:00:39. > :00:44.The morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. First, some Sunday
:00:45. > :00:49.morning cheer, if you are an MP, that is. You are set to get an 11%
:00:50. > :00:55.pay rise. The Chancellor has gone from zero to hero for some, who
:00:56. > :01:00.credit him for turning the economy around. We will be taking a fine
:01:01. > :01:05.tooth comb to his Autumn Statement. Should this man get a pay rise?
:01:06. > :01:12.Complete denial about the central facts... And 11% pay rise for Ed
:01:13. > :01:16.Balls? He was certainly working hard to be heard last Thursday. We will
:01:17. > :01:20.be reviewing his performance. What about this man? We will be joined by
:01:21. > :01:24.England's Chief Inspector of schools. He has been writing his
:01:25. > :01:28.annual report this week. Will the government achieve and a star? In
:01:29. > :01:32.London, with the death of Nelson Mandela, we look at the influence he
:01:33. > :01:43.had on the capital, its politics and those who met him.
:01:44. > :01:49.With me, three scruffy eternal students. They would celebrate if
:01:50. > :01:53.they achieved a C+. But they are all we could afford and there will be no
:01:54. > :01:56.pay rise for them. They will be glued to an electronic device
:01:57. > :02:02.throughout the programme and if we are lucky they might stop there
:02:03. > :02:06.internet shopping and tweet something intelligent. But don't
:02:07. > :02:10.hold your breath. Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Last
:02:11. > :02:14.week, storms were battering Britain, the East Coast was hit by the worst
:02:15. > :02:17.tidal surge in more than a century, thousands of people had to be
:02:18. > :02:22.evacuated and Nelson Mandela died. The downed the news agenda was the
:02:23. > :02:28.small matter of George Osborne's Autumn Statement. His giveaways, his
:02:29. > :02:37.takeaways and his first opportunity to announce some economic cheer.
:02:38. > :02:48.It might be winter outside, but in the studios it is awesome. Autumn
:02:49. > :02:51.Statement time. -- autumn. This is a moment of TV history. Normally when
:02:52. > :02:55.the Chancellor delivers these statements, he has to say the
:02:56. > :03:00.economy is actually a lot worse than everyone predicted. This time, he
:03:01. > :03:01.can stand up and say the economy is better than everybody predicted. A
:03:02. > :03:09.lot better. Britain is currently growing faster
:03:10. > :03:17.than any other major advanced economy. Faster than France, which
:03:18. > :03:23.is contracting, faster than Germany, faster even than America. At this
:03:24. > :03:27.Autumn Statement last year, there were repeated predictions that
:03:28. > :03:31.borrowing would go up. Instead, borrowing is down, and down
:03:32. > :03:34.significantly more than forecast. But George Osborne said the good
:03:35. > :03:40.numbers still mean more tough decisions. We will not give up in
:03:41. > :03:44.giving in our country's debts. We will not spend the money from lower
:03:45. > :03:52.borrowing. We will not squander the harder and games of the British
:03:53. > :03:55.people. -- hard earned gains. In other news, further cuts to
:03:56. > :04:01.government departments. The state pension age will increase in the
:04:02. > :04:06.2040s, affecting people in their 40s now. There were some goodies, like
:04:07. > :04:10.discounted business rates for small businesses, free school meals for
:04:11. > :04:15.infants, favoured by the Lib Dems, and those marriage tax breaks below
:04:16. > :04:17.that by the Tories. But, as with all big fiscal events, it takes a while
:04:18. > :04:25.for the details to sink in. The marriage tax allowance is a
:04:26. > :04:28.long-standing commitment that he could not abandon. It does help
:04:29. > :04:33.those families were only one goes out to work. It does not go to
:04:34. > :04:38.higher rate taxpayers, I don't think. Perhaps it does, I can't
:04:39. > :04:44.remember. It makes me feel guilty, I am taking them very seriously,
:04:45. > :04:47.but... Shall I give you them? There is the Autumn Statement. Have that,
:04:48. > :04:51.a free gift from the Sunday Politics. Is there no limit to the
:04:52. > :05:01.generosity of the BBC? In the meantime, Twitter was awash
:05:02. > :05:04.with unflattering pictures of a red-faced Ed Balls giving his
:05:05. > :05:11.response. Some pictures were more than flattering than others. Is Ed
:05:12. > :05:15.Balls OK? Should we be worrying about him? He looks very stressed.
:05:16. > :05:19.There is nothing to worry about in terms of Ed balls and his analysis.
:05:20. > :05:27.He and Ed Miliband have been setting the pace in terms of the focus on
:05:28. > :05:30.the living standards crisis. It was very telling that there was not a
:05:31. > :05:35.mention of living standards last time, we got 12 mentions this time.
:05:36. > :05:41.Never mind what he was saying, by now everybody has a copy of the
:05:42. > :05:44.all-important paperwork. Time to hand over to number cruncher
:05:45. > :05:49.extraordinaire Paul Johnson from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Of
:05:50. > :05:52.course it means that things are significantly better this year and
:05:53. > :05:56.next than we thought they would be just nine months ago. That has got
:05:57. > :06:00.to be good news. But it is also worth looking at the growth figures
:06:01. > :06:08.a few years out. They have been revised down a little bit. The
:06:09. > :06:11.reason is, the view of the office of budget response ability is that the
:06:12. > :06:14.long run has not really changed very much. We are getting a bit more
:06:15. > :06:18.growth now, but their view is that it is at the cost of a little bit of
:06:19. > :06:23.the growth we will expect in the years after the next general
:06:24. > :06:27.election. As the day draws to a close, the one place there has
:06:28. > :06:35.definitely been no growth is the graphics budget of my colleague,
:06:36. > :06:39.Robert Preston. It's as good as it gets these days, I don't think the
:06:40. > :06:47.viewers will mind. It's very Sunday Politics, if I might say. That is
:06:48. > :06:52.very worrying. Was this a watershed for George
:06:53. > :06:56.Osborne? Was it a watershed for Ed Balls? We can all make the case that
:06:57. > :07:00.it is the wrong sort of recovery, a consumer led recovery. People are
:07:01. > :07:04.spending money they don't have. At the end of the day, it for George
:07:05. > :07:09.Osborne, it is growth, the first time he has been able to talk about
:07:10. > :07:13.growth. It allows him to control the baseline, the fiscal debate for the
:07:14. > :07:17.next generation. For Ed Balls, nearly not a good performance. But
:07:18. > :07:21.don't write this man off. Judging by Twitter, Iain Dale, no friend of it
:07:22. > :07:30.all is, said he did a good interview this morning on a rival TV channel.
:07:31. > :07:33.I feel the fact that the Tories hate Ed Balls so passionately is probably
:07:34. > :07:40.a good reason that they should hang onto him, in that Labour sends his
:07:41. > :07:46.effectiveness. May be the Tories hope that they hold on to him as
:07:47. > :07:49.well? A lot of people shouting at someone and mocking their speech
:07:50. > :07:52.impediment, that is politics that doesn't make me want to engage. The
:07:53. > :07:57.takeaway will be lots of people thinking that none of these people
:07:58. > :08:01.are people they like. Who is the main heckler on the Labour front
:08:02. > :08:06.bench West remarked I suppose he can't cast any stones. It would be
:08:07. > :08:09.easier to sympathise with him, if it were not that David Cameron went
:08:10. > :08:15.through a similar situation and John Bercow did not step in to stop the
:08:16. > :08:23.wall of noise. It was guaranteed a good happen to a Labour politician.
