:00:35. > :00:40.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:41. > :00:43.the war path over pay day loans, the war path over pay day loans
:00:44. > :00:47.your energy bill and what he calls the bedroom tax. His spinners say
:00:48. > :00:52.he's resurgent though the polls don't show it. We'll be talking to
:00:53. > :00:57.his right hand woman, Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From
:00:58. > :01:00.resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage won an award this week for being a
:01:01. > :01:09.political insurgent. We'll be talking to the UKIP leader. And
:01:10. > :01:13.Harriet hates, hates, hates page three. She wants rid of it. But what
:01:14. > :01:24.do you think? We sent Adam out with some balls. Stay. It is good fun for
:01:25. > :01:33.the guys. What do you think about people who think it is exploitative?
:01:34. > :01:45.It is free choice. In London, the row over the super sewer rumbles on.
:01:46. > :01:50.And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars
:01:51. > :01:55.auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on
:01:56. > :01:59.your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:02:00. > :02:03.First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night
:02:04. > :02:13.without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies
:02:14. > :02:16.didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear
:02:17. > :02:19.programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another
:02:20. > :02:22.meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign
:02:23. > :02:25.Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the
:02:26. > :02:34.question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good
:02:35. > :02:40.chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and
:02:41. > :02:46.negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of
:02:47. > :02:53.energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal
:02:54. > :02:59.which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to
:03:00. > :03:04.be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put
:03:05. > :03:09.the case for the kind of deal we are looking
:03:10. > :03:09.the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,
:03:10. > :03:15.including interests of the whole world,
:03:16. > :03:19.the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in
:03:20. > :03:23.this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear
:03:24. > :03:26.proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about
:03:27. > :03:35.this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about
:03:36. > :03:40.prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor
:03:41. > :03:53.it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.
:03:54. > :03:57.France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a
:03:58. > :03:59.disruptive influence in Lebanon. line on Iran. They see it as a
:04:00. > :04:04.disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will
:04:05. > :04:08.be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic
:04:09. > :04:16.sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have
:04:17. > :04:21.pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new
:04:22. > :04:29.president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.
:04:30. > :04:36.I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these
:04:37. > :04:43.talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at
:04:44. > :04:49.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:50. > :04:54.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:55. > :05:03.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:04. > :05:13.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:14. > :05:22.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:23. > :05:26.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:27. > :05:34.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:35. > :05:41.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:42. > :05:49.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:50. > :05:53.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:54. > :05:59.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:00. > :06:04.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:05. > :06:11.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:12. > :06:18.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:19. > :06:24.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:25. > :06:29.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:30. > :06:32.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:33. > :06:36.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:37. > :06:45.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:46. > :06:49.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:50. > :06:53.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:54. > :06:59.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:00. > :07:02.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again -
:07:03. > :07:04.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you
:07:05. > :07:09.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:10. > :07:16.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:17. > :07:21.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:22. > :07:25.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:26. > :07:30.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:31. > :07:34.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:35. > :07:39.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:40. > :07:47.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:48. > :07:56.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:57. > :07:59.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:00. > :08:04.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:05. > :08:12.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:13. > :08:15.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:16. > :08:21.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:22. > :08:25.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:26. > :08:31.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:32. > :08:35.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:36. > :08:40.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:41. > :08:44.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:45. > :08:52.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:53. > :08:57.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:08:58. > :09:01.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly
:09:02. > :09:06.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:07. > :09:12.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:13. > :09:17.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:18. > :09:23.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:24. > :09:28.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:29. > :09:38.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:39. > :09:42.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:43. > :09:48.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:49. > :09:52.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:53. > :09:58.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:09:59. > :10:05.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:06. > :10:11.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:12. > :10:16.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:17. > :10:23.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:24. > :10:31.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:32. > :10:39.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We
:10:40. > :10:45.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:46. > :10:47.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:48. > :10:57.world and they will create jobs. The world and they will create jobs The
:10:58. > :11:02.head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British
:11:03. > :11:07.business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of
:11:08. > :11:15.jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With
:11:16. > :11:24.Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say
:11:25. > :11:30.what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future
:11:31. > :11:35.investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the
:11:36. > :11:38.plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be
:11:39. > :11:42.careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they
:11:43. > :11:48.may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take
:11:49. > :11:54.that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now
:11:55. > :11:59.they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority
:12:00. > :12:02.saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.
:12:03. > :12:09.The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and
:12:10. > :12:13.we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There
:12:14. > :12:18.is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,
:12:19. > :12:24.manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the
:12:25. > :12:32.costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at
:12:33. > :12:39.the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins
:12:40. > :12:44.with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,
:12:45. > :12:53.most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are
:12:54. > :12:57.going to lose, aren't you? In 1975, the circumstances were exactly the
:12:58. > :13:01.same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very
:13:02. > :13:05.little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to
:13:06. > :13:12.stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.
:13:13. > :13:17.We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.
