:00:37. > :00:42.David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers
:00:43. > :00:46.over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.
:00:47. > :00:53.And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.
:00:54. > :00:57.We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.
:00:58. > :01:00.Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?
:01:01. > :01:03.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist
:01:04. > :01:14.But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?
:01:15. > :01:16.Here's to the quarter of a million votes.
:01:17. > :01:20.And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with
:01:21. > :01:34.a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.
:01:35. > :01:42.Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?
:01:43. > :01:46.And with me our panel of top political journalists,
:01:47. > :01:48.who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:49. > :01:51.and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:52. > :01:55.This morning's political news is dominated
:01:56. > :01:58.by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and
:01:59. > :02:02.The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior
:02:03. > :02:04.Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling
:02:05. > :02:11.The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of
:02:12. > :02:15.investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham,
:02:16. > :02:19.where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken
:02:20. > :02:25.Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office
:02:26. > :02:28.was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.
:02:29. > :02:32.He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.
:02:33. > :02:34.In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,
:02:35. > :02:37."why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people
:02:38. > :02:43.Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the
:02:44. > :02:51.An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.
:02:52. > :02:54.Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's
:02:55. > :02:58.Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,
:02:59. > :03:04.this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.
:03:05. > :03:06.There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,
:03:07. > :03:10.which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.
:03:11. > :03:12.There will be discipline in the Government.
:03:13. > :03:17.The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.
:03:18. > :03:23.The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that's
:03:24. > :03:42.put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.
:03:43. > :03:52.Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she
:03:53. > :03:59.has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael
:04:00. > :04:07.Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during
:04:08. > :04:12.13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an
:04:13. > :04:23.act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website
:04:24. > :04:26.and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of
:04:27. > :04:31.conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a
:04:32. > :04:38.leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a
:04:39. > :04:42.vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In
:04:43. > :04:48.the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.
:04:49. > :04:54.She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is
:04:55. > :04:59.interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse
:05:00. > :05:04.differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is
:05:05. > :05:09.tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.
:05:10. > :05:15.Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the
:05:16. > :05:21.politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is
:05:22. > :05:26.deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but
:05:27. > :05:30.replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in
:05:31. > :05:35.ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that
:05:36. > :05:39.ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the
:05:40. > :05:44.Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with
:05:45. > :05:49.Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick
:05:50. > :05:55.Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and
:05:56. > :06:03.criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the
:06:04. > :06:12.Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is
:06:13. > :06:17.fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What
:06:18. > :06:25.separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The
:06:26. > :06:28.view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic
:06:29. > :06:34.extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is
:06:35. > :06:39.criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour
:06:40. > :06:44.government introduced to do with the previous Labour government
:06:45. > :06:50.introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people
:06:51. > :06:55.and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous
:06:56. > :06:56.home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in
:06:57. > :07:02.the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has
:07:03. > :07:08.used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the
:07:09. > :07:12.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed
:07:13. > :07:19.those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove
:07:20. > :07:23.would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech
:07:24. > :07:26.the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011
:07:27. > :07:28.when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists
:07:29. > :07:45.warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system
:07:46. > :07:50.is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.
:07:51. > :07:53.Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.
:07:54. > :08:03.Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of
:08:04. > :08:09.their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents
:08:10. > :08:11.in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political
:08:12. > :08:15.infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the
:08:16. > :08:21.resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs
:08:22. > :08:26.to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.
:08:27. > :08:29.There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for
:08:30. > :08:34.four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact
:08:35. > :08:39.that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on
:08:40. > :08:44.for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much
:08:45. > :08:47.stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations
:08:48. > :08:52.like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the
:08:53. > :09:02.Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the
:09:03. > :09:06.leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an
:09:07. > :09:11.overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We
:09:12. > :09:16.want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate
:09:17. > :09:20.themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which
:09:21. > :09:25.makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to
:09:26. > :09:31.be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted
:09:32. > :09:36.curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an
:09:37. > :09:41.education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender
:09:42. > :09:48.segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender
:09:49. > :09:54.segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.
:09:55. > :09:59.Where you have a state education system, which is about gender
:10:00. > :10:03.equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of
:10:04. > :10:07.gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be
:10:08. > :10:13.tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We
:10:14. > :10:20.do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years
:10:21. > :10:24.ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like
:10:25. > :10:30.tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do
:10:31. > :10:35.think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to
:10:36. > :10:41.inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to
:10:42. > :10:47.be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy
:10:48. > :10:51.sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning
:10:52. > :10:54.as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of
:10:55. > :10:58.Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools
:10:59. > :11:01.were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They
:11:02. > :11:07.were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an
:11:08. > :11:10.academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within
:11:11. > :11:14.Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school
:11:15. > :11:24.standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we
:11:25. > :11:31.get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking
:11:32. > :11:35.to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme
:11:36. > :11:43.which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and
:11:44. > :11:52.fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a
:11:53. > :11:57.desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an
:11:58. > :12:09.increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr
:12:10. > :12:18.Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for
:12:19. > :12:23.gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in
:12:24. > :12:26.since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We
:12:27. > :12:34.note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected
:12:35. > :12:41.head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and
:12:42. > :12:44.what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about
:12:45. > :12:49.fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of
:12:50. > :12:56.schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You
:12:57. > :13:04.mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence
:13:05. > :13:08.for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group
:13:09. > :13:14.dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about
:13:15. > :13:19.schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in
:13:20. > :13:25.Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of
:13:26. > :13:32.multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic
:13:33. > :13:36.schools. I will say to you this morning that Birmingham City
:13:37. > :13:44.Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party, the Department for Education were
:13:45. > :13:49.all involved in this conversation. In 2010, ministers were warned about
:13:50. > :13:55.potential radicalisation of schools and they fell to act. We need to
:13:56. > :14:00.know why, for years on, they allowed this situation to exacerbate. When
:14:01. > :14:04.you look at the record of labour and this government 's record, there are
:14:05. > :14:09.plenty of examples where both of you fail to act. Would it not be better
:14:10. > :14:15.to drop the party politics and get together to confront this problem
:14:16. > :14:20.for the sake of the children? There are a number of reports going on in
:14:21. > :14:24.Birmingham. Some are led by the city council, some by the Department for
:14:25. > :14:28.Education. Labour MPs this morning have come forward with the Bishop of
:14:29. > :14:34.Birmingham talking about faith in schools. If you have a minister
:14:35. > :14:38.failing to do their job, if you have a minister being given warnings in
:14:39. > :14:41.2010 and failing to act on them for four years, the opposition has a
:14:42. > :14:47.role to hold the executive to account. This is about the safety
:14:48. > :14:50.and standards of teaching for pupils in Birmingham schools. It is about a
:14:51. > :14:56.great education for these young people so they can succeed in a
:14:57. > :15:02.modern, multicultural Britain. Do you agree with your Shadow Cabinet
:15:03. > :15:09.colleague, Rachel Reeves, that Labour' as core voters are
:15:10. > :15:13.abandoning the party? She was building on what Ed said the day
:15:14. > :15:18.after the elections in Berwick. We have to make sure those communities
:15:19. > :15:21.who we historically represent regard Labour as having a successful
:15:22. > :15:26.message for them. I am passionate about making sure we have great
:15:27. > :15:32.vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our
:15:33. > :15:38.schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling
:15:39. > :15:47.booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.
