:00:37. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:45. > :00:49.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:50. > :00:53.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:54. > :00:57.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:58. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:03.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:04. > :01:07.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:08. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:14.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans like
:01:15. > :01:17.Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant
:01:18. > :01:19.week for the party, they might have something to say. And here they are.
:01:20. > :01:21.Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all three are now
:01:22. > :01:22.unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His
:01:23. > :01:42.office said he had a And with me - as always - the
:01:43. > :01:45.political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular
:01:46. > :01:48.they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate
:01:49. > :01:51.to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and
:01:52. > :02:04.they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami
:02:05. > :02:11.Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
:02:12. > :02:15.Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour
:02:16. > :02:19.would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.
:02:20. > :02:22.But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,
:02:23. > :02:26.Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a
:02:27. > :02:29.return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is
:02:30. > :02:31.anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this
:02:32. > :02:34.morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open
:02:35. > :02:36.up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely
:02:37. > :02:39.with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances
:02:40. > :02:41.and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last
:02:42. > :02:45.few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the
:02:46. > :02:55.next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the
:02:56. > :03:01.deficit down, of course they do. But to cut the top rate... It is foolish
:03:02. > :03:04.and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,
:03:05. > :03:09.pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get
:03:10. > :03:16.this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy
:03:17. > :03:22.work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now
:03:23. > :03:26.in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the
:03:27. > :03:30.political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new
:03:31. > :03:34.voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to
:03:35. > :03:41.vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people
:03:42. > :03:47.enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it
:03:48. > :03:52.is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving
:03:53. > :03:55.beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there
:03:56. > :03:59.has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the
:04:00. > :04:03.Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with
:04:04. > :04:09.their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done
:04:10. > :04:12.this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will
:04:13. > :04:18.have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony
:04:19. > :04:26.Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on
:04:27. > :04:32.how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things
:04:33. > :04:40.isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are
:04:41. > :04:43.going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push
:04:44. > :04:52.the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,
:04:53. > :04:58.?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All
:04:59. > :05:02.three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget
:05:03. > :05:06.surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12
:05:07. > :05:12.billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls
:05:13. > :05:16.is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate. The
:05:17. > :05:21.contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what
:05:22. > :05:26.does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is
:05:27. > :05:29.cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question
:05:30. > :05:34.that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the
:05:35. > :05:38.Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its
:05:39. > :05:42.side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking
:05:43. > :05:48.difficult for them this morning. Does it matter if Labour has
:05:49. > :05:52.business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this
:05:53. > :05:56.announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed
:05:57. > :06:01.Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a
:06:02. > :06:07.result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not
:06:08. > :06:12.to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a
:06:13. > :06:16.measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of
:06:17. > :06:21.things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has
:06:22. > :06:27.taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI
:06:28. > :06:33.don't want us to leave business. Business is in a bit of a cleft
:06:34. > :06:36.stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls
:06:37. > :06:40.is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on
:06:41. > :06:44.that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They
:06:45. > :06:50.probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this
:06:51. > :06:54.is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what
:06:55. > :06:59.go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was
:07:00. > :07:04.introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate
:07:05. > :07:09.where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib
:07:10. > :07:13.Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick
:07:14. > :07:15.Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking
:07:16. > :07:18.confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of
:07:19. > :07:21.criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a
:07:22. > :07:25.Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's
:07:26. > :07:30.Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority
:07:31. > :07:35.as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone
:07:36. > :07:38.to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting
:07:39. > :07:46.him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly
:07:47. > :07:50.destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I
:07:51. > :07:56.would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to
:07:57. > :08:02.stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in
:08:03. > :08:08.trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:09. > :08:13.over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of
:08:14. > :08:18.women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more. I
:08:19. > :08:21.said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of
:08:22. > :08:30.Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn't. I
:08:31. > :08:34.think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal
:08:35. > :08:38.Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say
:08:39. > :08:44.sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards
:08:45. > :08:47.legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.
:08:48. > :08:52.This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the
:08:53. > :08:57.leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due
:08:58. > :09:03.process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the
:09:04. > :09:07.Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the
:09:08. > :09:13.future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in
:09:14. > :09:18.the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses
:09:19. > :09:25.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the
:09:26. > :09:28.simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the
:09:29. > :09:33.complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that
:09:34. > :09:38.arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?
:09:39. > :09:44.The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but
:09:45. > :09:49.if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some
:09:50. > :09:53.long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the
:09:54. > :09:56.innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due
:09:57. > :10:02.process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever
:10:03. > :10:06.did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing
:10:07. > :10:11.ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He
:10:12. > :10:14.refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that
:10:15. > :10:18.report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his
:10:19. > :10:23.membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a
:10:24. > :10:26.crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal
:10:27. > :10:30.action against the party by the man long credited with building its
:10:31. > :10:34.success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory
:10:35. > :10:37.MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the
:10:38. > :10:42.Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without
:10:43. > :10:46.any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather
:10:47. > :10:50.serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib
:10:51. > :10:55.Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into
:10:56. > :11:00.allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a
:11:01. > :11:04.constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these
:11:05. > :11:10.sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg
:11:11. > :11:16.ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most
:11:17. > :11:21.powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.
:11:22. > :11:24.Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already
:11:25. > :11:32.know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.
