:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Fears that Ukraine could face invasion escalate this morning as
:00:44. > :00:47.Russian forces take control of Crimea. President Obama and his
:00:48. > :00:52.European allies tell President Putin to back off. It doesn't sound like
:00:53. > :00:54.he's listening. Shadow Education Secretary Tristram
:00:55. > :00:59.Hunt has started spelling out Labour's plans for schools. So
:01:00. > :01:05.what's the verdict - full marks or must try harder? He joins us for the
:01:06. > :01:08.Sunday Interview. And all the big political parties
:01:09. > :01:11.are desperate to broaden their appeal. We'll look at some unusual
:01:12. > :01:21.ideas for freshening up those tired old party logos. Charities report a
:01:22. > :01:26.sharp rise in the use of food banks and people deal with benefit
:01:27. > :01:31.changes. And tightening household finances.
:01:32. > :01:35.And with me, as always, three journalists who'd make a clean sweep
:01:36. > :01:39.if they were handing out Oscars for political punditry in LA tonight.
:01:40. > :01:44.But just like poor old Leonardo DiCaprio they've never won so much
:01:45. > :01:47.as a Blue Peter badge! Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan
:01:48. > :01:50.Ganesh. Instead of acceptance speeches they'll be tweeting faster
:01:51. > :01:56.than the tears roll down Gwyneth Paltrow's face. Yes, that's as
:01:57. > :02:00.luvvie as we get on this show. Events have been moving quickly in
:02:01. > :02:03.Ukraine this weekend. The interim government in Kiev has put the
:02:04. > :02:05.Ukrainian military on full combat alert after Russia's parliament
:02:06. > :02:11.rubber-stamped the deployment of Russian troops anywhere in Ukraine.
:02:12. > :02:12.Russian troops seem already to be in control of the mainly
:02:13. > :02:17.Russian-speaking Crimea region, where Russia has a massive naval
:02:18. > :02:19.base. President Obama told President Putin that Russia has flouted
:02:20. > :02:27.international law by sending in Russian troops but the Kremlin is
:02:28. > :02:29.taking no notice. This is now turning into the worst stand-off
:02:30. > :02:31.between Russia and the West since the conflict between Georgia and
:02:32. > :02:37.Russia in 2008, though nobody expects any kind of military
:02:38. > :02:42.response from the West. Foreign Secretary William Hague is on his
:02:43. > :02:44.way to Kiev this morning to show his support for the new government,
:02:45. > :02:48.though how long it will survive is another matter. We can speak to our
:02:49. > :02:56.correspondent David Stern, he's in Kiev.
:02:57. > :03:02.As things look from Kiev, can we take it they've lost Crimea, it is
:03:03. > :03:10.now in all essence under Russian control? Yes, well for the moment,
:03:11. > :03:14.Crimea is under Russian control Russian troops in unmarked uniforms
:03:15. > :03:23.have moved throughout the peninsula taking up various positions, also at
:03:24. > :03:29.the Ismis which links Ukraine into Crimea. They've surrounded Ukrainon
:03:30. > :03:34.troops there. Three units have been captured according to a top
:03:35. > :03:38.officials. We can say at the moment Russia controls the peninsula. It
:03:39. > :03:43.should also be said, also they have the support of the ethnic Russian
:03:44. > :03:48.population. The ethnic Russians make up the majority of the population.
:03:49. > :03:54.They are also not entirely in control because there are other
:03:55. > :04:00.groups, namely the Tatar as and the ethnic Ukrainian speakers who are at
:04:01. > :04:05.least at the moment tacitly resisting. We'll see what they'll
:04:06. > :04:11.start to do in the coming days. David, I'm putting up some pictures
:04:12. > :04:16.showing Russian troops digging in on the border between Crimea and
:04:17. > :04:21.Ukraine. I get the sense that is just for show. There is, I would
:04:22. > :04:29.assume, no possibility that the Ukrainians could attempt to retake
:04:30. > :04:33.Crimea by military force? It seems that the Ukrainians are weighing
:04:34. > :04:38.their options right now. Their options are very limited. Any
:04:39. > :04:42.head-to-head conflict with Russia would probably work against the
:04:43. > :04:47.Ukrainians. They seem to be taking more of a long-term gain. They are
:04:48. > :04:52.waiting for the figs's first move. They are trying not to create any
:04:53. > :04:57.excuse that the Russians can stage an even larger incursion into Crimea
:04:58. > :05:03.or elsewhere, for that matter. They also seem to be trying to get
:05:04. > :05:05.international support. It should be said, this is a new Government. It
:05:06. > :05:08.has only been installed this week. They are trying to gain their
:05:09. > :05:15.footing. This is a major crisis They have to count on the loyalty of
:05:16. > :05:19.the army they might have some resistance from solders from the
:05:20. > :05:23.eastern part of the country who are Russian speaking. They probably
:05:24. > :05:27.could count on Ukrainian speakers and people from the centre and west
:05:28. > :05:32.of the country as well as regular Ukrainians. A lot of people are
:05:33. > :05:39.ready to fight to defend Ukrainian Terre Tory. Where does the Kremlin
:05:40. > :05:44.go next? They have Crimea to all intents and purposes. There's a weak
:05:45. > :05:48.Government in Kiev. Do they move to the eastern side of Ukraine which is
:05:49. > :05:54.largely Russian speaking and there's already been some unrest there?
:05:55. > :05:57.That's the big question, that's what everybody's really asking now. Where
:05:58. > :06:01.does this go from here? We've had some unrest in the eastern part of
:06:02. > :06:06.the country. There have been demonstrations and clashes. More
:06:07. > :06:13.ominously, there have been noises from the Kremlin they might actually
:06:14. > :06:17.move into eastern Ukraine. Putin in his conversation with Barack Obama
:06:18. > :06:22.said they might protect their interests there. It should be said,
:06:23. > :06:28.if they do expand, in fact, they've also said they are dead against the
:06:29. > :06:35.new Government seeing it as illegitimate and fascist. It does
:06:36. > :06:38.contain risks. They will have to deal with international reactions.
:06:39. > :06:43.America said there will be a deep reaction to this and it will affect
:06:44. > :06:47.Russia's relations with Ukraine and the international community. They
:06:48. > :06:53.have to deal with the reaction in Ukraine. This may unite Ukrainians
:06:54. > :07:00.behind this new interim Government. Once Russia moves in, they will be
:07:01. > :07:07.seen as an invading force. It plays on historical feelings of Russia
:07:08. > :07:13.being an imperial force. Joining me is MP Mark Field who sits
:07:14. > :07:16.on the security Security and Intelligence Committee in the House
:07:17. > :07:21.of Commons. What should the western response be to these events? I can
:07:22. > :07:30.understand why William Hague is going to Kiev tomorrow to stand side
:07:31. > :07:35.by side whizz whoever's in charge. They need to CEOP sit numbers and
:07:36. > :07:43.also President Putin. The truth is we are all co significant fatries to
:07:44. > :07:51.the Budapest Memorandum of almost 20 years ago which was designed to
:07:52. > :07:55.maintain the integrity of the Ukraine and Crimea. There needs to
:07:56. > :08:00.be a discussion along those lines. The difficulty is President Putin
:08:01. > :08:08.has watched events in recent months, in relation to Syria, it is palpable
:08:09. > :08:12.President Obama's focus of attention ask the other side of the Pacific
:08:13. > :08:17.rather than the Atlantic. The vote in the House of Commons, I was very
:08:18. > :08:21.much against the idea of military action or providing weapons to the
:08:22. > :08:27.free Syrian army. My worry is, events proved this, the majority of
:08:28. > :08:33.the other options toed as sad are rather worse. It is clear now we are
:08:34. > :08:37.in a constitutional mess in this country. We cannot even contemplate
:08:38. > :08:40.military action without a parliamentary vote that moves
:08:41. > :08:46.against quick reaction that is required from the executive or, I
:08:47. > :08:54.suspect, there will be very little appetite for any military action
:08:55. > :08:59.from the West over in Ukraine. We are corn tours under the agreement
:09:00. > :09:02.of less than 20 years ago. We may be but we've guaranteed an agreement
:09:03. > :09:06.which it is clear we haven't the power to enforce. You wrote this
:09:07. > :09:13.morning, Britain is a diminished voice. Clams Iley navigating the
:09:14. > :09:17.Syrian conflict we relick wished decisions to the whims of
:09:18. > :09:25.parliamentary approval. That may or may not be but the Kremlin's not
:09:26. > :09:30.watching how we voted on the Syrian issue? In relation to Syria, it was
:09:31. > :09:35.where is the western resolve here. The truth ask Putin's position is
:09:36. > :09:40.considerably less strong. In diplomatic terms. He had a victory
:09:41. > :09:46.in Syria in relation to chemical weapons and in relation to the
:09:47. > :09:53.West's relationship with Iran. Putin is a vital inter locking figure In
:09:54. > :09:58.demographic and economic terms, Russia's in very deep trouble. The
:09:59. > :10:03.oil price started to fall to any degree, oil and gas price, given the
:10:04. > :10:08.importance of mineral wealth and exports for the Russian economy
:10:09. > :10:16.Putin would be in a lot of trouble. It requires an engagement from the
:10:17. > :10:18.EU and the EU are intending to look at their internal economic problems
:10:19. > :10:23.and will be smarting from the failure within a matter of hours of
:10:24. > :10:28.the deal they tried to broker only nine days' ago.
