:00:21. > :00:48.do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron
:00:48. > :00:53.house-buyers with deposits. Is he merely stoking a new house price
:00:53. > :00:56.bubble? As Tory activist 's gather in Manchester, we will have the
:00:56. > :01:00.results of our exclusive survey in Manchester, we will have the
:01:00. > :01:06.Conservative councillors. I will be William Hague. And Ed Miliband made
:01:06. > :01:09.headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after
:01:09. > :01:11.headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the
:01:11. > :01:13.headlines with his pledge to freeze policy really stack up? Shadow
:01:13. > :01:25.Energy Secretary Caroline Flint Conservative London politicians
:01:25. > :01:26.Underground should be made illegal, something the Prime Minister doesn't
:01:26. > :01:45.With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be
:01:45. > :01:49.tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the
:01:49. > :02:02.afternoon. We have already been cases just their thought through the
:02:02. > :02:03.afternoon. We have already been bombarded with a series of policy
:02:03. > :02:08.announcements, a tax break for married couples of up to £200 per
:02:08. > :02:12.year, more money on life extending cancer treatments and, last night,
:02:12. > :02:20.the news that the second stage of next year. David Cameron says it is
:02:20. > :02:30.all about helping hard-working people. Right now, you can't get,
:02:30. > :02:35.95% mortgage. That means a typical family with two people earning
:02:35. > :02:43.20,000, 25,000, they are being asked, to buy an average house,
:02:43. > :02:45.20,000, 25,000, they are being mortgage payment, but they can't get
:02:45. > :02:48.the mortgage. They can't buy their flat or house. As Prime Minister,
:02:48. > :02:52.I'm not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the
:02:52. > :02:57.housing ladder, to own their own flat or home, is being trashed.
:02:57. > :02:59.housing ladder, to own their own is why we need to act. A predictable
:02:59. > :03:04.attempt by party leadership to kick-start the conference with
:03:04. > :03:08.eye-catching policies. The polls show a big bounce for Ed Miliband
:03:08. > :03:20.and the Labour Party, with decent numbers for UKIP. What do party
:03:20. > :03:35.councillors as they travel to their For the Conservatives this weekend,
:03:36. > :03:37.conference, and as a scene setter we asked ComRes to survey councillors
:03:37. > :03:44.are Finland and Wales. Councillors asked ComRes to survey councillors
:03:44. > :03:49.like Tom, packing for conference at home in Wellingborough. Immigration
:03:49. > :03:55.is an issue for him. He thinks there are pros and cons. But we found
:03:55. > :04:01.is an issue for him. He thinks there immigration has had a negative
:04:01. > :04:07.reflects into this wider issue of our relationship with Europe. People
:04:07. > :04:14.possible influx of ovarian and Romania emigrants. Obviously the
:04:14. > :04:26.issue of Europe is very big. -- are worried about the rise of the UK
:04:26. > :04:30.issue of Europe is very big. -- councillors thought that their
:04:30. > :04:32.issue of Europe is very big. -- should make a pact with UKIP. The
:04:32. > :04:51.issue of Europe is very big. -- concern is, yes, will they take
:04:51. > :04:58.talking about them. A pact? Depends what they say, anything is possible.
:04:58. > :05:08.What would you like to see? Ideally, from my point of view, a national
:05:08. > :05:13.pact. David Cameron arrived in Manchester last night. Around the
:05:13. > :05:22.same time as these activists from London. I broke the news to them
:05:22. > :05:25.that in our survey just 26% of Tory councillors think that the prime
:05:25. > :05:31.ministers in touch with the lives of ordinary people. The same at all
:05:31. > :05:35.Conservatives, you don't judge people by their background. It's not
:05:35. > :05:38.where they come from, it is where they are going to. It is not a
:05:38. > :05:40.where they come from, it is where problem that he is a bit on the
:05:40. > :05:43.where they come from, it is where side? Cull you might describe him
:05:43. > :05:49.like that, I would not use those words. Explain your T-shirt, it
:05:49. > :05:55.like that, I would not use those phrase that a senior Cameron person
:05:55. > :05:58.is alleged to have used about you? It is a humorous way of letting
:05:58. > :06:01.is alleged to have used about you? party now that we are here to say
:06:01. > :06:06.important. We are not going away any time soon. A sentiment you will
:06:06. > :06:08.important. We are not going away any a lot at this conference, because
:06:08. > :06:12.just 22% of councillors in our survey said that David Cameron was
:06:12. > :06:19.any good at listening to the people that work hard for his party. That
:06:19. > :06:24.was Adam. Joining me now from the Conservative Party conference in
:06:24. > :06:33.William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Over one in
:06:34. > :06:42.five Tory councillors in our survey large majority did not want a pact
:06:42. > :06:47.with UKIP at the next election. large majority did not want a pact
:06:47. > :06:52.have noticed that UKIP, in local been for the Conservatives. I think
:06:52. > :06:53.have noticed that UKIP, in local we have to make sure that people
:06:53. > :06:59.election they are choosing between a we have to make sure that people
:06:59. > :07:00.Conservative and Labour Government, we have to make sure that people
:07:00. > :07:14.as David Cameron as Prime Minister general election is different from
:07:14. > :07:17.the local government perspective. It is pretty unusual, some might say
:07:17. > :07:20.unprecedented, for a large chunk of one of the big parties in this
:07:20. > :07:23.country to want to go into coalition one of the big parties in this
:07:23. > :07:31.with a smaller party before an happened? Looking at your survey,
:07:31. > :07:37.three times as many didn't want happened? Looking at your survey,
:07:37. > :07:41.with statistics, you can highlight it whichever way around you want to.
:07:41. > :07:46.The point is, we are not having pacts with other parties, electoral
:07:46. > :07:49.pacts with other parties. You rule it out? That is not going to happen.
:07:49. > :07:53.What we do want is to have a pact it out? That is not going to happen.
:07:53. > :07:58.with the voters, if you like, as we have often done in the Conservative
:07:58. > :08:02.Party. We have won over the voters of other parties to support our
:08:02. > :08:06.important with those people that say important with those people that say
:08:06. > :08:09.they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour
:08:09. > :08:14.government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend,
:08:14. > :08:16.government in the exact opposite of Conservative and decide to vote
:08:16. > :08:19.government in the exact opposite of UKIP instead in a general election.
:08:19. > :08:25.That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the
:08:25. > :08:29.That could help to produce a Labour committee, the elected voice of
:08:29. > :08:33.Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had
:08:33. > :08:38.once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.
