:00:35. > :00:43.Is Chancellor Osborne right to stick to his guns over tax credit cuts?
:00:44. > :00:45.The Treasury insists there will be no U-turn.
:00:46. > :00:49.But rumblings of discontent have spread from the Tory back-benches to
:00:50. > :00:52.the cabinet, with growing calls for the Chancellor to soften
:00:53. > :00:58.Tomorrow, the Lords have their say on the issue.
:00:59. > :01:00.They might well reject the policy, which could provoke
:01:01. > :01:05.We'll be talking to former Chancellor Ken Clarke and
:01:06. > :01:12.Could moderate Labour MPs face the chop
:01:13. > :01:16.The left is said to be plotting to swing Labour
:01:17. > :01:20.They could be helped by changes to constituency boundaries.
:01:21. > :01:25.Labour left-winger and former London Mayor, Ken Livingstone joins us
:01:26. > :01:27.In London, part of the government's anti-terrorism strategy is
:01:28. > :01:31.under fire from a Labour council for damaging community cohesion
:01:32. > :01:43.And with me - as always - the best dressed, the most
:01:44. > :01:47.intelligent and the most fun political panel in the business
:01:48. > :01:51.At least, that's what it says on autocue.
:01:52. > :01:56.Regard their talk-talk as about reliable as the TalkTalk website.
:01:57. > :01:59.I speak of course, of Nick Watt Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh,
:02:00. > :02:02.who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:02:03. > :02:05.Now, first this morning, let's talk about the Labour Shadow Chancellor,
:02:06. > :02:08.John McDonnell, who appeared on the Andrew Marr Show a little earlier.
:02:09. > :02:10.He revealed he's written to the Chancellor urging him
:02:11. > :02:14.to reverse the Government's proposed changes to tax credits.
:02:15. > :02:20.I know what a U-turn looks like and how it can damage you,
:02:21. > :02:26.I have said to him, look, if you can change your mind on this, we will
:02:27. > :02:30.not make any political capital out of this, so if the Lords do throw
:02:31. > :02:34.this out tomorrow and put it back to the government, I have said to him,
:02:35. > :02:37.if you change your mind, bring back a policy in which people
:02:38. > :02:39.are protected, not a political stunt, but a real protection,
:02:40. > :02:41.we will not in any way attack you for that,
:02:42. > :02:57.We are going to talk about the substance of the tax credits later
:02:58. > :03:03.in the programme but what do you make of this more reasonable John
:03:04. > :03:06.McDonnell? He was very bruised by the fiscal charter and this is
:03:07. > :03:11.somebody who said he would wade through vomit to oppose these cuts.
:03:12. > :03:15.He is now being reasonable and he said if you give us a U-turn, I will
:03:16. > :03:19.be nice to you, George Osborne. He will not get a U-turn that what he
:03:20. > :03:23.will get from the Chancellor is a change of tack. There was a big
:03:24. > :03:26.expectation that once we have the votes in the House of Lords out of
:03:27. > :03:38.the way tomorrow, George Osborne will indicate in his Autumn
:03:39. > :03:41.Statement, he will soften the impact of the cuts. He will not change the
:03:42. > :03:44.specific Wallasey but he will tinker around the edges. In order to
:03:45. > :03:46.achieve that, the House of Lords cannot vote for this fateful motion.
:03:47. > :03:50.Equally, they cannot vote for Patricia Hollis's motion. They can
:03:51. > :03:55.vote for the bishops' motion and then the Chancellor will indicate he
:03:56. > :04:00.will soften the impact. He will have to do more than just tweaking if he
:04:01. > :04:05.is going to soften the blow in any meaningful way, I would suggest
:04:06. > :04:09.Tweaking is not enough when you look at the losses lower paid families
:04:10. > :04:13.will be hit by. It is interesting how many people who are plainly
:04:14. > :04:18.clueless about the technicalities of this say let him tweak a bit here
:04:19. > :04:20.and there. You understand these things. If you don't understand
:04:21. > :04:26.this, all you need to do is hold onto one thing. He is going to cut
:04:27. > :04:30.4.5 billion from the very lowest paid hard-working people. All you
:04:31. > :04:37.need to know about his tweak is how much will he give back of that? My
:04:38. > :04:41.guess is, it will be very little. Those same people will still be hit
:04:42. > :04:45.absolutely massively. Don't worry about whether they are calling it
:04:46. > :04:49.child-care credits or slightly changing National Insurance which I
:04:50. > :04:54.don't think they will do because it is very expensive, just look at the
:04:55. > :04:58.money. Follow the money. We will look more about the actual
:04:59. > :05:03.substances Polly was talking about. What do you make of the demeanour of
:05:04. > :05:07.John McDonnell? Do you buy it? The most interesting thing I have seen
:05:08. > :05:12.from any Labour politician since Jeremy Corbyn was elected in
:05:13. > :05:18.September, was that performance It was delivered more in sorrow than
:05:19. > :05:24.anger. If you were deciding whether to support tax credits, had John
:05:25. > :05:28.McDonnell waded in and shouted at the government on a moral angle you
:05:29. > :05:31.would have done the natural thing and regressed towards supporting
:05:32. > :05:35.your own government. Instead, he made it as easy as possible by
:05:36. > :05:41.behaving as magnanimously as possible to corral Conservatives and
:05:42. > :05:45.people on the Labour side against the tax credit policies. I wonder if
:05:46. > :05:52.that is something to look out for, and element of vertical deftness and
:05:53. > :05:59.subtle touch which we might not have expected from an I do logically
:06:00. > :06:07.committed Chancellor. I thought it was embarrassing. If you make a bad
:06:08. > :06:11.mistake you're better off apologising than doing a U-turn
:06:12. > :06:16.Refusing to do a U-turn gets you into more trouble in the long term.
:06:17. > :06:18.Perhaps the Chancellor is about to find that out! We will return to
:06:19. > :06:20.Labour. Jeremy Corbyn yesterday with
:06:21. > :06:22.Momentum, the new Labour grassroots organisation set up in the wake
:06:23. > :06:24.of his victory It's claimed one aim,
:06:25. > :06:27.already being plotted, is to de-select moderate Labour MPs
:06:28. > :06:30.and Momentum could be helped by major changes to constituency
:06:31. > :06:32.boundaries. He is a member
:06:33. > :06:41.of the strange organisation that That is almost exactly what some
:06:42. > :06:46.Labour MPs are worried about. New lines on electoral maps
:06:47. > :06:50.and plotting. Fears of a purge and a surge to
:06:51. > :06:54.the left were hardly soothed by comments from Jeremy Corbyn's
:06:55. > :06:57.newly appointed director of strategy and communications just a few weeks
:06:58. > :07:05.before he took on the job. The Tories are planning to bring
:07:06. > :07:07.in new boundaries for constituencies around the country
:07:08. > :07:10.and that will mean there will have to be re-selections, new selection
:07:11. > :07:12.procedures to pick Labour candidates for those constituencies, because at
:07:13. > :07:15.the moment, the Parliamentary Labour Party is
:07:16. > :07:18.not only far to the right but it is to the right of public
:07:19. > :07:23.opinion on lots of key issues, although they talk about
:07:24. > :07:26.electability all the time, so there needs to be some
:07:27. > :07:30.recalibration of that. We're
:07:31. > :07:35.at a point where there are several Labour MPs in the seats around the
:07:36. > :07:38.Common whose boundaries are going to Among them,
:07:39. > :07:41.the decidedly non-Corbynite Chuka Umunna, who, according to one
:07:42. > :07:44.expert on these things, could find himself forced to seek
:07:45. > :07:50.reselection at the next election. In areas such as a lot
:07:51. > :07:53.of metropolitan England and London, where the boundary changes are most
:07:54. > :07:58.radical, there is more scope The new boundaries could look very
:07:59. > :08:02.different again by the time they are published in
:08:03. > :08:05.2018 because of the reduction in the Analysis for this programme,
:08:06. > :08:11.based on the latest boundary proposals of 2012, suggest that MPs
:08:12. > :08:16.like Liam Byrne, Chris Leslie and Tristram Hunt could face significant
:08:17. > :08:22.changes to their current seats. Just looking at England, of
:08:23. > :08:25.the 206 seats Labour currently hold, 54 constituencies are likely
:08:26. > :08:33.to change by more than 40%. That is more than double the
:08:34. > :08:37.proportion of Tory seats affected. There are some in the Parliamentary
:08:38. > :08:40.Labour Party who are worried. The Sunday Politics has spoken to
:08:41. > :08:42.a number of MPs, including a former minister, who say this
:08:43. > :08:45.could lead to mandatory reselection by the back door, a means of getting
:08:46. > :08:51.rid of the faces that do not fit. I think my colleagues are
:08:52. > :08:54.right to worry about this. We have had an influx
:08:55. > :08:57.of people joining the party, some of them probably were expelled
:08:58. > :09:02.in years gone by, in actual fact. Many of them will certainly be
:09:03. > :09:06.on the far left of the party. They will be Jeremy Corbyn
:09:07. > :09:09.supporters and they will be making a decision, because of boundary
:09:10. > :09:11.stages, they will be making a decision on who should be their
:09:12. > :09:15.Labour parliamentary candidate. It is fair to say they might not
:09:16. > :09:18.pick more moderate MPs Frank Field arrived back in
:09:19. > :09:24.Merseyside confident he can survive Another veteran Labour MP agrees
:09:25. > :09:29.that boundary changes are bringing back old memories when members of
:09:30. > :09:34.his own party tried to replace him He says MPs this time
:09:35. > :09:40.should be prepared. There will be a large group, I would
:09:41. > :09:43.hope, in Parliament, of MPs, who will, if colleagues are unfairly
