:00:36. > :00:42.Could British war planes be in action over the skies of Syria
:00:43. > :00:46.Later this week, David Cameron set out his strategy
:00:47. > :00:55.George Osborne says all Whitehall departments have agreed to cuts
:00:56. > :00:58.as he gears up for his Spending Review this week.
:00:59. > :01:03.We speak to one of his Conservative predecessors.
:01:04. > :01:07.And it's been a pretty rough week for the Labour Party.
:01:08. > :01:14.With his MPs in mutinous mood, how can Jeremy Corbyn steady the ship?
:01:15. > :01:16.In London, despite the focus of a heightened terror threat,
:01:17. > :01:19.the Government could next week spell the end of the Police Community
:01:20. > :01:33.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:34. > :01:43.They pay me to say it, so I am happy to do so.
:01:44. > :01:46.Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh - who'll be tweeting
:01:47. > :01:49.Following the terror attacks in Paris, President Hollande has
:01:50. > :01:51.embarked on putting together a Grand Coalition to defeat Islamic State in
:01:52. > :01:54.Syria, involving the UN, America, Russia and, naturally, Britain.
:01:55. > :01:56.The British Government is keen to join but faces the little problem
:01:57. > :02:00.Later this week, David Cameron will present
:02:01. > :02:03.his Syrian strategy to Parliament in the hope it will command a majority
:02:04. > :02:10.Here's what the Chancellor had to say on the Marr Show earlier
:02:11. > :02:13.This week, we are going to step up our diplomatic efforts,
:02:14. > :02:16.our humanitarian efforts, and make the case for a greater
:02:17. > :02:22.The Prime Minister will seek support across Parliament
:02:23. > :02:28.for strikes against that terrorist organisation in Syria and frankly
:02:29. > :02:30.Britain has never been a country which stands on the sidelines
:02:31. > :02:45.Nick, am I right in thinking that you can see now the makings, the
:02:46. > :02:56.putting together, of majority for the Prime Minister's desire to bomb
:02:57. > :03:00.in Syria? They are being reasonably cautious that they are pretty
:03:01. > :03:03.confident that, even now, they have the numbers. Three big things have
:03:04. > :03:08.happened since three weeks ago when the Prime Minister was indicating he
:03:09. > :03:12.was unlikely to have a vote. Paris has changed everything. Jeremy
:03:13. > :03:16.Corbyn has had a challenging week. Thirdly, the Prime Minister has said
:03:17. > :03:21.he will set out the comprehensive strategy. Labour MPs who said they
:03:22. > :03:26.would like to support him have said they could not do it unless there
:03:27. > :03:31.was a comprehensive strategy. It is also turning Tory MPs can lead by
:03:32. > :03:36.Crispin Blunt, who would have voted against. He is now indicating he
:03:37. > :03:41.possibly will vote for this. DUP, Nigel Dodds, who has eight MPs at
:03:42. > :03:46.Westminster, he is indicating that if the Prime Minister set this
:03:47. > :03:51.out... It looks like the numbers are there. We did here this morning that
:03:52. > :03:57.the BBC reported the DUP with back the Prime Minister if what he had to
:03:58. > :04:01.say was credible. We are told the Tory rebels are about 15 and Labour
:04:02. > :04:05.rebels thinking of voting with the Government or abstaining could be as
:04:06. > :04:12.high as 50. What is your intelligence? A huge number, from
:04:13. > :04:17.very senior people as well. Actually the number of senior people leaving,
:04:18. > :04:22.exiting the Shadow Cabinet, I think a challenging week would be an
:04:23. > :04:28.understatement. It is at a whole new level. There is only so much time
:04:29. > :04:32.you can buy with free votes. Jeremy Corbyn opposes the party policy
:04:33. > :04:36.This time he would set his own policy but no 1 would come with him.
:04:37. > :04:40.How many times can you play that trick before people say this is a
:04:41. > :04:49.loose conglomeration of individuals and not a party? Do you think he
:04:50. > :04:54.would go for a free vote? Maria Eagle has just published a paper
:04:55. > :04:59.which is very hawkish. Hilary Benn has been making noises about this.
:05:00. > :05:05.Who is there to support, apart from John McDonnell, in this position? He
:05:06. > :05:09.is very isolated on this. The problem for the Prime Minister is,
:05:10. > :05:13.in a sense he gets what he wishes for. We begin joining others in
:05:14. > :05:19.bombing and things do not really changed in Syria. I do not think the
:05:20. > :05:22.House of Commons is the primary obstacle facing David Cameron. I
:05:23. > :05:26.think he will get the votes could not see much because of the case he
:05:27. > :05:33.will make later this week but because what happened in the last
:05:34. > :05:37.week. They focused on all necessary measures and use combat as a
:05:38. > :05:41.metaphor, but a deliberate metaphor, I think. The biggest problem is not
:05:42. > :05:44.the Parliamentary vote for David Cameron, it is the diplomatic
:05:45. > :05:49.struggle to agree with Russia exactly how we go about this. Russia
:05:50. > :05:54.are happy to bomb in Syria against Isil but they are not happy to do so
:05:55. > :05:57.in a way which, in their words, destroys the statehood of Syria
:05:58. > :06:04.which alludes to their traditional support for the existing Syrian
:06:05. > :06:08.state and basher al-Assad. The politics is far more challenging
:06:09. > :06:17.than the technical act of getting the votes together. That is the
:06:18. > :06:18.problem. What is the endgame? Transition can sometimes take a long
:06:19. > :06:24.time. A very long transition. On Wednesday, Chancellor Osborne
:06:25. > :06:26.will announce the Government's Over the next five years, they
:06:27. > :06:30.will total ?4 trillion. But even to stay within that barely
:06:31. > :06:33.imaginable sum of money, Mr Osborne will have to continue to cut
:06:34. > :06:35.departmental and welfare spending. Hence the mantra you will hear this
:06:36. > :06:41.week of "a country that lives within its means" - in other words more of
:06:42. > :06:45.a squeeze on many public services. The Chancellor wants government
:06:46. > :06:46.departments to find a further ?20 billion worth
:06:47. > :06:51.of savings between now and 2020 So, where could that money come
:06:52. > :06:54.from? Welcome to our virtual Treasury
:06:55. > :07:00.courtyard. Now, they don't have one of these
:07:01. > :07:02.in the real courtyard but it represents everything the
:07:03. > :07:07.Government is due to spend this year I'm going to start by highlighting
:07:08. > :07:14.a few of the most significant parts You can see the ?217 billion
:07:15. > :07:21.which goes on Social Security. That includes everything
:07:22. > :07:25.from jobseeker's allowance to There is the ?35 billion
:07:26. > :07:31.the UK is due to spend this year And George Osborne says that's
:07:32. > :07:38.a figure he is determined to bring Now,
:07:39. > :07:42.the focus of his statement is the money which goes on administering
:07:43. > :07:45.and delivering public services. Here it is,
:07:46. > :07:51.and you can see it's just under half We are going to delve into
:07:52. > :07:56.the budgets of a few of the most It is the NHS which accounts
:07:57. > :08:03.for the biggest chunk The Chancellor is not going to find
:08:04. > :08:09.any of his savings here because he has promised to increase
:08:10. > :08:12.NHS funding in England by ?10 The Government's also promised
:08:13. > :08:21.a real terms increase That is part of its commitment to
:08:22. > :08:27.meeting the Nato target of spending The Government is also committed to
:08:28. > :08:36.spending 0.7% of GDP on overseas aid - meaning that
:08:37. > :08:42.budget is also protected. So, the Chancellor is not going to
:08:43. > :08:45.find any of his ?20 billion of savings he says he needs to make
:08:46. > :08:51.from either health, defence or aid. So, where could it come from
:08:52. > :08:53.instead? What about
:08:54. > :08:56.from the education budget? That is a big part of what the
:08:57. > :09:00.state spends on public services Here
:09:01. > :09:01.the Conservatives have promised a That means savings
:09:02. > :09:09.from here will be limited. Although the rest of the budget does
:09:10. > :09:13.not have any guaranteed protection. Here is the money that goes
:09:14. > :09:17.to English local authorities. This was one of the first
:09:18. > :09:20.departments to agree to big savings Let's look at the Home Office whose
:09:21. > :09:29.budget this year is ?10.6 billion. The single biggest thing
:09:30. > :09:32.Theresa May's department spends money on is the grant it gives to
:09:33. > :09:37.police forces in England and Wales. Although they also get some of their
:09:38. > :09:40.money from other sources including And some of the other departments
:09:41. > :09:48.which are going to have to find big savings over the next four years are
:09:49. > :09:57.the departments of business, But let's go back to that big part
:09:58. > :10:05.of government spending I mentioned Because
:10:06. > :10:07.of course that is where a lot of the focus has been in the weeks
:10:08. > :10:10.and months before this statement. Again here there is plenty
:10:11. > :10:13.the Chancellor will not touch. The state pension is
:10:14. > :10:16.a massive part of the budget. But the Government has
:10:17. > :10:19.a long-standing promise not to cut it along with various pensioner
:10:20. > :10:23.benefits. The other areas of big spending
:10:24. > :10:27.the Government has had to look to are housing benefit, disability
:10:28. > :10:35.benefits and incapacity benefits. And, you can see that big sum
:10:36. > :10:38.of money, ?30 billion, which is due to be spent
:10:39. > :10:40.on personal tax credits this year. An area where the Chancellor has
:10:41. > :10:44.found that making savings can So, the Chancellor faces some tricky
:10:45. > :10:49.trade-offs on Wednesday when he unveils his spending plans
:10:50. > :10:52.for the next five years. Paul Johnson from the Institute
:10:53. > :11:07.of Fiscal Studies has some ideas. Paul, welcome back to the programme.