:08:24. > :08:30.It's painful to remove him because he had a Parliamentary following and
:08:31. > :08:35.he will kick up a fuss. I think he's much more pragmatic on issues like
:08:36. > :08:40.business than Ed Miliband. I'm told he wasn't keen on the energy price
:08:41. > :08:45.freeze. The problem with Ed Balls, to have the first words that you
:08:46. > :08:50.say, the Chancellor is in denial, after he is presiding over growth,
:08:51. > :08:54.it means nobody is listening to you. Who would replace him? Certainly not
:08:55. > :08:58.Alistair Darling, the side of the referendum and even afterwards. Ed
:08:59. > :09:01.Balls did get a roasting in the press and on Twitter. He seemed to
:09:02. > :09:05.disappear from public view following the Autumn Statement. But a little
:09:06. > :09:08.bird tells me he managed one interview this morning before he
:09:09. > :09:13.went off to an all-important piano recital this afternoon. Watch out,
:09:14. > :09:16.Jools Holland, he could be after your job. How bad was his
:09:17. > :09:22.performance on Thursday? Here is the Shadow Chancellor in action. The
:09:23. > :09:28.Chancellor is incomplete denial about the central facts that are
:09:29. > :09:38.defining this government in office. He used to say he would balance the
:09:39. > :09:44.books in 2015. Now he wants us to congratulate him for saying he will
:09:45. > :09:51.do it in 2019, Mr Speaker. With this government, it is clearly not just
:09:52. > :09:58.the badgers that move the goalposts. No mention of the universal credit
:09:59. > :10:07.in the statement. IDS, in deep shambles, Mr Speaker. Chris Leslie
:10:08. > :10:14.is the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. He is Ed Balls's deputy,
:10:15. > :10:20.in other words. Why do more and more of your Labour colleagues think that
:10:21. > :10:23.your boss is below the water line? I'm not sure I accept the premise of
:10:24. > :10:29.your suggestion. I don't think my colleagues believe that George
:10:30. > :10:32.Osborne has a superior argument. I think Ed Balls will certainly trying
:10:33. > :10:36.his best, loud and clear, to make the case there is a cost of living
:10:37. > :10:39.crisis in this country and the Chancellor doesn't understand this.
:10:40. > :10:44.That was essentially the heat of the debate on the Autumn Statement day.
:10:45. > :10:47.One leading Labour MPs said to me that Ed Balls is always looking
:10:48. > :10:53.back, fixated with the rear-view mirror, that was the exact quote. A
:10:54. > :10:57.Labour MP told Sky News, Labour has a strong argument to make,
:10:58. > :11:06.unfortunately it was not made well in the chamber today. Quoting the
:11:07. > :11:11.Daily Mail, this is two poor performances. A quote that I can't
:11:12. > :11:16.use because it uses too many four letter words. Baroness Armstrong,
:11:17. > :11:20.speaking at Progress, a former Labour Cabinet minister, we are not
:11:21. > :11:24.sufficiently concerned about public spending, how we would pay for what
:11:25. > :11:28.we are talking about. Quite a battering? There were two sets of
:11:29. > :11:34.quotes you were giving. The couple were about the strategy for tackling
:11:35. > :11:39.public expenditure. I think it's fair that we talk about that. The
:11:40. > :11:50.rest were pretty unattributed, nameless sources. You have never
:11:51. > :11:55.given and of the record briefing? We have conversations off camera, but I
:11:56. > :12:00.don't think you have a wealth of evidence to say that somehow Ed
:12:01. > :12:04.Balls's arguments were wrong. He was making the point that, ultimately,
:12:05. > :12:09.it is a government that does not have its finger on the pulse about
:12:10. > :12:12.what most of your viewers are concerned about, that wages are
:12:13. > :12:16.being squeezed and prices are getting higher and higher. You have
:12:17. > :12:23.had time to study the Autumn Statement. What part of it does
:12:24. > :12:29.Labour disagree with? It is a very big question. I think the overall
:12:30. > :12:32.strategy the Autumn Statement is setting out does not deal with the
:12:33. > :12:37.fundamental problems in the economy. What measures do you disagree with?
:12:38. > :12:40.A lot of it is the absence of measures we would have put in if we
:12:41. > :12:44.were doing the Autumn Statement. If you are going to deal with the cost
:12:45. > :12:47.of living crisis, you have got to get productivity levels up in our
:12:48. > :12:51.society. One of the best ways of doing that is on infrastructure. We
:12:52. > :12:56.believe in bringing forward 's investment and housing, getting some
:12:57. > :13:04.of the fundamentals right in our economy. By planting, the business
:13:05. > :13:13.lending we have to do. We have seen a lamentable failing. There are big
:13:14. > :13:16.structural reforms that we need. Ultimately, the public are concerned
:13:17. > :13:21.about the cost of living crisis. That has got to be childcare help, a
:13:22. > :13:25.10p starting rate of tax. Above all, and energy price freeze, which
:13:26. > :13:30.still this government are refusing to do. On Friday, you told me you
:13:31. > :13:36.supported the principle of a welfare cap. But you change bling claim the
:13:37. > :13:40.Chancellor's cap included pensions. You have now seen the figures, and
:13:41. > :13:45.it does not include pensions, correct? We do want a welfare cap.
:13:46. > :13:51.The government have said they are going to put more detail on this in
:13:52. > :13:55.the March budget. But it does not include pensions? We think they have
:13:56. > :14:01.a short term approach to the welfare cap. They put in some pension
:14:02. > :14:04.benefits. The state pension is not in the short-term plan because, as
:14:05. > :14:10.we believe, a triple lock is a good idea. In the longer term, if you are
:14:11. > :14:13.talking about structural welfare issues, you do have to think about
:14:14. > :14:15.pensions because they have to be sustainable if we are living
:14:16. > :14:20.longer. I think that is about the careful management. Let me show you
:14:21. > :14:27.what Ed Balls said on this programme at the start of the summer. As for
:14:28. > :14:30.pensioners, I think this is a real question. George Osborne is going to
:14:31. > :14:34.announce his cap in two weeks time. I don't know if he will exclude
:14:35. > :14:38.pension spending or including. Our plan is to include it. Pension
:14:39. > :14:44.spending would be included in the welfare cap? That is our plan,
:14:45. > :14:47.exactly what I just said. Over the long-term, if you have a serious
:14:48. > :14:53.welfare cap structural welfare issues, over 20, 30, 40 year
:14:54. > :14:57.period, you can't say that we will not work and pensions as part of
:14:58. > :15:05.that. Pensions would be part of the Labour cap? In the longer term. What
:15:06. > :15:11.is the longer term? If you win 2015? We want to stick with the triple
:15:12. > :15:14.lock on the pension, that is the Government approach to their
:15:15. > :15:18.short-term welfare cap. In the longer term, for example, on the
:15:19. > :15:25.winter fuel allowance, we should not necessarily be... There are lots of
:15:26. > :15:28.benefits... I understand that, I am talking about the basic state
:15:29. > :15:35.pension, is that part of your welfare cap or not? In a 20, 30, 40
:15:36. > :15:45.year frame... Even you will not be around in government, then. You are
:15:46. > :15:48.writing me off already. You have to focus on welfare changes, pensions
:15:49. > :15:52.have to be affordable as part of that. It's dangerous to say, well,
:15:53. > :15:55.if you are going to have a serious welfare cap, we should not look at
:15:56. > :16:03.pensions cost. It would be irresponsible. Will pensions be part
:16:04. > :16:07.of the cap from 2015 until 2020 if Labour is in power? In our long-term
:16:08. > :16:15.cap we have to make sure... I'm talking about 2015-16. We haven't
:16:16. > :16:21.seen the proposition the Government has put before us.
:16:22. > :16:32.You claim people of ?1600 worse off under the coalition. That is true
:16:33. > :16:36.when you compare to pay and prices. Can you confirm that calculation
:16:37. > :16:41.does not include the ?700 tax cut from raising the income tax
:16:42. > :16:46.threshold, huge savings on mortgages because of low interest or the
:16:47. > :16:50.freezing of council tax? It doesn't include the tax and benefit
:16:51. > :16:56.changes. If you do want to look at those, last year, the ISS said they
:16:57. > :17:04.could be making people worse off. It might not include those factors. The
:17:05. > :17:10.VAT increase, tax credit cuts, child benefit cuts, they all add up. My
:17:11. > :17:16.understanding is that the ISS figures have said people are ?891
:17:17. > :17:23.worse off if you look at the tax and benefit changes since 2010. You have
:17:24. > :17:27.to look at wages and prices. The ISS confirmed our approach was broadly
:17:28. > :17:33.the right way of assessing what is happening. The Chancellor was
:17:34. > :17:38.saying, real household disposable incomes are rising. He is completely
:17:39. > :17:43.out of touch. Can you sum up the macro economic policy for Labour?
