:00:36. > :00:39.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.The spectre of surveillance as the Government outlines new
:00:43. > :00:44.powers in the digital age for our security services and new
:00:45. > :00:52.Are they enough to allay worries about the prying eyes of the state?
:00:53. > :00:55.It's been a frightful week on Downing Street for George Osborne.
:00:56. > :00:59.Has the Chancellor's reputation suffered lasting damage?
:01:00. > :01:01.International Women's day gets debated by MPs every year,
:01:02. > :01:04.but does there need to be a debate on men's issues to mark
:01:05. > :01:18.In London, diesel is responsible for nearly half of all the capital's air
:01:19. > :01:25.pollution and the Mayor is being urged to do more to clean up that
:01:26. > :01:29.And with me on All Hallows' day three saintly political journalists
:01:30. > :01:31.Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting
:01:32. > :01:37.So, it's been rumbling for weeks but the row over the Chancellor s
:01:38. > :01:40.cuts to tax credits finally came to a head last week with a defeat
:01:41. > :01:44.in the Lords and serious dissent among Tory MPs in the Commons.
:01:45. > :01:47.George Osborne has gone back to the drawing board on tax credits
:01:48. > :01:50.and promised to "deal with" the House of Lords, whose actions
:01:51. > :01:56.The Prime Minister set up a review of the Lord's powers.
:01:57. > :02:00.That review is being headed by hereditary Tory peer
:02:01. > :02:05.He had agreed to do an interview with us this morning but 10
:02:06. > :02:14.Downing Street phoned us yesterday to pull him from the show.
:02:15. > :02:24.We think the government does not want us to talk about tax credits,
:02:25. > :02:28.so let's talk about tax credits Janan, will the Chancellor now get
:02:29. > :02:33.away with some fine tuning, with some tweaking, or does he have to
:02:34. > :02:39.start from scratch? Even the tweaking is very difficult. It is
:02:40. > :02:42.technically difficult to reform the policy while simultaneously helping
:02:43. > :02:46.people who stand to lose out. It is fiscally difficult because the
:02:47. > :02:51.current policy saves about ?4 billion, a third of the ?12 billion
:02:52. > :02:58.he pledged to fine from welfare There is no managerial way of doing
:02:59. > :03:01.it. What could be done is either projecting, or hoping for
:03:02. > :03:08.projections of higher tax receipts so he has to cut less. The deficit
:03:09. > :03:14.is not as bad. Or move the target for getting rid of the deficit and
:03:15. > :03:20.achieving the surplus year later. It is a much more fundamental solution.
:03:21. > :03:25.It was only a few months ago the Tory press thought Mr Osborne walked
:03:26. > :03:32.on water. His reputation has taken a real battering from this. In a very
:03:33. > :03:35.short time, three weeks since the Tory party conference when they
:03:36. > :03:40.walked out in a state of Triumph and euphoria. This budget looks like
:03:41. > :03:46.another omnishambles and considerably more serious. Last time
:03:47. > :03:50.it was funny with pasty taxes. This time, can he really drive through
:03:51. > :03:59.all these cuts? At the moment he is trying to put imposed 40% cuts which
:04:00. > :04:05.are undoable, like local government. This is only the first of many more
:04:06. > :04:09.that will come, this undertaking. Ministers will cave in and accept
:04:10. > :04:18.the cuts, but their departments will fall apart and they will rebel.
:04:19. > :04:22.Against a weaker Chancellor. Yes. As Janan says, there is no tweaking
:04:23. > :04:27.available. He gives back exactly the same amount of money he takes away,
:04:28. > :04:32.or these hard-working people will be out of pocket. What do you hear
:04:33. > :04:36.about what might be in the pipeline? We have got the Autumn
:04:37. > :04:40.Statement and a comprehensive review, a three-year rolling
:04:41. > :04:46.spending plan. It is on the last Wednesday of this month and now we
:04:47. > :04:53.are in November, what is he up to? He is going to pony up and pony up
:04:54. > :04:57.megabucks thanks to Rupert Harrison, his former economics
:04:58. > :05:00.adviser and he devised the deficit reduction plan in the last
:05:01. > :05:05.Parliament and the plan to target the surplus in this Parliament. It
:05:06. > :05:11.sounds really hard line, there is no change from plan A, but it always
:05:12. > :05:15.has written into it plan B and planned sea. He has delayed by one
:05:16. > :05:19.year the targeting of the surplus and he could delay it by a further
:05:20. > :05:25.year and still reach it by the time of the general election. Or he could
:05:26. > :05:29.say because the OBE I will revise down economic growth forecasts by
:05:30. > :05:35.the time of the Autumn Statement, the 10 billion he is meant to
:05:36. > :05:39.achieve by 2019-2020, that could come down. The Chancellor is in a
:05:40. > :05:43.hole and he is not stupid and he is going to get out of it and he is
:05:44. > :05:50.going to spend a lot of money, but he will sound hard line by duffing
:05:51. > :05:54.up the House of Lords. Do we take it seriously, the duffing up of the
:05:55. > :06:00.House of Lords to reflect from the tax credits strimmer? Strimmer,
:06:01. > :06:07.rumpus, whatever you want to call it. There was a lot of talk about
:06:08. > :06:13.them stuffing the Lords... With Tory peers? Which ended badly the last
:06:14. > :06:17.time it happened about 100 years ago. I cannot believe they will do
:06:18. > :06:23.anything as provocative as that but if he wired House of Lords another
:06:24. > :06:26.incident like this and you make the argument for your own abolition
:06:27. > :06:33.There is a good argument for reform and abolition. I do not see why the
:06:34. > :06:41.Lords should not do this as often as they want as long as the government
:06:42. > :06:44.refuses to have a democratic debate. Willie Whitelaw is not of the most
:06:45. > :06:50.ferocious people in the entire political system. We could have put
:06:51. > :06:54.him through the fire this morning, but at least we did not talk about
:06:55. > :06:57.Now, how far should the security services be able to spy
:06:58. > :07:01.This week the Government will publish draft legislation to create
:07:02. > :07:04.new powers and a new framework for the security services as they adapt
:07:05. > :07:06.to the ever-growing challenges of digital communications being used by
:07:07. > :07:08.the bad guys - terrorists, criminals,
:07:09. > :07:10.paedophiles. But is there still a danger the privacy of innocent
:07:11. > :07:13.Joe public gets gets violated as the power to intrude is extended?
:07:14. > :07:25.There is not one person at MI6 who is not talking about it.
:07:26. > :07:30.What, the upcoming draft Investigatory Powers Bill?
:07:31. > :07:33.Sadly, my invite to the premiere of the new film got lost in the post,
:07:34. > :07:37.so I am at this display of Bond cars at the London Film Museum instead.
:07:38. > :07:44.In the new Bond film in which he drives this, one of the themes is
:07:45. > :07:48.surveillance in the Internet age, and Westminster is revving up
:07:49. > :07:52.for a potential row about how much the police and intelligence agencies
:07:53. > :08:01.Because in the Goldfinger years of the '60s, it was easy to spy
:08:02. > :08:05.on the villains, tail their Rolls or tap their phone.
:08:06. > :08:08.Now, in the Daniel Craig era, the spooks need new weapons to track
:08:09. > :08:18.One source told me that the work at places like the listening post
:08:19. > :08:21.GCHQ has shifted from looking for a needle in a haystack to finding a
:08:22. > :08:25.piece of hay in a haystack, and so a big question will be, how does the
:08:26. > :08:29.goverment handle what is called bulk data? In other words,
:08:30. > :08:34.looking at everyone's web activity to isolate the dodgy stuff.
:08:35. > :08:38.Not something to worry about, say security types.
:08:39. > :08:40.They are not interested in whether Lord West is having
:08:41. > :08:44.They do not care, they do not look at that.
:08:45. > :08:48.What they want to know is, am I talking to a bomb maker in the
:08:49. > :08:51.Yemen who is talking to someone who they know has carried out an attack
:08:52. > :08:54.in the Middle East before, who is talking to some American group that
:08:55. > :08:57.we know are terrorists, that is talking to some people
:08:58. > :09:03.When they get all these linkages, they hone it down and hone it down,
:09:04. > :09:06.they use big data in the sense they use other techniques to refine it,
:09:07. > :09:09.then they will say, this is extremely worrying, there is
:09:10. > :09:13.something going on and then they will say, we want to go and look
:09:14. > :09:18.at the detail of what is in these e-mails, or on social media.
:09:19. > :09:20.But it scares the living daylights out of
:09:21. > :09:28.The big issue for her, whether judges get to be involved.
:09:29. > :09:32.At the moment, if someone wants to tap your telephone,
:09:33. > :09:35.it is the Foreign Secretary or the Home Secretary who decides.
