:00:41. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Is this man a
:00:44. > :00:49.racist thug with a taste for trouble or a voice of ordinary
:00:49. > :00:53.people in the face of Islamic fundamentalism? We'll ask English
:00:53. > :00:56.Defence League leader Tommy Robinson to come clean. The G8
:00:56. > :01:05.returns to the UK and the anti- capitalist protestors are gearing
:01:05. > :01:07.up, we'll go head to head on the evils - and virtues - of capitalism.
:01:08. > :01:17.And it is welfare reform's equivalent of the magic bullet. But
:01:18. > :01:29.
:01:29. > :01:32.could universal credit shoot the And with me, as always, the best
:01:32. > :01:35.and the brightest political panel in the business - Helen Lewis,
:01:35. > :01:45.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt - who will be tweeting throughout the
:01:45. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:00.I must be the supreme leader. Pressure is growing on David
:02:00. > :02:02.Cameron this morning over Syria. After the US promised to increase
:02:02. > :02:05.support for the rebels after their confirmation that President Assad
:02:05. > :02:10.has used chemical weapons, crunch time is coming when it comes to
:02:10. > :02:14.deciding whether to arm the opposition. If the Prime Minister
:02:14. > :02:16.decides to go for it, he is going to have a tough time getting it
:02:16. > :02:19.through Parliament, not least with his colleague, the Deputy Prime
:02:19. > :02:29.Minister, Nick Clegg, who has been speaking to the BBC's Jeremy Vine
:02:29. > :02:34.
:02:34. > :02:39.this morning. He made it clear he has not signed up for arming the
:02:39. > :02:45.rebels at all. David Cameron has been leading the way to arm the
:02:45. > :02:48.rebels. The French have come onside and now the Americans have come
:02:48. > :02:53.onside. I suggest to you the problem for the Prime Minister is
:02:53. > :02:58.he does not have the House of Commons on side. I know a lot of
:02:58. > :03:08.Tory MPs who are very hawkish bus- stop they were very tough on the
:03:08. > :03:08.
:03:08. > :03:14.war on terror in the past decade. - - very hawkish. If there is a
:03:14. > :03:19.nervousness present amongst these MPs, you can imagine the feeling
:03:19. > :03:25.amongst Lib Dem MPs and Labour MPs. The interview with Nick Clegg was
:03:25. > :03:30.fascinating. On foreign policy there is usually agreement. To have
:03:30. > :03:36.disagreement is very striking. follow events in the House of
:03:36. > :03:40.Commons closely. Labour is against. They have not been definitive. I
:03:40. > :03:49.spoke to Douglas Alexander. He is clear he does not want to do it. If
:03:49. > :03:52.the Lib Dems do not want to do it, there is no majority.
:03:52. > :03:57.Conservative MPs wrote to David Cameron saying they should have a
:03:57. > :04:03.vote on it. They were saying they were quite wary about how the boat
:04:03. > :04:10.would go. He said William Hague over to America to come back with a
:04:10. > :04:15.multinational Agreement. What will the Americans make over this?
:04:15. > :04:21.Privately complaining that Mr Obama is not focused enough on events in
:04:21. > :04:24.the Middle East? He now says, you are probably right, we need to do
:04:25. > :04:31.something. The Americans are divided. Bill Clinton gave a speech
:04:31. > :04:41.in private last week. He was incredibly critical of Barack Obama.
:04:41. > :04:42.
:04:42. > :04:48.Over the Iraq War, Parliament was to -- was divided in 2003. I
:04:48. > :04:52.interviewed David Cameron. He made a really interesting point. He said,
:04:52. > :04:57.you critics of wanting to arm the rebels say, we cannot do that
:04:57. > :05:01.because that would mean a arming extremists. If we do not take
:05:01. > :05:06.action, the moderate forces in the opposition will not be strong and
:05:06. > :05:11.we will strengthen the extremists. He does not have the party with him.
:05:11. > :05:15.I wrote a report 10 days ago saying that George Young, the Chief Whip,
:05:15. > :05:21.had gone to the Prime Minister and said, you have not got the numbers.
:05:21. > :05:26.Julian Lewis led the campaign in the 1980s against CND. He has said,
:05:26. > :05:31.do not go in there. If you do, chemical weapons will be and has a
:05:31. > :05:36.pretty unpleasant groups. We will come back to this later in the
:05:36. > :05:39.programme. -- will be in the hands. It has been a little over three
:05:39. > :05:42.weeks since the slaughter of Drummer Lee Rigby, outside his
:05:42. > :05:44.barracks in Woolwich, but the shock and anger continues to be felt and
:05:44. > :05:48.relations between the Muslim and non-Muslim populations in some of
:05:48. > :05:50.our cities are fragile. The English Defence League has been on the
:05:50. > :05:53.march since Lee Rigby's death, launching a renewed campaign on the
:05:53. > :05:57.streets that they say is focused only on radical Islam but which
:05:57. > :06:03.often looks and sounds as if it is motivated by hostility to all
:06:03. > :06:07.Muslims. This morning I spoke to the leader of the English Defence
:06:07. > :06:17.League - a man who says his name is Tommy Robinson. That is coming up
:06:17. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.in a moment. But first, here's Adam Fleming on the rise of the EDL. The
:06:21. > :06:26.English Defence League was founded in Luton in 2009. It was in
:06:26. > :06:30.response to a protest by a local Islamist group against a homecoming
:06:30. > :06:35.parade for the Royal Anglian Regiment, who were returning from a
:06:36. > :06:41.tour of duty in Iraq. The movement spread rapidly. Frequently
:06:41. > :06:46.attracting hundreds, even thousands, of supporters. Tommy Robinson, the
:06:46. > :06:51.leader of the EDL, says the aim is to stop the spread of Islamic
:06:51. > :06:57.extremism and Sharia law. They oppose the building of new mosques.
:06:57. > :07:01.Critics say it is a violent, racist group. Many supporters are former
:07:01. > :07:06.members of the BNP on National Front. Members have been pictured
:07:06. > :07:10.making Nazi salutes. They say it is a peaceful protest movement.
:07:11. > :07:15.Opponents 0.2 frequent violence at the rallies. There were clashes
:07:15. > :07:19.with the police when supporters gathered in Woolwich after the
:07:19. > :07:24.murder of Drummer Lee Rigby last month. You'll always find a big
:07:24. > :07:29.police presence at their Damos, along with those opposed the EDL.
:07:29. > :07:33.Six men were jailed for planning a terrorist attack at a rally in
:07:33. > :07:37.Dewsbury last year. While the Government is clamping down on
:07:37. > :07:47.Islamic extremism, David Cameron has said he will not tolerate the
:07:47. > :07:58.
:07:58. > :08:06.attitude of groups like EDL either. There is a serious threat against
:08:07. > :08:12.me. Five, six men have been jailed for planning to kill us. I have to
:08:12. > :08:19.wear a bullet-proof vest. People wish to kill me. What is the name
:08:19. > :08:24.and your birth certificate? Stephen Yaxley. We could call you that.Yes.
:08:24. > :08:34.We did find your birth certificate. You were born Stephen Christopher
:08:34. > :08:35.
:08:35. > :08:40.Yaxley in Luton. I was born with a father, who is not my dad. I was
:08:40. > :08:45.adopted. The confusion over your names has a one advantage. It
:08:45. > :08:50.concealed for a time that you had once been a member of the racist
:08:50. > :08:55.BNP. I join them in 2004. When you are drowning, new clutch at straws.
:08:55. > :09:01.My town has been drowning for many years. I was looking for a way out.
:09:01. > :09:11.I was looking for somebody to be addressing the problem. When I
:09:11. > :09:13.
:09:13. > :09:17.joined for a year, I did not rejoin. I did not know that nit -- Nick
:09:17. > :09:27.Griffin was the ex-leader of the National Front. When I knew what it
:09:27. > :09:29.
:09:29. > :09:33.was about, it was not for me. Serious issues started. I had
:09:33. > :09:38.family security to hide. I have had armed police guard at my house was
:09:38. > :09:44.dug I do not get the same protection that Islamic extremists
:09:44. > :09:49.get. -- at my house. You can see daily threats against killing my
:09:50. > :09:54.children and my wife. It has destroyed my family and my security.
