:00:35. > :00:41.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:42. > :00:44.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.
:00:45. > :00:46.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:47. > :00:52.Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.
:00:53. > :00:55.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:56. > :00:59.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:01:00. > :01:01.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:02. > :01:08.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:09. > :01:11.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:12. > :01:18.In the capital this week - how to get east London moving.
:01:19. > :01:21.The Mayor and his transport bosses are beginning yet another
:01:22. > :01:35.And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political
:01:36. > :01:38.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:39. > :01:52.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:53. > :01:54.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:55. > :01:58.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:59. > :02:00.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:01. > :02:02.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:03. > :02:05.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:06. > :02:10.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:11. > :02:15.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:16. > :02:20.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:21. > :02:26.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:27. > :02:30.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:31. > :02:34.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:35. > :02:37.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:38. > :02:42.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:43. > :02:47.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:48. > :02:50.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:51. > :02:55.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:56. > :03:00.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:03:01. > :03:03.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:04. > :03:07.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:08. > :03:12.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:13. > :03:16.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:17. > :03:20.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:21. > :03:24.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:25. > :03:28.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:29. > :03:35.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:36. > :03:38.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:39. > :03:41.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:42. > :03:46.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:47. > :03:50.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:51. > :03:54.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:55. > :03:57.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:58. > :04:03.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:04. > :04:04.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:05. > :04:07.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:08. > :04:10.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:11. > :04:10.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:11. > :04:17.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:18. > :04:21.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:22. > :04:21.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:22. > :04:35.inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the
:04:36. > :04:41.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:42. > :04:43.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:44. > :04:51.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:52. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:56. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:56. > :05:03.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:04. > :05:03.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:04. > :05:06.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:07. > :05:12.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:13. > :05:15.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I
:05:16. > :05:19.in what a public inquiry can do I wonder whether there is another
:05:20. > :05:23.example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few
:05:24. > :05:26.years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry,
:05:27. > :05:29.the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I
:05:30. > :05:34.don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to
:05:35. > :05:37.your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on
:05:38. > :05:42.so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public
:05:43. > :05:44.sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers -
:05:45. > :05:46.will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes
:05:47. > :05:49.but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send
:05:50. > :05:51.a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again
:05:52. > :05:53.they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to
:05:54. > :06:00.the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest
:06:01. > :06:03.level for more than five years. So why is there still talk
:06:04. > :06:05.of austerity The deficit is coming down but much
:06:06. > :06:10.more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits -
:06:11. > :06:18.the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune
:06:19. > :06:26.of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way
:06:27. > :06:30.through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now
:06:31. > :06:33.saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling
:06:34. > :06:39.against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector
:06:40. > :06:43.pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period,
:06:44. > :06:50.prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector
:06:51. > :06:53.worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public
:06:54. > :07:01.sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC
:07:02. > :07:20.Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay
:07:21. > :07:26.squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take
:07:27. > :07:32.your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to
:07:33. > :07:36.let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this
:07:37. > :07:40.is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just
:07:41. > :07:46.because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have
:07:47. > :07:52.protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers
:07:53. > :07:56.who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These
:07:57. > :08:02.are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are
:08:03. > :08:07.necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the
:08:08. > :08:09.wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have
:08:10. > :08:14.to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep
:08:15. > :08:18.public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main
:08:19. > :08:22.ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is
:08:23. > :08:25.necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we
:08:26. > :08:28.want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the
:08:29. > :08:32.Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't
:08:33. > :08:36.listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't
:08:37. > :08:38.agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are
:08:39. > :08:44.finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea
:08:45. > :08:47.that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to
:08:48. > :08:55.millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found
:08:56. > :08:59.to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school
:09:00. > :09:03.meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living
:09:04. > :09:06.wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the
:09:07. > :09:11.least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a
:09:12. > :09:15.long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected
:09:16. > :09:20.them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they
:09:21. > :09:27.have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is
:09:28. > :09:30.up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in
:09:31. > :09:36.costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people
:09:37. > :09:41.from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average
:09:42. > :09:44.increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the
:09:45. > :09:49.top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we
:09:50. > :09:53.could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax
:09:54. > :09:57.and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive
:09:58. > :10:01.impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20
:10:02. > :10:05.pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have
:10:06. > :10:10.got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and
:10:11. > :10:13.we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,
:10:14. > :10:18.the top than we did before 2010 partly because we have encouraged
:10:19. > :10:23.them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we
:10:24. > :10:28.get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we
:10:29. > :10:31.get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you
:10:32. > :10:35.could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage
:10:36. > :10:41.through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being
:10:42. > :10:47.above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country,
:10:48. > :10:56.?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But
:10:57. > :11:01.not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much
:11:02. > :11:03.as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something
:11:04. > :11:08.I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum
:11:09. > :11:15.wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the
:11:16. > :11:21.impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while
:11:22. > :11:28.among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more
:11:29. > :11:35.than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according
:11:36. > :11:38.to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at
:11:39. > :11:44.the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are
:11:45. > :11:53.worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour
:11:54. > :11:57.compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the
:11:58. > :12:00.kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They
:12:01. > :12:06.are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be
:12:07. > :12:15.better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers.
:12:16. > :12:19.They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is
:12:20. > :12:23.worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole
:12:24. > :12:26.disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are
:12:27. > :12:31.against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what
:12:32. > :12:35.firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are
:12:36. > :12:39.protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government
:12:40. > :12:43.is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having
:12:44. > :12:48.cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the
:12:49. > :12:52.public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a
:12:53. > :12:58.Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books
:12:59. > :13:01.balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to
:13:02. > :13:06.be in surplus. It is testament... be in surplus. It is testament. .
:13:07. > :13:15.So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?
:13:16. > :13:19.Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:13:20. > :13:23.the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their
:13:24. > :13:26.credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look
:13:27. > :13:30.forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these
:13:31. > :13:33.strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking
:13:34. > :13:39.union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they
:13:40. > :13:47.think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point
:13:48. > :13:52.about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public
:13:53. > :13:59.service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds
:14:00. > :14:10.wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite
:14:11. > :14:17.and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One
:14:18. > :14:20.final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on
:14:21. > :14:22.this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail
:14:23. > :14:28.on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's
:14:29. > :14:33.planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true?
:14:34. > :14:37.Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going
:14:38. > :14:41.to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The
:14:42. > :14:45.Conservative Party is in Government on the basis of 23% of the
:14:46. > :14:49.electorate... We have run out of time. Thank you very much.
