According to
:45:58. > :46:02.Labour, our money could be better spent. It is true that dealing with
:46:02. > :46:05.one of the oldest undergrounds in the world, there are significant
:46:05. > :46:08.problems. It has not had regular investment until recently. It is
:46:08. > :46:12.clear it is going to be a difficult and expensive underground but it is
:46:12. > :46:22.also clear that there are some old-fashioned practices within
:46:22. > :46:23.
:46:23. > :46:33.transport for London that, if they really thought about it, they could
:46:33. > :46:35.make signalling savings. Transport for London transport -- has said
:46:35. > :46:42.that there are significant changes they are going to make in the
:46:42. > :46:46.future. Clarify this, I'll be going to have a world-class system or not?
:46:46. > :46:51.Looking at the experience of last summer, where public transport was
:46:51. > :46:55.one of the key reasons of the Olympics were so successful, I think
:46:55. > :46:59.people would have described that experience as world-class. The great
:46:59. > :47:04.news is that the reliability levels that we saw at the Olympics have
:47:04. > :47:09.been maintained. We have seen a 40% improvement of reliability. Why does
:47:09. > :47:12.this report says that we have not? The result was work to do. You still
:47:12. > :47:22.have signalling systems on the Piccadilly line dating from the
:47:22. > :47:22.
:47:22. > :47:26.early 60s will stop -- early 60s. Let's look at the positive things.
:47:26. > :47:34.On the Jubilee line, we have 33 trains an hour. More than any other
:47:34. > :47:39.natural. Are you saying that we are already world-class? In some
:47:39. > :47:44.places, where we have delivered new capacity. This report does not show
:47:44. > :47:48.us as world-class. The question is, do we think the abridgements
:47:48. > :47:51.planned, the pro-Dash the programme of improvements will deliver that
:47:51. > :47:58.with the money that you have at the moment from government. Are you
:47:59. > :48:05.going to be able to deliver a world-class tube network? Those
:48:05. > :48:08.lines are becoming world-class. The Victoria line is comparing
:48:08. > :48:13.favourably to Asian natural systems. We need sustained
:48:13. > :48:18.investment going forward and the government understands that. It is
:48:18. > :48:25.crucial that we see that elsewhere. Let's explore that. As we stand
:48:25. > :48:30.now, plans across the network, where there is guaranteed money, will that
:48:30. > :48:34.provide a world-class transport network the Mac that will give us an
:48:34. > :48:39.upgraded Metropolitan line and 191 new trends. It will complete the
:48:39. > :48:44.Northern line. We have not yet got the funding secured for the
:48:44. > :48:50.Piccadilly line. We need that and we need to give certainty to the supply
:48:50. > :48:54.train -- supply chain. We need to make jobs across the economy, which
:48:54. > :48:58.we are seeking to do. We are having positive discussions with the
:48:58. > :49:01.government on that. So those lines need to be done and we have to keep
:49:01. > :49:07.this process. We know that London compares badly in operating costs at
:49:07. > :49:14.the moment, so, were the government to maintain current spending, would
:49:14. > :49:18.you be able to deliver those world-class systems? That has been a
:49:18. > :49:25.30% improvement over the last ten years in terms of productivity so we
:49:26. > :49:28.are making inroads. Of course if we had the investment that we have seen
:49:28. > :49:33.in recent years continued over the forthcoming years to enable us to
:49:33. > :49:39.finish these lines, then, yes, we will see what we're seeing on other
:49:39. > :49:42.airlines that been modernised. We will see that type of reliability
:49:43. > :49:46.across the network. And do you expect to get a maintained level of
:49:46. > :49:52.funding, given that government investment has been coming down in
:49:52. > :49:54.the last few years? I have no doubt the government is listening to the
:49:54. > :50:01.argument. They know that investing in London means grating jobs across
:50:01. > :50:05.the UK. Not just for London but for the wider economy. I have no doubt
:50:05. > :50:09.that they understand this. Let's get an early inkling of government
:50:09. > :50:13.thinking. Will you guarantee the same level of funding that they have
:50:13. > :50:21.had for the last three years? That has been going down. Will you
:50:21. > :50:26.guarantee that? I think the report was interesting. What it showed is
:50:26. > :50:29.that what is happening in terms of the upgrades that have already been
:50:29. > :50:35.done is that this is a natural system that compares very favourably
:50:35. > :50:41.with others of similar age and the upgrades that can be done. We need
:50:41. > :50:45.to know, we know that times are hard and we know that transport is not
:50:45. > :50:50.protected in the spending round, as continuing measures are sought to
:50:50. > :50:56.cut borrowing. Will you guarantee the same level of funding? Mike has
:50:56. > :50:59.said that we and Transport for London are in discussions. We know
:50:59. > :51:04.that there is a huge benefits to the economy. We have seen the benefits
:51:04. > :51:08.from the upgrade. It is a lesson that the government understands.
