:00:36. > :00:43.Jeremy Corbyn calls on Britain to accept more refugees and economic
:00:44. > :00:47.migrants, as the Port of Calais is forced to close overnight
:00:48. > :00:51.after migrants attempted to force their way onto a Channel ferry.
:00:52. > :00:55.David Cameron appears increasingly confident he'll bag a deal on EU
:00:56. > :00:58.reform next month, including new measures to reduce EU migration
:00:59. > :01:04.In the first of three Sunday Politics debates,
:01:05. > :01:07.the leave and remain campaigns go head-to-head on immigration.
:01:08. > :01:13.And speaking exclusively to this programme, Ed Miliband's former
:01:14. > :01:17.pollster Deborah Mattinson criticises Labour's official report
:01:18. > :01:20.into why the party lost the general election for failing to face up
:01:21. > :01:36.I think it was a whitewash and a massive missed opportunity.
:01:37. > :01:42.The Conservative's 7/7 candidate has now launched his
:01:43. > :01:49.-- the conservative's Mayor candidate has now launched his
:01:50. > :01:50.action plan. And with me, as always,
:01:51. > :01:52.the best and the brightest political panel in the business -
:01:53. > :01:55.Nick Watt, Beth Rigby and Janan They'll be tweeting
:01:56. > :01:57.throughout the programme So, the Port of Calais was forced
:01:58. > :02:04.to close for a while yesterday after migrants managed to breach
:02:05. > :02:07.security and board a ferry. Amateur footage captured
:02:08. > :02:10.the moment a group managed to break through security fences and head
:02:11. > :02:12.towards the P ferry. The incident happened
:02:13. > :02:14.during a protest at the port, The head of the Road Haulage
:02:15. > :02:18.Association here in Britain has renewed demands for the French
:02:19. > :02:20.military to intervene. As it happens,
:02:21. > :02:22.the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was in northern France yesterday,
:02:23. > :02:24.visiting the migrant camps While he was there,
:02:25. > :02:29.he reiterated his calls for the British Government to do
:02:30. > :02:35.more to help migrants. I talk to people all over
:02:36. > :02:39.the country and not everyone is that cold-hearted, not everyone
:02:40. > :02:42.else has a stony heart. They are prepared to reach out,
:02:43. > :02:45.and I think we need a response And indeed Germany has
:02:46. > :02:51.done an enormous amount, other countries have
:02:52. > :02:54.done varying amounts, and I think we should
:02:55. > :02:57.be part of helping to bring a European-wide support
:02:58. > :03:10.to people, and that's what I'm Jeremy Corbyn yesterday. Beth, what
:03:11. > :03:15.we make of the story, the government will allow unaccompanied children
:03:16. > :03:21.refugees, already in Europe, to come into Britain? Some of my government
:03:22. > :03:24.sources have suggested that is not what David Cameron would like to do,
:03:25. > :03:28.if you think about how he dealt with the crisis in August, he said we
:03:29. > :03:33.will take some Syrian refugees but we will take them from the camps in
:03:34. > :03:37.Syria and around Syria, we will not take them from Calais, because he
:03:38. > :03:42.thinks this is a push factor and it makes people come over. What the
:03:43. > :03:48.government might end up doing, they might agree to take refugee children
:03:49. > :03:52.unaccompanied, but only from Syria and the Middle East, not from
:03:53. > :04:00.Calais. What about the kids who have made it here? They could be bad way.
:04:01. > :04:04.Nick? The signals on government, they have not made any decisions yet
:04:05. > :04:08.and the announcement is not imminent, but Beth makes a very
:04:09. > :04:11.important point, the Prime Minister said you do not want to encourage
:04:12. > :04:13.people to make that journey, therefore the instinct is to take
:04:14. > :04:19.people from the neighbouring countries. Apart from unaccompanied
:04:20. > :04:24.kids, they have come across in terrible conditions, and they are in
:04:25. > :04:28.Calais and Dunkirk. The call to take these children, from that report,
:04:29. > :04:32.that says that is a fair proportion of the 26,000 unaccompanied children
:04:33. > :04:37.that have come to Europe. The figures in that report are
:04:38. > :04:42.terrifying, in 2014, of the 13,000 unaccompanied children that ended up
:04:43. > :04:46.in Italy, 3000 went missing, and of the African children that went to
:04:47. > :04:52.Italy, half of them had been subject to some form of sexual abuse, it is
:04:53. > :04:59.the most horrific figures. That 3000 figure, endorsed by Jeremy Corbyn,
:05:00. > :05:01.also endorsed by the cross-party International Development Select
:05:02. > :05:06.Committee, said there is edible pressure on the Prime Minister on
:05:07. > :05:10.this one. -- formidable. The humanitarian case has been strongly
:05:11. > :05:15.but by Jeremy Corbyn and others, but it is marginal. 3000 children, that
:05:16. > :05:22.would be great for them, but 37,000 migrants have come to Greece in
:05:23. > :05:27.January alone, and the mud has not even ended, ten times the number
:05:28. > :05:32.that came in last January -- the month. The problem is getting bigger
:05:33. > :05:37.and bigger, and the response has been wholly inadequate. It has, it
:05:38. > :05:44.looks marginal, but that is about as much as you can expect, until there
:05:45. > :05:48.is EU wide agreement about how to distribute what you might call the
:05:49. > :05:51.burden of the influx, but there is nothing close to that agreement and
:05:52. > :05:56.there's not even a deal between the EU and Turkey about ceiling borders
:05:57. > :06:00.and dealing with human traffickers let alone a deal within the EU about
:06:01. > :06:05.which country bears how much of the burden. Until then, you just have
:06:06. > :06:09.these improvised solutions, 3000 here, France taking a bit more, and
:06:10. > :06:13.there is no certainty that the unaccompanied children are
:06:14. > :06:17.overwhelmingly Syrian, there is the suspicion that Syrians travel as
:06:18. > :06:23.complete families and the unaccompanied children are
:06:24. > :06:26.disproportionately from Somalia, for example, similarly distress, but not
:06:27. > :06:30.the problem that they think they are dealing with. This plays into the
:06:31. > :06:35.referendum question, there is the nervousness in the in campaign, that
:06:36. > :06:39.a referendum in September, after a summer of large sums of migrants
:06:40. > :06:43.coming in, kids or otherwise, would affect the result one way or
:06:44. > :06:45.another. That is a big story, and we will come back to that at the end of
:06:46. > :06:47.the show. Last week, the long-awaited autopsy
:06:48. > :06:50.into Labour's defeat at the general The report by Margaret Beckett
:06:51. > :06:55.concluded that Ed Miliband wasn't judged to be as strong a leader
:06:56. > :06:58.as David Cameron, and that Labour had failed to shake off the myth
:06:59. > :07:01.that Labour was responsible But parallel research was also
:07:02. > :07:04.commissioned to inform the Beckett Report,
:07:05. > :07:06.and despite being completed in July, The former Labour pollster
:07:07. > :07:10.Deborah Mattinson carried out this research, and has spoken exclusively
:07:11. > :07:13.to the Sunday Politics. We are saying the Conservatives
:07:14. > :07:24.are the largest party. We all know what happened
:07:25. > :07:26.on election night. Instead of a hung parliament,
:07:27. > :07:31.David Cameron walked back into Downing Street
:07:32. > :07:33.with a majority of 12. Labour got it wrong, as well,
:07:34. > :07:36.suffering a net loss of 26 Friends, this is not the speech
:07:37. > :07:40.I wanted to give today. Ed Miliband resigned
:07:41. > :07:43.within hours, but it has taken eight and a half
:07:44. > :07:46.months for the party to publish its own inquiry
:07:47. > :07:50.into what went wrong. Margaret Beckett's report is called
:07:51. > :07:54.Learning The Lessons From Defeat. It doesn't, says one pollster,
:07:55. > :07:58.who has worked for several former I think it was a whitewash
:07:59. > :08:03.and a massive missed opportunity. Just a few weeks after the election
:08:04. > :08:06.defeat, Deborah Mattinson was commissioned
:08:07. > :08:09.by the acting leader Harriet Harman to research
:08:10. > :08:11.why Labour lost. She says the evidence was meant
:08:12. > :08:13.to feed into the Beckett I did brief Margaret
:08:14. > :08:19.Beckett so I was somewhat disappointed not to see some