:11:08. > :11:11.Let's start with this tricky question of tax credits. What is the
:11:12. > :11:18.Chancellor, in your view, most likely to do? He has two big
:11:19. > :11:23.choices. He can decide not to make any cuts, or much in the wake of
:11:24. > :11:28.cuts, next April. That is what all of the bus has been about, the cuts
:11:29. > :11:33.that will come in next April. - the fuss. Most of the savings will come
:11:34. > :11:40.in the long run full he has also announced the new universal credit
:11:41. > :11:44.system will be much less generous than he was originally intending. In
:11:45. > :11:47.five or ten years time, even if he does not put the cut scene he was
:11:48. > :11:52.planning in April, he will still make much the same level of saving
:11:53. > :11:55.for them if he does that, his spending in 2016 on welfare benefits
:11:56. > :12:00.will be ?4 billion or so higher than he was planning and he will bust his
:12:01. > :12:05.own welfare cap, the cap he has legislated, which assumes he will
:12:06. > :12:13.make those savings. That is one option. The other option is he will
:12:14. > :12:16.try to find some savings in 201 , maybe reduce the cuts to tax credits
:12:17. > :12:22.that have some savings and look elsewhere in the welfare budget to
:12:23. > :12:27.make up the rest of the savings Whatever he does on tax credits will
:12:28. > :12:31.cost money, certainly in the short run. His deficit reduction plan for
:12:32. > :12:36.the ship is already in some trouble. He faces huge pressures to
:12:37. > :12:43.spend more on everything from health to Social Security. -- for this year
:12:44. > :12:46.is already in some trouble. The first thing to say about that
:12:47. > :12:51.surplus in 2020, there is a huge amount of uncertainty about where we
:12:52. > :12:56.will be. Forecasting these things by view ad is an extreme you tricky and
:12:57. > :13:00.uncertain business. Ignoring that, assuming the whole world moves as he
:13:01. > :13:05.expects over the next few years he will require cuts of about 25% in
:13:06. > :13:09.those unprotected apartments we have just heard about the Home Office,
:13:10. > :13:16.local government, and so on, on top of the cuts that happened during the
:13:17. > :13:21.last parliament will Boyd -- involve really sharp cuts between 2010 and
:13:22. > :13:24.2020. They are big changes to the way which we will deliver local
:13:25. > :13:29.Gottman and the way we will be delivering police force, the way we
:13:30. > :13:33.will be delivering further education and so on. Those areas of government
:13:34. > :13:39.will change fundamentally over the decade. Let me get these right. When
:13:40. > :13:43.you add up all the cuts, those made in those about to happen, between
:13:44. > :13:56.20102020, major departments, the unprotected ones, will face cuts of
:13:57. > :14:00.up to 40%. -- between 2010-2020 Is it doable? That is a good question.
:14:01. > :14:04.It may not turn up that badly if the economy does better than expected
:14:05. > :14:08.all the Chancellor finds some additional savings in Social
:14:09. > :14:14.Security, or he does not aim for the 10 million surplus and goes for a 1
:14:15. > :14:20.billion surplus. -- 10 billion. If he does go down that route, it will
:14:21. > :14:25.be more difficult than it was in the last parliament. If there were easy
:14:26. > :14:29.cuts to have made, they will have been made already. Do not forget one
:14:30. > :14:34.of the biggest bits of public spending goes on the pay of people
:14:35. > :14:37.who work in the public sector, the pay of nurses, teachers and civil
:14:38. > :14:42.servants and so on. That was quite easy to hold down over the last
:14:43. > :14:47.parliament. Pay in the private sector was doing so badly. We
:14:48. > :14:52.expect, almost economists now expect that pay in the private sector will
:14:53. > :14:59.rise well to be strongly. In that world it will be quite hard to hold
:15:00. > :15:00.down pay right across the public sector, as he said he would do back
:15:01. > :15:02.in the July budget. Joining me now Nigel Lawson,
:15:03. > :15:12.Margaret Thatcher's longest serving Welcome back to the programme. Thank
:15:13. > :15:16.you, I enjoyed your rant the other day. It was not a rant, it was a
:15:17. > :15:21.carefully scripted commentary but thank you for your remarks. Let me
:15:22. > :15:26.take an overall review on the Chancellor 's position. The
:15:27. > :15:34.borrowing figures for October were pretty bad, looks like he will
:15:35. > :15:39.overshoot this year 's borrowing. Is the austerity programme in trouble
:15:40. > :15:45.again? It is difficult, he has a difficult time because of these
:15:46. > :15:50.ridiculous protected programmes which should not exist. Aid is going
:15:51. > :15:56.up again and again, the Nobel Prize for economics has been given to an
:15:57. > :16:02.English economist, he is Scottish in fact, and one of his principal
:16:03. > :16:07.findings, he is a great expert on global poverty and one of his major
:16:08. > :16:11.findings is that overseas aid although well-intentioned does more
:16:12. > :16:18.harm than good. Yet that is going up and up. He has got a tough time but
:16:19. > :16:22.it can be done. When I was Chancellor I was able to balance the
:16:23. > :16:30.budget and get it into surplus and he has to do it as well. He has huge
:16:31. > :16:35.pressure on security, the police, the NHS, we were just talking about
:16:36. > :16:39.mitigating cuts on the tax credit side, these are all hard to resist
:16:40. > :16:45.in the current atmosphere. It is going to be very difficult and
:16:46. > :16:49.although I suspect it will mainly be cuts in savings in public spending I
:16:50. > :16:53.think he will have to do more on the tax side than he would have liked.
:16:54. > :16:59.There is some logic in that, for example it looks as if, Paul Johnson
:17:00. > :17:05.was seeing, or maybe it was you but he is likely to some extent to defer
:17:06. > :17:11.the cutting of the tax credits. It's quite right to take a knife to the
:17:12. > :17:15.tax credits, they have grown far too much and are undesirable in their
:17:16. > :17:19.present size. But nonetheless what he did propose originally was a bit
:17:20. > :17:25.too much for some and therefore he has got to delay it a bit. But when
:17:26. > :17:29.he presented, he presented a package including raising income tax
:17:30. > :17:35.threshold. He could, as part of the package delay that a little bit and
:17:36. > :17:39.help on the tax side. The government has always said it will do all the
:17:40. > :17:44.heavy lifting, the heavy lifting will be done by cuts in spending
:17:45. > :17:49.rather than increasing taxes. Will he now have to look at increasing
:17:50. > :17:53.some taxes are hats at a time of low oil prices on fuel duty? I think
:17:54. > :18:01.that's a good suggestion and it is sensible to do that. But defer a
:18:02. > :18:07.reduction which he might find less... Yes but might he have to
:18:08. > :18:13.look at some tax rises? I think you should look at the fuel duty, yes.
:18:14. > :18:19.President Hollande has said that national security comes before
:18:20. > :18:25.deficit reduction, he has sidelined the fiscal pact he has with the rest
:18:26. > :18:29.of Europe. He plans a huge increase in security spending, 17,000 more
:18:30. > :18:33.police and border guards and other security personnel. Will the British
:18:34. > :18:38.be looking at George Osborne to do something similar next week?
:18:39. > :18:42.President Hollande has never been keen on deficit-reduction in the
:18:43. > :18:45.first place. It's not unconnected with the fact as well that the
:18:46. > :18:52.French economy, and I live in France, the French economy is in a
:18:53. > :18:55.bad way. We are doing much better. Security is important but the
:18:56. > :19:03.government has said very clearly that it is going to be keeping to
:19:04. > :19:06.the 2% target, 2% of GDP on defence spending, something France is not
:19:07. > :19:12.doing even though it has considerable defence expenditure.