:51:08. > :51:17.you happy that the burden for future improvements has been moved from
:51:17. > :51:21.central government to the fear payer? Is that right? That is a
:51:21. > :51:25.policy that has been in place through the previous administration
:51:25. > :51:30.and this Administration. We are trying to ensure a fair settlement
:51:30. > :51:38.for London. That is not the case. Since you have been in, there's been
:51:38. > :51:44.a drop-off in central government spending and the burden has shifted
:51:44. > :51:49.firmly to the fear payer. Is it sensible economic? -- sensible
:51:49. > :51:52.economic. If you take the money out of their pocket, that is money they
:51:52. > :51:56.cannot spend, that is money that businesses cannot spend. The macro
:51:56. > :52:01.you are forgetting the money that was given over on top of that to
:52:01. > :52:10.TEFL last October to ensure that the deal in London was the same as
:52:10. > :52:12.overseas. -- Transport for London. The whole point was that that was a
:52:12. > :52:19.commitment from central government to London to make sure that
:52:19. > :52:23.Londoners benefited. Are you happy? Why is the taxpayer not just paying
:52:23. > :52:27.for the service that they get rather than paying for infrastructure,
:52:27. > :52:35.capital, future improvements, which is surely the responsibility of
:52:35. > :52:39.government. The majority is coming from the taxpayer and the central
:52:39. > :52:49.government grant from Transport for London. It is nonsense to suggest
:52:49. > :52:49.
:52:49. > :52:51.that that is following on fare-payer. The problem with your
:52:51. > :52:55.intervention in this debate is that there were promises about cutting
:52:55. > :53:05.theories which were not sustainable if we're going to have a world-class
:53:05. > :53:06.
:53:06. > :53:12.network. --fares. I was struck by how much cheaper it is to get
:53:12. > :53:16.escalators if you can build them and have not made for matter. Those
:53:16. > :53:21.suggestions mean that the costs could be cut by 1%. I thought that
:53:21. > :53:24.it was interesting that the government commissioned this report
:53:24. > :53:31.and what a shame that the mere had not been doing this because he has
:53:31. > :53:39.to get on top of this and needs to take the job seriously. Moody's, the
:53:39. > :53:45.credit agency, says that there is a surplus of �190,000, more money in
:53:45. > :53:50.income than your spending. Why are you raising that money when it is
:53:50. > :53:56.not being spent? Moody's have misunderstood the position. In
:53:56. > :54:01.reality, the grant from government is to find -- is defined as revenue
:54:01. > :54:07.even though it huge proportion is spent on capital renewal. -- a huge
:54:07. > :54:15.proportion. Why is that the case? If you were given money for revenue,
:54:15. > :54:21.that is being spent on operating costs each year. That is what the
:54:21. > :54:26.fare-payer should be paying. grant from government is allocated
:54:26. > :54:32.as revenue. When it is delivered as it capital programme, then it goes
:54:32. > :54:36.back to the Treasury and is accounted for as capital delivery
:54:36. > :54:38.when there are bricks on the ground and new trends. It is a
:54:38. > :54:42.misunderstanding. Moody's have misinterpreted the reality and
:54:42. > :54:50.there's not a surplus sitting around. All our funding is allocated
:54:50. > :54:54.for important capital programmes. know that, but the question is, who
:54:54. > :54:57.is coming from? Should it be coming from government? Of course, it is
:54:57. > :55:03.going from government and Taiwan to continue to get the level of
:55:03. > :55:06.investment we need going forward. -- I want to continue. We are the
:55:06. > :55:12.oldest metro in the world by far and it is crucial that we modernise. It
:55:12. > :55:17.is crucial to sustain the growth of population in London. It is crucial
:55:17. > :55:27.that we have the capacity. Also, to deal with things like high speed
:55:27. > :55:32.