:08:20. > :08:22.of that reflected back. Yes, I think she picked up
:08:23. > :08:25.on the economy but there was actually no analysis,
:08:26. > :08:28.it is reduced effectively to one And there is a lot of quite
:08:29. > :08:38.defensive stuff about the fact this does not necessarily
:08:39. > :08:41.mean that anti-austerity is wrong. "Of course we had a great business
:08:42. > :08:44.strategy, what a pity the voters "That was probably
:08:45. > :08:48.the fault of the media". Quite apologetic,
:08:49. > :08:52.lots of defensive stuff in there, but nothing that actually
:08:53. > :08:55.really shone a light on what had Do you accept that when Labour
:08:56. > :08:59.was last in power it No, I don't, and I know
:09:00. > :09:04.you might not agree with that Margaret Beckett's report
:09:05. > :09:12.acknowledges that Labour failed to shake what she
:09:13. > :09:14.describes as the myth that the party caused
:09:15. > :09:16.the financial crisis. But she concludes that Labour
:09:17. > :09:20.was not seen as anti-aspiration Deborah Mattinson says that
:09:21. > :09:24.for people in her focus groups Frankly, they did not trust Labour
:09:25. > :09:28.to manage the economy effectively, they were very
:09:29. > :09:31.concerned about that. In their minds, they
:09:32. > :09:36.are seeing a conflation between the financial crisis,
:09:37. > :09:42.which they do blame Labour for, rightly or wrongly,
:09:43. > :09:43.and their sense that Labour would waste money,
:09:44. > :09:46.their money, and run the economy Voters could not see
:09:47. > :09:53.him as Prime Minister. But Margaret Beckett
:09:54. > :09:57.concluded that Ed Miliband faced an exceptionally
:09:58. > :10:00.vitriolic and personal attack People looked at Ed Miliband
:10:01. > :10:05.and did not see him And if you look at every
:10:06. > :10:10.election since the 70s, what we see, the party that has
:10:11. > :10:13.the leader with the best ratings is the party that wins,
:10:14. > :10:17.there is no exception to that. I get it, that people weren't
:10:18. > :10:20.prejudiced against immigration, I get it and I understand
:10:21. > :10:26.the need to change. The Beckett Report acknowledges that
:10:27. > :10:29.Labour did not quite get it on issues like immigration
:10:30. > :10:33.and benefits, and that the fear of the SNP propping up a minority
:10:34. > :10:44.government scared off many voters. But Deborah Mattinson says Labour
:10:45. > :10:52.was losing support in Scotland well before the independence referendum
:10:53. > :10:55.and the surge in SNP support. Put simply, she said
:10:56. > :10:57.voters did not feel that Labour was on their side,
:10:58. > :11:04.and the party still does not I feel very concerned
:11:05. > :11:11.that the lessons will be learned and I can't see how
:11:12. > :11:14.they will be learned, because that was the vehicle,
:11:15. > :11:17.that was the moment, and if this report does not address
:11:18. > :11:19.those issues then I'm not No political party has a divine
:11:20. > :11:24.right to exist and unless Labour really listens to those voters,
:11:25. > :11:26.that it must persuade, it stands no chance
:11:27. > :11:28.of winning the next election. And we've been joined by the former
:11:29. > :11:31.Shadow Cabinet minister Michael Dugher - you might remember
:11:32. > :11:38.he was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn Deborah Mattinson says the better
:11:39. > :11:44.report is a whitewash, is she right? -- Beckett Report. That is a bit
:11:45. > :11:47.harsh, does it have all the answers, though, of course not, and I think
:11:48. > :11:52.Deborah Mattinson make some very fair observations in that piece, but
:11:53. > :11:56.what Margaret concludes in her report, it is not a massive shock to
:11:57. > :12:00.those of us that were knocking on doors last May and have thought long
:12:01. > :12:03.and hard about it since, we were not trusted enough on the economy, and
:12:04. > :12:07.that was the big issue, but also on immigration and welfare, we were
:12:08. > :12:11.seen as out of touch, and also leadership being the most important
:12:12. > :12:16.thing in any race. She makes those conclusions, in the report, and I
:12:17. > :12:20.think the key thing now, is to listen to the issues that she
:12:21. > :12:22.raises, but also listen to Debra and many others who have made a
:12:23. > :12:27.contribution since the report came out. We have got to face up to the
:12:28. > :12:32.difficult issues as to why we lost, if we are going to win again. Voters
:12:33. > :12:35.found Ed Miliband the personification of the Labour brand,
:12:36. > :12:41.that was the problem, well-meaning but ineffectual. I'm likely to
:12:42. > :12:47.deliver -- and likely to deliver on promises. Did you detect that at the
:12:48. > :12:51.time? I was very close to Ed Miliband and I gave him some advice,
:12:52. > :12:55.some of which he took and some of which he didn't. I wanted him to be
:12:56. > :13:00.a success, I saw him in private and you have strong he did beat, and
:13:01. > :13:04.often he got very unfair coverage in the media and often he did not do
:13:05. > :13:08.himself justice in his performances -- I saw him in private and how
:13:09. > :13:14.strong he did beat. The real lesson here, for any lead at the Labour
:13:15. > :13:19.Party can you have got to play to your strengths and you have got a
:13:20. > :13:25.fundamentally address your perceived weaknesses. The private polling
:13:26. > :13:30.showed the Tories were in the late, was that not a warning that things
:13:31. > :13:34.were going wrong? -- in the lead. I'm not sure how much private
:13:35. > :13:40.polling I was shown. You did not see this? The year before the election,
:13:41. > :13:43.I was appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Transport, I was not so
:13:44. > :13:49.much part of the central operations and I did not see private polling.
:13:50. > :13:53.Many of us thought that we were getting difficult conversations on
:13:54. > :13:55.the doorstep, but we were told consistently, including by the
:13:56. > :13:58.pollsters, that we were neck and neck and there was a perception that
:13:59. > :14:02.we were doing better in the marginals, as well. That turned out
:14:03. > :14:07.to be catastrophically wrong, but one of the things that is not in
:14:08. > :14:11.Margaret's report is about the organisational lessons, that does
:14:12. > :14:15.speak, if you have a million conversations, what are you doing
:14:16. > :14:19.with the data? I remember in the last two days of the campaign, I was
:14:20. > :14:24.sent to Derbyshire, Amber Valley, and in Yorkshire, to Rothwell, but I
:14:25. > :14:29.should have been sent to Morley to help Ed Balls, and Derby North to
:14:30. > :14:35.help Chris Wood this. The campaign has got to base what they do on the
:14:36. > :14:38.information, and in 2010 we took very hard decisions, six months away
:14:39. > :14:42.from polling day, based on the information we had about prioritise
:14:43. > :14:50.in resources, but are not sure that happens this time. -- I'm not sure.
:14:51. > :15:01.Deborah Mattinson looks at the boundary changes before the next
:15:02. > :15:07.election, and she thinks the Beckett Report made a failure to confront
:15:08. > :15:13.why you lost enough. Her conclusion is this, Labour's future is in
:15:14. > :15:17.profound jeopardy - is it? I think we have a massive challenge at the
:15:18. > :15:23.next election. I don't think any political party has a right to be
:15:24. > :15:27.successful in the future. I am an optimistic person. Labour, when we
:15:28. > :15:33.have got our act together, when we have been in touch with the public
:15:34. > :15:41.we have shown we can win. Is Labour's continued existence a
:15:42. > :15:47.question mark? We have got to start getting in touch with the public.
:15:48. > :15:59.One thing the report did slightly skirt around, the question over
:16:00. > :16:03.politics as an identity. People like myself have been banging on about
:16:04. > :16:08.this, not just in the weeks before the election but for months and
:16:09. > :16:12.years before, and we need to face up to that. No political party has a
:16:13. > :16:19.right to exist, but I think if Labour gets our act together, if we
:16:20. > :16:23.stop picking fights with ourselves, if we face up to the difficult
:16:24. > :16:30.issues in this report and elsewhere, we can be successful in the future.