:19:13. > :19:16.The leaked letter from one of the most senior police officers to the
:19:17. > :19:20.Home Secretary says cuts to police budgets could reduce very
:19:21. > :19:24.significantly the ability to respond to a Paris style attack. The
:19:25. > :19:29.Chancellor is going to be under pressure to make security more
:19:30. > :19:34.important than deficit-reduction. Certainly for the foreseeable
:19:35. > :19:38.future. Security is essential. It is vital. But I think the police are
:19:39. > :19:44.complaining a little bit too much. Look how much the police are
:19:45. > :19:50.spending now on chasing up often unsubstantiated accusations of
:19:51. > :19:54.historic sex abuse. That has got nothing to do with security. Those
:19:55. > :19:59.resources should be put where they need is. I think also what the
:20:00. > :20:03.police need is not just money, and the security services to, they need
:20:04. > :20:06.intelligence. I think it would make a lot of sense and what I would like
:20:07. > :20:14.to see the government doing is to expedite the passage of the
:20:15. > :20:19.investigatory Powers Bill which is long overdue and badly needed. In
:20:20. > :20:25.this climate you accept that cutting the top rate of income tax back to
:20:26. > :20:29.the 40% that you originally introduced, that that is politically
:20:30. > :20:34.impossible for the foreseeable future? It depends how far you can
:20:35. > :20:38.proceed. I would hope that during this parliament it can be done. It
:20:39. > :20:43.is politically difficult but there is no budgetary reason against it.
:20:44. > :20:48.When I cut it it increased revenue and it would do so again. The cap
:20:49. > :20:53.which George Osborne has already done in the last parliament from 50,
:20:54. > :21:00.245 even though the Liberal Democrats he did it and it raised
:21:01. > :21:04.money and didn't cost anything. To be cutting police numbers, to be
:21:05. > :21:09.struggling to find money for the NHS, to be doing something for the
:21:10. > :21:13.working poor on tax credits, making life a bit more difficult for them
:21:14. > :21:18.but then to be cutting the top rate of the highest earners? That is why
:21:19. > :21:22.I don't think you can be doing it now that you were asking about the
:21:23. > :21:29.foreseeable future. You still think he can do it before the end of this
:21:30. > :21:35.Parliament? Yes I do. On Europe how confident are you feeling about
:21:36. > :21:40.winning the referendum to withdraw? Nobody can call a referendum. It is
:21:41. > :21:45.difficult enough sometimes to call a general election and referendums are
:21:46. > :21:50.even harder to call. Logically I don't think he will do it. Logically
:21:51. > :21:56.David Cameron ought to be campaigning to leave because what he
:21:57. > :22:03.said at the beginning was he was dissatisfied with the European Union
:22:04. > :22:09.as it is. He wanted a fundamental reform to be enshrined in treaty
:22:10. > :22:13.change. Then stay in a reformed European Union. There is not going
:22:14. > :22:17.to be a reformed European Union There will not be a treaty change.
:22:18. > :22:22.What the referendum is going to be about is if you want to stay in or
:22:23. > :22:27.leave and an reform European Union. So logically he ought to say leave
:22:28. > :22:32.and that is where I am because if it is an reform we don't want to stay
:22:33. > :22:35.in it. So even if the primer Mr was to get all his renegotiation demands
:22:36. > :22:50.such as we know them it would not change your mind on coming out? No,
:22:51. > :22:52.if he demanded a lot more and got it, major reforms which I have
:22:53. > :22:58.written about but I don't have time to go into no, I think it would be
:22:59. > :23:04.welcomed right across the European Union. This is not the view of the
:23:05. > :23:06.majority of the people, but we cannot tell the rest of the
:23:07. > :23:11.countries what to do, all we can say is what we are going to do. As we
:23:12. > :23:16.get closer to the referendum date, we don't know when it will be but
:23:17. > :23:21.when we get closer to it being announced, in terms of who seem to
:23:22. > :23:26.be the major figure who leads your side of the referendum campaign if
:23:27. > :23:37.not Nigel Farage, who? Certainly not Nigel Farage. I think the people who
:23:38. > :23:40.want to stay in have put up a businessman. Stewart draws. Not a
:23:41. > :23:48.particularly captivating businessman. Who will be the
:23:49. > :23:54.equivalent? I have no idea, but we will wait and see but it certainly
:23:55. > :24:00.won't be Nigel Farage. He will be an important player. Why not? Because
:24:01. > :24:06.Ukip has just one member of Parliament. We are a parliamentary
:24:07. > :24:10.democracy and the majority party is the Conservative Party. Nigel
:24:11. > :24:13.Lawson, thank you for being with us. Thank you.
:24:14. > :24:15.It's been a pretty torrid week for the Labour Party.
:24:16. > :24:18.Splits on everything from how to deal with terrorists to
:24:19. > :24:20.Trident, to Ken Livingstone, culminating in a bizarre row
:24:21. > :24:22.about whether or not the Shadow Chancellor wants to scrap MI5.
:24:23. > :24:25.John McDonnell insists Britain's spies are safe in his hands,
:24:26. > :24:28.though he did admit that his party has had a "rough week .
:24:29. > :24:34.It is the week that Jeremy Corbyn and his party grappled with issues
:24:35. > :24:40.In the wake of the Paris attacks, the Labour leader said he was not
:24:41. > :24:44.happy with the idea of police officers shooting to kill
:24:45. > :24:46.on British streets, which led to a very stormy party meeting,
:24:47. > :24:56.So, you tweeted, "please tell me it is not true that Jeremy just said,
:24:57. > :24:58.faced with Kalashnikov-wielding genocidal fascists, our security
:24:59. > :25:06.I, along with millions of Labour voters
:25:07. > :25:09.in this country, were very concerned by the interview that Jeremy gave.
:25:10. > :25:14.Thankfully, Hilary Benn, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, clarified matters
:25:15. > :25:17.very quickly and restated support for the use of lethal force and
:25:18. > :25:23.support of the use of drone strikes, which Jeremy had also questioned.
:25:24. > :25:25.Jeremy himself, thankfully, a few hours later,
:25:26. > :25:27.also issued a clarification, and I'm very pleased he did.
:25:28. > :25:31.A lot of Labour voters will have been very relieved.
:25:32. > :25:38.Then came a row about the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone,
:25:39. > :25:41.being appointed to co-chair the party's review of Trident, and
:25:42. > :25:44.the emergence of a letter from a campaign group calling for MI5 to be
:25:45. > :25:46.disbanded that the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, seems
:25:47. > :25:50.And we found something else interesting that John
:25:51. > :25:57.This Parliamentary motion he proposed last October saying
:25:58. > :26:00.taxpayers who do not like war should be able to opt out
:26:01. > :26:06.The military is where the next battle may lie.
:26:07. > :26:11.If and when the Government brings forward
:26:12. > :26:14.plans to extend British air strikes from Iraq to Syria, some Labour MPs
:26:15. > :26:17.want to vote in favour, while their leader is a committed
:26:18. > :26:23.One Labour figure is speaking out for the first time.
:26:24. > :26:27.I think it would be wrong to suggest there is a settled view on the
:26:28. > :26:31.People will bring their own prejudices,
:26:32. > :26:33.which are from being instinctively for intervention, to having long
:26:34. > :26:39.The only thing I would ask of all of my colleagues is we look
:26:40. > :26:45.at this with an open mind, examining the facts rather than
:26:46. > :26:53.seeing how it matches our prejudices, and then reach a
:26:54. > :26:55.decision which is in the national interest.
:26:56. > :26:57.Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is able to do that?
:26:58. > :27:00.He has some very strongly held views that we should not get involved
:27:01. > :27:05.He may have to come to a point where he says,
:27:06. > :27:09.now that I'm not just a backbencher, I am actually the Leader of
:27:10. > :27:12.There is an element of national interest and that is
:27:13. > :27:17.For the young Corbynites at this event about Labour's economic policy
:27:18. > :27:24.The only reason we look bad to the general public, the only reason
:27:25. > :27:28.we do not look very strong at the moment, is that we are not united.
:27:29. > :27:31.If you have criticisms with the Leader, you should take it up
:27:32. > :27:35.It is not fitting to do these things in the press, criticising people.
:27:36. > :27:38.Do you think there is a plot against Jeremy Corbyn?
:27:39. > :27:46.If they are planning a plot they should probably think
:27:47. > :27:49.about the fact Jeremy was elected with 59.5% of the vote, I think
:27:50. > :27:56.And we saw, from the beginning, he went
:27:57. > :27:59.from the least likely person to get in to the front runner, to the
:28:00. > :28:04.If people are plotting to get rid of him, they really should listen
:28:05. > :28:07.The party should be based around what the party members want.
