21/09/2014

:00:09. > :00:13.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:14. > :00:15.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

:00:16. > :00:54.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:55. > :00:59.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north

:01:00. > :01:07.But what about Home Rule for England?

:01:08. > :01:12.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:13. > :01:17.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

:01:18. > :01:23.got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to be Labour MPs

:01:24. > :01:30.think about immigration, the cue and their party. We will ask the Shadow

:01:31. > :01:33.Business Secretary if he agrees In London, thoughts of more tax-raising

:01:34. > :01:46.powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step

:01:47. > :01:49.for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

:01:50. > :01:54.business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

:01:55. > :01:59.Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

:02:00. > :02:05.other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

:02:06. > :02:07.but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

:02:08. > :02:11.enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

:02:12. > :02:18.it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons

:02:19. > :02:22.of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

:02:23. > :02:32.the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

:02:33. > :02:35.has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

:02:36. > :02:42.they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only

:02:43. > :02:46.votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

:02:47. > :02:49.justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

:02:50. > :02:58.House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -

:02:59. > :03:00.cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David

:03:01. > :03:04.Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris

:03:05. > :03:08.Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr

:03:09. > :03:11.Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood

:03:12. > :03:21.and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he

:03:22. > :03:29.They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the

:03:30. > :03:37.Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is

:03:38. > :03:41.a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the

:03:42. > :03:45.ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He

:03:46. > :03:49.knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a

:03:50. > :03:53.draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they

:03:54. > :03:55.had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve

:03:56. > :04:03.these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they

:04:04. > :04:09.don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about

:04:10. > :04:13.is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at

:04:14. > :04:18.the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an

:04:19. > :04:21.overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern

:04:22. > :04:25.Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is

:04:26. > :04:30.whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he

:04:31. > :04:35.would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get

:04:36. > :04:40.either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause

:04:41. > :04:46.Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband

:04:47. > :04:49.this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why

:04:50. > :04:54.shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this

:04:55. > :04:59.morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and

:05:00. > :05:03.English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is

:05:04. > :05:07.in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his

:05:08. > :05:12.announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in

:05:13. > :05:15.Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if

:05:16. > :05:19.Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is

:05:20. > :05:23.handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural

:05:24. > :05:28.Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory

:05:29. > :05:31.backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be

:05:32. > :05:34.in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet

:05:35. > :05:41.think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a

:05:42. > :05:44.partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on

:05:45. > :05:51.course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,

:05:52. > :05:54.and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the

:05:55. > :05:59.Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in

:06:00. > :06:03.sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this

:06:04. > :06:09.one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle

:06:10. > :06:13.to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband

:06:14. > :06:14.and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett

:06:15. > :06:16.Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,

:06:17. > :06:19.but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how

:06:20. > :06:21.the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,

:06:22. > :06:24.Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,

:06:25. > :06:26.because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher

:06:27. > :06:28.in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs

:06:29. > :06:30.aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the

:06:31. > :06:43.Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How

:06:44. > :06:46.can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just

:06:47. > :06:53.about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we

:06:54. > :06:56.are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers

:06:57. > :06:59.of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the

:07:00. > :07:03.wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we

:07:04. > :07:06.should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to

:07:07. > :07:10.the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett

:07:11. > :07:14.Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively

:07:15. > :07:19.prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance

:07:20. > :07:22.staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is

:07:23. > :07:26.more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland

:07:27. > :07:30.than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very

:07:31. > :07:34.poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That

:07:35. > :07:39.they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the

:07:40. > :07:45.Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand

:07:46. > :07:48.the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster

:07:49. > :07:53.politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to

:07:54. > :07:59.rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your

:08:00. > :08:02.leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of

:08:03. > :08:08.all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the

:08:09. > :08:10.Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was

:08:11. > :08:13.counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing

:08:14. > :08:18.voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep

:08:19. > :08:23.proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We

:08:24. > :08:27.said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes

:08:28. > :08:30.on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,

:08:31. > :08:34.pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of

:08:35. > :08:39.the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a

:08:40. > :08:44.Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double

:08:45. > :08:49.standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly

:08:50. > :08:56.unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is

:08:57. > :09:01.unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland

:09:02. > :09:05.gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London.

:09:06. > :09:08.oil revenues it sends to London Scotland is only getting back on

:09:09. > :09:11.spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that

:09:12. > :09:19.suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let

:09:20. > :09:25.me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the

:09:26. > :09:31.Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A

:09:32. > :09:35.huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting

:09:36. > :09:38.North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need

:09:39. > :09:41.to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the

:09:42. > :09:47.Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and

:09:48. > :09:51.grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we

:09:52. > :09:56.need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,

:09:57. > :09:59.when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local

:10:00. > :10:02.authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland

:10:03. > :10:08.must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The

:10:09. > :10:12.Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for

:10:13. > :10:15.Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't

:10:16. > :10:19.he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?

:10:20. > :10:23.Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the

:10:24. > :10:29.heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth

:10:30. > :10:35.is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and

:10:36. > :10:38.English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot

:10:39. > :10:43.of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is

:10:44. > :10:47.unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should

:10:48. > :10:49.deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let's

:10:50. > :10:52.devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,

:10:53. > :10:56.and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's

:10:57. > :10:58.leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

:10:59. > :11:00.The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from

:11:01. > :11:03.the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex

:11:04. > :11:06.Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us

:11:07. > :11:08.another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand

:11:09. > :11:12.Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.

:11:13. > :11:15.In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,

:11:16. > :11:18.but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke

:11:19. > :11:40.The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for

:11:41. > :11:43.Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big

:11:44. > :11:47.screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories

:11:48. > :11:50.high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The

:11:51. > :11:56.other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is

:11:57. > :12:00.enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot

:12:01. > :12:13.papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000

:12:14. > :12:19.and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the

:12:20. > :12:22.first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like

:12:23. > :12:28.Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to

:12:29. > :12:37.sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you

:12:38. > :12:40.small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign

:12:41. > :12:47.applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went

:12:48. > :12:49.their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for

:12:50. > :12:55.independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of

:12:56. > :12:59.tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the

:13:00. > :13:05.refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy

:13:06. > :13:09.place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British

:13:10. > :13:14.establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this

:13:15. > :13:19.referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the

:13:20. > :13:24.establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.