:10:29. > :10:31.You say if Mr Putin decides to increase the stakes and moves into
:10:32. > :10:37.the east, takes over the whole place, our Government, you say, will
:10:38. > :10:41.find itself with another colossal international headache. Some people
:10:42. > :10:46.watching this will be thinking, what's it got to do with us? It s a
:10:47. > :10:51.long way away from Britain. We haven't a dog in this fight? We have
:10:52. > :10:57.in this regard for the longer term here. I think if there were to be
:10:58. > :11:01.some military action in Ukraine the sense of Russia taking over, it
:11:02. > :11:06.could have a major impact on the global economy in very quick order.
:11:07. > :11:10.You should not deny that. There will be move to have sanctions against
:11:11. > :11:17.Russia. The escalation of that will be difficult. The other fact is
:11:18. > :11:24.looking at our internal affairs and reform, partners, the Baltic states,
:11:25. > :11:29.Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, they will be looking at a resurgent
:11:30. > :11:34.Russia now and think they'll need to hold as tightly as possible to the
:11:35. > :11:41.EU institutions and the power of Germany at the centre of that. This
:11:42. > :11:46.whole appetite for the reforms politically and economically will be
:11:47. > :11:52.closed very much within a matter of a short period of time. It has
:11:53. > :12:01.longer term implications. Mark Field, thank you.
:12:02. > :12:05.We're joined now by BBC News night's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban. Is
:12:06. > :12:12.there any prospect of a western military response? Clearly at the
:12:13. > :12:18.moment, it is nil. The boat has sailed with the Crimean. It has been
:12:19. > :12:24.per performed by Russian forces It is now a matter of coordinating a
:12:25. > :12:30.plate cal line. European foreign ministers tomorrow. To say what will
:12:31. > :12:35.our future limits be? Where could we possibly draw red lines? To try to
:12:36. > :12:40.think a couple of steps down this, what happens if Russia interrupts
:12:41. > :12:43.energy supplies to EU member states ornate owe countries? These are the
:12:44. > :12:48.important steps they have to think about. It is quite clear we are in a
:12:49. > :12:53.different world here now. Also, Ukraine is facing a urgent foreign
:12:54. > :12:58.exchange crisis. Within literally a few weeks they could run out of
:12:59. > :13:03.money. All of these are rushing towards decision makers very fast.
:13:04. > :13:08.There is an interim and I suggestion unstable Government in Kiev. Crimea
:13:09. > :13:11.semi-to be under Russian control. There are clashes between the
:13:12. > :13:16.reformers and Russian nationals in the east of the country. What does
:13:17. > :13:21.Mr Putin do next? He has lots of options, of course. He has this
:13:22. > :13:28.carte blanch carte blanch from his Parliament to go in to the rest of
:13:29. > :13:33.Ukraine if he wants to. His military deployment suggests the one bite at
:13:34. > :13:37.a time, just Crimea to start with. See what response comes from the
:13:38. > :13:41.Ukrainian Government. Of course so far, there hasn't been a coherent
:13:42. > :13:46.response. The really worrying thing about recent months, not just recent
:13:47. > :13:52.days, are the indications that the future of Ukraine as a unitary state
:13:53. > :13:59.is now in doubt. Look at it from the other side of the equation. The
:14:00. > :14:03.President when faced with demonstrations, many extremists he
:14:04. > :14:08.was unable to deal with that. Now we have the other side, if you like,
:14:09. > :14:13.the Russian speakers, the other side of the fight, Russian nationalists
:14:14. > :14:21.showing they can get away with unilateral action more or less with
:14:22. > :14:26.impunity. The Ukrainian chiefs have been sacked. I think there are
:14:27. > :14:33.considerable questions now as to whether Ukraine is falling apart
:14:34. > :14:35.and, if that happens, we're into a Yugoslav-type situation which will
:14:36. > :14:44.continue posing very serious questions for the EU and NATO for
:14:45. > :14:51.months or years to come. So, Janan, Ukraine is over? Where the west to
:14:52. > :14:57.concede to the Russian in Crimea, it would perversely be a net loss for
:14:58. > :15:02.Russia. You'd assume the rest of Ukraine would become an un
:15:03. > :15:12.unambiguously a member of the the EU, maybe NATO. On top of that a
:15:13. > :15:15.Russian dream of Eurasion dream they will look at Putin's behaviour
:15:16. > :15:21.and is a, no, thanks, we'll head towards the EU. It is a short-term
:15:22. > :15:34.victory for Putin which backfires on his broader goals in Well, many
:15:35. > :15:40.people said if he grabs Crimea, he loses Ukraine, which is your point.
:15:41. > :15:45.We have seen violent demonstrations in the big eastern cities in Ukraine
:15:46. > :15:50.yesterday. People taking control of certain buildings. The risk is there
:15:51. > :15:55.of spreading beyond Crimea. I think the lack of any unified or visible
:15:56. > :15:58.response from Ukrainian armed forces... They allowed Russian
:15:59. > :16:02.troops to walk into the bases in Crimea. They have supposedly gone on
:16:03. > :16:06.red alert but they have done absolutely nothing. We don't see
:16:07. > :16:10.them deploying from barracks. There are serious questions about whether
:16:11. > :16:18.they would just fall apart. Putin is not going to let them split away. I
:16:19. > :16:22.would have thought he would like the entire Ukraine to come into the
:16:23. > :16:27.Russian ambit. Barack Obama is saying this will not stand. He has a
:16:28. > :16:33.90 minute conversation with Vladimir Putin and what is his response? I am
:16:34. > :16:39.suspending my cooperation in the run-up to the Sochi Summit. What is
:16:40. > :16:43.the EU doing? Nothing. There is nothing they can do and Putin knows
:16:44. > :16:49.there are a series of lines that he is able to cross and get away with
:16:50. > :16:54.it. Why should Berlin, London, Washington be surprised by the
:16:55. > :17:00.strength of Vladimir Putin's reaction? It was never going to let
:17:01. > :17:05.Ukraine just fall into the arms of the EU. That is the interesting
:17:06. > :17:08.point. And who does he listen to? Paddy Ashdown was saying sent Angela
:17:09. > :17:12.Merkel because she is the only person who can talk to him and I
:17:13. > :17:17.find that response worrying. We need to speak with a united voice but
:17:18. > :17:21.nobody knows what we should be saying. Military intervention is out
:17:22. > :17:26.for the West so we go to economic sanctions. Doesn't Vladimir Putin
:17:27. > :17:32.just say, oh, you want sanctions? I have turned off the gas tap. Yes, it
:17:33. > :17:36.is move and countermove, and it is difficult to predict where it will
:17:37. > :17:42.end up. In all these meetings that are being held, they do think a step
:17:43. > :18:13.or two ahead and try and set out clear lines. Thank you for coming in
:18:14. > :18:15.this morning. Labour has been struggling since
:18:16. > :18:17.2010 to decide exactly how to take education secretary Michael Gove,
:18:18. > :18:19.one of the boldest reformers of the coalition and most divisive figures.
:18:20. > :18:22.Ed Miliband appointed TV historian Tristram Hunt and many thought
:18:23. > :18:25.Labour had found the man to teach Michael Gove a lesson. But how much
:18:26. > :18:27.do we really know about the party's plans for England's schools? Wales,
:18:28. > :18:29.Scotland and Northern Ireland are a devolved matter. Child has been back
:18:30. > :18:31.to school to find out. A politician once told me, do you know why
:18:32. > :18:34.education secretaries changed schools? Because they can. Michael
:18:35. > :18:36.Gove might dispute the motive but he is changing schools, like this one.