:17:44. > :17:48.Invest in the future, make sure we have the right approach for the
:17:49. > :17:51.long-term politicking. Tackle the cost of living crisis people are
:17:52. > :17:54.facing. Now, let's talk to the Financial
:17:55. > :18:02.Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid Javid.
:18:03. > :18:08.Discovery, underpinned by rising house prices, increasing personal
:18:09. > :18:13.debt, do you accept that is unsustainable?
:18:14. > :18:19.I accept the OBE are also said the reason why this country is facing
:18:20. > :18:25.more these challenges -- OBR. That is because we went through a
:18:26. > :18:33.Labour recession, the worst we have seen in 100 years. But do you accept
:18:34. > :18:39.that a recovery underpinned by these things I have just read out isn't
:18:40. > :18:44.sustainable? We set out a long-term plan for recovery, and again this
:18:45. > :18:49.week. We have shown with the tough decisions we have made already, the
:18:50. > :18:54.country can enjoy a recovery. There are still a lot of difficult
:18:55. > :19:05.decisions. The biggest risk are Labour's plans. The March
:19:06. > :19:09.projections work at for those -- for both business investment and
:19:10. > :19:16.exports. Suddenly it is expected to rise 5% next year, a 10% turnaround
:19:17. > :19:20.in investment. How is it credible? I have been in business before
:19:21. > :19:24.politics. Any business person listening will know, when you have
:19:25. > :19:30.gone through a recession, the deepest in 100 years, it will hit
:19:31. > :19:34.investment, profits, you can't make plans again until you have
:19:35. > :19:42.confidence in the economy. That is what this country is seeing now
:19:43. > :19:49.under this government. This is an assumption made independently. The
:19:50. > :19:55.fall in business investment is because of the recession. The
:19:56. > :20:01.forecast increases, 5% next year, and so on, it is based on the
:20:02. > :20:07.independent forecast. Based on fact. If you look at the investment plans
:20:08. > :20:15.of companies, this week, the Chancellor went to JCB, Jaguar Land
:20:16. > :20:18.Rover has plans to create more jobs, these investment plans are
:20:19. > :20:22.coming through now because of the confidence generated by this
:20:23. > :20:28.government, such as the cut in corporation tax which Labour would
:20:29. > :20:33.increase. Are the export forecasts more credible? The 15 years, our
:20:34. > :20:41.share of world trade decline. Suddenly starting next year, it
:20:42. > :20:46.stops falling. That's not credible. I worked in finance the 20 years. I
:20:47. > :20:54.have yet to find any forecast which is fully right. Under Labour, we
:20:55. > :21:00.would have forecasts made by Gordon Brown who would announce he would
:21:01. > :21:05.hit all his targets. Now we have an independent system.
:21:06. > :21:11.Do you accept, if exports or business investment do not pick up,
:21:12. > :21:15.then a purely consumer led recovery is not sustainable? We need more
:21:16. > :21:23.than a consumer led recovery. We need consumer investment to go up.
:21:24. > :21:26.On Xbox, it is noticeable that experts are primarily down because
:21:27. > :21:31.the markets we trade with, the eurozone markets, are depressed.
:21:32. > :21:37.Many have just come out of recession. Or they are still in
:21:38. > :21:47.recession. If you look at exports to non-EU countries, they are up 30%.
:21:48. > :21:53.120% to China. 100% to Russia. Will you keep the triple lock for
:21:54. > :21:59.the state pension beyond 2015? Yes, long term. That's why it is not part
:22:00. > :22:03.of our welfare cap. Chris Leslie cannot answer that question. It is
:22:04. > :22:11.straightforward. House prices are now rising ten
:22:12. > :22:19.times faster than average earnings. That's not good. House prices are
:22:20. > :22:23.rising, partly reflecting recovery. Ten times faster than average
:22:24. > :22:28.earnings, how can people afford to buy homes if it carries on? What you
:22:29. > :22:32.would hope, this is the evidence, if you look at the plans of the month
:22:33. > :22:39.companies, they are planning new homes which will mean that, as this
:22:40. > :22:43.demand spurs that investment, more homes will come about. We need to
:22:44. > :23:27.give people the means to buy those homes. We have introduced the help
:23:28. > :23:38.to buy scheme. I accept the OBR says it will start rising again but as
:23:39. > :23:51.household debt rises again Petr Cech reduces, -- as household debt
:23:52. > :23:56.reduces, we need to make sure there are checks in place. Wages have not
:23:57. > :24:05.been rising in real terms for quite some time. Over the next five years,
:24:06. > :24:17.even as the economy grows, by about 15% according the OBR to the OBR --
:24:18. > :24:22.but people will not benefit. These hard-working families will not share
:24:23. > :24:28.in the recovery. What is the best way to help those families? The
:24:29. > :24:33.government doesn't set wages. What we can do is influence the overall
:24:34. > :24:43.economy. We don't have a magic lever. Wages have been stagnating
:24:44. > :24:49.for five years. When will people get a proper salary? The best way for
:24:50. > :24:53.wage growth is a growing economy, more jobs. We have more people
:24:54. > :25:00.employed in Britain today than at any time in our history. The biggest
:25:01. > :25:05.risk to recovery is if we let Labour into the Treasury with more spending
:25:06. > :25:09.and more debt. Which got us into this trouble. By whatever measure
:25:10. > :25:16.you care to choose, would people be better off come the 20 15th election
:25:17. > :25:23.than they were in 2010? Yes, they will be. Look at jobs. Already more
:25:24. > :25:27.people employed than at any other time in history. Will they be better
:25:28. > :25:32.off? The best way for anyone to raise their living standards is
:25:33. > :25:40.access to a growing job market. But will they be better off? I believe
:25:41. > :25:44.people will be. Compared to 2010. Yes. In terms of take-home pay. This
:25:45. > :25:51.is a credible measure. Now, what do you think the Education
:25:52. > :25:55.Secretary, Michael Gove, was like at school? Hard-working? Hand always
:25:56. > :25:58.up? Top of the class? Well, if he wasn't passionate about education
:25:59. > :26:05.then, he is now. In fact, since he took office, it seems he hasn't
:26:06. > :26:08.stopped working very hard indeed. When the coalition came to power,
:26:09. > :26:11.Michael Gove evoked Mao, saying they were on a long march to reform
:26:12. > :26:18.education. Just like Mao, they faced a baby boom, so pledged ?5 billion
:26:19. > :26:22.for new school places. They extended Labour's academy programme. There's
:26:23. > :26:25.now about 3,000 in England. But then, they marched even further,
:26:26. > :26:32.creating free schools run by parents, funded by taxpayers. 174
:26:33. > :26:35.have opened so far. The schools admission code was changed, to give
:26:36. > :26:38.parents more choice. And a pupil premium was introduced,
:26:39. > :26:41.currently, an extra ?900 funding for each disadvantaged child.
:26:42. > :26:45.An overhaul of the national curriculum provoked criticism.
:26:46. > :26:53.Chairman Gove mocked detractors as "bad academia". But exam reforms
:26:54. > :26:56.didn't quite go to plan. Although GCSEs got harder, plans to replace
:26:57. > :27:00.A-levels had to be abandoned. Ultimately, the true test of these
:27:01. > :27:05.reforms will be what happens in the classroom. The person in charge of
:27:06. > :27:08.making sure those classrooms are up to scratch in England is the Chief
:27:09. > :27:13.Inspector Of Schools, head of Ofsted, Michael Wilshaw, who joins
:27:14. > :27:18.me now. Over the past 15 years, we have
:27:19. > :27:22.doubled spending on schools even allowing for inflation. By
:27:23. > :27:28.international standards, we are stagnating, why? I said last year
:27:29. > :27:38.that mediocrity had settled into the system. Too many children were
:27:39. > :27:44.coasting in schools, which is why we changed the grading structure, we
:27:45. > :27:48.removed that awful word, satisfactory. Saying that good is
:27:49. > :27:52.now the only acceptable standard and schools had a limited time in which
:27:53. > :27:58.to get to that. We are seeing gradually, it is difficult to say
:27:59. > :28:03.this in the week we have had the OECD report. Things have gradually
:28:04. > :28:08.improved. I will come onto that in a minute. Explain this. International
:28:09. > :28:14.comparisons show us flat-lining or even falling in some subjects,
:28:15. > :28:18.including science. For 20 years, our domestic exam results just got
:28:19. > :28:22.better and better. Was this a piece of fiction fed to us by the
:28:23. > :28:29.educational establishment, was there a cover-up? There is no question
:28:30. > :28:35.there has grade inflation. I speak as an ex-headteacher who saw that in
:28:36. > :28:38.examinations. Perceptual state is actually doing something about that.
