:00:41. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:47. > :00:50.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:51. > :00:55.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:56. > :01:01.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:02. > :01:06.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:07. > :01:11.coppers will be answering questions this week over the Andrew bachelor
:01:12. > :01:17.for. A former detective and a critic of the police go head to head. -
:01:18. > :01:20.the Andrew Mitchell affair. In London, does the London assembly
:01:21. > :01:34.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:35. > :01:38.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:39. > :01:43.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:44. > :01:51.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:52. > :01:57.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:58. > :02:02.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:03. > :02:06.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:07. > :02:11.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:12. > :02:16.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:17. > :02:19.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:20. > :02:30.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First, they report on the independence
:02:31. > :02:34.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:35. > :02:38.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:39. > :02:43.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:44. > :02:48.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:49. > :02:51.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:52. > :02:58.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:59. > :03:01.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:02. > :03:05.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:06. > :03:10.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:11. > :03:16.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:17. > :03:19.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:20. > :03:23.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 25%
:03:24. > :03:29.questioned planned to vote no, 5% yes. But interestingly, the
:03:30. > :03:34.undecideds were at 31%, suggesting that Alex Salmond's task might be
:03:35. > :03:38.tough but not impossible. There are a number of reasons which make a
:03:39. > :03:43.vanilla campaign a good idea. It does not put off cautious voters, it
:03:44. > :03:47.allows for people to imagine their own version of what independence
:03:48. > :03:51.will be like, and crucially, it allows for the yes campaign to take
:03:52. > :03:55.advantage of any mistakes by the no campaign. In other words, the yes
:03:56. > :04:00.campaign are not out there with big ideas, they are just waiting for the
:04:01. > :04:04.no campaign to trip up. What we do know is that whatever happens next
:04:05. > :04:08.September, Scotland will be getting more power. From 2016, a separate
:04:09. > :04:12.income tax regime will come into force, giving the Scottish
:04:13. > :04:15.Parliament control over billions of pounds of revenue. What we do not
:04:16. > :04:18.know yet is how the alternative would pan out. There are issues
:04:19. > :04:24.which would be raised by independence, issues about how the
:04:25. > :04:26.national debt is allocated, what the currency will look like, how an
:04:27. > :04:31.independent Scotland would balance the books, because it would have a
:04:32. > :04:35.bigger job to do, even down the Whitehall government has to do.
:04:36. > :04:39.Those are really big issues, which a Scottish government would have to
:04:40. > :04:43.face, on top of whatever negotiation it had to have with the UK
:04:44. > :04:45.Government. The Scottish government's White Paper on
:04:46. > :04:53.independence, two to be published within weeks, should fill in some of
:04:54. > :04:56.the banks. But how Scotland votes in September may yet be determined by
:04:57. > :05:02.what it feels rather than what it knows. And joining me from Perth is
:05:03. > :05:09.Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we
:05:10. > :05:13.meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson
:05:14. > :05:17.said, if this referendum fails, it will fail on the basis that people
:05:18. > :05:22.put their British identity ahead of their Scottish identity, so we have
:05:23. > :05:28.got to attack on the British identity - what does he mean? Gordon
:05:29. > :05:33.Wilson is a very respected, much loved former leader of the SNP. My
:05:34. > :05:36.view is that I do not think the independence referendum is really
:05:37. > :05:41.about identity. I am secure and proud of my Scottish identity, but
:05:42. > :05:49.this is a decision about where power best lies. Do decision-making powers
:05:50. > :05:52.best lie here in Scotland, with a government which is directly
:05:53. > :05:56.accountable to the people of Scotland, or does it best lie in
:05:57. > :06:00.Westminster, with governments which, very often, people in Scotland do
:06:01. > :06:08.not vote for? That is the issue at the heart of the campaign. Let me
:06:09. > :06:14.just clarify, you do not agree with him, that you need to go on the
:06:15. > :06:17.attack with regard to the British identity of Scottish people? No I
:06:18. > :06:21.identity of Scottish people? No, I do not think we are required to
:06:22. > :06:27.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:28. > :06:30.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:31. > :06:35.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:36. > :06:38.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:39. > :06:41.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:42. > :06:46.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:47. > :06:50.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:51. > :06:55.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:56. > :06:59.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:07:00. > :07:03.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:04. > :07:08.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:09. > :07:11.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:12. > :07:14.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:15. > :07:20.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:21. > :07:26.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:27. > :07:33.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:34. > :07:39.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:40. > :07:43.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:44. > :07:48.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:49. > :07:51.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:52. > :07:56.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:57. > :08:00.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:08:01. > :08:04.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:05. > :08:09.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:10. > :08:13.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:14. > :08:19.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:20. > :08:23.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:24. > :08:27.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:28. > :08:32.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:33. > :08:37.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:38. > :08:42.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:43. > :08:51.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:52. > :08:57.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:58. > :08:59.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:00. > :09:01.government would do, if elected. out some of the things an SNP
:09:02. > :09:04.government would do, if elected A government would do, if elected. A