:14:50. > :14:52."Should Scotland be an independent country?"
:14:53. > :14:54.That's the question the people of Scotland will answer in a referendum
:14:55. > :14:58.If the polls are to be believed, the voters will answer "no".
:14:59. > :15:00.But in 2011 - ten weeks before the Holyrood elections - the polls
:15:01. > :15:02.told us that Labour was going to win and look what happened there - a
:15:03. > :15:07.Alistair Darling is leading the campaign against independnence.
:15:08. > :15:28.is one that puts the matter of independence to bed for a
:15:29. > :15:33.generation. In numerical terms, what would that be? We need a decisive
:15:34. > :15:37.result in September, I think we will get that provided we get our
:15:38. > :15:43.arguments across in the next couple of months. What would it be in
:15:44. > :15:50.figures? I am not going to put a number on it. People will look at it
:15:51. > :15:54.and say, OK, you have had two and a half years of debate and Scotland
:15:55. > :15:59.has now decided. The polls may be encouraging at the moment but I am
:16:00. > :16:04.not complacent, there is still a long way to go. Speculating... If
:16:05. > :16:09.you don't want to answer that, that is fair enough. Your side claims
:16:10. > :16:15.that a vote for independence is a vote for massive uncertainty but if
:16:16. > :16:19.it is a no vote there is lots of uncertainty too. All of the
:16:20. > :16:25.Westminster parties are promising devolution but there is no
:16:26. > :16:31.timetable, no certainty. Yes, there is. For the first time I can
:16:32. > :16:38.remember, all three parties are more or less on the same page in terms of
:16:39. > :16:43.additional powers, we already have powers in terms of policing and
:16:44. > :16:47.transport, now more powers are planned in relation to tax and
:16:48. > :16:55.welfare. But you are all saying different things. Between 2009 and
:16:56. > :16:59.2012, the three parties have slightly different proposals but
:17:00. > :17:04.they came together and there was an agreed series of reforms in relation
:17:05. > :17:12.to tax which are now on the statute book. If you go back to the
:17:13. > :17:15.devolutionary settlement in 1998, people unified around a single
:17:16. > :17:19.proposition so there is history here and these three parties have
:17:20. > :17:25.delivered and they will deliver in the event of people saying we will
:17:26. > :17:28.stay part of the UK. If Scotland vote no to independence, when will
:17:29. > :17:30.Scotland get these extra powers? vote no to independence, when will
:17:31. > :17:33.Scotland get these extra powers I would imagine that in the general
:17:34. > :17:39.election all three parties will have something in their manifesto and you
:17:40. > :17:42.would expect to see legislation in the session of Parliament that
:17:43. > :17:48.follows that. Imagining is not certainty. Because the three parties
:17:49. > :17:55.have said this is what they will do, and it is important having said that
:17:56. > :17:58.they stick to it. If you look in the past when the Nationalists said the
:17:59. > :18:06.same thing, when they cast doubt over what would happen in 2012, we
:18:07. > :18:09.delivered. The only party that walked out of both of these
:18:10. > :18:13.discussions were the Nationalists because they are not interested in
:18:14. > :18:17.more powers, they want a complete break. You cannot say that if
:18:18. > :18:23.Edinburgh gets more devolution that wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in
:18:24. > :18:30.Westminster, can you? Nobody has any plans to reduce the number of MPs.
:18:31. > :18:36.If you step back from this moment, what people have been asked to do in
:18:37. > :18:41.September is to vote on the future of their country, Scotland, and
:18:42. > :18:44.whether we should be part of the UK. When I say part of the UK, full
:18:45. > :18:48.members of the UK with representation in the House of
:18:49. > :18:52.Commons and the institutions that affect our lives. This is a
:18:53. > :19:00.critically important vote. We want to see more decentralisation of
:19:01. > :19:04.power to Scotland, and to local authorities within Scotland, but we
:19:05. > :19:09.don't want a complete break with the uncertainties, the risks and the
:19:10. > :19:19.downright disadvantages that would throw Scotland's away if we were to
:19:20. > :19:27.make that break. The economic arguments are dominating people's
:19:28. > :19:40.thinking, the polls show, that is what is dominating at the moment.
:19:41. > :19:45.You cannot guarantee continued membership of the European Union
:19:46. > :19:52.given all the talk now about an in-out UK referendum. Firstly I
:19:53. > :19:56.don't think anyone has ever argued Scotland wouldn't get back in. The
:19:57. > :20:00.big question is the terms and conditions we would have to meet and
:20:01. > :20:05.we are applying to get into something that is established, it
:20:06. > :20:10.wouldn't be a negotiation. What we have said is there is no way Europe
:20:11. > :20:15.would let Scotland keep the rebate which Scotland has, there would be
:20:16. > :20:22.big questions over whether we have to join the euro, and other terms
:20:23. > :20:27.and conditions. The European Union does not act with any great speed,
:20:28. > :20:33.on average it takes eight and a half years to get into Europe. I don't
:20:34. > :20:38.want that uncertainty or the disadvantages that would come
:20:39. > :20:43.Scotland's away that come with losing clout in the European Union.
:20:44. > :20:48.The second point you asked me about is in relation to the UK's
:20:49. > :20:53.membership of the European Union, and if you look at polls, the
:20:54. > :21:04.majority of people still want to stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of
:21:05. > :21:09.people on my side didn't make the argument against independence for a
:21:10. > :21:14.long time, we have been doing that over the last two and a half years
:21:15. > :21:20.and we are making progress and that is why I can say I think we will win
:21:21. > :21:23.provided we continue to get our arguments across. Similarly with the
:21:24. > :21:29.European Union, the case needs to be made because it is a powerful case.
:21:30. > :21:36.Isn't it true that the Nationalists win either way? They win if it is a
:21:37. > :21:46.yes vote, and they win if it is a no vote. They wanted devolution max so
:21:47. > :21:49.they win either way. There is a world of difference between
:21:50. > :21:55.devolution and further devolution where you remain part of the UK
:21:56. > :21:59.There is a world of difference between that and making a break
:22:00. > :22:04.where Scotland becomes a foreign country to the rest of the UK. You
:22:05. > :22:11.lose that security and those opportunities. You lose the same
:22:12. > :22:18.currency, the opportunity with pensions and so on. They are
:22:19. > :22:24.entitled to argue this case with passion, they want a break, but the
:22:25. > :22:30.two things are worlds apart. Gordon Brown said that the no campaign was
:22:31. > :22:34.too negative, have you adjusted to take that criticism into account?
