:00:37. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:43. > :00:46.him beat his brother to the top. Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:47. > :00:50.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:51. > :00:52.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:53. > :00:57.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:58. > :01:01.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:02. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:07.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:08. > :01:10.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:11. > :01:14.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:15. > :01:18.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:19. > :01:27.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:28. > :01:30.traffic and travel report. Dutch UKIP manifestoes are causing major
:01:31. > :01:32.tailbacks across the South, apparently stretching all the way to
:01:33. > :01:35.Brussels. In London: The Met Police look set
:01:36. > :01:37.for a big roll-out of officers wearing cameras.
:01:38. > :01:48.Will it provide the kind of reassurance people want?
:01:49. > :01:51.Yes, all that and more in today's action-packed Sunday Politics. And
:01:52. > :01:57.blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt
:01:58. > :02:00.and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate
:02:01. > :02:03.selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the
:02:04. > :02:06.relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve
:02:07. > :02:12.union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour
:02:13. > :02:17.leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But
:02:18. > :02:19.the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the
:02:20. > :02:24.party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the
:02:25. > :02:33.election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,
:02:34. > :02:37.speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st
:02:38. > :02:40.conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the
:02:41. > :02:46.leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have
:02:47. > :02:50.implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already
:02:51. > :02:53.a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,
:02:54. > :03:02.general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and
:03:03. > :03:09.Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4
:03:10. > :03:14.moment? I don't know about that. It is certainly a bold move,
:03:15. > :03:18.particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the
:03:19. > :03:24.system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that
:03:25. > :03:29.has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote
:03:30. > :03:37.situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are
:03:38. > :03:41.upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is
:03:42. > :03:50.nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members. So
:03:51. > :04:00.the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is
:04:01. > :04:04.currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to
:04:05. > :04:09.declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to
:04:10. > :04:15.that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the
:04:16. > :04:20.last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,
:04:21. > :04:27.and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is
:04:28. > :04:31.organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is
:04:32. > :04:38.that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have
:04:39. > :04:42.really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people
:04:43. > :04:48.automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only
:04:49. > :04:53.10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual
:04:54. > :05:00.members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So
:05:01. > :05:04.union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence
:05:05. > :05:10.on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are
:05:11. > :05:15.individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is
:05:16. > :05:21.lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an
:05:22. > :05:25.individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and
:05:26. > :05:30.union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes
:05:31. > :05:38.by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this
:05:39. > :05:42.electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far,
:05:43. > :05:50.they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems
:05:51. > :05:52.there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have
:05:53. > :05:56.to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If
:05:57. > :06:03.they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask
:06:04. > :06:06.union members to support that an individual basis the next five
:06:07. > :06:11.years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a
:06:12. > :06:16.third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the
:06:17. > :06:19.union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go
:06:20. > :06:23.further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating
:06:24. > :06:29.in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that
:06:30. > :06:31.at a third stage. So the implications in terms of
:06:32. > :06:39.constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3
:06:40. > :06:42.million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the
:06:43. > :06:49.unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation
:06:50. > :06:52.fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep
:06:53. > :07:01.that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money
:07:02. > :07:04.themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to
:07:05. > :07:09.Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.
:07:10. > :07:13.Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the
:07:14. > :07:18.political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to
:07:19. > :07:24.participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for
:07:25. > :07:32.those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a
:07:33. > :07:38.lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few
:07:39. > :07:44.years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour
:07:45. > :07:49.are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour
:07:50. > :08:04.Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me
:08:05. > :08:06.kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of
:08:07. > :08:10.money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one
:08:11. > :08:14.time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour
:08:15. > :08:20.election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the
:08:21. > :08:29.Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to
:08:30. > :08:33.justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the
:08:34. > :08:37.political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice
:08:38. > :08:41.campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I
:08:42. > :08:43.don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to
:08:44. > :08:50.fight for their members. That is our fight for their members. That is our
:08:51. > :08:54.job. So you will still be a major part of the bankroll of the Labour
:08:55. > :08:59.campaign. You will still have 50% of the votes at a Labour conference,
:09:00. > :09:03.and you will still have a major part in the Labour National executive
:09:04. > :09:06.committee and the policy committee. It is right to say the unions are
:09:07. > :09:16.still at the heart of Labour, are they not? Well, if you sick to break
:09:17. > :09:21.the affiliated link between trade unions and the Labour Party, the
:09:22. > :09:24.whole thing collapses. That is what anchors the Labour Party as far as
:09:25. > :09:28.we are concerned. Many of our members think that when they want to
:09:29. > :09:32.look for ferrochrome and rights, social justice, housing and the
:09:33. > :09:37.health service, Labour are better it quipped to deliver that for working
:09:38. > :09:39.people than the current parties. That is why we have traditionally
:09:40. > :09:45.supported them. But not at all of our members support Labour, which is
:09:46. > :09:51.why we don't affiliate all of them to Labour. There are over 30 million
:09:52. > :10:02.people in the British labour force now. Union membership is only 6.5
:10:03. > :10:07.million out of that 30. A 6.5% of that do not vote Labour, they vote
:10:08. > :10:13.Tory or liberal or nationalist in Scotland. So you are a relatively
:10:14. > :10:18.small pressure group. Why should Labour be in thrall to you? We are
:10:19. > :10:25.the biggest voluntary organisation in this country. Sorry about that,
:10:26. > :10:29.but that is the fact. People make conscious choices. My own union, the
:10:30. > :10:35.GMB, has been growing for eight years. So this dying picture you are
:10:36. > :10:39.trying to paint... In terms of accounting for the fact that some do
:10:40. > :10:46.not support Labour, that is why unions do not affiliate all of their
:10:47. > :10:49.members to the Labour Party. We have adjusted to that. If you don't like
:10:50. > :10:57.being called Neil, I don't like being called a barren either. What
:10:58. > :11:02.about Mr Baron? I don't like that either. We are representatives of
:11:03. > :11:05.working organisations. It may be inconvenient for politicians to have
:11:06. > :11:11.to listen to working people, but we will continue to press. Lord Baron,
:11:12. > :11:18.thank you very much. So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed
:11:19. > :11:22.Miliband? Not really, but to his credit, he is going ahead with this.
:11:23. > :11:26.There was a point at which it looked as though Ed Miliband would back
:11:27. > :11:31.away from reform. To his credit, he is trying to create a mass
:11:32. > :11:34.membership party again. But when it comes to the crucial business of
:11:35. > :11:38.funding a general election campaign, these reforms will make Labour more
:11:39. > :11:45.reliant on large donations from trade unions. They could have more
:11:46. > :11:48.power now, because they get to hold back this money, whereas beforehand,
:11:49. > :11:54.they had to hand it over automatically. As Mr Kenny just
:11:55. > :12:01.said, how much they handover will be dependent on good behaviour. Yes,
:12:02. > :12:05.but these are pragmatic reforms. The fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of
:12:06. > :12:09.capital in not being seen as a Blairite has helped him get these
:12:10. > :12:13.through . The response has been muted, which suggests good party
:12:14. > :12:17.management on his behalf. That may be because they will still have 50%
:12:18. > :12:21.of the votes at a party conference. Mr Kenny was clear that that could
:12:22. > :12:24.be deal-breaker if they tried to take that away. They have more
:12:25. > :12:32.places at the NEC than anyone else, and party members, if only 10% of
:12:33. > :12:36.them signed up, they will outweigh individual members in the
:12:37. > :12:40.constituencies. It was interesting, how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was
:12:41. > :12:43.taking thousands of pounds from the Labour Party a few months ago
:12:44. > :12:47.because he was annoyed about these reforms, and now he is relaxed
:12:48. > :12:51.because they still have 50% of the vote at Labour Party conference and
:12:52. > :12:55.Labour Party Parliamentary candidates are still selected in the
:12:56. > :12:59.same way. But there is a simple point here. Yes, you can pick apart
:13:00. > :13:02.what Ed Miliband said and said the unions have too much influence, but
:13:03. > :13:07.the only way he could have gone all the way was to break the link with
:13:08. > :13:11.the trade unions, and he was not going to do that. It was not the
:13:12. > :13:15.Labour Party that founded the unions, it was the unions that
:13:16. > :13:22.founded the Labour Party. Even Tony Blair did not break the link. In
:13:23. > :13:27.that context, Ed Miliband has gone incredibly far. For the last 50
:13:28. > :13:30.years, this opting into the union, you have to turn to page 50 of your
:13:31. > :13:35.union terms and conditions to say, do you want to opt out of the
:13:36. > :13:41.political levy 's that is going to go, which will mean that when the
:13:42. > :13:45.next Labour leader is elected from the union votes, they will get their
:13:46. > :13:50.ballot from the Labour Party and you will append the fast where ballots
:13:51. > :13:53.went out from Unison macro and GMB with a picture of Ed Miliband on the
:13:54. > :13:58.front of the ballot paper saying, vote for aid. They were Stasi and
:13:59. > :14:05.Saddam Hussein ways of trade union members electing the Labour leader,
:14:06. > :14:07.which will go. I am sorry his Lordship is not still here to answer
:14:08. > :14:12.that question. HMS Coalition is not a happy ship.