:28:39. > :28:49.Most good heads will say that is about time. We have to be credible.
:28:50. > :28:52.Do politicians and educationalists conspire in this grade inflation? It
:28:53. > :28:57.might suit politicians to say things are going up every year. As a head,
:28:58. > :29:06.I knew a lot of the exams youngsters were sitting were not up to scratch.
:29:07. > :29:12.The latest OECD study places us 36th for maths, 23rd reading, slipping
:29:13. > :29:17.down to 21st in science. Yet, Ofsted, your organisation,
:29:18. > :29:22.designates 80% of schools as good or outstanding. That's another fiction.
:29:23. > :29:25.This year, we have. If we see this level of progress, it has been a
:29:26. > :29:32.remarkable progress over the last years since we changed our grading
:29:33. > :29:37.structure, then... In a year, absolutely. We have better teachers
:29:38. > :29:41.coming into our school system. Better leaders. Better schools. The
:29:42. > :29:44.big challenge for our country is making sure that progress is
:29:45. > :29:51.maintained which will eventually translate into better outcomes.
:29:52. > :29:57.These figures are pretty much up-to-date. Are you saying within a
:29:58. > :30:02.year 80% of the schools are good enough? All of the schools we
:30:03. > :30:07.upgraded have had better grades in GCSE and grade 2. We have to make
:30:08. > :30:11.sure that is maintained. The Government has based its reforms on
:30:12. > :30:15.similar reforms in Sweden. In opposition they were endlessly going
:30:16. > :30:20.to Stockholm to find out how it was done. Swedish schools are doing even
:30:21. > :30:26.worse than ours in the tables. Why are we copying failure? The
:30:27. > :30:30.secretary of state believes, and I actually believe, as somebody who
:30:31. > :30:35.has come from an academy model, that if you hand power and resources, you
:30:36. > :30:38.hand autonomy to the people on the ground, to the people in the
:30:39. > :30:45.classroom, in the corridors, in the playgrounds, things work. If you
:30:46. > :30:49.allow the great monoliths that used to have responsibility for education
:30:50. > :30:53.in the past to take control again, you will see a reverse in standards.
:30:54. > :30:56.You have got to actually empower those people that make the
:30:57. > :31:02.difference. That is why autonomy and freedom is important. We spent a lot
:31:03. > :31:04.of money moving what were local authority schools to become
:31:05. > :31:08.academies and new free school czar being set up as well. When the
:31:09. > :31:12.academies are pretty much the same level of autonomy, the free school
:31:13. > :31:17.is maybe a little bit more, the evidence we have had so far is that
:31:18. > :31:20.they don't really perform any better than local authority schools?
:31:21. > :31:26.Indeed, Encore GCSE subjects, they might even be doing worse? These are
:31:27. > :31:30.early days. We will say more about this on weapons they when we produce
:31:31. > :31:34.the annual report. The sponsored academies that took over the worst
:31:35. > :31:37.schools in the country, in the most difficult circumstances, in the most
:31:38. > :31:44.disadvantaged communities, are doing much better now. What about GCSE?
:31:45. > :31:51.They are doing GCSE equivalents, the lass academic subjects question my
:31:52. > :31:54.cull OK, but they are doing better than previous schools. If you look
:31:55. > :32:07.at the top performing nations in the world, they focus on the quality of
:32:08. > :32:10.teaching. The best graduates coming to education. They professionally
:32:11. > :32:14.develop them. They make sure they spot the brightest talents and get
:32:15. > :32:18.them into positions as soon as possible. We have got to do the same
:32:19. > :32:25.if we are going to catch up with those jurisdictions. This isn't just
:32:26. > :32:28.a British problem. It seems to be a European problem. The East Asian
:32:29. > :32:31.countries now dominate the top of the tables. What's the most
:32:32. > :32:36.important lesson we should learn from East Asia? Attitudes to work.
:32:37. > :32:43.We need to make sure that we invest in good teachers, good leaders. We
:32:44. > :32:47.have to make sure that students have the right attitudes to work. It's no
:32:48. > :32:52.good getting good people into the classroom and then seeing them part
:32:53. > :32:58.of teaching by bad behaviour, disaffected youngsters and poor
:32:59. > :33:02.leadership. We see young teachers doing well for a time and then being
:33:03. > :33:07.put off teaching and leaving from that sort of culture in our schools.
:33:08. > :33:11.Are you a cheerleader for government education policy rather than
:33:12. > :33:15.independent inspectors? I am independent, Ofsted is independent.
:33:16. > :33:20.I believe we are saying the right things on standards. The Association
:33:21. > :33:24.of teachers and lecturers say you are an arm of government. The NUT
:33:25. > :33:28.has called for your resignation. Another wants to abolish or
:33:29. > :33:34.Inspectorate. Have you become a pariah amongst teaching unions? If
:33:35. > :33:40.we are challenging schools to become better, that is our job, we will
:33:41. > :33:43.carry on doing that. I am not going to preside over the status quo. We
:33:44. > :33:47.will challenge the system to do better, we will challenge schools
:33:48. > :33:51.and colleges to do better. We will also challenge government when we
:33:52. > :33:53.think they are going wrong. Many people in the education
:33:54. > :33:57.establishment think your primary purpose is to do the Government's
:33:58. > :34:04.bidding by shepherding schools into becoming academies. Not true at all.
:34:05. > :34:09.You are a big supporter of academies? Yes, I believe the people
:34:10. > :34:12.that do the business in schools are the people that are free to do what
:34:13. > :34:16.is necessary to raise standards. I am a big supporter of autonomy in
:34:17. > :34:26.the school system. But where we see academies Vale, where we see free
:34:27. > :34:30.schools fail, we will say so. The study does not find much evidence
:34:31. > :34:36.that competition and choice raise standards, but it does go with you
:34:37. > :34:40.and say that strong school leadership, coupled with autonomy,
:34:41. > :34:44.can make a difference. Can somebody with no experience in education be
:34:45. > :34:48.in charge of a school? A lot of hot air has been expounded on the issue
:34:49. > :34:51.of whether teachers should be qualified or not. If qualified
:34:52. > :35:00.teacher status was the gold standard, why is it that one in
:35:01. > :35:03.three teachers, one in three lessons that will observe are not good
:35:04. > :35:07.enough. Taught by qualified teachers. I've not yet met a
:35:08. > :35:11.headteacher that has not appointed by qualified staff when they cannot
:35:12. > :35:15.get qualified teachers. Their job is to make sure they get accredited as
:35:16. > :35:18.soon as possible and come up to scratch in the classroom. Do you
:35:19. > :35:25.support the use of unqualified teachers? I do. I have done it. If I
:35:26. > :35:27.could not get a maths, physics or modern languages teacher and I
:35:28. > :35:30.thought somebody straight from university, without qualified
:35:31. > :35:34.teachers start this, that they could communicate well with youngsters, I
:35:35. > :35:39.would get that person into the classroom and get them accredited if
:35:40. > :35:42.they delivered the goods. If we are going to allow schools to have more
:35:43. > :35:48.autonomy and not be accountable to local authorities, free schools
:35:49. > :35:52.academies, don't you have to do... New entrants will be coming into the
:35:53. > :36:00.market, the educational marketplace. Do you not have to act more quickly
:36:01. > :36:03.when it is clear, and there has been examined recently, where it is
:36:04. > :36:08.clearly going badly wrong and children's education at risk?