:09:54. > :10:00.You say you have never threatened violence against the British Muslim
:10:00. > :10:06.community. The EDL only supports peaceful protest. This is what is
:10:06. > :10:13.said on 3rd September, 2011, in London. Every single Muslim
:10:13. > :10:16.watching this video on YouTube, on 7/7, you got away with killing and
:10:17. > :10:26.maiming British citizens. You got away with it. Next time you think
:10:27. > :10:28.
:10:28. > :10:33.about it, you had better understand that we have built a network. We
:10:33. > :10:37.will not tolerate it. The Islamic community will feel the full force
:10:37. > :10:42.of the English Defence League if we see any of our citizens killed,
:10:42. > :10:45.maimed or hurt on British soil ever again. The Islamic community will
:10:45. > :10:50.feel the full force of the English Defence League. That is a pretty
:10:50. > :10:55.explicit threat. It is not a threat, it is a promise. We will highlight
:10:56. > :10:59.these issues. They are a pressure organisation. We put pressure on
:10:59. > :11:07.the Government and Islamic community. I am seeing the summit
:11:07. > :11:12.leaders coming out. They are saying the problems are per masks. You did
:11:12. > :11:17.not say you would raise it with your MP, you said they will feel
:11:17. > :11:27.the full force of the English defence leaked. You said the
:11:27. > :11:31.Islamic community - everyone who is a Muslim. -- the English Defence
:11:31. > :11:36.League. Just the same way, when we were introduced on here. You spoke
:11:36. > :11:46.of the National Front. They are not in our organisation. Bespoke of
:11:46. > :11:50.people being pictured doing not seen salutes. -- ate you spoke.
:11:50. > :11:55.Islamism is spreading across the country. People did not think you
:11:55. > :12:01.are talking about writing to your MP. They knew you were talking
:12:01. > :12:07.about violence. It makes you into a self styled anti- Muslim vigilante
:12:08. > :12:12.group. It does not at all.You are taking the law into your her own
:12:12. > :12:16.hands. You said they will feel the full force of the English Defence
:12:16. > :12:23.League if we see any of our citizens killed, maimed or heard.
:12:23. > :12:28.Through the democratic process. You're taking your own explanation.
:12:29. > :12:35.You have regularly taken the law into your own hands. How many
:12:35. > :12:37.convictions for violent offences do you have? Three or four. I am a
:12:37. > :12:42.working-class man from Luton. We should not be talking about
:12:42. > :12:47.previous convictions, we should be talking about the truth. What has
:12:47. > :12:53.got me on to this programme is not my past or history. My violent
:12:53. > :12:57.offence was 10 years ago. threat was not. Before I had three
:12:57. > :13:04.children and a family. I have done things I am not proud of. At the
:13:04. > :13:09.same time, I have been to jail. I have experienced and lived through
:13:09. > :13:16.Islamist ideology. I know that 800 prisoners are coming at a year
:13:16. > :13:21.radicalise ING our system. It is not being tackled. I would not be
:13:21. > :13:26.sitting here now. This is the EDL in which in London in the aftermath
:13:26. > :13:30.of the appalling murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. This is from the
:13:30. > :13:40.Guardian website. It explains some of the words on the screen. There
:13:40. > :13:41.
:13:41. > :13:47.are some flashing lights. Islam is not a religion of peace. It is
:13:47. > :13:55.fascist and violent. We have had enough. We support our troops. This
:13:55. > :14:00.is the end. Enough is enough. just add this up. You are a violent
:14:00. > :14:04.man with a violent record. You are a former member of the BNP. You
:14:04. > :14:10.have threatened Muslims with violence. I have not threatened
:14:10. > :14:15.anyone with violence. demonstrations are menacing and
:14:15. > :14:19.intimidating. They are full of men in balaclavas behaving like
:14:19. > :14:25.football hooligans on the rampage. You are expecting us to believe the
:14:25. > :14:31.EDL is no more menacing than the Girl Guides? Have we blent anything
:14:31. > :14:36.up or plan to bomb anything? -- blown anything. You do not think
:14:36. > :14:41.that is menacing or intimidating? There is an undercurrent of anger
:14:41. > :14:47.across the country. You need to harness and channel the anger. They
:14:47. > :14:51.want to show people, this is how we do it. In this country, whenever
:14:51. > :14:56.someone criticises anything to do with Islam, you are called a racist.
:14:56. > :15:01.You lose your job and be alienated and discriminated against. I have
:15:01. > :15:09.not use that word of youth. EDL wants to ban the building of any
:15:09. > :15:13.more mosques. -- youth. We should not be allowing Saudi Arabia to ban
:15:13. > :15:23.them in this country. You do not add to the problem. We do not know
:15:23. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:36.Again narks was a Lincoln demonstration, not English Defence
:15:36. > :15:40.League, that was another group. EDL members have been convicted of
:15:40. > :15:47.planning to burn down mosques. English Defence League doesn't have
:15:47. > :15:51.a membership. No, but they are self-styled EDL activists. Adam
:15:51. > :15:56.Rogers and John Parkins have been convicted of encouraging others or
:15:56. > :16:01.planning to do it themselves, to burn down mosques. That's a terrible
:16:01. > :16:08.thing is it not? It is an awful thing, and they were not my members.
:16:08. > :16:13.I always strongly speak out about it. I get threats every day to get
:16:13. > :16:17.my kids decapitated and no-one is arrested. I'm not arguing with that
:16:17. > :16:23.either, but what I'm saying is that it is not just that you don't want
:16:23. > :16:27.the building of any more mosques, we have clear evidence, they shout burn
:16:27. > :16:33.down mosques in demonstrations. Two of your members have been convicted
:16:33. > :16:38.of encouraging people to burn down mosques. We don't have members.All
:16:38. > :16:42.right, activists who say they are part of the EDL. People who follow
:16:42. > :16:47.Islam are planning to blow up this country every month but you don't
:16:47. > :16:52.blame that on the entire Muslim religion do you? With the English
:16:52. > :16:56.Defence League we want to carpet blame the whole organisation and its
:16:56. > :17:02.leadership for something that two morons have decided to do. You've
:17:02. > :17:06.denied any connection with the arson attack on the mosque after the
:17:06. > :17:10.Woolwich event. The truth is, we don't know, the you said it could be
:17:10. > :17:14.Muslims themselves, but we've got plenty of evidence of English
:17:14. > :17:19.Defence League supporters either threatening to plan or burn down
:17:19. > :17:25.mosques. Some have been convicted, so you would be forgiven for putting
:17:25. > :17:31.the EDL high up on a list of suspects wouldn't you in -- wouldn't
:17:31. > :17:36.you? ? No. There was 22 firebombings in Luton, mosques attacked, smash
:17:36. > :17:42.windows, council offices and yellow writing with EDL on every attack.
:17:42. > :17:46.After 12 months of hearing Islamic leaders saying these are Islamic
:17:46. > :17:53.attacks, who did they arrest? Muslims. You are claiming that the
:17:53. > :18:03.EDL is not a racist or fascist group. It is not.Plenty of footage
:18:03. > :18:03.
:18:04. > :18:07.each people giving Nazi salutes. You choose to demonstrate in areas that
:18:07. > :18:13.intimidate Muslims most. No we don't. You went to Woolwich.That
:18:13. > :18:18.was on the evening of that. We didn't, we went to Downing Street.
:18:18. > :18:24.Look at these people outside Downing Street. They are giving Nazi
:18:24. > :18:31.salutes. See again #245rks is manipulated photo. I don't know...