:09:44. > :09:48.treated, encourage their colleagues to stand in by-elections, to stand
:09:49. > :09:53.as independent Labour candidates, and a large number of us,
:09:54. > :10:00.including myself, would go It is a capital offence, to campaign
:10:01. > :10:06.for somebody standing against an official Labour candidate, but if
:10:07. > :10:09.enough of us go, they cannot pick The current Labour rules, introduced
:10:10. > :10:14.in 2013, state that an MP with a substantial territorial interest
:10:15. > :10:17.in a new constituency may seek A substantial territorial interest
:10:18. > :10:24.is defined as 40% or more These rules will be updated after
:10:25. > :10:31.the next boundary review but I've been told by members of Labour's
:10:32. > :10:34.National Executive Committee that there are categorically no moves to
:10:35. > :10:38.change them. Local party members will decide
:10:39. > :10:42.whether they want to stick within existing Labour MPs,
:10:43. > :10:46.and I think they pretty much will do in nearly every case, probably every
:10:47. > :10:49.single case, I would have thought. So essentially people
:10:50. > :10:52.are just overreacting? People are nervous because we're
:10:53. > :10:55.going to have MP up against MP It will be the same in the Tory
:10:56. > :10:59.party as well. The Tory party are going to have MP
:11:00. > :11:03.up against MP, so you can understand why people are going to feel nervous
:11:04. > :11:06.and unsure about that, but people shouldn't feel nervous about
:11:07. > :11:10.whether the rules are changing. For some MPs, the more pressing
:11:11. > :11:13.concern is what they perceive as Tory gerrymandering, which is what
:11:14. > :11:17.this rally yesterday was about. The first nationally coordinated set
:11:18. > :11:25.of events organised by Momentum Following the death of
:11:26. > :11:28.Michael Meacher MP, there will be a by-election within
:11:29. > :11:31.the next few months. It will be a gauge of Mr Corbyn s
:11:32. > :11:35.leadership, and of whether these new members
:11:36. > :11:38.really can and will influence what And with me now former Mayor of
:11:39. > :11:53.London, Labour's Ken Livingstone. Our moderate Labour MPs under threat
:11:54. > :11:59.in the new Corbyn Labour Party? I don't think so. Jeremy is very
:12:00. > :12:02.inclusive. He has said they will not bring back automatic reselection. I
:12:03. > :12:08.was challenged by the right-winger in my constituency and I think they
:12:09. > :12:11.had a right to do that. That there may be mandatory reselection with
:12:12. > :12:16.these boundary changes because they will require a large number of
:12:17. > :12:20.Labour MPs to seek re-election or even new seats. Should that be seen
:12:21. > :12:25.as an opportunity to shape Labour more in Mr Corbyn's image? I think
:12:26. > :12:29.we should see a party or Mr Corbyn's image, because under Blair
:12:30. > :12:33.and Brown, parties were not allowed to select whoever they had wanted
:12:34. > :12:40.which had been the case for the 90 years before. You had to choose from
:12:41. > :12:42.an approved list. Therefore, the Parliamentary Labour Party was
:12:43. > :12:44.significantly to the right of the rank-and-file and leadership. I
:12:45. > :12:48.think most MPs will engage with new members. They will moderate their
:12:49. > :12:52.criticisms of Jeremy Corbyn if he is seen to be doing quite well. You
:12:53. > :12:56.just had Simon Danczuk on there and he said it is all very threatening.
:12:57. > :13:02.He has already announced he might stand against Jeremy Corbyn next
:13:03. > :13:06.year. He has a right to do so, that is policy. Would you encourage
:13:07. > :13:10.constituencies to choose more left-wing candidates? If your local
:13:11. > :13:17.MP is undermined in Jeremy Corbyn, opposing the policies, the
:13:18. > :13:21.anti-austerities measures, people should have a right to say, I would
:13:22. > :13:28.like to have an MP who reflects my views. It should not be a job for
:13:29. > :13:32.life. So you agree with Momentum, this new campaign? I have joined it.
:13:33. > :13:39.That MPs who regularly do finally Corbyn whip should face deselection
:13:40. > :13:43.procedures? Yes, if you have 10 0 new members joined your local party
:13:44. > :13:47.because they supported Jeremy Corbyn's policies, you have got an
:13:48. > :13:51.MP completely undermining, that is right that they should have the
:13:52. > :13:54.right to challenge that. It does not necessarily mean they should win. I
:13:55. > :13:59.was challenged because people thought I was too left wing. They
:14:00. > :14:04.had the right to do that. According to a memo leaked to the Evening
:14:05. > :14:10.Standard, MPs like Harriet Harman, Chuka Umunna and Stella Creasy said
:14:11. > :14:15.they could be ousted after a surge in new activists joined their
:14:16. > :14:19.party. Should they be worried? If you are prepared to reach out and
:14:20. > :14:22.accept that this huge doubling of our mothership has changed the
:14:23. > :14:26.nature of the Labour Party then that is fine. I remember during the Blair
:14:27. > :14:30.years, over half of Labour Party members left because you could not
:14:31. > :14:35.select the. You have no real say. What we have got now is a genuinely
:14:36. > :14:39.democratic party open to debate Jeremy has not been an autocrat He
:14:40. > :14:51.is not expelling people or kicking them out of the shadow cabinet
:14:52. > :14:54.because they disagree with him. People are shocked by this. But this
:14:55. > :14:57.is how politics should be. Sitting members who are on the centre or the
:14:58. > :14:59.right of the Labour Party, they should move left to reflect the
:15:00. > :15:02.views of the new activists who are joining or face deselection? And why
:15:03. > :15:05.not? That is inevitable. If you have had a doubling of the Labour Party
:15:06. > :15:13.membership because people see there is a real chance of change, and if
:15:14. > :15:16.Jeremy Corbyn looks like he's doing a good job, you would not expect,
:15:17. > :15:18.everyday I see my MP undermining the Labour leadership, opposing the
:15:19. > :15:23.policies that we came into politics for, people must have the right to
:15:24. > :15:29.have an influence over these things. You began by saying Mr Corbyn has
:15:30. > :15:34.been very inclusive and it a broad church still... He is much nicer
:15:35. > :15:39.than I am! Well people will judge that. If that is the case, was wise
:15:40. > :15:44.of Mr Corbyn to appoint Seamus Milne, an admirer of Stalinist
:15:45. > :15:45.Russia and a long-standing critic of the West as his new director of
:15:46. > :15:56.communication? Kid will do a very good job. I do
:15:57. > :16:04.not think you can describe him as a Stalinist. I chose my words, an
:16:05. > :16:10.admirer of Josef Stalin's Russia. There are plenty of courts to show
:16:11. > :16:13.that. For all its brutalities and failures, it delivered job security,
:16:14. > :16:20.huge advances in social and gender equality. That happens to be true.
:16:21. > :16:25.Is it wise to appoint an? Yes. There is no mention in that article of the
:16:26. > :16:30.25 million people who died under Stalin. He does not need to, because
:16:31. > :16:35.we all now about that. Most people do not know that in the 1930s, the
:16:36. > :16:41.communist economy grew more than any other in history. It was wise to
:16:42. > :16:46.appointing? Absolutely. Was it wise of Mr Corbyn to appoint Andrew
:16:47. > :16:50.Fisher rises policy adviser, who has called leading Labour moderates scum
:16:51. > :16:57.bags? He may have to moderate that now that he is in the job using
:16:58. > :17:00.People have strong views. A Labour web once threatened to push me up
:17:01. > :17:07.against a wall and smacked me in the face if I voted against the party
:17:08. > :17:10.line. People get very tense. In what sense are the appointments that I
:17:11. > :17:16.have spoken about evidence that Mr Corbyn wants to reach out to the
:17:17. > :17:22.centre and other parts of the party? He has done that in terms of
:17:23. > :17:27.the Shadow Cabinet keep it together. According to Mr Milne, that is just
:17:28. > :17:31.a stabilisation Cabinet. Changes are coming. There are was changes. If
:17:32. > :17:35.people like Yvette Cooper change their mind and want to come back in,
:17:36. > :17:40.I am sure that Jeremy will bring them back. When I was leader of the
:17:41. > :17:48.GLC, all the leading right-wingers, we tried to get them involved, to do
:17:49. > :17:50.good work. You never have so much talent in a political party you can
:17:51. > :17:56.afford to avoid talented people because you have a disagreement with
:17:57. > :18:03.them. Andrew Fisher will be a key player in the Corbyn Cabinet. Hilary
:18:04. > :18:06.Benn, who fought a Croydon constituency, Andrew Fisher tweeted
:18:07. > :18:18.that people should not fought for her, they should vote for the torque
:18:19. > :18:22.steer a candidate from class war. He should not have said that. If you
:18:23. > :18:27.want to kick people out, there are lots of Labour Party members who did
:18:28. > :18:31.not fought Mike for me because they disagreed with me. That is the
:18:32. > :18:36.reality. I thought if you were a member of the Labour Party, you
:18:37. > :18:41.cannot be seen to support a member in an election against another
:18:42. > :18:46.party. He clearly did. He will do that, right down the line. He has
:18:47. > :18:49.not withdrawn it. I have supported people I completely disagree with
:18:50. > :18:56.because however much I disagree with the right wing Labour MP, he will
:18:57. > :19:00.still be better than a Tory. What it wise of Mr Corbyn to appoint John
:19:01. > :19:04.McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor Was he not too much of a left-wing
:19:05. > :19:12.troublemaker even for you at the GLC? He was my chair of finance no.