:14:13. > :14:16.The lovey-dovey days in the rose garden are long gone. It is not a
:14:17. > :14:19.loveless marriage, perhaps even an open one. The latest split is over
:14:20. > :14:22.the decision by Education Secretary Michael Gove to replace Labour peer
:14:23. > :14:25.Sally Morgan as head of the schools inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's
:14:26. > :14:28.deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said to be spitting blood about her
:14:29. > :14:35.removal, although only through surrogates. He has not said a word
:14:36. > :14:46.on the record. Here was the Education Secretary a little
:14:47. > :14:49.earlier. If there is another opportunity for Sally to serve in a
:14:50. > :14:54.different role at a different time, then I would be delighted to support
:14:55. > :14:58.her in the role which she thinks it is appropriate to do. There is
:14:59. > :15:02.nothing wrong with Sally but there is a principle across government
:15:03. > :15:07.that there should be no automatic reappointment, and that after three
:15:08. > :15:12.or four years, it is appropriate to bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That
:15:13. > :15:18.is good corporate practice in order to ensure that you refresh boards,
:15:19. > :15:24.bring a new perspective, and have tough questions asked. We're joined
:15:25. > :15:27.now by the newly elected deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats,
:15:28. > :15:32.Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:15:33. > :15:38.David Laws is said to be furious with Michael Gove, is he? I think he
:15:39. > :15:43.is because Sally Morgan has been doing a good job and that has been
:15:44. > :15:47.generally agreed across the whole spectrum. I think Ofsted is an
:15:48. > :15:52.impartial body that inspects all schools and it shouldn't be subject
:15:53. > :15:57.to some kind of political direction. That is the concern, that she is
:15:58. > :16:00.being removed when she was doing a good job and most people thought she
:16:01. > :16:13.should be reappointed. It is strongly rumoured her successor will
:16:14. > :16:19.be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why hasn't David Laws said this himself,
:16:20. > :16:25.have you spoken to him? I have, and I know he is not very pleased about
:16:26. > :16:29.it but he will want to speak to Michael Gove himself when he gets to
:16:30. > :16:34.see him on Monday. The question you have to take on board is that David
:16:35. > :16:39.Laws is the schools minister, effectively the one who has
:16:40. > :16:43.engagement with Ofsted, and he is seeing it being undermined by the
:16:44. > :16:48.Secretary of State. There is a question that if Michael Gove is so
:16:49. > :16:53.pleased with Sally Morgan why is he replacing her, and who will he be
:16:54. > :16:57.replacing her with, and on what basis? Maybe parliament should have
:16:58. > :17:01.a confirmation hearing so that we can be assured that whoever is put
:17:02. > :17:10.in charge is there because they are good at it. Why has he licensed his
:17:11. > :17:16.surrogates to save this rather than saying it himself? He didn't, he
:17:17. > :17:23.knew I was on the programme this morning so I am giving you the
:17:24. > :17:29.answers as best I can. David is perfectly capable of speaking for
:17:30. > :17:34.himself. He hasn't so far. You asked me to come on this programme and
:17:35. > :17:38.David was anxious for me to know he wasn't happy about it, and I can
:17:39. > :17:43.certainly tell you that. I can also give you my own opinion which is
:17:44. > :17:51.that Ofsted is not the Department for Education, it is an independent
:17:52. > :17:55.body. The question you have to ask is will Michael Gove but someone in
:17:56. > :18:01.charge of Ofsted who will have a political agenda? If so, that is not
:18:02. > :18:07.what Ofsted should be used for. Let's move on to your own position.
:18:08. > :18:19.You are 69, white male, middle-class, what is your answer to
:18:20. > :18:23.the party with diversity problems? I don't think that is what they voted
:18:24. > :18:26.on. They felt I had a wealth of experience that would be vulnerable
:18:27. > :18:30.to the party from the period now until the election, not least
:18:31. > :18:36.because the central issues that will concern voters are the economy, and
:18:37. > :18:43.I have a track record of promoting the party's economic policy over
:18:44. > :18:47.many years. But you are not even standing at the next election. No,
:18:48. > :18:59.but we need to get to the next election and my colleagues have
:19:00. > :19:02.confidence that I can do a useful job for the party in that situation.
:19:03. > :19:05.We have developed and delivered policies that I have helped to shape
:19:06. > :19:07.and I want to persuade people to understand the Liberal Democrats
:19:08. > :19:11.have made a fundamental difference to the economic recovery. But you
:19:12. > :19:15.know what has been happening with the Liberal Democrats and their
:19:16. > :19:22.problems with women. Wasn't this a chance to select a woman in a major
:19:23. > :19:31.part? You only have seven female MPs out of 57, not a single Lib Dem
:19:32. > :19:35.woman in the Parliament. Again, why you rather than making a break and
:19:36. > :19:42.bringing someone in onto major positions? My colleagues have
:19:43. > :19:47.concluded that the role I am best qualified to do it, that is why they
:19:48. > :19:53.voted for me. We do only have seven women and that is an issue we need
:19:54. > :20:04.to address. Two of those women are ministers, one is a government whip.