:16:31. > :16:35.In what ways, as things stand at the moment, what ways will Labour be
:16:36. > :16:40.better, in better shape, under Jeremy Corbyn heading into the 2020
:16:41. > :16:45.election than it was in the 2015 election? What is one of the main
:16:46. > :16:54.conclusions from the Beckett Report, it said we did make some gains,
:16:55. > :16:59.1.5%, but we were stacking up area -- support in areas where we were
:17:00. > :17:03.already strong. If they think you are out of touch on immigration and
:17:04. > :17:08.welfare, you had better start talking about immigration and
:17:09. > :17:14.welfare. Jeremy Corbyn seems to want almost no limit on immigration, it
:17:15. > :17:22.is hard to detect if he would have any limits, and he is rather against
:17:23. > :17:27.welfare reforms. I'm not sure that is an election winning strategy. On
:17:28. > :17:33.immigration, I made this point to him, you have got to understand this
:17:34. > :17:36.is the second biggest issue nationally, it is the biggest issue
:17:37. > :17:45.in many constituencies including mine, and I said that many of the
:17:46. > :17:49.answers are about stopping pressure on wages and conditions. There are
:17:50. > :17:56.good centre-left solutions to these problems, about Europe dividing more
:17:57. > :18:01.help for communities facing these changes. I made the point to him, on
:18:02. > :18:06.welfare he is right to say we should be standing up to help the most
:18:07. > :18:10.vulnerable, but in my experience you only get heard on those issues if
:18:11. > :18:14.the public think you are for real in terms of wanting to be tough on
:18:15. > :18:19.people who are frankly making decisions not to go into work so you
:18:20. > :18:24.have got to get the balance right. Do you accept, given his huge
:18:25. > :18:30.support among party members, that Jeremy Corbyn will lead you into the
:18:31. > :18:37.next election? He faces a big test in May. We have seen the polls and
:18:38. > :18:41.the ratings, any big test is a real election. He faces a big test
:18:42. > :18:45.because he was clear that a left-wing agenda is the key to
:18:46. > :18:49.transforming our fortunes in Scotland, I hope he's right. We need
:18:50. > :18:53.to win in London but we have got to show we can make big gains in the
:18:54. > :18:59.rest of London as well and we have got to hold onto power in Wales as
:19:00. > :19:05.well. But even if he fails these tests, do you think there will be an
:19:06. > :19:10.attempt to remove him? We have got to get behind Jeremy and he has got
:19:11. > :19:15.to show us that he can deliver and turn things around. We need to get
:19:16. > :19:26.behind him. People are very clear about what Jeremy stands for. He has
:19:27. > :19:29.achieved remarkable cut throughs. Over the next few months we will see
:19:30. > :19:33.more of that so he has got to be given a chance because he has a huge
:19:34. > :19:37.mandate by the party members but he has got to show he can turn that
:19:38. > :19:42.into real support from the public. That means also winning the support
:19:43. > :19:46.of people who voted Conservative last time. It is not an easy
:19:47. > :19:51.challenge, we are behind him in that but he has got to show he can learn
:19:52. > :19:56.the lessons that Margaret Beckett has talked about and Debra and
:19:57. > :19:58.others as well. We have got to stop it there, thank you.
:19:59. > :20:01.The hole Labour is in is deepest in Scotland, where the once-mighty
:20:02. > :20:03.party now holds just one Westminster seat.
:20:04. > :20:05.If Jeremy Corbyn is to win the general election in 2020,
:20:06. > :20:08.he needs to claw back support from the SNP,
:20:09. > :20:11.and the first test of his appeal north of the border is coming up
:20:12. > :20:13.fast in elections to the Scottish parliament in May.
:20:14. > :20:16.Speaking to Andrew Marr this morning, the leader of the SNP took
:20:17. > :20:20.aim at Mr Corbyn, criticising a plan he's floated
:20:21. > :20:23.to keep Britain's Trident submarines minus their nuclear warheads.
:20:24. > :20:26.I wonder what you made of Jeremy Corbyn's suggestion that
:20:27. > :20:28.you could keep the Trident submarines, therefore keep the jobs
:20:29. > :20:31.in Scotland, but not have nuclear missiles on them.
:20:32. > :20:34.I think it was ridiculous and I think it's a sign of just how
:20:35. > :20:37.tortured these debates are becoming within the Labour Party.
:20:38. > :20:39.On Trident, I agree with Jeremy Corbyn.
:20:40. > :20:43.I'm not in favour of the renewal of Trident, and we might have a vote
:20:44. > :20:47.on that in the House of Commons sooner rather than later.
:20:48. > :20:54.I think the real challenge for Jeremy Corbyn is,
:20:55. > :20:57.can he get his party into the position he wants it to be
:20:58. > :21:00.in so we can have any chance at all of stopping
:21:01. > :21:04.For Labour to sit on the fence on this issue or have a free vote
:21:05. > :21:08.on this issue will leave them without a shred of credibility.
:21:09. > :21:11.And I've been joined now by the Shadow Scottish Secretary,
:21:12. > :21:22.Let's pick up on the point from Nicola Sturgeon about Trident. In
:21:23. > :21:29.Scotland the electoral choice on this is clear, if you are unilateral
:21:30. > :21:32.disarmament, you vote SNP. You couldn't vote Labour on this issue
:21:33. > :21:38.because people don't know what you stand for. The Labour Party has been
:21:39. > :21:43.clear, a motion was passed almost unanimously to reject the renewal of
:21:44. > :21:50.Trident on that policy basis. But it is not party policy. There is a
:21:51. > :21:54.policy review happening at the moment so the Scottish Labour
:21:55. > :22:02.Party's policy on this is clear. It is a Scottish election don't forget.
:22:03. > :22:07.These Trident issues are diverting us away from big issues of policy in
:22:08. > :22:15.terms of public services. The Deborah Mattinson research found
:22:16. > :22:19.Scottish voters felt abandoned by the Labour Party. When did Labour
:22:20. > :22:24.start taking Scottish voters for granted? It has been clear from a
:22:25. > :22:28.number of reports that have been done that there has been a process
:22:29. > :22:35.in the party where we have not devolved the party as much as
:22:36. > :22:38.Scotland. The Scottish party, in 1999 it was a tremendous opportunity
:22:39. > :22:52.for the Scottish Labour Party but I don't think we have caught up with
:22:53. > :23:03.that. I think under Kesia's leadership she is refreshing that.
:23:04. > :23:11.You face further electoral disasters in Holyrood in May. No one is under
:23:12. > :23:18.any illusion this will be a difficult election, but what Kesia
:23:19. > :23:21.is trying to do is get a positive policy platform together, reconnect
:23:22. > :23:25.with Scottish people, respond to what Scottish people have been
:23:26. > :23:29.saying on the doorsteps, and she's doing that on the basis of
:23:30. > :23:35.responding to what the Scottish people want. That's what people want
:23:36. > :23:42.to have. What the Shadow Cabinet was told by your own election director
:23:43. > :23:46.is that he expects you to lose all of your constituency MSPs, just as
:23:47. > :23:53.you lost all of your constituency MPs bar you last May. What can you
:23:54. > :24:04.do to avoid that? The important thing is to go back to Kezia
:24:05. > :24:09.Dugdale's policy. She wants to change the policies of the Scottish
:24:10. > :24:16.Labour Party in order for us to have a policy platform that is incredibly
:24:17. > :24:20.positive. What is the most distinctive Scottish policy
:24:21. > :24:25.initiative since Jeremy Corbyn became leader? This isn't about
:24:26. > :24:30.Jeremy Corbyn, it is about Kezia Dugdale. We have helped to buy
:24:31. > :24:35.scheme for first time buyers, we want to build 60,000 affordable
:24:36. > :24:39.homes, we want to put the 50p tax rate back in to close the
:24:40. > :24:44.educational attainment gap, they are just a few of the policies she has
:24:45. > :24:49.announced already. She is one of the few people in this election campaign
:24:50. > :24:54.actually talking about the policy issues of Scotland. Nobody is
:24:55. > :24:57.talking about these kinds of issues. Do you think that collection
:24:58. > :25:02.policies you have outlined are enough to stave off a further
:25:03. > :25:06.electoral humiliation? It is just the start of a policy platform she
:25:07. > :25:14.will be announcing in the run-up to the elections. Help to buy is a Tory
:25:15. > :25:18.policy. This is about resolving a housing crisis that has been created
:25:19. > :25:26.by an SNP government. We are not holding them to account because
:25:27. > :25:31.people are obsessing over things like polls. The transport system is
:25:32. > :25:35.creaking at the seams. This has got to be dealt with and there is a real
:25:36. > :25:40.opportunity to talk about the powers the Scottish Government currently
:25:41. > :25:46.has and new powers. Let's talk about tomorrow's Scotland. How much would
:25:47. > :25:52.a top rate 50p tax for Scotland raised? Up to 10 million, depending
:25:53. > :25:56.where you would have any change but every single penny would go into
:25:57. > :26:04.educational attainment. When the Conservatives cut the tax rate to
:26:05. > :26:08.45p, the Treasury were projecting it would cost ?3 billion a year to
:26:09. > :26:15.satisfy. That was for the whole of the UK, so 60-110,000,000 is a lot
:26:16. > :26:24.of money we can use to cut the educational attainment gap. Why is
:26:25. > :26:28.Jeremy Corbyn not cutting much ice north of the border? He has won a
:26:29. > :26:32.significant mandate within the party, he needs to win that now
:26:33. > :26:39.within the country but what we are concentrating on now is Kezia
:26:40. > :26:47.Dugdale as a new leader. I am interesting that you stress all the
:26:48. > :26:56.time Kezia Dugdale, is Jeremy Corbyn and asset or a liability in May? He
:26:57. > :26:59.is an asset because she wants us to invest in public services, he wants
:27:00. > :27:05.to use the powers in the Scottish bill to transform the Scottish
:27:06. > :27:13.Parliament... So why are the polls, if you have got Kezia Dugdale and
:27:14. > :27:19.Jeremy Corbyn doing all the right things, why are the polls so dire
:27:20. > :27:23.for you in Scotland? We will fight for every single vote and seat, we
:27:24. > :27:27.fight to win every election but whilst we are talking about polls
:27:28. > :27:30.and not holding the Scottish Government to account for a dreadful
:27:31. > :27:35.record in Government for eight years and not talking about positive
:27:36. > :27:39.policies being put forward, we will not get any traction in the polls.