:19:13. > :19:18.We had a falling out over the Thatcher capping thing. Every year
:19:19. > :19:24.he produced a balanced budget. He never had a penny of borrowing to
:19:25. > :19:28.cover revenue spending. Most people in -- most people think everyone on
:19:29. > :19:32.the left spends and borrows and all that. But our background in
:19:33. > :19:36.government, we used to balance budgets. I think he understands
:19:37. > :19:41.budget is much more than any other Shadow Chancellor we have had. The
:19:42. > :19:46.death of Michael Meacher means the first by-election of the Corbyn
:19:47. > :19:51.either. It is a safe Labour seat, but in by-elections, there is
:19:52. > :19:55.probably no such thing. Should Labour now pick someone to fly the
:19:56. > :20:00.Jeremy Corbyn flag in this by-election? No, the local party
:20:01. > :20:06.should be free to choose whoever they want. I oppose Tony Blair
:20:07. > :20:09.imposing people on local parties. If they want to pick someone who is a
:20:10. > :20:17.critic of Jeremy Corbyn, they should be free to do so. Or a supporter. It
:20:18. > :20:22.has been reported to date and in the Sunday Times, in both the Scottish
:20:23. > :20:26.and London edition, that the Scottish Labour Party could well now
:20:27. > :20:30.be allowed to go its own way. We get the impression that a decision has
:20:31. > :20:36.been taken to do that, that it could have its own policy, it will run its
:20:37. > :20:39.own affairs, it may need money from London, what policies could be
:20:40. > :20:44.different on Trident and welfare from the English Labour Party. Would
:20:45. > :20:50.you support that? Absolutely. That is the Labour Party we had before
:20:51. > :20:56.Tony Blair. I was on the executive. The National party had no say in the
:20:57. > :20:59.GLC policies. The Scottish Labour Party did not have different
:21:00. > :21:04.policies. They should have the freedom to do so and reflect local
:21:05. > :21:09.views. We do not want this to be like North Korea when everything is
:21:10. > :21:13.run from the centre. If people in Scotland have a slightly different
:21:14. > :21:18.approach to people in London or East Anglia, let them do that. You would
:21:19. > :21:20.welcome that? Yes. Ken Livingstone, always good to talk to you. Thank
:21:21. > :21:22.you. Now,
:21:23. > :21:24.it's been compared to the poll tax But, so far, the Chancellor is not
:21:25. > :21:29.for turning on his plans to cut tax credits, which is likely to cause
:21:30. > :21:31.problems for millions of working poor, despite the growing chorus
:21:32. > :21:35.of disapproval from his own side. Mr Osborne says the reforms,
:21:36. > :21:44.which could see 3.3 million families lose an average of ?1,300 from next
:21:45. > :21:58.April are a key component of his The current system of working and
:21:59. > :22:02.child tax credits was introduced by the then Labour Chancellor Gordon
:22:03. > :22:08.Brown in 2003 as a means of redistributing income high paying
:22:09. > :22:11.money to families with children or working people on lolling comes
:22:12. > :22:17.About 4.5 million people claimed them with current estimates showing
:22:18. > :22:23.that around ?30 billion a year are spent on tax credits. That is 1 % of
:22:24. > :22:26.the total welfare budget. Before the election the Conservatives promised
:22:27. > :22:31.to find ?12 billion of welfare cuts and a month after polling day, try
:22:32. > :22:34.minister David Cameron said he would end the ridiculous merry-go-round of
:22:35. > :22:41.taxing low earners then paying them back in benefits. Chancellor George
:22:42. > :22:48.Osborne used a summer budget in July to announce plans to reduce the
:22:49. > :22:53.income threshold and tax credits from ?6,420 to ?3850. The government
:22:54. > :22:57.will also increase the proportion of credits it takes away above this
:22:58. > :23:06.threshold, a mechanism called the tape parade, from 41% to 48%. In
:23:07. > :23:13.September, MPs backed the chancellors plan voting to bring in
:23:14. > :23:16.the tax credit cuts next April. On Monday, the House of Lords gets its
:23:17. > :23:23.turn to vote on the matter. Convention dictates that peers
:23:24. > :23:27.cannot reject bills that appeared in a government manifesto or financial
:23:28. > :23:33.in content, but one tier has tabled what is known as a fatal motion
:23:34. > :23:41.which, if back, we'd see the tax credit changes rejected. With 2 9
:23:42. > :23:45.Conservatives coming up against 212 Labour and 176 cross bench, the
:23:46. > :23:48.government falls well short of the majority it needs in the upper house
:23:49. > :23:51.to defeat a united opposition. And joining me now
:23:52. > :23:53.from Kendall is the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, and from
:23:54. > :24:02.Nottingham, the former Conservative Welcome to both of you. Ken Clarke,
:24:03. > :24:07.let me come to you first. Are people on tax credits drivers or shirkers?
:24:08. > :24:11.They are strivers, of course they are, but you've got to have a
:24:12. > :24:15.sensible way of alleviating poverty among them. They hope I'd have a
:24:16. > :24:24.budget and the welfare state is to alleviate poverty but when you have
:24:25. > :24:31.got to reform it, and when you're trying to take ?12 billion of it
:24:32. > :24:38.because of the national economy it is time for common-sense. We were
:24:39. > :24:42.subsidising low pay economy, and we have got to move away from that In
:24:43. > :24:48.what were you alleviating poverty among some of the lowest paid people
:24:49. > :24:55.in the country by making them, a single earner, a couple, or lone
:24:56. > :25:00.parent with two kids, by making them ?1500 worse off? We're increasing
:25:01. > :25:04.the support for childcare, as the Chancellor says. We are introducing
:25:05. > :25:09.a living wage. That is taken into account in those figures. What is
:25:10. > :25:13.not calculable is how far the present strong labour market will
:25:14. > :25:19.lead wages to continue to go up The idea that in top of your employer's
:25:20. > :25:25.pay, you get government pay on top, and it was introduced so you would
:25:26. > :25:30.say, thank you Mr Brown, I will vote Labour. He put it up again before
:25:31. > :25:36.the 2010 election as well. This is not a valuable feature of the
:25:37. > :25:40.system. George has included other features in the system. There has
:25:41. > :25:44.never been a better time to do it because real incomes are going up by
:25:45. > :25:48.3% a year, employment is high and you can only tackle this difficult
:25:49. > :25:55.question when you have a strong labour market. I need to bring in
:25:56. > :25:58.Tim Farron. Tax credits cost 30,000,000,000-a-year. It is almost
:25:59. > :26:02.15% of the total welfare budget more than that if you take pensions
:26:03. > :26:07.out of the welfare budget. Is that too much and would you cut it in a
:26:08. > :26:12.different way? I think Ken Clarke is right to say we need to balance the
:26:13. > :26:17.budget, we agree on that definitely. The question is how do you do it.
:26:18. > :26:23.The tax credit cuts will hit 4. million children, 3 million families
:26:24. > :26:27.in this country, an average of 1300 a year they cannot afford. They will
:26:28. > :26:32.save the taxpayer or the Exchequer net savings of about 4.5 billion.
:26:33. > :26:36.This is about choices because there are other ways you could have found
:26:37. > :26:42.that money. The government did have decided not to give away ?1 billion
:26:43. > :26:47.of inheritance tax cuts. Or give away ?2.5 billion of Corporation tax
:26:48. > :26:51.cuts to big companies. You could have chosen the Liberal Democrat
:26:52. > :26:55.policy of taxing high-value wealth in terms of expensive properties.
:26:56. > :27:01.That would have managed the 4.5 billion they were going to save You
:27:02. > :27:05.are committed. You said in your speech as Liberal Democrat leader to
:27:06. > :27:10.the conference, that you're committed to balancing the current
:27:11. > :27:14.budget, which is the same as abolishing the structural deficit.