:18:37. > :18:38.The changes he is ringing in our encouraging them to be academies,
:18:39. > :18:40.free from local authorities to control their own budgets, ushering
:18:41. > :18:43.in free schools, focusing on toughening exams and making them the
:18:44. > :18:47.core of the curriculum with less coursework, and offering heads more
:18:48. > :18:52.discretion on tougher discipline. And he is in a hurry to put all this
:18:53. > :18:56.in place. But has that shut out any chance for a Labour Government to
:18:57. > :19:01.change it all themselves and do they really want to? Any questions?
:19:02. > :19:06.Visiting a different school, first in line to get a crack at that
:19:07. > :19:10.would-be Labour's third shadow education secretary since 2010,
:19:11. > :19:14.Tristram Hunt. In post, he has not been taken about fine tuning
:19:15. > :19:17.previous direct opposition to free schools and he has also suggested
:19:18. > :19:21.teachers in England would have to be licensed under a Labour Government,
:19:22. > :19:25.allowing the worst to be sacked and offering training and development to
:19:26. > :19:29.others and of course ending coalition plans to allow unqualified
:19:30. > :19:40.teachers into classrooms. Full policy detail is still unmarked
:19:41. > :19:45.work. Your opinion about evolution? What is very clear is that Labour's
:19:46. > :19:50.education policy is still evolving. We are learning that they have some
:19:51. > :19:54.clear water, but we also seem, from the sting at the back, to get the
:19:55. > :19:57.feeling that there is not a great deal of difference from them and the
:19:58. > :20:03.current Government on types of schools and the way education should
:20:04. > :20:08.proceed. -- from listening at the back. So what exactly is different
:20:09. > :20:14.about their policy? What Tristram Hunt's job is to do is to be open
:20:15. > :20:18.and honest about the shared agenda between us and the Tories. There are
:20:19. > :20:22.a lot of areas where there is clear water between us and Tristram Hunt
:20:23. > :20:26.as to turn his back, shared agenda, stop fighting it, and forge our
:20:27. > :20:32.agenda, which I think people will be really interested in. The art of
:20:33. > :20:38.Government, of course, is to balance competing pictures of policy, even
:20:39. > :20:41.inside your own party. It is fair to say that if Labour reflects and
:20:42. > :20:45.draws its own visions of a shared agenda, it might have to square that
:20:46. > :20:49.idea with teaching unions, who are already unhappy with the pace and
:20:50. > :20:54.tone of change that the Government had sketched out. What we sincerely
:20:55. > :20:58.hope is that if Labour were to form the next Government, that they would
:20:59. > :21:21.look at a serious review of accountability measures. That is
:21:22. > :21:23.really what ways on teachers every single day. Actually they would look
:21:24. > :21:26.at restoring the possibility, for example, of local councillors to be
:21:27. > :21:28.able to open schools. That seems eminently sensible. If they are not
:21:29. > :21:31.going to move back from the free schools and academies programme at
:21:32. > :21:33.the very least they need to say that academy chains will be inspected
:21:34. > :21:35.because at the moment they are not. Labour have balls in the air on
:21:36. > :21:38.education and are still throwing around precise policy detail. There
:21:39. > :21:40.are areas that they could grab hold of and seize possession. A focus on
:21:41. > :21:42.the rounding of the people, developing character, the impact of
:21:43. > :21:45.digitalisation on the classroom Also the role and handling of
:21:46. > :21:50.teachers in the system and the interdependence of schools. That is
:21:51. > :21:53.all still to play for. Currently I think the difference between the
:21:54. > :21:58.parties is that the coalition policies, while we do not agree with
:21:59. > :22:02.all of them, are clear and explicit, and Labour's policies are yet to be
:22:03. > :22:09.formulated in a way that everybody can understand clearly. I don't
:22:10. > :22:16.think that Tristram Hunt or Miliband will want to pick unnecessary fights
:22:17. > :22:22.before the election. I think we will have quite a red, pinkish fuzziness
:22:23. > :22:29.around the whole area of policy but after the election there will be
:22:30. > :22:33.grey steel from Tristram Hunt. But if fuzzy policy before the election
:22:34. > :22:37.is the lesson plan, it does rather risk interested voters being left in
:22:38. > :22:47.the dark. Tristram Hunt joins me now for the
:22:48. > :22:53.Sunday interview. Welcome. Thank you. Which of Michael
:22:54. > :22:57.Gove's school reforms would you repeal? We are not interested in
:22:58. > :23:00.throwing a change for the sake of it. When I go round schools,
:23:01. > :23:04.teachers have been through very aggressive changes in the last three
:23:05. > :23:07.years, so when it comes to some of the curriculum reforms we have seen,
:23:08. > :23:12.we are not interested in changing those for the sake of it. Where we
:23:13. > :23:17.are interested in making change is having a focus on technical and
:23:18. > :23:21.vocational education, making sure that the forgotten 15% is properly
:23:22. > :23:25.addressed in our education system. What we saw in your package was an
:23:26. > :23:28.interesting description of how we have seen structural reforms in the
:23:29. > :23:32.names of schools. Academies, free schools, all the rest of it.
:23:33. > :23:36.International evidence is clear that it is the quality of leadership of
:23:37. > :23:39.the headteachers and the quality of teaching in the classroom that
:23:40. > :23:44.transforms the prospects of young people. Instead of tinkering around
:23:45. > :23:47.the names of schools, we focus on teacher quality. Viewers will be
:23:48. > :24:04.shocked to note that this Government approves of unqualified teachers in
:24:05. > :24:06.the classroom. We want to have fully qualified, passionate, motivated
:24:07. > :24:08.teachers in the classroom. It sounds like you might not repeal anything.
:24:09. > :24:10.You might build on it and you might go in a different direction, with
:24:11. > :24:13.more emphasis on technological education but no major repeal of the
:24:14. > :24:17.reforms of Michael Gove? I don't think you want to waste energy on
:24:18. > :24:22.undoing reforms. In certain situations they build on Labour
:24:23. > :24:26.Party policy. We introduced the sponsored academy programmes and we
:24:27. > :24:32.began the Teach First programmes, and we began the London challenge
:24:33. > :24:36.which transformed the educational prospects of children in London We
:24:37. > :24:39.want to roll that out across the country. You have said there will be
:24:40. > :24:45.no more free schools, which Michael Gove introduced, but you will allow
:24:46. > :24:53.parents let academies, which just means free schools by a different
:24:54. > :24:57.name. No, because they will be in certain areas. We want to create new
:24:58. > :25:01.schools with parents. What we have at the moment is a destructive and
:25:02. > :25:05.market-driven approach to education. I was in Stroud on
:25:06. > :25:10.Thursday and plans for a big new school, in an area with surplus
:25:11. > :25:14.places, threatened to destroy the viability of local, rural schools.
:25:15. > :25:18.We want schools to work together in a network of partnership and
:25:19. > :25:22.challenge, rather than this destructive market-driven approach.
:25:23. > :25:47.You say that, but your version of free schools, I think, would only be
:25:48. > :25:50.allowed where there is a shortage of places. That means that where there
:25:51. > :25:52.is an excess of bad schools, parents will have no choice. They still have
:25:53. > :25:55.to send their kids to bad schools. And we have to transform bad schools
:25:56. > :25:58.and that was always the Labour way in Government. At the moment we just
:25:59. > :26:00.have an insertion of new schools. Schools currently underperforming
:26:01. > :26:02.are now underperforming even more. Children only have one chance at
:26:03. > :26:04.education. What about their time in school? Our focus is on the
:26:05. > :26:07.leadership of the headteacher and having quality teachers in the
:26:08. > :26:09.classroom. So they cannot set up new better schools and they have to go
:26:10. > :26:12.to the bad schools. Tony Blair said it should be easier for parents to
:26:13. > :26:15.set up new schools where they are dissatisfied with existing schools.