:36:09. > :36:10.Absolutely. I made a point to the secretary of state and it is
:36:11. > :36:14.something I will talk more about over the coming year. We need to be
:36:15. > :36:18.in school is much more often. If a school fails at the moment, or
:36:19. > :36:24.underperforms, goes into this new category, Her Majesty 's inspectors
:36:25. > :36:28.stay with that institution until it improves. Sometimes we don't see a
:36:29. > :36:32.school for five or seven years. That is wrong. My argument is that Ofsted
:36:33. > :36:35.should pay a much greater part in monitoring the performance of
:36:36. > :36:43.schools between those inspections. Are you enjoying it? It is a tough
:36:44. > :36:49.job. Are you enjoying it? This is a tough job, but I enjoy it.
:36:50. > :36:52.Sometimes. You are watching Sunday Politics.
:36:53. > :36:56.Coming up in just over 20 minutes, Diane Abbott will be joining us. And
:36:57. > :36:58.we will have more from our political panel. Until then, the Sunday
:36:59. > :37:19.Politics across the UK. Hello, welcome to the London part of
:37:20. > :37:24.the show. I am joined by my guest Sadiq Khan, Labour MP for treating,
:37:25. > :37:30.and Nick De Bois, Conservative MP for Enfield North. Also joining us
:37:31. > :37:33.is Trevor Phillips, former chair of the Equalities And Human Rights
:37:34. > :37:38.Commission. Father of a nation, unifier of people, freedom fighter.
:37:39. > :37:43.Nelson Mandela's extraordinary life saw him labelled many things. Now
:37:44. > :37:47.his long walk is over. As the Mayor put it, a great heart is stilled. In
:37:48. > :37:52.a moment we will be asking what he meant to London and those that met
:37:53. > :37:57.him. First, a look at the Capitol. The reaction to his death.
:37:58. > :38:04.Nelson Mandela was no stranger to London. Before the trial that
:38:05. > :38:08.sentenced to 27 years in prison, he toured the capital to drum up
:38:09. > :38:14.support from sympathetic British leaders. Labour politician Denis
:38:15. > :38:18.Healey was his Parliamentary guide. I was asked by a friend of his,
:38:19. > :38:25.called Mary Benson, a nurse during the war, to introduce him to Hugh
:38:26. > :38:35.Gates will. He wanted to meet him, then the leader of the Labour Party.
:38:36. > :38:41.One of his most memorable visits to the capital after his release in
:38:42. > :38:50.1996 is included a trip to Brixton. That is now part of London four --
:38:51. > :38:56.folklore. It not only turned heads, but, for those that were there,
:38:57. > :39:00.changed minds. It enabled us to start thinking differently. You
:39:01. > :39:03.can't fight your way out of problems every day. You have to think of
:39:04. > :39:10.another strategy. He came and United Britain. Nobody else had achieved
:39:11. > :39:15.that. We are seeing how somebody who has been at the heart of overcoming
:39:16. > :39:21.the biggest atrocities that the human condition can endure, that
:39:22. > :39:24.comes here as an example of the obstacles and difficulties people
:39:25. > :39:31.can overcome, to inspire the communities that are here. There was
:39:32. > :39:36.a rainbow of people, of all different backgrounds, all different
:39:37. > :39:44.generations. They were awaiting this guy's arrival. Just being massively
:39:45. > :39:47.inspired by him. Today I am on a little pilgrimage. I went to
:39:48. > :39:54.Trafalgar Square, I walked there, said a blessing. I walked to the
:39:55. > :40:02.statutory say a blessing. Why? Because he was important. Also for
:40:03. > :40:08.the emerging voice of minorities, championed by Bernie Grant. For the
:40:09. > :40:16.young people, alienate it black and Asian people in Haringey, they had
:40:17. > :40:19.watched the protest and resistance of the masses in South Africa and
:40:20. > :40:26.they have been hugely inspired by what they saw. The current London
:40:27. > :40:35.mayor paid his own tribute to the transformational power of the man
:40:36. > :40:39.his people called Madiba. I am the generation that grew up in awe and
:40:40. > :40:42.admiration of Nelson Mandela. It is unquestionably true that in my
:40:43. > :40:46.party, over the last 50 years or so, there were people that have a
:40:47. > :40:53.different line. I think they would now say they were wrong and that is
:40:54. > :40:58.plain. His enduring legacy, a challenge to us all to uphold the
:40:59. > :41:05.values of equality he espoused. A wonderful man. I think you just have
:41:06. > :41:10.this enormous ability to get on with white people as well as black, which
:41:11. > :41:16.made it possible for him to get freedom. Nelson Mandela's presence
:41:17. > :41:21.will remain in the capital, with our memories and his statues. Above all,
:41:22. > :41:24.the one that stands facing Parliament, where he once stood and
:41:25. > :41:29.dreamt of an apartheid free South Africa. Before embarking on his own
:41:30. > :41:35.and his people's long march to freedom.
:41:36. > :41:40.Trevor Phillips, you met Nelson Mandela. Your reflections on the
:41:41. > :41:45.man? I was lucky enough to be asked to be his escort in a previous
:41:46. > :41:50.visit, in 1993, before he had become president. In fact, we did take him
:41:51. > :41:58.to Brixton. There are two things that struck me about him. What has
:41:59. > :42:03.not been said about him so far is what a political genius he was.
:42:04. > :42:08.Astute and smart. First of all, in Brixton, he did a very clever little
:42:09. > :42:13.thing. When he spoke to the crowd, he kept saying, it is great to be
:42:14. > :42:21.here in Bristol. He knew exactly where he was, he was teasing. He was
:42:22. > :42:25.quite good at jokes? Witty and very smart. The other thing that has been
:42:26. > :42:32.said about him is that he has been presented a bit like a saintly teddy
:42:33. > :42:37.bear. But, actually, the thing about this guy is he was steely and
:42:38. > :42:41.disciplined beyond belief. That is how you get through 27 years. More
:42:42. > :42:49.than that, the decision to reach out to white South Africa was not just
:42:50. > :42:53.about being a good guy. He made a clear political decision that this
:42:54. > :42:59.was the path to economic prosperity and stability. That was what he had
:43:00. > :43:05.to do. It wasn't just about being a nice character. It was politics,
:43:06. > :43:09.hard economics and politics. That is what many people remember, that
:43:10. > :43:13.there was not the blood-letting once he was released and before he became
:43:14. > :43:20.president, certainly not for white South Africans. In London, Sadiq
:43:21. > :43:24.Khan, these were your formative years, what impact did he have on
:43:25. > :43:31.the black and ethnic communities? Trevor picked up on this. For those
:43:32. > :43:36.of us in London of a certain age, campaigning against apartheid,
:43:37. > :43:40.outside Chatham house, we were angry. We wanted revenge, reprise
:43:41. > :43:44.all is. Here you have the guy that has been in prison for 27 years. He
:43:45. > :43:49.could have child some of our anger. Saying, hold on a second, the future
:43:50. > :43:53.of South Africa, the future of blacks and Africans is prosperity,
:43:54. > :43:56.getting on with white neighbours, not deporting them as people wanted
:43:57. > :44:00.to do. We took our lead from him once he had been released. He
:44:01. > :44:07.managed to channel the anger into a constructive path for South Africa.
:44:08. > :44:11.South Africa is now the leading country, doing remarkably well in
:44:12. > :44:15.the context of... Nick made the point outside the studio, but South
:44:16. > :44:19.Africa had the first black president before the USA, before the UK,
:44:20. > :44:27.before many other countries we talk about. In the context of apartheid,
:44:28. > :44:33.that is remarkable. The con text has not been made in the way that some
:44:34. > :44:37.people would like. You heard Boris Johnson saying that maybe someone
:44:38. > :44:41.his party were wrong, do you agree with that that sometimes some of the
:44:42. > :44:44.things that Margaret Thatcher and senior Conservative said about the
:44:45. > :44:49.ANC being a terrorist organisation, were they wrong? I think some
:44:50. > :44:52.conservatives would look back and say they were wrong on that
:44:53. > :44:57.particular issue. Some of them may have reflected that point of view. I
:44:58. > :45:00.think it's a little early to start getting into the debate about
:45:01. > :45:04.Britain's political position at the time. I think that would miss the
:45:05. > :45:11.point about Nelson Mandela and his key message. Which, of course, is
:45:12. > :45:14.that I am not looking for recrimination, I am looking for
:45:15. > :45:18.reconciliation and building. There is a debate, and I'm sure it will be
:45:19. > :45:21.had in time, about the political role Britain played and what
:45:22. > :45:24.influence that may or may not have had on Nelson Mandela's release.