:20:05. > :20:09.We seem to have lost our line to Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was
:20:10. > :20:16.in full flight defending his position. I'm not sure if we can get
:20:17. > :20:22.the line back, just bear with me for a few seconds to see if we can get
:20:23. > :20:26.it. It looks as if we have lost Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to
:20:27. > :20:34.Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that we were not able to continue that
:20:35. > :20:37.interview. Fierce winds, torrential rain and a
:20:38. > :20:40.tidal surge have brought more misery to thousands. Official records show
:20:41. > :20:43.that southern England has seen the wettest January since records began
:20:44. > :20:46.in 1767. I remember it well. The Somerset Levels have been hit by
:20:47. > :20:51.weeks of flooding, with little respite from relentless rain. And,
:20:52. > :20:57.the residents of one village on the Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off
:20:58. > :21:12.for almost a month. We sent our Adam out with his wellies and a properly
:21:13. > :21:20.filled out risk assessment form. The very wet road to Muchelney. This
:21:21. > :21:24.village of about 100 residents has been cut off for about four weeks,
:21:25. > :21:33.and like the weather vane, it feels a little bit spooky. It came up to
:21:34. > :21:38.here and your front door was there. Anita is just relieved the water
:21:39. > :21:44.stopped here, practically on her doorstep. Now it is the
:21:45. > :21:51.practicalities that are the problem. Driving around for food is quite a
:21:52. > :21:55.hassle. You are foraging. It's not as bad as that but we do have a few
:21:56. > :22:00.bits in the vegetable garden still, and we had some nice apples until
:22:01. > :22:08.the rats ate them but we are not doing too badly on that score. It
:22:09. > :22:14.sounds like the medieval! That's what it feels like. Talking of
:22:15. > :22:23.retro, who knew Somerset still had a Coleman, this is Brian's first
:22:24. > :22:26.delivery since Christmas. Everything has gone old-fashioned. We are now
:22:27. > :22:32.talking to neighbours we might never have seen before or spoken to so we
:22:33. > :22:38.are getting to know more people in the village. She's right, there has
:22:39. > :22:41.been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit, quite literally. The council and the
:22:42. > :22:51.Fire Brigade have put on this boat service to get people to work and
:22:52. > :22:59.school. The church has become an unofficial flood HQ. This is where
:23:00. > :23:04.people pick up their mail, and this is where the people who run the boat
:23:05. > :23:10.stopped for their tea breaks. It all seems quite jolly, if a bit boring,
:23:11. > :23:16.but it is no fun for the homes and businesses that have been inundated,
:23:17. > :23:21.or for the farmers whose land is underwater, an area the size of
:23:22. > :23:25.Bristol, or for the villages which are less isolated but where the
:23:26. > :23:30.flooding is worse. People like the parish chairman are starting to get
:23:31. > :23:35.angry with how the Government has responded. It was all a bit late. We
:23:36. > :23:41.knew what was going to happen with the amount of rain on the fields and
:23:42. > :23:44.the Government was so slow to react. The county council got the
:23:45. > :23:49.boat going quickly but it was another four weeks nearly before the
:23:50. > :23:55.button was pressed for the major incident. Right on cue, the cavalry
:23:56. > :24:00.arrived in the shape of emergency crews from other parts of the UK.
:24:01. > :24:03.The rumour is that they will bring in a hovercraft but the bad news is
:24:04. > :24:10.that the weather is becoming more grim this weekend. There has been a
:24:11. > :24:14.surge in bookings at the campsite where people have seen the Somerset
:24:15. > :24:22.Levels on holiday and would like to come on holiday, if it ever stops
:24:23. > :24:27.raining. I'm delighted to say we have got the line back to Aberdeen,
:24:28. > :24:31.somebody has put a shilling in the meter. We can go back to Malcolm
:24:32. > :24:36.Bruce. We were talking about the Lib Dem women and your election, I
:24:37. > :24:46.suppose the point some people are making is that your party has as
:24:47. > :24:51.many knights in Parliament as it has women and you are one of them. The
:24:52. > :24:57.good news is that for the five MPs who are standing down, who have had
:24:58. > :25:03.candidates elected in their constituencies so far, all five
:25:04. > :25:07.candidates that have been selected are women. We need to fight hard to
:25:08. > :25:11.get behind those women and get them elected so that we have a much
:25:12. > :25:15.better balanced parliament in the future, but given that we have few
:25:16. > :25:23.women, you really have to pick people appropriate for the job and
:25:24. > :25:40.we have appointed the women as I have said but we need our image to
:25:41. > :25:45.be balanced. How many women candidates will there be come the
:25:46. > :25:50.next election? At the moment, 12, five more than we have now, and we
:25:51. > :25:55.haven't finished selection. Where there are men sitting and standing
:25:56. > :25:59.again, that is not likely to change, but where they are standing down we
:26:00. > :26:06.are overwhelmingly choosing women, and in my view good and very able
:26:07. > :26:10.women. What I would want to say to people is that if you want to see
:26:11. > :26:21.the Lib Dems have more women, go to those seats and help us hold them.
:26:22. > :26:25.We are told that only 20% of the 57 seats have female candidates and in
:26:26. > :26:31.the unlikely event that you were able to hold onto them all, it still
:26:32. > :26:39.wouldn't be a sea change to have 20%. The point is you have to build
:26:40. > :26:44.them up. We are supporting female candidates. These are really good
:26:45. > :26:48.candidates who will make first-class MPs and I certainly believe you will
:26:49. > :26:54.gradually see the Liberal Democrats taking them on. We don't have 300
:26:55. > :27:01.seats that we currently hold like other parties, but what I can tell
:27:02. > :27:06.you is that increasing -- increasingly we will have female
:27:07. > :27:10.candidates. One newspaper has said that you will deal with the Chris
:27:11. > :27:15.Rennard fallout quickly and privately, what does that mean? It
:27:16. > :27:21.means I will not be telling you because these things are not helped
:27:22. > :27:24.by comments on the airwaves. I hope it will be possible to have a
:27:25. > :27:28.resolution without people going to court but I don't think it helps
:27:29. > :27:34.anybody for me to comment on any aspect of how this will be done and
:27:35. > :27:40.I'm not prepared to do so. If you are not in full possession of the
:27:41. > :27:46.facts, why did you say you will deal with this privately? I have come
:27:47. > :27:54.into this halfway through, I don't have full possession of the facts, I
:27:55. > :28:00.doubt you do, and we have a process that needs to be followed through.
:28:01. > :28:05.Any comments in public do not help. Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order
:28:06. > :28:11.to hear from a party that is constantly calling for transparency
:28:12. > :28:17.in other institutions but when it comes to your own, you say, I am not
:28:18. > :28:20.going to talk about it. There are all sorts of disputes that happen in
:28:21. > :28:25.the world and often people don't talk about them because talking
:28:26. > :28:29.about them aggravates the situation. I believe you have to
:28:30. > :28:33.deal with them privately and I don't think trial by media in this context
:28:34. > :28:37.is helpful and I don't believe that those who choose to make those
:28:38. > :28:43.comments are making it easier to solve them. There are problems in
:28:44. > :28:47.other walks of life and the Liberal Democrats are not the only ones with
:28:48. > :28:51.these problems. We are trying to change that culture and I think we
:28:52. > :28:57.will do it effectively in our own way. We have a pastoral care officer
:28:58. > :29:08.now and I think that is the right way to do it. Thank you for that.
:29:09. > :29:12.Let's now go back to the story of the flooding in Somerset. We are
:29:13. > :29:20.joined by the leader of the Green party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank.
:29:21. > :29:28.Natalie Bennett, don't the Green party bears some responsibility for
:29:29. > :29:32.these floods? You have sided with the Environment Agency in the
:29:33. > :29:38.decision not to dredge rivers and that is one of the reason why these
:29:39. > :29:45.places have been flooded. Firstly I want to give my sympathy to everyone
:29:46. > :29:52.dealing with these floods. The homeowners, the farmers seeing
:29:53. > :29:57.sodden fields for weeks and weeks. We get that, we all have huge
:29:58. > :30:02.sympathy, particularly because so little seems to be done to help
:30:03. > :30:06.them. What is the answer to my question? I think there is strong
:30:07. > :30:12.evidence that dredging is not the answer. If you think about the flow
:30:13. > :30:18.of the river, where the pinch points are is things like bridges, weirs
:30:19. > :30:22.and towns. If you dredge the river in between those barriers, you just
:30:23. > :30:28.make the water faster to those points. The experts are saying that
:30:29. > :30:32.dredging is not the answer, it may be in particular cases, but you have
:30:33. > :30:35.to look at each river system on its own merits and very often the best
:30:36. > :30:39.way of dealing with this is working out ways to slow the watered down
:30:40. > :30:47.and make sure that people don't suffer unduly while you are doing
:30:48. > :30:51.that. The west of England agricultural Society, which I would
:30:52. > :30:55.venture knows more about the Somerset Levels than either of us,
:30:56. > :30:59.has said that without dredging, this was a disaster waiting to happen.