:11:33. > :11:35.You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two
:11:36. > :11:39.is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of
:11:40. > :11:42.coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak
:11:43. > :11:45.to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party
:11:46. > :11:53.veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a
:11:54. > :11:57.significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And
:11:58. > :12:03.here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all
:12:04. > :12:06.three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the
:12:07. > :12:09.outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon
:12:10. > :12:13.Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,
:12:14. > :12:17."I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the
:12:18. > :12:22.candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen
:12:23. > :12:26.by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard
:12:27. > :12:34.thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to
:12:35. > :12:41.answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad
:12:42. > :12:45.politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic
:12:46. > :12:51.irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too
:12:52. > :12:54.democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed
:12:55. > :12:58.Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has
:12:59. > :13:06.to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it
:13:07. > :13:17.democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was
:13:18. > :13:22.voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was
:13:23. > :13:29.new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already
:13:30. > :13:34.hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long
:13:35. > :13:37.Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for
:13:38. > :13:41.them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this
:13:42. > :13:46.their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The
:13:47. > :13:49.third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in
:13:50. > :13:54.the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They
:13:55. > :13:59.do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris
:14:00. > :14:03.Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal
:14:04. > :14:07.Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a
:14:08. > :14:11.line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that
:14:12. > :14:15.the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that
:14:16. > :14:18.there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very
:14:19. > :14:23.difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is
:14:24. > :14:27.threatening through his friends, these famous friends, to spill all
:14:28. > :14:31.the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the
:14:32. > :14:34.Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where
:14:35. > :14:39.they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in
:14:40. > :14:43.the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the
:14:44. > :14:48.summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a
:14:49. > :14:52.good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising
:14:53. > :14:55.authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.
:14:56. > :14:59.Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a
:15:00. > :15:03.leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic
:15:04. > :15:08.or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it
:15:09. > :15:15.is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over
:15:16. > :15:20.events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You
:15:21. > :15:31.don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has
:15:32. > :15:35.been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over
:15:36. > :15:38.whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well
:15:39. > :15:41.there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's
:15:42. > :15:44.the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail
:15:45. > :15:47.commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost
:15:48. > :15:53.of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while
:15:54. > :16:00.wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail
:16:01. > :16:05.users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out
:16:06. > :16:08.more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get
:16:09. > :16:15.to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European
:16:16. > :16:23.counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their
:16:24. > :16:28.average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like
:16:29. > :16:31.season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with
:16:32. > :16:36.ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are
:16:37. > :16:49.more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins
:16:50. > :16:53.me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome. You claim to be in the
:16:54. > :16:59.party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power
:17:00. > :17:05.rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up
:17:06. > :17:12.in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms
:17:13. > :17:18.by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten
:17:19. > :17:22.years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The
:17:23. > :17:31.Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the
:17:32. > :17:37.passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year
:17:38. > :17:43.in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing
:17:44. > :17:47.huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for
:17:48. > :17:53.the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending ?500
:17:54. > :17:59.million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we
:18:00. > :18:05.are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will
:18:06. > :18:13.invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an
:18:14. > :18:18.expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season
:18:19. > :18:23.ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's
:18:24. > :18:30.look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost
:18:31. > :18:37.over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international
:18:38. > :18:51.cities. The British commuter is being ripped
:18:52. > :18:56.off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our
:18:57. > :19:00.railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge
:19:01. > :19:07.amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got
:19:08. > :19:22.here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White
:19:23. > :19:30.-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen
:19:31. > :19:35.transformational changes in our railway services and we need to
:19:36. > :19:40.carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started
:19:41. > :19:50.investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than
:19:51. > :19:58.our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy
:19:59. > :20:04.is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You
:20:05. > :20:06.is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to
:20:07. > :20:11.be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these
:20:12. > :20:17.figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their
:20:18. > :20:23.homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a
:20:24. > :20:26.reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway
:20:27. > :20:31.industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway
:20:32. > :20:40.20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to
:20:41. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:46. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:46. > :20:59.government, the Ministry of transport.
:21:00. > :21:05.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:06. > :21:11.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:12. > :21:16.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:17. > :21:21.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:22. > :21:25.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:26. > :21:31.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:32. > :21:36.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:37. > :21:43.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:44. > :21:49.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:50. > :21:55.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:56. > :22:01.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:02. > :22:09.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the
:22:10. > :22:15.lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for
:22:16. > :22:20.example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We
:22:21. > :22:23.are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is
:22:24. > :22:29.still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the
:22:30. > :22:34.rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you
:22:35. > :22:44.link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay
:22:45. > :22:48.for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton
:22:49. > :22:53.Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.5
:22:54. > :22:58.billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we
:22:59. > :23:11.have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for
:23:12. > :23:15.it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until
:23:16. > :23:24.the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket
:23:25. > :23:30.has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the
:23:31. > :23:46.passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who
:23:47. > :23:49.has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our
:23:50. > :23:54.railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance
:23:55. > :23:59.right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the
:24:00. > :24:08.user of public transport. I don't accept that. They are paying the
:24:09. > :24:15.same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that
:24:16. > :24:22.there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record
:24:23. > :24:27.amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a
:24:28. > :24:33.time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters
:24:34. > :24:39.particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of
:24:40. > :24:44.living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,
:24:45. > :24:59.and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered
:25:00. > :25:03.new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,
:25:04. > :25:09.they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you
:25:10. > :25:14.are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did
:25:15. > :25:19.before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It
:25:20. > :25:28.is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for. Why
:25:29. > :25:33.not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more
:25:34. > :25:38.pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we
:25:39. > :25:41.are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that
:25:42. > :25:47.is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,
:25:48. > :25:56.yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed
:25:57. > :26:01.two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your
:26:02. > :26:07.department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission
:26:08. > :26:12.to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now
:26:13. > :26:18.widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for
:26:19. > :26:24.purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it
:26:25. > :26:29.is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have
:26:30. > :26:40.extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to
:26:41. > :26:44.make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a
:26:45. > :26:58.different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.