:09:36. > :09:38.Normally in democracies we think there is a role for the judiciary in
:09:39. > :09:43.This has not happened in the UK compared to the US or elsewhere
:09:44. > :09:49.We also need to look to see the extent to which the security
:09:50. > :09:53.agencies seek more power, do they want the power to hack our
:09:54. > :10:01.Something that was considered outrageous when journalists did it,
:10:02. > :10:07.is it now going to be OK for the spooks?
:10:08. > :10:12.When the last Bond film came out three years ago, Parliament was
:10:13. > :10:16.fighting over the so-called snoopers' charter, which would have
:10:17. > :10:22.compelled Internet companies to keep and hand over a lot of our data
:10:23. > :10:25.It was thrown out when Nick Clegg played the role of Dr No
:10:26. > :10:35.A security minded Conservative told me this could be another car crash,
:10:36. > :10:38.because there are enough Tory MPs worried about civil liberties that
:10:39. > :10:41.the government will need Labour support in the Commons,
:10:42. > :10:48.So, will your browsing history remain for Your Eyes Only,
:10:49. > :10:52.do you trust Her Majesty's Secret Service, or are the worriers just
:10:53. > :11:02.Stay tuned for Theresa May's new legislation, coming soon.
:11:03. > :11:10.Hopefully they do not ban bad James Bond puns.
:11:11. > :11:14.Well, James Bond puns are unlikely to be outlawed but on the
:11:15. > :11:16.Andrew Marr Show this morning the Home Secretary, Theresa May
:11:17. > :11:19.did confirm that internet service providers would have to keep
:11:20. > :11:24.She was also asked about whether judges would need to
:11:25. > :11:30.As I say, the three reviews came up with three
:11:31. > :11:35.David Anderson was clear that he thought, partly
:11:36. > :11:37.in relation to future proofing on future legislation, future legal
:11:38. > :11:40.challenges, perhaps, judicial authorisation was the right way
:11:41. > :11:43.The parliamentary committee, the intelligence and security committee
:11:44. > :11:46.of Parliament, said there should be executive authorisation, i.e.
:11:47. > :11:49.the Secretary of State should still do it because
:11:50. > :11:55.We have looked at all of those arguments and listened to what
:11:56. > :11:58.people have said, and we will be bringing forward the government s
:11:59. > :12:02.position on Wednesday, but as I say, I am very clear that what we will
:12:03. > :12:04.bring forward has very strong oversight arrangements.
:12:05. > :12:07.We're joined now by the Shadow Home Office Minister and former Director
:12:08. > :12:13.of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer.
:12:14. > :12:22.Welcome, this is the first time we have had due on. It is. As a general
:12:23. > :12:28.principle do you support stronger powers for the intelligence services
:12:29. > :12:34.in accessing digital data? There is a case for a new law. We have been
:12:35. > :12:39.patching up for a very long time, the law is out of date. It is very
:12:40. > :12:42.important we have no go areas for those involved in serious offending
:12:43. > :12:51.like terrorism and child sexual abuse. And organised crime. And
:12:52. > :12:56.organised crime and when I was DPP we rarely prosecuted without relying
:12:57. > :13:00.on data and this is important for protecting the public. Is judicial
:13:01. > :13:06.as opposed to ministerial approval of warrants to be able to do this,
:13:07. > :13:13.is that a red line issue? It is We have the chance to have a modern,
:13:14. > :13:16.comprehensive law that sets out the powers for law enforcement and the
:13:17. > :13:21.security services and at the same time we have the chance, a historic
:13:22. > :13:27.chance, to get the safeguards right. One of the safeguard is
:13:28. > :13:32.judicial authorisation of intercept roles. There is a big difference
:13:33. > :13:36.between data and content. By content you mean what are people actually
:13:37. > :13:42.saying to each other? That should be signed off by a judge. That is what
:13:43. > :13:48.happens in other countries. That is the real issue. In fairness, Theresa
:13:49. > :13:55.May has backed off from the original plans and faced up to some of the
:13:56. > :14:00.criticism, but it is really a chance now for all of us to agree a
:14:01. > :14:03.framework for the future that is on the one hand giving the authorities
:14:04. > :14:08.the powers they need, but on the other hand entrenching in law the
:14:09. > :14:13.right safeguards and judicial oversight is important in that. We
:14:14. > :14:18.do not know exactly what she is going to say, she has to tell
:14:19. > :14:27.Parliament first, but in the Sunday Times there is the ideal of a 2 tier
:14:28. > :14:34.system that an initial warrant, for example what is my browsing history?
:14:35. > :14:38.The initial one would be issued by the Home Secretary, but if you want
:14:39. > :14:42.to get into the content of what is in these websites and what I have
:14:43. > :14:47.been sending, that needs to be a judge. That is one idea that has
:14:48. > :14:57.been mooted, what is your reaction to that? I am not in favour of took
:14:58. > :15:02.your system. If you're going to go for content, we should go to a judge
:15:03. > :15:07.straightaway. Roughly speaking, there are about 2500 warrants per
:15:08. > :15:11.year for interceptions. That is a very high number for a Home
:15:12. > :15:15.Secretary to deal with. In reality, that means that a lot of the
:15:16. > :15:20.preparation is done by her team for her to look at. There is nothing
:15:21. > :15:24.wrong with that and I am not being critical of the team, but it would
:15:25. > :15:28.be far better if it was done by a judge, independent of any of the
:15:29. > :15:34.operations, independent from all the parties. It is a classically judge
:15:35. > :15:39.test, is it necessary, proportionate, focused on the right
:15:40. > :15:42.person? This is what is done in other countries and this would
:15:43. > :15:47.settle this dispute and allow everybody to move on, the consensus
:15:48. > :15:52.is important. This could be a historic moment if the Home
:15:53. > :15:55.Secretary will allow it. She has stepped in the right direction. If
:15:56. > :16:03.she completes on that by having the right safeguards, that is a prize
:16:04. > :16:07.worth having. However, who would be accountable if a judge refused a
:16:08. > :16:13.warrant, not a politician, what a judge, and as a result, there was a
:16:14. > :16:19.terrorist attack? Who do we hold accountable? One idea would be to
:16:20. > :16:23.have a panel of judges, a commission of judges. There are many judges
:16:24. > :16:28.that are clear to do this sort of work. Individual decisions have to
:16:29. > :16:38.be made. In the main, we hope the decisions are right. We could not
:16:39. > :16:40.hold a judge accountable? If the Home Secretary gets it wrong, she's
:16:41. > :16:42.accountable, she has to appear before Parliament, come on
:16:43. > :16:47.television, it could be the end of her job. The judge would be
:16:48. > :16:50.accountable? We have always had a system of accountability with judges
:16:51. > :16:54.that relies on the right person making the decision in the first
:16:55. > :16:58.place and after the event, investigation and looking at the
:16:59. > :17:01.warrants that had been issued. That system did continue. It is
:17:02. > :17:06.difficult, we are arguing in the dark, but I do not accept the
:17:07. > :17:10.proposition that if you put it to an independent judge that is a lesser
:17:11. > :17:16.safeguard than if you put it to the Home Secretary. These are decisions
:17:17. > :17:19.about how privacy is too precious to be left with the Home Secretary It
:17:20. > :17:23.should be done by a judge. Within these constraints, I take it you
:17:24. > :17:28.think that the Internet browsing history of every computer net device
:17:29. > :17:33.should be kept by Internet providers by 12 months? That is the position
:17:34. > :17:37.that David Anderson, the independent reviewer, proposed. We will have to
:17:38. > :17:43.see what is in the bill, but it needs to be as clearly can just
:17:44. > :17:49.rained -- clearly constrained as possible for as short a time as
:17:50. > :17:57.possible. How much, who accesses it, and what conditions, this is key.