:26:16. > :26:19.You are not saying that. Even where they are dissatisfied with existing
:26:20. > :26:24.schools, they cannot set up free schools and you are reneging on
:26:25. > :26:28.that. We live in difficult economic circumstances where we have got to
:26:29. > :26:35.focus public finances on the areas of absolute need. We need 250,0 0
:26:36. > :26:39.new school places. 150,000 in London alone. We have to focus on building
:26:40. > :26:47.new schools and where we have to put them. And secondly... Absolutely
:26:48. > :26:52.not. Focusing on those schools. Making sure we turned them around,
:26:53. > :26:55.just as we did in Government. We have had a remarkable degree of
:26:56. > :26:59.waste under the free school programme. If you think of the free
:27:00. > :27:04.school in Derby, the Academy in Bradford, and as we saw in the
:27:05. > :27:08.Telegraph on Friday, the free schools in Suffolk, a great deal of
:27:09. > :27:11.waste of public money on underperforming free schools. That
:27:12. > :27:15.is not the Labour way. We focus on making sure that kids in schools at
:27:16. > :27:22.the moment get the best possible education. Except that in your own
:27:23. > :27:28.backyard, in Stoke, only 34% of secondary school pupils attend a
:27:29. > :27:33.good or outstanding school. 148 out of 150 of the worst performing local
:27:34. > :27:36.authorities and it is Labour-controlled. Still terrible
:27:37. > :27:42.schools and yet you say parents should not have the freedom to start
:27:43. > :27:46.a better school. We have great schools in Stoke-on-Trent as well.
:27:47. > :27:50.We face challenges, just as Wolverhampton does and the Isle of
:27:51. > :27:56.Wight and Lincolnshire. Just like large parts of the country. What is
:27:57. > :27:59.the solution to that? Making sure we share excellence among the existing
:28:00. > :28:03.schools and making sure we have quality leadership in schools. Those
:28:04. > :28:07.schools in Stoke-on-Trent are all academies. It is not a question only
:28:08. > :28:11.of structure but of leadership. It is also a question of going back to
:28:12. > :28:14.the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids are school
:28:15. > :28:50.ready when they get to school. To make sure they are reading to their
:28:51. > :28:52.children in the evening. We can t put it all on teachers. Parents have
:28:53. > :28:55.responsibilities. I understand that but you have told me Labour's policy
:28:56. > :28:57.would not be to set up new schools which parents hope will be better.
:28:58. > :29:00.Parents continue to send their kids to bad schools in areas like Stoke.
:29:01. > :29:03.Labour has had plenty of time to sort out these schools in Stoke and
:29:04. > :29:05.they are still among the worst performing in the country. You are
:29:06. > :29:08.condemning these parents to having to send their kids to bad schools.
:29:09. > :29:10.Where we have seen the sett ing up of Derby, Suffolk, we have seen that
:29:11. > :29:13.is not the simple solution. Is simply setting up a new is not a
:29:14. > :29:16.successful model. What works is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on
:29:17. > :29:18.Friday at a failing comprehensive is not a successful model. What works
:29:19. > :29:20.is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on Friday at a failing
:29:21. > :29:23.comprehensive school and now people are queueing round the block to get
:29:24. > :29:25.into it. You can turn around schools with the right leadership,
:29:26. > :29:29.passionate and motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the
:29:30. > :29:35.learning outcome of their kids. In the last few years of the Labour
:29:36. > :29:38.Government, only four kids from your this Government would set up the new
:29:39. > :29:40.school. In Birmingham, they got in a great headmaster and turned the
:29:41. > :29:43.school around and now people are queueing round the block to get into
:29:44. > :29:44.it. You can turnaround schools with the right leadership, passionate and
:29:45. > :29:47.motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the learning outcome of
:29:48. > :29:50.their kids. In the last few years of a Labour Government, only four kids
:29:51. > :29:53.from your area of and you had plenty of chances to put this right but
:29:54. > :29:56.only four got to the two and you had plenty of chances to put this right
:29:57. > :30:03.but only four got to the two leading universities. Traditionally young
:30:04. > :30:07.people could leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries,
:30:08. > :30:09.the steel industry, the traditionally young people could
:30:10. > :30:15.leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries, the steel
:30:16. > :30:20.industry, the but also to get an apprenticeship at Jaguar Land
:30:21. > :30:26.Rover, JCB, Rolls-Royce. That is why Ed Miliband's focus on the forgotten
:30:27. > :30:29.15%, which we have just not seen from this Government, focusing on
:30:30. > :30:51.technical and vocational pathways, is fundamental to Your headmaster
:30:52. > :30:59.was guiles Slaughter. Was he a good teacher? He He never taught me.
:31:00. > :31:03.Over 90% of teeners in the private sector are qualified. They look for
:31:04. > :31:09.not simply teachers with qualified teacher status. Teachers with MAs.
:31:10. > :31:11.Teachers who are improving them cephalitis. Becoming better
:31:12. > :31:20.educators. cephalitis. Becoming better
:31:21. > :31:24.teaching. You were taught by unqualified teachers. Your parents
:31:25. > :31:28.paid over ?15,000 a year for you being taught by unqualified
:31:29. > :31:32.teachers. Why did you make such a big deal of it? Because we've seen
:31:33. > :31:38.right around the world those education systems which focus on
:31:39. > :31:44.having the most qualified teachers perform the best. It cannot be right
:31:45. > :31:49.that anyone can simply turn up, as at the moment, have schools at
:31:50. > :31:54.veritising for unqualified teachers teaching in the classroom. We want
:31:55. > :32:00.the best qualified teachers with the deepest subject knowledge, for the
:32:01. > :32:06.passion in learning for their kids. It is absurd we are having arguments
:32:07. > :32:10.about this. Simply having a paper qualification doesn't make you a
:32:11. > :32:16.great teacher. Let me take you to Brighton college. It is gone from
:32:17. > :32:19.the 147th to the 18 18th best private school in the land. Fllt the
:32:20. > :32:41.headmaster says: This is the top Sundaytimes school
:32:42. > :32:48.of the year. The school in derby where this Government allowed
:32:49. > :32:52.unqualified teaching assist taints. We had teachers who could barely
:32:53. > :32:56.speak English. That is because if you have unqualified teachers you
:32:57. > :33:01.end up with a dangerous situation. The problem with that school was not
:33:02. > :33:07.unqualified teachers. People were running that school who were unfit
:33:08. > :33:10.to run a school. We have an issue about discipline and behaviour
:33:11. > :33:14.management in some of our schools. Some of the skills teachers gain
:33:15. > :33:19.through qualifications and learning is how to manage classes and get the
:33:20. > :33:23.best out of kids at every stage It doesn't end with a qualified teacher
:33:24. > :33:28.status. That's just the beginning. We want our teachers to have
:33:29. > :33:34.continue it will development. It is not good enough to have your initial
:33:35. > :33:40.teacher trainingaged work through your career for 30 years. You need
:33:41. > :33:45.continual learning. Learning how to deal with digital technology.
:33:46. > :33:50.Refresh your subject knowledge. As an historian I help teachers. You've
:33:51. > :33:56.taught as an unqualified teacher. Not in charge of a subject group. I
:33:57. > :34:01.give the odd lecture. I'm-y to go to as many schools as possible. I don't
:34:02. > :34:07.blame you. It is uplifting. Would you sack all unqualified teachers?
:34:08. > :34:14.We'd want them all to gain teacher status. What if they say no? If they
:34:15. > :34:20.are not interested in improving skills and deepening their knowledge
:34:21. > :34:27.they should not be in the classroom. If a free school or academy hired a
:34:28. > :34:31.teach thinking they are a great teacher but unqualified, if they are
:34:32. > :34:36.then forced by you to fire them they will be in breach of the law.
:34:37. > :34:40.They are being urged by us to make sure they have qualified teacher
:34:41. > :34:44.status. We've lots of unqualified teachers as long as they are on the
:34:45. > :34:49.pathway to making sure they are qualified. But if they say they
:34:50. > :34:53.don't want to do this, will you fire them? It is not an unreasonable
:34:54. > :34:57.suggestion is that the teachers in charge of our young people have
:34:58. > :35:03.qualifications to teach and inspire our young people particularly when
:35:04. > :35:10.we face global competition from Shanghai, Korea and so on. The head
:35:11. > :35:14.teacher of Brighton college finds incredibly inspeechational teachers
:35:15. > :35:20.who don't' necessarily have a teaching qualifications. It is a
:35:21. > :35:26.different skill to teach ten young nice boys and girls in Brighton to
:35:27. > :35:29.teaches 20 or 30 quids with challenging circumstances, special
:35:30. > :35:34.educational needs, different ability. Being a teacher at Brighton
:35:35. > :35:41.college is an easy gig in comparison to other schools. Where we want
:35:42. > :35:46.teachers to have a capacity to teach properly. Do you think Tristram
:35:47. > :35:53.could ever lead the Labour Party? I think Ed is a great leader, the
:35:54. > :35:56.reforms yesterday were a real sign for his leadership. And the fact
:35:57. > :36:01.David Owen, the man with a pre-history with our party is back
:36:02. > :36:06.with us. It is great. Even Gideon had to change his name to George.