:15:48. > :15:51.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg
:15:52. > :15:54.- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'
:15:55. > :15:56.because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president
:15:57. > :16:04.Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from
:16:05. > :16:07.the 80s who cannot solve the problems of the next five years'.
:16:08. > :16:09.But with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr
:16:10. > :16:12.Juncker, it's not a dead cert that Mr Cameron can stop his appointment.
:16:13. > :16:18.This is what he had to say at the G7 summit earlier this week:
:16:19. > :16:24.It is important that we have people running the institutions of Europe
:16:25. > :16:28.who understand the need for change and reform. I would argue that view
:16:29. > :16:33.is widely shared amongst other heads of government and heads of state in
:16:34. > :16:39.the European Union. I am clear what I want to achieve for Britain's
:16:40. > :16:42.future, to secure Britain's placed in a reformed European Union and I
:16:43. > :16:46.have a strategy for delivering that, a strategy for dealing with an
:16:47. > :16:47.issue which I think if we walk away from it would see Britain drift
:16:48. > :16:49.towards the exits. We've been joined from Berlin
:16:50. > :16:53.by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is a senior figure in the EPP - that's
:16:54. > :16:56.the party backing Mr Juncker. He's also Chairman of the Union
:16:57. > :17:01.of European Federalists. And in our Newcastle newsroom is
:17:02. > :17:04.the former Conservative MEP Martin Callanan who until last month led
:17:05. > :17:07.the European Conservatives and Reformists group in Brussels.
:17:08. > :17:23.Welcome to you both. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary,
:17:24. > :17:25.they don't want Mr Junker, the new Italian Prime Minister doesn't look
:17:26. > :17:32.keen either, should he bow out gracefully? First of all, he wants
:17:33. > :17:38.to have Mr Junker but he wants to have his conditions. Will he become
:17:39. > :17:45.president of the European Council, a high representative? It is a
:17:46. > :17:52.discussion to be had in the next three or four weeks until the
:17:53. > :17:54.European Parliament can elect the president of the European Council
:17:55. > :18:01.after the proposal of the European Council, which has to be done after
:18:02. > :18:07.consultation with the Parliament in the light of the European elections
:18:08. > :18:12.and by a majority vote. If not Mr Junker, then who? There are many
:18:13. > :18:18.available candidates, I am not going to mention them in front of someone
:18:19. > :18:23.so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us one name that you would prefer? The
:18:24. > :18:29.prime Minister of Sweden, Christine Lagarde, the minister from
:18:30. > :18:38.Lithuania, these are people who have a record of old reform. Junker is
:18:39. > :18:44.the ultimate Europe insider. We need radical inform. We need to respond
:18:45. > :18:49.to the message the electorate gave us in the elections -- radical
:18:50. > :18:53.reform. Junker said he had to lie in public, he allowed the security
:18:54. > :18:56.services to conduct a dirty tricks campaign against his opponent. This
:18:57. > :19:01.is not who we want leading the European Commission. Elmar Brok,
:19:02. > :19:04.since the European voters have sent a message to the parliament that
:19:05. > :19:10.they are not happy with the status quo, why would you want a man who is
:19:11. > :19:16.synonymous with the status quo? First of all what Martin has said is
:19:17. > :19:27.wrong. He has not done tricks against his opponents. He was very
:19:28. > :19:33.clear on that. He is also the man who was always for changes. He made
:19:34. > :19:37.dramatic changes as head of the Euro group, came out of the economic
:19:38. > :19:41.crisis which was a result of the financial crisis, made politics
:19:42. > :19:46.possible, to stop this incredible financial sector influence of our
:19:47. > :19:50.states. I believe he is a man who works on the programme which Mrs
:19:51. > :19:54.Merkel and others have decided in Dublin, for the reform of the
:19:55. > :19:59.European Union, less government. But we need Europe more and he is not a
:20:00. > :20:04.man from the 80s. He is a man of this century and in this century he
:20:05. > :20:07.made his own policy. He is the winner of the European elections, he
:20:08. > :20:12.has a majority will stop Mrs LANguard is not running because she
:20:13. > :20:20.knows she will not get the majority in the European Parliament. --
:20:21. > :20:25.Christine Lagarde is not running. It is the Council of minister is that
:20:26. > :20:30.decides. No, the European Parliament has the final word. The European
:20:31. > :20:33.Council can make a proposal by majority in the light of the
:20:34. > :20:37.European elections after consultation with the European
:20:38. > :20:41.Parliament. The council cannot get a candidate against the will of the
:20:42. > :20:47.European Parliament. Mr Junker has a majority in the European Parliament.