:09:05. > :09:06.decision on what the first government of an independent
:09:07. > :09:12.Scotland would be would not be taken in the referendum, that decision
:09:13. > :09:15.would be taken in the 2016 election. And all of the parties will put
:09:16. > :09:19.forward their offers to the electorate. We are setting out some
:09:20. > :09:23.of the things which we think it is important to be prioritised. These
:09:24. > :09:28.are things which have a lot of support in Scotland. We see the pain
:09:29. > :09:32.being felt by people because of the rising cost of energy bills, there
:09:33. > :09:36.is widespread opposition to some of the welfare cuts. So, we are setting
:09:37. > :09:40.out the options which are open to Scotland, but only open to Scotland
:09:41. > :09:48.if we have the powers of independence. Given that you seem to
:09:49. > :09:51.be promising aid permanent socialist near Varna, if Scotland is
:09:52. > :09:54.independent, if you are right of centre in Scotland, and I understand
:09:55. > :09:59.that is a minority pursuit where you are, but it would be a big mistake
:10:00. > :10:05.to vote for independence, in that case, wouldn't it? No, because the
:10:06. > :10:11.whole point of independence is that people get the country they want,
:10:12. > :10:14.and the government a vote for. So, right of centre people should not
:10:15. > :10:18.vote for independence? No, because people who are of that political
:10:19. > :10:20.persuasion in Scotland get the opportunity to vote for parties
:10:21. > :10:22.which represent that persuasion, opportunity to vote for parties
:10:23. > :10:26.which represent that persuasion and if they can persuade a majority to
:10:27. > :10:30.vote likewise, then they will get a government which reflects that. That
:10:31. > :10:35.is the essence of independence. Right now, we have a Westminster
:10:36. > :10:37.government which most people in Scotland rejected at the last
:10:38. > :10:42.general election. That is hardly democratic. It is right and proper
:10:43. > :10:46.that the SNP, as the current government, points out the
:10:47. > :11:01.opportunities that would be opening up. Can I just clarify one thing,
:11:02. > :11:09.when we spoke on The Daily Politics earlier last week, you made it clear
:11:10. > :11:12.to me that Alex Salmond, we know he wants to debate with David Cameron,
:11:13. > :11:22.but you made it clear to me that he would debate with Alistair Darling
:11:23. > :11:25.as well, and Mr Carmichael... He made it clear yesterday. Well, he
:11:26. > :11:29.said to the BBC this morning that he would only debate with these people
:11:30. > :11:34.after he had had a debate with Mr Cameron, so who is right? I was
:11:35. > :11:38.making the point last week, and Alex Salmond was making it yesterday and
:11:39. > :11:42.this morning - let's have that agreement by David Cameron to come
:11:43. > :11:49.and debate with Alex Salmond, and then Alex Salmond, just like me
:11:50. > :11:53.will debate with allcomers. So if he does not get the David Cameron
:11:54. > :11:58.debate, then he will not do the others, is that right? Let's focus
:11:59. > :12:06.on is wading David Cameron to do the right thing. So, in other words he
:12:07. > :12:11.will not debate, yes or no? Members of the SNP government... We know
:12:12. > :12:17.that, but what about Alex Salmond? He said yesterday, we will debate
:12:18. > :12:20.with all sorts of people, including the people you have spoken about,
:12:21. > :12:39.but David Cameron should not be let off the hook just putting aside the
:12:40. > :12:45.independence issue, energy prices are now even playing into the SNP,
:12:46. > :12:51.so every political party has to do something about energy prices. Yes,
:12:52. > :12:54.it is clearly it is interesting is the difference between the SNP and
:12:55. > :12:59.the Labour approach. Ed Miliband electrified the party conference
:13:00. > :13:02.season when he said he would freeze energy prices for 20 months,
:13:03. > :13:08.seemingly having an amazing control over the energy market, where we
:13:09. > :13:11.know that essentially what pushes prices up the wholesale prices on
:13:12. > :13:16.world market. What Nicola Sturgeon is talking about is actually saying,
:13:17. > :13:20.this amount is added to your bills for green levies, and we are going
:13:21. > :13:25.to take them off your bills and they will be paid out of general taxation
:13:26. > :13:29.in an independent Scotland. That is a credible government, making a
:13:30. > :13:33.credible case, very different to what Labour is saying, although
:13:34. > :13:37.playing to the same agenda. So, Labour has got a populist policy,
:13:38. > :13:42.the SNP has also got a populist policy, the one group of people that
:13:43. > :13:51.do not have a decent response to this is the coalition? Exactly. What
:13:52. > :13:56.the SNP also have is a magic money pot, so that speech yesterday, you
:13:57. > :14:01.are right, it was very left wing, social democratic, but there was
:14:02. > :14:04.none of the icing like Labour has been talking about, with fiscal
:14:05. > :14:08.responsibility. I think that is the difference between the two. We know
:14:09. > :14:12.what the Tories would really like to do, all of these green levies which
:14:13. > :14:17.were put on our bills in the good times, when they were going to be
:14:18. > :14:23.the greenest party ever, the Tories would like to say, let's just wipe
:14:24. > :14:29.out some of them, put the rest on to some general government spending,
:14:30. > :14:34.but they have a problem, which is in the Department of Energy and Climate
:14:35. > :14:41.Change. Not only that, they really are stuck now. But there is
:14:42. > :14:46.something in the free schools debate this morning, the parties are now
:14:47. > :14:51.determined to send a message to their potential voters at the next
:14:52. > :14:54.election, that they are trying to fight their coalition partners. Do
:14:55. > :14:58.not expected any change in coalition policy or free schools policy before
:14:59. > :15:02.the election, but we can expect to hear the parties try to pretend that
:15:03. > :15:07.they are taking on their coalition partners. Mr Clegg has said, we
:15:08. > :15:11.would put this free schools policy into our manifesto, so is it not
:15:12. > :15:15.possible that the Tories will say, if you give us an overall majority,
:15:16. > :15:19.we will cut your electricity bill because we will get rid of these
:15:20. > :15:23.green levies? I think that is entirely possible. The Tories know
:15:24. > :15:28.that they are stuck on this, they do not have a response to Ed Miliband.
:15:29. > :15:34.How much should ministers in Whitehall medal in local decisions
:15:35. > :15:37.across England? In opposition, David Cameron said he wanted a fundamental
:15:38. > :15:41.shift of power from Whitehall to local people. He said, when one size
:15:42. > :16:02.fits all solution is... Eric Pickles described it as "an
:16:03. > :16:07.historic shift of power". But the Communitites and Local Government
:16:08. > :16:11.Secretary can't stop meddling. In the past few months Mr Pickles has
:16:12. > :16:15.tried to ban councils from using CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine
:16:16. > :16:19.motorists... Told councils how to act quicker to shut down illegal
:16:20. > :16:24.travellers' sites... Criticised councils who want to raise council
:16:25. > :16:29.tax... Insisted councils release land to residents hoping to build
:16:30. > :16:34.their own property... And stated new homes should have a special built in
:16:35. > :16:37.bin storage section. It seems not a week goes by without a policy
:16:38. > :16:41.announcement from the hyper active Mr Pickles. So is the government
:16:42. > :16:46.still committed to localism, or is it all about centralism now?