:27:15. > :27:19.How do you do that without 12 billion welfare cuts? What you have
:27:20. > :27:25.said gets you there, but it gets you nowhere near 12 billion. I have just
:27:26. > :27:31.explain some of the ways we would have done it. The Tory party chose
:27:32. > :27:36.to commit to ?12 billion worth of welfare savings. It did not need to
:27:37. > :27:41.do so. Remember, not a single tax rise in the Conservative's plans
:27:42. > :27:44.affect the wealthy. What we are talking about is effectively a tax
:27:45. > :27:49.rise targeted on the poorest people in this country. The phrase
:27:50. > :27:52.hard-working families is bandied about by politicians but people who
:27:53. > :27:57.worked almost every are a god sends in order to put food on the table
:27:58. > :28:02.for their kids and exist just above the breadline or the definition of
:28:03. > :28:05.hard-working families. We are committed that we should be
:28:06. > :28:09.supporting those people and we should block those cut. The
:28:10. > :28:13.Resolution Foundation is headed by a former Cabinet colleague of yours.
:28:14. > :28:18.It says that more than 1 million households will face an average loss
:28:19. > :28:22.of more than ?1300. Boris Johnson has warned of a political disaster
:28:23. > :28:26.if you carry on the way you're going. The Sun newspaper says you're
:28:27. > :28:33.hammering those who work hard and are paid little. Why do your natural
:28:34. > :28:38.allies not even support you? We live in the day and age of short-term,
:28:39. > :28:41.populist politics. It is unfortunately the case that
:28:42. > :28:46.chancellors cannot do anything without it being immediately
:28:47. > :28:50.unpopular and lobbied against. None of those people or in any way
:28:51. > :28:53.indicating anything they would cut in the welfare area that would
:28:54. > :28:57.contribute to the very serious problem we still have, which
:28:58. > :29:04.threatens our economic future if we do not tackle it, of just running a
:29:05. > :29:10.deficit all the time. What you must not do is support employers who are
:29:11. > :29:13.paying low pay, therefore not improving their productivity, we are
:29:14. > :29:20.beginning to move into a more sensible economy where employers pay
:29:21. > :29:26.pay and we are steadily the labour market is strengthening and pay is
:29:27. > :29:33.going up. If you're going to reform, you have got to take the tough
:29:34. > :29:37.decisions. Do you have to do it as brutally as many people think you
:29:38. > :29:43.are? After all, you're raising the inheritance tax threshold. That will
:29:44. > :29:48.go to the richest 5% in the country. You have cut the top rate of tax,
:29:49. > :29:52.which goes to the highest earners. You're taking a massive chunk of
:29:53. > :30:01.income out of the lowest paid. Why do you not postpone some of that? At
:30:02. > :30:04.least make the change more gentle. I quite understand. The instinct of
:30:05. > :30:10.most people is do not take money away from them, do not make me pay
:30:11. > :30:14.for it, they are rich people, particularly rich foreigners. Take
:30:15. > :30:20.the money from the big companies. If it was as easy as that, every
:30:21. > :30:22.Chancellor would do that. If you're Chancellor, you have to balance what
:30:23. > :30:28.you're doing to get that healthy economy that will give a good living
:30:29. > :30:31.to our children and grandchildren. Nowadays, everybody expects the
:30:32. > :30:36.budget to be full unpopular measures. In my day, people were
:30:37. > :30:40.more used to the Chancellor having to do the difficult things, and the
:30:41. > :30:46.judge you, not by the headlines after you have managed to get it
:30:47. > :30:49.through, the judge you by whether it looks as though it is working in
:30:50. > :30:57.three years' time. Tim Farron, what is your response?
:30:58. > :31:03.This is about choices. Ken Clarke and I agree with each other in a way
:31:04. > :31:08.that people leading the Labour Party don't agree, that you need to
:31:09. > :31:12.balance the books. You don't clear the deficit. At the moment, what we
:31:13. > :31:16.are asking the poorest paid people in our country to do is to pay the
:31:17. > :31:20.price that the Conservative government is choosing not to ask
:31:21. > :31:23.wealthy people to do. Absolutely balance the books and clear the
:31:24. > :31:28.deficit, but don't do it by taking way from the poorest paid hardest
:31:29. > :31:33.working families in this country which will cripple them, and at the
:31:34. > :31:38.same time, Andrew, as you have just said, you give an inheritance tax
:31:39. > :31:43.cut which benefits the 5% of the most wealthy. This is about choices
:31:44. > :31:46.and it is about poor choices. David Cameron one week before the election
:31:47. > :31:52.promised he would not be touching tax credits then he did. He has
:31:53. > :31:56.backed that mandate as a consequence. Many of his own
:31:57. > :31:59.backbenchers, Heidi Allen, I don't want to embarrass her with her
:32:00. > :32:05.stunning speech about the poorest paid people, and we are well within
:32:06. > :32:08.our rights to block this move. This brings beyond the House of Lords.
:32:09. > :32:12.They may block it in some form tomorrow. You are encouraging your
:32:13. > :32:18.Lib Dem peers to do just that and you have 111 of them which is about
:32:19. > :32:25.12 times more than you have MPs You described the Lords as a system
:32:26. > :32:28.which is rotten to the core and allows unelected unaccountable
:32:29. > :32:35.people to think they are above the law. Why would you use that
:32:36. > :32:40.institution to thwart the policy of the democratically elected
:32:41. > :32:44.government? First of all, I am the one party leader whose party in the
:32:45. > :32:49.last parliament did everything in our power to reform and
:32:50. > :32:53.democratisation of the. Labour and Conservatives thwarted us. In this
:32:54. > :32:59.Parliament, we have what we have. Rotten to the core, you said.
:33:00. > :33:03.Indeed. You're asking me to make a choice now about whether I should
:33:04. > :33:06.bout a convention or whether I stand up for 3 million low-paid families
:33:07. > :33:09.in this country, I back the low paid families. We have a set of
:33:10. > :33:13.mechanisms in Parliament available to us and it is right that we should
:33:14. > :33:17.make use of all of them to prevent the government from doing something
:33:18. > :33:20.which they did not put in their manifesto and will impoverish 3
:33:21. > :33:24.million very hard-working, just above the bread line or just below
:33:25. > :33:27.the breadline families in this country. I make no apologies for
:33:28. > :33:33.using whatever mechanisms are available to do that. Mr Clarke
:33:34. > :33:38.hasn't your government got yourself into a right mess? You are styling
:33:39. > :33:43.yourselves as the workers party that here it is, unelected Lords having
:33:44. > :33:49.to come to the rescue of some of the lowest paid workers in the country.
:33:50. > :33:52.It does not look good, does it? We won the election because working
:33:53. > :33:56.people of this country could see we were getting steadily better off.
:33:57. > :34:01.You did not tell them you would cut their tax credits. We said we would
:34:02. > :34:05.take ?12 million out of welfare .. You did not tell them you were going
:34:06. > :34:12.to cut their tax credits. It was not in the manifesto. I totally agree
:34:13. > :34:16.with Tim, we should have a reformed elected House of Lords. I voted with
:34:17. > :34:22.him in the last Parliament. It was backbenchers who wrecked it. It was
:34:23. > :34:26.a great pity. I have to say, if the Labour and Liberal peers decide to
:34:27. > :34:34.start casting party political votes when they see the government is
:34:35. > :34:38.having a bit of difficulty, in order to knock out ?4 billion worth of
:34:39. > :34:42.public expenditure savings, it is the end. We really will have to
:34:43. > :34:46.reform and do something about it. The Italians have just cut back the
:34:47. > :34:51.power of their Senate because they had chaotic arrangements before The
:34:52. > :34:55.Americans cannot govern the country because Congress stops the president
:34:56. > :35:02.from doing anything. We cannot have a huge number of peers we have. .
:35:03. > :35:06.Let me just dropped this and ask you, if the Lords does thwart the
:35:07. > :35:13.elected government tomorrow, should Mr Cameron create a more of new
:35:14. > :35:18.peers? That is what Lloyd George threatened to do. I know that. There
:35:19. > :35:22.are ridiculously too many member is already so it would make it even
:35:23. > :35:26.more ridiculous. Personally, I would table the bill we had in the last
:35:27. > :35:31.Parliament and tried to explain to our backbenchers that Britain is
:35:32. > :35:34.ready for parliamentary democracy of the sensible kind. Actually, I think
:35:35. > :35:38.there are a lot of Labour and Liberal peers who would agree with
:35:39. > :35:43.me. I think a lot of people would try to stop the peers from casting
:35:44. > :35:47.silly votes in this debate tomorrow. Mr Farren, a final
:35:48. > :35:51.question to you, it is the first time we have had a chance to talk to
:35:52. > :35:57.you since becoming Lib Dems leader, it is early days but Mark your own
:35:58. > :36:04.card, how is it going so far? We are 20,000 members are up since the
:36:05. > :36:13.election. I thought your membership was down from June? It peaked in
:36:14. > :36:18.June and it is now lower in October. No, it is still going up. The
:36:19. > :36:22.reality is it is still early days. We are in opposition with a much
:36:23. > :36:27.smaller of them -- smaller number of MPs. We have to stand up for the
:36:28. > :36:30.real liberal heart in British politics. We have seen the Labour
:36:31. > :36:35.Party making an interesting choice, shall we say, that they are entitled
:36:36. > :36:45.to make. That creates a vast space on the progressively competent
:36:46. > :36:48.progressive sphere in politics. We understand what really matters over
:36:49. > :36:52.the tax credit issue are the people who will suffer. I am bothered about
:36:53. > :36:56.people in my patch across the country on 12 or 13 grand a year who
:36:57. > :37:00.do not know how they will feed their kids. The way back for the liberal
:37:01. > :37:05.Democrats is to focus on the people, stand up to the outsiders and
:37:06. > :37:09.challenge the government. You will finally get some questions at PMQs
:37:10. > :37:15.because you lost that role to the Scottish Nationalists. Are you going
:37:16. > :37:19.to crowd source your questions? Are -- would you like us to e-mail some?
