:00:37. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:47. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:53.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:54. > :00:59.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:01:00. > :01:02.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:03. > :01:13.They could be heading for electoral oblivion. We'll be asking why.
:01:14. > :01:18.In London, changes to the authority which runs the capital's Fire
:01:19. > :01:19.Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his
:01:20. > :01:28.critics. And with me, as always, the most
:01:29. > :01:32.useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually
:01:33. > :01:36.obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our
:01:37. > :01:44.chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a
:01:45. > :01:51.plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be
:01:52. > :01:53.tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the
:01:54. > :01:56.Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be
:01:57. > :02:01.no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent
:02:02. > :02:04.Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't
:02:05. > :02:09.necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were
:02:10. > :02:15.delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.
:02:16. > :02:18.The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already
:02:19. > :02:23.beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's
:02:24. > :02:25.speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary
:02:26. > :02:34.Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal
:02:35. > :02:39.Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a
:02:40. > :02:49.sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something
:02:50. > :02:54.of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice
:02:55. > :03:00.played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an
:03:01. > :03:05.unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for
:03:06. > :03:08.certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union
:03:09. > :03:12.actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any
:03:13. > :03:16.big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly
:03:17. > :03:19.named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the
:03:20. > :03:23.Governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney, outlining all the
:03:24. > :03:27.reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you
:03:28. > :03:31.have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury
:03:32. > :03:35.himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never
:03:36. > :03:42.advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other
:03:43. > :03:45.and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much
:03:46. > :03:49.against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All
:03:50. > :03:53.the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating
:03:54. > :03:57.with a new independent Scotland a deal is to be done, Faslane where
:03:58. > :04:03.the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that
:04:04. > :04:07.is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the
:04:08. > :04:10.nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a
:04:11. > :04:15.monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible
:04:16. > :04:20.isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is
:04:21. > :04:24.more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear
:04:25. > :04:28.advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic
:04:29. > :04:32.best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any
:04:33. > :04:41.more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put
:04:42. > :04:49.the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes
:04:50. > :04:52.when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a
:04:53. > :04:57.problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.
:04:58. > :05:01.But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently
:05:02. > :05:04.promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to
:05:05. > :05:10.remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious
:05:11. > :05:14.mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got
:05:15. > :05:27.you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as
:05:28. > :05:29.running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are
:05:30. > :05:31.narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves.
:05:32. > :05:37.This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the
:05:38. > :05:42.polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as
:05:43. > :05:47.part of the United Kingdom. Yes there were a couple of polls last
:05:48. > :05:52.week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of
:05:53. > :05:58.all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting
:05:59. > :06:01.intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of
:06:02. > :06:06.people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed
:06:07. > :06:12.to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to
:06:13. > :06:16.remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a
:06:17. > :06:22.yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew
:06:23. > :06:25.towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if
:06:26. > :06:31.your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking
:06:32. > :06:35.into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not
:06:36. > :06:40.impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely
:06:41. > :06:44.the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole
:06:45. > :06:48.argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy
:06:49. > :07:05.lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen It
:07:06. > :07:07.can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least
:07:08. > :07:10.because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the
:07:11. > :07:12.amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will
:07:13. > :07:15.be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social
:07:16. > :07:20.media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we
:07:21. > :07:27.have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as
:07:28. > :07:32.theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave
:07:33. > :07:39.you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think
:07:40. > :07:44.they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the
:07:45. > :07:48.agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if
:07:49. > :07:55.there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold
:07:56. > :07:59.of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,
:08:00. > :08:03.when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there
:08:04. > :08:06.was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is
:08:07. > :08:12.still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after
:08:13. > :08:15.the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next
:08:16. > :08:20.year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,
:08:21. > :08:23.when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked
:08:24. > :08:28.about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to
:08:29. > :08:32.get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be
:08:33. > :08:36.on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think
:08:37. > :08:41.that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his
:08:42. > :08:46.word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with
:08:47. > :08:50.giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or
:08:51. > :08:54.having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they
:08:55. > :08:59.have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there
:09:00. > :09:03.is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his
:09:04. > :09:07.story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence of
:09:08. > :09:12.course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in
:09:13. > :09:14.London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with
:09:15. > :09:22.Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop
:09:23. > :09:30.another country using its. That is different. All London can really do
:09:31. > :09:33.is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The
:09:34. > :09:37.interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.
:09:38. > :09:42.Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out
:09:43. > :09:48.of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's
:09:49. > :09:51.financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of
:09:52. > :09:55.injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial
:09:56. > :09:59.crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it
:10:00. > :10:02.not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the
:10:03. > :10:06.Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign
:10:07. > :10:09.which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the
:10:10. > :10:13.resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists
:10:14. > :10:19.having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in
:10:20. > :10:22.the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that
:10:23. > :10:28.he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a
:10:29. > :10:33.bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The
:10:34. > :10:41.polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going
:10:42. > :10:45.their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the
:10:46. > :10:53.gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The
:10:54. > :10:56.plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better
:10:57. > :10:59.Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they
:11:00. > :11:03.get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London
:11:04. > :11:06.Police say, give us a couple of million.