:08:38. > :08:44.Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European
:08:44. > :08:54.elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,
:08:54. > :08:58.European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in
:08:58. > :09:04.believed in. We would like that ever closer union, a concept that in
:09:04. > :09:08.consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the
:09:08. > :09:13.examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly
:09:13. > :09:14.over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general
:09:14. > :09:35.there will be a negotiation of a new the European actions but the general
:09:35. > :09:40.their area think that George Osborne to be negotiated. Only 11% of your
:09:40. > :09:47.their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.
:09:47. > :09:53.is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The
:09:53. > :09:57.important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What
:09:57. > :10:00.George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million
:10:00. > :10:06.new jobs in the private sector, renewed economic growth. 1.4 million
:10:06. > :10:10.for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them.
:10:10. > :10:13.for hard-working people, by reducing Help To Buy scheme that we are
:10:13. > :10:17.highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,
:10:17. > :10:21.I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed
:10:21. > :10:29.Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do
:10:29. > :10:37.about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people
:10:37. > :10:45.on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.
:10:45. > :10:51.Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going
:10:52. > :10:59.to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened
:10:59. > :11:02.now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not
:11:02. > :11:07.happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of
:11:07. > :11:11.Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened
:11:11. > :11:16.under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in
:11:16. > :11:20.opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big
:11:20. > :11:23.change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is,
:11:23. > :11:30.change in oil prices then the policy would dry up some of the investment
:11:30. > :11:34.in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise.
:11:34. > :11:34.in the energy industry. I don't a party that presided over council
:11:34. > :11:47.government, -- last government, a party that presided over council
:11:47. > :11:52.not very credible. Why is George Osborne going against the European
:11:52. > :12:09.Well, we don't want to see the and over this country. Can the
:12:09. > :12:12.should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have
:12:12. > :12:19.never signed up to such matters things in our own country. We have
:12:19. > :12:21.European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be
:12:21. > :12:25.decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be
:12:25. > :12:26.there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We
:12:26. > :12:33.are very vigilant about what we that affect many other people. We
:12:33. > :12:36.competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was
:12:37. > :12:42.meant to have. That is one of the referendum, do want a new deal in
:12:42. > :12:52.Europe. That is what we intend to institution, ICAP, fined for fixing
:12:52. > :12:56.the LIBOR rates. The founder of institution, ICAP, fined for fixing
:12:56. > :13:00.company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it
:13:00. > :13:09.back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own
:13:09. > :13:10.Which he made out of ICAP. As people have to other parties, people are
:13:10. > :13:13.free to do that and they should have to other parties, people are
:13:13. > :13:16.free to do that. I am not aware have to other parties, people are
:13:16. > :13:22.any plan for that to be repaid. Because you can't afford to. Let's
:13:22. > :13:26.recap this. We have seen Tory MPs parrot propaganda lines from the
:13:26. > :13:30.energy companies this week. We have the Chancellor going to court to
:13:30. > :13:34.fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre
:13:34. > :13:36.fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed
:13:36. > :13:39.Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested
:13:39. > :13:47.interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the
:13:47. > :13:53.record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25
:13:53. > :13:55.Help To Buy scheme which is going to million people with a tax cut, a
:13:55. > :13:58.Help To Buy scheme which is going to help so many people, particularly
:13:58. > :14:04.young people have the house that future. Council tax bills held down,
:14:04. > :14:09.young people have the house that welfare reform so that it pays to
:14:09. > :14:11.work. Actually, this is a government people and that will be highlighted
:14:11. > :14:36.While President Laugharne he's weapons programme. -- is talking.
:14:36. > :14:37.It would be hard to say from week to week whether it is speeding up
:14:38. > :14:46.continuing with it. That is why to week whether it is speeding up
:14:46. > :14:51.say the new message - the new words - from Iranian leadership are very
:14:51. > :14:54.welcome. I said that to the Foreign Minister in New York over the last
:14:55. > :14:59.few days but it is the actions that will count. At the moment, the
:14:59. > :15:06.nuclear programme continues. We negotiations on that and that will
:15:06. > :15:10.be a very important test as to whether actions will match the
:15:10. > :15:13.words. When will we know it if we are being strung along? He has
:15:13. > :15:18.strung as a long in the past as are being strung along? He has
:15:18. > :15:20.nuclear weapons negotiator. When will we know if he is not just
:15:20. > :15:26.doing that again? Over the next will we know if he is not just
:15:26. > :15:30.weeks, it will be a very important time. He has said there should be
:15:30. > :15:37.more transparency over the Iranian transparent in many regards at the
:15:37. > :15:43.moment. The atomic agency is asking for information that is not being
:15:43. > :15:49.given. One test is, in the coming information? The information that
:15:49. > :15:54.the international of authority is asking for about their nuclear
:15:54. > :15:59.programme. We will be able to form a view of this in the coming weeks
:15:59. > :16:05.or months. It is important we test their new willingness to talk to us
:16:05. > :16:12.important to find out whether they asking, is the nuclear programme
:16:12. > :16:29.really continuing? Are they really negotiations and offer something
:16:29. > :16:53.Council on Friday night, is the Year, Syria still has a chemical
:16:53. > :16:57.Council on Friday night, is the that allow full force? I did not
:16:57. > :17:03.catch that. Does that allow for Security Council resolution about
:17:03. > :17:11.Iraq, which most people concluded in not allow full force. It does
:17:11. > :17:17.not specify that. It talks about terms seven of the charter. That is
:17:17. > :17:21.a message of the whole UN Security Council that there will be measures
:17:21. > :17:29.- there will be consequences - if the Assad regime does not comply.
:17:29. > :17:36.has a big commitment. I have spent counterpart over the last week.
:17:36. > :17:42.Russia has said, this is something you will have to do. We will work
:17:42. > :17:46.with Russia and others very closely to check there is compliance will
:17:46. > :17:52.this resolution. Given the progress that has been made, you must be
:17:52. > :18:06.very glad that the British House of Commons stopped your rash to force
:18:06. > :18:08.against Syria. -- rush. The reason has happened is because there was a
:18:08. > :18:14.credible threat of military action. has happened is because there was a
:18:14. > :18:15.credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it
:18:15. > :18:21.through Congress. They have not President Obama did not get it
:18:21. > :18:25.the vote in Congress. There is no other explanation as to why the
:18:25. > :18:30.policy changed. It was because there was a debate about military
:18:30. > :18:36.action in the West that the policy changed on theirs. That is why it
:18:36. > :18:40.changed. We were not in a rush for military action. The boat put to
:18:40. > :18:51.the House of Commons was to have inspectors reported. It was before
:18:51. > :19:25.Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works
:19:25. > :19:28.Russian and Syrian policy changed. Government having an interest in
:19:28. > :19:34.mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have
:19:34. > :19:39.been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where
:19:39. > :19:44.houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing
:19:44. > :19:50.energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If
:19:50. > :19:59.you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make
:19:59. > :20:04.Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do
:20:04. > :20:12.anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it
:20:12. > :20:14.forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they
:20:14. > :20:17.forward and there are signs it is doing this is they want to show
:20:17. > :20:21.this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable
:20:21. > :20:26.issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve
:20:26. > :20:35.people's lives. The Conservatives Miliband's speech last week. The
:20:35. > :20:49.nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price
:20:49. > :20:54.freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on
:20:55. > :21:03.that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism
:21:03. > :21:05.to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will
:21:05. > :21:11.be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will
:21:11. > :21:18.about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the
:21:18. > :21:32.political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities
:21:32. > :21:49.Labour Party. It is about borrowing against a party that stands for
:21:49. > :21:54.Labour Party. It is about borrowing warming economic picture. That does
:21:54. > :22:00.not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything
:22:00. > :22:03.not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. --
:22:03. > :22:05.not pay energy bills. Does not does not sound. They have had a
:22:05. > :22:10.week to think about a great attack line and they do not add anything.