:13:25. > :13:29.But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC

:13:30. > :13:32.called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence.

:13:33. > :13:32.called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The

:13:33. > :13:36.this referendum on independence. The result, in Fife, has taken the no

:13:37. > :13:42.campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum

:13:43. > :13:47.is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has

:13:48. > :13:51.said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of

:13:52. > :13:54.the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more

:13:55. > :13:59.devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.

:14:00. > :14:02.Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish

:14:03. > :14:07.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,

:14:08. > :14:10.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on

:14:11. > :14:17.these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same

:14:18. > :14:22.pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we

:14:23. > :14:29.might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?

:14:30. > :14:36.Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not

:14:37. > :14:40.next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex

:14:41. > :14:46.Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my

:14:47. > :14:54.time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,

:14:55. > :14:57.and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the

:14:58. > :15:03.Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.

:15:04. > :15:09.Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows

:15:10. > :15:13.no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in

:15:14. > :15:19.Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to

:15:20. > :15:23.resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it

:15:24. > :15:28.Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we

:15:29. > :15:32.were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I

:15:33. > :15:38.considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch

:15:39. > :15:47.time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not

:15:48. > :15:53.really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have

:15:54. > :15:59.to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility

:16:00. > :16:03.and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need

:16:04. > :16:07.a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,

:16:08. > :16:11.you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future

:16:12. > :16:16.political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP

:16:17. > :16:20.and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they

:16:21. > :16:24.would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the

:16:25. > :16:30.campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were

:16:31. > :16:37.going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the

:16:38. > :16:42.campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought

:16:43. > :16:47.we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the

:16:48. > :16:50.fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at

:16:51. > :16:54.Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real

:16:55. > :16:59.thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of

:17:00. > :17:03.people that had been moving across to independence saw within that, a

:17:04. > :17:08.reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the

:17:09. > :17:13.perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only

:17:14. > :17:20.five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city.

:17:21. > :17:26.There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an

:17:27. > :17:31.enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,

:17:32. > :17:36.though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In

:17:37. > :17:40.Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is

:17:41. > :17:44.what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,

:17:45. > :17:50.leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong

:17:51. > :17:55.and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do

:17:56. > :18:00.a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been

:18:01. > :18:05.leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give

:18:06. > :18:08.somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that

:18:09. > :18:15.well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the

:18:16. > :18:20.national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,

:18:21. > :18:23.the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the

:18:24. > :18:26.referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the

:18:27. > :18:33.political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met

:18:34. > :18:36.just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that

:18:37. > :18:43.there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.

:18:44. > :18:47.Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any

:18:48. > :18:54.campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer

:18:55. > :18:58.not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be

:18:59. > :19:02.called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I

:19:03. > :19:06.will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,

:19:07. > :19:10.broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political

:19:11. > :19:14.campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an

:19:15. > :19:19.energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.

:19:20. > :19:20.It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which

:19:21. > :19:27.carried the Yes Campaign so far, carried the Yes Campaign so far

:19:28. > :19:31.almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you,

:19:32. > :19:40.put his Scottish Sun behind you would have that made the difference?

:19:41. > :19:47.If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not

:19:48. > :19:52.say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure

:19:53. > :19:59.about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other

:20:00. > :20:01.papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish

:20:02. > :20:06.independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced

:20:07. > :20:16.and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers I

:20:17. > :20:19.would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We

:20:20. > :20:24.certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I

:20:25. > :20:29.think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have

:20:30. > :20:40.liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if

:20:41. > :20:44.you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he

:20:45. > :20:49.defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has

:20:50. > :20:54.always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that

:20:55. > :20:56.can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union, for

:20:57. > :20:59.moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of

:21:00. > :21:03.circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and

:21:04. > :21:09.I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am

:21:10. > :21:13.just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally

:21:14. > :21:19.shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?

:21:20. > :21:22.You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that

:21:23. > :21:27.essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants

:21:28. > :21:30.to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that

:21:31. > :21:35.because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this

:21:36. > :21:39.and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are

:21:40. > :21:42.frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority

:21:43. > :21:47.in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an

:21:48. > :21:53.irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is

:21:54. > :21:56.movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something

:21:57. > :21:59.cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I

:22:00. > :22:05.think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It

:22:06. > :22:10.was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,

:22:11. > :22:16.effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and

:22:17. > :22:23.David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about

:22:24. > :22:30.the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that

:22:31. > :22:35.matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you

:22:36. > :22:41.advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or

:22:42. > :22:48.her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader

:22:49. > :22:53.brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very

:22:54. > :23:00.favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined

:23:01. > :23:03.since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in

:23:04. > :23:15.the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity

:23:16. > :23:19.for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would

:23:20. > :23:25.repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First

:23:26. > :23:28.Minister of Scotland. On Friday, coming back to the north-east of

:23:29. > :23:35.Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --

:23:36. > :23:39.substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my

:23:40. > :23:48.head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last

:23:49. > :23:55.line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not

:23:56. > :23:59.seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the

:24:00. > :24:04.Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?

:24:05. > :24:11.What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is

:24:12. > :24:14.dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose

:24:15. > :24:19.to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a

:24:20. > :24:22.constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line

:24:23. > :24:26.politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do

:24:27. > :24:33.it properly, I am sure they did. But I love it. You get distilled wisdom

:24:34. > :24:36.from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your

:24:37. > :24:39.feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to

:24:40. > :24:44.people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of

:24:45. > :24:52.Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes!

:24:53. > :25:02.will never be Lord Salmond? Yes Thanks for joining us. Great

:25:03. > :25:06.pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over, the

:25:07. > :25:10.next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven

:25:11. > :25:16.months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what

:25:17. > :25:21.are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for

:25:22. > :25:23.the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an

:25:24. > :25:29.exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.