:22:35. > :22:39.Ever since I launched this campaign over two years ago I said we would
:22:40. > :22:46.make a strong powerful case for remaining part of the UK. Look at
:22:47. > :22:50.our research, where we have had warnings from people to say that if
:22:51. > :22:56.we do well with research in Scotland we get more than our population
:22:57. > :23:00.share of the grand and we gain from that. There is a positive case but
:23:01. > :23:05.equally nobody will stop me from saying to the Nationalists, look at
:23:06. > :23:08.the assertions you make which are collapsing like skittles at the
:23:09. > :23:15.moment. Their assertions don't stand up. They assert that somehow milk
:23:16. > :23:19.and honey will be flowing. It is perfectly healthy within a
:23:20. > :23:27.referendum campaign to say that what you are saying simply isn't true.
:23:28. > :23:42.You have been negative, we all know about the so-called Cyber Nats book
:23:43. > :23:50.you compared Alex Salmond to the leader of North Korea. On! The
:23:51. > :23:56.context was that Alex Salmond was being asked why it was that UKIP had
:23:57. > :24:02.additional seat and he appeared to blame television being been doing
:24:03. > :24:11.from another country, from BBC South of the border. If you cannot have
:24:12. > :24:16.humour in a debate, heaven help us. I think it is important in this
:24:17. > :24:21.debate that people from outside politics should be allowed to have
:24:22. > :24:25.their say whatever side they are on because that will make for a far
:24:26. > :24:30.better, healthier debate. Nobody should be put in a state of fear and
:24:31. > :24:36.alarm by worrying about what will happen if they stand up. Despite the
:24:37. > :24:42.nastiness, more and more people are making a stand. We have run out of
:24:43. > :24:46.time. Thank you. I will be talking to the SNP's
:24:47. > :24:54.hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon
:24:55. > :24:58.next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will
:24:59. > :25:03.be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European
:25:04. > :25:09.elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a
:25:10. > :25:18.moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been
:25:19. > :25:33.asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister
:25:34. > :25:37.on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the
:25:38. > :25:41.Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire
:25:42. > :25:46.results in the local and European elections so what can the party do
:25:47. > :25:51.to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line
:25:52. > :25:57.one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local
:25:58. > :26:01.support? It is a massive problem because those are the building
:26:02. > :26:07.blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work
:26:08. > :26:13.done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock
:26:14. > :26:18.on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has
:26:19. > :26:22.lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name
:26:23. > :26:31.Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming
:26:32. > :26:37.Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge
:26:38. > :26:42.and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity
:26:43. > :26:47.at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a
:26:48. > :26:49.difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position
:26:50. > :26:52.itself to win back support? Let's does the party need to position
:26:53. > :26:58.itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party
:26:59. > :27:07.got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a
:27:08. > :27:10.party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a
:27:11. > :27:13.of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the
:27:14. > :27:17.next election because if we don t next election because if we don't
:27:18. > :27:23.people will vote for the Tories Nick, what do you think of the
:27:24. > :27:29.party's message at the moment? I have had a look at early draft of
:27:30. > :27:33.our manifesto and there is some good stuff in there but the authors are
:27:34. > :27:39.probably too interested in what may think we have achieved in the last
:27:40. > :28:09.five years and not really focusing on what the voters will want to be
:28:10. > :28:12.hearing about the next five years. Perhaps they should get out more and
:28:13. > :28:15.test some of these messages on the doorstep. So you want to see the top
:28:16. > :28:20.ranks of the party on the doorstep. Gareth online one also wants to make
:28:21. > :28:24.a point about the manifesto. There is clearly a problem somewhere near
:28:25. > :28:29.the top and there are some people who seem to be obsessed with power
:28:30. > :28:32.for power's sake, and happy with a timid offer but the Liberal
:28:33. > :28:38.Democrats want to change things. We are running out of time so let's try
:28:39. > :28:43.to squeeze one more call in. What are your thoughts on the long-term
:28:44. > :28:47.future of the party? I think serious long-term danger is that the party
:28:48. > :28:52.could be relegated to the fringes of the UK and no longer being a
:28:53. > :28:56.national party. We have gone back decades if that happens because for
:28:57. > :28:59.many years we have been represented in every part of the country at some
:29:00. > :29:02.level and we have got to rescue ourselves from that. Some
:29:03. > :29:07.interesting views but we are going to have to wait until the general
:29:08. > :29:11.election next year to find out how well the Lib Dems face up to these
:29:12. > :29:14.challenges. Thanks for listening, we are going to finish with an old
:29:15. > :29:17.classic now. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #.
:29:18. > :29:21.Nick Clegg, welcome to the programme. I want to come onto your
:29:22. > :29:25.situation in a minute but as you will have seen in the papers, there
:29:26. > :29:27.is mounting concern over and historic Westminster paedophile
:29:28. > :29:29.ring, and files relating to it mysteriously disappearing. Why are
:29:30. > :29:35.you against a full public enquiry into this? I wouldn't rule anything
:29:36. > :29:41.out. I think we should do anything it takes to uncover this and achieve
:29:42. > :30:01.justice. delivered, even all these many years
:30:02. > :30:04.later. How do you do it? There is an inquiry in the Home Office about
:30:05. > :30:08.what's happened to these documents, serious questions need to be asked
:30:09. > :30:11.about what happened in the Home Office and those questions need to
:30:12. > :30:16.be answered. There are inquiries in the BBC, in the NHS and most
:30:17. > :30:19.importantly of all the police are looking into the places where this
:30:20. > :30:26.abuse was alleged to have taken place. All I would say is, let's
:30:27. > :30:32.make sure that justice is delivered, truth is uncovered and I think that
:30:33. > :30:36.the way to do that, as we have seen, is by allowing the police to get on
:30:37. > :30:40.with their work. You say that, but there are only seven police involved
:30:41. > :30:43.in this inquiry. There are 195 involved in the hacking
:30:44. > :30:49.investigations. We can both agree that child abuse is more important
:30:50. > :30:52.and serious than hacking. The Home Office, there are reports that Home
:30:53. > :30:56.Office officials may have been mentioned in the dossier, people
:30:57. > :31:00.don't trust people to investigate themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept
:31:01. > :31:04.that we need to make sure that - and that we need to make sure that and
:31:05. > :31:05.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:06. > :31:09.thorough, well resourced. I can't thorough, well resourced. I can t
:31:10. > :31:14.think of anything more horrendous, I can't, than powerful people
:31:15. > :31:18.organising themselves and worse still, this is what is alleged,
:31:19. > :31:22.covering up for each other to abuse the most vulnerable people in
:31:23. > :31:26.society's care - children. But at the end of the day, the only way you
:31:27. > :31:31.can get people in the dock, the only way you can get people charged, is
:31:32. > :31:36.by allowing the prosecuting authorities and the police to do
:31:37. > :31:39.their job. I have an open mind about what other inquiries take place A
:31:40. > :31:43.number of other inquiries are taking place. I assume any additional
:31:44. > :31:46.inquiries wouldn't be able to second guess or look into the matters which
:31:47. > :31:50.the police are looking into already. All I would say is that people who
:31:51. > :31:53.have information, who want to provide information which they think
:31:54. > :31:57.is relevant to this, please get in touch with the police. Alright.