:27:40. > :27:44.Let's get this campaign onto real issues that ordinary Scots want to
:27:45. > :27:48.talk about on the doorsteps, which is about holding the Government to
:27:49. > :27:53.account for a dreadful track record, and get some policies on there that
:27:54. > :27:58.says to the people the Scottish Labour Party has changed and we can
:27:59. > :28:01.talk about tomorrow's Scotland and how we can transform people's lives.
:28:02. > :28:03.Thank you. The huge influx of migrants
:28:04. > :28:06.into the EU from Syria and elsewhere is putting the future
:28:07. > :28:08.of the EU in "grave danger", that was the stark warning
:28:09. > :28:10.from the French Prime Minister Tomorrow, EU interior ministers
:28:11. > :28:14.will discuss a possible two-year suspension of the Schengen system
:28:15. > :28:15.of passport-free travel. It all comes as David Cameron seeks
:28:16. > :28:18.to put the finishing touches to a new deal for the UK
:28:19. > :28:21.inside the EU before But how is the migrant crisis
:28:22. > :28:26.affecting his renegotiation? Since January 2015, nearly 1.1
:28:27. > :28:29.million migrants have arrived in Europe, the vast
:28:30. > :28:31.majority coming by sea. The International Monetary Fund
:28:32. > :28:35.estimates that nearly 4 million migrants will have reached
:28:36. > :28:41.the EU by the end of 2017. Tomorrow, EU interior ministers
:28:42. > :28:44.will discuss a possible suspension of the passport-free Schengen area
:28:45. > :28:46.and the re-introduction of border The EU is also considering tearing
:28:47. > :28:55.up the so-called Dublin Convention and introducing a new dispersal
:28:56. > :28:57.scheme to distribute migrants more It's an extra headache
:28:58. > :29:04.for David Cameron as he seeks to renegotiate the terms
:29:05. > :29:09.of our membership of the EU. The Prime Minister's preferred
:29:10. > :29:12.option is a four-year ban on new EU migrant workers claiming
:29:13. > :29:16.in-work benefits. But that's unlikely to satisfy many
:29:17. > :29:20.Conservative backbenchers. Former Cabinet minister Liam Fox,
:29:21. > :29:24.who has already said he will campaign to leave the EU,
:29:25. > :29:26.said yesterday that he "didn't expect a British prime minister
:29:27. > :29:30.to have to take the political begging bowl around the capitals
:29:31. > :29:33.of Europe just to change our own Over the next three weekends
:29:34. > :29:40.we will be staging three debates Joining me now to discuss
:29:41. > :29:45.immigration and the EU are the Ukip MEP Diane James, who's campaigning
:29:46. > :29:47.for Britain to leave the EU, and the Conservative MP
:29:48. > :30:04.Damian Green, who supports The French prime ministers as the
:30:05. > :30:10.future the EU is in grave danger, so why would we want to stay in it? --
:30:11. > :30:13.Prime Minister says. It is useful to as, it makes us safer and more
:30:14. > :30:17.secure and more prosperous and therefore it is worth saving, from
:30:18. > :30:23.our perspective and to the other member countries. Why does it make
:30:24. > :30:26.us more secure? The way that we cooperate with other European
:30:27. > :30:30.countries, the European institutions, things like the
:30:31. > :30:35.European arrest warrant, data share, these are very useful to our police
:30:36. > :30:39.and security services. We share data with the United States, as well. But
:30:40. > :30:45.not on the same automatic basis as we do with Europe. There is
:30:46. > :30:49.automatic sharing of intelligence between Britain and the United
:30:50. > :30:53.States. There is can we have a separate treaty with them, it is not
:30:54. > :30:57.as automatic and quick. -- there is, we have a separate treaty. We can
:30:58. > :31:05.change information within minutes with other European countries, and
:31:06. > :31:12.it takes days and weeks with other countries, and that means in cases
:31:13. > :31:15.of terrorism and sadly we live in a dangerous world, with global
:31:16. > :31:23.terrorism, that kind of European cooperation is increasingly
:31:24. > :31:26.important. Diane, we face a migration crisis, what is your
:31:27. > :31:33.solution, to turn Britain into a fortress Britain? No, it isn't, but
:31:34. > :31:38.it is to regain border control for the United Kingdom, and that is a
:31:39. > :31:42.position endorsed by a number of countries, and number of member
:31:43. > :31:46.states across the EU, you have five countries which every imposed border
:31:47. > :31:50.controls to some extent. There is still free movement of people.
:31:51. > :31:53.France said last week they will extend their border control, their
:31:54. > :31:57.passport control as an emergency measure because of the terrorist
:31:58. > :32:03.attacks in Paris. Border control is needed because under the current
:32:04. > :32:07.system freedom of movement, people, services, transport, that also means
:32:08. > :32:11.freedom of movement for terrorists and weapons, that come from the
:32:12. > :32:15.Balkan states. We don't have border controls? Yes, but not sufficient,
:32:16. > :32:20.if someone comes in from the Mediterranean states or from the
:32:21. > :32:25.Balkan states, they have gained entry into the European member zone.
:32:26. > :32:33.They can't then move around. If they get their passport, ultimately...
:32:34. > :32:37.That can take ten years. It is five years in Germany, it can be granted
:32:38. > :32:41.sooner if the Dublin agreement is changed and asylum seekers get a
:32:42. > :32:51.faster processing, they can then come to the United Kingdom. It
:32:52. > :32:54.faster processing, they can then things that Niger Farage was saying
:32:55. > :33:02.about the scenes in Cologne, that was wrong. -- Nigel. The out
:33:03. > :33:05.campaign is saying that border controls are what we need, strong
:33:06. > :33:08.border controls, and pulling out of Europe would have the practical
:33:09. > :33:12.effect, our border controls which act have a, thanks to the treaty
:33:13. > :33:17.with the French government, they would certainly come back to Dover
:33:18. > :33:22.-- our border controls which we have at Calais. Migrants would find it
:33:23. > :33:27.much easier to get to this country and claim asylum here. But if they
:33:28. > :33:33.couldn't get in, they did not qualify, we would have the power to
:33:34. > :33:37.deport them? We were, after a legal process, but they would be stopped
:33:38. > :33:41.not at Calais, it would be at Dover, when they are in Britain, and once
:33:42. > :33:45.they are here they can claim asylum and because we have proper legal
:33:46. > :33:49.processes it takes a lot of time and expense to deal with that. He has
:33:50. > :33:54.all the accused me of getting my facts wrong, but he has got his
:33:55. > :33:57.facts wrong. The agreement in terms of stationing our teams and our
:33:58. > :34:02.support staff and control, in the French ports, that is a France UK
:34:03. > :34:05.agreement, it has nothing to do with the European Union. If you are
:34:06. > :34:12.suggesting that the agreement between France and the United
:34:13. > :34:14.Kingdom gets torn up because we leave the EU, that is fanciful and
:34:15. > :34:20.misleading and I don't agree with you. France signed the treatment
:34:21. > :34:24.with us as a fellow member of the EU and the French interior minister has
:34:25. > :34:27.said that they would look at the treaty, of course it would be at
:34:28. > :34:33.risk, do you think the people of Calais want that camp on their
:34:34. > :34:38.doorstep? Of course not. The French are doing us a favour. How would the
:34:39. > :34:44.renegotiation by the Prime Minister help address any of this? The area
:34:45. > :34:48.of renegotiation and this is about the extra pull factor that comes
:34:49. > :34:53.from the perception that the British benefits system is easier to access
:34:54. > :34:58.compared with other countries, and therefore there are people coming
:34:59. > :35:01.here simply to make the benefits system and I think what many people
:35:02. > :35:06.think about immigration, they are moral axed about people coming here
:35:07. > :35:10.to work and pay taxes but they don't like people coming to use the
:35:11. > :35:16.welfare system -- they are more relaxed. But it has been said this
:35:17. > :35:21.will not have a big impact, you might marginalise one pull factor,
:35:22. > :35:25.but with rises in the national minimum wage, you have increased the
:35:26. > :35:31.pull factor on the other hand. It's a boiler fairness, that is what --
:35:32. > :35:36.that is a boiler fairness, that is what people want... It is unlikely
:35:37. > :35:42.to have a big impact. This will have very little impact on the numbers. I
:35:43. > :35:46.think people can make a distinction between those who are coming here to
:35:47. > :35:52.work, who benefit our economy and benefit all of us. But we have
:35:53. > :35:54.agreed it is unlikely, even if it is fair, it is unlikely to have any
:35:55. > :36:02.impact on the numbers. We don't know. The OBR has had a good guess.