:45:25. > :45:28.There is no doubt that Margaret Thatcher, this link to a former
:45:29. > :45:34.ambassador, the High Commissioner there, he argues that she played a
:45:35. > :45:40.determined role, both anti-depart late -- anti-apartheid and demanding
:45:41. > :45:43.his release. It didn't feel that way in the 80s and 90s. But if Nelson
:45:44. > :45:48.Mandela can forget Margaret Thatcher, who am I? The way it felt
:45:49. > :45:52.was you were on one side of the debate and the campaign against
:45:53. > :45:55.apartheid, against the South African regime, wanting Nelson Mandela
:45:56. > :46:00.released, and then you have those on the other side. I remember reading
:46:01. > :46:05.the Daily Mail and The Sun, listening to consider politicians,
:46:06. > :46:13.if Mandela can forgive them, who am I? Is it too early to have an
:46:14. > :46:17.objective view of him, he has been eulogised as a saint? It probably
:46:18. > :46:22.is, but it will not stop people doing it. I think he would say, that
:46:23. > :46:25.is the past, let the past be the past. If you had to say one thing
:46:26. > :46:33.about him, he is a poet, not an engineer. States, economics, sorting
:46:34. > :46:37.out housing probe lands -- problems, that is for other people to do.
:46:38. > :46:40.Revolutions do not mean the replacement of one dominant group by
:46:41. > :46:43.another dominant group. The real contribution he made to the 20th
:46:44. > :46:47.century was to say you can have a revolution, but at the other side of
:46:48. > :47:01.that revolution, everybody can be part of it.
:47:02. > :47:09.Mandela said he thought London was the second headquarters of the
:47:10. > :47:16.anti-apartheid movement. We are proud of the role we played in that
:47:17. > :47:19.movement. We are terribly sad at his death but incredibly proud.
:47:20. > :47:24.This year, there has been a series of stories coming out of the borough
:47:25. > :47:27.of Greenwich. The reports relate to bullying and, in particular, the
:47:28. > :47:29.conduct of the Labour leader of the council Chris Roberts, with one
:47:30. > :47:42.local paper calling for his resignation. Andrew Cryan reports.
:47:43. > :47:47.More reaction from Chris Roberts. This is the leader of Greenwich
:47:48. > :47:52.Council, Councillor Chris Roberts. Speaking in October 2010. Since last
:47:53. > :47:58.year, he and his administration had been publicly accused of bullying.
:47:59. > :48:02.In March and October, councillors announced they were stepping down,
:48:03. > :48:07.citing bullying. At the time, the Labour chief whip said he was not
:48:08. > :48:14.aware of any descriptions of a bullying culture. In October, this
:48:15. > :48:15.voice mail message was left by Chris Roberts on another councillor's
:48:16. > :48:28.phone. Councillor Roberts apologised the
:48:29. > :48:35.same date and has since written apologising. It's not be any time he
:48:36. > :48:40.has said sorry for this type of being. We obtained a copy of this
:48:41. > :48:41.letter written by him to an 86-year-old member of the local
:48:42. > :49:01.Labour Party in 2012. Back in October, we asked the
:49:02. > :49:05.council for details of any complaints made against Chris
:49:06. > :49:09.Roberts in the last decade. They came back with only two, the first
:49:10. > :49:14.was the voice mail message you heard earlier. The second, a complaint
:49:15. > :49:16.from a counsellor which was never upheld. Sunday politics has
:49:17. > :49:23.discovered there have been other complaints. This is Barbara Clark
:49:24. > :49:27.who works as a cleaner in Greenwich Council during which time she
:49:28. > :49:35.entered a complaint against Chris Roberts. She died last year. Her son
:49:36. > :49:40.has never spoken publicly before. Malm accidentally opened the door on
:49:41. > :49:48.him not realising someone was there. He had a tantrum and shouted at her.
:49:49. > :49:58.Mum said she didn't realise anyone was there. She wanted to clean the
:49:59. > :50:02.office. Would you mind if she collected the keys and would come
:50:03. > :50:09.back when he was ready. He went berserk, had a tantrum, and through
:50:10. > :50:14.the bunch of keys and my mum. The keys almost went through her face.
:50:15. > :50:23.She put her hand up to protect herself. The keys smashed on her
:50:24. > :50:27.wrist. What happened to her wrist? It was sprained and bruised. A
:50:28. > :50:31.complaint was entered with the council by her. They tell us it was
:50:32. > :50:37.not consistent with her son's account but declined to say how. The
:50:38. > :50:43.council opted to find an informal resolution. The highest ranking
:50:44. > :50:48.employee had three meetings with Barbara. Chris Roberts was present
:50:49. > :50:53.at one. He did not apologise and no minutes were kept. The council said
:50:54. > :50:57.during the meetings Mrs Clark changed her version of the fence
:50:58. > :51:02.said she had left her keys in the office. He had tossed them over the
:51:03. > :51:11.balcony for her to catch. She caught the keys. The complaint was then
:51:12. > :51:19.withdrawn. Her son's version is different. She felt stressed and no
:51:20. > :51:25.one was listening to her. She put in a complaint about him if you times.
:51:26. > :51:29.But to make it seems they brushed everything under the carpet. We
:51:30. > :51:30.asked Chris Roberts to appear on the programme but he declined and gave
:51:31. > :51:59.us following statement. I realise that you can't comment on
:52:00. > :52:02.the details of the Councillor Roberts allegations, but how much is
:52:03. > :52:08.this about the rough-and-tumble of contemporary politics in London? Is
:52:09. > :52:13.this something the London Labour Party should investigate? If people
:52:14. > :52:17.have allegations to make, they will be investigated. There is no place
:52:18. > :52:23.in politics or any form of life, for bullying. Please make any
:52:24. > :52:28.allegations you have two the Labour Party and we will look into them. Is
:52:29. > :52:35.part of this just the rough and tumble of politics? That there is a
:52:36. > :52:44.line between robust challenges and bullying. I think it used to be part
:52:45. > :52:48.of it. I have never witnessed bullying, or anything remotely like
:52:49. > :52:55.what has been alleged here in Westminster. Having said that,
:52:56. > :52:59.Westminster is very much in the public eye and it would not be
:53:00. > :53:03.unimaginable that councils under the radar, this may go on. It is not
:53:04. > :53:09.acceptable behaviour and it should be brought to light if and when it
:53:10. > :53:13.does happen. Do you think it is true that councils do not have a light
:53:14. > :53:18.shone on them in quite the same way when it comes to the behaviour of
:53:19. > :53:24.public officials? As you said, this aside, generally. Yes, these are
:53:25. > :53:31.allegations, we are talking generally. Politics is a match own
:53:32. > :53:35.profession. There are examples of intimidator repave you. In
:53:36. > :53:46.councils, you have people who have other jobs. Sometimes, their lack of
:53:47. > :53:57.professionalism comes through. I have seen some strange behaviour in
:53:58. > :54:00.councils. The way to do it is, there are ways to persuade people to do
:54:01. > :54:06.what you want to do without bullying them of being aggressive. There is
:54:07. > :54:13.an appeal to loyalty which is no bad thing. I remember... Very well put!
:54:14. > :54:16.When I was in a situation where I was going to vote against the
:54:17. > :54:20.government, one of the whips politely said, you do realise that
:54:21. > :54:22.if you vote against government, the prime Minister will hear of this.