:36:07. > :36:15.Have you thought of switching to Tommy or Tony? Maybe not Tony!
:36:16. > :36:20.Michael Foot was called Dingle Foot. I love the Labour because it accepts
:36:21. > :36:24.everybody from me to Len McCluskey. We are a big, broad happy family on
:36:25. > :36:29.our way to Government. Thank you very much.
:36:30. > :36:35.You're watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:36. > :36:40.Scotland who leave us for Sunday politics Scotland. In over 20
:36:41. > :36:43.minutes I'll look at the week ahead with our political panel. First The
:36:44. > :36:55.Sunday Politics where you are. Welcome. With me this week Paul
:36:56. > :36:59.Burstow, Liberal Democrat MP for Sutton and cheap and Tessa Jowell.
:37:00. > :37:05.Potential mayoral candidate next time round. We keep on being told.
:37:06. > :37:10.We'll look later at what one charity says is the four-followed rise in
:37:11. > :37:15.the use of food banks notice capital over the last two years. First,
:37:16. > :37:20.let's have a word on another post Olympic milestone reached this
:37:21. > :37:26.weekend. As the aquatic centre opens to the public. Most of the people
:37:27. > :37:32.who've seen it so far agree it looks impressive and that it is being
:37:33. > :37:43.priced reasonably with a swim costed between ?3.50 and ?4.50. The broad
:37:44. > :37:48.broader look of the Olympics says there's been little uptake in sport.
:37:49. > :37:55.It looks impressive. I wouldn't think so, it was part of the
:37:56. > :37:58.intention ten years' ago. Do you think we're up to speed and hitting
:37:59. > :38:03.the milestones at the time you expected? On the park? Absolutely.
:38:04. > :38:09.It is very easy to pocket achievement like this. But I think
:38:10. > :38:16.that the legacy company deserve huge credit for 9 fact we now have a new
:38:17. > :38:21.glorious park in East London. We have eight world-class venues which
:38:22. > :38:26.are open or about to be opened to the public. We have 3,000 homes in
:38:27. > :38:31.the Olympic Village. Nearly half of which are affordable. Run by
:38:32. > :38:35.triathlon Housing Association. ,000 families, as I understand it, have
:38:36. > :38:40.now moved in with another 3,000 homes promised for the north of the
:38:41. > :38:46.park. So no issues there. Paul, you're at the other end of London.
:38:47. > :38:49.It is not that you expected to get immediate physical legacy out of the
:38:50. > :38:54.games. When you observe, do you think things are moving as fast as
:38:55. > :39:00.they should? The real legacy has been the human legacy. The games
:39:01. > :39:05.makers recruited from Sutton, they enjoyed the volunteering spirit so
:39:06. > :39:10.much, they created a new charity in my area called the community makers.
:39:11. > :39:15.They are carrying on that legacy. What are they doing? They are
:39:16. > :39:22.working with the local authority. It is a real positive outcome. Do you
:39:23. > :39:27.agree as a Lord's committee report did just before Christmas, evidence
:39:28. > :39:35.of a sporting legacy or physical legacy is not there by any means
:39:36. > :39:39.yet? I'm celebrate celebrating Jo Rowsell's medal. That's another part
:39:40. > :39:42.of the ongoing legacy in the investment. Are you seeing
:39:43. > :39:49.particular evidence of more people taking up sport, facilities
:39:50. > :39:54.available in your patch? Come to keep park, they are fulling of
:39:55. > :39:59.people taking exercise, jogging Maybe it is just a Sutton thing
:40:00. > :40:05.What they doing in dull itch and Norwood? Lots. Are you happy with
:40:06. > :40:12.the physical sporting legacy? No, I'm not. I think the biggest mistake
:40:13. > :40:18.that the Government made, Michael Gove made, in relation shot Olympics
:40:19. > :40:24.was to end the dedicated funding for school sport. They say they've put
:40:25. > :40:29.it all back but there was a world-class system of getting kids
:40:30. > :40:33.playing sport in school. 60% of children were playing five hours of
:40:34. > :40:38.sport a week. The volume was increasing. You have to build
:40:39. > :40:42.participation from school. Physical education for very little children
:40:43. > :40:49.and then choice of sports for older children. I think they just became
:40:50. > :40:53.idealogical about it. They've back-tracked but a lot of progress
:40:54. > :40:57.was lost. According to some charities, many more people are
:40:58. > :41:03.having to use food banks in the capital to get enough to eat. Food
:41:04. > :41:10.poverty was key baited at the London Assembly. A group has been set up to
:41:11. > :41:17.look into the issue. This is Kingston food bank staffed
:41:18. > :41:21.by vowel untears. A growing number of people are turning to food banks
:41:22. > :41:28.to help. Former soldier Greg how he will is one of them. . Each week I'm
:41:29. > :41:33.left with ?10 a week to buy food. I was, because of food bank's help,
:41:34. > :41:39.the food they've helped me to get, it took a lot of pressure off me. I
:41:40. > :41:46.was able to sort debtors out and keep them at bay. Unemployed Thomas
:41:47. > :41:52.Cormac is also grateful for assistance. It's been two days since
:41:53. > :41:58.I've eaten. And these people have been helpful. They help a lot of
:41:59. > :42:03.people in my position. What would you do without them? I'd probably
:42:04. > :42:09.have to go shop lifting, believe it or not. Various charities and
:42:10. > :42:16.organisations arrange food banks which give food to people who can't
:42:17. > :42:23.afford it. Most are run for the it. Rustle trust. There were nearly
:42:24. > :42:31.12,000 visits. This financial year, those visits have passed 63,000
:42:32. > :42:36.That's an increase of nearly 40 % in the last two years. For food banks
:42:37. > :42:41.like this, you can't turn up and be given food. You have to be referred
:42:42. > :42:47.by social workers. You're given three days worth of food and you can
:42:48. > :42:52.return three or four times. We've seen increased usage across the
:42:53. > :42:57.board. We've more than 40 food bank projects in London. In areas like
:42:58. > :43:04.hackney or Tower Hamlets where the rate of child poverty is amongst the
:43:05. > :43:08.highest in the UK, the need for help is really substantial.
:43:09. > :43:15.Over a third of food bank stock goes to children for whom being hungry
:43:16. > :43:19.can have serious repercussions on their education, health and future
:43:20. > :43:23.employment. What is the answer? One major solution to tackling food
:43:24. > :43:27.poverty in London and hunger among our children would be to introduce
:43:28. > :43:32.university free school meals in all our primary schools. University free
:43:33. > :43:37.school meals have a huge Ben knit to children. They remove the stigma of
:43:38. > :43:40.being a child who is in receipt of free school meals, it means all
:43:41. > :43:47.children have better results in school. This would require over ?58
:43:48. > :43:51.million a year from the Greater London Authority. It was discussed
:43:52. > :43:57.by the London Assembly this week. I am a supporter of the whole free
:43:58. > :44:02.school meals idea. But so far, the mayor hasn't committed any money to
:44:03. > :44:05.it. Oxfam says it is important long-term solutions are
:44:06. > :44:10.investigated. It is shocking that in one of the word's still richest
:44:11. > :44:17.countries, people are reliant on the kindness of others for very basic
:44:18. > :44:22.things like food. We are supposed to have a social safety net so people
:44:23. > :44:27.don't have to live hand to mouth. Free school meals are a solution but
:44:28. > :44:33.critics say it is hardly the time to find the extra cash. Others argue it
:44:34. > :44:37.doesn't seem right there are an increasing number of residents like
:44:38. > :44:51.Greg and Thomas who can't afford to buy the food they need to Are you
:44:52. > :44:56.concerned about the proliferation of food banks in the capital? I am
:44:57. > :45:03.encouraged by the number of agencies coming forward to support who are in
:45:04. > :45:07.many cases in who are in many cases in Government is making partnerships
:45:08. > :45:12.with those and ensuring that we do refer people to the appropriate
:45:13. > :45:15.agencies so that people can be fed. You are encouraged that people have
:45:16. > :45:21.come forward so you are encouraged by the number of food banks? I am
:45:22. > :45:25.encouraged that people are getting involved in recognising that this is
:45:26. > :45:28.a real issue. The problem of poverty has existed in London for many years
:45:29. > :45:32.but it has become more acute since the recession and it is good that
:45:33. > :45:35.the Government is making partnerships with those and ensuring
:45:36. > :45:37.that we do refer people to the appropriate agencies so that people
:45:38. > :45:40.can be fed. You are encouraged that people have come forward so you are
:45:41. > :45:42.encouraged by the number of food banks? I am encouraged that people
:45:43. > :45:44.are getting involved in recognising that this is a real issue. The
:45:45. > :45:47.problem of poverty has existed in London for many years but it has
:45:48. > :45:49.become more acute since the course the money disappeared. Are you
:45:50. > :45:51.concerned that they are needed? Of course, but I am particularly
:45:52. > :45:55.encouraged by the fact that people at the Trussell Trust are pitching
:45:56. > :45:59.in the Labour part of the London assembly this week talked about
:46:00. > :46:03.universal free school meals for all primary children. Of course the
:46:04. > :46:08.coalition is committed to providing that for infant aged children. What
:46:09. > :46:10.do you think about the Labour part of the London assembly this week
:46:11. > :46:12.talked about universal free school meals for all primary children. Of
:46:13. > :46:20.course the coalition is committed to providing that for infant aged
:46:21. > :46:22.children. What do you think about I don't understand why asking London
:46:23. > :46:24.taxpayers to subsidise school meals for rich kids is going to help. That
:46:25. > :46:28.is the universality argument. If wealthy kids from wealthy families,
:46:29. > :46:34.with free school meals for wealthy kids from wealthy families, with
:46:35. > :46:38.free school. I don't see it and I don't think Londoners see it either.