:36:03. > :36:08.They are guessing, it is a guess. Nigel Farage said he would cut
:36:09. > :36:13.immigration even if that meant lower economic growth, do you agree? There
:36:14. > :36:19.are two parts to your question, George Osborne has predicated his
:36:20. > :36:24.fiscal strategy on high numbers of immigration, but we have done this
:36:25. > :36:27.on individuals who come here on a points system to deliver real value
:36:28. > :36:33.to this country, who are not subsidised by the tax credit option
:36:34. > :36:37.and who actually meet the needs that we have in the United Kingdom, and
:36:38. > :36:42.currently, as we know, we want engineers and medics and nurses and
:36:43. > :36:45.lawyers. Ukip strategy has never been to stop those individuals
:36:46. > :36:51.coming, but what we are saying, the impact of low skilled immigration on
:36:52. > :36:57.this country is negative. That is our position. Even if it meant slow
:36:58. > :37:04.economic growth, you would still cut the numbers? It would not mean
:37:05. > :37:07.slower economic growth. We have made our position very clear in terms of
:37:08. > :37:14.the value of the money that we would not be paying in terms of membership
:37:15. > :37:17.of the EU, coming back to the United Kingdom's economy, and balancing the
:37:18. > :37:22.whole position, that would be a positive for us as a country. The
:37:23. > :37:28.Prime Minister has refused to leave a group of 40 Eurosceptic
:37:29. > :37:33.backbenchers in the Conservative Party, who want to asking to do much
:37:34. > :37:37.more. Should he not make them? The Prime Minister meets backbenchers
:37:38. > :37:40.all the time. He has not meant this group, they wrote to him in November
:37:41. > :37:46.and he has not met them. -- he has not met this group. Anyone who would
:37:47. > :37:50.like to meet the Prime Minister has ample opportunities to do so, I'm a
:37:51. > :37:54.backbencher, I can speak to the Prime Minister, and all of these
:37:55. > :37:59.points have been raised. It is possible that this story is slightly
:38:00. > :38:02.overblown. Thank you very much. We will be coming back to these stories
:38:03. > :38:04.in the weeks ahead. And next week we'll be debating
:38:05. > :38:07.the economic effects of leaving It's just gone 11.35,
:38:08. > :38:10.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:11. > :38:13.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:14. > :38:18.minutes, the Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday
:38:19. > :38:33.Politics where you are. Coming up shortly, three and a half
:38:34. > :38:36.months out, Zac Goldsmith has done a formal launch of his mayoral
:38:37. > :38:42.campaign with a 4-point action plan, he will be here to chat about that
:38:43. > :38:49.in a moment. Also joining this week, David Lambie, the MP who helped he
:38:50. > :38:57.would be Labour's man from London -- David Lammy who hoped. You are
:38:58. > :39:03.trying to improve suburban rail services for London. The creation of
:39:04. > :39:08.what will be called a London suburban Metro service, with more
:39:09. > :39:11.frequent services, more reliable trains, and better interchanges and
:39:12. > :39:15.increase capacity, I sound like a press release, but you would welcome
:39:16. > :39:22.this question not the old North London line which is running better,
:39:23. > :39:24.even though there are still delays, but the integration with the
:39:25. > :39:28.Underground network has improved, and there are swathes of North
:39:29. > :39:33.London and stations like Canning Street, bits of Clapham Junction,
:39:34. > :39:37.that need to be part of the wider Greater London we know. Which we
:39:38. > :39:42.make into this Orange branded overground line. If it is all
:39:43. > :39:46.Orange, you cannot distinguish one line from the next! But what you
:39:47. > :39:51.need is integration so you can usual Oyster card across this, and there
:39:52. > :39:54.can be horrendous delays, especially in the south, and fix the sense of
:39:55. > :40:01.London as Greater London and not just in London. You would welcome
:40:02. > :40:06.this? Huge costs involved. Huge complexity about how you get more
:40:07. > :40:11.services on these lines without disrupting the ones who are coming
:40:12. > :40:14.in from wider outside London. Absolutely, we would really benefit,
:40:15. > :40:17.we have a number of suburban services and also services coming
:40:18. > :40:21.from the south coast. We have massive problems with overcrowding
:40:22. > :40:27.and with insufficiency of services, and there will be issues with how
:40:28. > :40:30.the contract for TFL actually works with whoever wins the franchise for
:40:31. > :40:35.the south-western service, and we might be one of the first areas to
:40:36. > :40:38.benefit. This is just a consultation, before we start
:40:39. > :40:42.running away with this, this only affects a limited number of lines,
:40:43. > :40:48.not lines which are starting in Brighton, just the inner services.
:40:49. > :40:52.Precisely, but they are used by a lot of people and there will be a
:40:53. > :40:56.lot of support for this. David was talking about previous campaigns,
:40:57. > :41:03.and there is a lot of support for this. Now we can move on. Boris
:41:04. > :41:08.Johnson's mayoralty is like a washing machine entering its final
:41:09. > :41:14.spin cycle, and attention turns to who will succeed him, Zac Goldsmith
:41:15. > :41:18.is behind Sadiq Khan of Labour according to the little available
:41:19. > :41:23.polling so far, but this week he held a formal launch of his action
:41:24. > :41:26.plan from London. Behind in the polls but taking the fight to
:41:27. > :41:30.Labour, that was the message from Zac Goldsmith's policy launch this
:41:31. > :41:35.week. I'm launching my action plan from London, more homes, better
:41:36. > :41:41.transport, cleaner air, safer streets, this is what I will deliver
:41:42. > :41:45.if I'm elected in May, no doubt. He says he wants to double
:41:46. > :41:48.house-building to 50,000 new homes and year, increase capacity on the
:41:49. > :41:54.transport network and the number green spaces in London, and keeping
:41:55. > :41:59.officers on the street. -- new homes year. Labour were quick to
:42:00. > :42:03.criticise, saying the launch was thin on Peter, making no mention of
:42:04. > :42:07.the number of affordable homes or social housing he would build, and
:42:08. > :42:13.containing no detail about rising transport fares -- thin on detail.
:42:14. > :42:18.The difference between myself and my rival, I can deliver, I can hold the
:42:19. > :42:23.government to account and get a good deal on the government, like shown I
:42:24. > :42:25.can do that. He says by working with his Conservative colleagues he has
:42:26. > :42:29.managed to secure changes to government policy already, meaning
:42:30. > :42:32.every high-value council home sold under the new right to buy will be
:42:33. > :42:37.replaced by two new affordable homes. And a commitment that all
:42:38. > :42:41.trials but the London services will need half of trade union members to
:42:42. > :42:50.vote for industrial action before a striking go-ahead. -- all trials but
:42:51. > :42:56.the London services. -- transport for London services. This is
:42:57. > :42:59.posturing. We have returned a ballot result of 93% from 83% turnout,
:43:00. > :43:04.twice the dress shall they are setting out, and so it Zac Goldsmith
:43:05. > :43:07.would like to be taken seriously as a candidate, you should be thinking
:43:08. > :43:12.about how to improve industrial nations, not just posturing for
:43:13. > :43:21.political sound bites. -- twice the threshold by setting. Both Labour
:43:22. > :43:23.and Conservatives are accused of making this campaign about
:43:24. > :43:30.personalities and not policy. In what some have said is a campaign
:43:31. > :43:37.short on new ideas. Zac Goldsmith is here. One new idea that did, from
:43:38. > :43:41.what you said, this week, the idea of banning foreigners, that is what
:43:42. > :43:46.the headline was, that you would offer to sell properties built on
:43:47. > :43:56.public land in London, to Londoners first. Family properties can you do?