:13:18. > :13:21.These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly
:13:22. > :13:24.enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they
:13:25. > :13:31.vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I
:13:32. > :13:36.am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,
:13:37. > :13:45.we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance
:13:46. > :14:05.of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small
:14:06. > :14:08.publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most
:14:09. > :14:16.important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,
:14:17. > :14:19.there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party
:14:20. > :14:26.issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to
:14:27. > :14:29.this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is
:14:30. > :14:43.to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know
:14:44. > :14:54.that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the
:14:55. > :15:05.risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that
:15:06. > :15:14.verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They
:15:15. > :15:19.can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After
:15:20. > :15:23.these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr
:15:24. > :15:33.Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is
:15:34. > :15:36.scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young
:15:37. > :15:40.British workers between 16 and 74 British workers between 16 and 4
:15:41. > :15:45.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:46. > :15:50.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:51. > :16:00.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:01. > :16:03.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:04. > :16:08.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:09. > :16:11.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:12. > :16:16.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:17. > :16:19.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:20. > :16:23.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:24. > :16:28.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:29. > :16:33.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:34. > :16:36.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:37. > :16:40.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:41. > :16:45.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:46. > :16:50.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:51. > :16:52.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:53. > :16:55.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:56. > :16:59.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:17:00. > :17:03.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:04. > :17:07.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:08. > :17:10.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:11. > :17:13.for you, it will stir things up? If for you, it will stir things up If
:17:14. > :17:16.you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a
:17:17. > :17:21.safety net of a benefits system, safety net of a benefits system
:17:22. > :17:25.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:26. > :17:30.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:31. > :17:33.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:34. > :17:36.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:37. > :17:40.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:41. > :17:44.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:45. > :17:48.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:49. > :17:51.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:52. > :17:55.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:56. > :17:58.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:17:59. > :18:04.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:05. > :18:11.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:12. > :18:17.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:18. > :18:27.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:28. > :18:30.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:31. > :18:35.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:36. > :18:40.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:41. > :18:44.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:45. > :18:49.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:50. > :18:53.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:54. > :18:56.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:57. > :19:05.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:06. > :19:11.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:12. > :19:17.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:18. > :19:25.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:26. > :19:30.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:31. > :19:34.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:35. > :19:39.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:40. > :19:42.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:43. > :19:46.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:47. > :19:51.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:52. > :19:54.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:55. > :19:56.incentivised by the bedroom tax, who've downsized by being
:19:57. > :19:59.incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council
:20:00. > :20:04.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:05. > :20:08.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:09. > :20:10.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of
:20:11. > :20:13.But actually, something like 96% of the people who're going to be hit by
:20:14. > :20:17.the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move
:20:18. > :20:20.into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my
:20:21. > :20:26.constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by 700
:20:27. > :20:31.a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence
:20:32. > :20:36.of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided
:20:37. > :20:40.to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?
:20:41. > :20:46.11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the
:20:47. > :20:50.way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's
:20:51. > :20:54.not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils
:20:55. > :20:57.provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,000
:20:58. > :21:01.come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:02. > :21:05.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:06. > :21:09.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:10. > :21:12.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:13. > :21:17.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:18. > :21:22.work, or who find work where it's low-paid and need help with their
:21:23. > :21:26.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:27. > :21:29.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:30. > :21:34.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:35. > :21:38.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:39. > :21:43.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:44. > :21:46.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:47. > :21:50.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:51. > :21:53.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:54. > :21:57.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:58. > :21:59.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:00. > :22:02.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:03. > :22:07.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:08. > :22:10.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:11. > :22:17.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:18. > :22:21.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:22. > :22:25.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:26. > :22:28.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:29. > :22:32.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:33. > :22:36.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:37. > :22:39.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:40. > :22:43.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:44. > :22:47.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:48. > :22:51.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:52. > :22:55.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:56. > :22:59.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:00. > :23:05.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:06. > :23:09.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:10. > :23:14.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:15. > :23:17.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:18. > :23:21.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:22. > :23:25.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:26. > :23:29.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:30. > :23:33.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:34. > :23:37.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:38. > :23:41.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:42. > :23:45.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:46. > :23:50.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:51. > :23:53.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:54. > :23:59.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:24:00. > :24:02.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:03. > :24:07.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:08. > :24:12.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:13. > :24:17.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:18. > :24:22.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:23. > :24:23.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off, we
:24:24. > :24:26.for pensioners, who're well off we are saying they don't need the
:24:27. > :24:30.Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to
:24:31. > :24:35.people in this country, we do think that there should be that
:24:36. > :24:38.tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be
:24:39. > :24:44.offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our
:24:45. > :24:48.case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as
:24:49. > :24:51.popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.
:24:52. > :24:56.Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the
:24:57. > :25:00.latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten
:25:01. > :25:04.worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly
:25:05. > :25:09.opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political
:25:10. > :25:12.commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since
:25:13. > :25:20.Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New
:25:21. > :25:23.Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won
:25:24. > :25:25.their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal
:25:26. > :25:31.Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In
:25:32. > :25:36.1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council
:25:37. > :25:42.seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in
:25:43. > :25:47.the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the
:25:48. > :25:50.third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now
:25:51. > :25:55.saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,
:25:56. > :25:59.Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are
:26:00. > :26:02.average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them
:26:03. > :26:08.when the economy starts to grow? Well, I've just said to you, I'm not
:26:09. > :26:11.a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting
:26:12. > :26:14.policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what
:26:15. > :26:19.they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the
:26:20. > :26:23.plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we
:26:24. > :26:28.have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now
:26:29. > :26:33.starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask
:26:34. > :26:36.you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to
:26:37. > :26:41.no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the
:26:42. > :26:44.economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living
:26:45. > :26:48.standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth.