:46:39. > :46:43.I think we should be targeting scarce resources on those people
:46:44. > :46:45.that need it. Some that doesn't help children who really need the
:46:46. > :46:48.dedicated funds. I don't see it and I don't think Londoners see it
:46:49. > :46:50.either. I think we should be targeting scarce resources on those
:46:51. > :46:53.people that need it. That four of ten could do without food. They are
:46:54. > :46:55.not wealthy but they don't qualify for free school children out of ten
:46:56. > :46:58.could do without food. They are not wealthy but they don't qualify for
:46:59. > :47:05.free school you pick out that small number that might be the wealthy
:47:06. > :47:10.would be guaranteed a meal. I think the commitment to targeting those
:47:11. > :47:17.who are from backgrounds where who are from backgrounds have not got
:47:18. > :47:22.the right amount pupil premium, is an important part of that. But I
:47:23. > :47:28.don't see how universality solves the problem. We should be fighting
:47:29. > :47:32.poverty not feeding rich kids. They can afford it themselves. This is,
:47:33. > :47:35.identified through things like the pupil premium, is an important part
:47:36. > :47:37.of that. But I don't see how universality solves the problem We
:47:38. > :47:39.should be fighting poverty not feeding rich kids. They can afford
:47:40. > :47:42.it themselves. This is taxpayers coming from ordinary Londoners, to
:47:43. > :47:51.pay for the children of people who are much wealthier than there they
:47:52. > :47:57.want people who can't afford it What do you think? That is a
:47:58. > :48:02.horrible analysis of what goes on in state schools in London today. What
:48:03. > :48:06.you are saying, Andrew, is that you would like to see kids whose
:48:07. > :48:09.families are Ron Social Security benefits, who may be in work but on
:48:10. > :48:11.tax credits taxation supporting people who can't afford it. What do
:48:12. > :48:14.you think? That is a horrible analysis of what goes on in state
:48:15. > :48:16.schools in London today. What you are saying, Andrew, is that you
:48:17. > :48:19.would like to see kids whose families are Ron Social Security
:48:20. > :48:22.benefits, who may be in work but on tax lined up and maybe they would be
:48:23. > :48:25.eligible for free school meals but they would be distinct and fantastic
:48:26. > :48:28.success the whole point about primary education, and this is why
:48:29. > :48:36.free school meals have been such a fantastic success in school after
:48:37. > :48:38.lunch properly fed and nourished first of all you have to ensure that
:48:39. > :48:45.every single child comes to school in the morning, and then continues
:48:46. > :48:53.school after lunch properly fed and thing as well about children growing
:48:54. > :49:00.that they are part of a community not distinguished by whose that they
:49:01. > :49:03.are part of a community not distinguished by know? How do they
:49:04. > :49:11.distinguish at the moment between those with support and those have
:49:12. > :49:14.more or less money. How do they know? How do they distinguish at the
:49:15. > :49:16.moment between those with support and those children on free school
:49:17. > :49:20.meals line-up separately from children paying for their meals
:49:21. > :49:32.Where does that happen? Where do you stand on this where does that
:49:33. > :49:37.happen? Where do you stand on at which school do they line-up
:49:38. > :49:42.receiving free school meals, it is those who do not claim. I don't
:49:43. > :49:46.entirely agree it is right to say that the reason there has been an
:49:47. > :49:51.increase in food is due to a range of things, not just one cause. There
:49:52. > :50:00.is undoubtedly is due to a range of things, not just one cause. There is
:50:01. > :50:17.undoubtedly to go to introducing free school meals for infant
:50:18. > :50:23.schools, and it would be great to. How can we afford in Southwark is
:50:24. > :50:30.such that I the success of the project in Southwark is such that I
:50:31. > :50:35.hope other authorities will do health Enabling them to use the
:50:36. > :50:39.education is to make sure they are properly nor itched. We have to
:50:40. > :50:43.recognise the biggest increase in food banks came under the last
:50:44. > :50:48.Government when it increased in 2,000 a #5 to over 40,000 in 20 0.
:50:49. > :51:02.Yet, that increase was ignored by the previous Government. A five fold
:51:03. > :51:06.increase coming to the... It is spreading taxpayers' money over
:51:07. > :51:09.wealthy people. Giving tack payer support to wealthy people. Is there
:51:10. > :51:15.any wonder were throughout out of office when you used taxpayers'
:51:16. > :51:19.money... Don't be so unpleasant Thank you very much. This week it
:51:20. > :51:22.was announced the number of passengers going through Heathrow
:51:23. > :51:28.Airport was open 3. 5% in the last year. It is running officially at
:51:29. > :51:34.98% capacity. Something you won t be surprised to learn the own owners
:51:35. > :51:42.suggest shows the need for another runway. Passenger traffic reached a
:51:43. > :51:49.record 72. 5 million in 2013. Up from 70 million the year before
:51:50. > :51:56.According to Heathrow, the aircraft were larger and fuller than in
:51:57. > :52:04.previous years. There are 470 nights departed and landed in 2013. So
:52:05. > :52:13.operating atst last year, Heathrow was short-listed as a location for a
:52:14. > :52:18.new runway. It was suggested to lengthening an existing runway at
:52:19. > :52:24.Heathrow and opening a new runway at Gatwick. The right place for the
:52:25. > :52:27.runway to go with the right support and services, from a social and
:52:28. > :52:32.economic point of view, would be to the eastern side of the capital The
:52:33. > :52:37.decision may now come in the second half of next year when the airport's
:52:38. > :52:43.commission is due to issue final recommendations on where a new
:52:44. > :52:46.runway should be built. Paul never liked Heathrow expanse before but
:52:47. > :52:51.you're coming round to seeing the business argument? Absolutely not.
:52:52. > :52:57.Before we talk about any expansion which we don't need to see at
:52:58. > :53:04.Heathrow, you need to look at unused slots around London. Stansted, 7%
:53:05. > :53:09.of its slots not used. Luton, 5 % of its slots not being used. Gatwick,
:53:10. > :53:18.12% not being used. So the short-list is not used. The capacity
:53:19. > :53:23.is not being used. Better trains into Stansted would help with space.
:53:24. > :53:28.We don't need fantasy islands. You don't need the Davis commission
:53:29. > :53:34.process? The Davis commission is looking longer term. We have this
:53:35. > :53:40.capacity now. Where will we be in 15 or 20 years' time. When we get
:53:41. > :53:46.there, we'll do Stansted, Gatwick. Then where? I want to see them do
:53:47. > :53:57.that before coming up with... Where do you feel now? If we used all of
:53:58. > :54:02.the capacity in London, then I would look at the area around Stansted and
:54:03. > :54:05.possibly expand. But we don't need to do that any time soon because we
:54:06. > :54:13.have this capacity already available. Tessa Jowell, where are
:54:14. > :54:18.you on this at the moment? Well waiting for the report. Yes, but
:54:19. > :54:24.what is your instinct? Let me be absolutely clear about this. I
:54:25. > :54:29.supported a third runway at Heathrow when I was in the Cabinet, let me be
:54:30. > :54:35.clear. I was persuaded of the case for more capacity. I think the
:54:36. > :54:39.question about whether or not Heathrow... And I think the
:54:40. > :54:43.consensus is that Heathrow is the only airport that can become a hub
:54:44. > :54:48.airport. I want to look at the economic case for that. Essentially
:54:49. > :54:52.what that means is that you can get on a plane at Heathrow and fly to
:54:53. > :54:57.more places in the world. What economic benefit does that bring us?