:18:31. > :18:37.We stuck the arm on his shoulder? ! Whenever anyone holds their hands up
:18:37. > :18:42.like that... Come on, that is a fascist that's in yew salute by any
:18:42. > :18:46.definition and they are at an EDL demonstration. We've got tonnes of
:18:46. > :18:49.pictures of people giving Nazi salutes at your events. There are
:18:49. > :18:52.serious problems within the Islamist community, and in our country that
:18:52. > :18:57.people aren't addressing. David Cameron said we need to drive the
:18:57. > :19:02.forces of Al-Qaeda out of Syria, but sorry David, you are not driving
:19:02. > :19:07.them out of Britain. In towns like Luton we have to queue up with
:19:07. > :19:14.people like these at the bank, our kids have to go to school with their
:19:14. > :19:17.kids. I'm not a Nazi. I hate Nazis and fascism. You need, I suggest, to
:19:17. > :19:22.speak to some of your supporters. One of my convictions you are
:19:22. > :19:25.talking about is for assaulting one of these men who was giving a Nazi
:19:25. > :19:28.salute. You claim to be the true voice of the working class in this
:19:28. > :19:34.matter but the fact is ordinary people don't want anything to do
:19:34. > :19:38.with you. The grieving parents of drummer Lee Rigby, the best of
:19:38. > :19:42.Britain, that young man, have pleaded with you to stop
:19:42. > :19:48.ex-employmenting his death. No they haven't. They didn't mention the
:19:48. > :19:54.English Defence League. They had you in mind. Now you know what they had
:19:54. > :19:58.in mind? So you now speak for Lee Rigby's family? They said keep calm
:19:58. > :20:01.and show your respect in a peaceful manner. That is not what the English
:20:01. > :20:06.Defence League did in Woolwich would. Two weeks after his death we
:20:06. > :20:12.were organising 60 peaceful walks for Lee. Out of those walks 57 were
:20:12. > :20:19.peaceful. The only time they weren't was when Muslims in Sheffield got
:20:19. > :20:26.the flowers for Lee Rigby and ripped them to pieces in front of everyone
:20:26. > :20:31.and it caused a confrontation. The leader of Unite against Fascism has
:20:31. > :20:34.said that British forces are justified for attack. You call
:20:34. > :20:39.yourself the English Defence League. We go. But the people really
:20:39. > :20:43.defending this country putting their lives on the line day in and day out
:20:43. > :20:47.don't want anything to do with you. The Help for Heroes charity doesn't
:20:47. > :20:55.even want your money. I know, that's political correctness gone mad in
:20:55. > :21:00.this country. I've got a friend... You are saying British squadies are
:21:00. > :21:04.politically correct? It is ordinary British squadies. It is political
:21:04. > :21:09.correctness gone mad in this country. When you hear the Rigby
:21:09. > :21:14.family for everyone to keep calm and show their respect, don't use it as
:21:14. > :21:18.an excuse to carry out attacks, and Help for Heroes don't want your
:21:18. > :21:23.money, doesn't it give you a moment's pause for thought? What
:21:23. > :21:28.gives me a moment's pause for thought is the fact it happened to
:21:28. > :21:33.Lee Rigby. We made a video in 2010 highlighting who his kill Kerr was.
:21:33. > :21:38.The fact that it is Father's Day without a dad. You have to say
:21:38. > :21:43.alleged there. We've allowed our troops to be spat at in Luton in
:21:43. > :21:47.front of their families and mothers and poppies to be burned and now our
:21:47. > :21:50.soldiers to be beheaded tonne streets of England. Our politicians
:21:50. > :21:55.are too weak. I'm not bound by political correctness so I will
:21:55. > :21:58.openly say how it is, which is why we ask for the following. People are
:21:58. > :22:02.following and it is spreading across the country. The English Defence
:22:03. > :22:08.League isn't going to go anywhere. You are so sure you speak for so
:22:08. > :22:13.many. Is I know that. Yet you won't stand for election, the English
:22:13. > :22:18.Defence League won't put up candidates. I won't, no.I suggest
:22:18. > :22:23.you are not interested in democratic politics. I don't want to be another
:22:23. > :22:28.man putting on a suit and lying and bound by political correctness.
:22:28. > :22:32.is the politics of the street you are interested in, the fascism and
:22:32. > :22:36.communism throughout the ages. Nobody you ask will tell you this
:22:36. > :22:40.country is going in the right direction. If we think it is more
:22:40. > :22:45.dangerous, 60% more Muslims are being arrested every year for
:22:45. > :22:49.terrorism. Have beautiful children and I'm terrified what it is going
:22:49. > :22:54.to be like for them. I'm not a coward and I want change. I will
:22:54. > :22:59.make sure that through peacefully protesting and highlighting these
:22:59. > :23:04.issues, I want to feel safe and that my children have a prosperous
:23:04. > :23:09.future. People in Luton haven't got that. I understand you are
:23:09. > :23:12.frightened of the Muslim threat. termified. I think many people are
:23:12. > :23:16.as frightened of it and of you and the English Defence League as you
:23:16. > :23:21.are of Muslims. What is David Cameron doing about it? Nothing.
:23:21. > :23:24.Robinson, thank you for being with us. It is Father's Day, dad.That
:23:24. > :23:30.was the English Defence League. Well, listening to that was Farooq
:23:30. > :23:32.Murad. He's the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, the
:23:32. > :23:38.leading Muslim organisation in the UK. He joins us from Leicester.
:23:38. > :23:41.Since the eshl the murder of drummer Lee Rigby, what has happened to
:23:41. > :23:46.Muslim and non-Muslim relations in this country I? We are very
:23:46. > :23:51.concerned that the rhetoric you've just heard from Tommy Robinson and
:23:51. > :23:54.the English Defence League day in and day out on our streets is trying
:23:54. > :23:58.to stir hatred in a divisive society. We've seen mosques being
:23:58. > :24:01.society. We've seen mosques being burnt. We've seen mosques and
:24:02. > :24:08.individuals being attacked, so I think that is really a moment where
:24:08. > :24:15.we need to reflect and think and we need to isolate and not give further
:24:15. > :24:20.oxygen to this kind of rhetoric of hatred, rhetoric based on fantasy
:24:20. > :24:26.rather than reality. OK. Since Islamist terrorism in this country
:24:26. > :24:31.now seems to be largely home-grown, are you and organisations like yours
:24:31. > :24:38.really doing enough to root it out, combat it in your communities?
:24:38. > :24:45.Indeed. We have been an organisation of 500 affiliates. Our message is
:24:45. > :24:49.loud and clear, day in and day out from all the pulpits, there is no
:24:50. > :24:54.justification or basis for extremist violence in this country or any
:24:54. > :24:58.decent society or in our faith or scripture or practice or history.
:24:58. > :25:01.Are you sure you know what all the Imams are telling the people in the
:25:01. > :25:09.mosques? Are you sure you know the message that is being spread in all
:25:09. > :25:14.of the mosques? Indeed. The Imams, the extremists that we have heard in
:25:14. > :25:19.the media, on BBC studios and other studios, they are the extreme
:25:19. > :25:23.tooipss who, there is no mosques available for them. They do not find
:25:23. > :25:29.any pulpits. They are ex-included from the mosques and they were given
:25:29. > :25:34.their oxygen from the media. This is our main complaint, that those
:25:34. > :25:39.extremists who do not find places in our mosques, in our Imams who
:25:39. > :25:45.counter them, they end up on the front pages of our tabloid and other
:25:45. > :25:50.newspapers. All right. But isn't it fair to say that one of the reasons
:25:50. > :25:55.why Islamist extremism thrives in corners of this country is because
:25:55. > :26:01.too many British Muslims live in closed all-Muslim communities? Don't
:26:01. > :26:06.we need more integration? I think we need to really... There is a problem
:26:06. > :26:14.definitely. One attack is too many from our perspective or anyone's
:26:14. > :26:17.perspective, and therefore we must investigate, we must look and find
:26:17. > :26:22.evidence-based strategies how to counter it. I've heard that language
:26:22. > :26:26.is an issue, that we are not integrating, but we've found most of
:26:26. > :26:30.these attackers spoke perfectly good English. We've talked about faith
:26:30. > :26:35.schools but we are hearing it is not faith schools but failed schools
:26:35. > :26:38.that are causing the problem. Similarly sometimes conservatism,
:26:38. > :26:42.traditional practice of Islam confused with extremism. What we
:26:42. > :26:46.need to understand is extremism breeds and develops in the margins
:26:46. > :26:51.and gaps of society. The Muslim Council of Britain has always argued
:26:51. > :26:55.we must engage in civic society, in political systems and processes of
:26:55. > :26:59.this country, and we must draw people in. OK. Can I finally - sorry
:26:59. > :27:04.to interrupt. Can I get your quick reaction to the attacks of people in
:27:04. > :27:09.a Birmingham mosque, which we read about this morning? It doesn't seem
:27:09. > :27:12.in anyway to involve the EDL, but a Somali with a machete. What's your
:27:12. > :27:19.reaction to what happened inside this mosque? Four people, including
:27:19. > :27:22.a policeman, now in hospital. too early to comment. It seems like
:27:22. > :27:27.another deranged person who seemed to have an internal conflict of some
:27:27. > :27:30.sort. I read the news on the BBC be. I don't have the full details yet,
:27:30. > :27:38.but it seems like some kind of but it seems like some kind of
:27:38. > :27:42.domestic issue or local issue. Some individuals, a fight. We have crime,
:27:42. > :27:46.knife attacks et cetera on the streets of Britain day in and day
:27:46. > :27:51.out in many towns and cities. It is too early to jump to conclusions but
:27:51. > :27:55.we must look into it. Mr Farooq Murad, there are for joining us from
:27:55. > :27:58.Leicester Thank you. Now, the Government has been pretty
:27:58. > :28:00.busy when it comes to welfare, introducing the benefit cap,
:28:00. > :28:03.imposing tougher conditions on housing and incapacity benefits and
:28:03. > :28:06.limiting the amount benefits rise to below inflation. But the really big
:28:06. > :28:09.one - universal credit - is still to come, with launch planned for
:28:09. > :28:13.October. This reform, the Government hope, is the real welfare game
:28:13. > :28:23.changer, but is it on track, and will it work? Gyles Dilnot has been
:28:23. > :28:27.