:20:48. > :20:51.Theoretically he is right, the Parliament has do vote on the
:20:52. > :20:54.candidates proposed by the council. I want to challenge the view that
:20:55. > :20:59.somehow he won the European elections. There is no provision for
:21:00. > :21:04.Jean Claude Junker to stand in the elections. He is saying that the EEP
:21:05. > :21:07.party got the most number of seats in the Parliament but none of the
:21:08. > :21:11.electorate knew they were taking part in this election. How many
:21:12. > :21:15.people who voted Labour in the United Kingdom realised that their
:21:16. > :21:20.vote would count towards a German socialist to be a candidate for the
:21:21. > :21:26.commission of presidency is a nonsensical proposal. The elections
:21:27. > :21:29.were 28 individual elections with hundreds of parties across Europe.
:21:30. > :21:32.To try to claim there is a democratic mandate for somebody
:21:33. > :21:43.nobody has heard from Luxembourg to take over the commission is a
:21:44. > :21:52.nonsense. People should know him, if I should say that ironically.
:21:53. > :21:59.Newspapers talking about members of the family of his wife with Nazi
:22:00. > :22:05.links... What is the answer to Martin Callinan's point? I think it
:22:06. > :22:10.is clear that British Conservatives have no candidate because they are
:22:11. > :22:14.not a broad European family, they have not impacted on the selection
:22:15. > :22:20.of top candidates but it is a form of isolation of the British Tory
:22:21. > :22:25.Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr Junker is appointed it could lead to
:22:26. > :22:31.Britain drifting towards the EU exit, is that credible? Is it
:22:32. > :22:33.melodramatic? It is true that we want to renegotiate the
:22:34. > :22:38.relationship. We want some serious reform in Europe so the people who
:22:39. > :22:43.vote in a referendum will be able to vote to stay in if that is what they
:22:44. > :22:50.want. We need a bold reformer, somebody prepared to engage. That is
:22:51. > :22:53.not anti the interests of the UK. We need to recognise there is a problem
:22:54. > :22:56.with public perception of the European Union. Elmar Brok is proud
:22:57. > :23:00.to be one of the last bastions of federalism that that is not where
:23:01. > :23:04.most of the public opinion is in Europe. I understand why he wants
:23:05. > :23:12.his man installed but we need to take into account the message of the
:23:13. > :23:15.letter -- the electorate. 25% of the publishing of France were prepared
:23:16. > :23:24.to vote for an openly racist party. We can't just ignore the signal that
:23:25. > :23:27.the electorate were sending us. If enthusiasm for federalism was at an
:23:28. > :23:31.all-time low, it would be a slap in the face for the voters of Europe to
:23:32. > :23:38.have a federalist as the president, would it not? 70, 80% of the members
:23:39. > :23:43.of the European Parliament, selected by their people, are pro-Europeans.
:23:44. > :23:47.These are the winners of the European elections. Even in France,
:23:48. > :23:51.a majority of voters have voted pro-European and that should be
:23:52. > :23:58.clear, not to make this a populist thing which is not only to do with
:23:59. > :24:08.Europe. And we want to have a Europe which is strong, the member states
:24:09. > :24:13.should do their things. We do not want to have a European centralism,
:24:14. > :24:16.we do not want a European state. This is not at stake. Let's talk
:24:17. > :24:21.about the question of better governance, let's talk about what
:24:22. > :24:25.was wrong in the past, we have to become better, to change our
:24:26. > :24:30.programme in that question. That should be the way we lead to come to
:24:31. > :24:36.positive results. Thank you for that. Before we go, there is a
:24:37. > :24:41.British commissioner that needs to be appointed to Brussels, do you
:24:42. > :24:44.like the sound of that? These are matters for the Prime Minister, I am
:24:45. > :24:52.sure he has many excellent candidates. Do you like the sound of
:24:53. > :24:59.it? Like previous British commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil
:25:00. > :25:01.clinic, I have just lost an election -- Neil Kinnock for the everybody
:25:02. > :25:06.who is asked would serve, I'm sure. Just days ago UKIP were celebrating
:25:07. > :25:09.topping the poll in the European They're claiming they'd have had two
:25:10. > :25:16.more MEPs and the Greens two fewer had another
:25:17. > :25:19.party not confused the electorate. What's more UKIP say it's
:25:20. > :25:21.the fault of the body which was set up to oversee
:25:22. > :25:36.elections - the Electoral Commission This is a party celebrating success
:25:37. > :25:42.at the European elections. They didn't win a single MEP but
:25:43. > :25:46.nationally polled 250,000 votes. They are an independence from
:25:47. > :25:50.Europe, mostly people who were once in UKIP, and that is rather the
:25:51. > :26:07.point. They may look like capers, drink like capers, sound like capers
:26:08. > :26:16.-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were
:26:17. > :26:20.displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP
:26:21. > :26:25.suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused
:26:26. > :26:31.voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are
:26:32. > :26:35.allocated in a European election under a proportional representation
:26:36. > :26:40.system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician
:26:41. > :26:47.in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been
:26:48. > :26:51.tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a
:26:52. > :26:58.region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the
:26:59. > :27:03.number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP
:27:04. > :27:09.were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the
:27:10. > :27:12.last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an
:27:13. > :27:16.independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied
:27:17. > :27:22.their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in
:27:23. > :27:28.each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can
:27:29. > :27:36.prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.
:27:37. > :27:39.UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,
:27:40. > :27:45.back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the
:27:46. > :27:50.first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to
:27:51. > :27:53.stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of
:27:54. > :27:59.votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.
:28:00. > :28:07.Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted
:28:08. > :28:11.for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as
:28:12. > :28:15.they had been intending to do -- bubbly voted for a literal Democrat
:28:16. > :28:29.-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation. In
:28:30. > :28:31.1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the
:28:32. > :28:35.Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral
:28:36. > :28:38.Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did
:28:39. > :28:41.look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a
:28:42. > :28:45.statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of
:28:46. > :28:50.which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description
:28:51. > :28:55.are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence
:28:56. > :28:59.Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely
:29:00. > :29:07.to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty
:29:08. > :29:11.conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe
:29:12. > :29:17.just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We
:29:18. > :29:19.attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo
:29:20. > :29:23.Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch
:29:24. > :29:29.member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,
:29:30. > :29:35.nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting
:29:36. > :29:40.for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The
:29:41. > :29:44.party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.