:22:10. > :22:33.the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike
:22:33. > :22:33.the credibility test. Ed Miliband energy prices, he would not be able
:22:33. > :22:52.it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth
:22:52. > :22:52.it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.
:22:53. > :23:01.with the election campaign, it My worry about the announcement
:23:01. > :23:06.with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins
:23:06. > :23:12.to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last
:23:12. > :23:14.week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue
:23:14. > :23:19.to go up, it will be a reminder bills go up and they will continue
:23:19. > :23:24.how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy
:23:24. > :23:29.prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that
:23:29. > :23:33.was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may
:23:33. > :23:40.be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving
:23:40. > :23:42.be making huge profit but, at the the cost of fuel is China and India.
:23:42. > :23:47.Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the
:23:47. > :23:58.people Sammir on that one. How dare last week. Dogged by criticism
:23:58. > :23:58.people Sammir on that one. How dare the summer of his leadership style
:23:58. > :24:16.announcements, and attempted to the summer of his leadership style
:24:16. > :24:18.announcements, and attempted to vested interests that hold back
:24:18. > :24:18.announcements, and attempted to economy. In a speech in which he
:24:18. > :24:22.jokingly referred to himself as economy. In a speech in which he
:24:22. > :24:26.action hero, Mr Miliband promised to switch the forthcoming business
:24:26. > :24:29.action hero, Mr Miliband promised tax cut from large firms to smaller
:24:29. > :24:33.businesses. He said he would force big firms to train at an apprentice
:24:33. > :24:38.every time they bring in a worker from outside the EU. He hinted that
:24:38. > :24:44.increasing the minimum wage would be increased. He bowed to take on
:24:45. > :24:50.developers with a use it or lose it threat to landowners and pledged to
:24:50. > :24:56.build 200,000 homes each year by 2020. He promised to freeze energy
:24:56. > :24:59.prices and reset the energy market. The next Labour government will
:24:59. > :25:09.freeze gas and electricity prices provoked a rash of headlines -
:25:09. > :25:14.hailing the return of red Ed macro. It has also given him a spike in
:25:14. > :25:15.the polls. And Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint
:25:15. > :25:34.Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In
:25:34. > :25:43.what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left
:25:43. > :25:54.companies that dominate the energy generate energy, and sell it on
:25:54. > :25:56.companies that dominate the energy Miliband recognised when he was
:25:56. > :25:59.Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company
:25:59. > :26:01.Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,
:26:01. > :26:11.all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms
:26:11. > :26:14.all the things we have done to Horsell market is too secretive
:26:14. > :26:16.all the things we have done to it is too much about such supply.
:26:16. > :26:18.all the things we have done to - the wholesale market. We have
:26:18. > :26:28.resetting the market. It has got been raising with the Government in
:26:28. > :26:32.resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which
:26:32. > :26:41.prices have gone up. Labour put privatisation. We took some reforms
:26:41. > :26:48.realised it was not working and privatisation. We took some reforms
:26:48. > :26:51.was broken and we need to reset privatisation. We took some reforms
:26:51. > :26:55.Ed Miliband will be the first to onwards. Let's have a look at what
:26:55. > :27:00.happened to energy prices under onwards. Let's have a look at what
:27:00. > :27:09.Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up
:27:09. > :27:14.by 48%. The market was broken and we saw prices biking as wholesale
:27:14. > :27:21.prices went up. The tick action we saw prices biking as wholesale
:27:22. > :27:31.the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we
:27:31. > :27:36.programme. Trying to do things around social obligations needs
:27:36. > :27:43.programme. Trying to do things be looked at. Gas and electricity
:27:43. > :27:46.presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look
:27:46. > :27:53.at the breakdown of dual fuel - of Labour policy. Beds have a look
:27:53. > :28:00.and electricity bill. -- let's have a look. The supply costs of getting
:28:00. > :28:12.it to us and so on. The policies government - Green levies - are
:28:12. > :28:25.energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.
:28:25. > :28:30.obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.
:28:30. > :28:37.Overwhelmingly, looking at your wholesale costs are worth more than
:28:37. > :28:52.half. What we have seen, based on figures we now have, in Eni macro,
:28:52. > :29:09.Do you have plans to do anything about the £112? If you took that
:29:09. > :29:12.energy. It -- we stimulate. If we do not have clean energy, we will
:29:12. > :29:18.be beholden for ever-more to fossil do not have clean energy, we will
:29:19. > :29:23.fuels that are depleting. It will create jobs and bring in investment
:29:23. > :29:35.will start in the last few years, investment. If I could go back to
:29:35. > :29:40.whatever advance there are, looking at whether the money raised through
:29:40. > :29:44.energy companies to deliver energy efficiency, is that doing as well
:29:44. > :29:49.as it might? Could it be better delivered by another agency? They
:29:49. > :29:55.are fair questions. We need to get market. Can we make the market will
:29:55. > :29:59.competitive make sure when there is downward pressure on wholesale
:29:59. > :30:05.prices, that is reflected on our bills? That is the bigger picture
:30:05. > :30:18.As you complain about the energy prices, it was as a result of your
:30:18. > :30:21.actions. Ed Miliband introduced prices, it was as a result of your
:30:21. > :30:27.climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for
:30:27. > :30:31.decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much
:30:31. > :30:36.as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out
:30:36. > :30:39.there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills,
:30:39. > :30:40.there. It is important that we also recognise that if we are going
:30:40. > :30:48.to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British
:30:48. > :31:00.renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge
:31:00. > :31:04.wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in
:31:04. > :31:15.bills of 5%. Which are saying that fell in 2009, we got a reduction in
:31:15. > :31:21.going up, but we haven't seen the amount of investment suggested by
:31:21. > :31:33.Government to take out all carbon speech in Brighton that Labour
:31:33. > :31:36.Government to take out all carbon from energy generation by 2030.