:25:30. > :25:32.Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public

:25:33. > :25:36.spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them

:25:37. > :25:41.want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.

:25:42. > :25:45.18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the

:25:46. > :25:51.number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to

:25:52. > :25:54.immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with

:25:55. > :25:58.trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too

:25:59. > :26:04.close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the

:26:05. > :26:09.nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the

:26:10. > :26:17.railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their

:26:18. > :26:22.preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for

:26:23. > :26:29.the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many

:26:30. > :26:32.left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of

:26:33. > :26:34.candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in

:26:35. > :26:36.terms of what is left and right. think your viewers see politics in

:26:37. > :26:38.terms of what is left and right I terms of what is left and right. I

:26:39. > :26:42.think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many

:26:43. > :26:46.of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next

:26:47. > :26:49.generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your

:26:50. > :26:53.viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they

:26:54. > :26:57.can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the

:26:58. > :27:01.public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want

:27:02. > :27:04.to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they

:27:05. > :27:07.don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap

:27:08. > :27:12.Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party

:27:13. > :27:16.policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our

:27:17. > :27:20.policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over

:27:21. > :27:23.?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that

:27:24. > :27:31.enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk

:27:32. > :27:35.to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns

:27:36. > :27:38.about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,

:27:39. > :27:42.yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they

:27:43. > :27:46.take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural

:27:47. > :27:49.nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't

:27:50. > :27:55.think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's

:27:56. > :28:01.not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:28:02. > :28:05.described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:06. > :28:10.that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions

:28:11. > :28:13.that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t

:28:14. > :28:18.think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the

:28:19. > :28:22.heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,

:28:23. > :28:26.radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy? It

:28:27. > :28:30.scrap Trident, not party policy It isn't.

:28:31. > :28:37.I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at

:28:38. > :28:42.the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.

:28:43. > :28:49.This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the

:28:50. > :28:53.survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are

:28:54. > :28:56.basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our

:28:57. > :28:59.Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at

:29:00. > :29:05.their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's

:29:06. > :29:12.fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people

:29:13. > :29:16.see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a

:29:17. > :29:21.Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.

:29:22. > :29:25.We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations

:29:26. > :29:28.in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many

:29:29. > :29:32.people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do

:29:33. > :29:36.not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about

:29:37. > :29:39.the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the

:29:40. > :29:43.future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I

:29:44. > :29:53.don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in

:29:54. > :29:55.terms of who runs the next government. That one of your

:29:56. > :29:58.candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the

:29:59. > :30:02.unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have

:30:03. > :30:08.spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any

:30:09. > :30:11.different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people

:30:12. > :30:15.working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of

:30:16. > :30:18.journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been

:30:19. > :30:23.brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should

:30:24. > :30:28.be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?

:30:29. > :30:31.I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you

:30:32. > :30:36.look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM

:30:37. > :30:40.Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership

:30:41. > :30:45.with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.

:30:46. > :30:50.I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be

:30:51. > :30:57.closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our

:30:58. > :31:01.relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do

:31:02. > :31:04.you need a constitutional conversation where you have to

:31:05. > :31:08.discuss whether English people voting on English matters is

:31:09. > :31:11.unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,

:31:12. > :31:18.but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the

:31:19. > :31:25.Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of

:31:26. > :31:29.the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't

:31:30. > :31:31.want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity

:31:32. > :31:37.where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK

:31:38. > :31:41.Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it

:31:42. > :31:45.is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes

:31:46. > :31:51.out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see

:31:52. > :31:54.it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been

:31:55. > :31:58.around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making

:31:59. > :32:02.a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not

:32:03. > :32:09.just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can

:32:10. > :32:13.vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport

:32:14. > :32:17.is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of

:32:18. > :32:21.competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to

:32:22. > :32:24.them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different

:32:25. > :32:28.MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is

:32:29. > :32:32.happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people

:32:33. > :32:35.politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities

:32:36. > :32:41.and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in

:32:42. > :32:44.Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in

:32:45. > :32:49.bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed

:32:50. > :32:53.before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.

:32:54. > :32:57.That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to

:32:58. > :33:01.devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being

:33:02. > :33:06.decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax

:33:07. > :33:09.powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper

:33:10. > :33:15.being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put

:33:16. > :33:19.forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you

:33:20. > :33:23.haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I

:33:24. > :33:27.can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the

:33:28. > :33:31.principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will

:33:32. > :33:34.have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the

:33:35. > :33:39.Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it

:33:40. > :33:44.enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,

:33:45. > :33:48.which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England

:33:49. > :33:51.get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go --

:33:52. > :33:54.that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing

:33:55. > :33:58.out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has

:33:59. > :34:00.done which is having already deprived communities having money

:34:01. > :34:05.taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We

:34:06. > :34:11.accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?

:34:12. > :34:16.There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to

:34:17. > :34:22.do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:23. > :34:25.not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:26. > :34:32.government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which

:34:33. > :34:35.is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:36. > :34:41.Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:42. > :34:45.have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:46. > :34:48.you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:49. > :34:53.necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this

:34:54. > :34:56.debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I

:34:57. > :35:01.want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The

:35:02. > :35:05.unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:06. > :35:08.the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:09. > :35:12.different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against

:35:13. > :35:15.what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we

:35:16. > :35:19.shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the

:35:20. > :35:24.minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which

:35:25. > :35:28.would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five

:35:29. > :35:36.years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:37. > :35:42.in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I

:35:43. > :35:48.can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we

:35:49. > :35:51.have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if

:35:52. > :35:55.people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income

:35:56. > :35:59.tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in

:36:00. > :36:03.tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm

:36:04. > :36:08.not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:09. > :36:12.workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:13. > :36:17.payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:18. > :36:22.get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:23. > :36:25.proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:26. > :36:34.the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep? I

:36:35. > :36:38.cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:39. > :36:41.you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:42. > :36:44.paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:45. > :36:49.this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %

:36:50. > :36:52.marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60% and they will not keep most of this

:36:53. > :36:57.increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you

:36:58. > :37:03.haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give

:37:04. > :37:06.you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them?