:11:07. > :11:09.Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when
:11:10. > :11:18.North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey
:11:19. > :11:25.has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have
:11:26. > :11:31.been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95 of
:11:32. > :11:35.the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit
:11:36. > :11:40.coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation
:11:41. > :11:43.by the competition and markets authorities which will look at
:11:44. > :11:48.whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave
:11:49. > :11:52.investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not
:11:53. > :11:56.spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home
:11:57. > :12:01.might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the
:12:02. > :12:06.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:07. > :12:11.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016
:12:12. > :12:16.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:17. > :12:22.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:23. > :12:25.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:26. > :12:33.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:34. > :12:38.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:39. > :12:45.capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We
:12:46. > :12:49.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:50. > :12:54.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:55. > :13:00.with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up
:13:01. > :13:06.massively. Investment has been billion a year. Last year was a
:13:07. > :13:11.record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing
:13:12. > :13:14.it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment
:13:15. > :13:19.massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights
:13:20. > :13:21.on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing
:13:22. > :13:27.anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we
:13:28. > :13:33.have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We
:13:34. > :13:36.have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will
:13:37. > :13:40.come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that
:13:41. > :13:49.we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have
:13:50. > :13:55.one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having
:13:56. > :14:00.major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The
:14:01. > :14:04.figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.
:14:05. > :14:09.Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from
:14:10. > :14:14.interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are
:14:15. > :14:20.able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a
:14:21. > :14:26.mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on
:14:27. > :14:32.that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to
:14:33. > :14:38.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:39. > :14:43.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:44. > :14:49.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:50. > :14:56.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:57. > :15:00.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:15:01. > :15:03.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:04. > :15:06.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:07. > :15:11.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:12. > :15:16.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:17. > :15:21.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:22. > :15:35.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:36. > :15:37.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:38. > :15:40.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:41. > :15:50.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:51. > :15:56.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:57. > :16:01.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power
:16:02. > :16:04.supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those
:16:05. > :16:07.figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power
:16:08. > :16:12.plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,
:16:13. > :16:16.nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment but
:16:17. > :16:22.we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to
:16:23. > :16:26.date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare
:16:27. > :16:31.capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour
:16:32. > :16:34.Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing
:16:35. > :16:38.significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also
:16:39. > :16:42.remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at
:16:43. > :16:49.15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average
:16:50. > :16:54.margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since
:16:55. > :16:58.privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high
:16:59. > :17:04.margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have
:17:05. > :17:09.historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make
:17:10. > :17:13.sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described
:17:14. > :17:16.to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term
:17:17. > :17:39.policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,
:17:40. > :17:44.policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the
:17:45. > :17:49.chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.
:17:50. > :17:58.What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they
:17:59. > :18:02.would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been
:18:03. > :18:07.working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a
:18:08. > :18:11.reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best
:18:12. > :18:18.not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk
:18:19. > :18:21.about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are
:18:22. > :18:26.prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for
:18:27. > :18:30.them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to
:18:31. > :18:33.off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that
:18:34. > :18:36.something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these
:18:37. > :18:41.contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of
:18:42. > :18:47.diesel generators to click into haven't you? There's a whole range
:18:48. > :18:55.of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed
:18:56. > :19:04.gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent
:19:05. > :19:08.generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building
:19:09. > :19:13.a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy
:19:14. > :19:17.situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now
:19:18. > :19:21.and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable
:19:22. > :19:25.targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition
:19:26. > :19:29.commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will
:19:30. > :19:33.see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent
:19:34. > :19:40.generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from
:19:41. > :19:45.the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that
:19:46. > :19:50.company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies
:19:51. > :19:53.wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say
:19:54. > :19:57.Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We
:19:58. > :20:00.are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for
:20:01. > :20:04.renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power
:20:05. > :20:08.stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse
:20:09. > :20:15.is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say
:20:16. > :20:20.that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas
:20:21. > :20:23.plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch
:20:24. > :20:28.for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the
:20:29. > :20:31.pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment
:20:32. > :20:33.including new offshore wind investment and none of what you re
:20:34. > :20:39.talking about will come before 020 anyway. That's simply not true. The
:20:40. > :20:44.balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the
:20:45. > :20:47.mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new
:20:48. > :20:54.power, will happen way before 2 20, so that's not true. But doesn't
:20:55. > :20:57.answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of
:20:58. > :21:03.this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said
:21:04. > :21:07.permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to
:21:08. > :21:12.do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's
:21:13. > :21:15.very sensible. Medium-term plan auctioning for new power stations.
:21:16. > :21:19.That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent
:21:20. > :21:25.plant being built, and the long term plan, to stimulator long-term
:21:26. > :21:29.investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the
:21:30. > :21:34.end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your
:21:35. > :21:38.painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how
:21:39. > :21:43.you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive
:21:44. > :21:49.sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a
:21:50. > :21:52.deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012
:21:53. > :22:10.prices. All of that puts up our bills. First
:22:11. > :22:15.of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has
:22:16. > :22:19.been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas
:22:20. > :22:24.prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future
:22:25. > :22:27.-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,
:22:28. > :22:31.many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come
:22:32. > :22:35.online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You
:22:36. > :22:40.have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from
:22:41. > :22:48.this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been
:22:49. > :22:52.going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not
:22:53. > :22:56.recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but
:22:57. > :23:00.more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but
:23:01. > :23:06.it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In
:23:07. > :23:08.those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep
:23:09. > :23:14.price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If
:23:15. > :23:19.gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear
:23:20. > :23:24.and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that
:23:25. > :23:28.power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on
:23:29. > :23:32.this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of
:23:33. > :23:38.offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%
:23:39. > :23:44.in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,
:23:45. > :23:47.it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control
:23:48. > :23:55.framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,
:23:56. > :24:04.Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new
:24:05. > :24:10.factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are
:24:11. > :24:13.saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked
:24:14. > :24:18.about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would
:24:19. > :24:23.come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone
:24:24. > :24:27.higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in
:24:28. > :24:33.the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a
:24:34. > :24:38.few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two
:24:39. > :24:41.years, I said a few years. That s what we are projecting. They will
:24:42. > :24:45.come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this
:24:46. > :24:49.example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with
:24:50. > :24:58.they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down
:24:59. > :25:04.for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation
:25:05. > :25:06.because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal
:25:07. > :25:13.with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% 15%
:25:14. > :25:17.every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your
:25:18. > :25:21.energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are
:25:22. > :25:26.talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you
:25:27. > :25:32.quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's
:25:33. > :25:35.the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,
:25:36. > :25:41.dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the
:25:42. > :25:48.retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low
:25:49. > :25:53.return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you.