:31:36. > :31:37.Government to take out all carbon is not that far away. By 2030, no
:31:38. > :31:43.more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive
:31:43. > :31:52.nuclear and much more expensive without bills going up even further?
:31:52. > :31:56.Hang on a second. The 2030 target to remove carbon from the electricity
:31:56. > :31:59.supply, we have said we should set a target now because, actually, it
:31:59. > :32:02.gives us more time to plan ahead and also allows investment to come in.
:32:02. > :32:07.There is plenty of people with cash in their pockets not want to invest
:32:07. > :32:09.what they are stalling because of the Government's hesitancy over
:32:09. > :32:14.this. I just want a clarification here. My understanding is that your
:32:14. > :32:20.commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation by
:32:20. > :32:23.2030? From the letters city supply. Only electricity. We will still
:32:23. > :32:27.2030? From the letters city supply. gas? We have always said we will
:32:27. > :32:37.need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be
:32:37. > :32:41.increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding
:32:41. > :32:48.twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables
:32:48. > :32:55.are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under
:32:55. > :32:56.are two or three times the market policies? On nuclear, we took a
:32:56. > :33:01.decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the
:33:01. > :33:06.sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the
:33:06. > :33:09.energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:09. > :33:14.discussions with EDF about what heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:14. > :33:16.important, because I don't know heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:16. > :33:20.it's going to be, it is important that stands up to scrutiny in terms
:33:20. > :33:26.of value for money. At the same time, I go back to market reforms.
:33:26. > :33:32.difference, the jargon for nuclear, We will not just have a target for
:33:32. > :33:33.difference, the jargon for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as
:33:33. > :33:36.well. That is even more important, that we can have a robust target
:33:37. > :33:43.that we have a transparent market so that we can have a robust target
:33:43. > :33:59.Cameron saying something needs to be price to be judged against. Michael
:33:59. > :34:00.Cameron saying something needs to be done. I'm surprised David Cameron
:34:00. > :34:08.doesn't acknowledge that. You are going to freeze prices for 20 months
:34:08. > :34:11.regulator to replace Ofgem. Will that regulator have the power to
:34:11. > :34:20.regulator to replace Ofgem. Will control prices? The new energy
:34:20. > :34:29.wholesale costs and prices, which it moment. As a result of that it will
:34:29. > :34:32.wholesale costs and prices, which it wholesale prices fall, it can force
:34:32. > :34:37.the energy companies, if they don't, to pass on reductions in bills to
:34:37. > :34:41.consumers. It will not have what we see in some parts of the European
:34:41. > :34:45.Union, 15 of them, that have a variety of price controls that set
:34:45. > :34:51.things at below inflation and what have you. France, Spain, Italy.
:34:51. > :34:55.things at below inflation and what will not do that. Why? Because we
:34:55. > :35:00.are looking at a temporary price freeze to reflect a reduction in
:35:00. > :35:01.are looking at a temporary price British public respite from ever
:35:01. > :35:06.reforms into the market. At the British public respite from ever
:35:06. > :35:10.of this, what we want is a more competitive market that can be
:35:10. > :35:14.trusted, that is more transparent. We do believe it is right that,
:35:14. > :35:20.actually, we need a regulator that has much more of a role in making
:35:20. > :35:29.effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I
:35:29. > :35:31.effectively. Are you accusing energy accusing them of overcharging and
:35:31. > :35:39.not passing on wholesale reduction costs to the customer in a fair
:35:39. > :35:44.not passing on wholesale reduction Of making Carter -- cartel profits?
:35:44. > :35:51.I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their
:35:51. > :35:53.I do believe that the level of the reductions they could have
:35:53. > :35:59.provided to consumers. Let's look at the evidence for that. Here are
:35:59. > :36:03.provided to consumers. Let's look at British owned companies, SSE and
:36:03. > :36:23.provided to consumers. Let's look at they made combined earnings of
:36:23. > :36:28.provided to consumers. Let's look at work done by other organisations,
:36:28. > :36:33.Witch and others, it shows that work done by other organisations,
:36:33. > :36:38.Centrica's case they have something like 8% return in profit margins on
:36:38. > :36:41.the retail side. That goes up to 24% on the generation side. They have
:36:41. > :36:46.passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to
:36:46. > :36:48.shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested
:36:48. > :36:58.£3 billion. I am reporting what don't show that. They have invested
:36:58. > :37:03.been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has They may well be, but we don't have
:37:03. > :37:06.of not doing the job they should be of not doing the job they should be
:37:06. > :37:16.doing, and they have held back from across the big six, something like
:37:16. > :37:22.50% of profits has gone over to Centrica's case it is 74%. On the
:37:22. > :37:28.Centrica example, even though they have had the highest profit margins,
:37:28. > :37:32.they have invested the least. It is fair to question. We are running out
:37:32. > :37:36.of time. None of us really know fair to question. We are running out
:37:36. > :37:43.the true price of energy is that is crucial. That is because he merged
:37:43. > :37:47.the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting
:37:47. > :37:51.prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in
:37:51. > :37:56.prices up, even after your price way that they do, do you rule out
:37:56. > :38:03.competitive market and that is why watching Sunday Politics. Coming up
:38:03. > :38:07.in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our
:38:07. > :38:39.Shadow Attorney General, welcome. and Isa with Mary McLeod and the
:38:39. > :38:47.Shadow Attorney General, welcome. strikes on the Underground should be
:38:47. > :38:59.conference season reaches its final the ring to have a tilt at the
:39:00. > :39:05.conference season reaches its final London mayoral team. Eddie is and
:39:05. > :39:09.Tessa Jowell and Siddique Khan dropped heavy hints they will run
:39:10. > :39:15.for City Hall in 2013. Who do you fancy? Tessa Jowell or Siddique
:39:15. > :39:22.Khan? I think it will be much longer than that, the list. Who else? EU I
:39:22. > :39:26.couldn't possibly say. You could. speculative at the London reception.
:39:26. > :39:30.We had a list of ten. All kinds speculative at the London reception.