:37:07. > :37:09.Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are

:37:10. > :37:13.confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with

:37:14. > :37:15.the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise

:37:16. > :37:19.employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I

:37:20. > :37:24.said, the economy is recovering, great, but we know, at the moment,

:37:25. > :37:27.it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're

:37:28. > :37:30.determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option. And

:37:31. > :37:36.even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a

:37:37. > :37:38.good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me.

:37:39. > :37:41.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We

:37:42. > :37:43.say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for

:37:44. > :37:48.Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to

:37:49. > :37:51.talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts

:37:52. > :38:04.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:05. > :38:09.Here, we'll be trying to work out what the devolutionary deal

:38:10. > :38:14.With my guests today, Kate Hoey for Labour and Bob Stewart

:38:15. > :38:21.according to some polling, the Labour leader Ed Miliband lags

:38:22. > :38:37.Bob Stewart first, people saying that your leader already is

:38:38. > :38:41.beginning to renege on the process of devolution and the promises made

:38:42. > :38:46.to Scotland. What do you say? I hope not. The point is that we promised

:38:47. > :38:53.that Scotland gets more power, but are they, as a London MP, want power

:38:54. > :38:56.to the English at the same time. We cannot just give more tax-raising

:38:57. > :39:01.power particularly, and spending power, to Scotland without actually

:39:02. > :39:05.considering the English question. This West Lothian question has been

:39:06. > :39:09.going on for too long, and we have to sort it, but we have very little

:39:10. > :39:12.time to do it. The question has been going on for so long, but Ed

:39:13. > :39:17.Miliband doesn't have an answer or does not want to answer it. He's not

:39:18. > :39:20.answering it today, and we assume his position remains the case, that

:39:21. > :39:26.he does not think there should be English votes on English laws. What

:39:27. > :39:29.do you say? I support very much the idea that Scottish MPs should not

:39:30. > :39:35.vote on English-only matters, but we have to try and separate that out

:39:36. > :39:39.from the important issue of getting the Scottish agreement which was

:39:40. > :39:44.decided without any of us being involved through first. The point

:39:45. > :39:48.made by Ed Miliband this morning talks about London. You have

:39:49. > :39:51.transport devolved in London, and London MPs being allowed to talk

:39:52. > :39:55.about transport and vote on that, but you don't have any

:39:56. > :39:59.responsibility. On major issues like the health service and education we

:40:00. > :40:06.do, and not transport, we have a role in the rest of transport

:40:07. > :40:10.outside the London area. I don't think transport has fully devolved

:40:11. > :40:12.to London. We will talk a lot more about this in the course of the next

:40:13. > :40:13.20 minutes. Let's try and find out

:40:14. > :40:26.a bit more about what might happen, Just as the people of Scotland will

:40:27. > :40:30.have more power over their affairs, so it follows that the people of

:40:31. > :40:35.England, Wales and Northern Ireland must have a bigger say over theirs.

:40:36. > :40:39.The Prime Minister's speech on Friday morning was historic,

:40:40. > :40:43.signalling a new constitutional settlement to the UK. But, as

:40:44. > :40:48.politicians and pundits scrambled onto the airwaves, none were able to

:40:49. > :40:52.say exactly what it would all mean. So it seems that more devolution is

:40:53. > :40:55.on the cards, but the debate going on at the moment, unlikely to go one

:40:56. > :41:02.per month still, is exactly what form it will take. -- and the one

:41:03. > :41:06.likely to go on for a month. In his speech he spoke about more powers

:41:07. > :41:09.for the Scottish parliament, name checked the Welsh and Northern

:41:10. > :41:13.Ireland assembly, but did not mention the regional assembly that

:41:14. > :41:17.was left out, the one at City Hall. Does it mean that the mayor and City

:41:18. > :41:22.Hall will miss out in the devolution giveaway? According to senior

:41:23. > :41:26.Conservatives, the focus should be on empowering a new English

:41:27. > :41:29.Parliament. I don't think it would be right to give the powers to

:41:30. > :41:33.London that go to Scotland as a whole. I think they should reside

:41:34. > :41:38.for England as a whole, and that is what my postbag is telling people

:41:39. > :41:43.want justice to England on we fed up with a country not being on the map

:41:44. > :41:47.and a voice. -- and we are fed up. What are the new powers up for

:41:48. > :41:52.grabs? Much is at the discussion, but key areas are setting tax

:41:53. > :41:55.levels, control over the NHS and welfare. The mayor has argued for

:41:56. > :42:01.years that London needs greater control over taxation. That idea is

:42:02. > :42:08.there and is a brilliant idea, and a simple way of encouraging devolution

:42:09. > :42:14.in the motor of the UK economy. At the moment 93p in every pound of tax

:42:15. > :42:18.raised is handed over to the national government. In New York, it

:42:19. > :42:21.is more like 50 cents in the dollar. For London to get closer to those

:42:22. > :42:27.level it could mean that property tax and even income tax were set and

:42:28. > :42:31.retrain -- retained at a citywide level. What might they spend it on

:42:32. > :42:36.question north of the border, the leaders of the three parties

:42:37. > :42:41.promised Scotland would control spending on health. Although it s

:42:42. > :42:44.not clear what the promise to give Scotland power over the NHS would

:42:45. > :42:48.mean in practice, there is already a call from people in London to say

:42:49. > :42:52.that whatever powers Scotland gets, we should get as well. Do we need

:42:53. > :42:56.something less like a national health service and more like a

:42:57. > :43:02.London health service? I'm just going to take your blood pressure.