:25:54. > :25:57.Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right
:25:58. > :26:01.party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so
:26:02. > :26:04.long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be
:26:05. > :26:06.speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first
:26:07. > :26:10.here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment
:26:11. > :26:13.in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at
:26:14. > :26:16.their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They
:26:17. > :26:20.already were the second largest party in a London council and had a
:26:21. > :26:31.London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties
:26:32. > :26:35.their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring
:26:36. > :26:37.success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded
:26:38. > :26:42.and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty
:26:43. > :26:45.retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that
:26:46. > :26:54.retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of
:26:55. > :26:58.those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were
:26:59. > :27:01.performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller
:27:02. > :27:05.parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they
:27:06. > :27:09.didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the
:27:10. > :27:14.middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities
:27:15. > :27:18.for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the
:27:19. > :27:21.outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 20 6 in
:27:22. > :27:25.Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop
:27:26. > :27:27.of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking
:27:28. > :27:37.up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's
:27:38. > :27:39.because of all the different nationality people moving in the
:27:40. > :27:44.area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived
:27:45. > :27:51.there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,
:27:52. > :27:56.they will get elected over here When I came to Barking, Dagenham and
:27:57. > :28:00.Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the
:28:01. > :28:04.local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now
:28:05. > :28:08.they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,
:28:09. > :28:13.you will find among the older white working-class population concerned
:28:14. > :28:18.that the BNP claim to represent everyone says they are nowhere. So
:28:19. > :28:24.what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,
:28:25. > :28:29.we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of
:28:30. > :28:36.extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as
:28:37. > :28:40.she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a
:28:41. > :28:44.single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would
:28:45. > :28:47.stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2 10
:28:48. > :28:51.was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to
:28:52. > :28:59.find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new
:29:00. > :29:02.political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.
:29:03. > :29:06.Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs
:29:07. > :29:12.and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,
:29:13. > :29:16.BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe
:29:17. > :29:20.that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the
:29:21. > :29:25.difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all
:29:26. > :29:30.get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP
:29:31. > :29:34.didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they
:29:35. > :29:38.will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't
:29:39. > :29:42.got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow
:29:43. > :29:45.MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this
:29:46. > :29:54.programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was
:29:55. > :30:08.after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.
:30:09. > :30:13.Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had
:30:14. > :30:17.already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was
:30:18. > :30:25.a national platform for the BNP something they felt they had the
:30:26. > :30:32.right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment
:30:33. > :30:36.for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on
:30:37. > :30:40.national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national
:30:41. > :30:43.force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for
:30:44. > :30:47.the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult.
:30:48. > :30:55.And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday
:30:56. > :31:00.Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the
:31:01. > :31:06.land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not
:31:07. > :31:11.true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect The
:31:12. > :31:16.party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that
:31:17. > :31:22.the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly
:31:23. > :31:26.a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate
:31:27. > :31:39.to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --
:31:40. > :31:43.were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.
:31:44. > :31:49.You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or
:31:50. > :31:55.more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests
:31:56. > :32:00.and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point
:32:01. > :32:05.about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat
:32:06. > :32:11.to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have
:32:12. > :32:16.co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly
:32:17. > :32:20.had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is
:32:21. > :32:27.unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your
:32:28. > :32:31.sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see
:32:32. > :32:36.the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in
:32:37. > :32:46.decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you
:32:47. > :32:59.describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and
:33:00. > :33:03.other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking
:33:04. > :33:08.and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What
:33:09. > :33:13.Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white
:33:14. > :33:17.indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how
:33:18. > :33:22.they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well
:33:23. > :33:26.elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your
:33:27. > :33:34.party is heading for bankruptcy No, it is not. It is over. You would
:33:35. > :33:38.like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in
:33:39. > :33:44.deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no
:33:45. > :33:53.way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then
:33:54. > :33:58.you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be
:33:59. > :34:06.annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP
:34:07. > :34:14.were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are
:34:15. > :34:20.not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in
:34:21. > :34:26.politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to
:34:27. > :34:31.speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at
:34:32. > :34:36.the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be
:34:37. > :34:41.here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying
:34:42. > :34:45.to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why
:34:46. > :34:54.can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in
:34:55. > :35:01.Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We
:35:02. > :35:06.decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.
:35:07. > :35:09.Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you
:35:10. > :35:16.cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs
:35:17. > :35:21.are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections the
:35:22. > :35:25.problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the
:35:26. > :35:30.National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,
:35:31. > :35:34.that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and
:35:35. > :35:41.how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years
:35:42. > :35:45.ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going
:35:46. > :35:48.to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is
:35:49. > :35:52.going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems
:35:53. > :35:57.Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with
:35:58. > :36:02.it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the
:36:03. > :36:07.weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a
:36:08. > :36:11.single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to
:36:12. > :36:17.protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were
:36:18. > :36:20.on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they
:36:21. > :36:23.could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed.