:31:00. > :31:03.The local drainage boards have been calling for years for dredging to be
:31:04. > :31:08.resumed. The National Farmers' Union has called for it, and the chairman
:31:09. > :31:11.of the West Sussex flood defences has called for more drainage, and he
:31:12. > :31:15.is a drainage engineer by profession. So I don't know where
:31:16. > :31:23.your experts are, but the experts on the ground am not the urban ones in
:31:24. > :31:26.London, seem to think this has not been caused, but made worse by the
:31:27. > :31:31.failure of the Environment Agency to continue to dredge. If you look at
:31:32. > :31:35.the example of the planning and climate change coalition, which is
:31:36. > :31:39.led by the town and country planning Association, who you would not
:31:40. > :31:42.describe as a group of radical greens, these people have said we
:31:43. > :31:48.have to look at how we deal with flooding in the future. But not in
:31:49. > :31:50.Somerset. These are the people currently being flooded, not
:31:51. > :31:56.somebody sitting in a quango office in London. They have asked for this
:31:57. > :31:59.to happen and it hasn't, and they are now flooded in definitely. We
:32:00. > :32:04.have to look at what is happening on a case-by-case basis. If you look at
:32:05. > :32:09.Germany, there are many cases there were, to deal with flooding, many
:32:10. > :32:13.farmers are paid to hold water on their land. Maybe we need to
:32:14. > :32:18.introduce those systems, because we have to protect farmland, but we
:32:19. > :32:26.also have to protect urban areas for safety. We saw a horrible flood in
:32:27. > :32:32.Wales were lines were endangered -- where lives were endangered. That is
:32:33. > :32:36.the priority, to protect lives, property and farmland. Lives are
:32:37. > :32:40.endangered at the moment, particularly as this stagnant water
:32:41. > :32:44.turns toxic. And yet we are in a situation, again encouraged by the
:32:45. > :32:47.Greens and the lobbying Environment Agency, it says it does not want to
:32:48. > :32:53.dredge because dredging is expensive, yet it spends millions on
:32:54. > :32:57.a bird sanctuary. That is getting everything totally wrong. The
:32:58. > :33:02.government is getting everything one by cutting on flood defences. It has
:33:03. > :33:11.not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I don't know the details of that. But
:33:12. > :33:17.looking at the broader issue, we have to prepare for climate change.
:33:18. > :33:19.The government has slashed funding to the Environment Agency and has
:33:20. > :33:23.cut back on the number of staff available to deal with it and has
:33:24. > :33:28.removed the requirement on local councils to plan for climate change.
:33:29. > :33:32.These are all gambling the future of our lives and property and the
:33:33. > :33:38.future of our environment. Hasn't the high watermark of greenery now
:33:39. > :33:42.gone well past? You don't come out of the Somerset Levels with any
:33:43. > :33:46.great reputation. The UK government is now going to start fracking as
:33:47. > :33:52.quickly as it can. Brussels is loosening the CO2 obligations for
:33:53. > :33:56.2030. The President of America is about to give the go-ahead to the
:33:57. > :34:01.keystone pipeline, a totemic issue for American greens, and your party
:34:02. > :34:07.is in a state of civil war in Brighton. It is over, isn't it?
:34:08. > :34:13.Absolutely not. We are seeing large amounts of extreme weather around
:34:14. > :34:18.the world. Any one event is whether, but we are seeing a lot of it and
:34:19. > :34:21.people are recognising that climate change is happening. If we are going
:34:22. > :34:26.to quote international experts, I can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN
:34:27. > :34:29.Secretary-General, not known as a radical green, and he said after the
:34:30. > :34:34.IPCC report came out that the heat is on and we must act. If you go to
:34:35. > :34:37.Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, again
:34:38. > :34:41.not a radical green, she was asked what kept her awake at night, and
:34:42. > :34:45.she said, we are not doing enough about climate change. So actually,
:34:46. > :34:48.people around the world are looking at what is happening around them are
:34:49. > :34:54.both people on the ground and people in high positions are saying we have
:34:55. > :34:59.to act on climate change. And in the case of Britain, that should
:35:00. > :35:03.absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry to interrupt, but I have evidence
:35:04. > :35:06.that you are planning a little career change. Don't go away. This
:35:07. > :35:12.is what happens when you let Nigel Farage present the weather. One
:35:13. > :35:15.thing leads to another and low and behold, the Sunday Politics now has
:35:16. > :35:23.a new traffic and travel reporter. Let's go back to Green Party leader,
:35:24. > :35:28.Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew. It is easy out that, so let's start
:35:29. > :35:33.with our airports. I am pleased to say that Heathrow's third runway,
:35:34. > :35:39.Boris Island and all short-haul flights are, just like our
:35:40. > :35:45.arguments, well grounded. We suggest making or alternative arrangements,
:35:46. > :35:49.like a re-nationalised rail network, although it would be a
:35:50. > :35:53.glaring omission if we did not admit that that plan is currently being
:35:54. > :35:57.delayed by Labour Party foot dragging. Speaking of trains, we are
:35:58. > :36:04.hearing that high-speed two may well be derailing, or at least getting
:36:05. > :36:07.bogged down in political fog. One viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to
:36:08. > :36:13.say he is completely lost. Thanks for the update, Ed. You are not
:36:14. > :36:20.alone among political commuters. Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes
:36:21. > :36:24.are causing major tailbacks across the South, apparently stretching all
:36:25. > :36:30.the way to Brussels. This does make driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs
:36:31. > :36:38.can, of course, just hop on their gravy train. The tree had a
:36:39. > :36:45.roundabout is blocked after reports of a political earthquake. It seems
:36:46. > :36:49.that a green unwound his beard to block a dodgy gas extractor. A
:36:50. > :36:53.motorist who turned out to be the environment minister object into the
:36:54. > :36:58.delay and was told to frack off as furious badgers demanded that he
:36:59. > :37:03.stopped moving the goalposts. Unregulated traffic in the city of
:37:04. > :37:09.London continues unchecked. Pedestrians should try to block
:37:10. > :37:16.bankers with sacks of loot rushing for the payments. But do beware the
:37:17. > :37:21.Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up the motorways. Although they are in
:37:22. > :37:25.a jam, or is it a fudge, we are happy to make way for them, as, like
:37:26. > :37:33.all refugees, we say they are welcome here in muesli green. That
:37:34. > :37:37.is the travel. Back to you, Andrew. Natalie, I think you make my point.
:37:38. > :37:42.You are now preparing a new career in traffic and travel. Well, I do
:37:43. > :37:46.believe in lifelong education and that was an example of it. We know
:37:47. > :37:55.you have had a tough time today to get to our studio. Thank you for the
:37:56. > :37:58.effort. You are watching the Sunday
:37:59. > :38:01.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we will have more from our
:38:02. > :38:15.political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics from across the UK.
:38:16. > :38:19.Hello and welcome from us. This week in the capital, we have learned that
:38:20. > :38:22.there is said to be a big roll-out of body worn cameras in London's
:38:23. > :38:26.police force. Can it provide reassurance for the public and
:38:27. > :38:30.police officers alike? Discussing that later and anything
:38:31. > :38:34.else we can come up with will be Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney
:38:35. > :38:39.North and Stoke Newington, and Mary MacLeod, Conservative MP for
:38:40. > :38:45.Brentford and Isleworth. Let's start with research by a think-tank,
:38:46. > :38:49.Centre for Cities, which found that 80% of the investment there has been
:38:50. > :38:55.and creation of jobs in the country has been in London. Young people
:38:56. > :38:58.graduating elsewhere in the country are coming to London. Mary Macleod,
:38:59. > :39:04.do you fear that London is sucking the life out of the rest of the
:39:05. > :39:08.country? I love London. I was born in London and have worked my whole
:39:09. > :39:12.life here. I think cities will be the centre for growth, but much of
:39:13. > :39:18.what happens in London also has a positive effect elsewhere. Three
:39:19. > :39:23.fifths of contracts from London go to elsewhere in the country. So
:39:24. > :39:26.there is no harm in London being that, and a lot of people will want
:39:27. > :39:31.to come to London in search of jobs. But we need to think about the
:39:32. > :39:36.rest of the country. That is why I say, don't expand Heathrow, let's
:39:37. > :39:42.expand regional airports so that we bring jobs to other parts of the UK.