:29:45. > :29:49.The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining
:29:50. > :29:58.that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.
:29:59. > :30:02.Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.
:30:03. > :30:05.He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get
:30:06. > :30:09.And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for
:30:10. > :30:24.How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party
:30:25. > :30:29.were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly
:30:30. > :30:34.for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a
:30:35. > :30:46.purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you
:30:47. > :30:48.would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the
:30:49. > :30:51.would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties
:30:52. > :30:56.people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people
:30:57. > :31:03.have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled
:31:04. > :31:09.ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the
:31:10. > :31:15.bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I
:31:16. > :31:29.want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is
:31:30. > :31:37.said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange
:31:38. > :31:43.for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than
:31:44. > :31:50.me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally
:31:51. > :31:54.been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been
:31:55. > :31:59.voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected
:32:00. > :32:03.anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What
:32:04. > :32:12.would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for
:32:13. > :32:16.her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions
:32:17. > :32:23.to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat
:32:24. > :32:29.for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share
:32:30. > :32:34.of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If
:32:35. > :32:38.he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could
:32:39. > :32:43.stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said
:32:44. > :32:49.we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and
:32:50. > :32:53.that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the
:32:54. > :33:04.Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for
:33:05. > :33:19.UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think
:33:20. > :33:23.happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,
:33:24. > :33:27.the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really
:33:28. > :33:32.sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are
:33:33. > :33:37.the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is
:33:38. > :33:43.reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -
:33:44. > :33:50.a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal
:33:51. > :33:56.process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks
:33:57. > :34:01.that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important
:34:02. > :34:04.to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and
:34:05. > :34:08.the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an
:34:09. > :34:15.Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote
:34:16. > :34:21.and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the
:34:22. > :34:25.south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote
:34:26. > :34:29.share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats
:34:30. > :34:34.in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The
:34:35. > :34:38.Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have
:34:39. > :34:45.ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral
:34:46. > :34:49.Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections
:34:50. > :34:54.generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%, we should be looking at having 30,
:34:55. > :34:59.40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider
:35:00. > :35:03.proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept
:35:04. > :35:07.the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened
:35:08. > :35:15.is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the
:35:16. > :35:19.rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel
:35:20. > :35:23.Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,
:35:24. > :35:35.particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on
:35:36. > :35:39.Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None
:35:40. > :35:48.whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no
:35:49. > :35:53.redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything
:35:54. > :35:58.so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree
:35:59. > :36:06.with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown
:36:07. > :36:11.Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of
:36:12. > :36:18.accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We
:36:19. > :36:21.have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence
:36:22. > :36:28.which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it
:36:29. > :36:32.has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been
:36:33. > :36:38.massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything
:36:39. > :36:43.it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.
:36:44. > :36:47.Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral
:36:48. > :36:50.Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes
:36:51. > :36:55.decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is
:36:56. > :37:01.about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent
:37:02. > :37:06.people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?
:37:07. > :37:09.You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I
:37:10. > :37:12.do not think it should have a right to appeal.
:37:13. > :37:17.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:18. > :37:24.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism
:37:25. > :37:27.in schools and rumours of a reshuffle in the Week Ahead.
:37:28. > :37:38.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:39. > :37:46.Welcome to the London part of the programme. I am joined for the
:37:47. > :37:53.duration of the show by Meg Hillier and by the Conservative MP for
:37:54. > :37:57.Enfield North. Last year he spent more time in tow harbour and
:37:58. > :38:05.Dagenham. Has Boris Johnson turned his back on the outer suburbs and
:38:06. > :38:10.become a zone one mayor? The man has called for a 10% increase in council
:38:11. > :38:14.tax will be owners of empty homes. He said he was urging London
:38:15. > :38:17.boroughs to back up tax on property owners who allow homes to stand
:38:18. > :38:20.empty for more than a year. He praised Camden Council for trying to
:38:21. > :38:28.deal with their spiralling number of empty homes. This 1000% council tax
:38:29. > :38:33.is never going to happen, it is typical, headline grabbing Boris
:38:34. > :38:38.Johnson. In Camden, they had the most automatic increase in long-term
:38:39. > :38:41.rental homes. They have gone for a 150% increase. Would you welcome mat
:38:42. > :38:49.from a council where you are in London? -- welcome that. I think I
:38:50. > :38:53.would. It does nobody any good for property to lie empty if it can
:38:54. > :39:00.provide housing, it should be doing that. Is this 150% tax in us? In
:39:01. > :39:05.need to work out the financial penalty being a great driver. You
:39:06. > :39:11.need to decide if you are going to let it, invest it or sell it. The
:39:12. > :39:17.more it costs to being left empty, the more it will force you to make a
:39:18. > :39:24.decision. It has brought 80 properties back into use in Camden.
:39:25. > :39:29.I am a low tax conservatives so normally I would not support the
:39:30. > :39:33.idea of raising taxes. If local councils feel there is a role to be
:39:34. > :39:39.played in actually assisting with the empty housing situation, so be
:39:40. > :39:46.it. Good luck to them for trying. If you do not leave your home empty,
:39:47. > :39:50.you would not collect the extra tax. We need to look at where this is
:39:51. > :39:55.happening and why it is happening. We are talking about 6% of
:39:56. > :39:58.properties. Many of these are actually in real Central London,
:39:59. > :40:02.Kensington and Westminster, where most of the unoccupied properties
:40:03. > :40:07.are. They have to look at how much in the context aware it is as well.