:17:58. > :18:03.Your leader and deputy leader in the Labour Party has been opposed to
:18:04. > :18:07.this type of legislation. Mr Corbyn called previous attempts a massive
:18:08. > :18:13.intrusion into people's lives. What do you say to him? It is a massive
:18:14. > :18:16.intrusion, any interception of Communications is. The question is
:18:17. > :18:21.whether it is justified. I have worked with the police, Lauren
:18:22. > :18:25.Forstmann and the security services for five-year is, when I was
:18:26. > :18:29.Director of Public Prosecutions I know how important it is that we get
:18:30. > :18:38.access to the material we need to get access to, not just in terrorist
:18:39. > :18:41.cases. As you say, you have been director of public and is. How much
:18:42. > :18:46.more difficult would it have been for you to get major convictions in
:18:47. > :18:50.serious cases without both the 004 and 2006 terrorist acts which Mr
:18:51. > :18:55.Corbyn opposed? Very difficult. We use them on a regular basis. I said
:18:56. > :18:59.that when I was in the job. I made the case that we should not lose
:19:00. > :19:05.capability and I am not going to change my mind. It is not just your
:19:06. > :19:08.leader or his deputy, many of the 22 Labour MPs who voted against this
:19:09. > :19:13.previous piece of legislation on this subject area, they are the ones
:19:14. > :19:18.who nominated Mr Corbyn for Nader and they are now in power is the
:19:19. > :19:25.position and influence in your party. Do you see a serious split on
:19:26. > :19:29.this issue? I do not think so. I think Jeremy Corbyn listens to
:19:30. > :19:35.colleagues in policy response to the government. We will make a response
:19:36. > :19:42.when we have heard what the Home Secretary has said. We should seize
:19:43. > :19:47.the opportunity for proper safeguards. In fairness, in the
:19:48. > :19:50.past, Mr Corbyn and others were emphasising the case for safeguards
:19:51. > :19:55.which they did not think were strong enough. To clarify, I have been told
:19:56. > :20:01.that you have squared Mr Corbyn on this. In your view, if it is proper
:20:02. > :20:08.judicial oversight, then Mr Corbyn will go along with those measures? I
:20:09. > :20:12.would not use that expression but we have had a discussion. There is
:20:13. > :20:17.clarity in agreement that proper powers where they are needed, it is
:20:18. > :20:21.right to have proper safeguards He is with you on that? Uncompromising
:20:22. > :20:25.on the safeguards is the position we should adopt, but do not stand in
:20:26. > :20:29.the way of the powers that are necessary for law enforcement and
:20:30. > :20:34.the security services where they are needed. You squared it, because you
:20:35. > :20:41.have got the agreement of the Labour leader on that. That is the position
:20:42. > :20:46.on what we have agreed. As an Andy Burnham biker in the election, how
:20:47. > :20:50.is Jeremy Corbyn doing, better or worse than you expected? Jeremy
:20:51. > :20:58.Corbyn got a massive mandate to lead the party. He has put together a
:20:59. > :21:03.broad team to lead the party. We are developing policy in response to the
:21:04. > :21:07.government's programme. We have a government at the moment that is
:21:08. > :21:10.extreme in the sense that it is pushing through provisions furiously
:21:11. > :21:15.and fast that it odd to be holding back and looking out to be
:21:16. > :21:22.scrutinised more carefully. I think we are doing fairly well in this
:21:23. > :21:27.exercise. You are London MP. London Labour got easily the most votes in
:21:28. > :21:33.the capital at the general election. Many people say this is a Labour
:21:34. > :21:40.city by and large. If Labour does not win the 2016 election for mayor,
:21:41. > :21:46.does that indicate that a general election victory under Mr Corbyn is
:21:47. > :21:50.a long, tough stretch? Listen, this time last year I was about to start
:21:51. > :21:55.a selection exercise to be selected as Frank Dobson's replacement as
:21:56. > :21:59.Labour candidate. We were all predicting what the general election
:22:00. > :22:05.would hold. I am not going to fall into the trap of trying to work out
:22:06. > :22:08.what will happen in 2020. I will say it is really important that Labour
:22:09. > :22:12.win that election. You need to win? We need to win London, local
:22:13. > :22:19.elections and the general election in 2020. It is an important test for
:22:20. > :22:25.Mr Corbyn, London? If you cannot win London, how would you win the
:22:26. > :22:29.country? It is a test for all of us. I accept that. We must win next
:22:30. > :22:34.year, the local election and the general election. We should focus on
:22:35. > :22:38.that. You have said that Jeremy Corbyn is not the Messiah. I do not
:22:39. > :22:43.think that came as a surprise even to those who voted for him or even
:22:44. > :22:50.Jeremy Corbyn. Is he John the Baptist? I said that Jeremy has
:22:51. > :22:55.broken or a space in which we could have a discussion about the project
:22:56. > :23:00.for the future. We had been lacking that. That space is there. Jeremy
:23:01. > :23:05.Corbyn is not the Messiah. He does not have all the answers and if you
:23:06. > :23:14.touch on, you are not healed. I was seeing, the heavy lifting for the
:23:15. > :23:22.future has to be done by all of us. Keir Starmer, thank you. It has been
:23:23. > :23:23.awhile since somebody has led the Labour Party with your name. Thank
:23:24. > :23:25.you. Now, it's been a torrid few weeks
:23:26. > :23:28.for the government on the issue of tax credits with senior
:23:29. > :23:30.Conservatives such as Boris Johnson and David Willets expressing unease
:23:31. > :23:32.about the Chancellor's proposed cuts,
:23:33. > :23:34.unease which turned into a pretty frightful week for the inhabitants
:23:35. > :23:37.of 10 and 11 Downing Street. Peers created a nightmare
:23:38. > :23:39.for the Chancellor by voting, in the House of Lords, to delay tax
:23:40. > :23:42.credit cuts and to compensate Later in the week, 20 Tory
:23:43. > :23:47.backbenchers, including Bernard Jenkin, Heidi Allen and Jacob
:23:48. > :23:50.Rees-Mogg, also sent shivers up Mr Osborne's spine when they backed
:23:51. > :23:52.a motion from Labour's Frank Field calling
:23:53. > :23:54.on the government to mitigate And there may have been sleepless
:23:55. > :23:58.nights for the Prime Minister over at number
:23:59. > :24:01.10, too, with the EU once more He jetted off to Iceland where he
:24:02. > :24:07.courted controversy by appearing to some to be scare-mongering
:24:08. > :24:11.about life outside the EU. Mr Cameron had said
:24:12. > :24:20.the so-called "Norway option" of having access to the EU single
:24:21. > :24:23.market but little say over EU rules wrong for the UK and that he would
:24:24. > :24:26."guard very strongly" against it. Now there's trouble brewing
:24:27. > :24:29.for the government over the spooks', Next week the government will unveil
:24:30. > :24:33.a draft Investigatory Powers Bill which former Lib Dem leader
:24:34. > :24:36.Nick Clegg described as And we're joined now by the former
:24:37. > :24:55.Shadow Home Secretary, David Davis. Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.
:24:56. > :25:01.If you go -- but judicial review, would I do it for you? Almost, it is
:25:02. > :25:07.not judicial review, it is judicial authorisation. I beg your pardon,
:25:08. > :25:12.authorisation of warrants by a judge, not a politician. That is 90%
:25:13. > :25:18.of the way they are. We have too much surveillance because they are
:25:19. > :25:22.not proper constraints or checks. If we got back, I would largely lose
:25:23. > :25:26.interest in the area, because it is no longer a real threat to our
:25:27. > :25:29.liberties. What about your attitude towards what I was speaking about
:25:30. > :25:35.with Keir Starmer, because it was briefed on from the Home Office the
:25:36. > :25:41.2-tier approach, an initial approach to find out what websites I am
:25:42. > :25:45.looking at, that comes from the Home Office, but to dig down to get into
:25:46. > :25:51.the content of what I have been doing, that needs a judge? No. The
:25:52. > :25:54.best guidance on this is the independent reviewer of terrorism
:25:55. > :26:00.legislation, David Anderson, who issued a strong report on this. He
:26:01. > :26:05.said it has got to be independent and ideally overseen by the
:26:06. > :26:09.judiciary. It cannot be a policeman in the office next door, it cannot
:26:10. > :26:14.be a spy in the office next door, or the Home Secretary, it has to be
:26:15. > :26:24.independent. If you do that, you do not need a 2 tier system, you have a
:26:25. > :26:27.uniform approach. Our politicians not more accountable than judges?
:26:28. > :26:29.Any time I have asked a question of any minister on a security matter,
:26:30. > :26:39.even what Lord did you do this under, they never comment. There is
:26:40. > :26:45.no accountability. -- law. Look at America. 9/11. There were clear
:26:46. > :26:53.errors in the handling of intelligence. The head of the CIA
:26:54. > :26:57.went. Nobody paid a price for that. They should not have done in my
:26:58. > :27:02.view, but they did not pay a price. We take a very soft approach to
:27:03. > :27:05.this. Ministers are not really accountable. If they were, and
:27:06. > :27:12.string questions in Parliament, it would be different, but they are
:27:13. > :27:14.not. They may not be accountable enough, but many people will think
:27:15. > :27:21.they are more accountable than judges who have jobs for life. One
:27:22. > :27:27.minister said, judicial oversight of interception warrants is a bad idea,
:27:28. > :27:32.he did not mean oversight, he meant authorisation. If a bomb gets
:27:33. > :27:36.through because a judge refused to sign a warrant, what will happen?
:27:37. > :27:43.There is a much better way of doing it. Anderson points this out. Also,
:27:44. > :27:48.the other important report on this points this out. You have a proper
:27:49. > :27:54.oversight procedure as well. It backs up things. You have judges
:27:55. > :28:00.that do it, a single panel. They look in retrospect? Yes, add
:28:01. > :28:04.everything that is done, before or after any mistakes. They find them.