:26:49. > :26:51.What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the
:26:52. > :26:55.economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will
:26:56. > :26:59.recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too
:27:00. > :27:03.long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely
:27:04. > :27:07.right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they
:27:08. > :27:11.are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are
:27:12. > :27:17.right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next
:27:18. > :27:21.year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of
:27:22. > :27:26.David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen
:27:27. > :27:30.slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You
:27:31. > :27:33.will know that the broader measurement, real household
:27:34. > :27:36.disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything
:27:37. > :27:42.into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say
:27:43. > :27:47.where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that
:27:48. > :27:51.happens, what is your next line? There is a set of arguments about
:27:52. > :27:56.living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems
:27:57. > :28:00.that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I
:28:01. > :28:06.can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other
:28:07. > :28:11.question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed
:28:12. > :28:15.Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks
:28:16. > :28:20.like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will
:28:21. > :28:24.a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign
:28:25. > :28:28.up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter
:28:29. > :28:31.does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the
:28:32. > :28:36.newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My
:28:37. > :28:39.question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do
:28:40. > :28:43.with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the
:28:44. > :28:47.wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The
:28:48. > :28:51.newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,
:28:52. > :28:56.Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are
:28:57. > :29:00.setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it
:29:01. > :29:04.is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,
:29:05. > :29:08.we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is
:29:09. > :29:11.that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really
:29:12. > :29:16.turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll
:29:17. > :29:20.sort things out, leave it to us, then they have sorted things out but
:29:21. > :29:24.a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is
:29:25. > :29:27.check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent
:29:28. > :29:31.system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee
:29:32. > :29:34.things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that
:29:35. > :29:39.That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't
:29:40. > :29:46.force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by
:29:47. > :29:50.Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick
:29:51. > :29:54.with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution
:29:55. > :29:58.or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been
:29:59. > :30:01.dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That's
:30:02. > :30:04.dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That s 43
:30:05. > :30:08.years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent
:30:09. > :30:26.Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We
:30:27. > :30:40.have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What
:30:41. > :30:47.do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and
:30:48. > :30:54.exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go?
:30:55. > :31:00.exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go Go.
:31:01. > :31:13.I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your
:31:14. > :31:20.mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men
:31:21. > :31:33.get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.
:31:34. > :31:42.Dashes-macro know what your age Page three girls, should they stay
:31:43. > :31:47.or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page
:31:48. > :31:55.three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top
:31:56. > :32:01.on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in
:32:02. > :32:10.favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What
:32:11. > :32:13.is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the
:32:14. > :32:19.newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is
:32:20. > :32:28.degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it?
:32:29. > :32:41.Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a
:32:42. > :32:47.shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do
:32:48. > :32:55.something about their car parks Mother nature, the human body. It
:32:56. > :33:02.should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against
:33:03. > :33:06.it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.
:33:07. > :33:13.Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby
:33:14. > :33:25.daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up
:33:26. > :33:34.his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong
:33:35. > :33:42.with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page
:33:43. > :33:52.three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged
:33:53. > :33:57.22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I
:33:58. > :34:05.have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?
:34:06. > :34:14.Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not
:34:15. > :34:23.hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down
:34:24. > :34:29.for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You
:34:30. > :34:32.have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned I
:34:33. > :34:38.not arguing it should be banned. I have not argued for it to be banned
:34:39. > :34:50.but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it
:34:51. > :34:54.should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content
:34:55. > :34:59.but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in
:35:00. > :35:04.21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women
:35:05. > :35:08.in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think
:35:09. > :35:19.women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in
:35:20. > :35:20.public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political
:35:21. > :35:25.importance, that it had in the 980s importance, that it had in the 1980s
:35:26. > :35:30.when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their
:35:31. > :35:37.feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people
:35:38. > :35:42.buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not
:35:43. > :35:50.have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is
:35:51. > :35:58.outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to
:35:59. > :36:03.ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have
:36:04. > :36:10.never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been
:36:11. > :36:15.forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a
:36:16. > :36:21.boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not
:36:22. > :36:25.about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement
:36:26. > :36:32.which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being
:36:33. > :36:39.in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?
:36:40. > :36:47.I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not
:36:48. > :36:53.doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as
:36:54. > :36:56.there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as
:36:57. > :37:05.page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be
:37:06. > :37:10.Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should
:37:11. > :37:12.be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,
:37:13. > :37:18.If they changed it in Australia which is where Rupert Murdoch came
:37:19. > :37:23.from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the
:37:24. > :37:26.Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking
:37:27. > :37:27.to man leading the campaign for an English parliament. Until then, the
:37:28. > :37:48.Sunday Politics across the UK. Hello and welcome them from us and
:37:49. > :37:53.to my guests. Welcome to you both. A little later, we will be taking
:37:54. > :37:58.another look at the story causing a big stink in west London. Is there a
:37:59. > :38:02.way to reduce the disruption that is coming from building the Thames
:38:03. > :38:09.super sewer? Let's start with a story, not from London, but across
:38:10. > :38:17.the pond. New York has a new mayor. He talked about ending stop and
:38:18. > :38:22.search. He has become the first Democrat to hold the role of men in
:38:23. > :38:31.20 years. The most striking thing here, winning 73% of the vote and a
:38:32. > :38:40.really old-fashioned leftish, Liberal leader of the city.
:38:41. > :38:45.Presumably what London needs. It is an impressive result. Almost any
:38:46. > :38:50.politician I imagine would give anything for a result like that.
:38:51. > :38:56.Let's see how he does. There is talk of New York slipping backwards
:38:57. > :39:04.towards its bad old days. I do not know what will happen. Many people
:39:05. > :39:10.will think it has been a period of managerialism under Bloomberg.
:39:11. > :39:17.Perhaps given his own wealth, favouring that part of the city.