:37:20. > :37:23.Via macro I have been writing to Jeremy and he has not asked any of
:37:24. > :37:29.mine yet so I will have to use my own on Wednesday. I have some
:37:30. > :37:32.thoughts in mind. The other thing to remember is PMQs is not the most
:37:33. > :37:36.important thing in the world. There are other ways of getting your
:37:37. > :37:38.message across and that is why I am going to Lesbos tomorrow to
:37:39. > :37:44.highlight the refugee crisis and try and get the government to human
:37:45. > :37:48.player in stance on that position as well -- humanitarian stance. It may
:37:49. > :37:52.not be the most important but it is live on BBC Two on the Daily
:37:53. > :37:55.Politics every Wednesday. I hope our viewers will join us and see you in
:37:56. > :37:57.action. Thank you both. It's just gone 11.35, you're
:37:58. > :38:00.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:01. > :38:02.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:38:03. > :38:05.the Week Ahead. First though,
:38:06. > :38:14.the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to
:38:15. > :38:18.the London part of the show. Coming up later, part of the
:38:19. > :38:20.government's anti-terrorism strategy is under fire from a Labour council
:38:21. > :38:24.for damaging community cohesion Well, I'm joined for the duration
:38:25. > :38:30.of the show by Mike Gapes, Labour MP for Ilford South, and just
:38:31. > :38:33.up the road, Andrew Rosindell, Now first up, a new report out this
:38:34. > :38:40.week claims that the number of London's working poor has increased
:38:41. > :38:44.by 70% in the last ten years, and that the cuts in working tax credits
:38:45. > :38:49.to families next April could make That is a massive number
:38:50. > :38:56.of children that are going to be worse off as a result of those tax
:38:57. > :38:59.credit cuts, Andrew Rosindell? The reality is that we want to move
:39:00. > :39:03.to a different type of economy, so that we pay less tax,
:39:04. > :39:06.but earn more in wages. That is what
:39:07. > :39:11.the government is trying to do. The problem is tax credits
:39:12. > :39:16.are getting out of control. They have effectively almost become
:39:17. > :39:18.like another way We have to be realistic
:39:19. > :39:22.about this and think long-term. What is best for the country is to
:39:23. > :39:28.get the country back to work, George Osborne
:39:29. > :39:32.and his supporters like you have Do you think there should be
:39:33. > :39:36.a longer transitional period or do you think there should be more cash
:39:37. > :39:39.put in to mitigate some of those I believe that
:39:40. > :39:44.the principle is right but it is how you apply the policy, and certainly
:39:45. > :39:48.if there are people who are going to be in real difficulties as a result,
:39:49. > :39:51.the government needs to look I suspect the government are looking
:39:52. > :39:55.at how they can mitigate I think he will do something
:39:56. > :40:02.but what he will do at this stage, One
:40:03. > :40:07.of the biggest problems is housing. That has been a long-term issue
:40:08. > :40:11.over the last ten years. It is too expensive to live
:40:12. > :40:14.in London for a lot I have got massive problems
:40:15. > :40:24.in my constituency, private rents are going up, and the cost
:40:25. > :40:29.of housing benefit is a massive way in which the state is subsidising
:40:30. > :40:32.private landlords, as opposed to Do you think there should be more
:40:33. > :40:37.social housing or do you think something needs to be done to bring
:40:38. > :40:40.down the rents I think we need both a landlord
:40:41. > :40:47.registration scheme, which some local authorities have already done
:40:48. > :40:50.on their own, for the quality of the properties, but we also need to make
:40:51. > :40:55.sure that there is far more social housing, and local authorities are
:40:56. > :41:00.beginning to build properties again, as my borough Redbridge is
:41:01. > :41:02.beginning to do. Why is the government focusing
:41:03. > :41:05.so much on home ownership when it is clear that when you look
:41:06. > :41:09.at the poverty figures, and the in-work poverty figures of people
:41:10. > :41:13.living in London, housing makes up Would it not be better to
:41:14. > :41:20.build more social housing? There is a culture
:41:21. > :41:25.in this country that people want to People aspire to be homeowners
:41:26. > :41:30.and that is a good thing. It is right that we should also
:41:31. > :41:33.ensure that people who are not able to buy their own home, there is
:41:34. > :41:36.adequate social housing available. Is there adequate social
:41:37. > :41:38.housing available? Well, Mike is saying that Redbridge
:41:39. > :41:41.is doing it. We have the lowest amount
:41:42. > :41:46.of social housing of any borough. We only had a Labour council
:41:47. > :41:49.since last year. We have a massive problem
:41:50. > :41:52.in Redbridge, a large number of people living in poor quality
:41:53. > :41:56.private rented accommodation. Haverinng is different
:41:57. > :41:58.but nevertheless we are starting to A key part of the government's
:41:59. > :42:04.anti-terrorism strategy has been criticised by a Labour council
:42:05. > :42:07.for damaging community cohesion So, does the Conservative attempt to
:42:08. > :42:14.combat terrorism really risk making us more likely to be victims
:42:15. > :42:17.of another attack? The attacks of 7th July 2005
:42:18. > :42:25.prompted a change in the UK's In their aftermath, the government
:42:26. > :42:30.launched a programme called Prevent which aimed at stopping more people
:42:31. > :42:32.turning to violence through Nowhere lost more people in 7/7 than
:42:33. > :42:39.the London borough of Islington but last week the local council passed
:42:40. > :42:42.a motion which criticised Prevent and pledged to lobby the government
:42:43. > :42:56.for changes, promising... The motion was proposed
:42:57. > :42:58.by the sole Green councillor in this Labour-controlled authority,
:42:59. > :43:01.who says she was moved to act after I understand a child was talking
:43:02. > :43:07.about eco-terrorism in a French class, and rather than being praised
:43:08. > :43:13.for his excellent use of vocabulary, he found himself a couple
:43:14. > :43:15.of days later being questioned Parents I have been speaking to
:43:16. > :43:23.throughout my ward since this incident, whether they are parents
:43:24. > :43:27.of young children of primary age or older children, they are frightened,
:43:28. > :43:31.worried that their children are going to be reported for saying
:43:32. > :43:35.something taken out of context. Instead, the council say they
:43:36. > :43:38.favour a strategy of what they As an example,
:43:39. > :43:42.they pointed us in the direction Once the home of Abu Hamza,
:43:43. > :43:46.now serving a life sentence A decade ago, the police,
:43:47. > :43:52.the local council and the then Labour government asked a new group
:43:53. > :43:56.to take over running the mosque They told me they turned it
:43:57. > :43:59.from an empty hub of extremism with just 50 worshippers to a thriving
:44:00. > :44:05.and open community centre. However, the mosque leadership feel
:44:06. > :44:07.that under the current government, the support they used to enjoy has
:44:08. > :44:12.gone. We, here in Finsbury Park,
:44:13. > :44:16.have been labelled as extremists. We have been before
:44:17. > :44:19.in that situation This puts off young people from
:44:20. > :44:25.talking and engaging and discussing This puts off imams of mosques,
:44:26. > :44:32.to speak out and to engage with these young people, to try and teach
:44:33. > :44:38.them what Islam is about, away from extremism and radicalisation,
:44:39. > :44:41.away from what they hear and watch While the mosque wins plaudits from
:44:42. > :44:51.the council and the local MP, Jeremy Corbyn, who has even held surgeries
:44:52. > :44:54.here, it is not without controversy. Just this week, the Sun newspaper
:44:55. > :44:57.ran this piece about Just this week, the Sun newspaper
:44:58. > :45:05.ran this piece about According to Rashad Ali,
:45:06. > :45:09.who has worked in the government's Prevent programme, the experience of
:45:10. > :45:11.the Finsbury Park mosque reflects a broader trend of how the coalition
:45:12. > :45:14.and Conservative governments take a fundamentally different approach
:45:15. > :45:17.to their Labour predecessors. There are other organisations
:45:18. > :45:27.which had the ear of government and were very influential and are now
:45:28. > :45:30.seen as not just influential any more, but they are seen as people
:45:31. > :45:33.almost who the government cannot be I think to
:45:34. > :45:39.a large extent organisations like that have been taken outside
:45:40. > :45:44.of the political space. A decade on from 7/7, the UK is yet
:45:45. > :45:48.to see a repeat of terrorist attacks on the same scale, but both Labour
:45:49. > :45:51.and the Conservatives are accused of having had an anti-terror policy