:39:30. > :39:32.people. What would be interesting is if we are going to decide on having
:39:32. > :39:42.candidates. What would you like if we are going to decide on having
:39:42. > :39:49.see? They closed primary, Labour supporters to be involved in the
:39:49. > :39:54.decision. What about an all-female short list? Tessa Jowell, that is
:39:54. > :40:05.the first time a woman has suggested putting herself forward. And on
:40:05. > :40:08.the first time a woman has suggested Oona King had a go. A lot of women,
:40:08. > :40:13.I think, might be planning on going. think it will be interesting. The
:40:13. > :40:16.problem with an open primary is think it will be interesting. The
:40:16. > :40:19.cost. But I think the principle think it will be interesting. The
:40:20. > :40:30.good one. You will have no money by Would you like to see Boris stand
:40:30. > :40:35.again? I think he's been a great Mayor. A lot of people have come
:40:35. > :40:40.standing. This is the greatest city in the world. It's an amazing job to
:40:40. > :40:47.do. I really think that it is the independents. It's difficult for
:40:47. > :40:53.them to stand, but some did well last year. I think it would be great
:40:53. > :40:55.to have a long list of candidates. Who would you like to see come
:40:55. > :41:04.mind would make a good Mayor? I Who would you like to see come
:41:04. > :41:24.2020 vision and wants to deliver third. Is the weird thing that is
:41:24. > :41:27.more likely to go for Mayor again if he thinks the Conservatives might
:41:27. > :41:30.lose the next election, if he thinks they might win he's more likely
:41:30. > :41:34.lose the next election, if he thinks go for... But he has to make a
:41:34. > :41:37.decision in 2015. Maybe you have had these conversations with Boris,
:41:37. > :41:38.decision in 2015. Maybe you have had haven't. I talked to him about
:41:38. > :41:44.Heathrow expansion and stopping haven't. I talked to him about
:41:44. > :41:47.third runway. But I would rather have him standing again. Labour
:41:47. > :41:50.established the cost of living as established the cost of living as
:41:50. > :41:53.one of the major battle lines in the next general election. In London,
:41:53. > :41:58.rising house prices, soaring rent and the squeeze on wages has meant
:41:58. > :42:01.that under this Government Londoners are spending a large amount of
:42:01. > :42:05.housing. Earlier in the week I caught up with the Prime Minister
:42:05. > :42:10.and began by asking him what he thought the proportion of income the
:42:10. > :42:18.accommodation was in the capital. I it is a huge amount. Rent is very
:42:18. > :42:21.housing and we have to deal with that. At the same time, we have
:42:21. > :42:23.housing and we have to deal with deal with the fact there are lots of
:42:23. > :42:25.people renting in London who would like to buy in London and over their
:42:25. > :42:29.own home. That is what the Help like to buy in London and over their
:42:29. > :42:32.Buy policy is about. Helping young people who can afford the mortgage
:42:32. > :42:38.payments but can't get the mortgage but because the banking system is
:42:38. > :42:43.stuck. The figure is 59%, you are right, it is extremely high. I don't
:42:43. > :42:49.have a target in mind. It if we build more homes, which we should do
:42:49. > :42:52.planning system, if we help young people get on the housing ladder and
:42:52. > :42:55.own a home of their own, if we continue to make it easy for people
:42:55. > :43:02.to rent houses, we should see a better situation. Let me add to
:43:02. > :43:07.housing benefit. One of the things that has driven rent up in the past
:43:07. > :43:13.has been housing benefit paying people's rent. London councils say
:43:13. > :43:15.London needs 100,000 new homes each year until 2021 to get on top of the
:43:15. > :43:21.shortages you have just described. year until 2021 to get on top of the
:43:21. > :43:25.have been built each year. How are you going to increase that sixfold?
:43:25. > :43:30.have been built each year. How are Reforming the planning system is
:43:30. > :43:35.planning system, the parties have encourage house-builders to build.
:43:35. > :43:49.planning system, the parties have Unlocking the mortgage market, which
:43:49. > :43:49.planning system, the parties have immigration. You have seen net
:43:49. > :43:53.migration under this Government immigration. You have seen net
:43:53. > :43:57.by a third. We need to take further steps to make sure we don't put
:43:57. > :44:01.unnecessary pressure on the housing system. Taking those measures into
:44:01. > :44:04.account, it is still not going to be enough to build the sort of number
:44:04. > :44:10.that is required to deal with what is now a housing crisis. Do you
:44:10. > :44:16.that is required to deal with what in build and, -- Ed Miliband has
:44:16. > :44:18.outflanked you on this? He won't control immigration, so you have
:44:18. > :44:23.pressure building and building. control immigration, so you have
:44:23. > :44:26.idea of confiscating land from developers will discourage people
:44:27. > :44:31.from boarding houses. He has opposed reforms to the planning system and
:44:31. > :44:34.Miliband had helped to put in place. The only way you will get more
:44:34. > :44:41.houses is reforming the planning system, making sure builders can
:44:41. > :44:43.houses is reforming the planning things were doing. One of the things
:44:43. > :44:49.he says is that you just don't get top of your party, you live for
:44:49. > :44:54.he says is that you just don't get at Number 10, you have a house in
:44:54. > :44:59.don't understand what it is like. Would you accept that? I don't,
:44:59. > :45:03.don't understand what it is like. a minute. Of course, it is a huge
:45:03. > :45:06.I hold surgeries in my constituency where people see me every week and
:45:06. > :45:09.talk about the pressures in terms of rent, being able to buy a home.
:45:09. > :45:12.talk about the pressures in terms of the end, you should judge people not
:45:12. > :45:18.background they have, judge them by Frankly, this Government is building
:45:18. > :45:22.more homes, getting the housing market moving, helping people get on
:45:22. > :45:25.the housing ladder, dealing with problems of immigration, reforming
:45:25. > :45:30.welfare so it pays to work. There things government is doing. You
:45:30. > :45:30.welfare so it pays to work. There see the economy turning the corner.
:45:30. > :45:36.million net new private-sector jobs, see the economy turning the corner.
:45:36. > :45:43.million net new private-sector jobs, many more small businesses set up,
:45:43. > :46:10.election. 360,000 more young people need to stick to the programme.
:46:10. > :46:20.permission is not owned by builders available land. There are lots of
:46:20. > :46:24.things we need to do. Ed Miliband says he wants to build hundreds
:46:24. > :46:27.things we need to do. Ed Miliband thousands of homes and we know he
:46:27. > :46:29.needs it. He wants to build all those homes during the time of
:46:29. > :46:34.Labour being in office. We want those homes during the time of
:46:34. > :46:39.look at what needs to be changed in order to make sure those homes are
:46:39. > :46:43.built. We're going to do it. Every government has said that. Labour
:46:43. > :46:57.fell to build the houses it said it would build pop 13 years was that
:46:57. > :47:04.for 13 years. First of all, the number of homes be built was not
:47:04. > :47:11.enough. Many of us when lobbying. housing, housing. Many of us were
:47:11. > :47:16.going on about this. In London we are desperate for more homes. It is
:47:16. > :47:21.right he has come out and said he wants to. We did up all the social
:47:21. > :47:25.housing in the entire country, which was a big achievement. We
:47:25. > :47:27.housing in the entire country, going to do something about it.