:16:47. > :16:55.And Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now for the Sunday
:16:56. > :17:04.Interview. Welcome. Nice to be here. You said
:17:05. > :17:13.in July you were going to give town halls the power to wreak their local
:17:14. > :17:19.magic. So why issue diktats from Westminster? It is not about giving
:17:20. > :17:28.power to local councils, it is going beyond that to local people. If
:17:29. > :17:33.local councils refuse to open up their books, we have to go straight
:17:34. > :17:39.to local people. You have attacked councillors using so-called spy
:17:40. > :17:43.cameras to enforce parking rules. Why is that your business? Because
:17:44. > :17:50.there is an injustice taking place. You cannot use fines to raise money
:17:51. > :17:59.and that is plainly happening. If you get yourself a ticket from a
:18:00. > :18:02.CCTV, it could be days or weeks before that lands on your doorstep
:18:03. > :18:08.and you have virtually no possibility to be able to defend
:18:09. > :18:13.yourself. But just leave it to people to vote out the council then.
:18:14. > :18:19.We are trying to enforce the law and it clearly states that you cannot
:18:20. > :18:25.use parking fines in order to fund general rate. So why are you not
:18:26. > :18:30.taking them to court if they are breaking the law? There have been a
:18:31. > :18:39.number of court cases taken by local residents. I am there to stand by
:18:40. > :18:43.local residents. Your even trying to micromanage, allowing motorist s to
:18:44. > :18:49.micromanage, allowing motorist 's to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:50. > :18:53.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:54. > :19:01.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:02. > :19:04.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:05. > :19:10.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:11. > :19:16.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:17. > :19:21.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:22. > :19:27.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:28. > :19:35.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:36. > :19:40.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:41. > :19:46.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:47. > :19:49.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:50. > :20:01.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:02. > :20:07.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:08. > :20:17.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:18. > :20:27.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:28. > :20:32.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:33. > :20:40.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:41. > :20:44.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:45. > :20:51.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:52. > :20:59.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:21:00. > :21:12.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:13. > :21:17.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:18. > :21:25.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:26. > :21:29.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:30. > :21:34.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2012,
:21:35. > :21:38.David Cameron himself said in 2 12, he spoke about a vision where we
:21:39. > :21:45.give communities much more say and local control. People in villages
:21:46. > :21:53.fear big housing estates being plonked from above. You have just
:21:54. > :22:02.done exactly that. After a proper quasi judicial enquiry. What we have
:22:03. > :22:05.is planning framework which local people can decide where it goes. But
:22:06. > :22:11.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:12. > :22:16.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:17. > :22:25.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:26. > :22:28.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:29. > :22:32.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:33. > :22:41.belt land. I do not accept that. I belt land. I do not accept that I
:22:42. > :22:49.think around Nottingham there are particular problems with regards to
:22:50. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been referred back.
:23:01. > :23:01.the green belt. The matter has been want to see development on the green
:23:02. > :23:07.belt but on Brownfield site. We want to see underused land. But you have
:23:08. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green belt. Not
:23:15. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green nice, it is their to prevent
:23:15. > :23:19.conurbations bumping into one another. Your
:23:20. > :23:24.conurbations bumping into one is vocal about the need to deal
:23:25. > :23:24.what he calls the historic under provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:25. > :23:37.we need 250,000 new homes per year. provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:38. > :23:37.Houston statistics are getting there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:38. > :23:40.housing. You cannot there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:41. > :23:50.localism agenda as well as meeting housing demand. I do not accept
:23:51. > :23:58.that. We inherited a position where the lowest level of building since
:23:59. > :24:05.the 1920s was in place. But it has steadily improved. It does take a
:24:06. > :24:08.while. You cannot have a localism agenda where people call the shots
:24:09. > :24:14.on housing as well as meeting the housing demand. People have a duty
:24:15. > :24:19.to ensure that future generations have somewhere to live. You cannot
:24:20. > :24:26.pull up the drawbridge. There is nothing incompatible between that
:24:27. > :24:32.and localism. Because someone has to be the voice of those people who are
:24:33. > :24:39.going to live there and to make sure there is the proper amount. Plans
:24:40. > :24:44.now exist for more than 150,000 homes to be built on protected land,
:24:45. > :24:46.including the green belt. That will mean riding over local concerns.
:24:47. > :24:52.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:53. > :24:56.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:57. > :25:01.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:02. > :25:05.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:06. > :25:13.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:14. > :25:16.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:17. > :25:24.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:25. > :25:28.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:29. > :25:34.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:35. > :25:38.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:39. > :25:46.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:47. > :25:51.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:52. > :25:57.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:58. > :26:04.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:05. > :26:06.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:07. > :26:09.has to flow without restriction. has to flow without restriction
:26:10. > :26:12.That is what I said at the time. has to flow without restriction
:26:13. > :26:17.That is what I said at the time We That is what I said at the time. We
:26:18. > :26:23.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:24. > :26:26.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:27. > :26:38.we have. I could not be happier! we have. I could not be happier
:26:39. > :26:51.Then you are in the Desert and there you are in San Francisco. Then you
:26:52. > :27:01.are in the casino. That is my personal favourite. These students
:27:02. > :27:06.took a cardboard cutout of you and took it round the world with them.
:27:07. > :27:11.Did you ever think you would become a student icon? I always felt
:27:12. > :27:20.secretly that that might happen one day. But it came earlier in my
:27:21. > :27:27.career than I thought! Why would they do that? I think they thought I
:27:28. > :27:37.could do with a bit of an airing! I went to Norfolk earlier, but that
:27:38. > :27:39.looks better. Thank you. On Wednesday senior police folk,
:27:40. > :27:41.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:42. > :27:46.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:47. > :27:49.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:50. > :27:50.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:51. > :27:53.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:54. > :27:58.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:59. > :28:05.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:06. > :28:11.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:12. > :28:14.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:15. > :28:21.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:22. > :28:23.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament.