:45:52. > :45:53.that potentially increases Joining us, Miqdaad Versi,
:45:54. > :45:59.Assistant Secretary General Have you been frozen out by
:46:00. > :46:05.the government as an organisation? I think that Muslim organisations
:46:06. > :46:09.across the UK, including the Muslim Council of Britain, have not
:46:10. > :46:12.really been engaged with by this government, in spite of us trying
:46:13. > :46:20.and providing attempts to solve the problems of terrorism, we have
:46:21. > :46:22.not been engaged with at all. Do you think that is
:46:23. > :46:26.because the government has felt that perhaps some extremist groups
:46:27. > :46:28.and some extremist preachers have not been confronted enough
:46:29. > :46:31.by organisations like you, and If we want to confront extremism
:46:32. > :46:38.and terrorism within any community, the first thing that needs to
:46:39. > :46:41.happen is to engage with the broad spectrum of those communities to
:46:42. > :46:44.understand what is going on. The Muslim Council of Britain is
:46:45. > :46:48.the largest umbrella body in the UK You would say you're very
:46:49. > :46:52.representative of the Muslim We are a representative
:46:53. > :46:57.of the Muslim committee. We cannot say we are the only one
:46:58. > :47:04.but we are the largest of this kind. It is unusual the government has
:47:05. > :47:08.chosen not to work with broad Muslim mainstream groups, but those that
:47:09. > :47:11.say yes to what it wants to hear. The government and David Cameron
:47:12. > :47:15.have made much of wanting to engage with groups that uphold British
:47:16. > :47:21.values, rightly or wrongly. Would you not blame the government
:47:22. > :47:24.for not wanting to engage with the Muslim Council of Britain, who
:47:25. > :47:27.refuse to attend Holocaust Memorial Day, and who have described
:47:28. > :47:32.homosexuality as unacceptable, as a group that does not uphold
:47:33. > :47:34.the same British values the We have to be careful
:47:35. > :47:39.about how we use these terms. The Education Secretary voted
:47:40. > :47:41.against same-sex marriage We are in a situation where there
:47:42. > :47:49.seems to be different targets The Muslim Council of Britain does
:47:50. > :47:54.attend Holocaust Memorial Day. There were different questions
:47:55. > :47:59.behind the scenes about how that should reflect a broader range
:48:00. > :48:02.of genocides, but that is not the point, the Muslim Council of
:48:03. > :48:05.Britain does do these things, as do If we want to confront terrorism,
:48:06. > :48:10.we should do so by engaging those Andrew Rosindell, it is surely
:48:11. > :48:14.counter-productive not to be fully engaged with an organisation like
:48:15. > :48:18.the Muslim Council of Great Britain? I agree with what you have
:48:19. > :48:20.just said, actually. We should engage with everyone
:48:21. > :48:24.across civil society. You cannot solve problems as deep
:48:25. > :48:29.as this without engaging with everyone, however,
:48:30. > :48:31.there is a strong feeling that we in this country have a responsibility
:48:32. > :48:37.to uphold British values, and that What in your mind
:48:38. > :48:44.constitutes British values? Tolerance for a start,
:48:45. > :48:46.respect for people of all religions and backgrounds, and respect
:48:47. > :48:51.for national traditions. Christian faith is the established
:48:52. > :48:55.faith of this country and our laws and traditions are based on that,
:48:56. > :48:58.all religions and denominations are equal under the law in this country,
:48:59. > :49:02.and rightly so, but there is a feeling that there are some sections
:49:03. > :49:06.of the Muslim community that are not standing strongly enough
:49:07. > :49:09.against some of the extremists that Was it right
:49:10. > :49:15.for the government to cut ties with It is not
:49:16. > :49:18.my decision to have done that. I am personally bemused
:49:19. > :49:22.by why that has happened. There needs to be
:49:23. > :49:30.a dialogue with everybody. This fear
:49:31. > :49:32.of climate that people are worried about being generated in some parts
:49:33. > :49:34.of the country and in London, a young child being questioned
:49:35. > :49:37.for talking about eco-terrorism Yes,
:49:38. > :49:40.it seems like someone has completely A young man
:49:41. > :49:52.in Blackburn was recently sentenced for being involved
:49:53. > :49:54.in a terrorist plot in Australia. The fact is, we do have
:49:55. > :49:57.radicalisation of young people, men and women, boys and girls, and that
:49:58. > :50:02.is an issue for the whole community. We have to be very careful that we
:50:03. > :50:05.do not say, it is the Muslim community who has to deal with
:50:06. > :50:08.the problems of grooming young people, radicalisation,
:50:09. > :50:10.going to Syria or whatever. It is a responsibility for all
:50:11. > :50:12.of us, One of those values is
:50:13. > :50:19.the equality of men and women, opposition to homophobia,
:50:20. > :50:22.anti-Semitism, Islamophobia Do you think the Muslim Council
:50:23. > :50:30.of Britain foreshortened those? Over the years I have had a mixed
:50:31. > :50:33.relationship with some of the groups It is an umbrella organisation
:50:34. > :50:40.and overall I think they should be engaged with but clearly
:50:41. > :50:42.in any umbrella organisation, you have people who are more radical
:50:43. > :50:44.and more moderate. Is Prevent counter-productive
:50:45. > :50:46.in your mind? You have to realise that
:50:47. > :50:53.when you have a strategy that tries to counter-extremism without
:50:54. > :50:57.defining it properly, it results in a conflation of extremism
:50:58. > :51:00.and terrorism, we have a problem. Young children were mentioned
:51:01. > :51:05.in the report, but throughout the country, young
:51:06. > :51:07.children are suddenly being told Young people who are asking
:51:08. > :51:14.questions in physics classes, which happen to be
:51:15. > :51:18.about nuclear fission, are suddenly Even three-year-old toddlers
:51:19. > :51:23.are going down this route. More and more
:51:24. > :51:28.of this is taking place across the It leads to communities finding
:51:29. > :51:34.themselves as separate, being looked If you want equality,
:51:35. > :51:39.I would have thought that would be something that everybody would be
:51:40. > :51:42.able to adhere to and support. Would you describe the Labour
:51:43. > :51:44.leader, Jeremy Corbyn, as a mainstream politician or
:51:45. > :51:47.someone on the extreme? Everybody who is a leader of a
:51:48. > :51:50.mainstream political party in this But there are of course views within
:51:51. > :51:55.political parties, and my position is well known, I do
:51:56. > :51:58.not agree with Jeremy on everything, but nevertheless, I wouldn't say
:51:59. > :52:03.he's an extremist, absolutely not. It is estimated 35%
:52:04. > :52:07.of live music venues in London have London mayor Boris Johnson set up
:52:08. > :52:15.a task force to look at how smaller The task force has
:52:16. > :52:17.now reported back. In recent years,
:52:18. > :52:23.the number of London grassroots live Between 2007-2015, over 50 clubs
:52:24. > :52:33.closed their doors, meaning that the capital now has just 88
:52:34. > :52:36.grassroots venues still operating. This trend has sparked concern
:52:37. > :52:38.among musicians. You play the small places on the way
:52:39. > :52:47.up, but it seems to be a problem nowadays that there is only really
:52:48. > :52:59.tiny pubs or huge arenas to play. This week, the mayor's music
:53:00. > :53:02.venues task force released this Amongst its recommendations is
:53:03. > :53:15.the creation of a so-called night mayor and
:53:16. > :53:18.putting the onus on developers to for soundproofing if developments
:53:19. > :53:21.are built next to a music venue Will this report help save London's
:53:22. > :53:23.grassroots music industry, And we're joined by Auro Foxcroft,
:53:24. > :53:31.owner of the music club Village Underground, who is on the
:53:32. > :53:35.mayor's music venues task force Why are so many grassroots
:53:36. > :53:38.music venues closing? There are lots of reasons why venues
:53:39. > :53:43.close down, some of them are legislative issues, some to do with
:53:44. > :53:46.development, some to do with rising rents and rates, some around
:53:47. > :53:50.the lack of reinvestment into that grassroots sector
:53:51. > :53:55.of the music industry, but the important thing is that
:53:56. > :53:58.the solution is not complicated and the report that we have generated
:53:59. > :54:02.lays out a suite of recommendations How culturally important are
:54:03. > :54:08.they to a city like London? They are fantastically important
:54:09. > :54:13.from a cultural and social point of view, from the point of view
:54:14. > :54:16.of people's own lives and enjoyment of music, and also, London is the
:54:17. > :54:22.most visited city, or place in the I think music tourism
:54:23. > :54:29.in London is something around 6 0 million this year, and all
:54:30. > :54:32.of this work contributes a lot to It generates a lot of money,