:43:57. > :44:02.-- how many. In all? Yes. We need about 50,000 a year. We think on TFL
:44:03. > :44:05.land, the Laing commission has not reported yet, we do not know how
:44:06. > :44:11.much land there is at the moment -- the land commission. If you put all
:44:12. > :44:15.the TFL land together it will be the equivalent of the Borough of Camden,
:44:16. > :44:20.we think, and the figure we have been given is 15,000 a year on
:44:21. > :44:27.mayoral land. Not 50,000, as was reported by some newspapers. Yes, I
:44:28. > :44:32.saw that. You seems to endorse that. 50,000 homes we need each year. On
:44:33. > :44:39.this public land, you have a pretty good idea? We are talking about TFL
:44:40. > :44:44.land, not GLA. TFL planned, they say they can build 10,000 homes in ten
:44:45. > :44:50.years, Zac Goldsmith says he can do 15,000 on this home in four years.
:44:51. > :44:54.That is based on all kinds of assumptions which I challenge, we
:44:55. > :44:59.could extend the Sutton trembling, to deliver 20,000 homes, but the
:45:00. > :45:03.money is not their -- the Sutton tram link. You could extend that
:45:04. > :45:07.line in four years? We could borrow against future property taxes, that
:45:08. > :45:11.is why I took the Chancellor to Sutton to make this case, I cannot
:45:12. > :45:15.say that we have one Zeidan, but he came to hear the wings, to hear the
:45:16. > :45:17.case, and that is a very good sign -- I cannot say we have won the hard
:45:18. > :45:32.men. Very ambitious. If it wasn't difficult, it would
:45:33. > :45:40.have already been done. Are these all going to be to buy? There will
:45:41. > :45:47.be a mixture. You will need to have two rent there as well. I said on my
:45:48. > :45:53.list of priorities that you need to have affordable, market,
:45:54. > :45:57.intermediate and in each of those categories for sale and for rent.
:45:58. > :46:01.Are you saying it should be for people who have lived and worked in
:46:02. > :46:08.London for three years? What's the deal? All of the details of this
:46:09. > :46:16.will emerge in the manifesto? Have they been worked out? Mostly worked
:46:17. > :46:20.out. For example pocket homes are sold to Londoners, this was a
:46:21. > :46:27.condition imposed by some of the boroughs in which they operate so
:46:28. > :46:33.for Ealing residents they are selling for around ?150,000 without
:46:34. > :46:38.subsidy. In Camden they are around ?240,000. For people who can show
:46:39. > :46:50.they have been resident here for three years. Not working as well?
:46:51. > :46:56.Yes, for three years. Not necessarily working as well? We
:46:57. > :47:02.haven't briefed any details because we will release them in the
:47:03. > :47:08.manifesto. There's no point using up valuable public land building homes,
:47:09. > :47:15.then having them bought by... Presumably EU citizens could apply
:47:16. > :47:20.for this? Yes. Presumably a Chinese millionaire whose daughter is
:47:21. > :47:23.working here as a chemist. We are trying to prevent a situation where
:47:24. > :47:31.a valuable public assets are developed, the homes are built on
:47:32. > :47:35.board by overseas investors. It may be an exaggerated political concern
:47:36. > :47:40.in some quarters but it is causing massive resentment across London.
:47:41. > :47:46.Boris Johnson says there is no real problem, it involves a tiny
:47:47. > :47:50.percentage. We don't have the figures on that. I don't agree it is
:47:51. > :47:55.not a problem, I think it is a problem, and a cause of real
:47:56. > :47:59.resentment. In surgery I had someone earning more than double the average
:48:00. > :48:05.London salary, moving out of London because he cannot afford a home.
:48:06. > :48:13.That is a crisis. In your last year you will be able to be building
:48:14. > :48:19.50,000 homes where about half of that, you say a significant number
:48:20. > :48:26.will be affordable rent. What is your minimum target? I think the
:48:27. > :48:29.Olympic Park is a good indication, a Labour-controlled council. Over
:48:30. > :48:37.10,000 homes have been built and it is based on the criteria for a third
:48:38. > :48:45.affordable, the third intermediate, and a third market. So that will be
:48:46. > :48:51.your model? It is a model but I'm nervous of targets because they
:48:52. > :48:55.don't work. Ken Livingstone, I'm going to make a political point, it
:48:56. > :48:59.made ambitious targets around affordability, didn't get close to
:49:00. > :49:05.meeting them, Boris Johnson made no targets... There is an assumption
:49:06. > :49:10.that 25% at least should be affordable. Give me a commitment on
:49:11. > :49:16.what percentage you would guarantee would be for affordable rent. I'm
:49:17. > :49:23.not going to give a commitment. Or and aspirations. The Olympic Park is
:49:24. > :49:28.a model that works. The entire emphasis of my focus on housing will
:49:29. > :49:31.be to deal with this issue of affordability, where Londoners on
:49:32. > :49:37.average salaries cannot afford to live in their own city. That is a
:49:38. > :49:44.social and business crisis, so the entire emphasis on my housing
:49:45. > :49:52.programme will be to enable Londoners... The point you made on
:49:53. > :49:56.Tuesday, you made again today, is that you are the person through
:49:57. > :50:00.persuasion and cooperation with the Government, you can persuade the
:50:01. > :50:04.Government to deliver on really important things on housing, three
:50:05. > :50:09.of them. You have said you will get two properties built for one that
:50:10. > :50:14.gets sold off under these rights to buy plans. You haven't got a
:50:15. > :50:18.commitment they will be rented, you haven't got a commitment. The money
:50:19. > :50:23.raised from the sale of properties will stay in London. These are the
:50:24. > :50:28.crucial areas and you haven't persuaded anyone. If you're asking
:50:29. > :50:33.me to justify the entire housing bill, I'm not going to do that. I
:50:34. > :50:38.want to knock that Bill into shape so it works for London. But you
:50:39. > :50:42.haven't done that. They want a guaranteed before we go to the polls
:50:43. > :50:47.that if you keep that money in London and you get those two
:50:48. > :50:52.properties, they are for rent and in the same area as the one they lost.
:50:53. > :51:00.It is not a perfect bill but I have massively improved it for London.
:51:01. > :51:04.Even organisations like Shelter will say so, even organisations that are
:51:05. > :51:09.massively unhappy with the bill. I have assured that the money will not
:51:10. > :51:19.be siphoned away to the disadvantage of London. We keep 7% of our taxes,
:51:20. > :51:23.but in this instance it means we have a guarantee now. It is a
:51:24. > :51:33.guarantee that every high-value council homes sold will bring two
:51:34. > :51:46.affordable homes being built. It doesn't amount to much. How is Zac
:51:47. > :51:51.defining affordability? How many houses? Do you believe in social
:51:52. > :51:58.houses? Why have you extended right to buy? These are the big questions
:51:59. > :52:02.and you are not answering them. Social housing is of course an
:52:03. > :52:06.extraordinarily part of London's housing mix, and on average across
:52:07. > :52:11.London nearly a third of our homes are social houses. The reality is
:52:12. > :52:23.the constituent I met this morning earning over the average salary will
:52:24. > :52:26.not be able to afford houses. So over the next four years your
:52:27. > :52:35.emphasis will be very much on houses to sell. Affordability is absolutely
:52:36. > :52:42.crucial. But you are not giving any assurances about social rented. If
:52:43. > :52:46.you are going to reduce this argument down to market versus
:52:47. > :52:50.social, you will miss out the majority of people in the middle.
:52:51. > :52:54.When viewers hear you say affordable, they want to know what
:52:55. > :52:58.you mean by that and you are not defining it. They want to know
:52:59. > :53:03.genuinely how you will build and where you will get the money. Sadiq
:53:04. > :53:15.Khan said he will get a bond issued. Where is the money coming from?