:28:27. > :28:32.finding out. In the most ambitious change to welfare for 60 years, the
:28:32. > :28:36.Government is attempting something new. To cover the vast complexity of
:28:36. > :28:41.the lives and needs of those on benefits, both in and out of work,
:28:41. > :28:45.with a simple, more flexible, cheaper to administer system which,
:28:45. > :28:51.as they put it, makes work pay. The Government are taking income
:28:51. > :28:54.support, income-based job-seeker's allowance, income-related Employment
:28:54. > :28:58.and Support Allowance, housing benefit, child tax credits and
:28:58. > :29:04.working tax credits and rolling them all into one - universal credit. It
:29:04. > :29:08.gets paid monthly, just so it mimics salaried work. And you get less than
:29:08. > :29:14.what you earn when you are in work. Politically most people liked the
:29:14. > :29:18.idea. It is doing it so it really works where the debate starts.
:29:18. > :29:22.Universal credit in some form rolls out nationally in October. Four
:29:22. > :29:27.areas are piloting the change, covering an estimated 7,000
:29:27. > :29:30.claimants, but they are the least complicated cases. Single,
:29:30. > :29:38.childless, new job-seeker's allowance claimants who claim no
:29:38. > :29:48.other benefits. This is what modern private sector IT looks like, and IT
:29:48. > :30:03.
:30:03. > :30:13.The Department for work and pensions is aiming for 80% of
:30:13. > :30:14.
:30:14. > :30:18.claims to be online. If someone works, even for a short amount of
:30:18. > :30:24.time, it is worth their while and they remain in the system.
:30:24. > :30:29.government deliver IT change on this scale? I believe they can. The
:30:29. > :30:33.benefit system is incredibly complicated. The major projects
:30:33. > :30:40.Authority looked at universal credit in September of last year.
:30:40. > :30:46.Back then, it was graded amber/ red. It means successful delivery of the
:30:46. > :30:50.project is in doubt. Urgent action is needed. In May, the Government
:30:50. > :30:54.responded. Significant progress has been made in the delivery of
:30:54. > :30:57.universal credit. The pathfinder was successfully launched and we
:30:57. > :31:03.are on course to stop the progressive national roll-out of
:31:03. > :31:07.universal credit in October. -- to start. One MP is Warwick was that
:31:07. > :31:13.he is about to publish a book on the chequered history of a large
:31:13. > :31:17.government projects. -- is worried. The idea that the way to get this
:31:17. > :31:25.right is to say everything is going fine and there are no problems, it
:31:25. > :31:28.is all on time and on Churchill. That is not something I believe. --
:31:28. > :31:33.on schedules. One theme runs through the tortuous history of bad
:31:33. > :31:38.software and that is the failure to confront reality. That is likely to
:31:38. > :31:42.be the case at the moment. That would be catastrophic for many
:31:42. > :31:52.currently on benefits. What do someone who cannot afford to feed
:31:52. > :31:54.
:31:54. > :31:59.their children look and sound like? I had never thought I would be in
:31:59. > :32:04.this predicament but I am. There are others out there who are in
:32:04. > :32:09.this situation but never dreamed of being in it. The thing is, how do
:32:09. > :32:17.you get out of it? That is what I am struggling with. I do not want
:32:17. > :32:21.to be on benefits. I want to work. The situation I am in now stops me.
:32:21. > :32:25.Exactly the sort of person universal credit are designed to
:32:25. > :32:31.help. Why does she not think being paid a lump sum monthly will work
:32:31. > :32:36.for people like her? What do they have to fall back on? They do not
:32:36. > :32:41.have an overdraft. I did have an overdraft and I lived off the
:32:41. > :32:46.overdraft. It has got so bad that they cannot afford to pay it back.
:32:46. > :32:51.You get this money. What happens if, for some reason or another, you
:32:51. > :32:57.have to spend more than the budgeted for a week or so? People
:32:57. > :33:01.will apply crisis loans. It will get worse. The Government insists
:33:01. > :33:06.it will ensure no one falls through the cracks. Despite backing some of
:33:06. > :33:13.the aims of universal credit, food banks are preparing to help more
:33:13. > :33:17.people when changes come. Last year, in 2012, we looked after 153,000
:33:17. > :33:22.people whose primary reason for needing the three days of food we
:33:22. > :33:28.give them in the food bank was that there was a problem, a mistake, a
:33:28. > :33:32.change or to lay in benefit payments. We are dealing with a
:33:32. > :33:38.significant change. We anticipate large numbers of extra people
:33:38. > :33:42.coming to the banks as a consequence. That worries us. --
:33:42. > :33:47.food banks. The Government says it will be flexible with people who
:33:47. > :33:52.might struggle to manage their money. Universal credit will roll
:33:52. > :33:57.out of right, not early. It has not yet convinced everyone this
:33:58. > :33:59.flagship policy is under control. Now, we would have liked to put
:34:00. > :34:02.those concerns about the implementation and implications of
:34:02. > :34:07.universal credit to a government minister but our invitation to
:34:07. > :34:16.someone - anyone - responsible for the policy was rejected. We will
:34:16. > :34:20.keep on asking. We are not easily embarrassed by rebuttals, and we
:34:20. > :34:23.will return to the subject in the weeks and months ahead. Now, it is
:34:23. > :34:25.G8 time again, and it is back in the United Kingdom, in Northern
:34:25. > :34:28.Ireland in fact, where the authorities are bracing themselves
:34:28. > :34:36.for aggro. This weekend, world leaders a Cabinet this luxurious
:34:36. > :34:41.golf resort in County Fermanagh for the latest G8 summit. On the agenda
:34:41. > :34:45.are trade, tax and transparency. There will also be discussions on
:34:45. > :34:49.Syria and internet spying. Prime ministers and presidents were not
:34:49. > :34:54.be the only ones descending on this peaceful part of Northern Ireland
:34:54. > :34:57.because protesters plan to make themselves heard as well. Meetings
:34:57. > :35:02.like the G8 and G20 have been accompanied by protests and
:35:02. > :35:06.violence for a number of years. Already this week, police raided a
:35:06. > :35:15.squat used by stock-take protesters in Central London. Police in
:35:15. > :35:19.Northern Ireland up on alert. Anarchist groups are protesting
:35:19. > :35:29.against capitalism itself. So, to debate all that, Owen Jones and
:35:29. > :35:31.
:35:31. > :35:35.Charlie Wolf go head to head on the I assume you stand shoulder to
:35:35. > :35:39.shoulder with the protesters. What do you want to achieve? Some of the
:35:39. > :35:44.main issues which are angering people are the fact we have 22,000
:35:44. > :35:50.children dying every single day of hunger, poverty. That is seven
:35:50. > :35:54.times bigger than 9/11 every day. More people are dying of hunger can
:35:54. > :35:59.AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria combined. We have 14 trillion
:35:59. > :36:02.dollars of tax which has been stashed away, hidden from the
:36:02. > :36:05.taxman, at a time when third World countries are losing three times
:36:05. > :36:11.more through tax avoidance than they are getting through eight.
:36:11. > :36:18.Then the issues of climate change, the human rights record of Russia.
:36:18. > :36:22.The key point is, what protesters are trying to do, in the way that
:36:22. > :36:27.UK has put tax avoidance on the agenda, it is to hold leaders to
:36:27. > :36:32.account and make sure we have a national and global debate. We are
:36:32. > :36:38.holding to recount the eight most importing countries in the world. -
:36:38. > :36:42.- holding to account. The problem with world hunger is generally
:36:42. > :36:48.local governments. You can continue to throw money at the problem.