:28:24. > :28:26.2011. They'd been in Parliament After a few words with a police
:28:27. > :28:31.officer, Ian was wrestled to the ground. Alex came to have a look and
:28:32. > :28:36.the same thing happened to him. Both were arrested and charged. These
:28:37. > :28:40.pictures emerged on day one of their trial. A trial that was halted
:28:41. > :28:50.because the police version of events just didn't match the footage. A lot
:28:51. > :28:55.of people with incidence like this which we experienced, people think
:28:56. > :29:00.there is no smoke without fire. So when we said we did nothing wrong,
:29:01. > :29:06.people would think police just would not do that. There is always that
:29:07. > :29:09.underlying view that some people have. I think that has been
:29:10. > :29:14.challenged and people who know us believe that. This year the Met
:29:15. > :29:21.apologised and paid compensation. And it's led to an unlikely sort of
:29:22. > :29:25.friendship. When the truth came out about the Andrew Mitchell story I
:29:26. > :29:30.actually sent him an e-mail to congratulate him about the truth
:29:31. > :29:33.coming out. He did send a reply acknowledging that. So where are we
:29:34. > :29:38.with THAT saga? Remember last September? Andrew Mitchell had a row
:29:39. > :29:41.with police at the gates of Downing Street about his bike. He lost his
:29:42. > :29:47.job as chief whip after accusations he called the officers plebs. That,
:29:48. > :29:50.he's always denied. This week the police watchdog the IPCC suggested
:29:51. > :29:57.that three officers may have lied about a meeting with him at the
:29:58. > :29:59.height of the scandal. Add that to the charge sheet of cases that
:30:00. > :30:05.haven't exactly flattered the police. Like the revelation of a
:30:06. > :30:08.cover up over Hillsborough. The prosecution of an officer from the
:30:09. > :30:13.Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson during protests in 2009. Along with
:30:14. > :30:19.news that undercover officers were told to smear the family of Stephen
:30:20. > :30:22.Lawrence. During Thursday's protest by teachers in Westminster the
:30:23. > :30:27.police operation was really, really relaxed. And recent scandals have
:30:28. > :30:31.done nothing to affect society's view of the boys and girls in blue -
:30:32. > :30:39.or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of the public say they trust the
:30:40. > :30:40.police. And that's not budged since pollsters started measuring it 30
:30:41. > :30:49.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:50. > :30:55.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:56. > :31:00.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:01. > :31:05.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:06. > :31:11.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:12. > :31:16.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:17. > :31:19.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:20. > :31:25.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:26. > :31:32.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:33. > :31:38.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:39. > :31:43.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:44. > :31:49.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:50. > :31:55.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:56. > :31:59.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:32:00. > :32:04.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:05. > :32:07.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:08. > :32:16.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:17. > :32:20.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:21. > :32:22.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:23. > :32:33.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:34. > :32:37.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:38. > :32:42.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:43. > :32:47.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:48. > :32:49.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces,
:32:50. > :32:59.everything. There are 43 forces there is ACPO, there is the College
:33:00. > :33:03.Of Policing... People say it was a handful of police officers, it
:33:04. > :33:08.wasn't, it was six senior police officers who were alleged to have
:33:09. > :33:11.doctored 106 D4 statements. Even today we are hearing that more than
:33:12. > :33:18.1000 officers are yet to be spoken to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we
:33:19. > :33:25.pretend that Hillsborough, and some of these examples, are the exception
:33:26. > :33:31.rather than the rule? What is the evidence that this is now prevalent
:33:32. > :33:34.in our police? I think there is a lot of evidence, and Plebgate is
:33:35. > :33:38.probably the thing which has clinched it. The public want to
:33:39. > :33:43.know, how deep does this girl? The audacity of a group of policemen who
:33:44. > :33:47.think they can set up a Cabinet minister. Five of those who were
:33:48. > :33:51.arrested and bailed still have not been charged. One of those officers
:33:52. > :33:55.actually wrote an e-mail pretending to be a member of the public. I do
:33:56. > :33:59.not see what the problem is in prosecuting them for that. Taking
:34:00. > :34:02.Plebgate, there are loads of different bits of that incident.
:34:03. > :34:05.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:06. > :34:10.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:11. > :34:13.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:14. > :34:16.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:17. > :34:25.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:26. > :34:28.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:29. > :34:33.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:34. > :34:36.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:37. > :34:40.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:41. > :34:43.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us,
:34:44. > :34:43.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:44. > :34:46.It looks very much to all of us, the public, that the police are at war
:34:47. > :34:50.with the government, and they are going to do anything they can to
:34:51. > :34:55.discredit the Government. The police would have every reason to be at war
:34:56. > :35:03.with the Government, because there if there is a crisis of trust... But
:35:04. > :35:11.it looks like they fitted up a Cabinet minister. That remains to be
:35:12. > :35:15.seen, it is being investigated. We know that those Birmingham officers,
:35:16. > :35:20.they totally misrepresented to, if not lied outright, about what was
:35:21. > :35:23.said. Again, that is a misrepresentation of what happened.
:35:24. > :35:27.If you actually go and look at what is said, it is plain from the
:35:28. > :35:35.context, they were saying, he has told us nothing new. But he had in
:35:36. > :35:42.the transcript, it said he hadn't. He would not admit he had used the
:35:43. > :35:45.word pleb. He apologised profusely, he said it would never happen again,
:35:46. > :35:53.he said many things that he had not said before. I agree, which is
:35:54. > :35:55.presumably... Thereon many police forces in this country, they have
:35:56. > :36:01.one of the toughest jobs in the land, they end up getting involved
:36:02. > :36:08.in almost anything which happens in society, and there are obviously a
:36:09. > :36:13.number of difficult examples, but what is the evidence that it is out
:36:14. > :36:17.of hand, other than just several bad apples? This bad apples argument, we
:36:18. > :36:20.have some amazing police people, have some amazing police people
:36:21. > :36:23.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:24. > :36:28.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:29. > :36:31.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:32. > :36:35.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:36. > :36:40.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:41. > :36:43.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...