:54:33. > :54:46.but on the other hand, they are Is it a case of charging people more
:54:47. > :54:54.to come in and enjoy these venues or We are talking specifically about
:54:55. > :54:58.the grassroots end of the music industry that generates the talent
:54:59. > :55:00.pipeline that goes through and At that grassroots level, increasing
:55:01. > :55:09.the cost is very difficult, young people going to venues, they do not
:55:10. > :55:12.have a lot of disposable income especially at the moment, so that
:55:13. > :55:15.is hard, but modest decreases in business rates and other support
:55:16. > :55:17.from the government would be very What about a mayor
:55:18. > :55:24.for night-time London? That is a great idea,
:55:25. > :55:26.this so-called night mayor. It is an interesting proposition
:55:27. > :55:34.and one that has been borrowed from the Netherlands who have night
:55:35. > :55:41.mayors in most of their major cities who help to balance out the needs
:55:42. > :55:44.of the night-time economy. Is this something that
:55:45. > :55:49.must be maintained? Michael Dugher, who is
:55:50. > :55:55.the shadow Secretary of State, the new one, was part of the support
:55:56. > :55:59.and launch, I understand it. As a jazz fan and a member
:56:00. > :56:03.of the all-party Parliamentary jazz group, I was at live jazz last night
:56:04. > :56:07.in my constituency, in a very small venue, the Royal Air
:56:08. > :56:10.Force Association Club, which does As far as I'm concerned,
:56:11. > :56:13.it is great. When did you last go to a gig,
:56:14. > :56:16.Andrew? You can leave Romford every
:56:17. > :56:25.so often. This is part of our culture,
:56:26. > :56:29.our national heritage. The music industry is really
:56:30. > :56:32.important, it has been for We have to try and find ways to help
:56:33. > :56:42.them continue to survive, Would you be prepared to put
:56:43. > :56:48.your money where your mouth is as far as this is concerned, and
:56:49. > :56:51.these are grassroots music venues? The whole issue
:56:52. > :56:53.of business rates needs looking at. There are lots of businesses
:56:54. > :56:56.that are struggling and do not Where you have got certain niche
:56:57. > :57:02.areas that could benefit from a review of business rates
:57:03. > :57:06.perhaps a lower rate or to be exempt for a short period, if we can
:57:07. > :57:10.help businesses such as the music industry in that way,
:57:11. > :57:12.we should not rule that out, Ideas for night mayor,
:57:13. > :57:15.the night-time mayor? I hope that Sadiq Khan will be able
:57:16. > :57:21.to do it as part of his overall job, Time for the rest of
:57:22. > :57:39.the political news in 60 Seconds. Protesters against the proposed
:57:40. > :57:43.third runway demonstrated in Whitehall against the Cabinet
:57:44. > :57:46.Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, who had written to senior politicians
:57:47. > :57:49.asking them not to speak out against Heathrow expansion
:57:50. > :57:51.in case it sparked legal challenges According to the Independent
:57:52. > :57:59.Police Complaints Commission, body cameras worn by armed Met police
:58:00. > :58:03.officers are unfit for purpose. It said the position of the cameras
:58:04. > :58:06.on officers' bodies obscured and The Olympic Park Orbit Tower lost
:58:07. > :58:13.half a million in the last 12 months, according to the London
:58:14. > :58:15.Legacy Development Corporation. Labour leader of the
:58:16. > :58:18.London Assembly, Len Duvall, called it a pointless monument
:58:19. > :58:22.at vast taxpayer expense. Statistics from the Department
:58:23. > :58:24.of the Environment show that London councils dominate the table
:58:25. > :58:26.for the highest number Newham had more than 70,000
:58:27. > :58:33.incidents in 2014-15, followed by Let's pick up on a couple
:58:34. > :58:45.of those issues. The monument at Olympic Park,
:58:46. > :58:48.what is your view? From next season, as a season ticket
:58:49. > :58:51.holder at West Ham, I will be I do not know if it is
:58:52. > :58:59.a white elephant, but even if it is not in operation in terms of paid
:59:00. > :59:02.visitors, it would still be a I do not particularly like it, I
:59:03. > :59:16.drive past it, but it is a landmark Len Duvall says it is
:59:17. > :59:21.a vanity project. It probably was, but nevertheless,
:59:22. > :59:24.it will cost money to take it down, Let's move onto one
:59:25. > :59:30.of the other issues, Heathrow. The Cabinet Secretary had warned
:59:31. > :59:33.ministers not to discuss options That was around conference season,
:59:34. > :59:39.probably because of fear What is your view
:59:40. > :59:44.about the third runway? Clearly ministers have to take legal
:59:45. > :59:46.advice about what they say We can speak out
:59:47. > :59:54.and express our views. I think that Heathrow, to expand it,
:59:55. > :00:01.probably that is what will happen at the end of the day,
:00:02. > :00:06.but I think Boris's idea of thinking long-term and having
:00:07. > :00:08.a brand-new airport long-term, is Heathrow in the short term is
:00:09. > :00:13.probably the best way forward. Crossrail is going to go through
:00:14. > :00:16.my constituency and Andrew's. We're in
:00:17. > :00:19.the position that journey times will be halved from north-east London
:00:20. > :00:21.and Essex into Heathrow airport For my point of view,
:00:22. > :00:28.I support Heathrow rather than going to a remote Gatwick which will take
:00:29. > :00:31.an hour and three quarters. Stanstead I'm not sure about
:00:32. > :00:37.but the priority is to get this decision on Heathrow at last,
:00:38. > :00:42.because frankly, the hours that you spend stacking to go into Heathrow,
:00:43. > :00:52.it is full to capacity now. Do you think they might fudge it
:00:53. > :00:54.because it is We should not,
:00:55. > :00:57.we should get on with the job, We've been elected to government,
:00:58. > :01:02.it is our power to make that choice now and we've got to do what is
:01:03. > :01:04.right for London and the quicker we get on with the
:01:05. > :01:08.job, the better I think it will be. Thank you to both of you
:01:09. > :01:11.for being my guests today, Andrew Rosindell and Mike Gapes, and with
:01:12. > :01:17.that, it is back to you, Andrew So a constitutional crisis
:01:18. > :01:19.looming over tax credits. A non-apology
:01:20. > :01:21.from Tony Blair over Iraq and more talk about the direction
:01:22. > :01:36.of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party Before we do that, an apology. I
:01:37. > :01:42.said Andrew Fisher, the new policy adviser to Jeremy Corbyn had urged
:01:43. > :01:46.people to vote for what I've described as the Trotskyite
:01:47. > :01:56.candidate. It has been pointed out to me that Class cat macro war is
:01:57. > :02:08.not Trotskyite, it is anarchist Either way, he got 65 votes so not
:02:09. > :02:17.that influential. What do you make of it all? Ken Livingstone said we
:02:18. > :02:28.should not go after moderate MPs that then he said we could. The
:02:29. > :02:31.person he cited was Simon Danczuk. There is this incredible gift that
:02:32. > :02:36.George Osborne has handed to those who would like to reselect Labour
:02:37. > :02:38.MPs which is the boundary review. It was meant to happen in the last
:02:39. > :02:51.Parliament, it will now happen in this Parliament. The night wing say
:02:52. > :02:57.they need to have reselection. John McDonnell said they will not do what
:02:58. > :03:04.was done in the 1980s but the Momentum group have been handed this
:03:05. > :03:09.gift. So they do not need boundaries election because so many seats will
:03:10. > :03:14.be thrown up in the air because of the cutting of MPs. It should not be
:03:15. > :03:17.surprising that someone who has won the Labour leadership by a huge
:03:18. > :03:23.majority and attracted new people into it, would want these new people
:03:24. > :03:28.to have an influence in his party and who his MPs are? The problem is
:03:29. > :03:32.it does not take a plot for the moderates to find themselves in
:03:33. > :03:38.trouble. The party has expanded so hugely and they are not all the old
:03:39. > :03:44.trots and militant tendencies. There are lots of new, young and indeed
:03:45. > :03:47.old, people who got alienated from Labour before, are on the left and
:03:48. > :03:52.are often quite politically naive, and if they are going to be making
:03:53. > :03:57.the selection, they may just instinctively go for a new left wing
:03:58. > :04:02.-- a more left-wing candidate, without anybody having to organise
:04:03. > :04:06.in the old Militant way. Some of the parties are three times the size
:04:07. > :04:10.they were before. These people will not necessarily know the sitting MP,
:04:11. > :04:12.they will not be the people who have been out wet Thursday nights with
:04:13. > :04:17.the clipboard doing the work, but they will be the people who come in
:04:18. > :04:21.when it comes selection time and make the vote. I think that does put
:04:22. > :04:29.a lot of these MPs at serious perils.