:39:18. > :39:20.What most people think about is the Giuliani years. He did some amazing
:39:21. > :39:28.things with crime figures in New York. He was there with numeric 9/11
:39:29. > :39:33.and his leadership was exemplary. A lot of leaders have thought about
:39:34. > :39:39.Republican days as being where they got law and order under control. No
:39:40. > :39:46.reason that will happen but they are the kind of concerned I have heard
:39:47. > :39:52.being expressed. It is an amazing result. Good things here swing an
:39:53. > :40:00.interesting way? A little bit more taxation of those best able to pay
:40:01. > :40:05.it in London. He has a stonking mandate. It was the result of a kind
:40:06. > :40:13.of upsurge of New Yorkers, who I think feared that New York was
:40:14. > :40:19.becoming two cities - is city of the rich and a city of the poor and
:40:20. > :40:23.dispossessed. Here you have a hugely charismatic Democratic candidate,
:40:24. > :40:31.saying, I am going to make this one city. I think that is the risk in
:40:32. > :40:38.London. Are you the person to ensure that happens in London? This is not
:40:39. > :40:44.about me personally, Tim. It is now because I have asked you. As a
:40:45. > :40:50.Labour MP serving London constituency, yes. I am concerned -
:40:51. > :40:58.deeply concerned - about this in London. You must see the bookmakers
:40:59. > :41:03.and the newspapers with your name being mentioned as a potential
:41:04. > :41:12.candidate. It is a good time to ask. Have you given up the idea of it?
:41:13. > :41:17.Have you ruled it out? It would be good to have a woman running. I am
:41:18. > :41:21.never going to vote for a Labour mayor but I would say this, I think
:41:22. > :41:28.that Tessa would be a very credible candidate. I think also, it would be
:41:29. > :41:32.great to see Labour in London coming out from under the shadows of Ken
:41:33. > :41:37.Livingstone. To have a woman taking the lead, Tessa would be a credible
:41:38. > :41:48.candidate. I think she has completely destroyed and damaged
:41:49. > :41:54.your chances. Where are you on that? Are you considering it? I am
:41:55. > :41:58.thinking about it. There are London elections, there is a general
:41:59. > :42:02.election. I am a Labour member of Parliament for Dulwich and West
:42:03. > :42:06.Norwood. No one should rush and declare themselves for an election
:42:07. > :42:12.in three years time. I have genuinely not made up my mind.
:42:13. > :42:16.Teather has told me that she considers herself to be of the
:42:17. > :42:26.centre ground in terms of politics. -- Tessa. We do not know about the
:42:27. > :42:30.Conservative candidate. The water regulator told Thames will this week
:42:31. > :42:35.it could not put up bills by 8% next year, which would have meant an
:42:36. > :42:40.increase of, on average, nearly ?30 per household. Part of the argument
:42:41. > :42:45.was it needs the money to help to pay for the super sewer to be built
:42:46. > :42:49.under the River Thames. Next week, Hammersmith Council is submitting
:42:50. > :42:52.its suggestions to a planning enquiry, arguing that disruption
:42:53. > :43:05.during the engineering process could actually be dramatically reduced.
:43:06. > :43:09.The ?4 billion Thames Tideway tunnel would run from west to east. It is
:43:10. > :43:13.essential in order to stop millions of tonnes of sewage from being
:43:14. > :43:16.pumped into the Thames every year. Thames water will need to demolish
:43:17. > :43:21.most of the building cc running along the river behind me. At the
:43:22. > :43:29.moment, they are peoples homes and peoples businesses. They will all
:43:30. > :43:40.have to go. This road in full - an area behind here - would be dug up
:43:41. > :43:47.and turned into an excavation site. -- filler. There will be 27,000
:43:48. > :43:54.extra trucks using its roads. Added to which, the road is a cycle path.
:43:55. > :43:57.Rarely a good mix with HDV is. If you are walking down the street when
:43:58. > :44:01.you would have no idea about what would happen here, unless you happen
:44:02. > :44:08.to see this sign out of the corner of your eye and decide to read it.
:44:09. > :44:11.Notice is hereby given that issues specific for compulsory acquisition
:44:12. > :44:18.hearings will be held by the examining authority, Thames
:44:19. > :44:23.utilities Ltd, for the Tideway tunnel - the project. It does not
:44:24. > :44:28.tell you what the project is. Wow that is all legally accurate and
:44:29. > :44:33.necessary, what it is not is a sign that says, public meeting, come and
:44:34. > :44:40.have your say. Most people here will not be able to understand and give
:44:41. > :44:45.their concerns. Some residents complain about a lack of engagement.
:44:46. > :44:50.Barbara is one of them. She lives with her husband, who has
:44:51. > :44:53.Alzheimer's. A proposed site is outside her flat. The buildings you
:44:54. > :44:57.can seep through the living room window will be knocked down. They
:44:58. > :45:02.will be full still it with a construction site all the time to
:45:03. > :45:10.stay few metres away from their garden. -- they will be forced to
:45:11. > :45:17.live. There will be coughs and infections. The air pollution -
:45:18. > :45:24.there will be dust. Goodness knows what will be in that dust. They have
:45:25. > :45:28.heard little about compensation. They have not guaranteed you will be
:45:29. > :45:34.in the same borough. You could end up in another part of London. I just
:45:35. > :45:39.do not know. They have not been specific as to where they would move
:45:40. > :45:45.you to. The message from here might be, not in my backyard. What if this
:45:46. > :45:52.disruption did not add to be in anyone's backyard. According to a
:45:53. > :45:55.new report, that might be the case. Written by an international
:45:56. > :46:00.construction firm, it says if Thames water chose to dispose of all the
:46:01. > :46:04.soil anywhere else, it was still be possible although it would take
:46:05. > :46:11.longer to do. It could cost more but could also cost less. It is possible
:46:12. > :46:18.you could construct the super sewer without losing this site. If that is
:46:19. > :46:23.the case, and we believe it is, then we are obliged to make sure that the
:46:24. > :46:27.powers that be are aware of this and it would be absolutely unthinkable
:46:28. > :46:33.if a drive strategy, using this site were pursued, if there were an
:46:34. > :46:40.alternative. The bitterest pill to swallow for some residents here is
:46:41. > :46:48.that despite disruption, water bills will be going up, as they will in
:46:49. > :46:53.every household across London. I'm joined by the Head of The project of
:46:54. > :46:56.Thames Water. We'll give you a chance to respond to the first point
:46:57. > :47:00.about keeping local people up to speed. Do you think you are doing
:47:01. > :47:04.enough to consult and keep people in the picture? I certainly believe we
:47:05. > :47:07.are and we have been carrying out consultation since 2010 and 2011, so
:47:08. > :47:12.consultation since 2010 and 201 , so there's been a number of years when
:47:13. > :47:16.we have been out engaging the local residents and have attended public
:47:17. > :47:20.meetings. And advertising at public meetings? Have people been attending
:47:21. > :47:24.them and they know what is going on in this part of Fulham, do they
:47:25. > :47:27.They do and we have written to people and put leaflets around
:47:28. > :47:32.informing them of the public meetings. Also we have tried hard to
:47:33. > :47:37.engage with the London borough of Fulham which systematically refuse
:47:38. > :47:41.to engage with us over the last two years. What do you mean? They've
:47:42. > :47:44.told their offices not to have meetings with us or to respond to
:47:45. > :47:48.correspondence so it's very difficult to take on board people's
:47:49. > :47:53.concerns if you can't engage with them. That said, we have made a huge
:47:54. > :47:58.effort to engage with the community that live in and around the area.