:36:44. > :36:52.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:53. > :36:57.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:58. > :37:01.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:02. > :37:06.that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:07. > :37:10.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:11. > :37:17.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:18. > :37:27.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:28. > :37:33.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:34. > :37:44.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:45. > :37:48.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:49. > :37:53.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:54. > :37:56.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:57. > :38:03.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:04. > :38:09.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:10. > :38:12.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:13. > :38:19.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:20. > :38:25.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:26. > :38:28.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:29. > :38:33.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead, we
:38:34. > :38:36.will be taking a look at what is coming up with our panel. At first,
:38:37. > :38:43.The Sunday Politics across the UK. Hello and welcome to the London part
:38:44. > :39:24.of the show. Boris Johnson and George Osborne
:39:25. > :39:32.went to China. They were attempting people to come with simpler Visa
:39:33. > :39:43.rules. Was it worth it? Boris thinks so. I am not going to come back to
:39:44. > :39:47.London with a panda. But we will have billions of pounds worth of
:39:48. > :39:54.investment. This trip helps keep that going. Boris Johnson there Are
:39:55. > :39:59.you optimistic that this trip will manifest in jobs for Londoners? Well
:40:00. > :40:05.whether it is opportunities for London businesses, or even improving
:40:06. > :40:13.the tourist economy, that would be a good thing. But if it is more about
:40:14. > :40:20.promoting Boris Johnson, I am not so sure. I think he does like to demote
:40:21. > :40:29.himself quite a lot and has lofty ambitions of his own. Would Ken
:40:30. > :40:34.Livingstone have done the same sort of thing? Well, I think Ken had an
:40:35. > :40:40.office in Beijing, which was about an ongoing relationship, a
:40:41. > :40:44.sustainable relationship. James Brokenshire, surely Theresa May must
:40:45. > :40:47.be extremely worried about this idea of relaxing these rules when the
:40:48. > :40:52.thrust of your government has been to crack down on net migration, and
:40:53. > :40:56.bringing the number is down to tens of thousands, when Boris Johnson is
:40:57. > :41:00.saying, let's relax the rules and encourage more immigrants to
:41:01. > :41:04.London? I think it is important to note that we have been entirely
:41:05. > :41:06.consistent in saying that we want the brightest and the best to come
:41:07. > :41:09.to this country. George Osborne, to this country. George Osborne
:41:10. > :41:14.what he said is underlining how we can ensure that the Visa process, it
:41:15. > :41:18.is not being relaxed, can be done more effectively, turned around in
:41:19. > :41:22.24 hours, that the forms which are therefore Chinese business people to
:41:23. > :41:24.come to London and to be able to trade, that is done effectively so
:41:25. > :41:30.trade, that is done effectively, so that we can see an increase as we
:41:31. > :41:33.are seeking, in terms of doubling the amount of trade between this
:41:34. > :41:38.country and China. This is not about personality, it is about advocating
:41:39. > :41:42.London and the UK. Making a special case for China, because Boris
:41:43. > :41:46.Johnson said, a relaxation of these rules Chinese people coming to the
:41:47. > :41:51.UK, which flies in the face of what you are saying about known EU
:41:52. > :41:54.migrants. It does not, because we are focused on reducing migration,
:41:55. > :42:02.and dealing with the problem that Labour left as one uncontrolled
:42:03. > :42:05.immigration. -- non-EU. We want to get good, effective, Chinese
:42:06. > :42:07.business people here, focused on growing the trade between our two
:42:08. > :42:12.countries. Since its inception 13 countries. Since its inception 3
:42:13. > :42:16.years ago, City Hall and the mayor have become potent landmarks on the
:42:17. > :42:23.political landscape of the landscape -- of London. But what about the
:42:24. > :42:25.London assembly? It was set up to scrutinise the mayor. This week, the
:42:26. > :42:28.scrutinise the mayor. This week the role of the assembly has come under
:42:29. > :42:38.attack from its neighbour across the river, Parliament. Have you read the
:42:39. > :42:45.Assembly report on food poverty in London? I am aware of the broad
:42:46. > :42:48.conclusions of the report... The job of the London assembly is to
:42:49. > :42:53.scrutinise the mayor, but a new report from Parliament says the
:42:54. > :43:05.assembly needs new powers to be able to do that properly. Do you know
:43:06. > :43:07.what it is? No. Not really, no. Intended to be relatively weak
:43:08. > :43:09.compared to the mayor 's office, Intended to be relatively weak
:43:10. > :43:11.compared to the mayor 's office the compared to the mayor 's office, the
:43:12. > :43:14.Assembly was never supposed to regularly block policy. It was not
:43:15. > :43:19.given the right to vote down his plans, except with a two thirds
:43:20. > :43:23.majority, and even then, it can only reject a very broad strategies,
:43:24. > :43:29.rather than specific initiatives. The mayor has yet to lose a vote. I
:43:30. > :43:31.do not think it has been holding the mayor to account adequately. This is
:43:32. > :43:39.for a number of reasons, including the fact that they are relatively
:43:40. > :43:43.small in number, not properly organised enough, and secondly, they
:43:44. > :43:48.have not found it was a bore, with one or two exceptions, to drill into
:43:49. > :43:52.what the mayor has been doing consistently over time, and in
:43:53. > :43:55.particular, to look at transport, policing and other services and
:43:56. > :44:09.follow the numbers, follow the money, really. According to this
:44:10. > :44:16.many many inconsistencies which need to be sorted out. Assembly members
:44:17. > :44:19.can join the mayoral team which runs the fire brigade or deals with our
:44:20. > :44:23.rubbish, but not the office for policing and crime. The fact that
:44:24. > :44:28.some of them sit, for example, on the fire authority, none of them sit
:44:29. > :44:35.on transport for London, you are asking, why is that? So, getting a
:44:36. > :44:43.consistent approach to the Assembly, it would be a help. There may be
:44:44. > :44:47.inconsistencies, but Londoners are more likely to worry about how
:44:48. > :44:50.effective the assembler is, and whether it has been worth the ? 00
:44:51. > :44:55.whether it has been worth the ?100 million it will have cost them by
:44:56. > :44:58.2016. I am joined from Sheffield by Labour MP Clive Betts, chair of the
:44:59. > :45:05.Communities And Local Government Select Committee, and by the newly
:45:06. > :45:08.appointed parliamentary private secretary to Eric Pickles, the
:45:09. > :45:15.Communities Secretary. Live bets, why should Londoners care about the
:45:16. > :45:20.powers that the Assembly has? Clearly, the male will always have
:45:21. > :45:26.more publicity than the Assembly, but it is important that any powers
:45:27. > :45:31.the mayor has must be held to account by a body which scrutinises
:45:32. > :45:36.what he is doing, asks questions, and in certain cases, if necessary,
:45:37. > :45:40.amends the budget if a two thirds majority thinks that should be
:45:41. > :45:42.amended. What we were saying is that the Assembly has not got sufficient
:45:43. > :45:50.powers to hold the mayor to account in that way. So, was it set up
:45:51. > :45:54.incorrectly by Nick Raynsford, the former Labour minister? No, it has
:45:55. > :46:01.grown over the years, leaving inconsistencies. The Assembly does
:46:02. > :46:04.not have the power to call in inconsistencies from the mayor, in
:46:05. > :46:05.the way that any local council up and down the country would have. The
:46:06. > :46:10.and down the country would have The Assembly should have a right to
:46:11. > :46:14.question him on things before they are implemented. We mentioned the
:46:15. > :46:18.budget, and when he puts forward to oppose all is for day-to-day expo
:46:19. > :46:23.joke, the Assembly can amend that, but on capital expenditure, ?5
:46:24. > :46:28.billion a year, the Assembly has no say on that at all. That cannot be
:46:29. > :46:33.right. What specifically would you like the Assembly to be able to do?