:31:58. > :32:02.Let's come on to our own inquiry into the state of the Lib Dems. You
:32:03. > :32:07.have attempted to distance yourself and the party from the Tories, but
:32:08. > :32:12.still stay in Government - it is called aggressive differentiation.
:32:13. > :32:18.Why isn't it working? It's not called aggressive differentiation.
:32:19. > :32:21.It is called "coalition". It is two parties who retain different
:32:22. > :32:25.identities, different values, have different aspirations for the
:32:26. > :32:28.future. But during this Parliament have come together because we were
:32:29. > :32:31.facing a unique national emergency back in 2010, the economy was
:32:32. > :32:40.teetering on the edge of a precipice.
:32:41. > :32:43.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:44. > :32:46.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:47. > :32:49.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:50. > :32:57.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:58. > :33:01.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:02. > :33:06.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:07. > :33:14.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:15. > :33:18.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:19. > :33:23.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:24. > :33:26.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:27. > :33:30.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:31. > :33:32.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:33. > :33:36.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:37. > :33:41.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:42. > :33:48.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:49. > :33:53.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:54. > :34:03.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:04. > :34:08.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:09. > :34:12.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:13. > :34:16.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:17. > :34:23.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:24. > :34:27.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:28. > :34:28.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties.
:34:29. > :34:28.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It
:34:29. > :34:31.Conservative and Labour parties. It is a big effort. Of course, there
:34:32. > :34:35.are lots of people from both left and right who want to shout us down
:34:36. > :34:40.and want to vilify our role in Government. What we also need to do
:34:41. > :34:44.- and Nick Harvey was quite right - having been proud of our record of
:34:45. > :34:50.delivery, we also need to set out in our manifesto as we are and as we
:34:51. > :34:58.will our promise of more, of more support in schools. So why is it
:34:59. > :35:03.then... Why is it then that a Lib Dem MP in our own film says you are
:35:04. > :35:06.in danger of no longer becoming a National Party. That could be the
:35:07. > :35:13.Clegg legacy, you cease to be a National Party? I'm a practical man.
:35:14. > :35:17.I believe passionately in what we have done in politics. I am so proud
:35:18. > :35:20.of my party. I don't spend that much time speculating that the end might
:35:21. > :35:27.be nigh. There is no point in doing that. Let's get out there, which is
:35:28. > :35:30.what I do in my own constituency, in challenges circumstances and say we
:35:31. > :35:33.are proud of what we have done, we have done a good thing for the
:35:34. > :35:37.country, we have delivered more Liberal Democrat policies than the
:35:38. > :35:40.party has ever dreamed delivering before. We have a programme of
:35:41. > :35:44.change, of reform, of liberal reform, which is very exciting. Just
:35:45. > :35:49.over the last few weeks, I have been setting out our plans to provide
:35:50. > :35:53.more help to carers, to make sure teachers in every classroom are
:35:54. > :35:58.properly qualified, that all kids in school are being taught a proper
:35:59. > :36:02.core curriculum. That parts company from the ideological rigidities with
:36:03. > :36:06.which the Conservatives deal with education policy. Those are thing
:36:07. > :36:13.which speak to many of the values that people who support us...
:36:14. > :36:19.Alright. When Mike Storey gets out and about, he told this programme
:36:20. > :36:23.two weeks' ago that he finds that you "are toxic on the doorstep".
:36:24. > :36:27.you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:28. > :36:30.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:31. > :36:35.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:36. > :36:39.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:40. > :36:43.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:44. > :36:46.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:47. > :36:50.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:51. > :36:52.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:53. > :36:56.good reason for that. They didn t good reason for that. They didn't
:36:57. > :37:00.win the election. The left say that somehow we have lost our soul when
:37:01. > :37:05.we haven't. That happens day in day out. Of course that will have some
:37:06. > :37:12.effect. My answer to that is not to buckle to those criticisms, those
:37:13. > :37:18.misplaced Chris -- criticisms from left and right, but to stand up
:37:19. > :37:24.proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an
:37:25. > :37:29.in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change?
:37:30. > :37:34.Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to
:37:35. > :37:37.flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives
:37:38. > :37:40.did. We want an in-out referendum. With ve legislated for the trigger
:37:41. > :37:43.when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the
:37:44. > :37:49.European Union. That is what we have said for years. We legislated for
:37:50. > :37:54.that... So no change? No change. Alright. We are expecting a
:37:55. > :37:59.reshuffle shortly. Will you keep Vince Cable as Business Secretary to
:38:00. > :38:06.the election? I'm immensely proud of what Vince has done. Yes, I intend
:38:07. > :38:10.to make sure that Vince continues to serve in the Government in his
:38:11. > :38:13.present capacity Look what he has done on apprenticeships, he's done
:38:14. > :38:16.more than many people for many years to make sure we build-up
:38:17. > :38:22.manufacturing, the north here, not just the south. I'm proud of what
:38:23. > :38:26.he's done. We have talked about some heavy things. We know you have got
:38:27. > :38:32.into kickboxing. Is there any danger of you becoming a mammal - you know
:38:33. > :38:39.what I mean - a middle-aged man in Lycra! Will the Tour de France
:38:40. > :38:46.influence you? Absolutely no risk of that whatsoever having seen the Tour
:38:47. > :38:53.de France start yesterday near Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire
:38:54. > :38:56.sign on my pullover. I will see them later whisk through my constituency.
:38:57. > :38:58.I will not try to emulate them. I'm sure that is to the relief of a
:38:59. > :39:02.grateful nation. Thank you. It's just gone 11.35, you're
:39:03. > :39:08.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:39:09. > :39:10.in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.
:39:11. > :39:12.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:13. > :39:19.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:39:20. > :39:24.This week we're working out how best to cross the river.