:36:24. > :36:26.Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:27. > :36:32.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday
:36:33. > :36:35.Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead. First
:36:36. > :36:45.though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:36:46. > :36:55.Hello and welcome from us. I'm joined by Barry Gardner, Labour MP
:36:56. > :36:58.for Brent North and Gary Barwell, MP for Croydon Central. Coming up
:36:59. > :37:02.later, we look at a blazing row over the Mayor's proposal to change the
:37:03. > :37:08.make-up of the body which the London Fire Brigade. Let's kick off with a
:37:09. > :37:11.quick word on that other emergency service, the police. Met
:37:12. > :37:16.Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe says he wants the law is a
:37:17. > :37:19.recruitment change that for every white officer employed in London,
:37:20. > :37:26.there must also be won from an ethnic minority. I would argue, make
:37:27. > :37:29.it 50-50. Even though we are recruiting now, one in five of our
:37:30. > :37:35.recruits will be from a minority, at that rate, we will not get there. I
:37:36. > :37:43.think 50-50 for a short time would be a good idea. What you think of
:37:44. > :37:49.that? I think you have got to analyse the problem the Commissioner
:37:50. > :37:53.is trying to address. With only 10% of net officers from black and
:37:54. > :37:58.ethnic minorities, yet the population in London that is black
:37:59. > :38:01.and ethnic minority is actually 55%. That is substantially out of kilter
:38:02. > :38:07.with the rest of the country where even there it is not good enough.
:38:08. > :38:10.You have 5% police officers to 4% as a whole but in London it is
:38:11. > :38:15.staggeringly out of kilter. It is not that these people are not coming
:38:16. > :38:21.forward. People from ethnic minority groups are. 37 cents of applicants
:38:22. > :38:26.are from ethnic minorities. I think it is an imaginative way of trying
:38:27. > :38:31.to take some positive action and trying to send a message out to
:38:32. > :38:37.ethnic minority communities that the Met Police wants to look like the
:38:38. > :38:43.community it serves. Gary? I agree. It is a major issue for people in
:38:44. > :38:47.London. People watching will be sceptical. If you have a police
:38:48. > :38:52.force which represents the diverse communities which live in London, it
:38:53. > :38:58.will be more trusted. It will be able to do a more effective job at
:38:59. > :39:04.tackling crime. The Mets have made progress. I think it is an idea
:39:05. > :39:09.worth looking at. It has been done in Northern Ireland. There is a
:39:10. > :39:13.precedent as a temporary thing to change of these force which was out
:39:14. > :39:17.of character with the community it is policing. I think this is a real
:39:18. > :39:23.issue in London which needs addressing. Do both of you or either
:39:24. > :39:28.of you also have concerns that it is not just the ethnicity of offices,
:39:29. > :39:32.it is where they live increasingly. I heard of a senior officer say this
:39:33. > :39:35.week that many of his officers do not live in London, they are in the
:39:36. > :39:40.home counties so it is something they are having to do to people
:39:41. > :39:43.Many people are commuting from outside. It puts a strain on them
:39:44. > :39:48.because the public transport is not there when they are coming in on
:39:49. > :39:51.shiftwork. I know when I was doing the police Parliamentary scheme
:39:52. > :39:54.many of the people I was working alongside as an officer in the Met
:39:55. > :40:00.at that time, were actually commuting in from the Home Counties.
:40:01. > :40:07.There is a cost of living question as well. It is not criticism of
:40:08. > :40:10.people who live in the Home Counties but I think it is a good think
:40:11. > :40:14.longer term that the police force from the part of the country they
:40:15. > :40:18.are policing. The Mayor Boris Johnson is trying to
:40:19. > :40:24.change the make up of the body overseeing London's Fire Service.
:40:25. > :40:30.His proposals are being described as a crude political manoeuvre to
:40:31. > :40:35.stifle dissent and criticism. If you have ever wondered who runs
:40:36. > :40:42.the Fire Brigade in London, here is your answer. These are the guys in
:40:43. > :40:46.charge. The fire authority is made up of 17 members, eight London
:40:47. > :40:52.Assembly members, seven London borough councillors and two macros
:40:53. > :41:00.which are directly appointed by the Mayor. Boris Johnson would reduce
:41:01. > :41:07.the number from eight to six. The Mayor wants to increased the number
:41:08. > :41:14.he directly appoints from two to six. Conservative politicians and
:41:15. > :41:21.mayoral appointees will be in the majority. According to critics it is
:41:22. > :41:26.a naked power grab. I think it shows something about the Mayor's
:41:27. > :41:30.leadership, hiding behind a majority of his appointees who he knows will
:41:31. > :41:35.vote the way he wants them to vote. The Mayor, for his part, says he is
:41:36. > :41:40.merely trying to Internet the recommendations of a House of
:41:41. > :41:42.Commons committee last year. But with any decisions involving the
:41:43. > :41:47.Fire Brigade being a matter of life and death, making sure the fire
:41:48. > :41:52.authority works in the right way is a hugely important decision.
:41:53. > :41:57.Sir Edward Lister joins me, the Mayor's chief of staff. Is this
:41:58. > :42:01.because you were embarrassed by the authority voted against these fire
:42:02. > :42:08.station closures? No, it is not that. The Mayor is elected to manage
:42:09. > :42:13.among other things the Fire Service in London. He have to meet certain
:42:14. > :42:18.budgetary requirements. He advised the fire authority of those
:42:19. > :42:23.budgetary requirements. It took nigh on a year. They had lots of time to
:42:24. > :42:28.put forward alternatives. Instead, the only option put forward was by a
:42:29. > :42:35.highly respected Commissioner who voted against -- suggested the
:42:36. > :42:40.closure of fire stations but they were voted against. Thank God we had
:42:41. > :42:45.a public accountability lock. The authority said these are not safe.