:47:59. > :48:04.What about the central point there that they will be present and there
:48:05. > :48:07.is a consultation document done by a perfectly respectable firm saying
:48:08. > :48:11.you don't have to extract all this stuff here, you can tunnel through
:48:12. > :48:16.to the end, you don't have to cause this disruption on this site? Well,
:48:17. > :48:19.we don't agree with that. We agree that the solution we have put
:48:20. > :48:24.forward is the optimum solution I think in terms of the report that's
:48:25. > :48:28.written, there are some major factual inaccuracies within it and
:48:29. > :48:31.indeed there's even a sentence in it that says that it's been written and
:48:32. > :48:36.with a limited knowledge and understanding of the project and we
:48:37. > :48:40.certainly would agree. Why do you say yours is the optimum project
:48:41. > :48:44.though? Because we feel in terms of the ten years of studies that have
:48:45. > :48:46.gone on, in terms of developing the scheme and consulting with it, about
:48:47. > :48:49.that scheme since September 201 , scheme and consulting with it, about
:48:50. > :48:52.that scheme since September 2010, we that scheme since September 201 , we
:48:53. > :48:54.feel we have come up with the best overall solution, not necessarily
:48:55. > :49:00.for Hammersmith and Fulham but for London as a whole so we can deliver
:49:01. > :49:04.the outputs required of the scheme whilst minimising disruption in
:49:05. > :49:13.London as a whole. It wasn't long ago that it seemed better to others
:49:14. > :49:17.that Barn Elm was a better site. Environmentalists kicked off and you
:49:18. > :49:22.shifted your attention away from that because the fight looked too
:49:23. > :49:26.harsh to deal with then you shifted it? We went out and shared our
:49:27. > :49:30.initial plans, we listened to what people said, we took those views
:49:31. > :49:33.into account and then we reviewed our proposals, we did a back check
:49:34. > :49:41.of our process. The key thing about one of the over-Kell ming things we
:49:42. > :49:46.got told in response was build Boro y you can on brown field rather than
:49:47. > :49:53.green field -- overwhelmed. There is a protected wharf in Hammersmith, on
:49:54. > :49:57.the video you saw earlier there were concerns over people saying about
:49:58. > :50:01.the number of lorries. We are committed to taking 90% of the
:50:02. > :50:06.material away from the sites by river, hence significantly
:50:07. > :50:11.rereducing the number of lorries on the streets. A word from you two
:50:12. > :50:16.here, do you support it and should it go ahead as planned? I think for
:50:17. > :50:21.my constituents, particularly in the East End and around Acton, broadly
:50:22. > :50:28.they do want it. It's going to deal with a lot of historical flooding
:50:29. > :50:33.problems Acton suffers from. So broadly yes but concerns about the
:50:34. > :50:37.work starting and whether or not it will be well managed. Cross party
:50:38. > :50:41.support and you think it should be done? Yes and it's important there
:50:42. > :50:45.is cross party support to give a project like this stability. But of
:50:46. > :50:52.course, I think this is something that we learnlet with the Olympics,
:50:53. > :50:56.very complex side site, where you have disproing for Nat, discomfort,
:50:57. > :51:01.upheaval being borne by a small number of people. You really need to
:51:02. > :51:06.invest in them. The ?80 going on the average bill, is that acceptable?
:51:07. > :51:11.Well, you have to pay for this kind of investment. I would like to see
:51:12. > :51:15.that figure audit and incidentally I'm very glad that Ofwat have
:51:16. > :51:20.knocked back the proposed increase for consumers. That's very good.
:51:21. > :51:25.That's to be very welcomed. You are nodding your head, you agree, can I
:51:26. > :51:30.check? Very happy with Ofwat has done. The ?80 figure is a lot but I
:51:31. > :51:33.wonder whether or not it would be possible to extend it over a longer
:51:34. > :51:38.time and reduce the impact. Thames Water have to impropose relations
:51:39. > :51:41.with customers because right now I don't think they are terribly good.
:51:42. > :51:45.For London to be a functioning city, you have to upgrade the
:51:46. > :51:51.infrastructure. What about the Ofwat decision? What is your feeling about
:51:52. > :51:55.it and does that set back the super sewer? In terms of the decision
:51:56. > :52:00.it's only recently been made and we need to review the decision and then
:52:01. > :52:02.consider our next steps. Must be a set back, you were saying this money
:52:03. > :52:16.was needed for investment? Well, the was needed for investment? Well the
:52:17. > :52:19.Thames term of ?3 was the figure mentioned. It won't affect the
:52:20. > :52:22.Government support for the project and the fact it has to be financed.