:47:27. > :47:30.housing in the entire country, have some radical policies and
:47:30. > :47:35.we're going to do it. It is not about changing the planning policy.
:47:35. > :47:43.It is about investing money. We need to have social housing for
:47:43. > :47:49.rent. That is the only sort of affordable housing we can have. The
:47:49. > :47:57.real key is letting Ed Miliband making developers build on land
:47:57. > :48:04.building houses. They could also we're not going to do it at will. A
:48:04. > :48:07.plot of land near the Angel which has been empty for 20 years, there
:48:07. > :48:37.London, it is really difficult. has been empty for 20 years, there
:48:37. > :48:42.am in West London. To rent or buy it is extremely difficult and we
:48:42. > :48:50.need more homes. We need more. Absolutely! Do you think 16,000
:48:50. > :48:56.homes a year in shame for? I think constituency in West London that I
:48:56. > :49:04.have lots of development going on. I have some developers that have
:49:04. > :49:11.not got planning permissions sorted. intervention. I tried to make sure
:49:11. > :49:17.we can get things through and work with Hounslow council to make that
:49:17. > :49:23.happen. We do need those homes. What is wrong with use it or lose
:49:23. > :49:26.it? We also need homes that are affordable. There are five-bedroom
:49:26. > :49:31.houses with a couple of garages which are not homes for nurses,
:49:31. > :49:31.houses with a couple of garages homes for working people. They are
:49:31. > :49:35.not affordable. I was looking at homes for working people. They are
:49:35. > :49:40.how much it was to rent a three bedroom flat in Islington. When
:49:40. > :49:45.how much it was to rent a three looked this week, it was four under
:49:45. > :49:50.These were the cheapest ones we could find the stock -- £400. One
:49:50. > :49:55.suggested we had the land value could find the stock -- £400. One
:49:55. > :49:59.in order to stop people sitting could find the stock -- £400. One
:49:59. > :50:03.land, having vacant properties or taking investment properties. Is
:50:03. > :50:13.that not a good idea? We should Including use it or lose it? We
:50:13. > :50:33.London his face was so big in terms of the city. We do have to say,
:50:33. > :50:43.London his face was so big in terms to help me get a school. London
:50:43. > :50:45.London his face was so big in terms to make sure our leaders understand.
:50:45. > :50:47.One of the big tests for any Prime Minister at conference season is
:50:47. > :51:05.for the coming year. In London, Minister at conference season is
:51:05. > :51:08.for the coming year. In London, York subway have been illegal since
:51:08. > :51:12.the 60s was that they happen but rarely. This action in 2005 was
:51:12. > :51:17.only one of two cases in almost rarely. This action in 2005 was
:51:17. > :51:23.years. The boss of the striking union was sent to jail and his
:51:23. > :51:28.organisation find £2 million. The TW has decided their demands are
:51:28. > :51:33.more important than the law. More important than the City and the
:51:33. > :51:37.people they serve. The idea of a strike ban on the tube might be
:51:37. > :51:41.gaining momentum. Earlier this year, Conservatives called for them to be
:51:41. > :51:45.made illegal. They say, if unions have serious dispute with transport
:51:45. > :51:50.buses, it should go to a third party to have it settled. There
:51:50. > :51:55.should be binding arbitration. If a vote is taken, then the binding
:51:55. > :52:02.arbitration should be done by a judge or a panel and that their
:52:02. > :52:06.decision as a church, should be final. That is the point. -- 8
:52:06. > :52:12.judge. This is gaining approval final. That is the point. -- 8
:52:12. > :52:21.Parliament. I think the assembly Conservatives are leading the way
:52:21. > :52:24.suggestion. I hope the Government I them now or after the election will
:52:24. > :52:32.look at is to see if we can make this possible. -- either now for
:52:32. > :52:45.I am not saying all strikes will be banned. I think essential public
:52:45. > :52:49.services such as the fire brigade and similar public services, bear
:52:49. > :52:56.and 80s which we should not be should not be strikes these days.
:52:56. > :52:56.and 80s which we should not be tolerating in an economy which
:52:56. > :53:01.needs people to get out to work a slippery slope no one wants to go
:53:01. > :53:23.rescue things. The trade unions a slippery slope no one wants to go
:53:23. > :53:33.taken industrial action to ensure station the public had mixed views.
:53:33. > :53:39.Especially when you are looking after children, children rely on
:53:39. > :53:44.the service. They think maybe it could be an option. I do not think
:53:44. > :53:51.they should be made illegal. I have a right to protest against pay
:53:51. > :54:03.rises, just like any other person. governing it and there should be a
:54:03. > :54:06.police are not allowed to strike. Should the Conservatives win the
:54:06. > :54:12.next election, could well be added to that list? When I spied the
:54:12. > :54:16.Prime Minister, I asked him whether he would rule out banning strikes
:54:16. > :54:20.on the Tube. I would not rule them out. It would be better if we could
:54:20. > :54:26.get to a situation where there was disputes came up, rather than the
:54:26. > :54:28.strikes me as seen in recent years. Seeing fewer strikes in our public
:54:28. > :54:36.support. What about other parts Seeing fewer strikes in our public
:54:36. > :54:39.the public sector? But take a look at firefighters. Should they be
:54:39. > :54:45.banned from going on strike like the police? We have an opportunity
:54:45. > :54:49.to look at all these things before the next election. What a majority
:54:49. > :54:56.Conservative government would do. The Duke has been particularly
:54:56. > :55:01.difficult in recent years. -- the tube. Mary kite you are one of the
:55:01. > :55:10.MPs that did not respond to the survey. We do support a ban on the
:55:10. > :55:13.tube strikes? -- would you support? Transport for London is essential
:55:13. > :55:22.to have a city works and how the how the City works. We have about
:55:22. > :55:28.11 million people going around London during the day, working in
:55:28. > :55:41.recent potential strike colour less London, and they need to get to
:55:41. > :55:42.recent potential strike colour less than 50% of people actually voted
:55:42. > :55:57.recent potential strike colour less on it. For those who said they
:55:57. > :55:59.recent potential strike colour less ban? Would you like to see it in
:55:59. > :56:03.the manifesto? It is something we should think about putting in there
:56:03. > :56:11.for us to have you may not support a ban on strikes. -- in there. I
:56:11. > :56:15.think it's it's built in the mouths of Tory politicians in London to so
:56:15. > :56:25.they should be banning strikes on the tube. -- it sits ill. That is
:56:25. > :56:32.Boris's then you should have over 50% and that is a majority. --
:56:32. > :56:33.Boris is saying. He promised he would work towards a no-strike
:56:33. > :56:41.agreement with the Underground. would work towards a no-strike
:56:41. > :56:48.he met the unions? He has not even met them. For them to turn around
:56:48. > :56:54.they only have strikes when there is a failure in relationships. If
:56:54. > :57:00.we had a man who will not even meet the Underground unions... We had
:57:00. > :57:06.more strikes under Boris than Ken. That is due to an attitude problem.