:39:43. > :39:48.But being a London MP, London is the most important city for me to look
:39:49. > :39:52.at how we develop London. Engine of the economy, or is it overheating?
:39:53. > :39:57.Are you worried about this sucking the life out of effect? People have
:39:58. > :40:00.been complaining about London dominated the life of the national
:40:01. > :40:04.economy since the 17th century. Of course people come here for jobs,
:40:05. > :40:09.but there are other reasons too. If you are in the old EU BT community,
:40:10. > :40:12.people come for freedom and the torrents that London has always
:40:13. > :40:17.shown. There are many reasons why London is a mecca for young people
:40:18. > :40:23.from all over the country. When we were in power, we did a lot to
:40:24. > :40:26.regenerate urban cities like Birmingham, Manchester and
:40:27. > :40:29.Newcastle. And in the age of the Internet, a lot of people are
:40:30. > :40:34.choosing to work in their regional centres because they can connect to
:40:35. > :40:38.people online. So it is inevitable? Not inevitable, but it has always
:40:39. > :40:44.been the case. London is an international city, like Paris and
:40:45. > :40:48.New York. In a sense, those three major capitals are almost like city
:40:49. > :40:54.states, and it has been like that from the 17th century. But we do
:40:55. > :40:57.want to help other cities as well. That is where we should be saying to
:40:58. > :41:03.the Chinese or doing business with India or Brazil, do come to other UK
:41:04. > :41:11.cities, because we want to regenerate those as well. London
:41:12. > :41:14.does not keep the wealth in London. If you take the tube, some of the
:41:15. > :41:20.contracts for that have gone elsewhere. Or if you look at some of
:41:21. > :41:25.the bicycle companies in my constituency, they do their
:41:26. > :41:29.paintwork in Wales. What about the idea that of a 50% tax rate, 30% of
:41:30. > :41:34.the people who would pay that are London's are you concerned that
:41:35. > :41:40.90,000 people would be more affected by that? The 50% tax rate is very
:41:41. > :41:46.popular. We are now ten points ahead in the polls. Does that make it
:41:47. > :41:50.right? It does, because everyone knows we are in a difficult
:41:51. > :41:55.financial situation. Whoever wins in 2015 will have to make further cuts.
:41:56. > :42:01.Londoners want to know the burden is being shared fairly. But the money
:42:02. > :42:04.is being raised in London and then exported to the rest of the country.
:42:05. > :42:09.There is no evidence that Londoners are opposed to 50p. It is about
:42:10. > :42:13.fairness and it is about people with the broadest shoulders wearing the
:42:14. > :42:18.burden. Londoners would be the first to get upset if they felt the
:42:19. > :42:21.poorest were bearing the burden of digging us out. They have stolen a
:42:22. > :42:33.march on you with 50p. I completely disagree. We bring in more income
:42:34. > :42:40.tax through 45p. Your point is ridiculous. You think it is
:42:41. > :42:45.ridiculous to care about fairness? It is about how much money you bring
:42:46. > :42:49.in. The minute you put the rate up, you bring in less money. We are
:42:50. > :42:53.taking people out of income tax altogether. In Hounslow, people care
:42:54. > :42:57.about fairness as well. Moving on, we understand that in a
:42:58. > :43:02.few weeks, a large number of London's police officers will be
:43:03. > :43:05.issued with cameras that they were on their uniform. There was much
:43:06. > :43:09.talk of this after the inquest into the death of Mark Duggan, and City
:43:10. > :43:12.Hall is keen to proceed. After a period of recent turbulence, it is
:43:13. > :43:17.seen as one way of reassuring the public and indeed detecting officers
:43:18. > :43:21.themselves. Police officers on the high street
:43:22. > :43:24.in Sutton, south-west London. For over a year, they have been equipped
:43:25. > :43:31.with body worn cameras, giving them the ability to film crime in high
:43:32. > :43:34.definition as and when it happens. They say that a picture paints a
:43:35. > :43:37.thousand words. When we are dealing with that incident, yes, officers
:43:38. > :43:42.can go back to the police station and make notes, but this captures
:43:43. > :43:45.the incidents we have to deal with. According to this pub manager, the
:43:46. > :43:50.technology has improved the high street. As soon as the camera comes
:43:51. > :43:55.on, you see attitudes change. The mayor saw the agreement in Sutton
:43:56. > :43:58.for himself in December. It is massively an official for the
:43:59. > :44:06.criminal justice system to have real-time evidence about what
:44:07. > :44:10.happens. City Hall sources told this programme that e-mail will be
:44:11. > :44:15.authorising the world's largest roll-out of Buddy worn cameras this
:44:16. > :44:19.spring. The way London is policed could change for ever. Details are
:44:20. > :44:22.thin on the ground, but there are already arguments about whether this
:44:23. > :44:27.technology should be used in the same way that it is at the moment in
:44:28. > :44:31.Sutton. Officers were these all the time, but they are not always
:44:32. > :44:34.recording. The Home Office only allows police to film when there is
:44:35. > :44:39.a specific incident. Then they just turn them on. But according to some,
:44:40. > :44:44.they should be on all the time and let the police interact with the
:44:45. > :44:48.public and not just for specific incidents. Leon Briggs was detained
:44:49. > :44:52.by police in Luton last year. He died in police custody. There are
:44:53. > :44:55.investigations ongoing by the independent police commissioner and
:44:56. > :44:59.a coroner into how it happened. His family said police body cameras
:45:00. > :45:08.would give them answers. Do not know why he died. I need to know. Leon's
:45:09. > :45:12.partner, at a meeting with police last year. Leon's friends, family
:45:13. > :45:17.and other campaigners are now campaigning for what they call
:45:18. > :45:20.Leon's law. Leon's law is about the simple proposition that all police
:45:21. > :45:23.officers in all interactions with the public will wear body worn
:45:24. > :45:30.cameras, and they will record during those interactions. Technology will
:45:31. > :45:33.start to hold the police to account. But it will not hold police to
:45:34. > :45:37.account if they have the discretion to switch the cameras off when they
:45:38. > :45:39.choose. Last week, Luton council passed a motion backing these
:45:40. > :45:50.proposals, saying the Home Office guidelines need to change. There
:45:51. > :45:54.should be abroad broader guidance to the police about these cameras
:45:55. > :46:00.because with the police in total control of when you turn it on and
:46:01. > :46:06.off, you might find there is a confrontation when the camera is not
:46:07. > :46:11.on. Exactly how the Mayor will do it, to what extent, and what lessons
:46:12. > :46:19.he might learn from Luton are not yet clear. When it is clarity we
:46:20. > :46:24.want, we turn to Steven greenhouse, good to see you. What is happening
:46:25. > :46:33.with the plans, when and how many officers? Versus a pilot that shows
:46:34. > :46:38.a lot of promise. I met some officers on the Isle of Wight who
:46:39. > :46:45.use cameras, and they said they'd put away their CS gas and use them
:46:46. > :46:51.because it seems to reduce confrontation, particularly in the
:46:52. > :46:56.night-time and with victims of domestic abuse, and in other
:46:57. > :47:07.interactions as well. Hopefully we will see a reduction in complaints
:47:08. > :47:15.about the police as well. What were the events in Sultan? Certainly
:47:16. > :47:22.domestic abuse and on the Isle of Wight as well, but we are producing
:47:23. > :47:27.the largest pilot in the world. Frankly, you have to use modern
:47:28. > :47:33.technology to move from the 19th century the whistle on the
:47:34. > :47:37.pocketbook. You are saying the largest pilot anywhere a police
:47:38. > :47:48.force has done, so what are the numbers? 500 cameras, around eight
:47:49. > :47:53.London boroughs, and within local policing, and the Commissioner has
:47:54. > :48:02.made a commitment around firearm officers that respond. So they will
:48:03. > :48:07.be in eight London boroughs, territorial policing, so when will
:48:08. > :48:13.this be done? Towards the end of March, and one of the London
:48:14. > :48:18.boroughs happens to be Hammersmith and Fulham. Where are we out with
:48:19. > :48:27.the firearms? We heard the Commissioner was committed to do
:48:28. > :48:33.that. We have the funding, and we will roll on the pilot until next
:48:34. > :48:38.year. We have to go through the approvals process, secure the
:48:39. > :48:45.equipment and begin the work of testing this out. For how long? It
:48:46. > :48:48.is a pilot, as long as you need to. You have clearly got to look at this
:48:49. > :48:53.over the course of at least one year, but depending on those
:48:54. > :49:01.milestones, but it has to be agreed in advance. Do you have any views
:49:02. > :49:05.about the current Home Office guidelines which fairly severely
:49:06. > :49:12.restrict when you can switch on and off and the rules around it. The
:49:13. > :49:17.issue was about how the criminal justice system changes itself to the
:49:18. > :49:22.digital era. People have cameras and we need to make sure the evidential
:49:23. > :49:27.value of this is secured, and courts can use it, and not be restricted by
:49:28. > :49:34.bureaucrats. You think the guidelines need changing?