:26:59. > :27:02.What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by
:27:03. > :27:07.Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and
:27:08. > :27:12.I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the
:27:13. > :27:17.end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the
:27:18. > :27:23.House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will
:27:24. > :27:29.get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the
:27:30. > :27:37.exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress
:27:38. > :27:44.through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have
:27:45. > :27:48.concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the
:27:49. > :27:58.line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure
:27:59. > :28:05.is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as
:28:06. > :28:08.chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are
:28:09. > :28:14.ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London
:28:15. > :28:19.we are building Crossrail, ?14.5 billion investment. There was a
:28:20. > :28:27.report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.
:28:28. > :28:36.Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in
:28:37. > :28:41.the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay
:28:42. > :28:47.people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on
:28:48. > :28:54.?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are
:28:55. > :28:59.very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we
:29:00. > :29:04.are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.
:29:05. > :29:08.It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather
:29:09. > :29:13.pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big
:29:14. > :29:17.rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national
:29:18. > :29:24.infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty
:29:25. > :29:28.so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and
:29:29. > :29:32.all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the
:29:33. > :29:36.Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what
:29:37. > :29:42.our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take
:29:43. > :29:52.them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many
:29:53. > :30:00.conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the
:30:01. > :30:06.immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and
:30:07. > :30:10.Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of
:30:11. > :30:16.migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been
:30:17. > :30:21.more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz
:30:22. > :30:26.greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days
:30:27. > :30:29.and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new
:30:30. > :30:35.Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from
:30:36. > :30:40.backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel
:30:41. > :30:51.Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:30:52. > :30:55.can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the
:30:56. > :31:03.amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there
:31:04. > :31:07.hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to
:31:08. > :31:12.restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to
:31:13. > :31:16.2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st,
:31:17. > :31:21.Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350,000
:31:22. > :31:27.people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,
:31:28. > :31:31.especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in
:31:32. > :31:36.excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The
:31:37. > :31:42.real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,
:31:43. > :31:46.attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our
:31:47. > :31:51.people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to
:31:52. > :31:56.accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding
:31:57. > :32:00.principle of the European Union? We were trying to keep the restrictions
:32:01. > :32:04.that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU
:32:05. > :32:09.membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't
:32:10. > :32:12.aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still
:32:13. > :32:18.recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK
:32:19. > :32:23.Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible
:32:24. > :32:26.recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is
:32:27. > :32:35.worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their
:32:36. > :32:38.accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a
:32:39. > :32:43.law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?
:32:44. > :32:50.Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in
:32:51. > :32:55.work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane
:32:56. > :33:00.Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach
:33:01. > :33:04.of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs
:33:05. > :33:08.have been particularly mindless, because what they want to do
:33:09. > :33:14.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:15. > :33:21.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:22. > :33:25.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:26. > :33:29.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:30. > :33:34.to be debating before Christmas. As we speak they've not cut a deal, so
:33:35. > :33:40.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:41. > :33:44.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:45. > :33:50.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:51. > :33:53.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:54. > :33:57.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:58. > :34:01.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:02. > :34:06.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:07. > :34:11.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:12. > :34:16.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:17. > :34:21.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:22. > :34:25.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:26. > :34:29.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:30. > :34:34.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:35. > :34:39.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating
:34:40. > :34:43.Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing
:34:44. > :34:48.people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party
:34:49. > :34:53.apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,
:34:54. > :34:58.Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather
:34:59. > :35:04.see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a
:35:05. > :35:08.very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute
:35:09. > :35:12.book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need
:35:13. > :35:16.to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU
:35:17. > :35:24.migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill
:35:25. > :35:29.without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the
:35:30. > :35:34.bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:35. > :35:41.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:42. > :35:45.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:46. > :35:49.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:50. > :35:54.Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the
:35:55. > :36:01.Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for
:36:02. > :36:06.the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He
:36:07. > :36:11.hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this
:36:12. > :36:16.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:17. > :36:20.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:21. > :36:25.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:26. > :36:29.proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the
:36:30. > :36:34.restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and
:36:35. > :36:39.driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more
:36:40. > :36:47.measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be --
:36:48. > :36:53.popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane
:36:54. > :36:56.Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and
:36:57. > :36:59.high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP
:37:00. > :37:01.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:02. > :37:04.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:05. > :37:08.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:09. > :37:10.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:11. > :37:19.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.