:52:23. > :52:26.We are running out of time on this one. If you can bear to hold that
:52:27. > :52:32.thought, we have to move on Thank you very much. The London living
:52:33. > :52:34.wage was put up by 25p to ?8.80 an hour, meaning a wage rise for 2 ,000
:52:35. > :52:37.hour, meaning a wage rise for 20,000 Londoners who work for firms that
:52:38. > :52:42.have signed up to a voluntary scheme. Half a million workers still
:52:43. > :52:45.earn below the living wage and Downing Street, the Mayor, Labour,
:52:46. > :52:53.business and the unions are all at odds over how to get more people
:52:54. > :52:56.paid it The living wage is a voluntary scheme for businesses who
:52:57. > :53:00.want to pay more than the national minimum wage like this London pub,
:53:01. > :53:04.one of the first firms to sign up. Politicians are trying to come up
:53:05. > :53:07.with ways to encourage firms to get on board. Labour is planning to
:53:08. > :53:11.offer tax breaks to businesses which adopt the living wage and to make it
:53:12. > :53:14.a requirement for Governments to win contracts. Boris Johnson announcing
:53:15. > :53:18.the rate for the living wage set by economists in City Hall this week.
:53:19. > :53:21.Similar to Labour, he wants paying a living wage to be a condition for
:53:22. > :53:24.firms to bid for contracts from the Greater London Authority. That could
:53:25. > :53:29.be against European law, according to Downing Street. This week, Number
:53:30. > :53:33.Ten suggested it could break EU procurement laws unless the living
:53:34. > :53:37.wage was paid to all workers in London, effectively raising the
:53:38. > :53:41.minimum wage by ?2. 50 app hour from its current ?6.31. For the time
:53:42. > :53:47.being, that doesn't look to be on the cards. Business Secretary Vince
:53:48. > :53:52.Cable says making it compulsory would mean job losses. The CBI is
:53:53. > :53:55.warning prices would have to rise to cover the cost. Labour on the London
:53:56. > :54:00.Assembly says the living wage should be made compulsory in the capital,
:54:01. > :54:04.replacing the minimum wage. Some small companies may well be
:54:05. > :54:07.struggling to pay a London living wage. You can help those and work
:54:08. > :54:12.that through. There's lots of sectors that are not struggling.
:54:13. > :54:16.There is healthy profits and the question is, should the profits be
:54:17. > :54:23.put back to some of their low-paid workers? Despite all the attention a
:54:24. > :54:27.the living wage has received, only 20,000 are affected by the scheme.
:54:28. > :54:31.Expect to hear more on how that number might be increased Why not
:54:32. > :54:39.pay this automatically, compulsory to half a million more Londoners?
:54:40. > :54:45.Think of the tax receipts, the benefit bill going down? We all want
:54:46. > :54:49.to see people properly remunerated for good work and want to see people
:54:50. > :54:52.getting wage rises. But listening to that, I wonder how many companies
:54:53. > :54:56.are talking about healthy profits. It has to be a balance about
:54:57. > :54:59.rewarding staff at work and making sure you don't reward those in work
:55:00. > :55:03.at the expense of those still looking for work. That has to be a
:55:04. > :55:06.really big consideration because otherwise small companies are going
:55:07. > :55:11.to say, if I have to pay the higher wages, I can't take anybody else on.
:55:12. > :55:18.Tessa Jowell, where are you with this? Are you with the London
:55:19. > :55:23.Assembly figure who says it should be compulsory for everybody? I think
:55:24. > :55:28.that Ed Miliband's position, which combines tax breaks with a voluntary
:55:29. > :55:34.approach, is the right one at this time. I think there's more traction
:55:35. > :55:40.in bringing employers into paying the London living wage short of
:55:41. > :55:46.regular ion. I think a huge tribute is due to London citizens who have
:55:47. > :55:55.campaigned across London. But you are quite clear - sorry to bang home
:55:56. > :56:00.the point - but to compulsory pay to it everyone is not right? It's not
:56:01. > :56:04.as simple as that. The challenge is 56240,000 Londoners do not get the
:56:05. > :56:08.London living wage -- 560,000. We have seen a stub Stantial increase
:56:09. > :56:13.in the number of living wage employers. My view would be, as with
:56:14. > :56:19.Ed Miliband, that there is more that can be achieved through a voluntary
:56:20. > :56:23.approach. A nudge approach. Let me just say this. I think London
:56:24. > :56:29.citizens whose view I very much take on this, talk about the greater
:56:30. > :56:35.strength of this being an obligation that employers willingly engage in
:56:36. > :56:39.out of respect for their employers, rather than something to be forced
:56:40. > :56:43.on them. Boris Johnson is saying he wants to get companies doing
:56:44. > :56:50.business with City Hall companies, yes? Can I just go back. It's a very
:56:51. > :56:53.important point this. Getting at least companies doing work for the
:56:54. > :56:57.public sector to pay that? Let's see what the EU law has to say about
:56:58. > :57:01.that. To go back on the Ed Miliband point. The point about his help to
:57:02. > :57:05.companies to meet the high wages only runs for one year. The
:57:06. > :57:09.businesses have made it clear that at the end of that year, they are
:57:10. > :57:13.left with staff on higher wages and can't afford to take on extra staff.