:55:32. > :55:39.to. -- High Speed two. I would like to congratulate you for King's
:55:39. > :55:41.Cross. Always good to end on a condiment. Uncertainty over the size
:55:42. > :55:50.of the influx of immigration has sparked a political row and
:55:50. > :55:54.according to Westminster, there is serious cause for concern.
:55:54. > :56:00.Bulgarians and Romanians gained the right to Visa free travel to the UK
:56:00. > :56:03.when they joined the EU in 2007. But the number of low skilled workers
:56:03. > :56:08.was limited and they face job constraints including that employers
:56:08. > :56:11.had to apply for work permits and migrants had to apply for an
:56:11. > :56:15.accession work hard. These researchers will end in January. The
:56:15. > :56:19.last time the EU expanded in such a way was to those and four. Then, the
:56:20. > :56:22.government underestimated the number of immigrants who would arrive. This
:56:22. > :56:26.week, Westminster Council told a Parliamentary committee that it
:56:26. > :56:31.needed more accurate predictions regarding numbers in order to plan
:56:31. > :56:34.for local services, otherwise it would be in serious difficulty. They
:56:34. > :56:38.claimed that migration from Romania was already having quite an impact
:56:38. > :56:42.in the borough in the form of a rising number of migrant rough
:56:42. > :56:45.speakers around marble arch, and an increase in low-level crime in the
:56:45. > :56:52.area. Should we expect a major influx of new migrants in the New
:56:52. > :56:55.Year? I do not think we will see a mass exodus from bog area. People
:56:55. > :57:05.who wanted to leave have already left or have gone somewhere and
:57:05. > :57:10.comeback. With a pinch being felt across all of the services, is
:57:10. > :57:13.enough being done? The leader of Westminster Council is here. You
:57:13. > :57:18.detect that will be a problem and you do not think enough is being
:57:18. > :57:22.done to prepare. We are concerned about the potential impact. Being in
:57:22. > :57:25.central London, we are an attractive place for immigrants. We need to
:57:25. > :57:29.plan for it. I am encouraged by government statements that they are
:57:29. > :57:36.planning to look at access to benefits. That is absolutely
:57:36. > :57:39.crucial. It is crucial to stemming the influx. What about stopping the
:57:39. > :57:44.influx in the first place? It is difficult without changing EU law
:57:44. > :57:48.and the way that we have negotiated that. You have had a long time to
:57:48. > :57:56.think about this. What problem do you foresee? Is there not enough
:57:56. > :58:01.housing? If you take a family of two coming from Rumania or Bulgaria,
:58:01. > :58:05.they will be eight or nine times better off on bulk area -- on
:58:05. > :58:09.benefits in Britain than in their own countries on paid work. Who
:58:09. > :58:13.could blame them for coming to Britain? Dealing with access to
:58:13. > :58:18.benefits is absolutely vital to stemming the flow. From our
:58:18. > :58:22.perspective, we need to plan. Everything from educational places
:58:22. > :58:26.through to the House that we need to provide. But no one seems to know,
:58:26. > :58:30.they do not seem to have done the work to work out how many people are
:58:30. > :58:39.going to be coming over. We have kept in place the conditional
:58:39. > :58:43.transitional arrangements. There have been estimates of varying
:58:43. > :58:51.numbers in the estimate has been something like 16,000 year, so we
:58:51. > :58:57.have seen estimates. The government is making plans. But 13,000 did not
:58:57. > :59:00.believe it. You have asked me the estimate and I'm telling you. You
:59:00. > :59:07.can play around with the statistics if you like, but that is the number.