:36:49. > :36:53.There is more than enough food in the world. I agree with you. In
:36:53. > :36:59.Zimbabwe, it used to be Africa's breadbasket. It is not any more.
:36:59. > :37:03.this an issue for the G8? I do have a problem with the protesters. You
:37:03. > :37:10.can see by the way they handle themselves was a bit speaks volumes.
:37:11. > :37:16.I do not like the word capitalism. I prefer the word, free market.
:37:16. > :37:19.Capitalism was first used by William Thackeray make peace.
:37:19. > :37:24.pressed taxpayers are having to bail out the banks. That is not the
:37:24. > :37:31.fault of the people. The whole point about free markets is people
:37:32. > :37:35.making free decisions. Free markets are a morally correct institution.
:37:35. > :37:40.This is something that Margaret Thatcher talked about many years
:37:40. > :37:50.ago. Let me put this to you Foster in terms of free-market capitalism,
:37:50. > :37:51.
:37:51. > :37:56.in 2008, when the linchpin of the capitalist system came crashing
:37:56. > :38:00.down. The state came to the rescue. That is socialism - socialism for
:38:00. > :38:08.the rich and capitalism for everyone else. A lot of people on
:38:08. > :38:11.the right had agreed to let them fail. There are places for the
:38:11. > :38:15.state. I do not disagree. One needs to look at how we got into the mess
:38:15. > :38:20.in the first place was a free markets were not allowed to be free.
:38:20. > :38:26.The whole genesis of the problem was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
:38:26. > :38:32.Capitalism is in crisis. Why is there left so weak? Why are they
:38:32. > :38:37.making no advances democratically? The number of protesters is
:38:37. > :38:44.diminishing. It is a good point. You need anger at how things I hope
:38:44. > :38:49.at how things can be. There is anger out there. The average worker
:38:49. > :38:56.is going through the bigger squeeze in pay packets since records began.
:38:56. > :39:01.What is lacking is hope. That is the need for a coherent alternative.
:39:01. > :39:08.That will give people hope. Ordinary folk, living standards
:39:08. > :39:12.being squeezed. They are paying a shed load of tax, helping to bail
:39:12. > :39:20.out the banks. Shouldn't they be angry that companies like Google
:39:20. > :39:25.and Amazon pay next to nothing? Governments right laws. They act to
:39:25. > :39:31.the laws. They are paying a legal tax. They had aggressive lawyers
:39:31. > :39:37.and accountants. Are they doing anything illegal? Of course not.
:39:37. > :39:41.That makes it worse. Change the tax laws. It disturbs me when I listen
:39:41. > :39:46.to David Cameron going on about the Irish and their corporate tax laws.
:39:46. > :39:56.If he does not like it, blow up our tax rates. Do you think socialism
:39:56. > :39:58.
:39:58. > :40:03.would ever come up in a search engine? -- lower at tax rates. They
:40:03. > :40:06.are still talking but not as bad as last week. It is coming up to
:40:06. > :40:09.11:40am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:40:09. > :40:19.minutes: I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.
:40:19. > :40:23.
:40:23. > :40:28.Until then, the Sunday Politics Hello. Welcome from us, where this
:40:28. > :40:34.week we will be looking at London's long-term needs and weathered the
:40:34. > :40:40.mayor has the 2020 Vision to meet them. Time to say hello to Jeremy
:40:40. > :40:45.Corbyn and Mary MacLeod. Let's have a word first about the fact it
:40:45. > :40:51.emerged this week that Thames Water has paid no corporation tax in the
:40:51. > :40:56.last financial year, despite making �145 million in pre- tax profit. It
:40:56. > :41:00.said it delayed payments due to investments in its infrastructure
:41:00. > :41:06.amounting to �1 billion a year. They also received a �5 million
:41:06. > :41:14.rebate from the Treasury in one year. They made �549 million profit
:41:14. > :41:20.on a turnover of �1.8 billion. Grapple with those figures.
:41:20. > :41:24.massive profit. They have a real cheek in avoiding corporation tax
:41:24. > :41:28.and then asking us all to pay for the Thames tunnel to be built. I
:41:28. > :41:33.think it is time that we thought about bringing water back into
:41:33. > :41:39.public ownership so we can benefit from these vast profits. Not being
:41:39. > :41:43.siphoned off to tax havens. We have to be careful. It is not just a
:41:44. > :41:49.major headline on something they are doing which is illegal. It is
:41:49. > :41:52.not about evading tax. They have had discussions with HMRC and said,
:41:52. > :41:57.how can we do something which means we will pay this tax but it will be
:41:57. > :42:03.delayed so we can use some of that money to get capital investment in
:42:03. > :42:07.some of our projects? There are tough times economically. We want
:42:07. > :42:11.to be able to invest in some of these capital projects. As long as
:42:11. > :42:14.it has been discussed and agreed with the Treasury, and something
:42:14. > :42:20.which is a project which is happening and developing and London
:42:20. > :42:24.needs, I think it is a fair thing to do. I have had a �140 million
:42:24. > :42:33.investment in sewage works alongside Twickenham rugby stadium.
:42:33. > :42:37.Under needs those things. How else will they be paid for? -- London
:42:37. > :42:42.needs. They need to be paid for, obviously. We're giving them the
:42:42. > :42:46.subsidy and allowing them to continue to make large profits. I
:42:46. > :42:51.think we need a bided discussion about water and sewage as well
:42:51. > :43:00.because of the amount of paving over land, building places, means
:43:00. > :43:05.there is a greater fled -- fled search. I'm not sure giving a
:43:05. > :43:11.private company a monopoly of London's water is the way forward.
:43:11. > :43:17.They have big profits. They have a big PR problem down the track as
:43:17. > :43:25.well. Plans for the super Suker could lead to �25 on the average
:43:25. > :43:29.person's or to bail. Detailed plans for that have still to come out. --
:43:29. > :43:34.water bill. We need to work very closely with Thames Water to
:43:34. > :43:38.minimise the cost for Londoners. They are paying a lot already full
:43:38. > :43:43.water and sewage. Some of those investment projects are things that,
:43:43. > :43:48.just because they have been around for so long, from the Victorian era
:43:48. > :43:53.and before, absolutely it needs investment. Why should Londoners
:43:53. > :44:03.pay for every last penny? We asked Thames Water and they make this
:44:03. > :44:08.
:44:08. > :44:12.Let's move on. You could never accuse the Mayor of London of
:44:12. > :44:16.underselling anything. This week he said he could create a period of
:44:16. > :44:23.joy and plenty for the city to compare with the glories of ancient
:44:23. > :44:28.Rome and ninth-century Baghdad. The Treasury -- only if the Treasury
:44:28. > :44:38.was not standing in the way. The spending round is expected to
:44:38. > :44:47.