:39:25. > :39:27.When is East London going to get what west London has?
:39:28. > :39:32.Here today are Gavin Barwell, Conservative MP for Croydon Central,
:39:33. > :39:34.and Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North.
:39:35. > :39:40.First though to more race troubles for the Metropolitan Police.
:39:41. > :39:43.And an employment tribunal finding against the force.
:39:44. > :39:47.Firearms officer Carol Howard was the victim of sexual and racial
:39:48. > :39:53.But it emerged that references to discrimination were removed
:39:54. > :39:58.from the original internal Met report into her grievances.
:39:59. > :40:01.The Met commissioner said that was on legal advice.
:40:02. > :40:05.And on the discrimination itself, that it was the action
:40:06. > :40:22.It does do further damage? It is so important in a city like London with
:40:23. > :40:25.such a diverse population. I think to be fair to the current
:40:26. > :40:30.Commissioner, he understands that and I think he is making changes to
:40:31. > :40:37.try and build that confidence, but cases like this don't help do that.
:40:38. > :40:40.The thing that emerged which the tribunal alighted on, when it came
:40:41. > :40:45.to the internal report, they had to remove those references. That seems
:40:46. > :40:49.a cover-up, but does it not, when you think about it, make sense
:40:50. > :40:54.legally if this is then going to go to a tribunal that you are weakening
:40:55. > :40:58.your case? I think you have put your finger on it. You can see legally
:40:59. > :41:05.why they got that advice. It doesn't look good in terms of public
:41:06. > :41:08.opinion. Do you think the Metropolitan Police should put
:41:09. > :41:11.everything out there on every internal documentation if it is
:41:12. > :41:15.going to damage them? It is quite tough to say that for all documents
:41:16. > :41:19.because I don't know what the legal advice was. Clearly, the problem
:41:20. > :41:25.they have is this doesn't appear to be open and transparent. It comes on
:41:26. > :41:29.top of a long history going back to the beginnings of Stephen Lawrence,
:41:30. > :41:34.if not before, of concerns over how the Met is handling race. I
:41:35. > :41:38.understand there are 34 other cases of discrimination that have been
:41:39. > :41:42.settled. I think the GLA have referred this to the Mayor to look
:41:43. > :41:48.at those cases. When you see something like this, how do you
:41:49. > :41:52.think it helps the drive and recruitment for more black and
:41:53. > :41:55.ethnic minority officers? I work very closely with the Black Police
:41:56. > :42:01.Association and I know that part of their concern is that even now, I
:42:02. > :42:05.think Gavin is right, the Commissioner is trying to make
:42:06. > :42:08.progress. We only have 10% of London's police service who are
:42:09. > :42:15.black and ethnic minority in a city where half of the city are black and
:42:16. > :42:25.ethnic minority and that can't be good. The Met does want to see a
:42:26. > :42:28.more diverse police service. Does it make it less likely your
:42:29. > :42:33.constituents will come forward and say I want to be part of that force?
:42:34. > :42:38.I hope not. There are lots of great officers that do a really good job
:42:39. > :42:41.for our communities who want the Met to change and it doesn't help them
:42:42. > :42:44.in terms of the good work that they are doing.
:42:45. > :42:46.120 years ago this week, Tower Bridge was completed.
:42:47. > :42:49.But to the east of it London is short of crossings. Very short.
:42:50. > :42:52.Transport for London is now beginning yet another public
:42:53. > :42:55.consultation on what should be built.
:42:56. > :43:02.This week Tower Bridge celebrated its 120th anniversary.
:43:03. > :43:05.In the intervening century and a bit, London hasn't done
:43:06. > :43:11.Now, to the west of Tower Bridge there are 22 bridges
:43:12. > :43:16.If you look east, it's a completely different story,
:43:17. > :43:19.you have to leave London and go to Dartford until you see another
:43:20. > :43:27.Instead, East London has two tunnels - Blackwell and Rotherhithe
:43:28. > :43:35.NEWSREEL: The idea is to have nine arterial roads for fast traffic
:43:36. > :43:43.Another road crossing in the east has been on the cards for 70 years.
:43:44. > :43:47.The first serious attempt to build the bridge at Gallions Reach was
:43:48. > :43:49.thwarted by local opposition as it would have meant the
:43:50. > :43:52.destruction of historic woodlands.
:43:53. > :43:55.A plan came back under Ken Livingstone, but was scrapped again,
:43:56. > :44:04.This week the London Chamber of Commerce released this image
:44:05. > :44:06.of an East London crossing on the same spot.
:44:07. > :44:09.We all know we can build bridges, it's often the planning
:44:10. > :44:12.and consultation process which is difficult. That is why
:44:13. > :44:15.what we have been keen to do is emphasise the benefits that this
:44:16. > :44:20.Transport for London agree. And tomorrow are launching something
:44:21. > :44:23.like the tenth public consultation on building a bridge here at
:44:24. > :44:26.Gallions Reach - the same place planners have consistently failed to
:44:27. > :44:32.Now, in a similar period of time we have managed to
:44:33. > :44:36.completely change London's skyline, build the M25, throw up the Olympic
:44:37. > :44:42.So why have we not managed to build a bridge that goes
:44:43. > :44:51.Another piece of infrastructure that we have
:44:52. > :44:57.On it, I asked one of the bridge's biggest opponents why Gallions
:44:58. > :45:04.The bridge on the south side touches down at Gallions Reach.
:45:05. > :45:08.The traffic that would be flowing over the bridge would be going up
:45:09. > :45:12.There would be ten times the volume of traffic that's there now and the
:45:13. > :45:14.roads struggle with the volume that there is now.
:45:15. > :45:17.One of the routes it would have take is up a narrow country
:45:18. > :45:19.track called Knee Hill where two cars have trouble passing. When you
:45:20. > :45:23.are sending articulated lorries and lots more volume of other traffic,
:45:24. > :45:28.Transport for London say this time will be different
:45:29. > :45:31.as they are trying to build more than just the one crossing.
:45:32. > :45:35.Historically, we were promoting one crossing,
:45:36. > :45:39.crossing in the vicinity of the Gallions Reach and the
:45:40. > :45:41.original oproposal. We are promoting a series of crossings now.
:45:42. > :45:44.People do want a series of crossings. That will spread the load
:45:45. > :45:46.and dilute people's concerns about the environment.
:45:47. > :45:50.However the consultation on East London bridges
:45:51. > :45:52.goes, it is very likely that the next bridge the capital sees will be
:45:53. > :45:56.this, the garden bridge in Central London, conceived of and organised
:45:57. > :46:02.Construction is expected to start next year.