:54:58. > :55:01.What is the trade-off between economic gain and environmental
:55:02. > :55:05.destruction. You want to look at that more but at the moment you are
:55:06. > :55:10.quite happy to say that as things stand, you think the case is there
:55:11. > :55:17.and is made for at least one more runway at Heathrow? I am open to
:55:18. > :55:23.another runway at Heathrow but my mind would not be closed to looking
:55:24. > :55:29.at additional capacity at Gatwick. I don't think that the proposal for an
:55:30. > :55:32.estuary airport is really feasible. Would you like your party to go into
:55:33. > :55:37.the next election being more definite about what it supports say
:55:38. > :55:42.if you were the leader of the party? Would you be happy to lead an
:55:43. > :55:47.Heathrow expansion ticket? First of all we have to be in a position
:55:48. > :55:50.where we have the necessary information, economic,
:55:51. > :55:57.environmental, passenger information and so on, to make a decision. Once
:55:58. > :56:00.a decision is taken, it has got to stick. I think the important thing
:56:01. > :56:04.is that we get sufficient cross-party support to make it last.
:56:05. > :56:09.I understand that but from what you have seen so far you think Heathrow
:56:10. > :56:16.expansion is the best. I have said I am open-minded about that. Everybody
:56:17. > :56:21.is open-minded. Everybody is just saying they want to wait. But you
:56:22. > :56:25.have been in London politics for a long time. Being in London politics
:56:26. > :56:29.does not mean leaping to an answer in the absence of the facts. I have
:56:30. > :56:34.told you how I am going to form a judgement. I have told you that I
:56:35. > :56:40.supported a third runway as a member of the Cabinet, and the Cabinet took
:56:41. > :56:47.that decision. You seem pretty strung up on this. You are wrong. We
:56:48. > :56:51.have had five years in between and a further report commission which I am
:56:52. > :56:57.under obligation to honour and consider. Fair enough. And let's
:56:58. > :57:01.make use of the existing capacity in London's airports first. OK. We did
:57:02. > :57:07.not make much progress. We toured around the issues and did not get
:57:08. > :57:13.further forward. Here is the news in 60 seconds.
:57:14. > :57:15.Doreen Lawrence, the mother of murdered London teenager Stephen
:57:16. > :57:20.Lawrence has said she believes part of the police are still racist. She
:57:21. > :57:25.said some attitudes have not changed much. Stop and search measures
:57:26. > :57:29.continue to be unfair. 33 junctions where more than 25
:57:30. > :57:34.cyclists and pedestrians have been seriously injured or killed in the
:57:35. > :57:37.last three years are to have ?3 0 million spent on them. Transport for
:57:38. > :57:42.London said work would begin in the second half of the year.
:57:43. > :57:47.The Metropolitan Police has not made a convincing case for buying three
:57:48. > :57:50.water cannon. London assembly's police and crime committee says that
:57:51. > :57:55.with no specific intelligence of disorder it is not clear why there
:57:56. > :57:58.is a rush to get them. The hospital campaign in South West
:57:59. > :58:04.London delivered a petition to their MPs. They were protesting against a
:58:05. > :58:07.piece of legislation that they claim will give Government the right to
:58:08. > :58:17.close any hospital with 40 days notice.
:58:18. > :58:26.Briefly on this one, would you allow the Government to close the hospital
:58:27. > :58:33.because it made sense? To close a hospital? I think these decisions
:58:34. > :58:36.cannot be -- can only be taken on the basis of how you serve the
:58:37. > :58:41.community and save the most lives. I think that is the right basis for
:58:42. > :58:46.making judgements about any changes to hospitals. The problems in South
:58:47. > :58:49.West London are that it has all been badly botched and the arguments
:58:50. > :58:57.poorly delivered and so the public has not been brought with them. Said
:58:58. > :59:14.this is about people saying... It is changing provisions for what happens
:59:15. > :59:16.when hospital goes bust, put in place quite sensibly by the last
:59:17. > :59:19.Government and this Government is looking at adapting them. But it is
:59:20. > :59:21.nothing to do with a hospital that is not broke and is financially
:59:22. > :59:23.solvent. St Helier is going in the right direction financially. But are
:59:24. > :59:26.you convinced about that? It would give the Government the power to do
:59:27. > :59:31.that if it was not financially viable. Yes, no hospital is an
:59:32. > :59:35.island and you have to look at the whole picture, but it does have to
:59:36. > :59:41.involve the local authority. The minute that is not done, I press the
:59:42. > :59:42.Government to change it. Thank you both for being here. Andrew, back to
:59:43. > :59:55.you. This week grant Shap said he wanted
:59:56. > :00:01.to rebrand the Tories as the workers' party to show it can reach
:00:02. > :00:05.out to blue-collar workers. One Conservative Party MP said they
:00:06. > :00:13.should scrap what he said was their boring old logo. We asked him and
:00:14. > :00:23.two other independent MPs how they'd freshen up their logos.
:00:24. > :00:28.Aspiration's always been our core value. About helping people get on
:00:29. > :00:33.with life. Giving people ladders of opportunity. That's why our symbol
:00:34. > :00:38.must reflect our values of aspiration and why I'm calling for
:00:39. > :00:45.our symbol to be changed from a tree to a ladder which symbolises social
:00:46. > :00:50.mobility and stands up for everything conservatism represents.
:00:51. > :00:55.I like an he will fanned, an animal that never forgets. We're the only
:00:56. > :01:01.party which seems to remember what life was like before the NHS and
:01:02. > :01:05.minimum wage and the global financial crash was caused by too
:01:06. > :01:10.little regulation not too much. We have a leader who can spot the
:01:11. > :01:16.elephant in the room, the lack of women on the Tory frontbench. The
:01:17. > :01:22.republicans in America have had the same idea. Theirs is a suspicious
:01:23. > :01:27.blue. Our would be deepest red. We love our Liberal Democrat bird. Mrs
:01:28. > :01:32.Thatcher called it the dead parrot when we launched it. We won the
:01:33. > :01:37.Eastbourne by-election off the Tories very soon aftered with.
:01:38. > :01:42.Perhaps it feels like we're in a coalition cage but we're escaping
:01:43. > :01:46.that soon. Why does it fly to the right? Most Liberal Democrats would
:01:47. > :01:54.want it to fly to the left. I hope it will soon.
:01:55. > :01:59.Interesting there. Let's stick with the Robert Hall pin one. He was
:02:00. > :02:05.being serious. The others were fun. It is interesting that talking about
:02:06. > :02:11.appealing to the blue collared vote, the upper working class, lower
:02:12. > :02:15.middle class, curiously now neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great
:02:16. > :02:23.cut through with these people. But in wanting to be the Workers Party,
:02:24. > :02:29.how do you square that with choosing five old Etonians to draw up four
:02:30. > :02:35.next manifesto. Labour said one of the things was cutting inheritance
:02:36. > :02:38.tax, after all their priorities they went to privilege rather than earned
:02:39. > :02:43.income. Rebranding is not enough. The one question the modernisers
:02:44. > :02:50.never asked themselves when they took party ten years ago is the
:02:51. > :02:53.thing we know as the Conservative Party, salvageable as a brand? I'm
:02:54. > :02:59.beginning to think it isn't. If you look at all public opinion research,
:03:00. > :03:05.there are lots of people in this contrary with Conservative views.
:03:06. > :03:10.They won't vote Tory or contemplate the possibility of voting Tory. Can
:03:11. > :03:16.we get over the electoral problems by relaunching as a different
:03:17. > :03:21.pro-business, pro-worker party. That means new name, new logo. It will
:03:22. > :03:26.mean new people as well. If you say you're on the sides of what Thatcher
:03:27. > :03:30.called the strivers, the people themselves want to see you have
:03:31. > :03:35.strivers in the people who run your party so you know what we've been
:03:36. > :03:40.through, the struggles we've had. How many of the six drawing up the
:03:41. > :03:46.manifesto have had ever a mortgage. The one who's not an old Etonian
:03:47. > :03:51.went to St Paul's. He's a day schoolboy! It is interesting and it
:03:52. > :03:56.was funny you mentioned an elephant. Don't think of an elephant as the
:03:57. > :04:00.title of that book. Calling it the Workers Party draws attention to the
:04:01. > :04:05.Tories biggest electoral weakness. The idea they are a class apart Out
:04:06. > :04:10.of touch. I think it is interesting, they have identified their elections
:04:11. > :04:19.are won or lost by this particular demo graphic of the C 1, and C .