:44:47. > :44:52.impose hard financial choices on made promotional video. Today our
:44:52. > :44:56.number one challenge is the amazing boom in the number of Londoners. We
:44:56. > :45:00.are going to hit ten million people by 2030. Rather than announcing new
:45:00. > :45:03.ideas, the document is a list of almost every transport and
:45:03. > :45:07.infrastructure project that's currently being mooted by almost
:45:07. > :45:16.anyone. It includes those with no money nor Government approval, like
:45:16. > :45:22.Crossrail two. It has involved some not official mayoral policy like the
:45:22. > :45:26.airport in the Thames estuary. But no statement of how our booming
:45:26. > :45:31.population will need additional police and Fire Services, both of
:45:31. > :45:35.which are currently being cut at City Hall. I do think that a world
:45:35. > :45:40.city like London needs a world class fire and emergency service and world
:45:40. > :45:44.class policing services. Cutting 10% of our fire stations and 10% of our
:45:44. > :45:47.fire engines at the same time as all this growth is going on is not
:45:47. > :45:54.really in anyone's interest. It is certainly not in the interests of
:45:54. > :45:59.safety. As I said, for a trivial 7p a week cut in council tax it is no
:45:59. > :46:04.price not worth paying. He has to go begging to the Treasury pretty much
:46:04. > :46:09.every year to get his money. That is coming up now with the Spending
:46:09. > :46:14.Review week after next, so this is Boris's pitch. The difficulty for
:46:14. > :46:18.the Mayor is this. The bill for this document comes in at billions of
:46:18. > :46:26.pounds. If the Government don't want to pay for it, it could mean this
:46:26. > :46:30.vision will never become a reality. What the Mayor might be pitching
:46:30. > :46:34.this grand ambitions to the Treasury, behind the scenes
:46:34. > :46:38.Transport for London are expecting they fully expect a cut in
:46:38. > :46:42.Government funding. It is just a question of how much. So does the
:46:42. > :46:46.Mayor expect the contents of this document to become a reality? Some
:46:46. > :46:50.of it is already happening, like the development work at King's Cross,
:46:50. > :46:54.and Google are about to build their one million square foot UK base
:46:54. > :47:00.right here. In the document there is talk about joining cringes cross
:47:00. > :47:04.with St Pancras to make a mega , to serve the new lines of high speak
:47:04. > :47:09.two and Crossrail two. But the problem is that for Crossrail two
:47:09. > :47:14.there is absolutely no money. The Mayor's key argument is that money
:47:14. > :47:18.invested in London is also good for the rest of the UK. The good example
:47:18. > :47:21.would be for the building behind bus, where the supply chain involves
:47:21. > :47:26.lots of businesses not in London but in other parts of the country. Those
:47:26. > :47:30.businesses support jobs and they involve businesses making concrete
:47:30. > :47:35.and refurbishing bits of old cast iron and creating new bits of ands
:47:35. > :47:40.iron and other things too. There is a fine-grained wider than London
:47:40. > :47:44.picture to London construction. is London really a unique case? Not
:47:44. > :47:48.according to the developers here. The same will be true in investment
:47:48. > :47:51.in other parts of the country too. There is a wider picture than just
:47:51. > :47:54.the location where the development happens. That's true of our
:47:54. > :47:58.developments in Manchester and Birmingham as well. And if the
:47:58. > :48:02.Government do take the view there are bigger priorities for the the UK
:48:02. > :48:06.than funding the Mayor's vision document, the tough question for
:48:06. > :48:11.Boris Johnson is this. If he really thinks London's future depends on
:48:11. > :48:16.the contents of his vision, will he take the political hit for raising
:48:17. > :48:21.taxes and backing up fares even more rather than just taking the glory
:48:21. > :48:25.for building lots of shiny new things? We asked the Mayor to join
:48:25. > :48:30.us. He wasn't able to make it but his Chief of Staff is here. Welcome
:48:31. > :48:36.to you. Hi.Described this week as widely seen as the power behind the
:48:36. > :48:42.throne. I don't think so.Is it true? Of course it is not Frew.
:48:42. > :48:46.Really? No. The Mayor runs City Hall. He clearly runs City Hall.
:48:46. > :48:50.This is a good example of the Mayor's words, the Mayor's document.
:48:50. > :48:57.That is clearly part of 2020. He is very much in control. So it is not
:48:57. > :49:01.the case that you supply the facts and the script and he adds that
:49:01. > :49:06.unique rhetorical flourish? course there's lots of people in
:49:06. > :49:10.City Hall providing information, lots of special specialist advisers,
:49:10. > :49:14.people having to input information into him but it is under his
:49:14. > :49:18.direction and against the targets and directions that he has set.
:49:18. > :49:21.Certainly timely in letting Londoners know that he is making the
:49:21. > :49:25.case to Government for more investment. How are these
:49:25. > :49:29.negotiations going ahead of this Spending Review? Give us an idea of
:49:29. > :49:34.what you think the cuts are going be? It is accepted there are going
:49:34. > :49:38.to be cuts. What percentage do we think? I can't answer that one.
:49:38. > :49:43.Although negotiations are going on they are still at a pretty tense
:49:43. > :49:48.stage in the negotiating process. They are putting their cases on the
:49:48. > :49:53.table. Normally, as you know, spending departments will give you
:49:53. > :49:58.an idea to plan. What idea are they giving you? I can't answer that one.
:49:58. > :50:03.It is not the moment which we can declare our hand on this. The Mayor
:50:03. > :50:07.is... I can tell thaw the Mayor is in regular contact with the
:50:07. > :50:10.Treasury. He is meeting the Secretary of State and the
:50:10. > :50:13.Chancellor. This is all ongoing work. Has he got a meeting with the
:50:13. > :50:18.Chancellor between now and then? will certainly have another meeting
:50:18. > :50:22.with him, yes. Some people say that they are not fans of each other and
:50:22. > :50:25.they could be rivals one day for the Conservative leadership. On that
:50:25. > :50:28.point, could it be said that Boris Johnson could be a liability to
:50:28. > :50:32.London, in the sense that if the Chancellor's not going to look
:50:32. > :50:34.fondly on him at the moment, and remember London has had a good
:50:34. > :50:40.settlement over the last couple of years, London could suffer there,
:50:40. > :50:47.because it is time for London to bear a bit of the burden? I'm sorry
:50:47. > :50:50.the disappoint everybody in the press. The reality is that Boris
:50:50. > :50:52.Johnson and George Osborne get on well. The Treasury fully recognises
:50:52. > :50:57.the importance of London. They've always recognised the importance of
:50:57. > :51:00.London to the UK economy. And that is why London has had the support,
:51:00. > :51:05.because if it is good for London it is generally good for the whole of
:51:05. > :51:09.the UK. We are not a city state. We are part of the UK. But they know
:51:09. > :51:13.that too don't they? And it was the case in the run-up to the Olympics,
:51:13. > :51:17.for understandable reasons, no-one wanted the Games to be a disaster,
:51:17. > :51:23.there had to be more funding in London and London was cushioned a
:51:23. > :51:29.little bit. Surely, as we know, as we do, there is ten billion pnds to
:51:29. > :51:34.find here that London will bear some of the heaviest cuts here? I'm sure
:51:34. > :51:38.London will bear some costs, they are bound to, but the Mayor's case
:51:38. > :51:42.isn't about revenue expenditure. He recognises that that is going to be
:51:42. > :51:46.reduced. Are it is about investment. And the importance of investment.
:51:46. > :51:52.Not just to London but the whole of the UK economy. We've got a city
:51:52. > :51:57.that's growing. We are eight. Four million. We are going to be nine
:51:57. > :52:04.million early in 2020, ten million in 2030. We've got to have thousands
:52:04. > :52:08.of homes, houses and jobs. Is it odd, is there a sense that a vision,
:52:08. > :52:11.it is quite unusual coming from a Mayor five years in. Wouldn't we
:52:11. > :52:16.have been better off having something like this a few years ago,
:52:16. > :52:18.because then you can start making the arguments and putting
:52:18. > :52:23.preparations in for your infrastructure projects, but that
:52:23. > :52:27.didn't happen? The Mayor's first four years were about dealing with
:52:27. > :52:32.other issues. But aren't we paying a price for that? No, we are not
:52:32. > :52:37.paying a price for, that because these population numbers are much
:52:37. > :52:42.higher than originally envies and. We only recently had the results of
:52:42. > :52:47.the census. I can't tell you how many times I've said that London was
:52:48. > :52:53.going to grow by the size of Leeds by 2020. And we have in the London
:52:53. > :52:58.Plan, the Mayor's document which he published soon after he took power
:52:58. > :53:04.in 2008. It started to show the kind of projections we've got today. It
:53:04. > :53:07.was revised again and the London plan already said we need 32,000
:53:07. > :53:13.units of housing a year. This document is now upping it even
:53:14. > :53:20.further. We were heading more towards 40-40,000. Great, you led us
:53:20. > :53:25.to that. Let us take housing. 32-40,000 needed a year and we know
:53:25. > :53:32.that in the last year your administration has started 14,000.