:54:23. > :54:29.And I said, that's the point! It's time for the rest of the
:54:30. > :54:43.political news in 60 seconds. A survey for BBC London found one in
:54:44. > :54:46.five cyclists claim they have stopped riding to work following a
:54:47. > :54:53.spate of cycling related that other teas, and 70% believe it is not safe
:54:54. > :54:57.to cycle on the roads in London. Only five out of 32 councils are
:54:58. > :55:03.paying the so-called London living wage for subcontractors. Ealing,
:55:04. > :55:09.Islington and Southwark chancel among them have living wage
:55:10. > :55:14.councils. A new report shows the borough of
:55:15. > :55:19.Newham has a higher rate of tuberculosis and some impoverished
:55:20. > :55:24.nations. It has 108 cases, more than twice the rate in India.
:55:25. > :55:34.Most transport fares in London are to rise by the rate of inflation.
:55:35. > :55:35.The average fare will rise by 3.1%. Prices for season tickets on travel
:55:36. > :55:48.cards will go up by 4.1%. We now understand City Hall
:55:49. > :55:53.anticipates that travel card increases will be in line with
:55:54. > :55:58.inflation. And not at the higher rate. Good news?
:55:59. > :56:02.Anything that holds a real terms increase is to be welcomed. But the
:56:03. > :56:08.reality is, the more we can hold down prices on rail fares, they are
:56:09. > :56:13.driving the cost of living prices for Londoners. A big proportion of
:56:14. > :56:19.income goes on it. Would you like to see more done? I will always press
:56:20. > :56:23.for more to be done. As well as improvements in services and
:56:24. > :56:33.reliability. I hope we will see that in my constituency where overground
:56:34. > :56:46.services will become part of TEFL. -- TfL.
:56:47. > :56:51.We wouldn't have increased the cost of bus fares by 60%. We wouldn't
:56:52. > :57:00.have spent millions of pounds on a vanity cable car, more than 300
:57:01. > :57:05.staff in Transport for London more than ?300,000. I could go one. What
:57:06. > :57:11.you will see in January is your constituents, at a time when their
:57:12. > :57:18.wages frozen, or getting a 0.8% increase in wages, having to pay an
:57:19. > :57:22.increase of 3.1%, ?96, on the cost of their Travelcards. When you say
:57:23. > :57:28.it is a freeze, it is an example of smoke and mirrors. 1000 staff will
:57:29. > :57:34.be losing their jobs in ticket offices. If we are going to drive
:57:35. > :57:37.efficiencies. If only 3% of customers are actually using ticket
:57:38. > :57:41.offices, I don't suspect you would want to keep up the cost of that
:57:42. > :57:49.service that actually is costing money. You are very good at actually
:57:50. > :57:55.highlighting one particular issue. But in London, we are taking
:57:56. > :57:58.measures to relieve the cost of living pressures as much as we can.
:57:59. > :58:12.We have taken 2.5 million people out of income tax by raising the
:58:13. > :58:16.threshold. 10% increase in rent, average age of first-time buyer is
:58:17. > :58:24.38. London pays more in public transport than Rome Paris, New
:58:25. > :58:31.York. The real world, Londoners are struggling. You should answer what
:58:32. > :58:36.with Labour have done. You are always opposing but never proposing.
:58:37. > :58:44.You paint a picture wearing large rose tinted spectacles. You asked me
:58:45. > :58:49.the question. We would have, at the moment, local authorities are
:58:50. > :58:53.building houses twice as many as Labour authorities. We would give
:58:54. > :58:59.our authorities more powers to build more housing. Take action against,
:59:00. > :59:04.for example, 70% of houses built in London were bought by foreigners. We
:59:05. > :59:11.would address that. Total housing in London, 6.5% is bought by
:59:12. > :59:26.foreigners. Which new build. You are talking about... You haven't even
:59:27. > :59:41.looked at... From 2015, one state agents advertising to foreigners,
:59:42. > :59:45.they make... One flats built creates jobs. We are creating jobs and
:59:46. > :59:50.taxing them on their profits. That is something I thought the Labour
:59:51. > :59:56.Party might well come. How many of the 1 million young people out of
:59:57. > :00:08.work... That's all we've got time for. It's back now to Andrew.
:00:09. > :00:22.Tomorrow, the House of Commons will pay its tributes to Nelson Mandela.
:00:23. > :00:42.Our nation has lost its greatest son. Our people have lost a father.
:00:43. > :00:49.The first thing I ever did that involved an issue or policy, or
:00:50. > :00:56.politics, was protest against apartheid.
:00:57. > :01:06.I think his greatest legacy, to South Africa and to the world, is
:01:07. > :01:16.the emphasis which he has always put on the need for a conciliation, on
:01:17. > :01:22.the importance of human rights. He also made us understand that we can
:01:23. > :01:25.change the world. We can change the world by changing attitudes, by
:01:26. > :01:31.changing perceptions. For this reason, I would like to pay him
:01:32. > :01:43.tribute as a great human being, who raised the standard of humanity.
:01:44. > :01:47.Thank you for the gift of Madiba. Thank you for what he has enabled us
:01:48. > :02:05.to know we can become. We are joined now by the Labour MP
:02:06. > :02:09.Diane Abbott. You met Mr Mandela not one after he was released from
:02:10. > :02:14.prison in 1990. He went as an election observer for the first one
:02:15. > :02:19.person, one-vote in South Africa. I would guess, of all the people you
:02:20. > :02:23.met in your life, you must have been the most impressive and biggest
:02:24. > :02:28.influence? He was extraordinary. He had just come out of prison, 28
:02:29. > :02:34.years in reason. He had seen a lot of his colleagues tortured, blown up
:02:35. > :02:37.and killed. He was entirely without bitterness. That is what came
:02:38. > :02:42.across. That was key to his achievement, to achieve a peaceful
:02:43. > :02:47.transition. Everybody thought that if you have black majority rule, you
:02:48. > :02:52.might have a bloodbath. It's down to Nelson Mandela but didn't happen. I
:02:53. > :02:58.remember FW de Klerk saying that Mandela was the key to getting a
:02:59. > :03:05.peaceful transition. Absolutely the key, an amazing man. London was one
:03:06. > :03:09.of the centres, people talked about it as being the other centre of the
:03:10. > :03:13.anti-apartheid struggle. That anti-apartheid struggle in London,
:03:14. > :03:18.it had an effect on black politics in Britain? Oh, yes. If you were
:03:19. > :03:24.black and politically active at the time, the apartheid struggle, the
:03:25. > :03:28.struggle against white supremacy in South Africa, was very important.
:03:29. > :03:30.Whatever your colour, the anti-apartheid struggle, for our
:03:31. > :03:37.generation, was the political campaign. We have the 50th
:03:38. > :03:40.anniversary of Kennedy's assassination. Mr Mandela's death.
:03:41. > :03:45.We are kind of running out of people that inspired us? I will never
:03:46. > :03:50.forget where I was when I saw him come out of prison, hand-in-hand
:03:51. > :03:53.with the women, I might add. If you have spent your whole teenage years
:03:54. > :03:58.and 20 is boycotting, marching, picketing, to see him actually come
:03:59. > :04:06.out was amazing. Do you think it was more exciting to meet you or the
:04:07. > :04:13.Spice Girls? I think the Spice Girls. What did the Labour
:04:14. > :04:17.backbenchers think about Ed Balls's performance after the Autumn
:04:18. > :04:22.Statement? Luck, Ed Balls is a brilliant man, but I think even he
:04:23. > :04:25.would say that it was not his best performance. But if you look at the
:04:26. > :04:30.polls, the public liked the points he made. The backbenchers were
:04:31. > :04:37.quiet, there was something wrong? I noticed that. It was like a wall of
:04:38. > :04:39.sound, deliberately. They know that under pressure his stamina might
:04:40. > :04:45.come back and it is difficult for him. That is what they were trying
:04:46. > :04:48.to incite. I have had experience first hand, a look at all of these
:04:49. > :04:54.anonymous and sometimes not anonymous quotes in the media. The
:04:55. > :05:04.spinning has begun against him? This is the party of brotherly love, no
:05:05. > :05:09.matter what the Tories say, we can say worse about each other. How
:05:10. > :05:15.could it be that two former aides to Gordon Brown do not like each other?