:28:05. > :28:09.The aim is to protect the public, that is aim. At the moment the Home
:28:10. > :28:13.Secretary does about ten of these warrants in a working day. It is
:28:14. > :28:19.impossible forward person to do this. It is bad practice, bad
:28:20. > :28:24.managerially, bad legally and bad in terms of counterterrorism. People
:28:25. > :28:30.who take your view of the quarter are lies, Canada, Australia, the
:28:31. > :28:35.United States, New Zealand also of judicial authorisation of warrants.
:28:36. > :28:41.I was looking at the figures, US judges approved 99.6% of all
:28:42. > :28:46.warrants. In the end, it makes no difference. The warrants are given.
:28:47. > :28:51.The warrants are given. The US Judges have been pulled up on this,
:28:52. > :28:56.it has been tightened up. They have somebody to put the other case which
:28:57. > :29:00.they did not have before. If you have a decent system, you do not
:29:01. > :29:04.take a bad warrant. You do not go to them with the expectation of being
:29:05. > :29:08.turned on, you make sure you have the right person at the rate basis.
:29:09. > :29:12.The percentage does not tell you much. If you do not get judicial
:29:13. > :29:17.authorisation, will you challenge this bill in the courts as you did
:29:18. > :29:21.the last bill? No, because the last one went through the Commons in the
:29:22. > :29:23.courts as you did the last bill No, because the last one went through
:29:24. > :29:27.the Commons on Wednesday it had not been properly tested, so I thought,
:29:28. > :29:31.let's tested elsewhere. Parliament is a better test than court if it is
:29:32. > :29:35.allowed to do the job. I do not think this bill will get through the
:29:36. > :29:39.Commons or the House of Lords without judicial authorisation. Even
:29:40. > :29:43.if the government comes out without it this week, it will have to change
:29:44. > :29:48.again? There is a new consensus on this across the board, across the
:29:49. > :29:52.experts, the Spriggs, the parties and the Houses of Parliament. The
:29:53. > :29:56.Prime Minister consistently claims that he rules nothing out in Europe,
:29:57. > :30:00.but is it not the case that by rubbishing the Norwegian option as
:30:01. > :30:14.he did last week, it is clear he is determined to stay" Mac -- to stay.
:30:15. > :30:28.He wants to get an outcome which allows him to stay in. Attacking the
:30:29. > :30:34.Norwegian option is irrelevant. Sure, he wants to be able to
:30:35. > :30:40.negotiate to stay in. But the EU is in crisis. Many people on your side
:30:41. > :30:44.say it is such a crisis at the moment that a British exit could be
:30:45. > :30:50.a catalyst for the whole demise of the EU project. So why doesn't the
:30:51. > :30:54.Prime Minister make much tougher demands as the price for staying in?
:30:55. > :31:00.It would be a catastrophe if Europe was to lose us. He is caught in a
:31:01. > :31:06.conundrum. I broadly would agree with that argument. He should make
:31:07. > :31:10.extremely tough demands. Tell the British public it is a negotiation,
:31:11. > :31:16.you will not get everything, but we will put the outcome to you. The
:31:17. > :31:21.problem is any failure to achieve a complete success would be used as a
:31:22. > :31:26.weapon to beat him with and therefore he will aim lower in the
:31:27. > :31:33.hope to gain 100% success. It is the wrong analysis. The high bar with an
:31:34. > :31:38.acceptance you will not get everything would have been smarter.
:31:39. > :31:44.Like the trade union leader asking for five quid a week more and you
:31:45. > :31:49.settle for four? Exactly. When I negotiated with the European Union
:31:50. > :31:55.we try to get tough demands, but we did not get everything because we
:31:56. > :32:04.were outnumbered, 14-1. But here for the very reason you said Europe is
:32:05. > :32:09.no longer in a strong position. Its primary experiment the euro is in a
:32:10. > :32:13.terrible state and we have got the stronger argument. Is it not
:32:14. > :32:17.inevitable, given that, that when we finally get to know what the Prime
:32:18. > :32:23.Minister is asking for in some detail, and we may get that in
:32:24. > :32:29.December, is it not the truth that a huge chunk of your party, made the
:32:30. > :32:34.most of them, is going to be deeply disappointed by the paucity of his
:32:35. > :32:41.demands? I do not think so. The truth of the matter is that
:32:42. > :32:46.everybody has got a condition to the fact the demands will not be
:32:47. > :32:50.substantial, constitutional changes, and people are changing their
:32:51. > :32:56.position to whatever stance they want to take. One thing is that
:32:57. > :33:00.unlike Maastricht there is the option of a referendum. They have
:33:01. > :33:05.got that option to exercise and they will try and get a resolution. That
:33:06. > :33:11.will pacify people. Let me come to tax credits. Should Mr Osborne tweak
:33:12. > :33:16.his tax credit plan to make it more acceptable, or should he in effect
:33:17. > :33:23.junk it and go back to the drawing board? Two things. He needs to
:33:24. > :33:28.achieve a reform of tax credits It is a bad system, it is too
:33:29. > :33:34.expensive. He also needs to achieve fiscal balance by 2020. Those two
:33:35. > :33:41.things are requirements. But what he does not need to do is do it next
:33:42. > :33:45.year. That is the issue. Along with Frank Field I sponsored a debate on
:33:46. > :33:48.Thursday in the Commons which got amazing uniformity and what came out
:33:49. > :33:53.of that was the feeling that what ever you do, so long as it does not
:33:54. > :33:59.penalised the working poor, particularly dependent, then we will
:34:00. > :34:04.go with it. That is the criteria. That is more than a tweak. It is a
:34:05. > :34:10.lot more than a tweak. If you are a single parent working and raising
:34:11. > :34:17.two kids, you could lose ?2000. You cannot afford to lose a pound. What
:34:18. > :34:23.we will do is a lot more than a tweak, but it is getting to the same
:34:24. > :34:28.place in 2020. The financial markets will accept that. They will say it
:34:29. > :34:33.is the endgame that matters. Thank you for being with us today.
:34:34. > :34:35.It's coming up to 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:34:36. > :34:38.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:34:39. > :34:41.Coming up here in twenty minutes, the week whead.
:34:42. > :34:47.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:34:48. > :34:52.A little bit later, diesel is responsible for nearly half
:34:53. > :34:57.The mayor is urged to do more about it.
:34:58. > :35:00.I'm joined by the MPs with the smallest majorities in the capital.
:35:01. > :35:04.Gavin Barwell held on to Croydon Central by 165 votes, and Rupa Huq,
:35:05. > :35:08.Labour MP for Ealing Central and Acton, has a majority of 27 .
:35:09. > :35:18.First off, the seven members of the the government's new
:35:19. > :35:20.infrastructure commission were named this week and, for London,
:35:21. > :35:23.the hopes and expectations are for progress on a second Crossrail.
:35:24. > :35:27.TFL have just published their latest plans for the route.
:35:28. > :35:32.The southern bit still planned to run from Clapham Junction to
:35:33. > :35:36.Wimbledon but now stopping at Balham rather than Tooting Broadway.
:35:37. > :35:38.The estimated cost at this stage is a cool ?27 billion.
:35:39. > :35:43.Half of this is being sought from central government,
:35:44. > :35:47.Presumably neither of you are going to say,
:35:48. > :35:50.this is not a good idea, but how likely is it, Gavin, do you think?
:35:51. > :35:53.The mood music looks good, we had a minister saying it was
:35:54. > :35:58.The government wants it to happen but the decision
:35:59. > :36:01.on funding will be coming out as part of the budget early next year.
:36:02. > :36:05.This is a key infrastructure project for London.
:36:06. > :36:07.As the city's population grows so quickly, it is so important
:36:08. > :36:10.in terms of housing, the health service, the transport system, that
:36:11. > :36:15.A new infrastructure commission is just the kind of body George Osborne
:36:16. > :36:19.and the Conservatives think will get this delivered.
:36:20. > :36:25.Andrew Adonis is someone who has resigned the Labour whip
:36:26. > :36:28.in order to do these big infrastructure projects.
:36:29. > :36:35.We want things for our nation to develop.
:36:36. > :36:39.The cost benefit analysis of this are that it will affect all
:36:40. > :36:41.parts of the United Kingdom, as far as Scotland,
:36:42. > :36:49.If a government wants to do something,
:36:50. > :36:55.Some of these projects are very long-term, from the inception
:36:56. > :36:58.of the idea, taking it right through to construction and opening.
:36:59. > :37:01.You want to get as much cross-party agreement as possible so taking them
:37:02. > :37:05.out of politics and getting as much agreement over the principle
:37:06. > :37:11.As a Croydon MP, I would like to see a branch
:37:12. > :37:15.It takes some of that tension out of it.
:37:16. > :37:19.The government can say, this commission has said something.
:37:20. > :37:21.So just like Heathrow and the Davies commission, having predicted
:37:22. > :37:24.and said that, there is no excuse for the government not to go ahead.