:37:20. > :37:23.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:24. > :37:25.ahead with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics
:37:26. > :37:37.across the UK. Hello and welcome from us and
:37:38. > :37:44.welcome straight away to my guests for the duration this week, Greg
:37:45. > :37:49.Hands, and Jeremy Corbyn, Labour MP for Islington north. Later on we'll
:37:50. > :37:52.be finding out why most but not all London councils are set to freeze
:37:53. > :37:57.their council tax this year, ahead of local elections in the capital.
:37:58. > :38:02.But first, to the propaganda war being waged between tube unions and
:38:03. > :38:07.transport bosses ahead of two planned strikes next month, and the
:38:08. > :38:12.opening of a new front, with TfL claiming it had persuaded a,000 or
:38:13. > :38:15.so members of staff to act as so-called tube ambassadors,
:38:16. > :38:21.attempting to keep transport moving during the planned 48-hour stop am
:38:22. > :38:26.as. Them volunteer scabs, the RMT claimed. No, they were responding to
:38:27. > :38:32.totally unnecessary strikes, said TfL. What do you make of this? I
:38:33. > :38:36.strongly agree with TfL. These are totally unnecessary strikes. The
:38:37. > :38:43.package being proposed to reform the tube, to create 24 hour service on
:38:44. > :38:48.key tube lines, and funding that by end ticket offices, where at the
:38:49. > :38:51.moment fewer than 3% of tube journeys are carried out using a
:38:52. > :38:56.ticket bought from a ticket office, so why don't we bring ourselves up
:38:57. > :39:00.to date, get a 24 hour tube like it hat had in New York City, and in
:39:01. > :39:03.return end the practice of these tube offices, make sure there's
:39:04. > :39:09.staff there, mare that the network is safe? I would volunteer to be an
:39:10. > :39:14.ambassador if I had time to do the training. If they are watching we'll
:39:15. > :39:21.pass on your details. Jeremy Corbyn? How about the Mayor meeting the tube
:39:22. > :39:26.unions? He hasn't met them in six years and he hasn't interacted with
:39:27. > :39:31.those elected to act for the staff he is responsible for. 1,000 jobs
:39:32. > :39:35.being lost, and 100,000 people from day use ticket offices. When I came
:39:36. > :39:39.out of a parliamentary debate, I went to Westminster station, a long
:39:40. > :39:46.queue of people trying to get to the ticket office. Mostly non-English
:39:47. > :39:50.speaking tourists. Finsbury Park station packed with people.
:39:51. > :39:56.Heathrow, this is a ludicrous proposal. Why not get together with
:39:57. > :40:00.the unions and talk about it. What about this strategy this week of
:40:01. > :40:05.claiming that there are going to be these ambassadors, drawing on the
:40:06. > :40:09.spirit, the idea from the Olympics, volunteers coming to the front
:40:10. > :40:13.line... People volunteered for the Olympics because they wanteded to be
:40:14. > :40:17.ambassadors for London. They did a fantastic job. Boris Johnson is
:40:18. > :40:22.turning logic on its head to think people want to come in to break a
:40:23. > :40:31.strike and be volunteers. You see these as strike breakers These are
:40:32. > :40:36.trained volunteers. To stop the track... These are people who will
:40:37. > :40:42.be trained. You support closure of the offices. You had your say,
:40:43. > :40:46.Jeremy, let me have mine. My constituent has more tube users than
:40:47. > :40:53.any other in the country. My tube users depend on that service. Due
:40:54. > :40:57.agree with TfL looking for ambassadors who are going to come
:40:58. > :41:02.front of house? I do. It should be applauded. To get the tube working
:41:03. > :41:07.and stop this irresponsible four days of strike at a time when the
:41:08. > :41:12.London economy is really starting to pick up, that's sabotage of the
:41:13. > :41:20.network and asupport the robust response. 100,000 people were day
:41:21. > :41:24.already cannot get help. It will be a 24 hour tube servicification,
:41:25. > :41:29.which is what London needs at this time. This is about closure of
:41:30. > :41:39.ticket offices and the closure of thousands of jobs. You know not many
:41:40. > :41:45.people use the offices now. I go to Fulham Broadway twice a day. Stand
:41:46. > :41:50.at a ticket office. My ticket office. Mind out why people use
:41:51. > :41:57.ticket office - for information, tickets, Oyster Cards. There'll
:41:58. > :42:03.still be the staff there. I suspect there is another agenda here for the
:42:04. > :42:07.Mayor. Let's move on. London borough elections are in May and most
:42:08. > :42:12.authorities are intending to freeze council tax, though not all.
:42:13. > :42:17.This week Sunday Politics spoke to all of London's 33 local authorities
:42:18. > :42:21.to ask what their plans were for council tax this year. Only 8 have
:42:22. > :42:25.yet to announce their attention. The rest want to freeze council tax,
:42:26. > :42:28.except Hammersmith and Barnet, which are going for a cut. According to
:42:29. > :42:32.the Government that's evidence that local authorities are more than
:42:33. > :42:36.capable of dealing with the cuts handed Dowd by Whitehall. We already
:42:37. > :42:40.know the majority, particularly in London, of councils are going to be
:42:41. > :42:45.freezing council tax or cutting it this year. Well run Councils can
:42:46. > :42:49.deliver more for less. Here in Conservative-run Barnet, one of two
:42:50. > :42:54.councils going for a cut, the local authority has made national
:42:55. > :42:58.headlines for its so-called One Barnet programme, sometimes called
:42:59. > :43:02.the largest outsourcing project in local government. Back office
:43:03. > :43:07.functions are operated by a private company called Capita. On top of
:43:08. > :43:12.that jobs like repaving the street are done by a private company. Half
:43:13. > :43:15.owned by Capita and half by the council. The idea is that that new
:43:16. > :43:19.company would sell services around the country to whoever wanted to buy
:43:20. > :43:24.them. If money was made, Barnet would split the profits with Capita.