:40:08. > :40:14.A 150% increase may have an impact in parts of London. More than 15
:40:15. > :40:17.young people are stabbed in London every week, according to new figures
:40:18. > :40:23.released by the London Ambulance Service. Now, around 50 backbench
:40:24. > :40:25.MPs are arguing it is time for an automatic prison sentence for anyone
:40:26. > :40:35.caught carrying a knife for the second time. Tonight on BBC London
:40:36. > :40:41.News, a 15-year-old boy is stabbed to death. Kevin was stabbed to
:40:42. > :40:45.death. The stabbed victims. Every day in London on average to young
:40:46. > :40:52.people are stabbed. 850 of them in 2013 alone. Instances of knife crime
:40:53. > :40:57.has fallen by 4% in the last year but some backbench MPs have argued
:40:58. > :41:01.the sentences carried out for people carrying a knife do not go far
:41:02. > :41:04.enough. They are calling for a mandatory sentence for anyone found
:41:05. > :41:12.in possession of a night for a second time. For Egon, any changes
:41:13. > :41:21.will come too late. For a group of boys that started attacking the
:41:22. > :41:31.friend he was with, he stopped and intervened. They told him to stop
:41:32. > :41:35.interfering. They stabbed him with one stab wound. Losing a child is
:41:36. > :41:43.one of the most natural things that could ever happen to any parent. In
:41:44. > :41:50.society, the more we put the robust zero tolerance, the more these young
:41:51. > :41:55.people actually reflect on their actions and hopefully that should
:41:56. > :41:59.stop them. Yvonne agrees with the proposal that people caught carrying
:42:00. > :42:03.knives for a second time go automatically to jail. The plan
:42:04. > :42:06.seems to have put the two sides of the coalition at loggerheads.
:42:07. > :42:11.Theresa May, the Conservative Home Secretary, has voiced her support.
:42:12. > :42:14.The Liberal Democrats have come out with a measure saying Nick Clegg
:42:15. > :42:18.would undermine the role of judges and could result in those who carry
:42:19. > :42:27.small blades, such as penknives, landing in jail. Nicked a bar is one
:42:28. > :42:38.MP who has tabled an amendment for the bill which will be debated in
:42:39. > :42:41.the House. Are you going to tell Yvonne Lawson and parents of the
:42:42. > :42:45.other 850 young people who were stabbed in London last year that you
:42:46. > :42:54.do not think that a mandatory sentence for two sequential episodes
:42:55. > :42:58.are enough? What we have to have is legislation that proves it works.
:42:59. > :43:03.What we know is prison does not work in terms of reoffending. At the
:43:04. > :43:08.moment, 70% of young people, and we are talking about mainly an offence
:43:09. > :43:13.involving young people, 70% of those people sent to prison for short
:43:14. > :43:18.sentences reoffend within a year. It that is an argument for changing the
:43:19. > :43:21.way that prison staff. The reason why prisoners do not work at the
:43:22. > :43:25.moment is because they are overcrowded. This is going to cause
:43:26. > :43:30.more overcrowding. What is a better way of doing is to allow judges to
:43:31. > :43:35.make decisions in individual cases about whether a custodial sentence
:43:36. > :43:40.is the right one or not. Already, in terms of offenders over 16 years of
:43:41. > :43:46.age, more than 50% of those people are being sentenced to a custodial
:43:47. > :43:54.sentence for threatening somebody with a knife. A very good piece of
:43:55. > :43:59.legislation -- it is a very good piece of legislation that has been
:44:00. > :44:03.pushed through. You know what motivates a young person in London
:44:04. > :44:08.to carry a knife. Tell us why they do it. A lot of young people feel
:44:09. > :44:13.they have to carry a knife for their own safety, their own protection. It
:44:14. > :44:16.is very stupid to do. They have no intention whatsoever of using it but
:44:17. > :44:21.they get involved in an argument would lose their temper. The next
:44:22. > :44:25.thing it ends up in somebody's ribs. We need to educate young people. I
:44:26. > :44:32.am not talking about young doctors or police officers going into
:44:33. > :44:35.schools and talking at these young people. We need people who have been
:44:36. > :44:40.in the situation as young people have been in. You have been accused
:44:41. > :44:44.by Nick Clegg no less of headline grabbing. What is your evidence that
:44:45. > :44:50.changing sentencing policy changes criminal behaviour? As for headline
:44:51. > :45:01.grabbing, it is a ridiculous statement to make. I have been
:45:02. > :45:04.talking about all this. If you want to change sentencing policy and take
:45:05. > :45:11.away the discretion of judges, you need some evidence it will work.
:45:12. > :45:14.What is your evidence? It is difficult to produce evidence on
:45:15. > :45:21.sentencing for those convicted of carrying a knife for a second time.
:45:22. > :45:25.We have not been sending enough... This -- if this has worked in other
:45:26. > :45:35.areas, surely you can tell me about it? With firearms, it has had a very
:45:36. > :45:42.significant effect in London. Is it the sentencing which has changed
:45:43. > :45:45.behaviour? I will look with respect to people in your profession. If the
:45:46. > :45:50.Metropolitan Police Commissioner is convinced, so am I. Let me address
:45:51. > :45:55.the key issue. Knife crime sentencing, introducing a mandatory
:45:56. > :45:59.sentence for carrying a knife on a second conviction, let's not forget.