:46:34. > :46:37.Are you saying that they should be given a wider remit, in terms of the
:46:38. > :46:49.two thirds majority to block or reject proposals which They should
:46:50. > :46:55.have the power to call things in. He has a new policy proposal and comes
:46:56. > :47:00.up with an idea. They should be allowed to say to the mayoral, hold
:47:01. > :47:07.on, before you implement this you must produce a report for assembly
:47:08. > :47:13.members to consider. In the end it would be a decision for the mayoral
:47:14. > :47:18.to go ahead but the assembly should have the right to question it. The
:47:19. > :47:24.assembly does have powers to reject the mayoral's strategies by two
:47:25. > :47:28.thirds majority, except of course for policing plan. That is an
:47:29. > :47:36.inconsistency. Is it not ridiculous that this body cannot scrutinise
:47:37. > :47:44.what the mayor is doing. Well the assembly was set up so the Labour
:47:45. > :47:50.Party could not better the mayor. There is an argument that there is
:47:51. > :47:57.some tidying up to be done. But it is not a priority at the moment. The
:47:58. > :48:04.key issue for Londoners are things like housing and high streets. And
:48:05. > :48:08.the London electorate, they can call the mayor to account every four
:48:09. > :48:14.years. They are not clamouring for change. I think there are more
:48:15. > :48:19.important things to do in parliamentary time. So you're saying
:48:20. > :48:29.that the American do what he likes in four years in terms of policing
:48:30. > :48:32.and budget. -- the mayor. He is accountable to the electorate of
:48:33. > :48:39.London. The assembly have the ability to question him and ask him
:48:40. > :48:44.to think again. There is an argument for tidying up some of the powers
:48:45. > :48:50.but there are more pressing issues. Give me one example where the the
:48:51. > :48:54.assembly has managed to block a major proposal? With a two thirds
:48:55. > :48:58.majority, they have the power to block the budget. But that would be
:48:59. > :49:08.a big deal, the entire budget. Should they not have that power over
:49:09. > :49:12.policing and transport? You should look at putting in new powers, but
:49:13. > :49:17.not straightaway. It is not a priority? The GLA has been in
:49:18. > :49:24.existence for around the teen years. It is time to look at these things
:49:25. > :49:29.afresh. This year we had a very interesting set of circumstances
:49:30. > :49:33.with the mayoral's budget, which will result in one in ten fire
:49:34. > :49:39.stations in London closing. The majority of Londoners do not want
:49:40. > :49:45.this. Neither did the majority of assembly members but he was able to
:49:46. > :49:48.steam roller that through. So the wishes of Londoners are being
:49:49. > :49:54.overwritten? We heard from one expert in local government. They
:49:55. > :49:59.just do not have powers to stop him. I think the mayor is doing a great
:50:00. > :50:07.job for London. But that is not the question. I think the assembly can
:50:08. > :50:13.scrutinise effect to flee. They have produced a range of fabulous reports
:50:14. > :50:18.that are taken into consideration by the mayor. There may be some tidying
:50:19. > :50:24.up to do but it is that rather than anything fundamental. It does not
:50:25. > :50:29.seem that the recommendations of your report will be taken on. But
:50:30. > :50:35.you propose moving assembly members from the executive bodies. But then
:50:36. > :50:43.would that not result in less transparency? No, they would not be
:50:44. > :50:49.confused and muddled by being on those executive bodies so it is not
:50:50. > :50:56.clear who is response will. There are assembly members on the fire
:50:57. > :51:06.authority. They can be assembly members for transport but none have
:51:07. > :51:11.been appointed. All that really is a mess and needs to be tidied up. This
:51:12. > :51:17.is not a Labour Party proposal but a cross-party proposal. Would you be a
:51:18. > :51:24.little more urgent about this issue if there was a Labour mayor in place
:51:25. > :51:29.at City Hall? No, I think there is an argument for tidying up but it is
:51:30. > :51:33.not a priority at the moment in parliamentary time. There are things
:51:34. > :51:39.like housing and high streets instead that are important. The
:51:40. > :51:49.mayor is accountable. We can tidy up when we have time but it is not
:51:50. > :51:54.urgent. Not any time soon. An investigation by this programme
:51:55. > :51:58.into town hall corruption in London has found that 80% of local
:51:59. > :52:03.authorities have successfully prosecuted their own staff for fraud
:52:04. > :52:06.in the past three years. Are the councils who have not made any
:52:07. > :52:11.prosecutions were once that we should worry about?