:43:25. > :43:28.As of yet though, they haven't found any buyers. But the council's
:43:29. > :43:32.already making money from this site at Millbrook Park. When it is
:43:33. > :43:36.finished there'll be over 2,000 new homes here, a joint venture between
:43:37. > :43:40.the council and two private companies. If this doesn't look like
:43:41. > :43:44.council housing, it might be because it is not. It is just private
:43:45. > :43:48.property developed by the council, sold the private buyers and the aim
:43:49. > :43:53.is to make the local authority money. But elsewhere in the borough
:43:54. > :43:58.the council's efforts to raise money are accused of causing real
:43:59. > :44:02.distress. This is Jan set. Her husband died last year. We had
:44:03. > :44:09.probably been together more than 30 years. We had been married more than
:44:10. > :44:14.30 years, and in his early 60s he developed dementia. At first Barnet
:44:15. > :44:19.Council paid for his daycare. I think the trips to the day centre
:44:20. > :44:22.were very important both for him and for myself, because it gave him an
:44:23. > :44:29.opportunity to mix with other people, and for me it was an
:44:30. > :44:34.opportunity for respite, and to know he was safe. But after the council
:44:35. > :44:39.introduced means testing Janet had to pay ?37 a day. I probably felt
:44:40. > :44:47.the stress of it more, because I was the one dealing with the finances,
:44:48. > :44:53.and with the bills coming in. Yes, I found it very worrying with. Another
:44:54. > :44:58.issue to deal with in what was becoming quite a difficult situation
:44:59. > :45:15.where you couldn't manage, it was out of control. An election debate
:45:16. > :45:23.organised this week, the council cuts to services were high on the
:45:24. > :45:28.agenda. I believe it is a gimmick, and it will be an expensive gimmick
:45:29. > :45:33.for the residents of Barnet because it is unsustainable. You cannot cut
:45:34. > :45:41.the council tax and maintain services. UKIP were not invited,
:45:42. > :45:46.they still turned up. One politician who was invited and declined the
:45:47. > :45:50.opportunity to make his case was the Conservative leader of the Council,
:45:51. > :45:57.Richard Cornelius. Not there, but he is here, Richard
:45:58. > :46:05.Cornelius, welcome to you. It was described as a gimmick. How much do
:46:06. > :46:15.you plan to be in -- bring the council tax down? It is ?21 for an
:46:16. > :46:20.average council taxpayer in a year, a small amount. It is a gesture. We
:46:21. > :46:25.have been working hard, we have managed to cut the cost of running
:46:26. > :46:32.the council and everybody should share in that. You accept it is a
:46:33. > :46:42.gesture really. Yes, but it shows the direction of travel and our
:46:43. > :46:55.aspirations. What about the case of the lady who suffered as a result of
:46:56. > :47:00.introducing the means testing. It is fair that people who can contribute
:47:01. > :47:09.to contribute, and that is what has happened in this case. Do you think
:47:10. > :47:14.it has proved popular? Yes, there is a wide recognition that the welfare
:47:15. > :47:20.system has to reform. It is unsustainable if it is unfair. There
:47:21. > :47:28.is also the added complication he is suffering from dementia, it is a bit
:47:29. > :47:34.of a shock for them, isn't it? It is well flagged up and she was treated
:47:35. > :47:37.kindly, and her husband's care was provided by a charity. The
:47:38. > :47:42.perception was that she could afford to pay and so she should, whereas
:47:43. > :47:49.there are many unfortunate people who need help more. When you talk
:47:50. > :47:53.about a gesture, it is important to provide a gesture such as this
:47:54. > :47:59.because it is an election year? Do you need to persuade people about
:48:00. > :48:06.your transformation and the outsourcing that you mean business?
:48:07. > :48:10.We had to cut our spending by 33% and frankly unbelievable that we
:48:11. > :48:16.could do it, but we did achieve that. You don't think that is fair?
:48:17. > :48:21.In hindsight it was fair because we have managed to do it and most other
:48:22. > :48:25.London boroughs have managed to do it so it chose it can be done, and
:48:26. > :48:30.now we are faced with the situation where it is right to give something
:48:31. > :48:36.back to the taxpayer to show that we are at heart a tax-cutting party.
:48:37. > :48:46.Would you agree that it shows what is possible now? Know, it loses
:48:47. > :48:56.democratic control, it is damaging for the poorest people in the
:48:57. > :49:01.borough, and it is a model of local government that makes easyJet and
:49:02. > :49:06.Ryanair look comfortable and efficient. This is a novel proposal
:49:07. > :49:11.put forward by Barnet and it is not very popular in Barnet, and I can't
:49:12. > :49:18.understand why you can't go to a public meeting to defend it. It
:49:19. > :49:25.hasn't cost 80 million to do this, but that is providing services as
:49:26. > :49:30.well. 80 million to sell it. That's not true, it is a contract, we are
:49:31. > :49:35.paying somebody to do something that we were less able to do
:49:36. > :49:40.efficiently. We have now outsourced the back-office function, it is a
:49:41. > :49:47.no-brainer. Do you claim these councils are freezing their council
:49:48. > :49:52.tax because they can? It is not too tough for them. I agree with
:49:53. > :49:59.Richard. The other council cutting its council tax this year is mine.