:04:20. > :04:24.Mrs Thatcher got them by the shed load, Tony Blair got them. His
:04:25. > :04:30.failure in 2010 is the reason David Cameron didn't win an overall
:04:31. > :04:34.majority. I'm disappointed with the ladder. You should have a hammer or
:04:35. > :04:39.sickle! The Conservatives have a terrible brand problem. You heard
:04:40. > :04:43.them explaining why they did badly in the Wythenshawe by-election,
:04:44. > :04:47.saying there's quite a large council estate there In 1961, I think the
:04:48. > :04:53.Conservatives won a by-election back then, they were getting through to
:04:54. > :04:56.those sort of voters. There is not a single Conservative councillor in
:04:57. > :05:03.Manchester. They have this terrible problem. You're right for them to
:05:04. > :05:08.pick up on the five Etonians writing their manifesto. David Cameron sir
:05:09. > :05:16.rounding himself with his own. He doesn't have to do that. I seas
:05:17. > :05:24.things like isn't Robert Halpen great. He decides and has his own.
:05:25. > :05:28.He has some more slightly common people from St Paul's! One of the
:05:29. > :05:33.ways the Conservatives hoped to broaden their appeal is the tougher
:05:34. > :05:39.line on immigration. We learned net immigration is rising substantially.
:05:40. > :05:45.Back up over 200,000. Nigel Farage of UKIP wrapped up the rhetoric In
:05:46. > :05:55.scores of our cities and market towns, this country, in a short
:05:56. > :06:01.space of time, has become N'Zonzi rkable whether it is --
:06:02. > :06:07.unrecognisable. Whether it is the impact on local schools and
:06:08. > :06:11.hospitals. In many parts of England you don't hear English spoken, this
:06:12. > :06:17.is not the kind of the community we want to leave to our children and
:06:18. > :06:23.grandchildren. Helen, maybe people, I assume, will love the sentiments.
:06:24. > :06:30.Others will say, this is getting... It is going down a dangerous road.
:06:31. > :06:37.Nigel Farage's wife is German and he shares a flat with Godfully Bloom,
:06:38. > :06:44.nobody knows what he's saying half of the time. You can handle the
:06:45. > :06:54.letters from Yorkshire. Alex Salmond does not make his case on Scotland
:06:55. > :07:01.for the Scottish. Let's put aside whether the policy's right or wrong.
:07:02. > :07:08.How bad, by the Tories own lights, is the fact the net figure for
:07:09. > :07:13.immigration went up 60,000? It looks really bad. If I was a Tory
:07:14. > :07:18.strategist, I'd be philosophical about it. Immigration, even if they
:07:19. > :07:23.were meeting the target, I don't think the public would believe it.
:07:24. > :07:28.It is like crime a few years ago, the crime rates had been declining
:07:29. > :07:34.for the best part of 20 years but the fear of crime remains high.
:07:35. > :07:38.There's such a degree of cynicism that regardless of your
:07:39. > :07:44.administrative record in Government, the public will remain hostile to
:07:45. > :07:47.you. This is where Nigel Farage can be potent. He said it is not about
:07:48. > :07:55.numbers. It is about community. It is about people seeing their
:07:56. > :07:59.communities change. And in the Sunday Telegraph, it was said this
:08:00. > :08:03.isn't a dog whistle, a it is a meaty bone for a bull terrier. The problem
:08:04. > :08:08.for the Government on these figures is we know why the net migration
:08:09. > :08:13.figures are not looking good. They got down the non-EU figures but the
:08:14. > :08:19.EU figures are going up. From Italy and Spain as their economies tanked,
:08:20. > :08:24.people came here. If he hadn't made such a big deal of the numbers, the
:08:25. > :08:26.Tories, I mean, you could present this as a huge success story. If you
:08:27. > :08:31.believe immigration was good for the country. You would say it doesn t
:08:32. > :08:34.matter what Labour says, the best and the brightest young people from
:08:35. > :08:39.all over Europe are voting with their feet to come to Britain. But
:08:40. > :08:44.you never hear that case being made and certainly not by Labour. They
:08:45. > :08:47.acknowledge although immigration is best in the abstract for the
:08:48. > :08:52.economy, people don't feel it in their daily lives. There's a huge
:08:53. > :08:56.vacuum for the case where immigration should be in our public
:08:57. > :09:01.life. I remember a time when the economy was in such decline there
:09:02. > :09:06.was a rush to the door in the sixties and seventies. Now we are
:09:07. > :09:11.claiming our economy's doing better than any of the other major
:09:12. > :09:15.economies bar Germany, people want to join in our success. London was a
:09:16. > :09:23.declining city until the mid-eighties. Theresa May cannot be
:09:24. > :09:27.honest. She was proposing a cap on immigration. Not going to happen.
:09:28. > :09:33.Today she is saying maybe people from poorer member states cannot
:09:34. > :09:37.come in until their economies grow. That's future accession states.
:09:38. > :09:42.That's Turkey in ten years' time It is causing divisions with the
:09:43. > :09:46.coalition. She's bashing Vince Cable. You often see Liberal
:09:47. > :09:50.Democrats bashing the Tories. You don't often see a Tory minister bash
:09:51. > :09:54.Vince Cable. She does on the immigration figures. He thought they
:09:55. > :10:00.were good news. Last week, Vince responded to the news by saying it
:10:01. > :10:04.was a policy he was happy for the gift to flunk. The problem was going
:10:05. > :10:09.for a cap. There are six moving parts. UK citizens leaving, coming
:10:10. > :10:16.back. EU citizens leaving and coming back and then third party nationals.
:10:17. > :10:23.And students coming to study. Of course. You only have control over
:10:24. > :10:31.the EU citizens. Have you to clamp down on ace strayian, Chinese or
:10:32. > :10:39.American graduates. They should have gone for the Australian points
:10:40. > :10:47.system. I don't have a pure cap on numbers just background etc. Tim
:10:48. > :10:50.Farran said in the European election either vogue Liberal Democrat or
:10:51. > :10:55.UKIP. He turned that to his advantage. It is hopeful but he s
:10:56. > :11:05.come up with a way to spin this Labour has his special conference.
:11:06. > :11:11.Was it or was it not an event? Not sure it was the biggest moment in
:11:12. > :11:17.the party since 1918. But things fell apart in the special conference
:11:18. > :11:21.in 1981. 2004 got another special conference. Who's on board? David
:11:22. > :11:26.Owen who founded the gang of four. He's not joined but he's given them
:11:27. > :11:31.money. He's not going to sit with them in the Lord's. He's given
:11:32. > :11:38.money. They lost the gang of four. Back comes David Owen. Not historic?
:11:39. > :11:43.Why would he want it to be more significant than it was. There's a
:11:44. > :11:48.tendency to see him taking the fight to his party. Why would he want
:11:49. > :11:55.that? The fact it has not pleased Grant Shapps is not a test to see
:11:56. > :12:06.whether this has worked. It has been described as an historic moment and
:12:07. > :12:11.incremental of what John did. The trade union block voters disappeared
:12:12. > :12:19.a long time ago. They still have 50% of the vote. But 2,000 of union
:12:20. > :12:24.members voting for this guy has gone. It is a reform from 20 years
:12:25. > :12:29.ago. Welcome but not historic. Ed Miliband's stored up trouble. Len
:12:30. > :12:34.McCluskey wants a million new homes and answered to the benefit caps is
:12:35. > :12:39.not reconcilable with the deficit reduction strategy. In five years'
:12:40. > :12:44.time if there is a Labour Government it becomes very difficult. We should
:12:45. > :12:48.keep an eye on it? Always. Labour Party process is never ending.
:12:49. > :12:55.Unlike this programme. That's all from us today. Continuing reports of
:12:56. > :12:59.events in the Ukraine on the BBC News Channel. There's no Daily
:13:00. > :13:04.Politics tomorrow because of cover Arg of the Nelson Mandela memorial
:13:05. > :13:10.service at Westminster Abbey on BBC Two live. We'll be back on the Daily
:13:11. > :13:15.Politics on Tuesday at midday. We'll be back here next week with the Work
:13:16. > :13:18.and Pensions Secretary, Ian Smith. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday
:13:19. > :13:36.Politics.