:42:46. > :42:52.But more importantly the Mayor was able to override it already. You
:42:53. > :42:57.have the power to override it so why change the decision? The problem is,
:42:58. > :43:02.LFPA do not understand if they are an executive responsible for the
:43:03. > :43:05.Fire Service or a scrutiny body There are a bit schizoid about this.
:43:06. > :43:12.One minute they want to be scrutinising, the next they have to
:43:13. > :43:18.make a decision. You are not part of this view when you are a borough
:43:19. > :43:25.Commissioner in 2006. What has changed since then? Hang on, Ken
:43:26. > :43:30.Livingstone was the Mayor! No, I would argue very strongly that it is
:43:31. > :43:36.the Mayor's job, the elected mayor of the day to implement his
:43:37. > :43:40.policies. If the body which is responsible to him is not
:43:41. > :43:45.implementing his policies, then he has every right to want to change it
:43:46. > :43:50.to get those policies put in. Why not streamline it. He has got the
:43:51. > :43:54.power to overrule it, what are they achieving, this Labour and Lib Dem
:43:55. > :43:59.authority members voting against proposals? I had a letter not from
:44:00. > :44:05.Sir Edward but it was from the Mayor's office, asking me to comment
:44:06. > :44:10.on the proposals because we are in the consultation period at the
:44:11. > :44:15.moment. I have to say it is the oddest letter I have ever received.
:44:16. > :44:18.It asked on the basis of a lack of direct accountability that we should
:44:19. > :44:22.then get rid of the councillors from the borough 's and the assembly and
:44:23. > :44:29.put in place appointees by the Mayor. The argument that you used
:44:30. > :44:33.was there was in the current arrangements, a lack of direct
:44:34. > :44:37.accountability. Instead of saying at least we have got in direct
:44:38. > :44:41.accountability, these people are elected by the population as a
:44:42. > :44:49.whole, you wanted to take that away and put in appointees from the
:44:50. > :44:52.Mayor. The accountability would just move to the London Assembly, who are
:44:53. > :44:57.elected and that's what they're doing with the police now. Sir
:44:58. > :45:00.Edward talked about the recommendation from the House of
:45:01. > :45:04.Commons select committee. I would have my reservations about those,
:45:05. > :45:09.but that the man's legislation. That is what Sir Edward and the Mayor are
:45:10. > :45:14.saying is the position we ought to get to. That's fine if they want to
:45:15. > :45:16.try to do that and they should go through the full scrutiny process of
:45:17. > :45:21.the House of Commons, through primary legislation. Now what they
:45:22. > :45:25.are doing is putting in an interim measure, which is not the same,
:45:26. > :45:33.which absolutely abolishes any accountability. I think Londoners
:45:34. > :45:37.pay council tax, the Mayor sets it for the fire authority and should
:45:38. > :45:43.take the decisions. And the borough leaders should scrutinise those
:45:44. > :45:46.decisions. You know you have to get a change in the law to make this
:45:47. > :45:50.happen for sub you're going to win today's as an interim measure. No,
:45:51. > :45:55.we are saying, long-term there is another solution to the whole thing.
:45:56. > :45:59.In the short-term, no, we can't do it. We have got to ask the Secretary
:46:00. > :46:04.of State to agree to this. It's something he has to agree to and has
:46:05. > :46:10.to do a consultation on, but because we are very open about this, we are
:46:11. > :46:15.doing some consultation now. To try to get a semblance of agreement and
:46:16. > :46:18.indeed, we have extended our consultation period to allow London
:46:19. > :46:22.councils an extra two weeks, because they want to come back with some
:46:23. > :46:29.alternatives and ideas and we will see what happens. The main point is
:46:30. > :46:32.this is not a scrutiny body. This is a body there to manage it. If
:46:33. > :46:36.they're not going to manage it, then we have to take steps to bring it
:46:37. > :46:43.down. Thank you very much for coming in today. Some dude the debate this
:46:44. > :46:48.week as indicating UKIP has arrived. This symbolised the party going
:46:49. > :46:52.mainstream. What other prospects in London? They're hoping to contest a
:46:53. > :46:55.record number of seats in town hall elections, which are on the same day
:46:56. > :47:03.as the Euro elections in May, and already have a few councillors. I'm
:47:04. > :47:09.not claiming 29 million people have the bike to come to Britain. I'm
:47:10. > :47:14.claiming 485 million people. The debate this week and next week will
:47:15. > :47:18.be the first time many voters will afford but the fact there are local
:47:19. > :47:21.elections this May. On the same day as the European elections, is also
:47:22. > :47:25.elections in every council in London. The result of them is
:47:26. > :47:29.largely expected to give Nigel Farage and UKIP power over London's
:47:30. > :47:35.town halls in a way they've never seen before. I think they could win
:47:36. > :47:39.dozens, not hundreds, but dozens of seats, and if they did that, it
:47:40. > :47:43.would suggest London politics was moving away from the long-term
:47:44. > :47:49.domination by the Conservatives and Labour. And who knows where that
:47:50. > :47:54.could lead? Is London's Barking and Dagenham, Labour won every seat at
:47:55. > :47:57.the last election, but we don't feel UKIP as the right policies for
:47:58. > :48:02.multicultural Barking and Dagenham. As Labour prepared, they find
:48:03. > :48:06.themselves in a weak position than they would have hoped. Four Labour
:48:07. > :48:09.councillors have defected to UKIP in the last year, three of them have
:48:10. > :48:14.deep been deselected by Labour when they made the jump. There's ex-party
:48:15. > :48:20.members, doing this, because it s a flag of opportunism. Its
:48:21. > :48:24.convenience. When they talk about their real policies, they haven t
:48:25. > :48:27.got any policies, especially not at local level. Here are those three
:48:28. > :48:33.ex-Labour councillors standing with another UKIP candidate. And a copy
:48:34. > :48:37.of the local election manifesto UKIP say their councillors will not
:48:38. > :48:43.be wept, and so, they won't have to do vote for any other pledges on it.