:46:03. > :46:05.When you are putting a pedestrian bridge in, people
:46:06. > :46:09.aren't so concerned about attracting more pedestrians to an area.
:46:10. > :46:13.When you put a bridge in that vehicles with four wheels
:46:14. > :46:15.can go on, people get concerned about it because they think you will
:46:16. > :46:20.Along with being less contentious, the garden bridge is largely
:46:21. > :46:23.privately funded and goes across a narrower part of the Thames.
:46:24. > :46:26.Perhaps all reasons why building bridges is some
:46:27. > :46:48.discussion with Joanna Lumley and Lord Adonis, former Transport
:46:49. > :46:53.Secretary. You have been doing work on east London crossings for a think
:46:54. > :47:01.tank. Would you reinstate the Thames Gate Bridge which Boris Johnson
:47:02. > :47:06.rejected? Definitely. There was growing issues to do with how you
:47:07. > :47:12.would handle traffic coming from the south but the case for the bridge in
:47:13. > :47:16.terms of economic development is overwhelmingly strong and that is
:47:17. > :47:21.now generally recognised. The piece of work I am doing will reinforce
:47:22. > :47:27.the argument for that. Same place, broadly the same kind of offer that
:47:28. > :47:32.was their five or six years ago? Similar but you need to work out how
:47:33. > :47:37.you can best handle the traffic coming from the south so there is an
:47:38. > :47:40.issue there, but without the bridge you will not get the degree of
:47:41. > :47:45.economic development and in particular housing that is so
:47:46. > :47:50.desperately needed... What would be the issue on the south? You are
:47:51. > :47:57.pinpointing the issues about existing very narrow roads, what do
:47:58. > :48:04.you do about it? Widen roads? Get rid of woodlands? You could also
:48:05. > :48:08.tunnel more, so there are different options for handling the traffic and
:48:09. > :48:13.they need to be options for things that would happen rather than
:48:14. > :48:17.obstacles to building the bridge and giving this essential new economic
:48:18. > :48:21.generator that is required. We often get stuck seeing the problems rather
:48:22. > :48:27.than working through the solutions. Those bridges west of Tower Bridge,
:48:28. > :48:32.can you imagine the life of London if we only had half of them? We talk
:48:33. > :48:40.about east London as a massive growth corridor, and yet the biggest
:48:41. > :48:47.obstacle holding back the development is the fact you cannot
:48:48. > :48:54.get across the Thames. If Boris Johnson have not made that
:48:55. > :49:00.decision, would you have built it? The bridge would have been opening
:49:01. > :49:04.this year. I think it was a mistake to have cancelled it. All of the
:49:05. > :49:09.money was there, there was overwhelming support from the local
:49:10. > :49:18.authority is engaged. In this issue of Bexley, in the last Transport for
:49:19. > :49:24.London consultation a majority of respondents in Bexley backed the
:49:25. > :49:29.bridge. They would have backed it even if it had gone straight into
:49:30. > :49:33.the existing road system without further changes. The economic
:49:34. > :49:38.benefit north and south of the river is vital. You have got all of the
:49:39. > :49:43.massive housing developments in Barking which are proposed. In
:49:44. > :49:48.Transport for London's own assessment of what is holding that
:49:49. > :49:52.development, the absence of a Thames crossing is the biggest single
:49:53. > :49:58.factor so we have to sort this out. It is not a party political thing,
:49:59. > :50:03.it goes into the classic divide of action and inaction. Let's get you
:50:04. > :50:08.on that for a moment, what do you think when you hear that? I think
:50:09. > :50:13.there should be three or four river crossings, it is vitally important.
:50:14. > :50:28.If you cannot get across the Thames, you either get stuck in one of those
:50:29. > :50:34.tunnels, or you have got to clog up London fighting your way across
:50:35. > :50:46.There were plans in 2008. Yes, I remember plans covering half a mile
:50:47. > :50:52.of the river. Why are they not built? There is no comparison. The
:50:53. > :50:57.truth is that ours is a different bridge, it is for pedestrians and it
:50:58. > :51:02.is different thing than for articulated lorries, and the
:51:03. > :51:09.distance we have got. As the Thames widens out, it is huge and I think
:51:10. > :51:15.maybe a lot of the will goes when we see how much money because I don't
:51:16. > :51:16.know how much it was going to cost originally? In the vicinity of 500
:51:17. > :51:23.originally? In the vicinity of 00 million. I want to bring Gavin in
:51:24. > :51:28.very quickly, you are a London MP. It could have been built by now but
:51:29. > :51:33.for the decision Boris Johnson made. What do you think about that? It
:51:34. > :51:40.looks like he is now thinking that we do need one after all. I think
:51:41. > :51:45.Andrew's divide is right, I think if we look at the issues we face as
:51:46. > :51:49.London MPs they are nearly all symptoms of the success London is
:51:50. > :51:53.having. I think this is a better potential plan, both because it is
:51:54. > :51:59.looking at several crossings and it is important to address the issues
:52:00. > :52:06.around the connection. Would you accept, be honest and say, it is a
:52:07. > :52:11.pity we didn't act in 2008? It is certainly a pity we didn't have the
:52:12. > :52:14.right solution but this looks like a better solution with a connection at
:52:15. > :52:21.the southern end of the bridge. Which would be more important to
:52:22. > :52:27.your constituents, a garden bridge... That is not quite fair! In
:52:28. > :52:32.terms of long-term decisions, the crossings further down are
:52:33. > :52:38.important. I don't really think it is a question of one or the other.
:52:39. > :52:43.He might have said he doesn't like your garden bridge! Let's talk about
:52:44. > :52:53.that for a moment, you were involved right at the beginning. Why? It was
:52:54. > :52:58.my idea. Where did it come from? Because I love gardens and I love
:52:59. > :53:04.bridges, I used to draw them when I was younger. I came to London late
:53:05. > :53:08.in life when I was 18 and fell in love with the city. Everything that
:53:09. > :53:15.makes London more lovely, I adore. Were you trying to get it off the
:53:16. > :53:21.ground before the millennium Bridge? Yes, the idea was put in for the
:53:22. > :53:25.competition for what would be the memorial for the Princess of Wales
:53:26. > :53:31.when she died and it was pipped to the post by what they have now. We
:53:32. > :53:36.had the Transport for London saying it is much easier when you look in
:53:37. > :53:41.terms of pedestrians, but what about the cost? Two thirds from the
:53:42. > :53:49.Government or the mayor? No, the bridge is going to cost 275 million,
:53:50. > :53:54.the Government gave us 30 million which is extremely generous. It is a
:53:55. > :54:00.London thoroughfare so it gave us another 30, we have a lot of VAT to
:54:01. > :54:06.pay. The rest is donations from the public which we haven't gone to yet.