:57:14. > :57:17.I'm not sure that Ed's latest special offer stacks up. What would
:57:18. > :57:21.be wrong, because he's the Mayor now and as a Conservative-led
:57:22. > :57:25.Government, what would be wrong with ensuring all Whitehall departments
:57:26. > :57:30.contract only with employers who employ people on the living wage? I
:57:31. > :57:33.think that would have a ripple effect downwards to the small
:57:34. > :57:36.companies who provide resources to the bigger companies. It's an
:57:37. > :57:39.important signal isn't it? Very important, but I go back to my
:57:40. > :57:41.point. Everything has to be balanced against the consideration about
:57:42. > :57:44.whether you are costing businesses more money to the point they can't
:57:45. > :57:49.hire new people. We have to balance people in work with people trying
:57:50. > :57:52.to... You are never going to get the benefit or productivity. This is
:57:53. > :57:59.exactly what I mean about the traction. You can use public
:58:00. > :58:02.procurement as a lever that incentivises companies. You want to
:58:03. > :58:05.bid for a big contract with City Hall, let us see if you are paying
:58:06. > :58:14.the living wage. Let us move on It's time for the rest of the
:58:15. > :58:17.political news in 60 seconds More families with children are living in
:58:18. > :58:22.bed-and-breakfast accommodation than for almost ten years, according to
:58:23. > :58:26.Shelter. Some 62,000 children in London face being homeless this
:58:27. > :58:30.Christmas The Mayor faced an official complaint after he claimed
:58:31. > :58:33.?4,000 for flights during his recent trade mission to the Gulf. Labour
:58:34. > :58:38.complained Boris Johnson was in breach of rules restricting him to
:58:39. > :58:41.economy seats unless there are exceptional circumstances Several of
:58:42. > :58:46.many Johnson's top aids were also accused of breaching the rules Data
:58:47. > :58:50.from the Met Police revealed there were almost 2,000 reported cases of
:58:51. > :58:57.13-19-year-olds committing violence against their own parents in greater
:58:58. > :59:03.London alone, over a 12-month period from 2009-2010 Several hundred to
:59:04. > :59:05.testers, many wearing Guy Fawkes masks blocked Parliament Square as
:59:06. > :59:10.part of a protest called the million mask march. Many demonstrators
:59:11. > :59:14.staged a Bonfire Night burning of energy bills to raise their
:59:15. > :59:27.opposition to the rising cost of fuel Another death on this cycle
:59:28. > :59:32.superhighway and a commitment by the mayor where he can introduce more
:59:33. > :59:41.segregated cycling into the capital in the future. That is essential.
:59:42. > :59:45.Probably, it is a paradox. As cyclists move from a segregated
:59:46. > :59:53.cycle track to one where cars move as well, that may be one of the most
:59:54. > :00:00.dangerous areas. This has to be driven by safety. Also, more
:00:01. > :00:04.opportunity. A bit of fear that may have pushed too fast ahead -
:00:05. > :00:10.superhighways and bike schemes and so want and not checked the safety.
:00:11. > :00:14.I do not think it is possible to do that in every part of London. Tessa
:00:15. > :00:25.is right. We need more training. We is right. We need more training We
:00:26. > :00:27.see -- we need to see lorries with more equipment so they can see
:00:28. > :00:41.cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more
:00:42. > :00:44.warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal
:00:45. > :00:48.Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city
:00:49. > :00:51.been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the
:00:52. > :00:56.loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak
:00:57. > :01:07.to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is
:01:08. > :01:07.England the loser in this attempt to keep the
:01:08. > :01:16.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:17. > :01:20.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:21. > :01:26.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:27. > :01:30.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:31. > :01:34.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:35. > :01:40.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:41. > :01:45.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:46. > :01:51.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:52. > :01:59.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:00. > :02:04.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:05. > :02:09.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:10. > :02:13.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:14. > :02:15.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year?
:02:16. > :02:16.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We
:02:17. > :02:22.vote for independence next year? We want a fair deal with equality for
:02:23. > :02:27.England. If that can be maintained or England can have a fair deal
:02:28. > :02:30.within the union, that is brilliant. Let's have a federal system are all
:02:31. > :02:34.the nations are treated equally If the nations are treated equally. If
:02:35. > :02:43.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:44. > :02:47.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:48. > :02:51.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:52. > :02:57.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:58. > :03:04.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:05. > :03:08.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:09. > :03:13.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:14. > :03:16.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:17. > :03:21.British come English Parliament, the British come English Parliament the
:03:22. > :03:25.Welsh would be in a very vulnerable situation. They would not be
:03:26. > :03:29.listened to. Also a situation with Northern Ireland. There are voices
:03:30. > :03:33.in Northern Ireland talking about trying to reunite Northern Ireland.
:03:34. > :03:39.It would be a very volatile situation. Would you prefer England
:03:40. > :03:43.to become an independent nation separate from what was left of the
:03:44. > :03:50.UK, which would be Wales and Northern Ireland? Would you like to
:03:51. > :03:56.see England have a seat in the UN? I want their representation for the
:03:57. > :04:01.people of England. English jobs were sacrificed because the British
:04:02. > :04:11.government wanted Scotland to remain... You have answered that
:04:12. > :04:16.very quickly. I am -- very clearly. Would you want England, without
:04:17. > :04:21.Northern Ireland and Wales to become a separate nation state? If that is
:04:22. > :04:25.what it takes for people of England to have their representation -
:04:26. > :04:29.representation that looks at policies of the NHS, education very
:04:30. > :04:33.different from Wales and Northern Ireland - then so be it.