:43:03. > :43:07.This doctor is a Labour member on the London assembly and also a

:43:08. > :43:10.practising GP. He thinks the current system is too conjugated, to

:43:11. > :43:15.diffuse, and the capital will be better off with somebody in charge

:43:16. > :43:22.of the NHS in London -- to complicated. We have the strategic

:43:23. > :43:25.authority of London which had been disbanded and there is this

:43:26. > :43:29.coordination and fragmentation of services, and across London we would

:43:30. > :43:34.be better if they were well co-ordinated by a central body and

:43:35. > :43:37.for London to determine needs locally. London has roughly twice

:43:38. > :43:41.the population of Scotland and an economy almost three times as large.

:43:42. > :43:44.But whether that persuades people that we would all be better off with

:43:45. > :43:47.a capital going it alone is a different question altogether.

:43:48. > :43:50.In Westminster is Phillip Blond from the think tank ResPublica who's

:43:51. > :43:55.just written a report on more devolution to Manchester.

:43:56. > :44:05.Welcome to you. Just outline the main recommendation, the main thrust

:44:06. > :44:10.of this report. The main point is that if we want the people who rely

:44:11. > :44:13.on public services to get public services that actually transform

:44:14. > :44:18.their lives, which is what the hope and intention of them are, is

:44:19. > :44:24.actually that they don't work delivered from the central state. We

:44:25. > :44:30.have argued that the full amount of public sector spending in greater

:44:31. > :44:35.Manchester, that is 22.5 billion, needs to be devolved down to

:44:36. > :44:44.Manchester so that Manchester can integrate public services and it's

:44:45. > :44:48.only by integrating that you can get the outcomes you want. The reason we

:44:49. > :44:54.have the health service failing and the health service failing -- and

:44:55. > :44:57.education failing is that things are fragmented. Problems are in the

:44:58. > :45:02.round but nothing addresses them in the round. Would it save money, and

:45:03. > :45:03.what would you do that -- do with that? Could you invested back to

:45:04. > :45:12.grow the local economy? All the evidence shows it would save

:45:13. > :45:18.an enormous answer money. Then stand Young did a study where they argued

:45:19. > :45:25.the national returns over five years from these whole place pilots,,

:45:26. > :45:29.everything in one place, could be anywhere between nine billion and 20

:45:30. > :45:35.billion. Eric Pickles, the current secretary of state for communities

:45:36. > :45:42.said he thought it was somewhere in between, say about 15 billion. That

:45:43. > :45:46.is massive. You would invest that back, potentially. Why Manchester? I

:45:47. > :45:55.note in the report you said that Manchester has got a plan which has

:45:56. > :45:57.gone further than any other city. That is a comment on Manchester, but

:45:58. > :46:02.That is a comment on Manchester but also London? I don't think London is

:46:03. > :46:06.particularly effective in terms of public services. We have the

:46:07. > :46:09.boroughs, the Greater London authority and the Mayor. The Mayor

:46:10. > :46:12.and the Greater London authority don't really have powers to

:46:13. > :46:18.integrate public services across London, which is why so many are not

:46:19. > :46:22.what they should be. Even without an elected Mayor in Manchester, are you

:46:23. > :46:28.saying they have found and validate system, a senator, really, of the

:46:29. > :46:31.local council leaders in the areas around Manchester, they are proving

:46:32. > :46:33.they have an effective form of government that has grown

:46:34. > :46:42.organically, which could put them ahead of the queue for genuine

:46:43. > :46:45.devolution? Nobody will say it publicly, but privately, I think

:46:46. > :46:49.most people accept that. Most people accept that Manchester's capacity is

:46:50. > :46:54.more developed than anywhere else. In our report, myself and one of the

:46:55. > :46:59.authors of the report, argued that Manchester needs to have a directly

:47:00. > :47:05.elected Mayor and an assembly. The trouble with the London model is

:47:06. > :47:12.that the boroughs and assembly are not coterminous, they are different

:47:13. > :47:16.layers of bureaucracy, and the Mayor doesn't have power over the

:47:17. > :47:19.boroughs. We know that discussions are going on with the Treasury and

:47:20. > :47:26.the people of Manchester. You will know that comic that is why you will

:47:27. > :47:29.have written a report. Is this going to happen, be announced in the

:47:30. > :47:33.Autumn Statement or before the next election? I would be very surprised

:47:34. > :47:40.if the broad thrust of our report wasn't in some way incorporated in

:47:41. > :47:44.Government policy. Will that be seen as Manchester almost jumping ahead?

:47:45. > :47:54.It is going around London, isn't it? Well, I don't think it is

:47:55. > :47:58.either-or. What we argue is the city 's best able to handle the type of

:47:59. > :48:02.devolution that we really need in this country should be the ones that

:48:03. > :48:07.get it. I think London is well positioned. But I think its powers

:48:08. > :48:12.need to be refashioned. Manchester is well positioned. All of the other

:48:13. > :48:15.city regions want it. The point about the West Lothian question that

:48:16. > :48:21.you were discussing with your studio guest 's earlier is that it is a red

:48:22. > :48:27.herring. What people want is real power. If you look at the Scottish

:48:28. > :48:30.referendum, they are in areas of economic deprivation. There are

:48:31. > :48:35.people that feel just as distant from Westminster. All that the

:48:36. > :48:38.present proposals would do is give Westminster more power. That is not

:48:39. > :48:46.what people want. They want the ability to control their own cities

:48:47. > :48:50.to improve the lives of them and their children. Bob Stewart, what do

:48:51. > :48:53.you think about this? Do you agree that there are inadequacies to the

:48:54. > :48:56.London devolution settlement and would you like it to be able to, not

:48:57. > :49:01.would you like it to be able to not just spend over a wider area, but as

:49:02. > :49:07.we know the London Finance commission has suggested, raise a

:49:08. > :49:10.lot more taxes? To be honest, I know there are problems between the

:49:11. > :49:15.London assembly and the boroughs. I am in a big London Borough myself,

:49:16. > :49:17.Bromley. I don't know the answer, neither does anybody. But I think we

:49:18. > :49:21.should investigate it very fast. I should investigate it very fast I

:49:22. > :49:25.don't see why we shouldn't try and refine it. If Manchester looks like

:49:26. > :49:29.a good model and has a way ahead, let us look at it and apply it, if

:49:30. > :49:35.necessary, to London. It might seem a simple is to question, it is, but