:53:16. > :53:20.James and I part represent Kingston. If you put a 20% discount on one of
:53:21. > :53:23.those homes they are not affordable. The legal definition is the one you
:53:24. > :53:27.have just given but I don't believe you can have a legal definition that
:53:28. > :53:35.is meaningful for Londoners because London is too diverse. I gave an
:53:36. > :53:38.example of pocket homes. The 20% discount in one area will be
:53:39. > :53:44.meaningful, in another area it won't. What do you want in your neck
:53:45. > :53:50.of the woods? Do you want to see the emphasis shift towards that
:53:51. > :53:54.ownership? Are you not at all concerned about how little emphasis
:53:55. > :54:04.there might be on affordable or social rented housing? I don't think
:54:05. > :54:07.there is a lack of concern. In Kingston, the biggest issue is
:54:08. > :54:18.housing. Our authority is building more housing. It is building housing
:54:19. > :54:22.at 40% of the market rate? Yes, and they have plans for a scheme that
:54:23. > :54:26.will involve making our current state higher density with higher
:54:27. > :54:32.quality homes. Are you concerned spare bits of land will be used for
:54:33. > :54:43.starter homes? Local authorities will be hamstrung in getting money
:54:44. > :54:47.for affordable homes? I know people whose kids are desperate for starter
:54:48. > :54:54.homes, it is important we have them, it is about a mix of affordable to
:54:55. > :55:01.buy and affordable to rent. Where are you, what kind of commitment? We
:55:02. > :55:16.had a Conservative MP here last week who said what -- to listen out to
:55:17. > :55:21.you for a statement on fares. I know that I face an election in 13 or 14
:55:22. > :55:26.weeks' time and a lot of people would like to hear me say I will cut
:55:27. > :55:31.the cost of travel, but I know that if I were to make that pledge either
:55:32. > :55:35.I would break it if I got elected or it would be catastrophic for London
:55:36. > :55:39.if I didn't break it. We have been talking about housing but the only
:55:40. > :55:45.way we will be able to deliver the housing solution is by unlocking
:55:46. > :55:52.land... Which is why I'm wondering if you will let people know, we need
:55:53. > :55:56.to expect realistically... Realistically we cannot expect fares
:55:57. > :56:01.to stay where they are. Can we expect them to go up by a rate above
:56:02. > :56:07.inflation? We haven't been through the figures of course, which is why
:56:08. > :56:11.I'm resisting making a pledge. Sadiq Khan has not been through the
:56:12. > :56:14.figures either. I don't believe any of the other candidates have had
:56:15. > :56:20.access, let alone had time to go through the figures. I'm not making
:56:21. > :56:24.a pledge because it is not an honest thing to do. I have not met the
:56:25. > :56:29.Labour figure in London who believes it is possible to freeze fares as
:56:30. > :56:33.Sadiq Khan has promised he would. We will be speaking to him next week
:56:34. > :56:40.and we will try to establish that. ?2 billion out of the budget, so
:56:41. > :56:44.what will you then not do? Is it the overground to Barking, is it the
:56:45. > :56:51.night tube? Why aren't you saying to government you cannot afford to take
:56:52. > :56:56.something out? You work within the envelope set by government. I
:56:57. > :57:01.thought you were independent, I thought you would stand up and be
:57:02. > :57:08.awkward. My job is to make sure it is as big an envelope as possible. I
:57:09. > :57:12.have protected the police budget... Very briefly because everyone is
:57:13. > :57:17.talking about the possibility of the European referendum being in June.
:57:18. > :57:22.Everyone knows you are Eurosceptic, but what do you say? Do you have a
:57:23. > :57:30.view about the timing of that? Because you need to get people
:57:31. > :57:35.focused on your contest? London faces a massive decision in May. We
:57:36. > :57:39.boomed for eight years under Boris but people are priced out of their
:57:40. > :57:46.own city. Do we want to make those successes work for everyone in
:57:47. > :57:50.London or make a big risk? That will be my focus. And when you take it to
:57:51. > :57:56.London we hope you will come back and take it to our viewers.
:57:57. > :58:01.Come back between now and May. So, what else has been happening in the
:58:02. > :58:07.political sphere? Here is what, in 60 seconds.
:58:08. > :58:10.?20 million will be spent on giving Muslim women who cannot speak
:58:11. > :58:16.English the chance to learn the language. The aim, the Government
:58:17. > :58:17.claims, is to create a more cohesive society and counter extremism.
:58:18. > :58:26.London colleges say society and counter extremism.
:58:27. > :58:31.million and new money is just replacing what has been lost.
:58:32. > :58:38.Transport for London has rejected proposals that would have severely
:58:39. > :58:45.restricted Uber. The private hire company has proposed a ban on apps
:58:46. > :58:48.being able to show where their nearby vehicles were.
:58:49. > :58:53.According to the office for National Statistics, overall crime in London
:58:54. > :58:58.is up 5% on violent crime and sexual offences have risen by over 20% in
:58:59. > :59:11.the capital in the 12 months recorded to September 20 15. Gun
:59:12. > :59:16.crime in London is up 10%. David, Muslim women, help with their
:59:17. > :59:23.language skills, what do you think? It is an old issue. We had great
:59:24. > :59:28.funding under Labour, they were cut savagely, they don't exist any more
:59:29. > :59:35.across London and the country. Worse than that, they have cut the FE
:59:36. > :59:38.budget by half in some constituencies so to talk about
:59:39. > :59:43.giving Muslim women in English when all of the money has disappeared,
:59:44. > :59:46.but also when you are not demonstrating you understand the
:59:47. > :59:50.complexities of these women, many of whom speak wonderful English in
:59:51. > :59:58.fact, I think is degrading, patronising and just dishonest. Do
:59:59. > :00:02.you feel that as well? Not at all, I think it is a positive announcement.
:00:03. > :00:06.It is a shame David does not back the additional funding for English
:00:07. > :00:21.language teaching which is really important for social integration. A
:00:22. > :00:26.quick word on Uber, are you a fan? I normally take the train, but I think
:00:27. > :00:32.you need both really. Black Caps are great for me when hail one in
:00:33. > :00:36.somewhere like Kingston, Uber will be generally more convenient. Black
:00:37. > :00:45.Caps are iconic, we wouldn't want to see them go. Uber have filled an
:00:46. > :00:52.important gap in the market. They don't pay any tax in this country. I
:00:53. > :00:55.don't know if that is true or not so I can't count to you. We are seeing
:00:56. > :01:03.many black cab companies disappearing. I don't buy a complete
:01:04. > :01:09.deregulated market. We should be very concerned that TfL's small
:01:10. > :01:13.attempts to rein this back have been undermined this week.
:01:14. > :01:18.Thank you. We are hoping next week we will have Sadiq Khan, Labour's
:01:19. > :01:24.candidate in the hot seat, until then, back to you, Andrew.
:01:25. > :01:27.Can David Cameron keep his party together in the run-up
:01:28. > :01:33.Will the SNP stymie the PM's plans for a summer vote?
:01:34. > :01:35.And who will go along to John McDonnell's economics roadshow?