:37:25. > :37:28.I am not going to comment on what the decision is going to be,
:37:29. > :37:31.but the government needs to reflect on the Davies Commission and get
:37:32. > :37:34.If you're going to have a commission like this, making a
:37:35. > :37:37.decision like the Davies Commission has done and there is no reason
:37:38. > :37:41.for thinking the model is different, do you go with what it says?
:37:42. > :37:43.Would it be right to go ahead with Heathrow expanision.
:37:44. > :37:47.Some of these things, the timings of them,
:37:48. > :37:50.it was pushed to the long grass till after the election, conveniently.
:37:51. > :37:54.People in West London do want to know what is going on, but they
:37:55. > :38:00.You oppose Heathrow expansion so if an infrastructure commission comes
:38:01. > :38:05.forward and says Heathrow expansion is the best thing, what do you do?
:38:06. > :38:08.I think we should take soundings in the round and listen to many
:38:09. > :38:11.I can see you need to find out more about how
:38:12. > :38:14.the commission will work long-term, and I suppose long-term is the key.
:38:15. > :38:17.In the wake of the VW emission test scandal
:38:18. > :38:19.questions are being asked about the diesel pollution which puts the
:38:20. > :38:23.The mayor is being urged to do more about it.
:38:24. > :38:39.Here at the testing centre they check emissions for scores of diesel
:38:40. > :38:42.vehicles every day. The VW scandal came about when the German
:38:43. > :38:49.manufacturer installed cheaper devices. According to staff here the
:38:50. > :38:55.UK rules are so lax that regardless of cheating those same VWs would
:38:56. > :38:59.pass a British MOT with ease. We do not have the same emission zones
:39:00. > :39:05.that they have in America and this is where the scandal came out. They
:39:06. > :39:10.were covering an American state and one of these bolts on an engine came
:39:11. > :39:14.into the yard and it would pass But change is on its way and in 202
:39:15. > :39:18.London will see the introduction of the ultralow emission zone. All but
:39:19. > :39:27.the cleanest vehicles will be charged a fee to drive into the
:39:28. > :39:30.congestion charge area. But according to the Liberal Democrats,
:39:31. > :39:38.the unreliability of emissions tests could actually be big polluters The
:39:39. > :39:42.Volkswagen scandal highlighted this so we need to make measures now to
:39:43. > :39:48.ensure the only vehicles entering that zone in 2020 are absolutely
:39:49. > :39:52.zero emission or ultralow emission vehicles. The simple answer is to
:39:53. > :39:56.say we will not allow diesel vehicles into the zone. The Met is
:39:57. > :40:02.making efforts to reduce the number of diesel buses. This one runs on
:40:03. > :40:07.hydrogen gas and gives out nothing more harmful than water. These are
:40:08. > :40:11.currently the only hydrogen buses operating in the UK, but there are
:40:12. > :40:19.only eight of them on the road at the moment. It is 0.1% of the bus
:40:20. > :40:24.fleet. Whether the other 99.9% is as clear as this is a different
:40:25. > :40:29.question. By 2020, roughly a third of London's buses will be hybrid or
:40:30. > :40:34.electric and the majority will be diesel. Questions over another key
:40:35. > :40:39.City Hall transport plan. A huge programme of tunnel building. The
:40:40. > :40:43.GLA have identified 70 roads that could be sunk underground, including
:40:44. > :40:47.the South circular and an extra river crossing in East London. To
:40:48. > :40:53.judge the impact we met up with Doctor Gary Fuller from Kings
:40:54. > :40:58.College London's air-quality network who compiles the official data on
:40:59. > :41:02.the capital's air-quality. As a control we start by taking a reading
:41:03. > :41:09.on a fairly typical London street with passable air-quality. 20-2
:41:10. > :41:18.micrograms per cubic metre, which is average. So, if 20 is normal, we
:41:19. > :41:21.test out what it is like underground in the rather high to tunnel. It
:41:22. > :41:26.does not take long before the readings rocket. It is ten times
:41:27. > :41:32.greater than what we were when we were on the housing estate. There is
:41:33. > :41:36.nowhere outside in London that you would see concentrations as high as
:41:37. > :41:42.this in the town. Amazingly, we found we were not the only people
:41:43. > :41:48.using the tunnel on foot. Roughly a mile long it is a 15 minute walk and
:41:49. > :41:53.before long the readings hit 40 , 20 times worse than on a normal street.
:41:54. > :42:00.The problem is to do with what comes out the back of a car when they are
:42:01. > :42:03.being driven. We know all of these vehicles are emitting somewhere
:42:04. > :42:09.between six and seven times of nitrogen dioxide pollution in the
:42:10. > :42:17.real world compared to the tests. We hope cars will get better, but we
:42:18. > :42:22.have to wait and see. With one in 12 deaths in parts of London now linked
:42:23. > :42:26.to air pollution the questions raised by the VW scandal will only
:42:27. > :42:36.add pressure on City Hall's efforts to clean up our air. We can speak to
:42:37. > :42:46.the Deputy Mayor. We heard in the report about the testing regime and
:42:47. > :42:50.the fact that the VW could cheat a test in the US, but it does not need
:42:51. > :42:55.to hear because it would pass with ease. Does the testing need to be
:42:56. > :42:58.more stringent? We have been calling on the EU to tighten up their
:42:59. > :43:11.emission standards for years. It is worth saying if the ones that had
:43:12. > :43:15.been caught cheating with the BW had met the conditions that we had been
:43:16. > :43:21.promised by the European Union, we would have been within the European
:43:22. > :43:26.Union's limit values now, but we are a decade away, which shows the
:43:27. > :43:31.effect of having a generation of diesel cars. Should we have a
:43:32. > :43:38.tougher MOT testing regime? In the European Union you would have it
:43:39. > :43:42.approved everywhere and the government would fight itself in
:43:43. > :43:49.legal trouble if they could say you could not have X, Y and Z car. It
:43:50. > :43:58.would not be practical, would you like to see us do it?
:43:59. > :44:00.We need to see real-world driving tests as soon
:44:01. > :44:04.as possible to ensure the new cars that come on are as clean as they
:44:05. > :44:07.can be, it is also very important that VW goes back and retrofits all
:44:08. > :44:10.of the Euro 4 and 5 diesels that have been caught cheating.
:44:11. > :44:12.Do you recognise the figures from King's College London,
:44:13. > :44:15.emissions are on average seven times higher than the actual test
:44:16. > :44:19.We have seen for the Euro 4 and 5 diesels,
:44:20. > :44:23.which are the ones that are the last generation, they are often an order
:44:24. > :44:26.of magnitude out on the test cycles and could even be ten times more.
:44:27. > :44:29.Do the Department of Transport use a slightly lower rate, do they?
:44:30. > :44:31.Would you like to see the Department of Transport change
:44:32. > :44:36.It is very difficult to go back to say to people who bought
:44:37. > :44:39.their cars in good faith believing them to be clean, because they were
:44:40. > :44:46.And then go back and say, I am sorry, even though your car is
:44:47. > :44:50.working properly, at least as far as the manufacturer is concerned,
:44:51. > :44:53.it now fails an MOT because it is not within its test cycle.
:44:54. > :44:57.Would that be a reasonable thing to say to the millions of car owners?
:44:58. > :45:00.It is different with VW where they cheated the test and they need to
:45:01. > :45:04.If there is uncertainty about how rigourous the testing is,
:45:05. > :45:09.there could be quite a few high polluting types
:45:10. > :45:12.of vehicle that are still allowed to come in, even when you introduce
:45:13. > :45:19.Looking forward to Euro 6, going forward from now,
:45:20. > :45:21.rather than looking backwards, we need to see that real-world
:45:22. > :45:28.The silver lining of the VW scandal is it looks like the commission will
:45:29. > :45:32.bring forward that real world driving test sooner than they might
:45:33. > :45:34.have otherwise have done, which means we could have cleaner cars
:45:35. > :45:38.than we thought we were going to have when we did the modelling
:45:39. > :45:42.It means the outcome for the Ulez could well be better than we
:45:43. > :45:45.You have heard what Stephen Knight, the Liberal Democrats, say.
:45:46. > :45:48.You should be moving to ban all diesel as soon as possible.
:45:49. > :45:51.The problem with that is when it comes to heavy vehicles
:45:52. > :45:53.and vans, there is no other technology on the market.
:45:54. > :46:05.So to say to every van owner and every HGV driver, I am sorry,
:46:06. > :46:08.you can no longer drive in Central London, that could have
:46:09. > :46:11.By 2020, you could give them a lot of warning.
:46:12. > :46:14.These technologies are not yet on the market at a scale,
:46:15. > :46:17.at a price which is reasonable for HGVs at all, and frankly,
:46:18. > :46:21.The point is, the Ulez, we brought it in
:46:22. > :46:25.and I am sure that in due course it can be ratcheted up over time in the
:46:26. > :46:28.way that the low emission zone has captured more and more vehicles
:46:29. > :46:31.You bring it in in 2020 for all vehicles for Euro 6 diesel.