:52:12. > :52:15.This programme as every local authority in London whether they
:52:16. > :52:19.found their own staff committing fraud in the past three years. 5
:52:20. > :52:19.found their own staff committing fraud in the past three years. 25 of
:52:20. > :52:25.fraud in the past three years. 5 of 33 got back to us and just short of
:52:26. > :52:33.80% had their own workers successfully persecuted for some
:52:34. > :52:36.kind of fraud. Barnett gave us a great insight into the type of cases
:52:37. > :52:51.we are dealing with. For example a scheme involving defrauding in the
:52:52. > :52:57.housing sector. But it is not just money. Barnett has an operation into
:52:58. > :53:05.illegal workers infiltrating into the council as signal enforcement
:53:06. > :53:12.officers. They found that staff had used to get the job. And in Ealing
:53:13. > :53:18.town Hall officers entered the building and took away three illegal
:53:19. > :53:22.migrants working there. Seven council workers have been
:53:23. > :53:31.prosecuted, and they say that is a sign of good this. It is a big issue
:53:32. > :53:35.for some councils. In the past they have been hit with a big stick by
:53:36. > :53:41.central government and others when they discover fraud. The implication
:53:42. > :53:46.being it happened on your watch and you should not have allowed it to
:53:47. > :53:51.happen. But that misses the fact that all organisations are
:53:52. > :53:55.vulnerable to fraud. And so any organisation should be pleased if
:53:56. > :53:58.they do find a fraudster and should make a song and dance about taking
:53:59. > :54:03.them through the process and bringing them to justice. Lambeth in
:54:04. > :54:08.the late 20th century had a bad reputation for corruption. One of
:54:09. > :54:13.the men responsible for cleaning it up said that he found it surprising
:54:14. > :54:24.that some local authorities had not had any staff prosecuted. Fraud
:54:25. > :54:27.running at 5.5% of your budget can be a massive sum. Looking at the
:54:28. > :54:37.London figures, 20 billion pounds per year is spent on services.
:54:38. > :54:43.Cutting that by 40% within 12 months could free up ?400 million for
:54:44. > :54:49.better local services. That is something to concentrate on. Getting
:54:50. > :54:55.the police to prosecute can be a problem. In cases in Wandsworth the
:54:56. > :55:08.police had enough evidence but would not prosecute. This includes one
:55:09. > :55:14.employee you, where it amounted to an overpayment of ?39,000. It is
:55:15. > :55:19.disappointing when we go to the police and they say they do not have
:55:20. > :55:24.the capacity of a certain threshold. That is disappointing. But that is
:55:25. > :55:28.the way things are at the moment given the pressure on public
:55:29. > :55:32.finances. Could it be that those authorities who have seen their own
:55:33. > :55:38.workers guilty of defrauding the taxpayer are the ones building
:55:39. > :55:43.strong cases? It is the ones who have not who have questions to
:55:44. > :55:47.answer. ?1 in every ?20 spent by local
:55:48. > :55:53.authorities is fraudulent. Are you surprised by that? I do not know how
:55:54. > :56:00.those figures have been arrived at. But I think it should be a zero
:56:01. > :56:03.tolerance approach. This is about trust in public services and also
:56:04. > :56:10.about ensuring that in difficult economic times, every pound spent is
:56:11. > :56:13.spent wisely and used to best effect. So local authorities need
:56:14. > :56:18.proper procedures in place full stop the culture has to be right and they
:56:19. > :56:23.also have to have the resources to be able to do this work. There is a
:56:24. > :56:27.lot of focus on protecting front-line services. And we have
:56:28. > :56:33.seen massive cuts to local authorities. You have to also invest
:56:34. > :56:40.in these offers functions in order to be able to tackle this problem.
:56:41. > :56:44.Clearly it does need to be tackled. Is it worth spending money on? We
:56:45. > :56:51.have heard about the need for efficiencies and savings. You do not
:56:52. > :56:55.hear much about this fraud problem. Well it is a significant problem in
:56:56. > :56:59.all public services and the government is resolute in saying we
:57:00. > :57:03.need to tackle organised crime groups involved in this, in some
:57:04. > :57:08.cases. We have launched the National crime agency and it has a clear
:57:09. > :57:13.focus on fraud. One of the examples we gave was one local authority
:57:14. > :57:20.which found it had contracted out a mini crab servers that was actually
:57:21. > :57:26.run by organised crime network. -- minicab service. But some say there
:57:27. > :57:32.is not the support from central government to prosecute these cases.
:57:33. > :57:37.Its central government involved enough good smack it is supporting
:57:38. > :57:42.the fight against fraud. We have put in place the mechanisms with the
:57:43. > :57:49.National crime agency. Fraud is not a victimless crime. It is a focus
:57:50. > :57:54.for us in our enforcement at liberty. You need people and
:57:55. > :58:00.resources to investigate it. You need that joined up approach whether
:58:01. > :58:05.from local authorities and police, to actually tackle blaze and take it
:58:06. > :58:09.through the courts. Local authorities are taking this more
:58:10. > :58:13.seriously. They are raising their standards. We are seeking to work
:58:14. > :58:19.with them to identify fraud more effectively. That is money coming
:58:20. > :58:23.out of taxpayers pockets. We do need a focus on this in the way that I
:58:24. > :58:28.have suggested and that is what we are doing. But reputational damage
:58:29. > :58:33.is an issue for local authorities. Is that I have is part of the reason
:58:34. > :58:39.they may not have pursued some of these cases? I would like to think
:58:40. > :58:45.that is not a reason for them not taking action. But it must be a
:58:46. > :58:49.consideration. I would say authorities need to take this very
:58:50. > :58:55.seriously. It is also joining things up. If people are defrauding one
:58:56. > :59:01.organisation they are unlikely to be doing it in another.