:53:32. > :53:36.In one year. So there's a complete - in two years actually. Are 14,000
:53:36. > :53:41.and 8,000 this year. That is not fast enough, is it? You know you
:53:41. > :53:47.won't be getting any more money. Excuse me for saying so but this is
:53:47. > :53:51.the argument used against the Mayor two in 2008. Everyone was saying you
:53:51. > :54:00.will not build 50,000 units of new housing accommodation using your
:54:00. > :54:05.funds. He did it. The crucial thing about that was he got that through a
:54:05. > :54:09.national affordability programme funded by Labour. The money under
:54:09. > :54:13.the new Government is much reduced. You can't say with any confidence
:54:13. > :54:18.you are going to repeat that number of housing. You are doing
:54:18. > :54:21.completions. Let me do starts. He started 10,000 last year. 10,000
:54:22. > :54:26.starts which got off the ground. We've got no doubts he would have
:54:26. > :54:30.achieved that 50,000. But the trouble is having achieved that
:54:30. > :54:33.50,000 it won't be enough. We need more. It is not just social housing
:54:33. > :54:40.that we are concerned about but housing across the board. The
:54:40. > :54:44.Mayor's made that clear. Jeremy Corbyn, let me bring you in here. No
:54:44. > :54:47.Government would have that much money to give to London at this
:54:48. > :54:54.crucial stage when we know it has big needs over the next five or six
:54:54. > :55:01.years. I wish this document had less of Boris's hyperly in it and more
:55:01. > :55:04.about the reality of people 's lives in London, the benefit cap. The
:55:04. > :55:08.unrented private rented sector and the appalling conditions that many
:55:08. > :55:12.people live in, and the labour market problems of the future as
:55:12. > :55:17.people are exported out of London. I want to see more council housing. I
:55:17. > :55:22.want to see a commitment from the Mayor that he will use his influence
:55:22. > :55:26.on the regulation of the Private rented sector and serious thought to
:55:26. > :55:30.the quality of jobs that are there in the future. On the public
:55:30. > :55:34.transport stuff, some of it is welcome and some of it I absolutely
:55:34. > :55:38.agree with. We need much better public transport in London to cope
:55:38. > :55:42.with the larger numbers of people. But we also need commitment about
:55:42. > :55:50.fares and fare levels for the future. Mary MacLeod, what should he
:55:50. > :55:57.be given? What do you want the Chancellor to do here? A 10% cut in
:55:57. > :56:01.Transport for London's budget is not sensible. I do think London is a
:56:01. > :56:06.city I was born in. To me it is the greatest city on earth. And I've
:56:06. > :56:11.worked here my whole working life. I do think it is the, and I agree with
:56:11. > :56:14.Eddie when he talks about it being if it benefits London it benefits
:56:14. > :56:19.the rest of the country, because so many people travel into London to
:56:19. > :56:22.work. It's the gateway to this country. My constituency in the west
:56:22. > :56:26.being the gateway to London. I like this vision, because it really does
:56:26. > :56:31.say something about what we expect of London in the future, what we can
:56:31. > :56:35.believe in and hope for in this city. Too often we hear about the
:56:35. > :56:40.issues and absolutely boar is will address some of the -- Boris will
:56:40. > :56:44.address some of the issues. But it is really important for us to say,
:56:44. > :56:48.let's think long term and see what investment is required and fight for
:56:48. > :56:52.it. What is there on the stocks over the next few years to keep that pace
:56:52. > :56:56.of investment? Well, there are issues. Whether you talk about
:56:56. > :57:00.housing, I need schools in my patch, because with a population increasing
:57:00. > :57:04.you need the services to support them. And I desperately need more
:57:04. > :57:08.schools. We are covering that in the short term with classes and
:57:08. > :57:12.supporting them that way. We do housing. I have a lot of house
:57:12. > :57:17.building going on, so I agree we will get to the levels that Boris
:57:17. > :57:24.has said he will do on house hog. But we need more than that and we
:57:24. > :57:28.need the keep the focus on it. Also the plan involved the skills that
:57:28. > :57:32.are required, how we get businesses to invest. You mentioned earlier,
:57:32. > :57:37.the Mayor has aligned himself with the recommendations of a panel of
:57:37. > :57:43.experts. He would allow or would want local authorities to be able to
:57:43. > :57:47.build more housing and borrowing restrictions to be lifted. I agree
:57:47. > :57:51.with him on that. That is welcome. I hope the Government supports it. But
:57:51. > :57:54.the direction of travel of the Government is the opposite of trying
:57:54. > :58:00.to promote the sale of council properties and at the same time
:58:00. > :58:03.encourage the development of owner cock power station. Owner occupation
:58:03. > :58:07.is totally unaffordable for the vast majority of Londoners because of
:58:07. > :58:12.this completely skewed housing market we have, because of, how
:58:12. > :58:16.shall we put it, funny money coming into London to buy up things and
:58:16. > :58:22.that cascades through the market. You said there were other things
:58:22. > :58:26.preoccupying his first term, but in terms of vision, how much can be
:58:26. > :58:31.delivered in a short space of time, in the time he has left in the
:58:31. > :58:37.mayoralty? I think this document is not just about this mayoralty but
:58:37. > :58:41.about the future of London. I would suggest and Jeremy can be critical
:58:41. > :58:47.of it, but by suggest whether you are a Labour or a Conservative
:58:47. > :58:53.Mayor, you can twist this document one way or the other. Inevitably do
:58:53. > :58:57.all Mayors become the same? It is about London's growth. London is
:58:57. > :59:01.growing. It represents 23% of the country's GDP. If you look at the
:59:02. > :59:05.South East around London it is another 15%. Half the country's
:59:05. > :59:09.economy is driven from here. If we want to keep that going, you've got
:59:09. > :59:13.to put the money into London to keep that transport going, keep the
:59:13. > :59:16.housing going and keep the system going. Were you surprised when you
:59:16. > :59:22.heard that the Mayor during this difficult time was going to be able
:59:22. > :59:28.to find the time to write a book next year? Did you think damn it,
:59:28. > :59:31.more work for you? No, and it will be a great book. Churchill wrote
:59:31. > :59:35.soldier of his best works while fighting the Second World War.
:59:35. > :59:42.Remind me, what happened to him in the subsequent election? Well...
:59:42. > :59:46.That was in 1944, but, he still won the war. Maybe bore sis proving that
:59:46. > :59:51.men can multitask. The voters decided. He still won the woor and
:59:51. > :59:55.that is the point. Will you put in for a pay increase? We don't have
:59:55. > :00:05.pay in whiches at City Hall. We are good local government officials.
:00:05. > :00:18.
:00:18. > :00:23.that note the miserly Sir Edward West is best when it comes to life
:00:23. > :00:29.expectancy in the capital. Richmond has the lowest rates of early death
:00:29. > :00:35.- second best in England. East London fared less well. Tower
:00:35. > :00:40.Hamlets was the 7th worst in the nation. There was an amnesty for
:00:40. > :00:43.residence illegally sub-letting council houses. The leader of
:00:43. > :00:49.Kingston Borough Council has resigned after he was arrested for
:00:49. > :00:53.possessing indecent images of children. He has been bailed until
:00:53. > :00:58.August. MPs have criticised Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe over his
:00:58. > :01:03.handling of the plebgate affair. The alleged altercation between
:01:03. > :01:06.Andrew Mitchell and the police in Downing Street. He was accused of
:01:06. > :01:11.failing to keep a record of conversations with the press and
:01:11. > :01:21.failing to make any significant progress in the case. The
:01:21. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:27.investigation has cost 144 plasm pounds to date. -- �144,000. You
:01:27. > :01:33.are halfway between Richmond and East London. Do you think there is
:01:33. > :01:38.any sign of the health inequalities narrowing? Everything points in the
:01:38. > :01:43.other direction. They're getting worse. Because of growing poverty
:01:43. > :01:49.and difficulties over housing and environmental conditions many of
:01:49. > :01:54.our children are being Port Appin. In my area, for example, which is
:01:54. > :01:58.presented as being quite well off, the outcomes are very poor indeed.
:01:58. > :02:03.On top of that there are proposals to close down large numbers of
:02:03. > :02:07.hospital beds in Lewisham in the South quite Ealing in the West and,
:02:07. > :02:13.in my own case, closing down a lot of beds and making redundancies in
:02:13. > :02:19.my local hospital. It is very difficult to close this gap -
:02:19. > :02:25.albeit you represent a relatively affluent part of West London.
:02:25. > :02:32.have my issues in terms of TB, diabetes, childhood obesity. Issues
:02:32. > :02:37.I am trying to buy back on. It is a role for us as MPs, we feel we are
:02:37. > :02:43.not getting the health care service our residents need and we should be
:02:43. > :02:48.fighting for it. That is something we do. We do not want the postcode
:02:48. > :02:54.lottery. The reality on health is, there certainly is a real issue in
:02:54. > :03:00.terms of poverty and smoking, what you are eating. All this affects
:03:01. > :03:04.your health. We need to make sure we're tackling some of that. A 45
:03:04. > :03:14.second conversation from Andrew Mitchell and nine months later, at
:03:14. > :03:21.
:03:21. > :03:30.In a moment, we'll look ahead to the big stories that will dominate
:03:30. > :03:34.politics next week with our political panel. Now for the news.