:46:32. > :46:35.But perhaps five, ten years further down the line, you can ratchet it up
:46:36. > :46:38.in the way that Stephen is talking about, but doing that in just five
:46:39. > :46:44.This Ultra Low Emission Zone was promised two years ago.
:46:45. > :46:48.It is not clear whether the new much trumpted
:46:49. > :46:54.I think it will, some of the stuff I have seen.
:46:55. > :46:57.Even that is a diesel emitting vehicle.
:46:58. > :47:00.So the new Routemaster will not have to pay even though it
:47:01. > :47:04.The first thing it is worth saying is that the Ulez is
:47:05. > :47:09.Yes, it is five years away, but when it comes to our bus fleet, because
:47:10. > :47:12.bus routes are letted all the time, we are letting only zero emission
:47:13. > :47:17.single deck buses and they will be appearing very soon, and only Euro 6
:47:18. > :47:20.hybrid double-decker buses as well. The mayor announced just
:47:21. > :47:25.this week the final decision about taxis, that all new taxis
:47:26. > :47:28.from 2018 need to be zero emission capable in Central London.
:47:29. > :47:34.I think everyone watching this programme will want to see it go
:47:35. > :47:36.faster still because air pollution costs thousands of lives every year,
:47:37. > :47:39.but I think the mayor has made real progress.
:47:40. > :47:42.You're looking at half the number of Londoners that now live in areas
:47:43. > :47:46.that exceed the limits compared to when he came to office in 2008.
:47:47. > :47:49.There are big decisions he has taken, but it is a difficult balance
:47:50. > :47:53.because of course we want to go faster, but you have got to give
:47:54. > :47:55.the owners of vehicles time to get the new technology.
:47:56. > :47:58.So it is a question of moving at the right speed to see
:47:59. > :48:02.That is all the time we have on this item.
:48:03. > :48:04.Matthew, thank you very much for coming in.
:48:05. > :48:08.A report by the London Assembly revealed that in parts
:48:09. > :48:11.of the capital, cases of tuberculosis are at levels higher
:48:12. > :48:20.Tuberculosis, a disease many think from a bygone
:48:21. > :48:24.era and one brought under control in the UK, or so you might think.
:48:25. > :48:29.I was absolutely shocked when I found out I had caught TB.
:48:30. > :48:31.I thought it was a thing of the past.
:48:32. > :48:35.According to a report released by the London Assembly,
:48:36. > :48:39.there were over 2,500 cases of tuberculosis in London last year.
:48:40. > :48:43.For over a decade, London has been the TB capital
:48:44. > :48:46.of western Europe with boroughs like Newham and Brent having a
:48:47. > :48:50.higher threshold than Iraq and Yemen and similar levels to Eritrea.
:48:51. > :48:53.There are multiple causes for these high levels, according to the author
:48:54. > :48:59.Tuberculous is a barometer on the inequalities of society.
:49:00. > :49:05.It affects people who are most vulnerable, the homeless,
:49:06. > :49:08.the drug addicts, people who have very little status and a derepressed
:49:09. > :49:14.However, the mayor's health adviser believes
:49:15. > :49:20.About 80% of people with tuberculosis are non-UK born.
:49:21. > :49:23.They have probably contracted that in their countries of origin
:49:24. > :49:28.and it lights up again maybe within five years of being in the capital.
:49:29. > :49:32.The report calls for screening and the BCG vaccination to be made more
:49:33. > :49:39.Whilst the consensus is that TB is closely connected to housing
:49:40. > :49:42.and deprivation, with four of every five sufferers in
:49:43. > :49:49.the capital being born outside the UK, is it a migration issue too
:49:50. > :49:53.Rupa Huq, your borough, Ealing, one of the highest, fourth,
:49:54. > :49:56.fifth highest, 62 per 100,000, right up there, higher than some
:49:57. > :50:04.To make the automatic link between migration and TB is...
:50:05. > :50:06.When I used to teach research methods,
:50:07. > :50:11.If you have two things at once, one did not necessarily make
:50:12. > :50:16.It is a social deprivation thing, when you have overcrowding,
:50:17. > :50:19.poor housing, which was mentioned in the film, all these things at once.
:50:20. > :50:25.People with poor immune systems get it.
:50:26. > :50:28.As the film said, everyone thought it had gone a long time ago.
:50:29. > :50:31.It is a Victorian disease, but other Victorian conditions are coming
:50:32. > :50:45.80%, they think, and if you look at your borough, is it 45%
:50:46. > :50:52.Lots of them Indian, a large Pakistani...
:50:53. > :50:54.Is there a correlation, with them coming over,
:50:55. > :50:57.with a kind of latent TB, and then it is sometimes developing.
:50:58. > :50:59.I looked at the ward by ward analysis.
:51:00. > :51:04.My constituency is the least affected.
:51:05. > :51:09.It is the kind of thing that can linger for years.
:51:10. > :51:12.There's nothing wrong with saying it is a migrant issue if it is.
:51:13. > :51:20.A large population of the world have latent TB.
:51:21. > :51:22.If you have people coming into the country
:51:23. > :51:25.from all over the world, some of those people will have latent TB.
:51:26. > :51:29.It is also true that people that have low immune systems,
:51:30. > :51:35.living in poor conditions, are more likely to get the disease.
:51:36. > :51:37.Both of the things that were said are true.
:51:38. > :51:44.The number of cases was about 400 lower in 2014 than in 2013.
:51:45. > :51:47.Very importantly, the number of drug resistant cases halved.
:51:48. > :51:53.In this day and age, in the capital city, where we know we have rough
:51:54. > :51:56.sleeping, people living in poverty, yes, there may be a factor or
:51:57. > :51:59.Do you not feel slightly ashamed of the capital?
:52:00. > :52:03.It is a serious problem that we have to get on top of.
:52:04. > :52:06.That is partly about screening when people come into the country, but it
:52:07. > :52:09.is also about health services within the UK and tackling the underlying
:52:10. > :52:14.We've got to look at all of those issues together to solve this.
:52:15. > :52:17.It is a false argument to say it is one or the other.
:52:18. > :52:19.It is suggested that there is fairly fragmented and not consistent
:52:20. > :52:21.treatment, depending on what borough you are in.
:52:22. > :52:24.Are you happy with the identification and treatment?
:52:25. > :52:27.It is not routinely screened for it, as far as I know.
:52:28. > :52:30.The BCG vaccine, there was a problem with that a few weeks ago.
:52:31. > :52:37.But it is on the down, the trend is downward.
:52:38. > :52:40.I think it is a great piece of work that my colleague,
:52:41. > :52:43.But there is not a uniform London wide way.
:52:44. > :52:46.You could argue that does not make economic or health sense, to have
:52:47. > :52:50.The BCG is only given in those boroughs with high incidence.
:52:51. > :52:52.In my borough, Croydon, we do not have it,
:52:53. > :52:55.because the incidences across the borough are not high, but there are
:52:56. > :52:58.pockets in the north of the borough, where there are higher incidences.
:52:59. > :53:00.There are ways we can improve the response across
:53:01. > :53:05.Lots of viewers will be shocked to learn that this disease that we
:53:06. > :53:08.thought we had dealt with is back in the capital.
:53:09. > :53:18.Time now for the rest of the political news in 60 Seconds.
:53:19. > :53:21.The government has handed power for running day-to-day services
:53:22. > :53:25.at Tower Hamlets back to the local authority and its elected mayor
:53:26. > :53:27.The government took control of the borough after claims
:53:28. > :53:29.of inappropriate financial practices under the former mayor,
:53:30. > :53:38.RMT union bosses have announced a 48-hour strike that will hit
:53:39. > :53:42.the Docklands Light Railway next week, starting on Tuesday.
:53:43. > :53:45.Craig Mackey, the deputy commissioner of the
:53:46. > :53:48.Met Police has warned that the era of routine patrols by "bobbies
:53:49. > :53:56.He said the anticipated ?1 billion cut in funding could
:53:57. > :54:02.Plans for a mosque in East London that would have been bigger than
:54:03. > :54:06.St Paul's Cathedral have been turned down.
:54:07. > :54:07.Newham Council initially rejected the plan but now
:54:08. > :54:11.the government has ruled against the mosque, backed by the group Tablighi
:54:12. > :54:21.Jamaat, on the grounds it would mean losing space to build new homes
:54:22. > :54:25.In the time we have got left, this policing situation,
:54:26. > :54:30.we are seeing deputy commissioners, commissioners, other senior
:54:31. > :54:33.officers consistently warning of the potential impact and that we
:54:34. > :54:36.Rupa Huq, are you worried about that?