:48:44. > :48:48.There won't be a web? There will be a free for all. UKIP don't have a
:48:49. > :48:57.policy. Of course we have a policy. I'm holding the 2040 manifesto here.
:48:58. > :49:00.-- whip. Our policy in terms of local agenda, is common sense party
:49:01. > :49:05.with common-sense policies, not left-wing, not right-wing. We are a
:49:06. > :49:13.common sense party with common-sense values and common-sense policies.
:49:14. > :49:16.And across the capital this week, in west London's Hillingdon, UKIP were
:49:17. > :49:22.taking their common-sense message to the streets but this time in a
:49:23. > :49:27.Conservative councillor. UKIP only put up one candidate here, but this
:49:28. > :49:32.time, they are contesting every single board, so they say they hope
:49:33. > :49:35.to become the official opposition or even the power brokers in a split
:49:36. > :49:39.authority. Which means the contents of this document, the manifesto for
:49:40. > :49:49.Hillingdon, could well become reality. A Spanish mother. I'm
:49:50. > :49:54.multicultural. Wouldn't you rather be here if you are poor? Local
:49:55. > :49:59.policies here including the meditation of UKIP's sceptical
:50:00. > :50:02.stance on immigration. We are quite clear social housing should go to
:50:03. > :50:07.people with links to the area first. So obviously people who've got
:50:08. > :50:13.family here, who have grandparents, they should get priority because at
:50:14. > :50:17.the moment, we see is a system where it is a points system done on need.
:50:18. > :50:21.Any UKIP councillors elected will not be wept. And won't have to do
:50:22. > :50:26.vote for the contents of their manifesto. It means either the
:50:27. > :50:29.public were to read all these documents on policy, it wouldn't
:50:30. > :50:33.necessarily tell how their UKIP candidate was going to vote --
:50:34. > :50:39.whipped. Lawrence Webb is London's first elected UKIP councillor. Hey
:50:40. > :50:49.bring. Welcome to you. Let's kick off with two or three of the
:50:50. > :50:54.policies you think will do well We saw the issue of housing. Now, the
:50:55. > :51:00.criteria in my constituency is simple. You qualify for social
:51:01. > :51:04.housing is livid that the two years. But if you have lived there for two
:51:05. > :51:07.years. A lady I know fell on hard times, had to sell her House, she
:51:08. > :51:12.moved in with a partner, in a neighbouring London Borough, for
:51:13. > :51:17.three months, during that time, she was a carer for her ballot is coming
:51:18. > :51:20.back three nights a week, but the situation with their partner
:51:21. > :51:24.disintegrated. But the point is she has come back to the constituency
:51:25. > :51:30.and has to wait two years to be eligible for social housing. Fair
:51:31. > :51:38.enough. That is amazing issue. What else? -- that is a major issue. We
:51:39. > :51:43.are not whipped, so we can vote with our conscience. It's not a free for
:51:44. > :51:50.all. We have three other cancers with me. We sit down before the
:51:51. > :51:56.meeting, that councillors. We discuss... We are offering you
:51:57. > :52:00.freedom, we will say anything we like. We just had a policy where
:52:01. > :52:06.parking has been introduced, parking charges, in one of the most
:52:07. > :52:09.impoverished areas in the borough. It's only a small fee, but there's a
:52:10. > :52:17.huge Tesco down the road with a car park. So those businesses are
:52:18. > :52:20.suffering. What we would say is the Conservatives whipped everybody to
:52:21. > :52:24.vote it through but we would say, no, you vote with your conscience.
:52:25. > :52:31.Do you think, as some people suggest, your main hope here is to
:52:32. > :52:36.fill a gap left by the BNP in areas like yours? No because the BNP had
:52:37. > :52:43.never done well in our borough. Barking and Dagenham? There is a
:52:44. > :52:50.valid point, where you have all the previous councils being Labour, it
:52:51. > :52:54.is a democratic deficit, isn't it? Are you happy to get the votes of
:52:55. > :53:00.former BNP people? When the votes are counted, there is no recognition
:53:01. > :53:03.of how people voted. If you don t want Labour in Barking and Dagenham,
:53:04. > :53:09.there is no other choice but UKIP is now becoming the alternative. We
:53:10. > :53:13.have had Labour councils across the floor to UKIP. They are
:53:14. > :53:20.opportunists, aren't they? People clinging desperately to their last
:53:21. > :53:25.days of municipal... They have been deselected by their parties. You
:53:26. > :53:28.have got the dregs. The no hopers. There are certain issues around
:53:29. > :53:30.housing and the direction of the Labour Party, and they were
:53:31. > :53:37.increasingly becoming distanced from the Labour Party. As you say,
:53:38. > :53:40.somewhere deselected. Your party must be worried about what UKIP do
:53:41. > :53:46.in the Euros for them are you worried by what they were doing a
:53:47. > :53:51.local council? Yes and no. UKIP won't appeal in London as other
:53:52. > :54:01.parts of the country. Your own leader feels uncomfortable when he
:54:02. > :54:05.comes here. There is a danger. Nigel actually lives in London for the
:54:06. > :54:10.peak commute every day. Do they have those concerns in Croydon? Most
:54:11. > :54:15.Londoners love the fact its diverse, with people all over the world. I
:54:16. > :54:18.think it's depressing to have a leader of a political party
:54:19. > :54:23.pandering to racism. The main point I want to make, if you take Croydon,
:54:24. > :54:27.they are only fielding a small number of candidates for the day
:54:28. > :54:31.have no chance of winning the council. The danger is if
:54:32. > :54:36.Conservative voters give one of their votes to UKIP, it could go to
:54:37. > :54:40.labour and they would double our council tax. If people spread their
:54:41. > :54:46.votes, they don't get the outcome they want. They let Labour back in.