:28:08. > :28:10.Unfortunately for them there will be another flash point
:28:11. > :28:14.On Tuesday there will be a vote in the House of Commons on Trident,
:28:15. > :28:19.Labour MPs have been instructed not to turn up.
:28:20. > :28:22.We understand a bunch of them, including some big names,
:28:23. > :28:24.are thinking about defying their Leader and voting
:28:25. > :28:32.It would be a largely symbolic vote but another visible symbol of
:28:33. > :28:41.I'm joined now from Doncaster by the Labour MP Caroline Flint -
:28:42. > :28:47.she was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
:28:48. > :28:53.Good morning, thank you for coming back on the programme. Let me begin
:28:54. > :28:58.with a general question, it's been a pretty terrible week for Labour
:28:59. > :29:03.what is the mood now on the Labour backbenches among your colleagues?
:29:04. > :29:07.It's not been a great week for Labour, that is correct. I think
:29:08. > :29:12.part of the reason for that is we haven't looked certain and confident
:29:13. > :29:17.on some of the big issues the nation are worried about. What we have to
:29:18. > :29:22.have from the leadership, not just Jeremy but those around him, is
:29:23. > :29:28.certainty about what we think about what is happening in terms of the
:29:29. > :29:32.terrorist acts in Paris. But more widely about what the certainty we
:29:33. > :29:37.can offer as Labour Party about how we will support our national
:29:38. > :29:42.security. I think understandably there have been concerns, I don t
:29:43. > :29:46.think just on the backbenches of the Labour Party, but also amongst the
:29:47. > :29:51.Shadow Cabinet, that is clear, but also more widely amongst the party
:29:52. > :29:57.membership as well. The news has been dominated for a week now by
:29:58. > :30:03.these terrible events in Paris. Has Jeremy Corbyn mishandled the Labour
:30:04. > :30:11.response to these events? I think what is really important is that
:30:12. > :30:14.with leadership does come a massive responsibility to speak clearly and
:30:15. > :30:19.with certainty about a whole number of issues. But probably more than
:30:20. > :30:23.any other subject area if you like national security demands that.
:30:24. > :30:27.Because at a time where we are all reeling from what has happened in
:30:28. > :30:30.Paris, and there is no doubt Jeremy Corbyn takes very, very seriously
:30:31. > :30:36.what has happened there and its implication for the security of
:30:37. > :30:40.British people as well and others around the world. The question of
:30:41. > :30:43.allowing our pleas through the legal framework which already exists to
:30:44. > :30:47.take action when they are presented with a terrorist in front of them
:30:48. > :30:51.but also on some of the other matters about how we should move
:30:52. > :30:55.forward in a united way with other countries to tackle Isil, I think
:30:56. > :31:00.that certainty has been wanting and not helped, I have to say, when
:31:01. > :31:04.other members of the Shadow Cabinet cannot speak with one voice about
:31:05. > :31:09.what the leader wants to do. I hope out of this week we will see some
:31:10. > :31:15.clarity and certainty coming forward and I think we already know, and I
:31:16. > :31:18.have heard more this morning, that David Cameron will come back to the
:31:19. > :31:23.House of Commons this week. We do need a plan, it can't just be about
:31:24. > :31:26.military action, it has to be more than that and I hope we can be in a
:31:27. > :31:30.position to opportunity going forward to tackle the threat of Isil
:31:31. > :31:31.which is the most major threat to security around the world that we
:31:32. > :31:42.have at the moment. If Mr Cameron comes form with that
:31:43. > :31:48.dashes forward with that kind of plan, would you back military action
:31:49. > :31:55.in Syria? I believe there can be a case former literary action in
:31:56. > :31:58.Syria. We are facing the most profoundly barbaric group of
:31:59. > :32:04.terrorists I think I have ever realised in my lifetime or thought
:32:05. > :32:10.about. -- military action. Also the most resourced group of terrorists
:32:11. > :32:14.in the world. It is a different situation to what we faced a few
:32:15. > :32:20.years ago where I voted against military action when Cameron came
:32:21. > :32:25.back to Parliament to deal with Assad. We have in this country and
:32:26. > :32:33.this region, a number of dangerous groups. There are a number of -
:32:34. > :32:41.there is a hierarchy of dangerous groups and Isil is the top of that
:32:42. > :32:45.list. If it can be about, yes, what sort of military action should take
:32:46. > :32:51.place, maybe the air strikes... Like we are doing in Iraq, within that a
:32:52. > :32:55.wider plan as to how we will deal with civil war in Syria and what
:32:56. > :33:01.else we need to do going forward. That is something I feel I could
:33:02. > :33:05.support. You say there is no doubt that the Labour leadership takes
:33:06. > :33:11.these matters seriously. Can I point out, just before the election this
:33:12. > :33:17.year, the Shadow Chancellor penned his name to a document supporting
:33:18. > :33:21.the abolition of MI5 and disarming the police? Last year he supported
:33:22. > :33:26.people opting out of having their taxes fund any kind of military
:33:27. > :33:30.activity. I do not think... I suspect a lot of people will not
:33:31. > :33:36.think that is taking these issues very seriously. Is Mr McConnell fit
:33:37. > :33:42.to hold the second most important position within the Shadow Cabinet?
:33:43. > :33:46.One of the aspects of the leadership campaign over the summer was a sense
:33:47. > :33:52.that Jeremy was authentic and very clear about his views. And, you
:33:53. > :33:57.know, they may not be shared with everybody, I may have some different
:33:58. > :34:04.views to Jeremy on that. Part of his appeal was the authenticity, that it
:34:05. > :34:09.did not have any spin. He said he did not realise what he do when he
:34:10. > :34:15.held that the letter and seemed to support it. We had a leadership
:34:16. > :34:21.election. There was a massive surge in our membership and Jeremy had an
:34:22. > :34:25.overwhelming mandate. Maybe, you know, Jeremy and John McDonnell
:34:26. > :34:29.have earned the right within that to put forward their views. What is
:34:30. > :34:33.clear to me, I am a moderate politician, but I am also a
:34:34. > :34:38.conviction politician. I do not say one thing to one group of people and
:34:39. > :34:42.another to another group of people. If the leadership believes in these
:34:43. > :34:45.things, they should say that and the biggest test is then to let the
:34:46. > :34:53.British people determine whether they agree with them or not. I think
:34:54. > :34:57.clarity, authenticity and honesty, they are all very important and that
:34:58. > :35:01.is how you create trust. The last election, at the end, it was clear
:35:02. > :35:07.your party had a problem over the issue of economic security. When Mr
:35:08. > :35:13.Corbyn has said about not shooting terrorists and his reservations
:35:14. > :35:17.about killing jihadi John, is not a danger, as some polls suggest this
:35:18. > :35:24.morning, though it is not a danger, as some polls suggest this morning,
:35:25. > :35:28.voters are national security and not just economic security? When it
:35:29. > :35:32.comes to leadership, as you know, you may have your own view is that
:35:33. > :35:36.you had before but you have to be open to actually other views as
:35:37. > :35:42.well. That is why we're having this debate within the Parliamentary
:35:43. > :35:48.Labour Party as to how we get a position regarding what we do next
:35:49. > :35:51.in Syria. Jeremy has an overwhelming mandate. With that comes a
:35:52. > :35:55.responsibility leadership which shows the ideas he puts forward and
:35:56. > :35:59.answers to these really difficult questions, whether on the economy
:36:00. > :36:04.national security, can also reach out beyond the Parliamentary Labour
:36:05. > :36:12.Party and to that matter the Labour Party. Part of that is winning
:36:13. > :36:16.People's trust to back you. That is the task, not just the Jeremy but
:36:17. > :36:21.any leader of the leather party He needs to show he can do that. I
:36:22. > :36:25.think he wants to do that. -- the Labour Party. They have said this
:36:26. > :36:29.morning they will have a full discussion in the Shadow Cabinet and
:36:30. > :36:34.there will be discussions within the Parliamentary Labour Party as well.
:36:35. > :36:38.Leadership does require a wider reach and responsibility beyond
:36:39. > :36:44.boundaries. Are you surprised that in so many personal appointments,
:36:45. > :36:50.John McDonnell, Ken Livingstone now on defence, Mr Corbyn seems to have
:36:51. > :36:57.made no effort to reach out to the centre of your party, much less the
:36:58. > :37:02.right of it? Well, all party leaders, I have to say, and I have
:37:03. > :37:05.seen a few, do tend to sometimes surround themselves not only with
:37:06. > :37:10.elected politicians but the paid staff who are part of their group.