:49:36. > :49:39.time is limited. You will get a simplistic answer! Do you think

:49:40. > :49:42.there is something in this, that Manchester, it's important for the

:49:43. > :49:49.Conservatives to make more headway, show that it feels more genuinely

:49:50. > :49:53.about northern cities, that this will be somewhere that goes ahead of

:49:54. > :49:57.London in a devolution race? I don't think we care if it does, but what

:49:58. > :50:01.we want is the best model to provide the best services. If this is a

:50:02. > :50:07.model that will show us the way ahead, why not take Manchester as a

:50:08. > :50:11.model and then apply it elsewhere? Not just in London, but in other

:50:12. > :50:18.cities as well. That is his point, if this works, there may be a lag of

:50:19. > :50:23.time, but soon those powers would come to London as well. I mean, it

:50:24. > :50:26.is not a problem that there are debates going on in parallel. Are

:50:27. > :50:33.you happy with the other recommendations? I do think that the

:50:34. > :50:37.devolved nature will come through cities and areas around the cities.

:50:38. > :50:42.That is what has to happen. What I don't want to see is another layer,

:50:43. > :50:47.another group of politicians. That is the real worry. We do need to

:50:48. > :50:51.look at the way the London assembly works. Do we really get value for

:50:52. > :50:55.money for the assembly and how it works in terms of the powers they

:50:56. > :51:00.have got over the scrutiny of the Mayor and local councils. Would you

:51:01. > :51:04.get rid of the body and replace it with leaders for London boroughs? I

:51:05. > :51:09.would like to separate out the Scottish thing and also separate out

:51:10. > :51:13.the English, in Westminster, Scottish MPs not voting. SNP members

:51:14. > :51:16.don't at the moment, they tend not to vote in English only matters.

:51:17. > :51:16.don't at the moment, they tend not to vote in English only matters We

:51:17. > :51:19.to vote in English only matters. We do need to look much more carefully

:51:20. > :51:23.and that is where we do think there needs to be more time than we have

:51:24. > :51:26.got at the moment to see how London would work properly. It is a huge

:51:27. > :51:31.city and it's crucial that it is able to take the levers that bring

:51:32. > :51:35.the investment. If we are going to believe David Cameron, that he says

:51:36. > :51:43.this is an opportunity... Believe it, you mean set. But then

:51:44. > :51:46.presumably it is a no brain that London should be able to raise more

:51:47. > :51:52.taxation, have control of stamp duty, take the cap of council tax?

:51:53. > :51:57.It is a no-brainer that I want to see the English have more of a say.

:51:58. > :52:02.In London, yes. But, quite frankly, if we can have better improvement

:52:03. > :52:05.between the assembly and the boroughs, that is great, and we get

:52:06. > :52:10.more efficiency across the whole of London. Why not? I think bringing

:52:11. > :52:13.the leaders of the London boroughs together would be a much better way

:52:14. > :52:20.than having an assembly that is collected. Fiddle around with the

:52:21. > :52:25.existing structures, you are not necessarily thinking there is a need

:52:26. > :52:27.for an ability for the Mayor to take over the funding of health, for

:52:28. > :52:33.instance, or have some influence there? I would be reluctant for

:52:34. > :52:36.health to be something that was devolved to London. You see the

:52:37. > :52:40.people that move from hospitals outside London into specialist

:52:41. > :52:42.hospitals in London. That is a complicated issue and I don't think

:52:43. > :52:45.that can happen. There are other things that can happen. I think we

:52:46. > :52:50.need to look at the role of the assembly and if we need an assembly.

:52:51. > :52:54.Are we not moving in the direction in terms of devolution, or merging

:52:55. > :52:57.of health, on this big question of adult social care, that we need to

:52:58. > :53:00.take more money from the Health Service and perhaps give it to local

:53:01. > :53:06.authorities to ensure they coordinate. It's happening already.

:53:07. > :53:11.We are starting to go that way already. They are doing their best.

:53:12. > :53:15.London is trying hard, to try to get the very best deal for the money

:53:16. > :53:18.they have got. We are trying. London is trying, the assembly is trying

:53:19. > :53:24.and I certainly know that Romney is as well. The one thing you probably

:53:25. > :53:28.agree on is that it doesn't look like something that will happen

:53:29. > :53:32.quickly? Not the London details I don't think it can. So we have to go

:53:33. > :53:41.ahead with the Scottish devolution issues first? For me, they go in

:53:42. > :53:49.tandem. Won't that be seen as reneging? It won't be, we need to

:53:50. > :53:54.make English laws be voted on by English MPs. The Scottish thing is

:53:55. > :53:56.separate. They have been promised these things, which probably, on

:53:57. > :54:02.reflection, they should not have been. The Sunday Telegraph reports

:54:03. > :54:07.today on some polling that suggests that Ed Miliband has something of an

:54:08. > :54:17.image problem in Scotland. There is polling ins the Reid -- polling in

:54:18. > :54:22.London that suggests he likes behind the party in London.

:54:23. > :54:26.Labour did well in the elections, winning a majority of London

:54:27. > :54:30.boroughs, reinforcing a common perception that London is a Labour

:54:31. > :54:36.city. But the elections did not involve voting Ed Miliband for Prime

:54:37. > :54:42.Minister. Peepholes worse than the Labour Party do, David Cameron polls

:54:43. > :54:47.better than the Conservative Party do. It's one of the paradoxes that

:54:48. > :54:50.will help decide the election. Will people who want a Labour Government

:54:51. > :54:54.think they want to back Labour even though Ed Miliband is not my first

:54:55. > :54:59.choice for Prime Minister? Beyond question is that some voters have

:55:00. > :55:02.about his Prime Minister qualities, some Labour policies poll worse in

:55:03. > :55:08.the capital than the rest of the UK. When they talk about a mansion tax

:55:09. > :55:13.affecting houses worth ?1 million, to a voter in the north-east that

:55:14. > :55:19.sounds like an absurd price. It must be a huge mansion. A voter living in

:55:20. > :55:24.central London, that could be a modest family home that might top ?1

:55:25. > :55:29.million in a few years. I declare Boris Johnson to be elected as the

:55:30. > :55:33.Mayor of London. Notwithstanding Labour's recent successes in London,

:55:34. > :55:38.it has failed to inject Boris Johnson from City Hall. Ed Miliband

:55:39. > :55:41.faces a big challenge, catching up with his party, delivering London

:55:42. > :55:46.for Labour and winning the next general election.