:49:35. > :49:38.Potentially these specific guidelines need to be reviewed and
:49:39. > :49:42.then we can feedback based on this pilot, but worse than that the
:49:43. > :49:47.evidential value that is sometimes captured cannot be used in the
:49:48. > :49:52.charging process of the CPS very easily as I understand it. So you
:49:53. > :50:02.wouldn't have a problem with the cameras running all the time. No, we
:50:03. > :50:06.need to be clear about when there is value because having a camera on all
:50:07. > :50:11.the time means you have to work out how much of it you store. We need to
:50:12. > :50:15.work out when it will have the biggest impact to reduce complaints
:50:16. > :50:20.against the police and have the biggest impact in interactions with
:50:21. > :50:28.the public. Diane Abbott, what do you think about what you have heard?
:50:29. > :50:32.I think it is the way to go. I have been in London politics since the
:50:33. > :50:38.Brixton riots in the 1980s. What happens is that someone dies, and
:50:39. > :50:43.because people don't have information rumours take off like
:50:44. > :50:48.wildfire and that is where you have these social complications. If you
:50:49. > :50:52.have these cameras, you will have fewer rumours, lest things blowing
:50:53. > :50:57.up in the community, it has to be the way to go. I understand your
:50:58. > :51:03.point about not filming it all the time but you don't want to have
:51:04. > :51:08.police switching it off at will. Are you saying it should be on all the
:51:09. > :51:15.time? You have got to have a protocol. One guy died, and they are
:51:16. > :51:22.supposed to have filming in the custody suites now, and when I went
:51:23. > :51:34.and asked what the tape showed, he said the camera is broken. That kind
:51:35. > :51:40.of thing creates distrust. Mary? I agree with that. I think we want
:51:41. > :51:44.more prosecutions and if this will help with that all the better.
:51:45. > :51:51.Chiswick was the very first refuge in the world so we want to do
:51:52. > :51:56.everything we can. It appears to be advantageous that people are saying
:51:57. > :52:00.something instantaneously which is caught on camera, which they may
:52:01. > :52:06.subsequently changed so it is proving a very good evidential
:52:07. > :52:09.gathering tool. It has to be dealt with sensitively but there are
:52:10. > :52:16.special police officers who deal with domestic violence cases. It
:52:17. > :52:22.helps protect the police, victims, prosecutions, it is good all round.
:52:23. > :52:34.And it gives transparency about police communications. The Met
:52:35. > :52:40.Police all agreed... I have noted the Commissioner's excitement about
:52:41. > :52:45.deploying this, I think it is right and I am glad that everybody agrees
:52:46. > :52:52.that building that transparency goes right back to the core of the
:52:53. > :52:57.19th-century. Does it need to be approved by the Home Secretary, this
:52:58. > :53:03.kind of scale? We are going ahead with this pilot in partnership the
:53:04. > :53:10.Home Office. This is one area where we are at one with the Home Office.
:53:11. > :53:16.The only area? We would like to explore those but we haven't got
:53:17. > :53:19.time today! The last point, when is it happening? We are starting the
:53:20. > :53:27.pilot towards the end of March and it goes on for the next financial
:53:28. > :53:31.year. For many, the word prefab will evoke images of factory produced
:53:32. > :53:38.temporary housing which sprung up all over London after the Second
:53:39. > :53:42.World War but there are calls for new permanent prefabricated homes to
:53:43. > :53:49.ease the capital's unrelenting housing problems. This is how you
:53:50. > :53:53.build a prefab, in a factory... Factory homes were once commonplace
:53:54. > :53:58.around London, offering emergency housing, but could it be time to
:53:59. > :54:05.bring back a modern version of these 20th-century techniques? Walls
:54:06. > :54:09.assembled in a factory are slotted into place, and according to
:54:10. > :54:14.developers these houses go up at a rate of one per day, and when
:54:15. > :54:20.finished they will be permanent, unrecognisable from the post-war
:54:21. > :54:26.prefab. You have got lower costs to heat your home, less than ?30 per
:54:27. > :54:31.annum. This week Labour announced they want to see a huge increase in
:54:32. > :54:37.prefab construction, saying up to 14,000 could be built by the end of
:54:38. > :54:42.this year alone. London has a housing crisis and the Mayor is not
:54:43. > :54:50.doing enough. He has got masses of land, the equivalent of five Hyde
:54:51. > :54:53.Parks. Labour wants him to use that land and stimulate a pipeline of
:54:54. > :54:56.these homes on his land across London. In response, City Hall
:54:57. > :55:12.issued the following statement. According to Labour, in Japan and
:55:13. > :55:15.Sweden 90% of homes are factory built. With backing of some sort
:55:16. > :55:20.from Labour and Conservatives in London, could it be that the capital
:55:21. > :55:30.starts to emulate them soon? What do you both ink of prefabs? This
:55:31. > :55:36.initiative in rain was a GLA initiative so I think it has got
:55:37. > :55:43.potential. Housing in London is a major issue, we need more affordable
:55:44. > :55:52.housing. The mayor is on track to do this, he has done 60,000 already. It
:55:53. > :55:56.was meant to be 110,000 of course, because it was 55,000 for the first
:55:57. > :56:02.term and then he wanted to match that so it would be 110,000. It is
:56:03. > :56:08.still a big increase from what it was, and if we can do anything to
:56:09. > :56:12.help the houses go up quicker, the better. We need to make sure it is
:56:13. > :56:16.the quality required but it is this type of housing which is built
:56:17. > :56:26.off-site and brought on-site that could have real potential. Does it
:56:27. > :56:32.only work in certain areas? There was a generation of prefab houses
:56:33. > :56:36.built after the Second World War and people lived in them until the end
:56:37. > :56:40.of their lives and they loved them, so I think you can have them
:56:41. > :56:51.anywhere. Housing is a huge crisis in London. I think you need to put a
:56:52. > :56:56.levy on non-dom owners, you need rent controls, you need to allow
:56:57. > :57:01.councils to borrow to build houses, and I also think these prefab houses
:57:02. > :57:07.are part of the solution. We have seen from that statement that the
:57:08. > :57:12.mayor has this land and plans for it, is there an argument for
:57:13. > :57:17.changing the mix so that you have more prefab houses? I think there
:57:18. > :57:20.will be a mix of it and it will be down to a large extent two London
:57:21. > :57:27.boroughs as well to make a decision about what is right for the space
:57:28. > :57:34.they have got. In west London it is flats going up rather than houses,
:57:35. > :57:39.although I was at a housing meeting in Brentford yesterday and they said
:57:40. > :57:43.they want more houses for families and something that is affordable,
:57:44. > :57:47.but we want something happening now and not in ten years. The solution
:57:48. > :57:52.could be something which is an important part of the mixture of
:57:53. > :58:01.what we do in London housing. But we could overdo it, it is no
:58:02. > :58:06.consolation is it? It is a mix, and above all councils need to be able
:58:07. > :58:11.to borrow to build, but it is an issue people think the mayor has
:58:12. > :58:20.failed on. Now the political news in 60 seconds.