:37:11. > :37:16.For any party leader, whoever they point, they have to show they will
:37:17. > :37:19.work in a way that is not just fashioned by their own particular
:37:20. > :37:23.background and experience and maybe their own point of view. There is a
:37:24. > :37:29.wider responsibility here. The Labour Party is not a pressure
:37:30. > :37:34.group. We exist to win elections in order to put our platform into
:37:35. > :37:39.practice in government. Therefore, the people around Jeremy, who have
:37:40. > :37:42.been appointed, they have to demonstrate they understand the
:37:43. > :37:45.responsibilities of that, responsibilities to the wider Labour
:37:46. > :37:51.Party. Some people within it he may not agree with him on everything but
:37:52. > :37:55.at heart we all want to win the next election. Importantly, 400,000
:37:56. > :37:59.people took part in the leadership election. That is amazing. We have
:38:00. > :38:10.had a ground swell of people join the party and many of them want to
:38:11. > :38:12.be active in a very positive way. I welcome mat. We have to convince
:38:13. > :38:16.millions of people to support us in the next election and in all the
:38:17. > :38:22.elections up to 2020. Final question to you, if Mr Corbyn continues the
:38:23. > :38:30.way he has begun, will he be leading your party into the 2020 election?
:38:31. > :38:34.Does he have any chance of winning? Look, we have had, seven, eight
:38:35. > :38:39.nine weeks since the leadership election. It has been rocky along
:38:40. > :38:42.the way. We have made significant impact when it came to the debate
:38:43. > :38:49.around tax credits for working people. Will he lead your party into
:38:50. > :38:55.the next election? What Jeremy has to do now is focused on how he leads
:38:56. > :39:00.our party right now. That will determine our fortunes in the weeks,
:39:01. > :39:03.months and also in 2020. Thank you for joining us.
:39:04. > :39:08.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:09. > :39:12.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:13. > :39:20.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:39:21. > :39:26.Our time this week is devoted largely to policing and security.
:39:27. > :39:28.Has the Paris attack seriously curtailed the Chancellor's
:39:29. > :39:36.Even if it has, will he still signal the end of the Police Community
:39:37. > :39:41.Here with me this week, David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham, and
:39:42. > :39:43.Victoria Borwick, Conservative MP for Kensington, until recently one
:39:44. > :39:47.The Statutory Deputy Mayor for London.
:39:48. > :39:50.As an added bonus, we have an elected Police and
:39:51. > :39:53.Crime Commissioner with us - Surrey's Kevin Hurley.
:39:54. > :39:59.And someone who was once Head of Counterterrorism at the City
:40:00. > :40:02.You have seen it at both ends as a politician.
:40:03. > :40:05.Let's have a word straightaway about the warnings to the
:40:06. > :40:08.Home Secretary at the end of the week that the response to
:40:09. > :40:11.terror attacks would be severely affected by big cuts in numbers
:40:12. > :40:13.Kevin, that was focusing on how we would respond if the
:40:14. > :40:20.There were warnings we could not mobilise enough people.
:40:21. > :40:23.Is that your view and perspective, as someone who, presumably,
:40:24. > :40:27.The Met would call on straightaway to provide officers?
:40:28. > :40:30.My residents work in London, so it is directly relevant.
:40:31. > :40:33.I think I am coming at this from probably three key points.
:40:34. > :40:34.Because of the insecurities of our borders,
:40:35. > :40:38.where a large number of people still come in, not so concerned
:40:39. > :40:43.Each one takes up ten AK-47 rifles, like they used over there,
:40:44. > :40:50.25 of them jumped out on a truck at Clacket Lane on the M25.
:40:51. > :40:56.The next issue is the cuts are seriously starting to make serious
:40:57. > :40:59.inroads into Police Community Support Officers and neighbourhood
:41:00. > :41:04.Of course, we talk about the firearms response.
:41:05. > :41:08.What on earth are we doing in this day and age where 100 years
:41:09. > :41:13.after the First World War we are still sending single-shot riflemen
:41:14. > :41:17.What does that mean when you say single-shot?
:41:18. > :41:20.Police weaponry around the whole country, with the armed response
:41:21. > :41:23.vehicles, consists of a high-quality rifle that has been deliberately
:41:24. > :41:29.downgraded to fire single shots based on the old rationale of police
:41:30. > :41:35.We are now in a situation where we need to immediately challenge
:41:36. > :41:41.The only way you can do that, if you like, my military background
:41:42. > :41:46.You have to suppress their fire by firing more back,
:41:47. > :41:50.Let's get back to that central point.
:41:51. > :41:53.If something similar happened in London tomorrow,
:41:54. > :41:57.would there be enough resources enough officers, to respond to it?
:41:58. > :42:02.There would be, broadly speaking, officers able to respond to it.
:42:03. > :42:07.The issue is, what is the level of their weaponry and could they
:42:08. > :42:10.maintain the kind of resilience we are seeing right across France?
:42:11. > :42:15.Let's get on to the politics at this time.
:42:16. > :42:18.At Prime Minister's Questions this week, the Labour Leader asked
:42:19. > :42:20.if the budget for community policing would be protected.
:42:21. > :42:27.Neighbourhood policing numbers have gone up by 3800.
:42:28. > :42:29.In the capital city we have seen a 500% increase
:42:30. > :42:36.We have also, because we have cut bureaucracy, put the equivalent of
:42:37. > :42:43.A pretty robust response from the PM.
:42:44. > :42:48.Politicians do not say this lightly but I am afraid he misled the House.
:42:49. > :42:54.Numbers in neighbourhood policing have fallen by 5700.
:42:55. > :42:59.If there is a blue light, the police will turn up.
:43:00. > :43:01.If it is at neighbourhood level decimated, not there.
:43:02. > :43:07.They were very much the new, ethnic minority officers coming through.
:43:08. > :43:10.Neighbourhood teams, stripped back, over stretched.
:43:11. > :43:16.Neighbourhood policing has all but vanished.
:43:17. > :43:18.Victoria Borwick, were you there at the time?
:43:19. > :43:21.I can only say this from my experience at the GLA.
:43:22. > :43:24.The wonderful thing is, The Met is about the one larger
:43:25. > :43:29.London-wide borough that has not actually had police cuts.
:43:30. > :43:35.But did you recognise those figures that he gave?
:43:36. > :43:40.We have said to The Met that they must be able to choose how
:43:41. > :43:45.The wonderful thing is, we now have neighbourhood policing,
:43:46. > :43:50.We do not have, as in the Ken Livingstone day, two people here
:43:51. > :43:53.and two people there, which might have meant the high street split
:43:54. > :43:59.Let's get on to the detail in a second.
:44:00. > :44:05.In 2010, he was saying, there were just 800 community police officers,
:44:06. > :44:11.Were there 800 neighbourhood policing officers in 2010?
:44:12. > :44:14.I cannot remember exactly that year and exactly that figure.
:44:15. > :44:18.That was the year when police had the highest number ever.
:44:19. > :44:26.He was saying there were 800 at that time who were dedicated
:44:27. > :44:29.Somehow, that has gone up now to 5000 dedicated neighbourhood
:44:30. > :44:33.David Lammy says the actual trend has been the other way.
:44:34. > :44:37.Every area now has an inspector and two people neighbourhood
:44:38. > :44:42.Every area has got dedicated police that are not going to go off
:44:43. > :44:47.and be running around after other things happening in London.
:44:48. > :44:51.What we are talking about is making London safe
:44:52. > :44:56.Again, I'm just wondering about these figures.
:44:57. > :45:00.We knew there was a kind of, not a golden age, but a lot money
:45:01. > :45:08.was put into neighbourhood policing, up to 2008/2009/2010.
:45:09. > :45:11.We saw great strength during the Olympics where again we
:45:12. > :45:18.At this stage you will say you are very happy.
:45:19. > :45:20.with the current level of neighbourhood policing and you
:45:21. > :45:26.No, what I am saying is, actually, there may be changes but it is up
:45:27. > :45:30.to The Met to decide, operation policing, who should be where.
:45:31. > :45:33.We have just heard, if there is a threat,
:45:34. > :45:39.We have to increase our counterterrorism spending,
:45:40. > :45:42.the armed response, we have to re-look at the other things we are
:45:43. > :45:47.The commissioner has already said that all of those things
:45:48. > :45:53.It is not for me - or any of us - to sit here and say how many police
:45:54. > :45:57.Can I ask Kevin very quickly, from your knowledge of London,
:45:58. > :45:59.I may tip into your feelings about Surrey as well...
:46:00. > :46:03.The Prime Minister was actually saying the number
:46:04. > :46:06.of neighbourhood policing had gone up across the country.