:46:00. > :46:04.This will not be the solution to knife culture by any means. It has a
:46:05. > :46:17.critical role to play. That is the role of the courts. We cannot have,
:46:18. > :46:22.as we do now, nearly 8000 people who have been convicted on multiple
:46:23. > :46:24.occasions simply having a fine. I do not know if you have made your mind
:46:25. > :46:41.up. How would you persuade her. accepted even by the Liberal
:46:42. > :46:45.Democrats, now they are rolling back. The Labour Party accept that
:46:46. > :46:50.the message that comes from the courts needs to be unambiguous, we
:46:51. > :47:00.will not tolerate carrying a knife. Make will have seen many instances
:47:01. > :47:06.where this can make a difference -- Meg will have seen. You have
:47:07. > :47:11.breathed families, do they want you to vote for this amendment? I am
:47:12. > :47:16.dealing with a family who think you should be imprisoned for being
:47:17. > :47:20.caught carrying even the first time. We need to look at what makes young
:47:21. > :47:25.people carry a knife, a lot do it out of fear and if you carry one,
:47:26. > :47:33.you as likely -- you are as likely to be a victim. Some of those
:47:34. > :47:41.convicted are very young and that is my caution. Why is your leader... He
:47:42. > :47:45.told the BBC, we are definitely sympathetic to the issue of
:47:46. > :47:55.mandatory sentences after a second offence, what definitely sympathetic
:47:56. > :47:59.mean? It is above my pay grade to comment on what my leader will
:48:00. > :48:05.decide to vote for. Their version is important. Our young offenders
:48:06. > :48:12.institutions have had some very bad inspection reports. Some of those
:48:13. > :48:16.very young people, it is not a good place for them to go. We need to
:48:17. > :48:25.divert them. I think where someone is a serious criminal, carrying a
:48:26. > :48:33.knife, we need to look at it. What do you think. Young people London
:48:34. > :48:42.carrying knives? If you get people convicted imprisoned, thinking it is
:48:43. > :48:49.OK to carry a knife, don't make the stupid mistakes that I have done. It
:48:50. > :48:53.will get through to young people. It is like drugs legislation. How many
:48:54. > :48:57.young people when they decide which drugs to use, think, what is the
:48:58. > :49:00.maximum sentence? They don't think they are going to get caught. We
:49:01. > :49:05.need to increase the chances of these people being caught. Because
:49:06. > :49:10.they don't think beyond that. On the one hand he is saying don't send
:49:11. > :49:14.them to jail, that the reform and rehabilitation bozos that the
:49:15. > :49:17.government have introduced allow for shorter sentencing, mentoring,
:49:18. > :49:23.exactly what he is calling for, whilst in jail and at the gates. We
:49:24. > :49:26.have to be careful to get the balance.
:49:27. > :49:29.Thank you for joining us. Two years ago campaigning for
:49:30. > :49:35.re-election, Boris Johnson claimed his rival Ken Livingstone spent more
:49:36. > :49:38.time in Havana that he bring. This programme has learned that Mr
:49:39. > :49:42.Johnson has spent more time in Doha than in Dagenham. Could it be that
:49:43. > :49:48.Boris Johnson is becoming what his predecessor was so often accused of?
:49:49. > :49:51.Being a zone one Mayor. Boris Johnson is fond of saying that
:49:52. > :49:57.he thinks being Mayor of London is the best job in the world. But what
:49:58. > :50:01.exactly does it entail? Sunday Politics decided to find out how he
:50:02. > :50:06.spends his time and obtained a copy of his diary for the calendar year
:50:07. > :50:10.of 2013, dealing nearly 2000 appointments, all of which we
:50:11. > :50:15.examined. As you might expect, you are most likely to find the Mayor in
:50:16. > :50:18.City Hall, nearly two thirds of his curdled appointments took place
:50:19. > :50:25.here, most often with core members of the team. Away from there it is
:50:26. > :50:30.Westminster where he is most likely do have an engagement comedy is
:50:31. > :50:34.there almost every weekend day meeting civil servants and
:50:35. > :50:41.colleagues. He is likely to be found in iconic locations. Including the
:50:42. > :50:46.Rolling Stones at Hyde Park and the Champions League final at Wembley.
:50:47. > :50:54.He has been to the Savoy hotel a number of times. For example, he has
:50:55. > :50:59.been to the Savoy hotel more than he has been to the London boroughs of
:51:00. > :51:03.Barnet, Bexley, Romney, Croydon, Enfield, Greenwich, Haringey,
:51:04. > :51:10.Harrow, Hillingdon, Hounslow, Lewisham, Murton, Richmond and
:51:11. > :51:13.Sutton. There isn't a single outer London borough that he has visited
:51:14. > :51:17.more times than he has been to the Savoy hotel. The difficulty is that
:51:18. > :51:25.he has made a big deal about going to outer London, to sizing Ken
:51:26. > :51:29.Livingstone for not doing enough. -- criticising Ken Livingstone. He has
:51:30. > :51:33.used the phrase about Havana and favouring four times in the last
:51:34. > :51:39.three years. He went to Havana more often than he went to hoovering.
:51:40. > :51:43.Here -- than he went to favouring. He even repeats the line in his 2012
:51:44. > :51:58.manifesto. We discovered that the Mayor did not visit he bring -- did
:51:59. > :52:03.not visit Havering at all. Should we be concerned? We are crying out for
:52:04. > :52:08.people with power to give us the help and support we need. We are
:52:09. > :52:13.desperate for Boris Johnson to come to us and listen to the views of the
:52:14. > :52:19.people. Don't just sit in your office, get out, see what is
:52:20. > :52:22.happening around, give people opportunity to inform you of their
:52:23. > :52:28.feelings, their views on the subject. And please give them the
:52:29. > :52:30.support they need. While he may not have found the time to visit these
:52:31. > :52:39.parts on official business last year... The Mayor did find space in
:52:40. > :52:44.his diary to travel aboard to China, France, Switzerland and the Gulf. In
:52:45. > :52:50.2013 he spent more time in Doha than he did in Dagenham. Some of those
:52:51. > :52:55.people and their reputations are not squeaky clean. You mean some of the
:52:56. > :52:59.people involved in Qatar, a lot of stuff around the World Cup? The
:53:00. > :53:03.Mayor is incredible quiet about the World Cup come he speaks about
:53:04. > :53:06.everything else and chooses not to say anything about one of the major
:53:07. > :53:11.revelations around the awarding of the World Cup franchise. And here he
:53:12. > :53:17.is, he is silent on it. His silence is deafening. Wherever the right
:53:18. > :53:21.balance lies between travelling to the suburbs and going abroad, Boris
:53:22. > :53:24.Johnson's opponents are almost certain to use the contents of his
:53:25. > :53:30.diary to suggest he is becoming a zone one Mayor.