:59:07. > :59:10.What the government is doing is that we are ensuring that there will be
:59:10. > :59:16.access limitation to benefits so people cannot come here for an NHS
:59:16. > :59:21.holiday. We want a matron that is in place and they will be. So that we
:59:21. > :59:23.can limit the attractiveness of people coming here. I do not think
:59:24. > :59:28.Labour would have had the appetite for that. I think the government
:59:28. > :59:31.should be ensuring that people are paid in wage. I think we should
:59:31. > :59:36.start with prosecutions if people are not paying the minimum wage goes
:59:36. > :59:40.I think that people are being undercut. And let me start with
:59:40. > :59:43.people who work, because people do, I think, come here on the whole to
:59:43. > :59:46.work, but they should not be allowed to undermine anything. We should
:59:47. > :59:52.make sure we do not have landlords taking advantage of people, cramming
:59:52. > :59:56.people into spaces. We should make sure that regulation is in place and
:59:56. > :00:03.we should look at the resident thing. You should have to live for a
:00:03. > :00:05.while in the country before you are entitled to benefits. So you support
:00:06. > :00:09.the government? They are talking about press releases and rhetoric.
:00:09. > :00:14.They have not actually done anything so how can I support what they are
:00:14. > :00:20.doing? They are not doing a thing! That is clearly nonsense.
:00:20. > :00:24.Actually... What have you done, what have you done? ! #ColourCyan that is
:00:24. > :00:27.nonsense as you well know. One of the reasons why we are in the
:00:27. > :00:33.situation is that your government in 2004 open the floodgates and let
:00:33. > :00:40.them in. At that not happened, we would be in a different situation.
:00:40. > :00:44.I'd completely agree. We said a massive influx, which was colouring
:00:44. > :00:51.our perspective now. It is great in difficulties. And that is the final
:00:51. > :00:56.word because we have to get in another item. Time for a look at the
:00:56. > :01:00.rest of the political news in 60 seconds.
:01:00. > :01:05.The mayor is spending �160,000 to find out why many people don't know
:01:05. > :01:10.what he does. City Hall claimed the research will inform Londoners and
:01:10. > :01:12.make them are countable, but opponents say it will promote his
:01:12. > :01:16.own national political ambitions and at the spent beggars belief. The
:01:17. > :01:20.price for the finals at the London 2012 Olympics were too high
:01:20. > :01:23.according to a London Assembly report.
:01:23. > :01:26.It found that it -- tickets to the athletics, track cycling and
:01:26. > :01:32.swimming events were unavailable to the public for less than �50. The
:01:32. > :01:35.big week for London's skies as Hillingdon, Richmond and Hounslow
:01:35. > :01:37.launched consultations on aviation expansion at Heathrow, while the
:01:37. > :01:42.first part of the government investigation into night flights in
:01:42. > :01:48.London came to an end. Tickets, please, as it is revealed
:01:48. > :01:52.that Transport for London boss Peter Henley spent �175 on toy buses for
:01:52. > :02:00.Boris Johnson. It is thought that five of the new Routemaster toys
:02:00. > :02:05.were built. TfL claimed they were gifts for visiting dignitaries.
:02:05. > :02:11.Let's talk quickly about Jo Johnson's elevation. That is mean of
:02:11. > :02:15.the prime minister, to come between brothers. They are working together
:02:15. > :02:22.for the same end. Shame the Labour Party can't do that. There was a
:02:22. > :02:28.board of people working with Jo. New ideas for the next general election.
:02:28. > :02:31.All these bright young things coming up? These bright young conservatives
:02:31. > :02:35.are the future? I am told that number ten is like a ghost town
:02:35. > :02:45.because they have run out of ideas. They just want to win the next
:02:45. > :02:49.