:57:06. > :57:11.Her what about the disruption? That is terrible. I'm not pretending
:57:11. > :57:15.they are not a failure. When I happen it is terrible. People who
:57:15. > :57:24.work on the tubes do not go on pay. Nobody wants to go on strike.
:57:24. > :57:28.negotiate these things and talk through the problems. The Prime
:57:28. > :57:33.Minister said it was something they would consider to look across the
:57:33. > :57:41.public sector for firefighters. What you say to that? I think, for
:57:41. > :57:49.public services that are absolutely Striking is a way of people voicing
:57:49. > :58:03.arbitration way you can. We need Striking is a way of people voicing
:58:03. > :58:07.over 50% of people voting for a Striking is a way of people voicing
:58:07. > :58:09.where less than 50% come out and We need to engage with the public
:58:09. > :58:27.vote, are those electors not valid? We need to engage with the public
:58:27. > :58:38.let's get the public out. Now time for the rest of the political news
:58:38. > :58:44.in 60 seconds. -- you are coming out with a... The cancer is said to
:58:44. > :58:50.be unable to sell the old buildings and is considering moving back.
:58:50. > :58:53.be unable to sell the old buildings the council. Some traffic wardens
:58:53. > :58:56.in Camden and Ealing claim that forecasts in council contracts mean
:58:56. > :59:05.they are put under pressure to issue more parking tickets. Ealing,
:59:05. > :59:08.targets on the number of tickets and denied any wrongdoing. Two men
:59:08. > :59:19.spitting in the streets. It was and denied any wrongdoing. Two men
:59:19. > :59:26.successfully for spitting. Enfield council has said it will seek a
:59:26. > :59:29.decision to close maternity and Accident and Emergency units at
:59:29. > :59:33.Chase Farm Hospital. The labour followed by Accident and Emergency
:59:33. > :59:49.Nobody likes spitting in the street, but would you fine people for doing
:59:49. > :59:53.it? I would, actually. I think it is a disgusting habit. My local council
:59:53. > :59:59.is looking at banning it, or fining for it. I am supportive of it. You
:59:59. > :00:13.don't think it is Draconian? I think unhygienic, and absolutely they
:00:13. > :00:16.should be fined. Don't you think it mightily to people being unfairly
:00:16. > :00:21.prosecuted? You are looking forward to the idea that Hounslow Council
:00:21. > :00:27.introduces it? I just think... I agree. It is right to say that this
:00:27. > :00:29.is not acceptable and fining them is the right thing to do. What chilly
:00:29. > :00:39.other habits that people have? the right thing to do. What chilly
:00:39. > :00:49.other habits that people have? different, it doesn't affect anyone
:00:49. > :00:51.other habits that people have? unpleasant for others. It shouldn't
:00:51. > :00:58.just be about you. Do you think think they probably will, they will
:00:58. > :01:02.take the lead and go for it. Thank you both for being my guests is
:01:02. > :01:06.today. That is all we've got time for. My thanks again to Mary McLeod
:01:06. > :01:25.So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will
:01:25. > :01:37.So, we'll David Cameron's marriage conference initiatives? And what is
:01:37. > :01:42.UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to with the Tories in Manchester?
:01:42. > :01:56.On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,
:01:56. > :02:03.let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not
:02:03. > :02:06.looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice
:02:06. > :02:10.at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We
:02:10. > :02:12.at the general election. The British on the right track, we are seeing
:02:12. > :02:15.more jobs, new businesses, we are beginning to get things moving
:02:15. > :02:20.again. Do you want to stick with us, hard-working people, or do you want
:02:20. > :02:26.to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want
:02:26. > :02:32.and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime
:02:32. > :02:40.there any appetite on the UKIP side discussions around the country,
:02:40. > :02:40.there any appetite on the UKIP side would say no. It's being discussed,
:02:40. > :02:59.is the media that is pushing this. would say no. It's being discussed,
:02:59. > :03:04.is the media that is pushing this. trying to reclaim what I would call
:03:04. > :03:16.position. I'm not sure what the Conservatives are trying to react to
:03:16. > :03:17.the right, which the media wants to interpret as them possibly being
:03:17. > :03:21.able to do some sort of pact with interpret as them possibly being
:03:21. > :03:27.able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to
:03:27. > :03:33.whatsoever. It is not on the radar. I have read comments, including
:03:33. > :03:40.Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's
:03:40. > :03:44.call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt
:03:44. > :03:46.that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is
:03:46. > :03:55.not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an
:03:55. > :03:58.have responded to that by saying, the moment, there are no ongoing
:03:59. > :04:05.discussions. There is certainly constituency level or coming out of
:04:05. > :04:15.believe any constituencies are Eurosceptics? I am not privy to
:04:15. > :04:17.believe any constituencies are all 360 constituencies might be
:04:17. > :04:23.discussing. All I can do is give you the example of the few I have seen
:04:23. > :04:25.and know it is not on the agenda. Without a pact, it is perfectly
:04:25. > :04:30.possible that you could fail to Without a pact, it is perfectly
:04:30. > :04:35.a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing
:04:35. > :04:36.Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are
:04:36. > :04:54.very clear marginals, just like a number of seats out there that are
:04:54. > :04:59.Izzard was. I believe there could be an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If
:04:59. > :05:02.you take enough votes away from an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If
:05:02. > :05:08.Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment
:05:08. > :05:11.I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held
:05:11. > :05:17.seat, even after that result, does example, a Liberal Democrat held
:05:17. > :05:18.seat, even after that result, does to be focusing on Tory seats. We are
:05:18. > :05:21.out there because people resonate to be focusing on Tory seats. We are
:05:21. > :05:21.out there because people resonate with our message. For the Liberal
:05:21. > :05:31.support any discussion on leaving with our message. For the Liberal
:05:31. > :05:34.turn-off for voters. David Cameron with our message. For the Liberal
:05:34. > :05:39.says there is not going to be a with our message. For the Liberal
:05:39. > :05:41.or at a constituency level. But with our message. For the Liberal
:05:41. > :05:46.seems clear to me that there will not be a national one. So, does
:05:46. > :05:49.David Cameron have a UKIP strategy? The only encouraging thing for
:05:49. > :05:52.UKIP's successful David Cameron that the moment that he would only
:05:52. > :05:55.that their support is so enormous that the moment that he would only
:05:55. > :05:59.really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a
:05:59. > :06:03.decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The
:06:03. > :06:08.question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A
:06:08. > :06:09.question becomes, how much of that last week suggested that 47% of