:54:47. > :54:53.Are they a threat to Labour? Can I just say, the point we give our
:54:54. > :54:56.councillors freedom to go with their conscience, rather than be tied by
:54:57. > :55:03.the manifesto, does your conscience not say, but when you make a pledge,
:55:04. > :55:07.in your manifesto, does your conscience not say that you then
:55:08. > :55:13.keep it? Now, this idea that you're giving your councillors freedom to
:55:14. > :55:20.do what? To break their promise to the electorate. Let's be clear about
:55:21. > :55:24.what are the things in the manifesto that I think people really do need
:55:25. > :55:32.to know about. You know, if you look at Jonathan Stanley, the health
:55:33. > :55:36.spokespeople, he said he wants flat fees for people who attend GP
:55:37. > :55:39.practices. If you look at what's happening in the small-business
:55:40. > :55:42.manifesto they have put out, they are saying that it should be a
:55:43. > :55:48.matter for local decision, as to whether you get maternity benefits
:55:49. > :55:55.from paternity, redundancy. On that point? Labour and Conservative have
:55:56. > :55:58.no perfect buckler manifesto pledges. The manifesto was there for
:55:59. > :56:03.a guide of what we want to achieve in the borough. But many things come
:56:04. > :56:10.up. At council level for the it s not relevant to the manifesto. Do
:56:11. > :56:16.you agree with the NHS point question a flat fee for GPs? Many
:56:17. > :56:21.things councils vote on our introductions of... At what you
:56:22. > :56:26.think? Should we have a new zebra crossing. But what do you think We
:56:27. > :56:32.will wait and see and members will wait and see how the policies unfold
:56:33. > :56:36.and make a decision at that time. Thank you very much for coming in.
:56:37. > :56:45.What about the rest of the week 's poetical news? Here it is in 62
:56:46. > :56:49.seconds. -- 60 seconds. Thousands of people turned out on Monday to pay
:56:50. > :56:52.their respects to the RMT union leader Bob Crow. He died earlier
:56:53. > :56:57.this month. Friends and colleagues lined the route ahead of a private
:56:58. > :57:01.service. The London Assembly has backed plans to redevelop that the
:57:02. > :57:05.docks. The Mayor will decide this Monday whether to green light the
:57:06. > :57:09.plans. The ?1 billion scheme plans to build 3500 high-value homes at
:57:10. > :57:14.Deptford Heritage campaigners are fighting to make developers include
:57:15. > :57:17.more historic features. A whistle-blower who raised concerns
:57:18. > :57:21.about the recording of crime statistics has resigned from the
:57:22. > :57:24.metabolic and police. He said his decision to resign was directly
:57:25. > :57:33.related to his treatment following making this disclosures. The cycle
:57:34. > :57:35.superhighway from bow to Stratford has been partially closed for
:57:36. > :57:39.resurfacing just five months after it opened. Transport for London says
:57:40. > :57:50.the weather over the winter made the blue service -- surface in need of
:57:51. > :57:53.repair. A year on, can we talk about the effect of housing benefit
:57:54. > :58:00.changes? Research by the BBC done this week indicating among other
:58:01. > :58:04.things, 10,000 people in arrears on housing benefit. One of the key
:58:05. > :58:10.purposes, around 6% are moving to smaller properties. Your reaction? I
:58:11. > :58:14.expect Gavin sees this in his surgery to. People come to me, a
:58:15. > :58:21.woman the other day, she's brought up three daughters, she is disabled,
:58:22. > :58:23.and for the past four years, she has been pleading with Metropolitan
:58:24. > :58:28.Housing Association to move to a smaller property. They don't have
:58:29. > :58:34.one. She can't do it. She is now, for the first time in her life, in
:58:35. > :58:38.arrears. I get this in my surgery as well. The councils have been given
:58:39. > :58:42.money, discretionary housing payments, to help people in these
:58:43. > :58:47.circumstances and in Croydon, the council has a good record on that.
:58:48. > :58:51.The fundamental problem is we haven't got enough social housing.
:58:52. > :58:55.We need to build more, but it's right, to use the stock we have in
:58:56. > :58:59.the best way to ensure people are better occupying a property to big
:59:00. > :59:02.for them. I'm sure Barry has the same in his constituency. Huge
:59:03. > :59:09.waiting lists, people in desperate need. This change is justified. 13
:59:10. > :59:11.million out of the 40 million apparently available hasn't been
:59:12. > :59:13.spent the summer apparently available hasn't been spent all
:59:14. > :59:17.sorts these these authorities not be helping. That's an issue we need to
:59:18. > :59:20.perceive. Those councils like Croydon who have used it would like
:59:21. > :59:24.some of that money reallocated to them so we can do more to help
:59:25. > :59:28.people. Some councils crying wolf have not used the money the
:59:29. > :59:31.Government has given them. We are running out of time for them it
:59:32. > :59:36.appears a cross-party political boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.
:59:37. > :59:43.Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.