:02:49. > :02:52.election. Good to see you both. In a moment, we will look ahead to
:02:52. > :03:00.the big stories that will dominate politics next week, an election
:03:01. > :03:05.which, with our political panel. There has been a shooting outside
:03:05. > :03:09.the Italian prime minister's office in Rome. Two police officers have
:03:09. > :03:13.been injured. It happened as the country's new minister, Enrico
:03:13. > :03:17.Letta, was being set warning at the President shall palace, about half a
:03:17. > :03:22.mile from the incident. Let's go live now to our correspondent in
:03:22. > :03:27.Rome. What more can you tell us? Italian police told the BBC that
:03:27. > :03:30.they are not sure whether there is any connection between the shooting
:03:30. > :03:35.and the swearing-in ceremony of the government. They say they have
:03:35. > :03:40.arrested a man who shot these two policemen, and they have suggested
:03:40. > :03:47.that he may have mental problems. But they are still gathering
:03:48. > :03:50.information. However, this is a sombre start for Italy's new
:03:50. > :03:55.government, which faces huge challenges both politically and
:03:55. > :03:58.economically. The Work and Pensions Secretary Iain
:03:58. > :04:02.Duncan Smith has suggested that wealthy pensioners should pay back
:04:02. > :04:05.benefits like free bus travel and help with heating bills. He said
:04:06. > :04:10.some elderly people could afford to pay for themselves, and he would
:04:10. > :04:14.encourage them to return the money to the state. David Cameron promised
:04:14. > :04:17.at the last election not to cut these benefits for pensioners.
:04:18. > :04:21.The owner of a building that collapsed, killing hundreds of
:04:21. > :04:25.factory workers in Bangladesh, has been arrested after going on the
:04:25. > :04:30.run. Two people have been rescued this morning and it is believed that
:04:30. > :04:34.more survivors are trapped beneath the rubble. Emergency teams are due
:04:35. > :04:39.to start using heavy machinery to clear some of the debris. At least
:04:39. > :04:47.360 people are known to have died after the collapse on Wednesday. The
:04:47. > :04:49.Duchess of Cambridge has recorded her first video message to appeal
:04:49. > :04:52.for support for children's hospices. The Duchess, who is royal patron of
:04:52. > :04:57.East Anglia's children's hospices, said the centres provide a lifeline
:04:57. > :05:00.for families at a time of unimaginable pain. I have been
:05:00. > :05:02.fortunate to see at first hand the remarkable work that they do for
:05:03. > :05:08.children and young people with life limiting conditions and their
:05:08. > :05:13.families. Children's Hospice Week is a time to recognise, celebrate and
:05:13. > :05:18.support the inspirational work of those hospices and those who provide
:05:18. > :05:28.palliative care to these children and their families.
:05:28. > :05:28.
:05:28. > :05:33.That's it for now. Our next news on BBC One will be at 6.35.
:05:33. > :05:37.So, there is a big electoral test coming on Thursday. Will the Tories
:05:37. > :05:41.suffer at the hands of Nigel Farage and his merry band? Will Ed Miliband
:05:41. > :05:45.make inroads into the south-east and be a real one nation party after
:05:45. > :05:55.war? Will Nick Clegg's Lib Dems show signs of life in their old
:05:55. > :05:56.
:05:56. > :06:00.strongholds in the West Country? All questions for the week ahead.