:03:34. > :03:39.Good afternoon. David Cameron will hold talks in London today with
:03:40. > :03:47.Vladimir Putin. The conflict in Syria is expected to dominate
:03:47. > :03:53.discussions. The Russians have said the American claims of chemical
:03:53. > :03:57.weapons used are fabricated. Here is a political correspondent.
:03:57. > :04:03.Northern Ireland is getting ready. The G8 summit starts tomorrow.
:04:03. > :04:07.World leaders start arriving later today. Syria is likely to be the
:04:07. > :04:12.big talking point. Russia strongly opposes the idea of arming the
:04:12. > :04:17.opposition, which is exactly what the United States, France and the
:04:17. > :04:21.UK are now considering. The Prime Minister is doing his best to find
:04:21. > :04:25.common ground with President Putin, ahead of their talks in Downing
:04:25. > :04:29.Street this afternoon. The option we all want is an international
:04:29. > :04:32.peace conference and an international agreement for a
:04:32. > :04:36.transitional government in Syria, that the Syrian people can have
:04:36. > :04:41.confidence in, and then elections and a new Syrian government. The
:04:41. > :04:45.disagreement is how we get there. David Cameron says he has not
:04:45. > :04:52.decided yet whether to armed Zairean rebels. His deputy says he
:04:52. > :04:56.has not decided either. -- Syrian rebels. We have taken no decision
:04:57. > :05:03.to provide lethal persistence. We do not think it is the right thing,
:05:03. > :05:07.otherwise we would have decided to do it. We are providing significant
:05:07. > :05:11.amounts of non- lethal assistance. The question now is whether David
:05:11. > :05:19.Cameron could secure the support of a majority of MPs to send arms if
:05:19. > :05:24.he concludes it is worthwhile. A man has been arrested after four
:05:24. > :05:30.people, including a police officer, were stabbed in a mosque in
:05:30. > :05:35.Birmingham late last night. What more can you tell us? This incident
:05:35. > :05:41.happened about 11pm yesterday. Local people are saying there was a
:05:41. > :05:45.dispute in the mosque behind me between two people. One man was
:05:45. > :05:52.brandishing a knife. Two others went in to try to break up the
:05:52. > :05:57.altercation and, as a result, three people ended up being stabbed. One
:05:57. > :06:01.of the police officers was also stabbed. Important to stress that
:06:01. > :06:07.all those injured are in hospital but their injuries and not said to
:06:07. > :06:11.be life threatening. A 32-year-old man, described of Somali appearance,
:06:11. > :06:17.is in custody. He is being questioned on suspicion of
:06:17. > :06:22.attempted murder. It is not being treated as a suspected hate crime.
:06:22. > :06:27.More in a press conference about an hour's time. Hundreds of Turkish
:06:27. > :06:31.police officers have used tear-gas to clear demonstrators from a park
:06:31. > :06:35.in central Istanbul where they have been protesting against the Prime
:06:35. > :06:43.Minister. The move prompted unrest elsewhere in the City with some
:06:43. > :06:48.people starting bonfires. There were protests in other parts of the
:06:48. > :06:53.country. The bodies of two men have been recovered after emergency
:06:53. > :07:03.crews were searching for climbers off Anglesey. The bodies were found
:07:03. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:13.in Holyhead. That is all the news for now. More news on BBC One at
:07:13. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:28.630 per pm. -- 6:35pm. Events in Syria are expected to escalate. Two
:07:28. > :07:32.big questions for the week ahead. So, the G8. Talking about lots of
:07:32. > :07:38.things from Syria to tax. Will it achieve anything? The summit will
:07:38. > :07:43.be as consequential as all the other summits - that is to say, a
:07:43. > :07:51.not very. Over the next few decades, it will become even less
:07:51. > :07:57.significant because it does not include China. The dilemma is, of
:07:57. > :08:02.the G8 does not include some of the most powerful countries in the
:08:02. > :08:06.world. The specific issue they will be focusing on this time - tax
:08:06. > :08:10.transparency and dealing with tax avoidance - is almost impossible to
:08:10. > :08:15.deal with. It is in the interests of every country to do something
:08:15. > :08:22.about this but in no individual countries' interests to be the
:08:22. > :08:27.first mover. Then your tax system becomes uncompetitive and you may
:08:27. > :08:31.lose business investment. I have to agree with that. You saw David
:08:31. > :08:36.Cameron hailing this great victory. Developing countries can request
:08:36. > :08:44.details of who owns stuff in British Crown dependencies of. That
:08:44. > :08:49.is pretty pathetic. She is saying G8 has never been relevant. When it
:08:49. > :08:54.was last chaired by us, it was relevant. It was relevant because
:08:54. > :08:58.states could do things because they had money. You could have a bit
:08:58. > :09:03.campaign and write off some debt. You have to be much more modest.
:09:03. > :09:08.David Cameron was joking in an interview on Friday about, where
:09:08. > :09:13.are all these communiques? He said it is like Carlsberg complaints
:09:13. > :09:21.department. No one is man in that office. He is much more modest.
:09:21. > :09:26.States are much more modest. He talked about Monaco as being a
:09:26. > :09:31.sunny place for shady people. David Cameron wants to crack down on
:09:31. > :09:37.secretive companies acting in secretive applications. There will
:09:37. > :09:45.be a register in the UK. Will other G8 leaders agree? They will say it
:09:45. > :09:51.is a fantastic idea and then do relatively little. On Twitter, it
:09:51. > :09:58.has gone wild over the interview with Mr Robinson. What did he make
:09:58. > :10:07.of it? I was expecting him to give you the mild hairdryer treatment.
:10:07. > :10:13.They do not have any MPs. I thought the interview worked well. We heard
:10:13. > :10:20.about his convictions and members. EDL says it has 35,000 members and
:10:20. > :10:23.he does not have control over them. Should someone who is head of
:10:23. > :10:27.something like the EDL be interviewed at all on national
:10:27. > :10:32.television? That particular interview suggested that, yes,
:10:32. > :10:38.there should be. It is not only a compelling spectacle, it reveals
:10:38. > :10:43.new facts. I did not know about the prior BMP membership. There is a
:10:43. > :10:47.strong case for giving them a platform. Three weeks ago, the
:10:47. > :10:54.British soldier was murdered in the most stomach-churning fashion on a
:10:54. > :10:58.London street. Since then, the big issue has been the EDL. I worried
:10:58. > :11:02.that British elites generally finds it easier to talk about the EDL and
:11:02. > :11:08.the Far Right than about terror. That does not reflect well on us.
:11:08. > :11:13.In his own way, Mr Robinson is an accomplished performer. Yes. He
:11:14. > :11:18.wiggles round. You got him on the fundamental points - were you a
:11:18. > :11:26.member of the BNP? Yes. You talked about her you were going to go
:11:26. > :11:35.after Islamic communities but he did actually say it. -- you are
:11:35. > :11:39.going to go. Do we focus too much on the right? Should we be focusing
:11:39. > :11:44.more on the EDL equivalent in the Islamic community? Of course you
:11:44. > :11:51.should. You should question all people with massively controversial
:11:51. > :11:56.views. What is really interesting over the last month is how Mr
:11:56. > :12:02.Robinson has been comprehensively defeated, not by you, but by the
:12:02. > :12:07.where the vast majority of the Islamic community has sort of been
:12:07. > :12:15.hugely - completely - UN divisive. There was an EDL demonstration
:12:15. > :12:25.outside a mosque. There has been a total condemnation of the Woolwich
:12:25. > :12:29.
:12:29. > :12:37.You three have always asked me, Andrew, how did the Liberal
:12:37. > :12:43.Democrats... I am an expert! How do they operate? Where does the power
:12:43. > :12:49.lie? I will exclusively reveal to you, this is the Lib Dem
:12:49. > :12:59.organisational chart. Or, it is a drunken spider, dipped in ink,
:12:59. > :13:02.allowed to walk around the pages. It reminds me of my GCSE coursework.
:13:02. > :13:12.What that reveals his, no wonder people did not know who to take
:13:12. > :13:22.complaints to. You could think that came from the be Give It A Try.
:13:22. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:33.at LEA thick of it. It is not quite as complicated as the BBC or
:13:33. > :13:41.anagram. -- organogram. This party was not in power but now it is.
:13:41. > :13:44.Clean up its flow chart. That is all. The usual lunchtime treats at