:54:37. > :54:41.I have spoken to our chief superintendent and to people at both
:54:42. > :54:46.Ealing and Acton police station and there is a sense of demoralisation
:54:47. > :54:49.that the thin blue line is getting thinner and God forbid that anything
:54:50. > :54:52.like the 2011 riots were to hit Ealing again. People are being
:54:53. > :54:58.They would not be able to respond, is that what your chief
:54:59. > :55:04.People from all over the force at all levels are saying they are
:55:05. > :55:08.There are a range of issues, and even in my inbox,
:55:09. > :55:11.I keep getting e-mails from Hanger Hill ward, our least good
:55:12. > :55:15.ward in Ealing, for Labour, and lots of people are disgusted
:55:16. > :55:25.Talking of riots, in Croydon, in your constituency, badly affected.
:55:26. > :55:28.Would you share that concern about what people are saying
:55:29. > :55:33.We need to put on record that numbers have been
:55:34. > :55:36.I did meet with the commissioner recently to talk
:55:37. > :55:39.I think he would say there is potential
:55:40. > :55:42.for the Met to make further savings but it is very important to me
:55:43. > :55:46.as a constituency MP that we retain the number of officers on the beat.
:55:47. > :55:48.They have cut down on senior management and got rid
:55:49. > :55:52.It is important to you, but it is not going to happen,
:55:53. > :55:56.We do not have the numbers, let's wait and see.
:55:57. > :55:58.Have you both had letters from the Met recently?
:55:59. > :56:02.Have you had these lobbying letters, some MPs have received letters
:56:03. > :56:06.Potentially one billion, but certainly ?800 million-?1
:56:07. > :56:10.They have done 600 over the last few years.
:56:11. > :56:12.Let me explain where that figure comes from.
:56:13. > :56:15.That extrapolation is on the assumption that
:56:16. > :56:18.the police got a 40% reduction in their grant because the Treasury has
:56:19. > :56:24.If it was 25%, it would be 800, still a lot of money.
:56:25. > :56:27.They asked them to do that in 2 10, but the actual reduction was not
:56:28. > :56:31.Yes, of course, if the reduction was that big, those would be
:56:32. > :56:34.the numbers but let's wait and see the result of the spending review,
:56:35. > :56:39.To me, there is potential for the Met to make further savings but
:56:40. > :56:42.in Croydon, I am passionate about retaining the officers we have.
:56:43. > :56:45.Some people feel like the Met are doing just what everyone
:56:46. > :56:48.does ahead of a really tight comprehensive spending review.
:56:49. > :56:52.They are just presenting the worst scenario, shroud waving.
:56:53. > :56:56.People from within the force tell me that they have
:56:57. > :57:03.As I say, this is from the one-time party of law and order
:57:04. > :57:07.You've got to accept the fact that the mayor has protected
:57:08. > :57:10.Elsewhere in the country, we have seen reductions, but police officer
:57:11. > :57:15.He got help because of the Olympics, he got help to be re-elected.
:57:16. > :57:18.The crime data, it is never perfect, all constituents want crime lower,
:57:19. > :57:21.but there is an encouraging picture on that.
:57:22. > :57:24.I am not saying it is shroud waving at all.
:57:25. > :57:27.People are right to raise concerns about the implications,
:57:28. > :57:30.but let's wait and see what George Osborne says.
:57:31. > :57:35.They are clearly looking at the worst case scenario,
:57:36. > :57:37.if it was the steepest cut that could possibly happen.
:57:38. > :57:46.To you both, thank you very much indeed.
:57:47. > :57:51.Now, each year the House of Commons holds a debate to coincide with
:57:52. > :57:57.But should the same courtesy be extended to men?
:57:58. > :58:00.That was the question posed by the Conservative MP Philip Davies
:58:01. > :58:03.when he appeared in front of the backbench business committee
:58:04. > :58:08.His suggestion was met with disbelief by the
:58:09. > :58:13.The opportunity for men to raise issues that are
:58:14. > :58:25.Just to give you a flavour, Mr Chairman, of the type of things
:58:26. > :58:29.which may come up and which will be part of international men's day
:58:30. > :58:32.I am not entirely sure why it is so humorous, but to discuss issues such
:58:33. > :58:34.as men's shorter life expectancy, wider male health issues,
:58:35. > :58:37.many of which go unreported through embarrassment of men to go along
:58:38. > :58:42.You'll have to excuse me for laughing but the idea that men
:58:43. > :58:45.don't have the opportunity to ask questions in this place is a frankly
:58:46. > :58:50.laughable thing and I say this as the only woman on this committee.
:58:51. > :58:53.The idea that this chamber, these Houses, both of them,
:58:54. > :59:01.in any way reflect gender equality is to me a laughable thing.
:59:02. > :59:07.And Philip Davies joins me now from Leeds.
:59:08. > :59:18.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Jess Phillips is right, Parliament is
:59:19. > :59:22.still dominated by men? Business is dominated by men. Most power centres
:59:23. > :59:27.are dominated by men, you do not need a separate day or debate? There
:59:28. > :59:32.is a difference between how many men are in Parliament and the debate
:59:33. > :59:35.about men's issues. There are serious issues such as the high
:59:36. > :59:46.suicide rate among men, the underachievement of boys in school,
:59:47. > :59:47.the low life expectancy of men, the underreporting of health issues like
:59:48. > :59:49.testicular cancer, the underreporting of male victims of
:59:50. > :59:53.domestic violence. You could bring that up at any time, there are not
:59:54. > :00:01.many in the Commons, to bring that up whenever you want? -- there are
:00:02. > :00:07.enough men. There are few opportunities to bring up these
:00:08. > :00:10.particular issues. There are few times when these issues have been
:00:11. > :00:14.debated. Lots of women are concerned about these issues. Lots of women
:00:15. > :00:18.are married to men, they have fathers and sons. These things
:00:19. > :00:25.should be important to everybody. These are serious issues.
:00:26. > :00:34.Are you surprised at the appalling abuse that clip about? I am not
:00:35. > :00:38.suggesting you did it, but are you surprised at the abuse Jess Phillips
:00:39. > :00:43.found herself on the end of? I very much hope she has reported some of
:00:44. > :00:48.these people to the police. We have a democracy and a debate and she is
:00:49. > :00:53.perfectly entitled to her opinion. I do not agree with them, but she is
:00:54. > :00:57.entitled to her view. Maybe you need a debate about men not behaving in
:00:58. > :01:03.that way over something they do not agree with? We should have debate
:01:04. > :01:07.about what we should do with these morons who contact people in the way
:01:08. > :01:11.they contacted Jess. It is unacceptable, I hope she goes to the
:01:12. > :01:17.police, but that should not take away from the importance of the
:01:18. > :01:23.issues that I want to debate on International Man's Day. You spoke
:01:24. > :01:30.for 90 minutes this week on a bill that would have allowed carers, just
:01:31. > :01:34.carers, to have free parking at hospitals. You talked it out for 90
:01:35. > :01:39.minutes soak it did not get any further. Why did you do that? I do
:01:40. > :01:42.not know if you have read my speed, but I made it clear why I did not
:01:43. > :01:48.support the bill and what might objections were and they are all
:01:49. > :01:53.there on public record for people to read. It would mean higher car
:01:54. > :01:57.parking costs for other people like disabled people and other vulnerable
:01:58. > :02:01.groups. It would mean a reduction in revenue for hospitals which would
:02:02. > :02:08.mean they would not be able to employ as many doctors or nurses.
:02:09. > :02:15.Why should carers...? They do not... They do have to pay. There
:02:16. > :02:21.are many hospitals that do not charge carers for parking, or
:02:22. > :02:26.hospitals are free to not charge carers from parking if they choose.