:04:34. > :04:42.Independence will need to be the way forward. We have a small window of
:04:43. > :04:52.opportunity that the federal system might still work. D1 indenting have
:04:53. > :05:00.a system like Scotland? -- do you want England to have a system like
:05:01. > :05:05.Scotland? What we need to do now is implement the process is to get
:05:06. > :05:09.their representation for England. I would urge your viewers to join our
:05:10. > :05:15.campaign because it is the only way to protect jobs in England, protect
:05:16. > :05:20.the NHS, protect education. Otherwise we will see the people in
:05:21. > :05:22.England continually penalised by the British government is trying
:05:23. > :05:31.desperately to save the union by giving more to Scotland and Wales.
:05:32. > :05:34.Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this business of the Clyde versus
:05:35. > :05:37.Portsmouth, it would have been pretty inconceivable of the British
:05:38. > :05:42.government that believes in the union to have allowed the Clyde to
:05:43. > :05:48.close. That would have been a disaster. It would have been. It's
:05:49. > :05:51.dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a minute, if there was Scottish
:05:52. > :05:56.independence, England were not allow its warships to be built in a
:05:57. > :06:00.foreign country. She was unable to admit there were any downsides to
:06:01. > :06:07.Scottish independence. It would be dangerous for Scotland to talk about
:06:08. > :06:10.this. You have a Lib Dem and a Conservative MP with reasonable
:06:11. > :06:15.majorities. They will find that a killer on their doorstep in the next
:06:16. > :06:21.election. There are no results in this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP
:06:22. > :06:25.and he will be lucky to have two. And the South of England, I know
:06:26. > :06:31.Portsmouth is quite an industrial area, but the South of England is
:06:32. > :06:36.overall Tory territory. He has backed the Clyde where there are no
:06:37. > :06:40.Tory votes. The Tory problem in Scotland is crucial. The trend to
:06:41. > :06:44.look out for is the rise of English nationalism within the Conservative
:06:45. > :06:48.Party. They have the word Unionist in their official title. If, in
:06:49. > :06:52.election after election, they failed to win a significant presence in
:06:53. > :06:56.Scotland, and they are failing to win a majority in Westminster
:06:57. > :07:06.because of that, it is not hard to imagine that in ten years time that
:07:07. > :07:12.would be a party which has more autonomy. One person we know who
:07:13. > :07:16.does not sign up to that. David Cameron is a romantic Unionist at
:07:17. > :07:22.heart he may say that are not any vote in Scotland but he want to keep
:07:23. > :07:26.the union together. With the Clyde, you saw a rival together of economic
:07:27. > :07:30.and political interests. It is economic or the case the greatest
:07:31. > :07:34.shipbuilding capability in the United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It
:07:35. > :07:38.is politically very helpful for this government to say to people in
:07:39. > :07:40.Scotland, look at the benefits of being in the United Kingdom and,
:07:41. > :07:44.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case
:07:45. > :07:50.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave!
:07:51. > :07:54.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:55. > :07:58.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:07:59. > :08:01.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:02. > :08:04.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:05. > :08:08.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:09. > :08:11.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:12. > :08:20.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:21. > :08:25.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:26. > :08:32.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:33. > :08:39.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:40. > :08:45.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:46. > :08:51.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine? I
:08:52. > :09:16.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:17. > :09:23.you who took cocaine, they went... Is it better to confess or the that
:09:24. > :09:29.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:30. > :09:36.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:37. > :09:41.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:42. > :09:46.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:47. > :09:52.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:53. > :10:03.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:04. > :10:08.to be regarded as a rising star, turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:09. > :10:14.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:15. > :10:17.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:18. > :10:21.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:22. > :10:27.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:28. > :10:35.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:36. > :10:40.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:41. > :10:44.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:45. > :10:49.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:50. > :10:56.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:57. > :10:59.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing
:11:00. > :11:04.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:05. > :11:09.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:10. > :11:14.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:15. > :11:19.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:20. > :11:22.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine. He
:11:23. > :11:27.years ago. It was crack cocaine He was elected having confessed to
:11:28. > :11:35.smoking crack cocaine. I draw the line around class a drugs. We will
:11:36. > :11:40.put the team on to investigate him. Help to Bible come back into the
:11:41. > :11:43.headlines again. Mr Cameron will surroundings by the people who are
:11:44. > :11:47.benefiting from buying their homes on this scheme in the same way that
:11:48. > :11:53.this is that you used to visit those who had bought their council houses.
:11:54. > :12:00.It will become hugely politicised. The Bank of England thinks that
:12:01. > :12:05.unemployment will drop late 201 , early 2015. They will put interest
:12:06. > :12:07.rates up. Those with 95% mortgages will have two find an extra ?400
:12:08. > :12:09.rates up. Those with 95% mortgages will have two find an extra ?40 a
:12:10. > :12:15.month to pay them off. I would not be surprised if David Cameron is
:12:16. > :12:31.setting up himself with this trouble. They will not want to raise
:12:32. > :12:35.interest rates. Mark Carney was very careful to give himself three get
:12:36. > :12:39.out clauses. If unemployment hits a certain level, Key has three
:12:40. > :12:44.measures which have to be fulfilled before he goes ahead and raises
:12:45. > :12:48.interest rates. As a Tory strategist, would you rather go into
:12:49. > :12:54.the election with low and implement or low interest rates? I think they
:12:55. > :13:02.would stick to low interest rates. -- low unemployment. It is not just
:13:03. > :13:08.panellists who are raising questions about it, it is senior figures
:13:09. > :13:13.people in senior economic positions. They are saying the scheme is fine
:13:14. > :13:18.at the moment. David Cameron will be surrounded by people who have taken
:13:19. > :13:22.mortgages out at low levels and it is all fine right now but if
:13:23. > :13:27.interest rates go up, it will not be cosy. That's all folks. The Daily
:13:28. > :13:30.Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two at midday. I'll be back next Sunday
:13:31. > :13:32.at the normal time of 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:33. > :13:43.Sunday Politics.