:55:47. > :55:51.What do you think the problem is? I think we should look back and think

:55:52. > :55:55.of 1979, when Margaret Thatcher first got elected. She was a very

:55:56. > :56:00.unpopular in terms of the polling, as the leader of the Conservative

:56:01. > :56:03.Party. You know, you cannot assume that just because the leader of the

:56:04. > :56:07.party is not polling well for whatever reason at the moment, that

:56:08. > :56:10.it will make a difference to how people actually vote on the day If

:56:11. > :56:14.people actually vote on the day. If the policies are there and there is

:56:15. > :56:19.a feeling that the party would carry out its manifesto commitments, that

:56:20. > :56:22.is why the Conference is so important this week, we get a real

:56:23. > :56:26.feeling of what Labour is going to do. The minimum wage was a start,

:56:27. > :56:33.although in London it was actually not going to be very high. Bob

:56:34. > :56:36.Stewart, what do you think? I think it is rather sad, some of the

:56:37. > :56:40.pictures that show politicians like that, some of these pictures of Ed

:56:41. > :56:44.Miliband are deliberately chosen to make him look bad. Is this a certain

:56:45. > :56:53.section of the media? The Conservatives, in concert with your

:56:54. > :56:56.party? No, no. I think the media quite like taking a bad photograph

:56:57. > :57:04.of any politician. It goes better that way. Would you say, would you

:57:05. > :57:09.believe, that the way to victory for you next year is by focusing on

:57:10. > :57:14.attributes of Ed Miliband's leadership? That is what the people

:57:15. > :57:18.around Cameron are planning? I hope not, I hope we are focusing on

:57:19. > :57:22.getting the policies right so we can appeal and get policies that we can

:57:23. > :57:28.definitely guarantee this time to implement. You hope not, what do you

:57:29. > :57:33.think? More than hope, I think it would be crazy to start that sort of

:57:34. > :57:39.game. You think it would be a backlash? Yes. I don't use that

:57:40. > :57:44.word, but the fact of the matter is, you would start going down that kind

:57:45. > :57:49.of approach and it would backfire. Let us get the policies, let's argue

:57:50. > :57:55.on the policies. Kate Hoey, finally, you would argue there is still a job

:57:56. > :57:59.to be done? He is a metropolitan individual, state school educated.

:58:00. > :58:02.There is a problem with all political leaders, quite honestly,

:58:03. > :58:05.that the public don't see them as understanding them, speaking their

:58:06. > :58:19.language, saying what they really mean. There is always this

:58:20. > :58:22.flanneling around, and he needs to do what he wants to do rather than

:58:23. > :58:24.feeling he's part of this machine and froth. The rest of the news in

:58:25. > :58:38.60 seconds. Punters will have to cough up ?10 to

:58:39. > :58:42.go on the New Year's Eve fireworks. The first time they have been forced

:58:43. > :58:45.to pay. The Mayor's office says it is necessary for safety reasons.

:58:46. > :58:47.to pay. The Mayor's office says it is necessary for safety reasons The

:58:48. > :58:52.time has come to recognise that this event is now colossal and we need to

:58:53. > :58:56.ticket it. Since Tuesday, people can use bank cards to get through ticket

:58:57. > :59:02.barriers on the tube, DLR and London Overground train networks instead of

:59:03. > :59:06.Oyster cards. And London has been named the worst place for childhood

:59:07. > :59:11.obesity in a global survey of ten similar cities. Worse than New

:59:12. > :59:15.York, Sydney or Paris. More than a third of kids are overweight by the

:59:16. > :59:18.time they leave primary school. Transport for London plans could see

:59:19. > :59:23.some tube stations in London Blues over half of their staff, at least

:59:24. > :59:26.according to Labour on the London assembly. TfL say nevertheless they

:59:27. > :59:40.will be more staff visible to passengers and available to help.

:59:41. > :59:47.constituency wander down to the river on New Year's Eve. Ten years

:59:48. > :59:52.-- ten quid now. The problem is whether they can get in or out of

:59:53. > :59:59.their houses, and if they go out, and the police to let them back in.

:00:00. > :00:03.-- don't let them back in. I think it will be very unpopular. At a time

:00:04. > :00:07.of the economic situation we have, I don't think we need these huge

:00:08. > :00:12.firework displays. But you understand the charge? I know from

:00:13. > :00:16.my own dealings with what have happened, the police have been

:00:17. > :00:21.concerned that it is far too big. This is a way of having a ticketing

:00:22. > :00:24.arrangements. I don't like it. I think the poorest people won't be

:00:25. > :00:28.able to go, the richest people will. That doesn't appeal to me No

:00:29. > :00:32.reductions were children or anything. But the mayor has said

:00:33. > :00:36.that the police are warning there have been too many people going in

:00:37. > :00:42.the last couple of years. That is a problem, but I still don't like the

:00:43. > :00:45.idea. It is hopeless but children anyway because you are so massed

:00:46. > :00:53.together, you could still watch from further along the river and see a

:00:54. > :00:59.lot of it. So, Kate Hoey is backing the Conservative mayor's policy No

:01:00. > :01:07.more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.

:01:08. > :01:09.Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined

:01:10. > :01:13.by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.

:01:14. > :01:18.I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

:01:19. > :01:20.In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally

:01:21. > :01:23.the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.