:02:27. > :02:31.My view is it is best described at a local level. I have got the picture
:02:32. > :02:35.of you in June holding up a banner and speaking up for carers. I do not
:02:36. > :02:44.think this is what they thought you should be speaking up about. You
:02:45. > :02:50.have not read my speech. I have read bits of it, 90 minutes is a long
:02:51. > :02:56.time. Read it all because I spoke up warmly about carers. OK. Do not say
:02:57. > :03:01.OK, I spoke about things that would have been far better for carers than
:03:02. > :03:07.that ill thought through piece of legislation. If you think I did not
:03:08. > :03:12.speak up for carers, that is a complete and utter lie. Let me move
:03:13. > :03:18.on to Mr Cameron and the European Union. He is now warning about life
:03:19. > :03:24.outside the EU and an associate tight relationship with the EU. Is
:03:25. > :03:28.he really pre-empting the renegotiation? He has really made
:03:29. > :03:36.his mind that he has to do what ever it takes to stay in. Is that a fair
:03:37. > :03:40.conclusion? Yes, absolutely. He will get next to nothing from his
:03:41. > :03:45.negotiation, but will come back and say it was a great triumph and based
:03:46. > :03:49.on that we should stay in the EU. I have never yet come across any Prime
:03:50. > :03:54.Minister in history that has come back from a renegotiation and said,
:03:55. > :03:58.I got nothing out of it, but I did my best. They all claim it is a
:03:59. > :04:05.triumph and we all know it is not going go anywhere. He will campaign
:04:06. > :04:07.for us to stay in. My job is to tell people that any claim of
:04:08. > :04:16.re-negotiation has been a complete farce. On Europe what is the logic
:04:17. > :04:20.other than a sense of panic that the Prime Minister goes to Iceland and
:04:21. > :04:26.talks about the Norwegian option and does not mention the Icelandic
:04:27. > :04:32.option because 80% of the Icelandic people like it. The logic is he can
:04:33. > :04:36.drive a wedge into the anti-EU movement by bringing to our
:04:37. > :04:41.attention that they cannot agree on what being out means. Does that mean
:04:42. > :04:45.being completely out, Donal Meech and model, the Swiss model, a
:04:46. > :04:51.mythical third or fourth option which Britain negotiates for
:04:52. > :04:58.itself? The more the Cameron talks about it, even though it is quite
:04:59. > :05:03.specious, the more attention he brings to the fact that being in
:05:04. > :05:08.means something quite clear. Does it? We do not know which way the
:05:09. > :05:11.eurozone is going to go in the future and Angela Merkel and
:05:12. > :05:17.President Hollande have been talking about greater integration in the
:05:18. > :05:20.eurozone. We do not know what it means in five years' time, but if
:05:21. > :05:25.you voted yes to stay in, you know what the world would be like the
:05:26. > :05:31.following day, but you would not know what it would be like if you
:05:32. > :05:37.voted to stay out. The burden is on the Eurosceptics to say what being
:05:38. > :05:42.out would mean literally immediately. I do not think you can
:05:43. > :05:48.sustain a referendum campaign without having a strong position on
:05:49. > :05:52.that. Is there a sense of panic in Downing Street about Europe? They
:05:53. > :05:57.are losing a sense of control. They do not want out and they think they
:05:58. > :06:02.might end out against their will? That is true. There was a
:06:03. > :06:08.complacency around on all sides of the people in favour of staying in.
:06:09. > :06:13.Business, the CBI, common sense but the polls are going the wrong way.
:06:14. > :06:16.The longer he leaves it to the referendum the worse the migration
:06:17. > :06:23.crisis is going to look and that is at the heart of this. Nigel Farage
:06:24. > :06:27.was rather convincing earlier today on television, and if he can
:06:28. > :06:32.persuade people, in my opinion wrongly, but somehow that the
:06:33. > :06:37.migration crisis can be solved if we are out of Europe, he might be onto
:06:38. > :06:43.a winner. This has dawned on Downing Street. It is not going away any
:06:44. > :06:51.time soon. The migration crisis is likely to get worse as we get closer
:06:52. > :06:54.to the winter and these asylum seekers, refugees, families,
:06:55. > :06:59.whatever you call them, that will stay on the screens and the moment
:07:00. > :07:03.Mr Cameron tells his party what he is looking for, that is another
:07:04. > :07:08.crisis because they will not be happy. Yes, they will not be happy
:07:09. > :07:13.and Theresa May was putting the big question over the UK's involvement
:07:14. > :07:17.in terms of freedom of movement and Prime Minister will not get that
:07:18. > :07:22.fundamental point changed. David Cameron came out of the election and
:07:23. > :07:26.he thought he could concentrate on his re-negotiation and he would
:07:27. > :07:31.achieve a success and make the case. What they have now realised is that
:07:32. > :07:37.the in campaign and the ad campaign are on the pitch and the government
:07:38. > :07:42.is not. They are running a very effective insurgent campaign. What
:07:43. > :07:48.the government is trying to do is hit on the head the fundamental
:07:49. > :07:53.weakness of the leading campaign is, which is what Janan was talking
:07:54. > :07:58.about, is they cannot say what the future will be. When you leave you
:07:59. > :08:07.trigger Article 50 of the treaty and you leave the European Council. It
:08:08. > :08:11..2 member states to negotiate with you your departure. That takes two
:08:12. > :08:18.years and that is voted on not by you, but by the other 27 on the
:08:19. > :08:23.basis of a qualifying vote. The UK could not count on friends like
:08:24. > :08:27.Germany to rally to our support The Prime Minister is trying to say you
:08:28. > :08:32.have no ability to say what sort of arrangement we will have and that is
:08:33. > :08:39.where they are finally coming onto the pitch. George Osborne goes to
:08:40. > :08:44.Berlin this week to make speech on, I assume, to outline what he and the
:08:45. > :08:49.government wants from the European Union. But this is becoming a
:08:50. > :08:55.problem for the Chancellor as well. It has not been the best ten days
:08:56. > :08:59.for him. We are told he did not give enough attention to tax credits
:09:00. > :09:03.because he was so worried about the speech on re-negotiation. He goes
:09:04. > :09:12.down with this ship as well if it all goes pear shaped, that is a
:09:13. > :09:18.mixed metaphor. It is easy to see that the Conservative Party will get
:09:19. > :09:22.a radically Eurosceptics leader in a few years' time. There is a personal
:09:23. > :09:29.political problem there. The visit to Berlin is interesting because six
:09:30. > :09:32.months ago it made sense to put all your eggs in Angela Merkel's basket
:09:33. > :09:37.because she was the Empress of Europe and she would do a deal
:09:38. > :09:42.because she has got political cloud. She is the walking wounded. Will she
:09:43. > :09:46.run again? She is in much more trouble than anyone in this country
:09:47. > :09:52.understands. The trip to Berlin makes less sense now. He wants to
:09:53. > :09:55.get the protection for those members not in the eurozone to ensure that
:09:56. > :10:01.on the rules of the single market they cannot be ganged up on and he
:10:02. > :10:06.might get an emergency brake and not a veto. That will appeal to people's
:10:07. > :10:13.heads, but where these negotiations really matter is in people's hearts
:10:14. > :10:17.on issues like migration and on that ban of migrants not getting benefits
:10:18. > :10:23.for four years, it looks like the government is struggling. They are
:10:24. > :10:28.backtracking. Cameron started off saying they were not going to have a
:10:29. > :10:32.referendum. What is more having a referendum at the lowest peak for
:10:33. > :10:36.any government, two years in, they will be really unpopular in the
:10:37. > :10:43.middle of all of these cuts and they will be an antiestablishment mood.
:10:44. > :10:48.People will be voting against government. How is Jeremy Corbyn
:10:49. > :10:54.doing? Not as badly as people have predicted. What about all these
:10:55. > :10:57.people he has been appointing? There is a sense that he is only
:10:58. > :11:03.appointing around Tim people who agree with him, but that is his
:11:04. > :11:08.small, local group. By ministers and leaders tend to do that. It is not a
:11:09. > :11:16.good idea, but it is your natural instinct. They will be watching your
:11:17. > :11:24.back. Will the Corbin supporters, along with Mr McDonnell, will they
:11:25. > :11:28.want their own person in for the Golden West by-election? We shall
:11:29. > :11:34.wait and see and it will be watched by a lot of people in Labour as to
:11:35. > :11:38.whether the momentum movement gets going, which is mobilising all the
:11:39. > :11:43.people who have joined the party to see whether they can select
:11:44. > :11:48.somebody. It is so important they win this by-election. You hope the
:11:49. > :11:52.local party have quite a lot of say in the election and they choose
:11:53. > :11:58.whoever they think can win the best. They will be up against Ukip?
:11:59. > :12:01.Absolutely and Jeremy Corbyn would be in bad trouble if they lost
:12:02. > :12:11.this. They must choose somebody who is a winner. Any inside information
:12:12. > :12:22.on this? It is a 3-member panel of the Ennis -- in EC who draws up the
:12:23. > :12:28.short list. It has Keith Vaz on it and other mainstream people, so I am
:12:29. > :12:42.not sure this is a Trotskyist moment, it is quite an established
:12:43. > :12:49.thing. Is it a significant milestone in Labour moving against Trident?
:12:50. > :12:52.No, because it is a symbolic vote and I find it difficult to believe
:12:53. > :12:58.that Jeremy Corbyn's personal position on Trident will ever carry
:12:59. > :13:07.a party with lots of MPs in the manufacturing constituents with
:13:08. > :13:11.trade unions to the old right. I am not sure the Scottish or even Jeremy
:13:12. > :13:14.Corbyn with a personal mandate can carry that kind of thing. We shall
:13:15. > :13:18.see how the vote goes. We'll be back
:13:19. > :13:22.at the same time next week here on BBC 1 and you can catch the
:13:23. > :13:27.Daily Politics on BBC 2 from noon Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:28. > :13:37.it's the Sunday Politics.