:50:00. > :50:03.The point is that you can cut council tax and deliver better
:50:04. > :50:09.services. In Hammersmith and Fulham Council tax is down 20% in the last
:50:10. > :50:16.seven years, in that time we have produced cleaner streets, we have
:50:17. > :50:20.halved the debt of the council. On the wider principle, not about your
:50:21. > :50:25.own constituency in this instance, because we haven't heard from the
:50:26. > :50:35.film, from you, from Richard, one of the reasons the boroughs have no
:50:36. > :50:42.choice is because of this bride, the freeze grant. It would be impossible
:50:43. > :50:46.to reverse what happened under Labour, we recognise council tax is
:50:47. > :50:51.something we need to keep down as a government, and well-run
:50:52. > :50:56.Conservative councils delivering that show it is perfectly possible
:50:57. > :51:03.to deliver better services with less tax taken. That is shown by Barnet,
:51:04. > :51:08.Hammersmith and Fulham and others. My council has taken a lot of
:51:09. > :51:13.services back in-house because it is cheaper, secondly what has been the
:51:14. > :51:19.effect on these councils on housing waiting lists and adult social
:51:20. > :51:25.care? It is the poorest people who suffer when this strategy is
:51:26. > :51:32.followed. That's not fair. We have taken recycling back in-house. Are
:51:33. > :51:38.you going to keep it after the election? Yes, we will take it in
:51:39. > :51:48.and week aim to run an efficient service which will save money in the
:51:49. > :51:53.next cycle. You haven't looked at what we have actually done. We have
:51:54. > :51:58.outsourced some, but you are believing the hype that come from
:51:59. > :52:05.those people at the meeting. They are residents of your borough, you
:52:06. > :52:15.should be more respectful. Thank you. It has been five years since
:52:16. > :52:19.the expenses scandal, but recently a Parliamentary committee found that
:52:20. > :52:26.MPs were struggling to cope with the restrictions imposed as a result of
:52:27. > :52:30.the scandal. In 2009 the UK was rocked by the expenses scandal. Over
:52:31. > :52:35.half of MPs were ordered to repay the money to the taxpayer. Dodgy
:52:36. > :52:40.dealings included overpaying for mortgages, having family members on
:52:41. > :52:46.the payroll, and charging the taxpayer for an ornamental doghouse.
:52:47. > :52:51.Three MPs resigned and five have been jailed. In the wake of the
:52:52. > :52:54.scandal, the independent Parliamentary standards authority
:52:55. > :53:02.was set up to sort out the mess, introducing regulation of expenses.
:53:03. > :53:05.Now that same body has launched a consultation on the new expenses
:53:06. > :53:09.system and this week MPs for a consultation on the new expenses
:53:10. > :53:12.system and this week MPs gave their penalised by the new rules. Reasons
:53:13. > :53:33.given included: Final decision on the issue rests
:53:34. > :53:39.with the new regulator, IPSA, but with considerable public anger over
:53:40. > :53:44.the 11% pay rise for MPs scheduled in 2015, any increase is likely to
:53:45. > :53:57.cause a stir. Mark Littlewood is here from the think tank. Our London
:53:58. > :54:02.MPs short-changed? No, this is special pleading, and I would think
:54:03. > :54:11.that people who commute in from many miles away, my father commuted in a
:54:12. > :54:18.three-hour return journey every day and he never complained about it.
:54:19. > :54:22.Staff costs, office costs, those expenses are probably not taken
:54:23. > :54:31.account of, are they? There is already London weighting for London
:54:32. > :54:35.MPs and I think they can stuff their offices cheaply. There are loads of
:54:36. > :54:41.young people who want their first step on the career ladder. I'm sure
:54:42. > :54:48.your guests could confirm. Very bright people on modest salaries who
:54:49. > :54:54.want to get in. Do you think that is right? It is perfectly acceptable, I
:54:55. > :54:58.don't have a problem with that. The part I find shocking is that MPs
:54:59. > :55:04.should be paid differently in London because of the peculiar and
:55:05. > :55:08.difficult issues London MPs face. We cannot set salaries are lances based
:55:09. > :55:13.on some social metric of each constituency and I would have
:55:14. > :55:20.thought it is harder to say to a member of Parliament for Northern
:55:21. > :55:25.Ireland than it is for, say, the Member of Parliament for London.