:59:44. > :59:54.Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP
:59:55. > :59:56.finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin
:59:57. > :59:59.with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London
:00:00. > :00:03.about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs
:00:04. > :00:06.back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are
:00:07. > :00:10.falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National
:00:11. > :00:13.front in France is that they are building on decades of successful
:00:14. > :00:18.that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:19. > :00:23.think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics So
:00:24. > :00:32.they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly
:00:33. > :00:36.few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does
:00:37. > :00:43.seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but
:00:44. > :00:47.in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty
:00:48. > :00:54.far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local
:00:55. > :00:59.elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties
:01:00. > :01:03.prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream
:01:04. > :01:07.parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a
:01:08. > :01:10.council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is
:01:11. > :01:14.because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions
:01:15. > :01:19.in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of
:01:20. > :01:26.the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and
:01:27. > :01:31.left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot
:01:32. > :01:39.of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was
:01:40. > :01:47.here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and
:01:48. > :01:54.EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention
:01:55. > :01:59.that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act
:02:00. > :02:05.together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.
:02:06. > :02:09.I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes
:02:10. > :02:12.from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the
:02:13. > :02:19.difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front
:02:20. > :02:28.Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they
:02:29. > :02:34.were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200
:02:35. > :02:48.they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far
:02:49. > :02:52.right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.
:02:53. > :02:56.Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further
:02:57. > :03:09.across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a
:03:10. > :03:15.much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she
:03:16. > :03:18.will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will
:03:19. > :03:25.always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone
:03:26. > :03:30.for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential
:03:31. > :03:34.election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far
:03:35. > :03:38.right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.
:03:39. > :03:42.She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes
:03:43. > :03:48.from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who
:03:49. > :03:52.would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current
:03:53. > :03:57.president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties
:03:58. > :04:01.have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP
:04:02. > :04:05.are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at
:04:06. > :04:11.issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are
:04:12. > :04:16.quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes
:04:17. > :04:20.from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer
:04:21. > :04:25.for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are
:04:26. > :04:28.rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they
:04:29. > :04:33.become part of the system that people were voting against in the
:04:34. > :04:37.first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour
:04:38. > :04:41.Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday
:04:42. > :04:46.Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you
:04:47. > :04:51.are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the
:04:52. > :04:56.Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I
:04:57. > :05:00.have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record
:05:01. > :05:06.briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the
:05:07. > :05:13.mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been
:05:14. > :05:20.a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.
:05:21. > :05:27.There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and
:05:28. > :05:31.they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit
:05:32. > :05:34.still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the
:05:35. > :05:40.coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary
:05:41. > :05:43.changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.
:05:44. > :05:50.What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this
:05:51. > :05:54.has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a
:05:55. > :05:59.very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and
:06:00. > :06:04.then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The
:06:05. > :06:07.British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party
:06:08. > :06:13.political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people
:06:14. > :06:17.from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a
:06:18. > :06:23.bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being
:06:24. > :06:27.unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining
:06:28. > :06:31.characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a
:06:32. > :06:35.lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the
:06:36. > :06:38.budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the
:06:39. > :06:42.signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.
:06:43. > :06:48.The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has
:06:49. > :06:54.the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price
:06:55. > :06:58.freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these
:06:59. > :07:02.energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for
:07:03. > :07:05.that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up
:07:06. > :07:12.with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student
:07:13. > :07:16.tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price
:07:17. > :07:20.freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the
:07:21. > :07:27.Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming
:07:28. > :07:34.the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick
:07:35. > :07:40.through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in
:07:41. > :07:45.2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what
:07:46. > :07:49.campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the
:07:50. > :07:54.scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be
:07:55. > :07:58.winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was
:07:59. > :08:04.because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87
:08:05. > :08:07.or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What
:08:08. > :08:11.they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government
:08:12. > :08:15.because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or
:08:16. > :08:19.February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of
:08:20. > :08:25.animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must
:08:26. > :08:29.be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological
:08:30. > :08:35.differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how
:08:36. > :08:40.little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have
:08:41. > :08:46.outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he
:08:47. > :08:50.is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There
:08:51. > :08:56.was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And
:08:57. > :09:04.Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions
:09:05. > :09:09.is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those
:09:10. > :09:12.two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not
:09:13. > :09:17.done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed
:09:18. > :09:22.Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with
:09:23. > :09:26.the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the
:09:27. > :09:31.debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:32. > :09:35.We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s
:09:36. > :09:43.remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.
:09:44. > :09:51.I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...
:09:52. > :09:58.Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with
:09:59. > :10:07.you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the
:10:08. > :10:13.drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is
:10:14. > :10:20.simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I
:10:21. > :10:26.don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the
:10:27. > :10:32.facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better
:10:33. > :10:42.here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great
:10:43. > :10:47.not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.
:10:48. > :10:53.Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this
:10:54. > :10:57.week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate
:10:58. > :11:04.for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the
:11:05. > :11:09.other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult
:11:10. > :11:12.argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he
:11:13. > :11:16.distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just
:11:17. > :11:20.closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU
:11:21. > :11:25.immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away
:11:26. > :11:30.from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us
:11:31. > :11:36.to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his
:11:37. > :11:40.reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.
:11:41. > :11:47.I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage
:11:48. > :11:51.would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public
:11:52. > :11:59.favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question
:12:00. > :12:05.is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to
:12:06. > :12:11.that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a
:12:12. > :12:15.binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on
:12:16. > :12:19.opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg
:12:20. > :12:23.needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very
:12:24. > :12:29.well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he
:12:30. > :12:34.said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:35. > :12:36.talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had
:12:37. > :12:42.made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do
:12:43. > :12:45.not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,
:12:46. > :12:49.it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or
:12:50. > :12:53.without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and
:12:54. > :12:58.also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an
:12:59. > :13:05.hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but
:13:06. > :13:09.Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal
:13:10. > :13:14.with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has
:13:15. > :13:18.honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.
:13:19. > :13:22.That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime
:13:23. > :13:26.every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1
:13:27. > :13:33.o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.