:06:10. > :06:13.current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing
:06:13. > :06:19.Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against
:06:19. > :06:25.recovery. So, plausibly, there is secondary question is, what does
:06:25. > :06:29.David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will
:06:30. > :06:33.referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration
:06:33. > :06:38.policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until
:06:38. > :06:44.the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice
:06:44. > :06:53.Cameron, and that is what shifts a Cameron. We heard from William Hague
:06:53. > :06:56.earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you
:06:56. > :07:02.could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple
:07:02. > :07:08.appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European
:07:08. > :07:13.elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where
:07:13. > :07:14.you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited
:07:14. > :07:21.about that, I think that bounce be hard for people to get excited
:07:21. > :07:26.fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a good ground game, that is difficult
:07:26. > :07:31.for UKIP, that don't have that machinery sorted. How are they
:07:31. > :07:59.for UKIP, that don't have that to fund that operation? But the
:07:59. > :08:03.for UKIP, that don't have that fun, next year do you want me or Ed
:08:04. > :08:06.for UKIP, that don't have that danger with David Cameron is saying,
:08:06. > :08:12.of course, there is not going to be a pact, the danger is you will get a
:08:12. > :08:16.repeat of the 1977 election. John Major said, famously, do not bind my
:08:16. > :08:22.hands. A series of Conservative personally rule out membership of
:08:22. > :08:26.the euro, when the Conservative membership was wait and see. That
:08:26. > :08:32.looked like a Prime Minister not in charge of his party. The danger
:08:32. > :08:34.looked like a Prime Minister not in Let's assume you do really well
:08:34. > :08:37.looked like a Prime Minister not in the European actions and there is a
:08:37. > :08:42.widespread expectation that you will, even in Downing Street. They
:08:42. > :08:45.might be managing expectations. will, even in Downing Street. They
:08:45. > :08:48.stops you fading away as the general election approaches? A number of
:08:48. > :08:51.reasons. As has been mentioned, election approaches? A number of
:08:51. > :08:58.whole issue of the referendum pledge has been proved to be an absolute
:08:58. > :09:02.nonsense. It is so contingent on if I am re-elected, if it's not a
:09:02. > :09:09.coalition government, is, if, if. That was fooled nobody. The issue of
:09:09. > :09:13.where voters are coming from, it is because they have lost faith in
:09:13. > :09:15.where voters are coming from, it is David Cameron says. There is nothing
:09:15. > :09:22.he is going to say that is convince think that is my view and the view
:09:22. > :09:28.of a lot of UKIP. I am told that they have expunged Nigel Farage
:09:28. > :09:32.of a lot of UKIP. I am told that the fringes? It is a great scoop, on
:09:32. > :09:37.the front page. They are outside the ring of steel. Even so, they won't
:09:37. > :09:39.programme, so they must be worried about something. His people have
:09:39. > :09:43.paid money for adverts in the Tory about something. His people have
:09:43. > :09:44.paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken
:09:44. > :09:48.out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken
:09:48. > :09:53.leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as
:09:53. > :09:53.leadership is worried about, Boris interview that he is now beginning
:09:53. > :10:01.his long march back to Parliament? interview that he is now beginning
:10:01. > :10:01.his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad
:10:01. > :10:05.during the Syria debate that he He does express feeling slightly sad
:10:05. > :10:10.not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do
:10:10. > :10:14.not there, on the political front see why it is in his interest is to
:10:14. > :10:40.The interesting thing is him saying he will move before, I think he
:10:40. > :10:43.The interesting thing is him saying that people have seven years before
:10:43. > :10:47.the electorate get bored of them. He might be cresting that. He doesn't
:10:47. > :10:51.want to be Prime Minister, he is much more ambitious than that. He
:10:51. > :10:59.wants to be an emperor. He was asked, which Roman emperor would you
:10:59. > :11:03.like to be compared to? You said, important. I don't think you are
:11:03. > :11:10.thinking big enough. See what I important. I don't think you are
:11:10. > :11:15.to put up with, every Sunday? By virtue of being born in the US,
:11:15. > :11:16.to put up with, every Sunday? By could be president. Unlike Arnold
:11:16. > :11:26.Schwarzenegger. How about a deal with Boris? He has made no secret,
:11:26. > :11:29.after Eastleigh, that he would be open to a discussion. Let's call it
:11:29. > :11:35.no more than a discussion. He has been adamant, however, he does not
:11:35. > :11:37.see any reason, any justification or any opportunity where he would be
:11:37. > :11:43.able to have that discourse with any opportunity where he would be
:11:43. > :11:45.David Cameron. Maybe it comes down to that on both sides. I've no idea.
:11:45. > :11:50.We know that the Tories will be to that on both sides. I've no idea.
:11:50. > :11:54.more Eurosceptic after the next election? I can't imagine David
:11:54. > :12:00.Cameron's successor will be somebody that supports EU membership in
:12:00. > :12:06.ideological direction of the party. The leadership contest will be about
:12:06. > :12:12.this is a great deal for Britain membership, are you going to say
:12:12. > :12:15.this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has
:12:15. > :12:18.turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,
:12:18. > :12:25.turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader
:12:25. > :12:34.a good conference for David Cameron eye-catching announcement related to
:12:34. > :12:38.a good conference for David Cameron living standards. May be a clearer
:12:38. > :12:41.a good conference for David Cameron certainly help, that fightback has
:12:41. > :12:46.should be looking out for are not been rubbish so far. The thing we
:12:46. > :12:47.should be looking out for are not ones about the end of October, when
:12:47. > :12:57.then we will see what happens. In a everything gets to settle down and
:12:57. > :13:03.then we will see what happens. In a he doing, other than mischief? I
:13:03. > :13:06.could almost say revenge. Revenge on Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord
:13:07. > :13:14.Ashcroft was there at the Labour conference. You call it mischief,
:13:14. > :13:16.but there is every reason why he should be there. We all call it
:13:16. > :13:20.mischief. Thanks for being with should be there. We all call it
:13:20. > :13:26.Join me on Daily Politics for live coverage of the Conservative Party
:13:26. > :13:30.conference tomorrow morning from 11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring
:13:30. > :13:31.conference tomorrow morning from George Osborne's speech live and
:13:31. > :13:35.uninterrupted. I'll be back next weekend when guests will include
:13:35. > :13:38.former Conservative Chancellor Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it
:13:38. > :13:41.former Conservative Chancellor Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.