:55:26. > :55:30.What do you think? They don't need hotels, they can commute, but we are
:55:31. > :55:35.plagued with this idea that we can always reduce wages and costs,
:55:36. > :55:38.bringing in unpaid interns, which ends up with the children of the
:55:39. > :55:44.wealthy get on the career ladder because they can afford to work for
:55:45. > :55:50.nothing. Also, please be aware of this, if you represent inner London
:55:51. > :55:55.constituency, there is a massive amount of casework, social
:55:56. > :55:59.tensions, housing problems. I am inundated with casework all the
:56:00. > :56:13.time, my staff work incredibly hard doing it, but it does cost. If you
:56:14. > :56:18.are rural MP in a rural constituency you could argue you need more staff
:56:19. > :56:24.costs to cover multiple offices in different parts of a large rural
:56:25. > :56:29.constituency. The point though is that the stuff budget for MPs in the
:56:30. > :56:34.eight years I have been a member of Parliament has doubled. The London
:56:35. > :56:38.part of that budget has quadrupled in that time. I don't think the
:56:39. > :56:43.London MPs on the staff budget side are hard done by, in fact slightly
:56:44. > :56:50.the opposite. Would you pay anyone here a bit more money? How you set
:56:51. > :56:55.MPs' salaries is fiendishly difficult. They got in trouble for
:56:56. > :57:00.it when they voted for it themselves, now we have the
:57:01. > :57:05.independent authority. I don't know how we can try to make MPs' salaries
:57:06. > :57:12.more performance related, but in general terms it strikes me with the
:57:13. > :57:16.salary of the MP being around ?68,000 per annum, that does seem to
:57:17. > :57:24.attract a lot of people to vacancies. If either of these were
:57:25. > :57:30.to step down, there would be hundreds of applicants at this level
:57:31. > :57:34.of salary. I don't think most people go into politics for the money. I am
:57:35. > :57:40.against the pay rise for MPs and I hope it doesn't happen because MPs
:57:41. > :57:45.have voted for a pay freeze for the rest of the sector and should have
:57:46. > :57:53.won themselves. Now it is time for the rest of the political news in 60
:57:54. > :57:57.seconds. An extra 65 million journeys in London could be made
:57:58. > :58:02.using three Crossrail stations annually by 2026, revised figures
:58:03. > :58:06.show. The report looked at Tottenham Court Road, Bond Street and
:58:07. > :58:10.Farringdon stations and found population growth has outstripped
:58:11. > :58:15.the original estimate. The Supreme Court has rejected a legal bid by
:58:16. > :58:19.objectors to the HS2 to force further scrutiny of the plans of the
:58:20. > :58:22.Government. The challenge focused on whether the Government follow the
:58:23. > :58:28.rules when it assessed environmental impact. A group of nine retired
:58:29. > :58:32.constituents in Croydon South were met by two officers and a police car
:58:33. > :58:36.when they tried to deliver a petition to their local MP. Richard
:58:37. > :58:40.Ottaway called for police protection and only the leader of the group was
:58:41. > :58:44.allowed into the constituency office. The London assembly report
:58:45. > :58:48.showed crime in London has fallen significantly less than in the rest
:58:49. > :58:57.of the country over the last decade, rates have fallen by 38% nationally
:58:58. > :59:01.but just 27% in London. Greg, how can that be that police performance,
:59:02. > :59:08.relatively to other parts of the country, isn't as good? Crying in
:59:09. > :59:11.London is falling very rapidly, in fact crime in Hammersmith and Fulham
:59:12. > :59:23.where I represent is at the lowest it has ever been. -- crime in
:59:24. > :59:29.London. Figures were down 50% in the last decade. The fact remains crime
:59:30. > :59:35.is falling in London, it is now at a record low in my area is that is
:59:36. > :59:39.good news for local people. There is a population rise going on, and
:59:40. > :59:45.obviously one has to recognise the good work done by local community
:59:46. > :59:49.policing in trying to bring about a safer and more secure society.
:59:50. > :59:54.Obviously nobody wants crime to rise but there are a lot of social
:59:55. > :59:58.reasons why it is at the level it is in London and I think we need to
:59:59. > :00:03.address issues of violent crime, address issues of numbers of young
:00:04. > :00:09.people that don't have enough to do. The final word, not some of the
:00:10. > :00:12.turmoil perhaps with afflicting the Metropolitan police over the last
:00:13. > :00:19.few years affecting their effectiveness? No, I think the Met
:00:20. > :00:24.has been very effective. I see them in my constituency being affected
:00:25. > :00:28.and today I had a chat with the Mets about the record low in my
:00:29. > :00:42.constituency, very pleased. Andrew, back to you.
:00:43. > :00:45.UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this
:00:46. > :00:49.week he's been outdoing himself. He was hit over the head with a placard
:00:50. > :00:51.by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with
:00:52. > :00:59.children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning
:01:00. > :01:02.handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's
:01:03. > :01:06.own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story
:01:07. > :01:10.that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that
:01:11. > :01:14.flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a
:01:15. > :01:23.moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all
:01:24. > :01:26.areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."
:01:27. > :01:32.You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip
:01:33. > :01:38.councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill. The
:01:39. > :01:44.old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though
:01:45. > :01:50.he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How
:01:51. > :01:58.quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are
:01:59. > :02:04.occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour
:02:05. > :02:09.councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,
:02:10. > :02:17.and said his real mother was a 9 foot green alien. And in Wales a
:02:18. > :02:26.councillor thinking about heading off for the
:02:27. > :02:34.slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after
:02:35. > :02:40.Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.
:02:41. > :02:45.Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for
:02:46. > :02:50.hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising
:02:51. > :02:57.ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise
:02:58. > :03:02.light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no
:03:03. > :03:07.chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the
:03:08. > :03:11.Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that
:03:12. > :03:16.had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it
:03:17. > :03:22.is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,
:03:23. > :03:27.that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an
:03:28. > :03:33.excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It
:03:34. > :03:37.shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.