:59:02. > :59:14.Now Kate Ford has the rest of the political news. Inside out has
:59:15. > :59:20.revealed some estate agents might be breaking race discrimination laws on
:59:21. > :59:22.behalf of landlords. The evidence suggests some leading agencies have
:59:23. > :59:26.been discriminating against black people searching for a home in the
:59:27. > :59:33.private rental market. The agents deny this. The move to put a former
:59:34. > :59:37.Whitehall police station on the banks of the Thames into a different
:59:38. > :59:44.use is part of a plan to sell off large parts of the police estate in
:59:45. > :59:47.the next few years. It has been alleged that Transport for London
:59:48. > :59:57.ignored police warnings about the dangers faced by cyclists in the new
:59:58. > :00:03.cycle lanes. Thames Water's unjustified bid to add a surcharge
:00:04. > :00:15.next year has been denied, according to a watchdog. So, are we back in a
:00:16. > :00:20.world of no dogs, no Irish, no blacks, when it comes to housing? I
:00:21. > :00:24.think some people's experience in London is awful, when they are
:00:25. > :00:29.trying to find a property to rent. There are unscrupulous letting
:00:30. > :00:34.agents, who say some dreadful things and do some dreadful things, and so,
:00:35. > :00:38.I am really pleased that the Equality And Human Rights Commission
:00:39. > :00:43.is looking into this. It is this sort of thing which does not make me
:00:44. > :00:46.proud to be a Londoner, when normally I am very proud to be
:00:47. > :00:51.living in this city. In the 21st century, is this the kind of thing
:00:52. > :00:56.you would expect? I think it is quite shocking, in terms of what we
:00:57. > :00:59.have just heard on there. It should be about judging the right tenant,
:01:00. > :01:04.not the colour of their skin, for goodness sake. It is utterly
:01:05. > :01:09.unacceptable. Is it strange that this has come to the fore? I do not
:01:10. > :01:12.think it is particularly strange, because we have had a lot of
:01:13. > :01:15.rhetoric from the Government in the last couple of days, with the
:01:16. > :01:21.Immigration Bill coming up on Tuesday, trying to whip up tensions,
:01:22. > :01:27.and this is part of what is going on. I am sorry, trying to conflate
:01:28. > :01:32.that with some kind of racism, that is unfair. The focus is on driving
:01:33. > :01:36.down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you
:01:37. > :01:45.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:46. > :01:53.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:54. > :01:59.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:02:00. > :02:05.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:06. > :02:09.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:10. > :02:17.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:18. > :02:23.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:24. > :02:27.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:28. > :02:38.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:39. > :02:43.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:44. > :02:48.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:49. > :02:52.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:53. > :02:56.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:57. > :03:01.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:02. > :03:04.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:05. > :03:10.be on the liberal centre ground But be on the liberal centre ground. But
:03:11. > :03:13.is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a
:03:14. > :03:20.danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a
:03:21. > :03:24.difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring,
:03:25. > :03:29.inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:30. > :03:33.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:34. > :03:38.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:39. > :03:41.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:42. > :03:44.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:45. > :03:51.the deficit down, cutting crime, keeping interest rates low, and
:03:52. > :03:54.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:55. > :03:57.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:58. > :04:02.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:03. > :04:05.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:06. > :04:07.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:08. > :04:08.policies excesses in government. should be able to claim for our
:04:09. > :04:10.policies excesses in government I policies excesses in government. I
:04:11. > :04:18.want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal.
:04:19. > :04:21.If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond
:04:22. > :04:25.positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick
:04:26. > :04:32.Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools
:04:33. > :04:41.policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal
:04:42. > :04:46.policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit. We
:04:47. > :04:50.have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last
:04:51. > :04:53.fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has
:04:54. > :04:57.stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a
:04:58. > :05:01.reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that
:05:02. > :05:04.Britain lags behind our competitors, the other
:05:05. > :05:08.industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of
:05:09. > :05:12.15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous
:05:13. > :05:15.situation in this country where two thirds of children from
:05:16. > :05:25.disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade
:05:26. > :05:28.C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we
:05:29. > :05:31.could have an interesting conversation about how we are able
:05:32. > :05:35.to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good
:05:36. > :05:39.things one less good things which have happened in our schools over
:05:40. > :05:44.the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting
:05:45. > :05:47.young people down who need a good quality education in order to
:05:48. > :05:53.realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not
:05:54. > :05:58.share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for
:05:59. > :06:03.us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist, and
:06:04. > :06:07.I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the
:06:08. > :06:13.status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic,
:06:14. > :06:15.liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and
:06:16. > :06:20.responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people.
:06:21. > :06:24.As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good
:06:25. > :06:28.teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils,
:06:29. > :06:31.overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the
:06:32. > :06:44.status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can
:06:45. > :06:48.innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well, I
:06:49. > :06:53.Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right
:06:54. > :07:00.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:01. > :07:05.Conservatives have, if you like, made some advances or generous
:07:06. > :07:08.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:09. > :07:11.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:12. > :07:15.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:16. > :07:20.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:21. > :07:24.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:25. > :07:30.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:31. > :07:33.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:34. > :07:39.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:40. > :07:42.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:43. > :07:52.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:53. > :07:57.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:58. > :08:02.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:03. > :08:05.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:06. > :08:10.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:11. > :08:14.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:15. > :08:26.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:27. > :08:32.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:33. > :08:35.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:36. > :08:39.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:40. > :08:45.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:46. > :08:50.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:51. > :08:54.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:55. > :08:58.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:59. > :09:02.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:03. > :09:05.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:06. > :09:09.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:10. > :09:14.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:15. > :09:19.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:20. > :09:22.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:23. > :09:26.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:27. > :09:30.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:31. > :09:33.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:34. > :09:42.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:43. > :09:44.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:45. > :09:48.not get the credit anyway. Well if not get the credit anyway. Well, if
:09:49. > :09:54.they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get
:09:55. > :09:59.the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire,
:10:00. > :10:02.he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are
:10:03. > :10:08.they going to get those voters from? They have not got those
:10:09. > :10:13.anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour
:10:14. > :10:18.voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards
:10:19. > :10:26.labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this
:10:27. > :10:30.might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron
:10:31. > :10:34.and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need
:10:35. > :10:40.to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it
:10:41. > :10:51.looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy
:10:52. > :10:53.George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry
:10:54. > :10:59.Potter's first girlfriend? That s Potter's first girlfriend? That's
:11:00. > :11:07.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:08. > :11:11.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:12. > :11:17.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:18. > :11:21.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:22. > :11:26.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:27. > :11:30.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:31. > :11:36.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:37. > :11:39.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:40. > :11:46.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:47. > :11:50.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:51. > :11:57.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:58. > :12:01.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:02. > :12:06.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:07. > :12:15.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:16. > :12:17.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip,
:12:18. > :12:20.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and
:12:21. > :12:23.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:24. > :12:26.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:27. > :12:30.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:31. > :12:35.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:36. > :12:42.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:43. > :12:48.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:49. > :12:52.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:53. > :13:03.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:04. > :13:10.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:11. > :13:12.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:13. > :13:20.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:21. > :13:25.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:26. > :13:31.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:32. > :13:36.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:37. > :13:39.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:40. > :13:43.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:44. > :13:46.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:47. > :13:56.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means,
:13:57. > :14:00.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:01. > :14:04.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:05. > :14:08.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:09. > :14:15.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.