:53:31. > :53:35.We asked the Mayor to appear on the programme, he declined. We caught up
:53:36. > :53:39.with the Mayor's chief of staff earlier in the week. Sir Eddie
:53:40. > :53:44.argues that looking at one-year's activity in isolation is potentially
:53:45. > :53:48.misleading and that his record in his first four years in visiting out
:53:49. > :53:51.of London was excellent. The Mayor made it clear that outer London was
:53:52. > :53:56.a priority to him, you went there 100 times in the course of his four
:53:57. > :54:02.years. It is 100 official engagements, not just political
:54:03. > :54:07.visits and anything else. That was twice or three times what Ken
:54:08. > :54:12.Livingstone had done. In the first term the Mayor went to outer London
:54:13. > :54:16.a lot more than he has been recently. 86 tonnes in the first
:54:17. > :54:21.three years, the lion share of what we are talking about -- 86 times. If
:54:22. > :54:28.you look at 2013, he went to the Savoy hotel more times than he went
:54:29. > :54:32.to every London borough except one. The Mayor goes to outer London on a
:54:33. > :54:36.regular basis. He went almost the same number proportionately in his
:54:37. > :54:42.last two years than in the first four. I don't accept that criticism.
:54:43. > :54:47.Yes, knee goes to meetings in central London all the time. -- he
:54:48. > :54:58.goes to. It is part of the mayoral job, to be repellent in London --
:54:59. > :55:03.representing London. He speaks on a regular basis. These are the big
:55:04. > :55:09.shop windows of London. A fair point from Eddie Lister, this is a busy
:55:10. > :55:14.man with a lot on his plate? It is interesting, he visited a lot in his
:55:15. > :55:19.first term. He has rather turned his back on it. I would defend the right
:55:20. > :55:24.of the matter go abroad and campaign for London but he is talking a lot
:55:25. > :55:26.to developer friends. I represent Shoreditch which is about to have a
:55:27. > :55:30.big development. I hope he's going to talk as much to London is about
:55:31. > :55:36.their issues as these foreign investors. If he is watching I am
:55:37. > :55:44.sure he will consider that. Are you happy with his record? He has been
:55:45. > :55:48.to Enfield won since 2013. He met a baby llama which was named after
:55:49. > :55:52.him, I don't know if you were there on that illustrious occasion. I
:55:53. > :55:58.don't remember if I was, I would like to know why not. The reality
:55:59. > :56:04.is, if you are saying in the year 2013 that he went to Doha more than
:56:05. > :56:14.Dagenham, true. But over the life of his male oral tea, he has spent an
:56:15. > :56:19.awful long time in Asta London -- mayoralty but he spent an awful lot
:56:20. > :56:22.of time in outer London. He was in my borough six months ago and he is
:56:23. > :56:28.a massive attraction and he talks a lot of good sense. It is what he
:56:29. > :56:32.does as well as what he visits. This is a man who was keen to visit those
:56:33. > :56:39.outer London Paris when he felt he needed to rely on those votes, it is
:56:40. > :56:43.cynical -- outer London boroughs. It is not cynical. He has plugged 15
:56:44. > :56:48.million quid into outer London boroughs in a structured way, to
:56:49. > :56:50.invest in businesses and high streets and regeneration. I think
:56:51. > :56:56.that is what people will judge him on. Has he got his eye on the
:56:57. > :57:00.greater prize now? He wants his Westminster seat back on the
:57:01. > :57:04.possibly the leadership. He is a man who knows how to make the best of a
:57:05. > :57:11.cheaper blizzard tee shot. Give him credit for some of the things he has
:57:12. > :57:15.done -- cheap publicity shot. You are more likely to get the media to
:57:16. > :57:19.cover you if you are in zone one so maybe you are right with your
:57:20. > :57:23.cynicism. It is the fault of the BBC! Time for the rest of the
:57:24. > :57:30.political news in London in 60 seconds.
:57:31. > :57:36.Transport for London has begun the search for a new sponsor for its
:57:37. > :57:40.bicycle hire scheme. In December last year, following a strategic
:57:41. > :57:47.review, Barclay's Bank said it would not renew its deal which is due to
:57:48. > :57:52.end in 25th -- 2015. The coroner of the inquest into the death of Mark
:57:53. > :57:57.Duggan has published a series of concerns about the case. Judge Keith
:57:58. > :57:59.Cutler said he was worried fatal police shootings were not as
:58:00. > :58:04.rigorously examined as they could have been. Heathrow's new terminal
:58:05. > :58:10.two has welcomed its first passengers. It will be some months
:58:11. > :58:14.before the other and airlines join United air lines at the new
:58:15. > :58:16.building. Two men have been arrested in collection with allegations of
:58:17. > :58:27.electoral fraud in Tower Hamlets. Police say in the majority of cases,
:58:28. > :58:33.no criminal offences have been committed.
:58:34. > :58:38.I would like to pick up on the issue of electoral fraud, you can get up
:58:39. > :58:44.to two years in prison, a serious offence. Do we need serious reform
:58:45. > :58:50.of the way we vote? I went to my local polling station, no polling
:58:51. > :58:54.card, no ID, is that satisfactory? Not really. With the postal vote
:58:55. > :58:59.there is a higher threshold but you do need something. We need to have
:59:00. > :59:01.some better approach. We had this approach in Hackney, some
:59:02. > :59:06.councillors were jailed for electoral fraud so we are particular
:59:07. > :59:13.about how we make sure things are above board in Hackney. Often old
:59:14. > :59:18.ladies and people want help and it gets tricky. You can see how it
:59:19. > :59:22.could be laid open. A big difference between electoral fraud and helping
:59:23. > :59:27.an old lady fill in her form. There has been an arrest in Enfield as
:59:28. > :59:31.well. Someone made a complete misrepresentation and filled out the
:59:32. > :59:38.form without telling the truth and it is shameful. In this country it
:59:39. > :59:42.is harder to get a library card than it is to vote, which is ludicrous.
:59:43. > :59:45.We have made some reforms but I think we should go further, we
:59:46. > :59:54.should look at Northern Ireland and introduce ID. Is it a price for
:59:55. > :59:59.getting people out there? No, you have got to have the integrity of
:00:00. > :00:04.the electoral roll. We have one of the least secure systems in the
:00:05. > :00:06.world and I think some form of identification... As the former
:00:07. > :00:11.minister responsible I knew their day would come and I think people
:00:12. > :00:15.will see the benefit of ID cards. They work in Northern Ireland, they
:00:16. > :00:19.are not intrusive, we should be prepared for taking that lead. A
:00:20. > :00:23.lovely point on which to end. It is all we have time for. Thank you to
:00:24. > :00:35.my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.