:03:38. > :03:42.Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The
:03:43. > :03:45.establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a
:03:46. > :03:52.waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of
:03:53. > :03:57.person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage
:03:58. > :04:00.on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they
:04:01. > :04:04.flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest
:04:05. > :04:11.set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any
:04:12. > :04:16.other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any
:04:17. > :04:22.other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a
:04:23. > :04:25.time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States, now
:04:26. > :04:30.almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would
:04:31. > :04:40.be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital
:04:41. > :04:45.foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why
:04:46. > :04:49.people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have
:04:50. > :04:55.handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual
:04:56. > :05:02.phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying
:05:03. > :05:07.it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious
:05:08. > :05:10.manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this
:05:11. > :05:17.image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep
:05:18. > :05:21.waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to
:05:22. > :05:28.UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if
:05:29. > :05:33.you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party, the
:05:34. > :05:39.rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to
:05:40. > :05:43.you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more
:05:44. > :05:49.authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish
:05:50. > :05:54.second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the
:05:55. > :05:57.poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as
:05:58. > :06:01.Labour versus the Conservatives. The electorate will have their fun in
:06:02. > :06:08.May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection
:06:09. > :06:16.is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the
:06:17. > :06:20.Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham
:06:21. > :06:25.Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules
:06:26. > :06:29.well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr
:06:30. > :06:36.Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David
:06:37. > :06:41.Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is
:06:42. > :06:46.the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of
:06:47. > :06:53.the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting
:06:54. > :07:05.the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I
:07:06. > :07:14.like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland.
:07:15. > :07:18.I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the
:07:19. > :07:24.phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted
:07:25. > :07:28.to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on
:07:29. > :07:32.the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't
:07:33. > :07:35.dispute anything we said on the show.
:07:36. > :07:38.Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central
:07:39. > :07:41.priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the
:07:42. > :07:44.lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well,
:07:45. > :07:47.tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious
:07:48. > :07:54.programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The
:07:55. > :08:00.Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy.
:08:01. > :08:05.That's why we are announcing a ?23 billion package for 165,000 new
:08:06. > :08:10.affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing
:08:11. > :08:15.associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway
:08:16. > :08:19.through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already
:08:20. > :08:26.coming out of the ground, so we've made real progress on that. So,
:08:27. > :08:31.165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words.
:08:32. > :08:35.Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's
:08:36. > :08:41.commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The
:08:42. > :08:46.problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already
:08:47. > :08:48.have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning
:08:49. > :08:53.regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond
:08:54. > :08:58.Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral.
:08:59. > :09:03.That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think
:09:04. > :09:11.we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's
:09:12. > :09:15.dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,
:09:16. > :09:20.which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George
:09:21. > :09:25.Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the
:09:26. > :09:31.Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen
:09:32. > :09:37.to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do
:09:38. > :09:41.radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can
:09:42. > :09:44.tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken
:09:45. > :09:48.place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk
:09:49. > :09:53.about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities
:09:54. > :09:57.argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to
:09:58. > :10:00.agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they
:10:01. > :10:06.are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of
:10:07. > :10:11.what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are
:10:12. > :10:17.already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing
:10:18. > :10:20.stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if
:10:21. > :10:25.you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning
:10:26. > :10:29.promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard
:10:30. > :10:34.place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is
:10:35. > :10:39.growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake
:10:40. > :10:42.Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If
:10:43. > :10:47.that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower
:10:48. > :10:53.Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of
:10:54. > :10:57.dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected
:10:58. > :11:03.by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young
:11:04. > :11:08.Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the
:11:09. > :11:12.garden cities project is interesting, because they finance
:11:13. > :11:17.themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million
:11:18. > :11:23.an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the
:11:24. > :11:29.greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities
:11:30. > :11:34.today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've
:11:35. > :11:38.read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and
:11:39. > :11:42.they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing
:11:43. > :11:47.theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist
:11:48. > :11:52.interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.
:11:53. > :11:57.Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put
:11:58. > :12:02.on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big
:12:03. > :12:07.split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular
:12:08. > :12:11.policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say
:12:12. > :12:15.50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the
:12:16. > :12:19.Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular
:12:20. > :12:24.but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract
:12:25. > :12:27.active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into
:12:28. > :12:32.power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.
:12:33. > :12:36.The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do
:12:37. > :12:40.that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls
:12:41. > :12:46.would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the
:12:47. > :12:51.key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and
:12:52. > :12:55.how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more
:12:56. > :12:59.than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk
:13:00. > :13:04.about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of
:13:05. > :13:07.Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education
:13:08. > :13:11.Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting
:13:12. > :13:15.blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind
:13:16. > :13:19.the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think
:13:20. > :13:24.we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you
:13:25. > :13:27.are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on
:13:28. > :13:31.today. That's all for today. Thanks to all
:13:32. > :13:34.my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two,
:13:35. > :13:36.and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:37. > :14:14.Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers,
:14:15. > :14:22.is now at war with Germany This would be the first
:14:23. > :14:32.truly modern war. and resolve of entire populations
:14:33. > :14:37.against each other.