:04:30. > :04:33.Under Mr Livingstone's demeanour, he fundamentally said, if you are a
:04:34. > :04:38.sitting centrist Labour MP that either go with the flow, become a
:04:39. > :04:43.bit more left yourself, a bit more in tune with what Mr Corbyn and the
:04:44. > :04:47.activists want, or you could well face reselection. And I think what
:04:48. > :04:51.Ken Livingstone has noticed is that the right of the party, the
:04:52. > :04:55.moderates, have been incredibly pathetic at fighting back, not just
:04:56. > :04:59.against Corbyn is but over the last five years. We talk about the
:05:00. > :05:04.left-wing takeover of the party since May, you look at the candidate
:05:05. > :05:07.selection, the direction of the National policy Forum, the direction
:05:08. > :05:12.of the National executive committee, they have all taken a left-wing tilt
:05:13. > :05:17.post 2010. This is a slightly more extreme version of something which
:05:18. > :05:21.has been going on for half a decade. The right of the party have not
:05:22. > :05:24.fought back which is why I find it interesting that Frank Field has
:05:25. > :05:30.said we need to intensify our efforts and he is pro-those
:05:31. > :05:49.proposing the idea of provoking elections and having moderate
:05:50. > :05:52.candidates stand as elections. If you cause that amount of fuss, there
:05:53. > :05:54.is a limit to how far it can go Frank Field who nominated Jeremy
:05:55. > :05:57.Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party. I would suggest to you, Nick,
:05:58. > :06:00.if things can continue in the direction they are going, come the
:06:01. > :06:04.next Labour Party conference in the autumn of 2016, this will be from
:06:05. > :06:11.the NDC to the policy Forum, to the people of the conference, a very
:06:12. > :06:15.different Labour Party. The power of the Labour Party does not rest in
:06:16. > :06:21.the Parliamentary Labour Party. The power of the Labour Party rests in
:06:22. > :06:25.the membership. 59.7% of whom are elected Jeremy Corbyn. Some of the
:06:26. > :06:29.anti-Corbyn faction were delighted with themselves because they have
:06:30. > :06:33.managed to get some non-Corbyn people on the executive of the
:06:34. > :06:37.Labour Party, haven't we done well? To which you say, well done, guys,
:06:38. > :06:43.but you ain't got the power. The power is outside now. Let's move on
:06:44. > :06:47.to what the Lords will be doing tomorrow. The education secretary
:06:48. > :06:50.Nicky Morgan was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier this morning talking
:06:51. > :06:52.about that. This is what she had to say.
:06:53. > :06:55.I think the House of Lords, they should be very clear,
:06:56. > :06:59.Often they do make good points, but they are striking down 70%
:07:00. > :07:03.They have already made it more difficult for us on child care,
:07:04. > :07:06.for example, where they are going to slow down things.
:07:07. > :07:08.Child care is one of those things that people really
:07:09. > :07:14.Without going into specifics, what you're saying to the House
:07:15. > :07:17.of Lords is, be very, very careful before you do that, think
:07:18. > :07:21.I think they should be mindful of what they are doing.
:07:22. > :07:22.It is constitutionally unprecedented to strike
:07:23. > :07:26.down a statutory instrument on a taxation and spending matter.
:07:27. > :07:35.Well, of course, Polly, we live for constitutional crises, don't we I
:07:36. > :07:39.fear we may be disappointed? I think we may be but I wish they would blow
:07:40. > :07:42.the whole thing apart. If you have a government which has no intention of
:07:43. > :07:47.reforming the House of Lords whatsoever, 800 people in there I
:07:48. > :07:50.think that the Liberal Democrats, the Labour Party and anyone with any
:07:51. > :07:56.common sense in the House of Lords is entirely free to say, to hell
:07:57. > :08:01.with convention, we will vote as we feel. You can abolish us if you like
:08:02. > :08:05.and it would be a dam good thing if you did, but of course, because they
:08:06. > :08:09.love being there. Let's have another 200 because then
:08:10. > :08:19.we would overtake the Communist Party's then a recession in China.
:08:20. > :08:22.It would make Cameron look absurd. Maybe that would push us towards
:08:23. > :08:27.reform. Maybe people would say we cannot tolerate this. It looks as if
:08:28. > :08:36.he bishops are the ones who will come to the rescue. They say no
:08:37. > :08:45.fatal motions, let's just regret. They regret but they should rebel.
:08:46. > :08:50.If we did appoint as a nation even more unelected members of the upper
:08:51. > :08:54.chamber, I guess there is a possibility it really would seem
:08:55. > :08:59.more ludicrous to more people? And there is a rich British tradition of
:09:00. > :09:04.stuffing the Lords for political self interest which did not end well
:09:05. > :09:06.last time. I think there were a constitutional crisis, perversely it
:09:07. > :09:12.would suit the government in the short term, because it would muddy
:09:13. > :09:18.the issue of tax credits. It takes the attention of tax credits. They
:09:19. > :09:25.are the faster on a wicket with the issue of the Lords than tax credits.
:09:26. > :09:27.You are an unelected chamber of 10 billion people, I think we are the
:09:28. > :09:32.only four people in London not in the Lords and it is only a matter of
:09:33. > :09:36.time for you, Andrew! How do you know I have not been offered
:09:37. > :09:41.already? Lloyd George, there were the Conservative Lords being against
:09:42. > :09:44.the people's budget. This time the Lords should be rebelling on behalf
:09:45. > :09:52.of the people because they would be in favour... A progressive force.
:09:53. > :10:00.What is interesting is how close close we did come to constitutional
:10:01. > :10:07.crisis. Molly Meacher tabled a motion which would have killed them
:10:08. > :10:12.stone dead. A cross-party group said you cannot do this, we are not a
:10:13. > :10:17.vertical grip. I want to call this to a halt because I just see a clip
:10:18. > :10:23.of Mr Tony Blair who was on CNN this morning talking about the Iraq war.
:10:24. > :10:26.Whenever I am asked this, I can say that I apologise
:10:27. > :10:28.for the fact that the intelligence we received was wrong.
:10:29. > :10:30.Because even though he had used chemical weapons
:10:31. > :10:33.extensively against his own people, against others, the programme in the
:10:34. > :10:37.form that we thought it was did not exist in the way that we thought.
:10:38. > :10:42.I can apologise for that, I can also apologise, by the way,
:10:43. > :10:46.for some of the mistakes in planning, and certainly our mistake
:10:47. > :10:51.in our understanding of what would happen once you removed the regime.
:10:52. > :10:55.But I find it hard to apologise for removing Saddam.
:10:56. > :10:59.Even today, in 2015, it is better that he's not there
:11:00. > :11:14.We have only got a minute left. Polly, didn't we know all that? We
:11:15. > :11:18.knew that. Nothing new there. He will never apologise for conducting
:11:19. > :11:22.a war which killed a lot of people, including our own people. I don t
:11:23. > :11:26.think any leader can ever do that. I suppose a bit more straightforward
:11:27. > :11:30.than I apologise directly, but maybe a bit more straight? I think he
:11:31. > :11:34.might have trained as a barrister! I think he is preparing the ground for
:11:35. > :11:45.Wendy Chilcot report comes out. He knows where he will be criticised so
:11:46. > :11:48.he is neutralising that territory. -- when the Chilcot report comes
:11:49. > :11:52.out. For macro he will know what they say about you in advance by
:11:53. > :11:58.this bizarre process. He will know so is he preparing the ground? He
:11:59. > :12:01.apologised for the quality of the intelligence, not for an pin-up the
:12:02. > :12:08.intelligence he received. I wonder whether Chilcot will say bad
:12:09. > :12:12.intelligence is understandable but you chose to play up what
:12:13. > :12:17.intelligence you did receive and that is not quite what he said sorry
:12:18. > :12:23.for. And we know what Chilcot thinks about the intelligence because he
:12:24. > :12:31.was a member of the Butler enquiry who made the precise point, you
:12:32. > :12:33.stripped out the caveats. Being misled by bad intelligence is one
:12:34. > :12:38.thing and you could take that at face value if you are so inclined,
:12:39. > :12:44.knowing the intelligence was not as robust as you claimed it to be as a
:12:45. > :12:48.basis for war is entirely another? Never underestimate Tony Blair's
:12:49. > :12:52.ability to deceive himself. He wanted to believe it, he needed to
:12:53. > :12:56.believe it and he probably did believe it. That is why Lord Butler
:12:57. > :13:01.said after the publication of his report, he was astonished that no
:13:02. > :13:05.journalist said to him, and what do you think the Prime Minister should
:13:06. > :13:10.do now? Because he was pretty seriously critical of that stripping
:13:11. > :13:14.out of the caveats. A pity he did not say so at the time because we
:13:15. > :13:16.could have asked him. We can not get everything right.
:13:17. > :13:20.The Daily Politics is on at lunch time every weekday over
:13:21. > :13:23.on BBC Two and I'll be back here next week, same time, same place.
:13:24. > :13:25.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:26. > :14:19.Eight anglers are thrown in the deep end. Argh!
:14:20. > :14:24.They'll compete in some of the most extreme places around the world