:54:07. > :54:12.You will do that when you have a final set of plans. You're planning
:54:13. > :54:15.application has to be ticked off. We know the financial issues around
:54:16. > :54:20.these bridges, why should there be any public money going into a bridge
:54:21. > :54:25.like this, which might by comparison be seen as a vanity project,
:54:26. > :54:32.something that enhances the capital. For whom? In terms of the
:54:33. > :54:37.capital's feeling for itself. Do you think public money should be going
:54:38. > :54:44.into that? We have seen the shortage of transport facilities. I don't No,
:54:45. > :54:52.I'm not sure it would be right to have it entirely private money.
:54:53. > :54:58.London belongs to Londoners, we pay our taxes. You are talking as if we
:54:59. > :55:01.are stealing it from something. No, asking the question because we know
:55:02. > :55:16.that private money has to be involved in almost everything. With
:55:17. > :55:23.the PFI as well... What would your plan B? It is going to be a big
:55:24. > :55:32.cultural attraction bringing big revenues. 5.5 million visitors to
:55:33. > :55:39.the Tate modern last year and that institution didn't exist 14 years
:55:40. > :55:44.ago. It will be the same with Joanna's bridge, it will be one of
:55:45. > :55:50.the reasons people come to London. Karen, do you agree with that? Do
:55:51. > :55:55.you have an issue where there are limited public funds, where do they
:55:56. > :56:00.go? You are never going to make totally optimum decisions on this
:56:01. > :56:03.because you would only end up building one crossing and no other
:56:04. > :56:09.transport elsewhere in the capital so I think it is right that
:56:10. > :56:13.investment capital is the key to unlocking growth. I think it is
:56:14. > :56:17.right there should be a partnership in terms of funding something like
:56:18. > :56:22.the garden bridge because if you look at New York and what they have
:56:23. > :56:28.done with their elevated railways, it is a fantastic announcement of
:56:29. > :56:34.the city. Give me an idea of how you would like it to feel. I think
:56:35. > :56:36.quiet, I love the river and the difficulty is that wherever you
:56:37. > :56:41.cross the river... I difficulty is that wherever you
:56:42. > :56:45.bridges, I am not saying it will be better but it
:56:46. > :56:51.completely quiet. The millennium Bridge is quiet but it is like a
:56:52. > :56:56.knife, completely straight. What are the issues going to be about getting
:56:57. > :57:02.it passed the planners? I will not touch wood because there is none in
:57:03. > :57:06.the studio, that is cruel. It seems that our planning application will
:57:07. > :57:11.go through successfully. It has been approved by everybody because we
:57:12. > :57:16.have spoken to the bowlers on both sides and everybody has had their
:57:17. > :57:22.import and so on. -- spoken to be London boroughs. I want to come back
:57:23. > :57:26.to this money thing because I pay my taxes properly and every single
:57:27. > :57:39.penny I should pay so that this country can develop. I don't mind
:57:40. > :57:44.that they employ MPs to be our voices. I don't think I want to be
:57:45. > :57:48.the person to say, I don't think you should allow money to go here or
:57:49. > :57:52.there. That is not my job. A guarantee here that will a Labour
:57:53. > :57:55.government from next year, that river crossing with some private
:57:56. > :58:01.finance arrangement will be right back on the table and work can go
:58:02. > :58:09.straight away? Labour would go ahead with it. Without it, we won't get
:58:10. > :58:13.the housing, the economic development and the opening up of
:58:14. > :58:19.the Thames Gateway we need to seek, but we also need Joanna's bridge, it
:58:20. > :58:25.is visionary. There are so many bridges, we cannot talk about them
:58:26. > :58:27.any more. Now it is time for the rest of this week's political news
:58:28. > :58:46.in 60 seconds. From today Londoners will no longer
:58:47. > :58:49.be able to pay for their bus journeys using cash. Only Oyster
:58:50. > :58:52.Cards, Travelcards, Freedom Passes and contactless payments will be
:58:53. > :58:54.accepted. Transport for London claim a tiny fraction of journeys are paid
:58:55. > :58:57.for using cash. Golf courses take up 1%
:58:58. > :59:00.of the land in the UK. It could be better used to provide
:59:01. > :59:02.homes, says Green Assembly Member Jenny Jones. She argues that golf
:59:03. > :59:05.courses could limit the building of Department for Education statistics
:59:06. > :59:08.show disadvantaged pupils in Inner London are more likely to
:59:09. > :59:12.go to university than much better off youngsters outside the capital
:59:13. > :59:15.with 63% of poor pupils in London's schools and colleges progressing
:59:16. > :59:17.into higher education. A review by the Electoral Commission
:59:18. > :59:20.into vote counting for the local and European elections in Tower Hamlets
:59:21. > :59:23.has found the management of the count was inadequate. The final ward
:59:24. > :59:26.results were not declared until 27th May, five days after votes
:59:27. > :59:43.were cast. Karen, cashless buses, sensible now?
:59:44. > :59:48.Broadly but I do worry about what will happen to the tourists, the
:59:49. > :59:53.people who are not necessarily following this. I worry about what
:59:54. > :59:58.will happen to people late at night who don't have their Oyster card and
:59:59. > :00:03.will get kicked off. Because we are moving towards fewer laughing and
:00:04. > :00:10.good staffing levels at stations as well, it feels it is a sensible way
:00:11. > :00:13.to proceed but you do need to make sure there is a proper backstop in
:00:14. > :00:15.well, it feels it is a sensible way to proceed but you do need to terms
:00:16. > :00:18.of service systems to help struggling people. This will
:00:19. > :00:24.backfire badly if of 16-year-old girl is toned down and rejected,
:00:25. > :00:27.what safeguards are there? There is a good pilot that Transport for
:00:28. > :00:33.London have been planning which is that if you don't have your Oyster
:00:34. > :00:40.card, you can have one extra journey so you can still get the bus home.