:46:07. > :46:08.Nine members of my family are or were members
:46:09. > :46:17.I have lots of friends at the highest level.
:46:18. > :46:19.On a daily basis, people tell me they are not anywhere
:46:20. > :46:24.Officers at the grassroot level whether it is on response or CID
:46:25. > :46:26.Neighbourhood officers are continually failing to meet
:46:27. > :46:29.appointments for the public because they are being cut.
:46:30. > :46:33.In Surrey, which is right next to us, the richest county
:46:34. > :46:36.in the country, they are going to lose 400 members of staff
:46:37. > :46:44.Victoria, you mentioned helpfully that there are big choices to make.
:46:45. > :46:47.Let's try and bury down into that, whether it will be armed police or
:46:48. > :46:51.that kind of specialism, or, indeed, Police Community Support Officers.
:46:52. > :46:55.Police Community Support Officers were introduced several years ago.
:46:56. > :46:57.That was to help provide the reassuring and visible presence
:46:58. > :46:59.that people seem to want in their neighbourhoods, eyes
:47:00. > :47:04.Andrew Cryan now reports on their steady demise and possible
:47:05. > :47:13.Britain is introduced to the Community Support Officer,
:47:14. > :47:21.It is not just jam tomorrow, it is protection today.
:47:22. > :47:24.London was the first place in the country to have them.
:47:25. > :47:26.They were invested with some of the powers of full police
:47:27. > :47:31.They could direct traffic and pedestrians,
:47:32. > :47:34.remove abandoned vehicles, issue fixed penalty notices such
:47:35. > :47:39.as for dog fouling, or littering, demand the name and address
:47:40. > :47:42.of someone acting in an anti-social way, and the power to seize drugs.
:47:43. > :47:46.What they do not have is the power to arrest.
:47:47. > :47:49.After next week's comprehensive spending review, Scotland Yard is
:47:50. > :47:54.set to decide on the future of the community support officer.
:47:55. > :47:57.One of the options on the table some people say, means the end
:47:58. > :48:03.Some think the view from Scotland Yard could be that other
:48:04. > :48:15.The Met is facing such drastic budget cuts that the Commissioner
:48:16. > :48:18.has said one possibility is to cut all PCSOs in the capital.
:48:19. > :48:21.The Commissioner himself says they are the eyes and ears
:48:22. > :48:25.I think it is a vital, intelligence policing resource that
:48:26. > :48:33.Following the tragic events in Paris last weekend, there has been much
:48:34. > :48:36.discussion about how London could cope in a similar situation.
:48:37. > :48:40.The Met police has said they want more armed officers.
:48:41. > :48:42.The Government has promised nearly 2000 new intelligence
:48:43. > :48:49.With other priorities, does it mean the community support officers stand
:48:50. > :48:53.Former Met Police Commissioner Ian Blair has warned he thinks it would
:48:54. > :48:57.I think it would be a disaster, an absolute disaster.
:48:58. > :49:01.In the end, it is intelligence from the community that will lead us
:49:02. > :49:10.And it is those patrolling PCSOs who get to know the communities,
:49:11. > :49:18.This is policing with communities, not at communities.
:49:19. > :49:20.If the choice is community support officers or fully warranted police,
:49:21. > :49:22.some say it should be a simple decision.
:49:23. > :49:26.For the organisation, of course there has been some benefit.
:49:27. > :49:33.They provide a role, they are back for warrented police officers.
:49:34. > :49:35.I wouldn't decry that for one minute.
:49:36. > :49:37.But they are not warranted police officers
:49:38. > :49:40.and they do not perform the same role of a warranted police officer.
:49:41. > :49:47.They are part of the family and they do a blooming good job
:49:48. > :49:50.I am not going to stand here and say they do not.
:49:51. > :49:53.We are talking about cutting our numbers and cutting policing.
:49:54. > :49:56.That, to me, would be the first thing to cut, before you start
:49:57. > :50:01.But before writing the obituary of the community support officer,
:50:02. > :50:04.it is worth considering that the cuts coming down
:50:05. > :50:09.the line might not be as apocalyptic as some people are making out.
:50:10. > :50:14.Back in 2010, there were about 500 police community support officers.
:50:15. > :50:30.Or if the choice were between the PCSO and a real police
:50:31. > :50:34.The important thing is it is extremely unlikely that we will see,
:50:35. > :50:37.with the current situation we have seen in the last week,
:50:38. > :50:42.Exactly how the cuts will come or how the changes will come, it is up
:50:43. > :50:45.to the Commissioner to decide with the mayor and the Home Secretary.
:50:46. > :50:47.Boris has always gone on record to say he would rather
:50:48. > :50:51.they were not cut but new decisions have to be made now, as a result
:50:52. > :50:55.of the terrible, terrible bombings we have seen in Paris.
:50:56. > :51:04.Even if we cannot make sense of the claims that have been made
:51:05. > :51:07.about neighbourhood policing in the last years, do you accept that the
:51:08. > :51:10.trajectory and the way Boris Johnson and his deputy Stephen Greenhalgh
:51:11. > :51:12.have replaced PCSOs with police officers available
:51:13. > :51:14.for the front line is the better of the two options?
:51:15. > :51:19.You speak to shopkeepers about how often they are seeing
:51:20. > :51:22.community support officers at neighbourhood level, they are not.
:51:23. > :51:25.You asked the mosque, you ask the synagogue, you ask the schools.
:51:26. > :51:27.Those officers are vanishing, they are going.
:51:28. > :51:31.That is why, actually, very sadly knife crime is spiking, because the
:51:32. > :51:34.officers are not there to know the young people, to be in the community
:51:35. > :51:40.That is what is happening and this move will bring us back to where
:51:41. > :51:48.Public order officers had disappeared across London,
:51:49. > :51:51.we needed 2,500 from the rest of the country to actually
:51:52. > :51:54.This is very serious and the Conservatives are playing politics.
:51:55. > :51:57.They are redesignating language they are fixing the numbers.
:51:58. > :52:00.The truth is the numbers are falling.
:52:01. > :52:03.1.3 billion taken out of the budget, it's got to fall somewhere,
:52:04. > :52:08.Even if they were redefining the neighbourhood policing,
:52:09. > :52:12.people also want to be able to see a doctor when they want to see
:52:13. > :52:15.them, they also need to have their children educated in schools, to be
:52:16. > :52:19.All these departments are facing pressures as well.
:52:20. > :52:22.The Home Office, the police, have to do the same as well don't they?
:52:23. > :52:23.You decide where your priorities are.
:52:24. > :52:27.I think there are issues around efficiency and IT but
:52:28. > :52:29.when we had riots we needed two and a half thousand
:52:30. > :52:33.We are facing very, very serious pressures in relation
:52:34. > :52:39.This is absolutely not the time to strip away that
:52:40. > :52:41.neighbourhood level where the intelligence actually comes from.
:52:42. > :52:46.Let me bring Kevin in, what have you done in Surrey?
:52:47. > :52:51.What we have done, we have lost some of them the
:52:52. > :52:55.but key thing is we are reducing by 400 staff by losing all the support
:52:56. > :52:59.staff who do the interviewing of the prisoners and the case processing.
:53:00. > :53:03.That means the uniform officers rather than being out
:53:04. > :53:06.in the neighbourhoods will spend hours back in the police station.
:53:07. > :53:09.We are spinning the wheel right back to the police officers
:53:10. > :53:16.My view is the government have made a very big mistake in cutting police
:53:17. > :53:19.as far as they already have done because it is security which
:53:20. > :53:22.underpins the economy which enables the Chancellor to make the taxes.
:53:23. > :53:25.We need to think of this as an economic decision.
:53:26. > :53:32.The important thing is we all know counterterrorism is not
:53:33. > :53:37.The Prime Minister has gone on record as saying that, the Home
:53:38. > :53:41.Secretary has gone on record saying that, and so has Bernard Hogan-Howe.