:58:21. > :58:25.Flexible tickets and travel cards aimed at part-time workers in London
:58:26. > :58:28.will be launched in January 2015, no details as yet but Boris Johnson
:58:29. > :58:35.said the plan would bear down on transport costs. Ministers have
:58:36. > :58:39.blocked the 2011 report into the controversial high-speed rail scheme
:58:40. > :58:43.HS2. The document analysed how it was progressing at the time but the
:58:44. > :58:47.Government said it was not in the public interest to release the
:58:48. > :58:58.paper. Metropolitan Police and mayor of London Boris Johnson want to buy
:58:59. > :59:02.three cannons from Germany. The banning of a London bus advert
:59:03. > :59:08.suggesting people could get over homosexuality should be
:59:09. > :59:23.investigated, the appeal court has ruled.
:59:24. > :59:28.Was the mayor right? If Transport for London decided this advert
:59:29. > :59:33.breached its procedures and didn't have it in the first place and it
:59:34. > :59:38.was clear, that is one thing, but should there be allowed to pick up
:59:39. > :59:44.the phone and say this is going to offend a large number of people, it
:59:45. > :59:50.is election time, we can't have it? He obviously felt strongly about it.
:59:51. > :59:54.What I would have done is either to ban both sets of adverts or allow
:59:55. > :59:58.both and there is always that difficult combination of allowing
:59:59. > :00:03.freedom of speech but yet we want to build a tolerant society. We have a
:00:04. > :00:08.really tolerant society in London which is really important and we
:00:09. > :00:18.want to maintain that, especially in west London 30% of my constituency
:00:19. > :00:21.is Asian. I don't think it is a political issue, it is a human
:00:22. > :00:25.rights issue. People should not be allowed to put anti-gay stuff on
:00:26. > :00:30.buses any more than they should anti-black. Would you have done the
:00:31. > :00:36.same thing? It is human rights, not political. Half of the country's
:00:37. > :00:45.LGBT's community lives in London. You cannot have anti-gay stuff on
:00:46. > :00:50.buses. Are you any clear on whether you might like to stand for this job
:00:51. > :00:54.in 2016? I have no plans to run to be Mayor of London. Have you thought
:00:55. > :01:05.about it? It has been suggested to me, but I currently have no plans.
:01:06. > :01:12.Not a complete denial! Hopefully a Conservative mayor again.
:01:13. > :01:19.Not a good week for David Cameron on the tricky European front last week.
:01:20. > :01:25.President Hollande said he was not interested in major treaty reform
:01:26. > :01:28.for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron hopes to hold his in-out referendum.
:01:29. > :01:33.And the private member's bill to put that referendum on the statute bill
:01:34. > :01:36.was killed by Labour and Lib Dem peers in the Lords. James Wharton
:01:37. > :01:45.was the Tory MP behind the bill, and he joins me now. What happens now?
:01:46. > :01:48.It is out of my hands what happens now, because Labour and the Liberal
:01:49. > :01:52.Democrats conspired in the Lords to kill off my bill. One of the options
:01:53. > :01:56.is for another private member to bring a bill forward when they have
:01:57. > :02:00.the next private member's bill at, and we can try again. The prime
:02:01. > :02:06.minister has indicated that he will support that. But whatever happens,
:02:07. > :02:12.it will be in the Conservative manifesto at the next election. Do
:02:13. > :02:15.you accept that cost this is Tory policy and not government policy
:02:16. > :02:20.that the government policy elite macro cannot bring forward a bill?
:02:21. > :02:24.That is the problem. The Liberal Democrats, despite having promised a
:02:25. > :02:27.referendum in their manifesto at the last election, now will not allow
:02:28. > :02:32.government time for a bill to enshrine that in law. That was why I
:02:33. > :02:35.brought it forward as a private member's bill. David Cameron and the
:02:36. > :02:39.Conservative Party through everything behind that. To many
:02:40. > :02:43.people's surprise, we got it through all the House of Commons stages.
:02:44. > :02:47.Sadly, to their discredit, Labour and Liberal Democrat peers, doing
:02:48. > :02:52.the bidding of their masters in the Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do
:02:53. > :02:56.you accept that it is Conservative policy, but not government policy,
:02:57. > :03:00.that you could not use the Parliament act to get this through
:03:01. > :03:06.the Lords? That is not the case. The Parliament act is clear that if a
:03:07. > :03:08.public bill passes through the House of Commons twice in one
:03:09. > :03:13.Parliamentary period, there is a certain amount of time that has to
:03:14. > :03:17.be between both bills being presented. There are some procedural
:03:18. > :03:21.steps to be overcome, but there is no legal reason why the Parliament
:03:22. > :03:26.act could not come into effect. I was talking about you not having a
:03:27. > :03:29.majority in this case. That remains to be seen. We saw previously that
:03:30. > :03:33.Labour and the Liberal Democrats sent enough people to frustrate its
:03:34. > :03:39.progress to make it as difficult as possible, but not huge numbers to
:03:40. > :03:44.vote against it. On a Friday, huge numbers of MPs do not attend
:03:45. > :03:50.normally. Getting that number might prove difficult. The Parliament act,
:03:51. > :03:54.which is a bit of an atomic bomb in constitutional terms, if that was
:03:55. > :04:00.used, they would turn up to vote against you. Is it not the case that
:04:01. > :04:05.after the countryside Alliance tried to involve the courts in the hunting
:04:06. > :04:10.ban that it was made clear that the Parliament act was not to be used
:04:11. > :04:13.for constitutional issues? I don't think we know how many would turn up
:04:14. > :04:18.and we don't know how they would vote. One of the things that has
:04:19. > :04:21.been revealed as I have gone through the process of getting this bill to
:04:22. > :04:25.get a referendum through the Commons is that there are big splits in the
:04:26. > :04:30.Labour Party. One of the reasons we did not see them turning up in large
:04:31. > :04:33.numbers to stop this bill from happening was that Ed Miliband knew
:04:34. > :04:36.that if he tried to lead his own MPs through the lobbies to block a
:04:37. > :04:42.bill, the only purpose of which is to let Britain decides to give
:04:43. > :04:46.people a say on membership of the union, a lot of his MPs may not have
:04:47. > :04:50.followed him. It is all fantasy politics anyway. The French
:04:51. > :04:54.president has made clear that he has no interest in treaty change this
:04:55. > :05:01.side of 2017. He would need a referendum as well . And he needs
:05:02. > :05:05.that like a hole and had. Merkel is not keen, as she is in coalition
:05:06. > :05:10.with the social Democrats. Without the French or the Germans, it will
:05:11. > :05:16.not happen, end of story. The policy is that we will try to negotiate on
:05:17. > :05:21.getting a better deal. I hear what you are saying, but I don't
:05:22. > :05:24.recognise it as reality. We have a strong bargaining position. But
:05:25. > :05:29.whatever the result of that negotiation, it will be put in an
:05:30. > :05:32.in-out vote to the Britain people. It is time people were allowed to
:05:33. > :05:36.decide. It has been over a generation since we last had a say.