:05:16. > :05:20.Far be it from me to say. If he wanted to do it, and I'm not saying
:05:21. > :05:25.he does, is Mr Miliband ruthless enough to get rid of Ed Balls? I
:05:26. > :05:30.mean, he got rid of you, he got rid of his brother? One thing you should
:05:31. > :05:33.not do is under estimate Ed Miliband's capacity for
:05:34. > :05:39.ruthlessness. If he feels it is the right thing to do, he will do it.
:05:40. > :05:42.It's not just a matter of... Ed Balls is a big, powerful
:05:43. > :05:46.personality. He's great to interview because he is across his subject,
:05:47. > :05:50.you can have a really good argument with him, a man that knows his
:05:51. > :05:57.brief, his facts. But it's not just about the personality. There is a
:05:58. > :06:02.kind of sense that Labour needs to look forwards more on economic
:06:03. > :06:05.policy. Of course, the standard of living has been hugely successful
:06:06. > :06:10.for Labour. But it needs more than that on economic policy? I think he
:06:11. > :06:15.has been one of the most effective member 's Shadow Cabinet, and he's
:06:16. > :06:19.always associated with the Brown years, where there is always an
:06:20. > :06:23.element about, you were the guys that got it wrong. I think Ed
:06:24. > :06:27.Miliband will be very tempted to replace him with Alistair Darling.
:06:28. > :06:30.The scenario goes like this, Alistair Darling saves the union and
:06:31. > :06:34.then in September he saves the Labour Party. Ultimately, I don't
:06:35. > :06:38.think he would do it. Talk about shifting tectonic plates, it would,
:06:39. > :06:45.wouldn't it? But it is a step too far. Ed Balls would not be too
:06:46. > :06:55.happy. It is not something you would want to do lightly. That sounds a
:06:56. > :07:00.bit of a threat. Not from you. I can't see Ed Balls magnanimously
:07:01. > :07:04.retreating and say, go on, Alistair Darling, take the job I have been
:07:05. > :07:07.after all career. Where do you put him? Do you make him a middle
:07:08. > :07:13.ranking business or welfare secretary? He wouldn't do that. If
:07:14. > :07:18.you sack him, he would retreat to the backbenchers. He might take up
:07:19. > :07:22.knitting and practices piano scales, or he might have a blood feud with
:07:23. > :07:28.Ed Miliband. I don't know which could be. You look back to when he
:07:29. > :07:31.was schools Secretary, you could feel he was constantly fuming. I
:07:32. > :07:35.think he is better inside the tent, looking out, than the other way
:07:36. > :07:39.around. The thing one Labour strategist said to me was that he is
:07:40. > :07:43.too much looking into the rear-view mirror, when it comes to economic
:07:44. > :07:49.policy. He needs to look ahead through the windscreen. That had
:07:50. > :07:53.some resonance? He was at the centre of Labour's economic policy-making
:07:54. > :07:58.from the mid-90s. So it's hard for him but he has to look forward.
:07:59. > :08:02.There is an interesting comparison with 2009. Gordon Brown got in
:08:03. > :08:05.trouble when he said the choice is between Labour investment and Tory
:08:06. > :08:09.cuts. Everybody knew it was between Labour cuts and Tory cuts. In other
:08:10. > :08:13.words, he was not acknowledging reality. With Ed Balls, OK, we can
:08:14. > :08:17.say it is the wrong sort of recovery, but there is a recovery.
:08:18. > :08:20.Does he not need to absorb that punch and say there is a recovery,
:08:21. > :08:27.then people will listen to him? Possibly. We know that the
:08:28. > :08:31.macroeconomics are looking better. We also know people are not
:08:32. > :08:37.experiencing it as a recovery in living standards. No one, not even
:08:38. > :08:40.Tories, really believe that David Cameron knows what it is like for
:08:41. > :08:44.middle-income people to live normal lives. Living standards is
:08:45. > :08:47.particularly powerful because of the composition of the government? Don't
:08:48. > :08:52.go away. This time last year we ambushed our political panel with a
:08:53. > :08:56.quiz. They didn't come out of it smelling of roses, but they did come
:08:57. > :09:02.out rather smelly. Will the coalition still be in place
:09:03. > :09:10.a year from now? Yes. Definitely. I say definitely as well. From now,
:09:11. > :09:17.one year, will we know the date of the European referendum? Yes. No. I
:09:18. > :09:23.say no as well. How much growth will there be? Less than 1%. Father
:09:24. > :09:30.Christmas is less qualified than me, but I will go for one. I will go for
:09:31. > :09:37.a quarter of that. 0.4%. Sorry, a third of that. I am with you, and
:09:38. > :09:42.1%. We didn't do too badly. What will growth be next year? I will
:09:43. > :09:50.remind you, the OBR has upgraded to 2.4%. Better stick with the OBR, got
:09:51. > :09:55.it wrong last year. Well, they went down in March and then went back in
:09:56. > :09:58.December. I'm going to go under and claim credit where it's higher. I'm
:09:59. > :10:05.going to say 1%. Deliberately get it wrong. Given our record, if we say
:10:06. > :10:09.there is going to be spectacular growth, does it mean we're going to
:10:10. > :10:15.go into recession? There is incentive to be cautious. 2%. 2.4%,
:10:16. > :10:22.because the housing market in London is rocketing. It would be closer to
:10:23. > :10:30.3% and 2.4, mark my words. We'll Ed Balls be Shadow Chancellor by this
:10:31. > :10:37.time next year? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I value my life. Will UKIP mean the
:10:38. > :10:45.European elections, by which I mean have the highest percentage of the
:10:46. > :10:51.vote? Yes. Second behind Labour. Second behind Labour. Will Alex
:10:52. > :10:57.Salmond win the independence referendum? No, but it will be
:10:58. > :11:00.closer than we think. No, unless they do something catastrophic like
:11:01. > :11:08.let Cameron debate him. Too close to call. Controversial. How many
:11:09. > :11:18.Romanians and Bulgarians will come to Britain in 2014? Far fewer than
:11:19. > :11:21.anyone thinks. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria, like Nigel
:11:22. > :11:27.Farage thanks. I'll go with that, I'm confident. A change of tone for
:11:28. > :11:31.your magazine. Not many will come, but a lot here already will
:11:32. > :11:37.normalise and be counted into figures. Too many for most
:11:38. > :11:41.right-wing commentators. I think quite a few will come, but not the
:11:42. > :11:51.kind of numbers that made such a huge difference. This time,
:11:52. > :11:55.everybody is open. They do like to speak English, that is the reason
:11:56. > :12:01.they want to come. We'll all three of you still be here by this time
:12:02. > :12:08.next year? Yes. Would you recommend that? Yes, keep them. And he has
:12:09. > :12:15.lovely boots. Shiny red boots. If you can keep affording me, I will be
:12:16. > :12:21.here. I hope so, it sounds like you have a firing squad outside. I hope
:12:22. > :12:29.so, maybe you will find some true talent. Very pragmatic, aren't they?
:12:30. > :12:33.Let me put this to you, I think you will agree. The coalition will not
:12:34. > :12:39.break now, this side of the election next year? There will not be... They
:12:40. > :12:46.will not go their own ways by this time next year? Of next year, maybe
:12:47. > :12:53.just after. Early 2015. This side of the election? What is the UKIP view?
:12:54. > :12:58.I don't think there is an advantage to either of them. If the Lib Dems
:12:59. > :13:01.pulled out, they would look like there were a lodger in the Tory
:13:02. > :13:05.house of government. I think it would suit the Lib Dems to break
:13:06. > :13:09.just before the election. I think that is what Vince Cable wants to
:13:10. > :13:17.do. I don't think it is what Nick Clegg would like to do. The Tories
:13:18. > :13:19.would love it. They would have all of the toys to themselves. Yellow
:13:20. > :13:22.marker they would look like the grown-ups. The problem for Vince
:13:23. > :13:25.Cable is that he's not the force that used to be after his temper
:13:26. > :13:34.tantrum at the Conference. I will be back with the Daily
:13:35. > :13:39.Politics next week. If Santer gives you a diary in your stocking, pencil
:13:40. > :13:47.in Sunday the 20th of January, the first Sunday Politics of 2014.
:13:48. > :13:48.Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. Unless it is
:13:49. > :13:51.Christmas. And New Year.