:06:00. > :06:05.Janan Ganesh, give me your reaction to the Nick Clegg interview? He was
:06:05. > :06:11.both well briefed and even perky, and probably with good reason. The
:06:11. > :06:15.unwritten story in Westminster over the past six months has been, if not
:06:15. > :06:20.the revival of Nick Clegg, then at least the stabilisation of his
:06:20. > :06:24.political fortunes. His leadership is no longer under threat. He no
:06:24. > :06:28.longer has Chris Huhne to worry about. They won in Eastleigh. They
:06:28. > :06:33.are good at playing up policy differences with the Tories, such as
:06:33. > :06:36.the snooper's charter that they talked about. That seems to augur
:06:36. > :06:42.well for the May election. So if he is feeling perky, it is for good
:06:42. > :06:46.reason. Surprisingly perky, given that the Lib Dems are expecting to
:06:46. > :06:50.lose seats. He said two things which were both correct and unpopular,
:06:50. > :06:54.firstly that we should not regard pensioners as a monolithic block and
:06:54. > :06:58.their benefits should be up for debate. They should be subject to
:06:58. > :07:01.means testing? Not necessarily on everything, but there is an
:07:01. > :07:06.unfairness that a family with a disabled child might be affected by
:07:06. > :07:10.the bedroom tax, and pensioners might not be. The second thing is
:07:10. > :07:15.that the rule of law is the rule of law, even for people we don't like.
:07:15. > :07:22.If you can suspend the human rights for somebody, where next? Two
:07:22. > :07:26.unpopular things that are true. the suspension thing, M ourselves
:07:26. > :07:29.dashed the court ruled that Abu Qatada could stay. The next day, we
:07:29. > :07:32.heard that the government was thinking of leaving the Court of
:07:32. > :07:37.human rights for a while, getting rid of him to Jordan, and then
:07:37. > :07:44.joining again. Then came the lobby briefing, which seemed to confirm
:07:44. > :07:48.that. Mr Clegg said the proposal had ever been made to him. Theresa May
:07:48. > :07:52.and Downing Street wanted to impress the right-wing papers, so they
:07:52. > :07:55.briefed them overnight that we could pull out of the European Convention
:07:55. > :08:03.on Human Rights on a temporary basis. At the following morning's
:08:03. > :08:06.briefing, the prime minister's civil servant was asked about this, and he
:08:06. > :08:11.said, we are exploring all options. When Theresa May gave her statement
:08:11. > :08:14.at the House of Commons, she said, we are exploring all options. But
:08:14. > :08:19.the idea of actually doing it was never going to happen because the
:08:19. > :08:23.Liberal Democrats would not have agreed to it. When they had the
:08:23. > :08:27.meeting in Downing Street that prompted this briefing to the
:08:27. > :08:30.right-wing newspapers, the prime minister was there. The Home
:08:30. > :08:34.Secretary and Justice Secretary and Attorney General were there. What do
:08:34. > :08:40.they have in common is? They are all Conservatives. When the Liberal
:08:40. > :08:46.Democrats got wind of it, they said, it ain't going to happen.
:08:46. > :08:49.there is, at last, a Johnson in Downing Street. Not the one we
:08:49. > :08:59.thought, but the one we thought may end up in Downing Street had
:08:59. > :09:01.
:09:01. > :09:06.something to say about it. B Johnson finally gets into Downing Street,
:09:06. > :09:11.not A. Helen, do we think this will make much difference to the Downing
:09:11. > :09:16.Street team? Definitely, because that unit has been headed by a civil
:09:16. > :09:22.servant and now it is an explicitly Tory unit. During the Thatcherite
:09:22. > :09:27.years, it was coming up with radical policies. At first, I thought David
:09:27. > :09:30.Cameron had done something clever, because everyone knows that brother
:09:30. > :09:34.on brother narrative has been so poisonous for Ed Miliband. If there
:09:34. > :09:41.will ever be a Johnson on Johnson clash that will help David Cameron.
:09:41. > :09:45.Do you have to be a Tory to get into Downing Street? Previously, they
:09:45. > :09:51.said Downing Street was not full of old attorney's. But now they have a,
:09:51. > :09:57.it is harder to rebut that. Jo Johnson has the ultimate
:09:57. > :10:05.qualification for greatness, which is that he used to work for the FT.
:10:05. > :10:09.That will stand him in good stead. He is tough. There are still 100 odd
:10:09. > :10:15.ministerial posts that are not filled by people who went to Eton.