:05:37. > :05:40.David Cameron has committed to delivering that referendum. The
:05:41. > :05:44.Conservative Party will have it in our next manifesto for the election.
:05:45. > :05:48.Whatever happens to my bill or any other of the bill that comes
:05:49. > :05:52.forward. If people want a referendum, the only party that can
:05:53. > :05:58.deliver that in British politics is the Conservatives. Let me bring the
:05:59. > :06:03.panel in. Nick, where is this going? It is clear to me and anyone who
:06:04. > :06:06.follows European politics that there is no appetite for major treaty
:06:07. > :06:11.change in the short run, particularly for the kind of major
:06:12. > :06:14.changes that Vista Cameron says he is going to get, and yet the Tories
:06:15. > :06:18.are talking about Europe again when they should be talking about the
:06:19. > :06:23.economy. And Francois Hollande is looking at 2017, the year we are
:06:24. > :06:27.meant to have this referendum. There will be a French presidential
:06:28. > :06:30.election going on, and Nicolas Sarkozy will be back in play by
:06:31. > :06:37.then. But James has an interesting point, which is that it is down to
:06:38. > :06:41.Angela Merkel. She would be more receptive to David Cameron's ideas
:06:42. > :06:46.of reform than people assume. She has looked over the edge at a Europe
:06:47. > :06:51.without the UK and said, that is not acceptable, and I am willing to pay
:06:52. > :06:56.a price, not any price, but a price to keep the UK in the European
:06:57. > :07:00.Union. And the French, because the UK and France are the only serious
:07:01. > :07:03.military powers in Europe, will eventually come to that position. So
:07:04. > :07:09.there is more support for David Cameron than people assume. The
:07:10. > :07:18.French are also not a strong position in terms of the euro and
:07:19. > :07:27.French economy. The Foreign Office seem a bit more optimistic about
:07:28. > :07:31.it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd once told me, we are winning the
:07:32. > :07:34.arguments on the single currency. Of course anything from the Foreign
:07:35. > :07:39.Office comes with a health warning, but if David Cameron had won a
:07:40. > :07:44.majority and was determined to renegotiate, he is in a strong
:07:45. > :07:48.position with Merkel. There is a possibility that the French could
:07:49. > :07:54.eventually be talked around. So it is not entirely bleak on that front
:07:55. > :07:58.for Cameron. When do the Tory party managers say, look, stop banging on
:07:59. > :08:03.about Europe again? The economy is going away. We still have an
:08:04. > :08:08.electoral mountain to climb. Let's just talk about that and not be
:08:09. > :08:14.divided. They should have done that some time ago. It is already too
:08:15. > :08:19.late. The Tories need a seven point lead in the polls to get image are
:08:20. > :08:23.tea. The way things are, that would require a huge change from where we
:08:24. > :08:29.are now . It is very unlikely to happen. So all this is happening in
:08:30. > :08:35.some bizarre imaginary space with wonderful rainbows and sunshine. But
:08:36. > :08:43.we can detect the beginnings of a shift in the last couple of weeks.
:08:44. > :08:47.If you talk to Tory backbenchers, Douglas Carswell is now saying in
:08:48. > :08:52.public that it is time to stop the fighting. If they are to get even
:08:53. > :09:00.close to winning the election, they can't do it if they are all against
:09:01. > :09:05.each other. I don't think it is an imaginary space. It is likely that
:09:06. > :09:08.David Cameron will have the largest party in the election. If it is a
:09:09. > :09:10.hung parliament and it is the Liberal Democrats and the
:09:11. > :09:15.Conservative Party, David Cameron will save to Nick Clegg we gave you
:09:16. > :09:20.an AV referendum, I am having this referendum. And it will be difficult
:09:21. > :09:26.for Nick to say no. Let me go back to Mr Wharton. You are going to get
:09:27. > :09:30.a referendum in the manifesto. Other than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it.
:09:31. > :09:33.So why don't you just banked that and get behind the leadership
:09:34. > :09:39.Institute causing endless problems and coming across as a Europe
:09:40. > :09:44.accessed, divided party? I am absolutely behind the leadership.
:09:45. > :09:48.David Cameron announced the policy I am trying to bring forward in this
:09:49. > :09:55.bill. It is in line with the speech he gave this time last year. But
:09:56. > :10:00.getting that commitment into law will help to kick-start the
:10:01. > :10:05.negotiation process and mean everyone will know where we stand.
:10:06. > :10:09.But whatever happens, the Conservatives are committed to
:10:10. > :10:12.delivering a referendum. And to address the point that we talk about
:10:13. > :10:17.Europe too much, that is not the case. We have a good message on the
:10:18. > :10:23.economy, on tackling immigration and reforming welfare. There is more to
:10:24. > :10:28.do, but this is also an important part of policy. But at a time when
:10:29. > :10:33.the economic news seems to be turning in your direction, you are
:10:34. > :10:38.talking about the European referendum. Your backbench
:10:39. > :10:43.colleagues are trying to change the Immigration Bill every which way.
:10:44. > :10:48.Dominic Rather is putting in an amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has
:10:49. > :10:52.been on this programme, putting in amendments that are clearly illegal.
:10:53. > :10:56.How is that helpful? The fact is that we are in a coalition, so there
:10:57. > :10:59.are areas of policy where Conservatives might want to go
:11:00. > :11:05.further and we are not able to do that. In other areas, we are
:11:06. > :11:12.delivering good reforms. But this is not a matter of going further. The
:11:13. > :11:15.mill 's amendment was clearly a contravention of the Treaty of Rome.
:11:16. > :11:19.That is where you get the headlines from. Some of your colleagues have a
:11:20. > :11:25.death wish? Would they rather have a Miliband government if the choice is
:11:26. > :11:29.an impure Cameron one instead? I don't think anyone in their right
:11:30. > :11:36.mind would rather have a Miliband government. Then why are they
:11:37. > :11:40.behaving that way? We have had some disagreements into the leak and
:11:41. > :11:44.debate within the party, but it was talked about on the panel just now.
:11:45. > :11:48.The Conservative Party is behind David Cameron and focused on winning
:11:49. > :11:52.the next election. Europe is one part of that. We have policies in a
:11:53. > :12:01.range of areas, but we are getting back on the right track. Thank you
:12:02. > :12:05.for being patient with us. Is this ghost story going to go
:12:06. > :12:08.somewhere? Mr Laws is talking through surrogates at the moment,
:12:09. > :12:17.but there is a strategy by the Lib Dems make these differential points
:12:18. > :12:22.now. I think it is fantastic coalition sports and entertaining,
:12:23. > :12:26.but in terms of out there, it has almost no traction whatsoever. I
:12:27. > :12:30.don't think any voters know who Baroness Morgan is and it sounds
:12:31. > :12:33.like one but politicians shouting at another bunch of politicians about
:12:34. > :12:39.their ability to give each other jobs. There is a larger point about
:12:40. > :12:42.the way Michael Gove runs his government. He is notoriously a very
:12:43. > :12:46.polite man surrounded by Rottweiler is, his advisers. He has made
:12:47. > :12:51.enemies of a lot of people in the media, and some of that will come
:12:52. > :12:55.back on him in the next 18 months. We shall see if Mr Laws himself
:12:56. > :12:59.sticks his head above the parapet. That is it for this week. The Daily
:13:00. > :13:04.Politics is on throughout the week at midday on BBC Two, except on
:13:05. > :13:09.Wednesdays, when we are on at 11:30am. I will be back next week at
:13:10. > :13:15.the same time. Remember, if it is Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.