:00:36. > :00:39.Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?
:00:40. > :00:48.Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make
:00:49. > :01:11.we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read
:01:12. > :01:14.the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read
:01:15. > :01:30.the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in
:01:31. > :01:37.your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not
:01:38. > :01:41.being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national
:01:42. > :01:44.holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off
:01:45. > :01:50.instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is
:01:51. > :02:00.going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to
:02:01. > :02:04.influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like
:02:05. > :02:10.the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society
:02:11. > :02:17.and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to
:02:18. > :02:24.Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such
:02:25. > :02:28.as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as
:02:29. > :02:31.guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit
:02:32. > :02:41.half of what men saying this means that women inherit
:02:42. > :02:41.and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get
:02:42. > :02:45.any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law
:02:46. > :02:52.Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is
:02:53. > :02:58.meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different
:02:59. > :03:02.situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my
:03:03. > :03:05.profession of you and planned infiltration? In my
:03:06. > :03:08.profession of you having spent 13 years on the leadership of an
:03:09. > :03:21.Islamist organisation, having been involved
:03:22. > :03:21.Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very
:03:22. > :03:21.Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to
:03:22. > :03:26.influence the students of this country with a medieval
:03:27. > :03:29.interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative
:03:30. > :03:34.view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within
:03:35. > :03:41.our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were
:03:42. > :03:47.explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican
:03:48. > :03:52.faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.
:03:53. > :03:57.Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a
:03:58. > :04:03.policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this
:04:04. > :04:10.establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the
:04:11. > :04:15.solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working
:04:16. > :04:19.out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular
:04:20. > :04:23.and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is
:04:24. > :04:29.coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying
:04:30. > :04:34.about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very
:04:35. > :04:40.serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into
:04:41. > :04:44.intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You
:04:45. > :04:49.have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very
:04:50. > :04:53.often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or
:04:54. > :04:56.Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that
:04:57. > :05:01.leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think
:05:02. > :05:05.all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound
:05:06. > :05:10.problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish
:05:11. > :05:14.schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict
:05:15. > :05:20.Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get
:05:21. > :05:23.worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a
:05:24. > :05:28.problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state
:05:29. > :05:41.should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like
:05:42. > :05:46.France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take
:05:47. > :05:51.power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some
:05:52. > :05:55.schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than
:05:56. > :05:59.incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of
:06:00. > :06:04.this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you
:06:05. > :06:07.devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and
:06:08. > :06:13.behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary
:06:14. > :06:16.for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views
:06:17. > :06:21.that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe
:06:22. > :06:25.would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how
:06:26. > :06:28.tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that
:06:29. > :06:36.view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do
:06:37. > :06:41.expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the
:06:42. > :06:46.taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,
:06:47. > :06:50.educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated
:06:51. > :06:54.equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at
:06:55. > :06:57.which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the former development Secretary,
:06:58. > :07:01.because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned
:07:02. > :07:07.about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.
:07:08. > :07:12.There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley
:07:13. > :07:15.Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating
:07:16. > :07:18.free schools and academies is undermined the work of local
:07:19. > :07:26.education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which
:07:27. > :07:32.are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of
:07:33. > :07:38.being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have
:07:39. > :07:42.the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary
:07:43. > :07:48.of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not
:07:49. > :07:50.that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the
:07:51. > :07:55.oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point. By
:07:56. > :08:02.tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you
:08:03. > :08:09.think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The
:08:10. > :08:14.story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report
:08:15. > :08:17.that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other
:08:18. > :08:21.report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in
:08:22. > :08:31.July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look
:08:32. > :08:36.at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even
:08:37. > :08:44.government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism
:08:45. > :08:49.became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed
:08:50. > :08:55.the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the
:08:56. > :09:01.argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They
:09:02. > :09:05.should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society. It
:09:06. > :09:14.was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a
:09:15. > :09:23.hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to
:09:24. > :09:36.resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just
:09:37. > :09:46.has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?
:09:47. > :09:50.You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping
:09:51. > :09:54.him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a
:09:55. > :09:58.massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal
:09:59. > :10:04.market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic
:10:05. > :10:10.decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he
:10:11. > :10:19.takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the
:10:20. > :10:22.beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British
:10:23. > :10:29.Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is
:10:30. > :10:36.reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.
:10:37. > :10:43.There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot
:10:44. > :10:49.of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from
:10:50. > :10:53.Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and
:10:54. > :10:57.drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could
:10:58. > :11:01.think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I
:11:02. > :11:04.remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when
:11:05. > :11:08.the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European
:11:09. > :11:13.constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the
:11:14. > :11:21.ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively
:11:22. > :11:25.rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You
:11:26. > :11:29.can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the
:11:30. > :11:31.people who have protested at the elections with the way the European
:11:32. > :11:54.Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What
:11:55. > :12:07.has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we
:12:08. > :12:11.go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink
:12:12. > :12:21.at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.
:12:22. > :12:25.Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define
:12:26. > :12:30.clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough
:12:31. > :12:33.for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the
:12:34. > :12:38.fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We
:12:39. > :12:44.need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,
:12:45. > :12:47.assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is
:12:48. > :12:55.what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to
:12:56. > :12:59.finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger
:13:00. > :13:04.people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually
:13:05. > :13:09.liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too
:13:10. > :13:16.late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the
:13:17. > :13:23.one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been
:13:24. > :13:28.doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight
:13:29. > :13:33.three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you
:13:34. > :13:50.are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be
:13:51. > :14:18.back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:19. > :14:20.What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?
:14:21. > :14:23.You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.
:14:24. > :14:26.It's like a big old question mark in your heart.
:14:27. > :14:29.I just try and do the best I can for them while they're with me.
:14:30. > :14:32.Join Lorraine Pascale as she looks at stories of fostering...
:14:33. > :14:36.I wasn't happy at all, but now I am. ..including her own.