:10:15. > :10:21.Did they go to Winchester and Westminster? Places like that. But
:10:21. > :10:25.Jo Johnson is a very bright guy. It is strange that you have somebody
:10:25. > :10:28.like Jo Johnson as head of the policy unit, who is the most
:10:28. > :10:33.pro-European member of the 2010 intake, and then you have Peter
:10:33. > :10:36.Lilley on the board, who is a climate change sceptic. What is the
:10:36. > :10:42.strategic direction here? Have they found a way of reconciling those
:10:42. > :10:45.views bomber or is it about party management? Let me come to Labour.
:10:45. > :10:52.The current cycle of Labour politics kicked off with Tony Blair's article
:10:52. > :10:56.in the new statesman, which was critical of Mr Miliband. But then we
:10:56. > :11:01.had the leader of Unite macro come out from the other side of the
:11:01. > :11:06.Labour Party. Where does this leave Mr Miliband now? He has had a go at
:11:06. > :11:10.both of them. It leaves him in a difficult position that is partly of
:11:10. > :11:14.his own making in that a policy vacuum has developed around him.
:11:14. > :11:19.Both the right and left of his party want to push him in the direction
:11:19. > :11:25.they want him to go. Tony Blair's article said they can't rely on the
:11:25. > :11:29.anti-politics line that UKIP have found some useful. They can't be the
:11:29. > :11:39.repository for people's anger, as he said, they have to offer a vision,
:11:39. > :11:40.
:11:40. > :11:45.and that is something they have not got yet. There was a White House
:11:45. > :11:54.correspondent dinner in Washington. It is an enormous night of humour
:11:54. > :11:59.and Delph -- self-deprecation. Look at this. I have to admit, I am not
:11:59. > :12:02.the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be. But some things
:12:02. > :12:09.are beyond my control. For example, this controversy about Jay-Z going
:12:09. > :12:19.to Cuba. It is unbelievable. I have got 99 problems, and not Jay-Z is
:12:19. > :12:19.
:12:19. > :12:23.one. I recognise that this job can take a toll on you. I understand
:12:23. > :12:28.that the second term needs a burst of new energy, try some new things.
:12:28. > :12:38.My team and I talked about it. We were willing to try anything, so we
:12:38. > :12:45.
:12:45. > :12:50.borrowed one of Michelle's tricks. self-deprecation. Could British
:12:50. > :12:54.politicians do that sort of thing? No, but that is not a bad thing. I
:12:54. > :12:58.have never been such a fan of the correspondence dinner as most other
:12:58. > :13:03.people are, not only because I don't get an invite, but because there is
:13:03. > :13:05.something slightly oleaginous and creepy about the press corps
:13:05. > :13:10.laughing at almost anything the president gutters. If this was the
:13:10. > :13:14.case under Bush and Clinton. Obama is good at telling jokes, but it is
:13:14. > :13:18.always the case. In Washington, the relationship between the media and
:13:18. > :13:25.the political class is much closer than here. The president is head of
:13:25. > :13:30.state as well, of course. When I was there, when he came in, you would
:13:30. > :13:40.stand up. You would not stand up for the prime minister. Yes, the prime
:13:40. > :13:44.minister is a here today, gone tomorrow politician. The president
:13:44. > :13:51.of the United States is the head of state. But what was interesting
:13:51. > :13:53.about that dinner was the joke about being a young Muslim socialist. That
:13:53. > :13:57.shows Obama's supreme self-confidence that he is able to
:13:57. > :14:02.address, in a joke, one of the main things that people on the right say
:14:02. > :14:07.about him. That was more than a joke, that was a significant
:14:07. > :14:11.moment. I disagree with Janan Ganesh. I like the correspondence
:14:11. > :14:16.dinner. Have you been invited?Sadly not. There was a great incident
:14:16. > :14:21.couple of years ago when a satirist in the US just took apart George
:14:21. > :14:26.Bush, and he had to sit there and listen to it. Imagine what it would
:14:26. > :14:34.be like if David Cameron told a joke. The best line was when the
:14:34. > :14:38.president said someone wanted to be a senator. Kids today. We will be
:14:38. > :14:43.back with a big stories on BBC Two with the Daily Politics next week.