:53:42. > :53:43.We must keep London safe, our capital safe,
:53:44. > :53:53.Still to be hotly debated. What resources will you put back into the
:53:54. > :53:59.borders? Did you think you will take us down that territory? It is the
:54:00. > :54:04.same thing, it is all part of a package. It is one for another day,
:54:05. > :54:07.thank you. When the Chancellor details on Wednesday not just his
:54:08. > :54:13.Autumn Statement but his spending plans expect more voltage for the
:54:14. > :54:16.Northern powerhouse. With public spending in London on the byword
:54:17. > :54:23.project very end relative terms to the rest of the UK it looks as
:54:24. > :54:27.though London should be worried The 21st-century has seen the capital
:54:28. > :54:30.changed dramatically. New infrastructure backed up by billions
:54:31. > :54:33.of pounds of government spending has helped London into a position where
:54:34. > :54:39.it dominates the rest of the country. But could the years of high
:54:40. > :54:42.investment be coming to an end? Five years ago the government was
:54:43. > :54:47.spending more on every Londoner than anyone else on the British mainland
:54:48. > :54:52.in part due to huge projects like Crossrail and the Olympics. Only the
:54:53. > :54:55.Northern Ireland received more. But London has fallen back. We received
:54:56. > :54:59.less than the Scots and the Welsh and the people of the North are
:55:00. > :55:03.gaining fast. Next week when George Osborne sets out his spending plans
:55:04. > :55:07.for the coming half decade could we see London lose more ground? It
:55:08. > :55:16.could easily be that London's time has come and gone. The big
:55:17. > :55:19.investment in London, particularly upgrading the tubes, Crossrail,
:55:20. > :55:28.other infrastructure which took place under the Labour government is
:55:29. > :55:31.now followed by eight Conservative government which is intriguingly
:55:32. > :55:37.investing in the Midlands and the North. The Northern powerhouse was
:55:38. > :55:40.launched in 2014. Manchester is newly created me will receive
:55:41. > :55:46.additional powers over areas like skills and health -- newly created
:55:47. > :55:50.Maher. The leader of Manchester City Council is clear such powers would
:55:51. > :55:54.be good for the capital as well London should have exactly the same
:55:55. > :55:58.powers and the evidence from the best performing cities in Europe is
:55:59. > :56:03.that we are cities have more control over those levers of economic growth
:56:04. > :56:08.the city 's economy does better but also the national economy. He also
:56:09. > :56:13.said London has been receiving a disproportionate amount of money.
:56:14. > :56:18.That has been the case for a long time, the amount of spending has
:56:19. > :56:25.been disproportionate and we need to start redistributing that. If there
:56:26. > :56:28.is a concern from London, the only way they will stop subsidising the
:56:29. > :56:32.rest of the country is by having the investment in other parts of the
:56:33. > :56:36.country which allows them to become self-sustaining. With the capital
:56:37. > :56:39.generating more money for the Treasury than any other region in
:56:40. > :56:45.the country, if London is seen to not be getting a fair deal next week
:56:46. > :56:49.there are sure to be concerns. Lets not linger on if Labour should be
:56:50. > :56:53.the ones making these arguments and if George Osborne has stolen the
:56:54. > :56:59.clothing, is this the right thing to happen and do you fear the impact it
:57:00. > :57:03.could have? I have to say I think the direction of travel, giving more
:57:04. > :57:07.autonomy to the north, must be the right thing. The country is
:57:08. > :57:12.unbalanced to London and the south-east. Having said that, one in
:57:13. > :57:17.four people in London are living in poverty. One in for young people are
:57:18. > :57:25.unemployed. We don't have any powers over social care and health care,
:57:26. > :57:30.any real powers over school places and just 7% of the budget comes from
:57:31. > :57:46.taxation, whereas other major cities like New York, 50%. We need a Maher
:57:47. > :57:50.who can raise money -- mayor who can raise money himself and is not
:57:51. > :57:55.reliant on a Chancellor making decisions on our behalf. First soul
:57:56. > :58:05.on the Conservatives not exploring much interest in devolution, what do
:58:06. > :58:13.you think about it now, having been a London politician most of your
:58:14. > :58:17.life? We have seen tremendous investment, the opportunity of
:58:18. > :58:21.having a mayor who has driven forward the interest and investment
:58:22. > :58:27.in our city. And it has reached a peak and we're now seeing
:58:28. > :58:32.post-London? Not all, at the conference earlier this week, not
:58:33. > :58:36.party political, everyone said the important thing was to have both.
:58:37. > :58:40.London was doing well so the important thing was to also invest.
:58:41. > :58:46.But we know there is not the money? Tell me the dynamic that Manchester
:58:47. > :58:53.and the North can gain but London can gain as well? London has gone
:58:54. > :58:57.out and Boris has gone out in particular to get investment from
:58:58. > :59:01.overseas countries and companies. London is thriving, business is
:59:02. > :59:06.booming. We are doing well in London, it's the same opportunity to
:59:07. > :59:11.do that in the north. I agree with David that it is important that we
:59:12. > :59:15.say let's give those other parts of London the opportunity. This is the
:59:16. > :59:19.chance to work with labour leaders in Manchester and Leeds, we are
:59:20. > :59:23.putting the country first. We are seeing what is best for the country
:59:24. > :59:31.and what is best is to enable those parts to make their own decisions to
:59:32. > :59:36.devolve into structure and spending and power. What's not to like? I get
:59:37. > :59:41.the feeling George Osborne is waiting to see if they will keep
:59:42. > :59:47.City Hall. He doesn't want to give the powers to what he thinks will be
:59:48. > :59:57.a Labour mayor. Labourer were not missing financial devolution.
:59:58. > :00:01.Skyscrapers are up but they are not building housing for ordinary
:00:02. > :00:06.Londoners. Day centres being cut across the city. Youth unemployment
:00:07. > :00:09.one in for. That is an infrastructure in need of investment
:00:10. > :00:14.but it needs the Chancellor today to give the powers to a London mayor
:00:15. > :00:18.who can raise taxation and get on with it. Rapidly running out of
:00:19. > :00:21.time, now for the rest of the portico news in 60 seconds. --
:00:22. > :00:33.political news. On Wednesday more than 13,000 people
:00:34. > :00:40.signed a petition to ban lorries from the London roads in the rush
:00:41. > :00:46.hour. It was after a fatal collision between a cyclist and a tip the
:00:47. > :00:51.trunk full -- tipper truck. The next day the mayor attended the official
:00:52. > :00:53.opening of Central London's first segregated superhighway. Cyclists
:00:54. > :01:02.were kept segregated from other traffic. Students from the Mulberry
:01:03. > :01:04.School in East London have is did the White House to hear the First
:01:05. > :01:10.Lady inspired them about their future. Michelle Obama visited the
:01:11. > :01:14.school in June and talked about the importance of education. As England
:01:15. > :01:23.played France, 70,000 English and French fans sang the Marseillaise to
:01:24. > :01:30.show their solidarity after the terrorist attacks in Paris.
:01:31. > :01:39.Let's get back to the cycling issue. David first. Would you say that
:01:40. > :01:44.London is more congested than it has been for a very long time? Would you
:01:45. > :01:52.put it down to the cycle engineering works? Absolutely not. Anyone who is
:01:53. > :01:59.unemployed is becoming an bluebird driver. They are congesting you have
:02:00. > :02:04.issue with works across London which are uncoordinated. Ten seconds.
:02:05. > :02:15.Boris Johnson has failed on congestion. Absolutely not. People
:02:16. > :02:21.need to come up bicycles and onto -- people need to get on to bikes and
:02:22. > :02:24.of polluting cars. Can Jeremy Corbyn rein
:02:25. > :02:26.in his discontented MPs? Can George Osborne sell
:02:27. > :02:42.his spending cuts? Helen, let's start with the spending
:02:43. > :02:46.review. It is quite clear that deficit reduction is not getting any
:02:47. > :02:50.easier, even though the economy has been growing for some time. I
:02:51. > :02:54.thought it was interesting that even Nigel Lawson said the Chancellor may
:02:55. > :03:07.have to look if he wants to continue reducing the deficit, not just at
:03:08. > :03:11.spending cuts but tax rises. That is about having a surplus by 2020. It
:03:12. > :03:15.gives them very little room for manoeuvre. The big problem for the
:03:16. > :03:21.Tories in this Parliament, last parliament you had heavy cuts for
:03:22. > :03:24.councils which fell a lot on adult social care. A small number of
:03:25. > :03:29.people which hugely affected by that. The next round of cuts will
:03:30. > :03:35.mean a much larger group of people are affected. That is much harder to
:03:36. > :03:41.get past the public. It gets in a lot of money and a big revenue from
:03:42. > :03:48.the Government. Is that possible? There is logic to it, given to what
:03:49. > :03:52.has happened with oil prices. The logic is, low oil prices and the
:03:53. > :03:57.political logic will be, the gunmen will say, they have done enough on
:03:58. > :04:02.making fuel cheaper tax wise in recent years. They now have
:04:03. > :04:06.political room for manoeuvre on that issue. George Osborne is now boxed
:04:07. > :04:10.in, not just by the decision to aim for a surplus and the decision to
:04:11. > :04:14.aim for troubling pounds in welfare cuts, but also by the decision
:04:15. > :04:19.alluded to by Nigel Lawson to protect entire departments of
:04:20. > :04:28.spending, health service and foreign aid. Anything to do with people over
:04:29. > :04:32.65. That leaves you with one option, to go to departments which have
:04:33. > :04:36.already made absolutely swingeing cuts over the last two years and ask
:04:37. > :04:40.for more. There is a perverse incentive that when the Treasury
:04:41. > :04:44.knows that for example local government or business is able to
:04:45. > :04:49.make very deep cuts, as they have done, those departments are awarded
:04:50. > :04:54.by being asked more cuts. There is a perverse incentive almost to hold
:04:55. > :05:00.out. George Osborne has a thoroughly consistent record. He will duff up
:05:01. > :05:06.the Labour Party and then implement the fiscal deficit reduction plan.