:01:24. > :01:26.He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve

:01:27. > :01:37.Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish

:01:38. > :01:40.votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,

:01:41. > :01:46.why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament

:01:47. > :01:47.in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I

:01:48. > :01:51.certainly don't agree with that I certainly don't agree with that. I

:01:52. > :01:55.campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it

:01:56. > :01:58.in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the

:01:59. > :02:05.same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do

:02:06. > :02:11.that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know,

:02:12. > :02:16.in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32

:02:17. > :02:20.years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now,

:02:21. > :02:25.but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all

:02:26. > :02:32.around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35

:02:33. > :02:35.years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory

:02:36. > :02:41.dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's

:02:42. > :02:45.not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal

:02:46. > :02:48.structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal

:02:49. > :02:52.structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer

:02:53. > :02:56.representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the

:02:57. > :03:02.Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done

:03:03. > :03:07.in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and

:03:08. > :03:12.it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to

:03:13. > :03:15.get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English

:03:16. > :03:20.parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low

:03:21. > :03:26.politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in

:03:27. > :03:30.the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do

:03:31. > :03:33.not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he

:03:34. > :03:37.will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England,

:03:38. > :03:41.vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level

:03:42. > :03:46.of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have

:03:47. > :03:49.been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see

:03:50. > :03:53.what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula.

:03:54. > :03:57.But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to

:03:58. > :04:02.discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We

:04:03. > :04:06.had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of

:04:07. > :04:11.English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about

:04:12. > :04:16.trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly

:04:17. > :04:20.and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime

:04:21. > :04:24.commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and

:04:25. > :04:27.it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to

:04:28. > :04:32.British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the

:04:33. > :04:35.turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is

:04:36. > :04:38.phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real

:04:39. > :04:42.influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know

:04:43. > :04:45.you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it

:04:46. > :04:50.doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about

:04:51. > :04:53.equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The

:04:54. > :04:58.English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too

:04:59. > :05:02.long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving

:05:03. > :05:05.power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed

:05:06. > :05:09.Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same

:05:10. > :05:13.idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we

:05:14. > :05:17.really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver

:05:18. > :05:19.if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people?

:05:20. > :05:19.if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people I

:05:20. > :05:25.democratic link with the people? I live in whole, and it stops on the

:05:26. > :05:30.boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from

:05:31. > :05:33.Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,

:05:34. > :05:37.and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city

:05:38. > :05:41.regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal

:05:42. > :05:44.structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with

:05:45. > :05:49.Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I

:05:50. > :05:53.believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options

:05:54. > :05:57.in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do

:05:58. > :06:00.in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will

:06:01. > :06:04.happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.

:06:05. > :06:08.You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,

:06:09. > :06:12.not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a

:06:13. > :06:18.separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English

:06:19. > :06:22.if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of

:06:23. > :06:25.Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put

:06:26. > :06:30.the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking

:06:31. > :06:33.about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do

:06:34. > :06:38.with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.

:06:39. > :06:42.Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.

:06:43. > :06:46.Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether

:06:47. > :06:50.it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the

:06:51. > :06:57.Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign

:06:58. > :07:01.lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to

:07:02. > :07:04.something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost

:07:05. > :07:09.Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to

:07:10. > :07:13.what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its

:07:14. > :07:17.different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about

:07:18. > :07:26.decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been

:07:27. > :07:29.thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is

:07:30. > :07:34.not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember

:07:35. > :07:39.covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping

:07:40. > :07:42.speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it

:07:43. > :07:45.was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not

:07:46. > :07:50.independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,

:07:51. > :07:54.an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that

:07:55. > :08:03.Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.

:08:04. > :08:10.In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on

:08:11. > :08:15.with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for

:08:16. > :08:18.30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I

:08:19. > :08:21.support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and

:08:22. > :08:26.make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources

:08:27. > :08:32.and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant

:08:33. > :08:36.today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in

:08:37. > :08:44.Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I

:08:45. > :08:50.can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What

:08:51. > :08:57.do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering

:08:58. > :09:01.about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,

:09:02. > :09:06.and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he

:09:07. > :09:08.started off on the minimum wage. now. What he has got to do where he

:09:09. > :09:09.started off on the minimum wage You started off on the minimum wage. You

:09:10. > :09:14.are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That

:09:15. > :09:18.is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and

:09:19. > :09:21.we have to say it will be saved If you can save all of these bankers

:09:22. > :09:25.with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,

:09:26. > :09:30.say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I

:09:31. > :09:33.have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a

:09:34. > :09:39.deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy

:09:40. > :09:43.it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for

:09:44. > :09:46.up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy

:09:47. > :09:51.the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not

:09:52. > :09:54.listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in

:09:55. > :09:59.three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling

:10:00. > :10:03.them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want

:10:04. > :10:08.commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing,

:10:09. > :10:13.health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour.

:10:14. > :10:17.That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered

:10:18. > :10:20.about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know

:10:21. > :10:25.it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.

:10:26. > :10:30.I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe

:10:31. > :10:34.it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the

:10:35. > :10:40.polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We

:10:41. > :10:45.haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to

:10:46. > :10:50.repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is

:10:51. > :10:54.quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying

:10:55. > :11:00.to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given

:11:01. > :11:02.2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the

:11:03. > :11:10.next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the

:11:11. > :11:14.proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when

:11:15. > :11:19.we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and

:11:20. > :11:25.that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys

:11:26. > :11:30.run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under

:11:31. > :11:36.Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is

:11:37. > :11:40.still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,

:11:41. > :11:43.but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible

:11:44. > :11:47.discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about

:11:48. > :11:51.finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We

:11:52. > :11:55.need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell

:11:56. > :11:58.me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting

:11:59. > :12:02.screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown

:12:03. > :12:08.coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did

:12:09. > :12:10.a poll of the Labour candidates you were watching on the big screen,

:12:11. > :12:15.were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite

:12:16. > :12:25.to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That

:12:26. > :12:28.is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not

:12:29. > :12:44.strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at

:12:45. > :12:49.a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,

:12:50. > :12:55.I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you

:12:56. > :13:00.back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for

:13:01. > :13:02.today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.

:13:03. > :13:06.my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily

:13:07. > :13:11.11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by

:13:12. > :13:16.We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for

:13:17. > :13:23.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.