:00:41. > :00:46.The word discretionary was in there. No, you get one extra journey and
:00:47. > :00:51.with that safeguard, that is the sensible way. What about Oyster
:00:52. > :00:57.cards that have been damaged or lost? I agree with Karen, there are
:00:58. > :01:02.points of detail around how those situations will work but overall, I
:01:03. > :01:09.think ten years ago 20% of people were paying in cash, it is now under
:01:10. > :01:15.1%. They have got to find ways of delivering the service while saving
:01:16. > :01:19.money. Quickly, recognition for what Labour did... Poor students are
:01:20. > :01:23.outperforming other poor students elsewhere in the country. The
:01:24. > :01:27.Academy programme that Andrew and Tony Blair started was one of the
:01:28. > :01:33.best things the Labour government did and Michael Gove and the Tory
:01:34. > :01:37.government is taking that forward. In Wales where they are resisting
:01:38. > :01:41.the programme, the evidence is really compelling. The thing is
:01:42. > :01:46.about what the Conservatives have done is that they have taken the
:01:47. > :01:48.Academy programme and Labour reforms that Labour did in to their logical
:01:49. > :01:53.conclusion and make them better. conclusion and make them better
:01:54. > :01:59.Funnily enough and introduced chaos and waste, but the critical thing is
:02:00. > :02:04.that although the academies in the most deprived areas were a great
:02:05. > :02:11.success, and I have a number of them and I am delighted with them, the
:02:12. > :02:15.research indicates that most of the progress in London was being made
:02:16. > :02:17.before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to
:02:18. > :02:21.you. What will Thursday's mass
:02:22. > :02:23.public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker
:02:24. > :02:25.attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking
:02:26. > :02:48.about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt
:02:49. > :02:53.Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the
:02:54. > :02:57.TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be
:02:58. > :03:01.telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that
:03:02. > :03:08.and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any
:03:09. > :03:15.economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because
:03:16. > :03:19.the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector
:03:20. > :03:24.job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the
:03:25. > :03:29.economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so
:03:30. > :03:33.they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years
:03:34. > :03:38.ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is
:03:39. > :03:43.naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,
:03:44. > :03:48.they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come
:03:49. > :03:53.out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram
:03:54. > :03:56.Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of
:03:57. > :03:59.strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question
:04:00. > :04:03.that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.
:04:04. > :04:05.The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --
:04:06. > :04:10.this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this
:04:11. > :04:14.idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.
:04:15. > :04:18.Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to
:04:19. > :04:27.talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal
:04:28. > :04:31.for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike
:04:32. > :04:34.law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to
:04:35. > :04:39.stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze
:04:40. > :04:44.or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till
:04:45. > :04:50.2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.
:04:51. > :04:52.This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At
:04:53. > :04:55.strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour
:04:56. > :05:01.Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,
:05:02. > :05:06.not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time
:05:07. > :05:12.round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about
:05:13. > :05:16.wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the
:05:17. > :05:24.recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky
:05:25. > :05:28.territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something
:05:29. > :05:35.out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase
:05:36. > :05:38.in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a
:05:39. > :05:41.problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they
:05:42. > :05:46.would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are
:05:47. > :05:49.locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going
:05:50. > :05:58.to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some
:05:59. > :06:03.politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do
:06:04. > :06:07.we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan
:06:08. > :06:12.Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are
:06:13. > :06:15.some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse
:06:16. > :06:20.Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do
:06:21. > :06:25.on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile
:06:26. > :06:30.state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or
:06:31. > :06:35.in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was
:06:36. > :06:38.a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten
:06:39. > :06:42.months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember
:06:43. > :06:50.them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that
:06:51. > :07:02.last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were
:07:03. > :07:06.trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had
:07:07. > :07:13.something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There
:07:14. > :07:17.are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance
:07:18. > :07:20.of it! If the most recent polls are to be
:07:21. > :07:23.believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -
:07:24. > :07:26.clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the
:07:27. > :07:29.appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission
:07:30. > :07:32.president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP
:07:33. > :07:35.contingent to Strasbourg for the first session
:07:36. > :07:55.of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to
:07:56. > :07:59.say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50
:08:00. > :08:03.years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that
:08:04. > :08:08.want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our
:08:09. > :08:15.countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we
:08:16. > :08:22.will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!
:08:23. > :08:24.It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the
:08:25. > :08:27.Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.
:08:28. > :08:29.Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -
:08:30. > :08:31.Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.
:08:32. > :08:42.Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is
:08:43. > :08:48.probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know
:08:49. > :08:51.well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my
:08:52. > :08:56.qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are
:08:57. > :09:01.your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of
:09:02. > :09:07.UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative
:09:08. > :09:13.values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It
:09:14. > :09:18.would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block
:09:19. > :09:21.of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have
:09:22. > :09:24.that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the
:09:25. > :09:29.luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He
:09:30. > :09:34.would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to
:09:35. > :09:38.stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little
:09:39. > :09:41.sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people
:09:42. > :09:45.who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority
:09:46. > :09:49.Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are
:09:50. > :09:54.offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of
:09:55. > :09:59.those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will
:10:00. > :10:04.put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is
:10:05. > :10:11.between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle
:10:12. > :10:15.Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The
:10:16. > :10:19.danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of
:10:20. > :10:23.the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of
:10:24. > :10:28.the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of
:10:29. > :10:37.Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have
:10:38. > :10:44.full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining
:10:45. > :10:52.us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a
:10:53. > :10:59.bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's
:11:00. > :11:04.isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,
:11:05. > :11:05.but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.
:11:06. > :11:09.his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is
:11:10. > :11:13.possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment
:11:14. > :11:25.of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically
:11:26. > :11:30.and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We
:11:31. > :11:37.saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005
:11:38. > :11:40.General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.
:11:41. > :11:44.The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering
:11:45. > :11:49.12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his
:11:50. > :11:53.veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is
:11:54. > :11:58.embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.
:11:59. > :12:03.He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not
:12:04. > :12:12.conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the
:12:13. > :12:18.polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are
:12:19. > :12:20.supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different -
:12:21. > :12:23.is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a
:12:24. > :12:29.different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.
:12:30. > :12:32.He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered
:12:33. > :12:36.accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local
:12:37. > :12:40.people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in
:12:41. > :12:44.real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of
:12:45. > :12:47.the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David
:12:48. > :12:52.Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to
:12:53. > :12:56.MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't
:12:57. > :13:01.take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,
:13:02. > :13:06.quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he
:13:07. > :13:13.said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold
:13:14. > :13:18.Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said
:13:19. > :13:20.darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.
:13:21. > :13:23.Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back
:13:24. > :13:27.at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:28. > :13:33.next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll
:13:34. > :13:38.be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:39. > :13:45.it's the Sunday Politics.