:05:07. > :05:10.In the last parliament he halved the overall fiscal deficit. In this
:05:11. > :05:14.Parliament he went into the election saying, I will run a 10 million
:05:15. > :05:18.surplus two years before the general election. He has all it is a laid
:05:19. > :05:23.back by one year. He has announced today the 10 billion has pretty much
:05:24. > :05:28.gone. He may run a surplus but it may be ?10 rather than 10 billion!
:05:29. > :05:33.That will be much closer to the Ed Balls plan. As Helen was saying he
:05:34. > :05:39.has got himself into this mess because he set a trap for Ed Balls.
:05:40. > :05:44.There is a danger of just public weariness. I think the Treasury is
:05:45. > :05:50.worried about this. The mood of the public. We are into our sixth year
:05:51. > :05:57.and there is still 80 million to go. The public in Greece just got fed
:05:58. > :06:04.up. In Portugal a few weeks ago the Portuguese economy was recovering
:06:05. > :06:09.well but the public got fed up. In the election campaign we heard about
:06:10. > :06:14.the long-term economic plan. If you asked people what that was, there
:06:15. > :06:19.are a few new. Most people assume that things were on the upside. They
:06:20. > :06:24.did not realise the cuts in the second term would be deeper. The
:06:25. > :06:32.comprehensive spending review will be live on BBC Two. It will be a
:06:33. > :06:40.political event. Let's move on to the Labour Party. We have the vote
:06:41. > :06:45.on Trident. SNP are putting it down and it is meant to be a trap for
:06:46. > :06:53.Labour. The leader it is against it but the party is in favour of it
:06:54. > :07:00.credible to say, just abstain? I think they will get away with it. It
:07:01. > :07:04.was set at conference but it cannot come onto the conference floor for
:07:05. > :07:09.three years. The Labour leader is completely opposed to it. He has
:07:10. > :07:17.said there is no compromise on it. He has had to make a series of
:07:18. > :07:20.compromises. No matter what Mr Corbyn and John McDonnell wants
:07:21. > :07:28.they cannot change it for another three years? What happened at the
:07:29. > :07:34.Labour conference is they attempted to have it debated but they failed.
:07:35. > :07:39.It is up to the National policy Forum. This review is being chaired
:07:40. > :07:43.by Maria Eagle and Ken Livingstone for that they are looking at it and
:07:44. > :07:47.it will go to the National policy Forum to decide. That is a way of
:07:48. > :07:52.overruling what the existing rules are full you have a strange
:07:53. > :07:55.situation where Jeremy Corbyn wants to promote grassroots
:07:56. > :08:00.decision-making on things he agrees with. Not so much in this case. The
:08:01. > :08:06.point Caroline Flint was making you cannot keep having free vote on such
:08:07. > :08:09.massive issues as to whether this country should have nuclear
:08:10. > :08:14.deterrent and whether we should extend the battle against Islamic
:08:15. > :08:17.State to Syria. You cannot have a huge disparity between leader and
:08:18. > :08:23.Parliamentary party on existential issues. What it leads to is the
:08:24. > :08:27.leader having to use flirted, surreptitiously methods to get his
:08:28. > :08:31.own way and negotiate around party policy. The ultimate example this
:08:32. > :08:41.week with getting Ken Livingstone, the famous defence expert, to have
:08:42. > :08:48.the defence review. Briefly, because I want to move on. If you get 6 % of
:08:49. > :08:51.the vote in the leadership election, it is that at the fair to put your
:08:52. > :08:56.views forward. They need to make a decision by the time there is a big
:08:57. > :09:00.vote on Trident next year. The difficulties they hear and now. And
:09:01. > :09:07.that is Syria. The here and now is having an effect. We had a policy
:09:08. > :09:13.morning. One of the questions was about national-security. -- a poll
:09:14. > :09:22.this morning. Who do you think would keep you and your family safe? 9%
:09:23. > :09:26.trusted David Cameron and only 7% voted for Jeremy Corbyn. The point I
:09:27. > :09:29.put to Caroline Flint, this is dangerous for Labour. They already
:09:30. > :09:35.have a problem with economic security. That is one reason they
:09:36. > :09:40.did not win. To not be trusted national-security as well, it means
:09:41. > :09:46.it is well nigh impossible to win an election. There was a seductive
:09:47. > :09:55.narrative about patria to them with Jeremy Corbyn not singing with Queen
:09:56. > :09:58.-- not seeing the Queen 's speech. I think particularly in the aftermath
:09:59. > :10:02.of Paris, what people were looking to see from leaders were looking to
:10:03. > :10:06.see from leaders in summary. That is a huge problem. The problem also
:10:07. > :10:14.comes with the fact these polls are very bad. At this stage, Ed Miliband
:10:15. > :10:17.was doing better and that was, even then, people were talking about
:10:18. > :10:22.whether it would bring him down Debts have a look at the state of
:10:23. > :10:25.the parties with the poll. I'm told this is the biggest Tory lead over
:10:26. > :10:32.Labour since John Major took over from Margaret Thatcher, 15 points.
:10:33. > :10:37.There we have the Tories on 42 and Labour down to 27. The Labour vote
:10:38. > :10:43.came down a couple of points. Ukip are still doing pretty well, at
:10:44. > :10:49.15%. The Lib Dems are still flat-lining at 7%. The Scottish
:10:50. > :10:58.National 's get five. It means a lot more in Scotland. The Green party is
:10:59. > :11:04.down at 3% and going nowhere. At this stage of the process is it is
:11:05. > :11:09.not -- the process, it is not that important. Given all the problems we
:11:10. > :11:15.have had about tax credits and Tory difficulties, it is pretty
:11:16. > :11:20.disheartening. The last time the Labour Party scored 27% in a general
:11:21. > :11:24.election was under Baikal foot as leader. It has been a defining
:11:25. > :11:32.moment for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party. -- under Michael Foot.
:11:33. > :11:35.You need to ensure the nation's finances are safe and
:11:36. > :11:39.national-security is safe. On the second one, is a nation secure in
:11:40. > :11:49.your hands? He appeared to be found wanting. You have a at a clown
:11:50. > :11:57.situation, what would you do? He equivocated and said, I would be an
:11:58. > :12:00.easy. -- a Bataclan Theatre situation. Only the next day did he
:12:01. > :12:06.finally set out the circumstances in which he would approve that type of
:12:07. > :12:12.response by the security services. The problem was his initial
:12:13. > :12:16.responses showed his instincts. Putting that in front of the British
:12:17. > :12:21.people, you will have a challenging time winning an election like that.
:12:22. > :12:24.The Parliamentary Labour Party has to be careful. They may not be in
:12:25. > :12:29.tune with the people in the country in the Labour Party who elected Mr
:12:30. > :12:33.Corbyn as leader. Although they are getting impatient, I would suggest
:12:34. > :12:39.they have to wait at least until May until the Scottish elections, the
:12:40. > :12:45.local government elections. They really cannot move before then, can
:12:46. > :12:50.they? They acknowledge he has a thumping great mandate from the
:12:51. > :12:54.election. A lot of those people have actually converted to being full
:12:55. > :13:00.party members. He still has a huge backing at grassroots level. The
:13:01. > :13:07.Mint is thriving and drawing in huge crowds of people. -- momentum is
:13:08. > :13:12.thriving. Even a later post was then they could come third in Scotland.
:13:13. > :13:17.They were saying Jeremy Corbyn is the 1 guy who could bring back the
:13:18. > :13:24.votes that were lost to SNP in recent years. By one warning to the
:13:25. > :13:31.Labour Party is, if you think 2 % is low, wait until the public starts to
:13:32. > :13:35.focus on the next election? 27% is not the floor for Labour. We shall
:13:36. > :13:38.see. That is all for today. The Daily Politics will be back
:13:39. > :13:41.on BBC2 at noon tomorrow. And we'll be back again next
:13:42. > :13:50.weekend at the same time. We will be back to disentangle the
:13:51. > :13:53.spending review next Sunday at the same time.
:13:54. > :13:59.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.