:01:36. > :01:51.Nick, Damian Green downplayed the 40 Eurosceptics who have written to the
:01:52. > :01:59.Prime Minister, asking for a meeting. Is he right? Is there a
:02:00. > :02:02.serious division for the Tories? It was a very diplomatic response from
:02:03. > :02:05.Damian Green, but what Downing Street would say about the letter
:02:06. > :02:09.from John Barron, what is the point of meeting him and his 40 merry
:02:10. > :02:12.friends, because I want to get Britain out and they have always
:02:13. > :02:16.wanted to do so and the demands they are tabling in that letter, to have
:02:17. > :02:20.primacy of the UK Parliament over EU law is not in the negotiation and is
:02:21. > :02:25.not going to happen, but there is a port in point. David Cameron was
:02:26. > :02:30.dismissive of John Barron in the House of Commons and he needs to
:02:31. > :02:35.maybe occasionally show a bit more charm and listening to those kind of
:02:36. > :02:38.people. -- important point. They are on the other side of the prime
:02:39. > :02:42.Minster, but he has got to manage the process carefully and he needs
:02:43. > :02:47.to avoid a civil war, and he can avoid that if all sides are
:02:48. > :02:51.respected in this debate. Presumably the 40 that signed our hard-core
:02:52. > :02:58.Eurosceptic but there are more Eurosceptics. Even if David Cameron
:02:59. > :03:04.gets all of what he is asking for, how many Conservative MPs will still
:03:05. > :03:09.want to come out? Going back to the John Barenboim, the 40 that have
:03:10. > :03:14.signed that letter, Downing Street have put them to one side -- John
:03:15. > :03:18.Barron point. The battle for the party, what do you do with those,
:03:19. > :03:28.maybe a third of the party, that would be minded to leave, maybe
:03:29. > :03:31.100-100 and 50 MPs, George Osborne was talking about emergency brakes
:03:32. > :03:36.on legislation, if things are coming through from Brussels which the
:03:37. > :03:40.British don't want. They still think that the negotiation really is in
:03:41. > :03:44.play and what we have to do is try and pick off moderate Eurosceptics
:03:45. > :03:50.and give them a package which they can get behind and then we need to
:03:51. > :03:55.accept that there will be 40 hard-core people that we could never
:03:56. > :03:59.placate. In the David Cameron nightmare, that is the potential
:04:00. > :04:03.backdrop to the referendum, the French Prime Minister has said
:04:04. > :04:07.Europe is in grave danger and we have had President task of the
:04:08. > :04:12.council say that we have only got a couple of months to sort out the
:04:13. > :04:16.immigration issue -- Donald Tusk. The Dutch Prime Minister has given
:04:17. > :04:20.warnings, as well. If there's a sense that Europe is falling
:04:21. > :04:24.especially regarding migration, Schengen is swept away, as it might
:04:25. > :04:29.be tomorrow, that is not a way to win a referendum. It is a huge
:04:30. > :04:33.advantage for the Brexit campaign and it distinguishes them from their
:04:34. > :04:37.predecessors of 20 years ago, leaving the EU back then was seen as
:04:38. > :04:41.a pessimistic thing to do, but now you can almost support Brexit
:04:42. > :04:44.because you think, why chain yourself to a continent which is
:04:45. > :04:51.losing, when there's so much dynamism in the world elsewhere? The
:04:52. > :04:54.characteristic of the Brexit campaign is the challenge David
:04:55. > :04:59.Cameron has got to summer, it cannot say they are entirely insular any
:05:00. > :05:06.more. -- has got to surmount. I thought the internal Tory problem
:05:07. > :05:11.with the explosive, if not a big split, but like a rolling crisis
:05:12. > :05:15.from the 1990s, but I no longer think that is true, the fact they
:05:16. > :05:19.know they can expect to be in government until at least 2025, they
:05:20. > :05:23.can maintain basic adhesion because of the weakness of the Labour Party
:05:24. > :05:30.and that is a contrast with the 90s -- basic cohesion. Cameron will look
:05:31. > :05:35.like he is losing control, but there will not be anything existential
:05:36. > :05:39.going on for the party. We believe the government is anxious to get it
:05:40. > :05:44.out of the way by the end of June, may be the first week of July.
:05:45. > :05:47.Nicola Sturgeon said some interesting things on the Andrew
:05:48. > :05:54.Marr show, about the timetable for the referendum. We had a negative
:05:55. > :06:00.feeling campaign from the no campaign and they almost lost, in
:06:01. > :06:03.the referendum for Europe, the campaigns are much closer to start
:06:04. > :06:09.with, and if the in campaign falls into the trap of the no campaign I
:06:10. > :06:14.fear it will lose. Nicola Sturgeon has said that she does not want a
:06:15. > :06:19.June referendum and she feels that is too soon. You can say, that is
:06:20. > :06:25.the view of the First Minister, she doesn't have a vote in parliament,
:06:26. > :06:31.but it have more significance. I was briefed last week by senior Scottish
:06:32. > :06:35.Nationalist who said this, "Many conservatives will not want a June
:06:36. > :06:41.referendum and the risk epics want more time to layout their case --
:06:42. > :06:51.Eurosceptics want more time to layout their case". The Scottish
:06:52. > :06:57.Nationalists will not help to vote by voting for a June referendum. The
:06:58. > :06:59.SNP could try and turn this into a vote in the house and then it
:07:00. > :07:05.depends on what Labour do, do they want to have it in June or later? I
:07:06. > :07:09.think the Eurosceptics are so focused on trying to get this
:07:10. > :07:16.referendum through, I don't think them as long as they feel they have
:07:17. > :07:19.the campaign in time that they want, the four-month period, I think they
:07:20. > :07:25.will go for it. I'm not sure that is true. Given the divisions in the
:07:26. > :07:32.Eurosceptics side at the moment, and the out campaign, I think they need
:07:33. > :07:35.longer to get there ducks in a row and they feel the best time for them
:07:36. > :07:43.to fight is after there has been another major migration crisis in
:07:44. > :07:50.the summer, people will not on their side of the ardent when that
:07:51. > :07:56.happens. That might be true. -- of the argument. But they cannot argue
:07:57. > :07:59.for a delay in some ways, but I do feel that Nicola Sturgeon's
:08:00. > :08:02.intervention is significant and the pressure on the Prime Minister to
:08:03. > :08:06.listen to what she is saying, will not so much come in parliament, it
:08:07. > :08:09.could come from the electoral commission, which has already said
:08:10. > :08:13.they cannot have the referendum in May as the same time as the devolved
:08:14. > :08:18.elections, and if you have Nicola Sturgeon, Arlene Foster, the First
:08:19. > :08:21.Minister of Northern Ireland, and Karen Jones can be First Minister of
:08:22. > :08:27.Wales Coulibaly said they think this is over complicating -- First
:08:28. > :08:31.Minister of Wales, if they all said they think this is over, catering,
:08:32. > :08:35.because it would happen at the same time as the devolved elections -- if
:08:36. > :08:39.they all said this is overcompensated. That would be
:08:40. > :08:45.significant, we could be bouncing into September. They have said they
:08:46. > :08:48.do not want the overlap, there should be a clear gap between the
:08:49. > :08:53.referendum campaign and the local elections, the assembly come and the
:08:54. > :08:59.Parliamentary elections in Scotland. They have a low view of the ability
:09:00. > :09:06.of the electorate to distinguish between elections, I do think
:09:07. > :09:11.Nicolas -- Nicola Sturgeon is an obstacle, but the biggest obstacle
:09:12. > :09:16.will be David Cameron and what he can get from the EU. You don't think
:09:17. > :09:23.it will be a done deal pretty much they are putting a lot of weight
:09:24. > :09:28.white -- you don't think it will be a done deal? They are putting a lot
:09:29. > :09:32.of weight on one summit, but the next summit that matters, it only
:09:33. > :09:37.takes one delay for us to move beyond June and then into September.
:09:38. > :09:42.I thought 2017 would be more likely, I have slightly revised that view,
:09:43. > :09:51.but I don't think June is possible. We have leave, and several out
:09:52. > :10:01.campaigns, and we have got one which is called grassroots out. Liam Fox,
:10:02. > :10:08.Conservative, Nigel Farage, Kate Hoey from Labour was there, it was
:10:09. > :10:12.launched yesterday. At some stage they have got to consult them if
:10:13. > :10:18.they want to be serious and marshal their resources, they have got to
:10:19. > :10:22.have a single campaign? And by law they have got through, the electoral
:10:23. > :10:25.commission is going to have two designate a campaign on either side.
:10:26. > :10:30.It is pretty clear that the inside are coalescing around the Britain
:10:31. > :10:33.stronger in Europe group, but on the outside there is not that agreement
:10:34. > :10:36.and there is feuding between these groups and they're going to have to
:10:37. > :10:40.reach agreement. The problem they have, who is going to lead them?
:10:41. > :10:44.Nigel Lawson is a key figure and he says they will get a senior Cabinet
:10:45. > :10:48.minister, but I said the most senior Cabinet minister who will go for
:10:49. > :10:54.Brexit, in Duncan Smith, do his own thing, which leaves you with Chris
:10:55. > :11:00.Grayling -- Iain Duncan Smith. And also Theresa Villiers. They will go
:11:01. > :11:06.up against the leader of the in campaign who is someone called David
:11:07. > :11:14.Cameron, and so they really do need to get unity. Vote Labour say they
:11:15. > :11:19.are more grown-up, -- vote leave say they are more grown-up, for example.
:11:20. > :11:22.Some are said to me the other day that Chris Grayling's view is that
:11:23. > :11:28.many senior figures in the party should be voices. In other words he
:11:29. > :11:32.was suggesting he did not want to leave and they would not be one
:11:33. > :11:36.senior Cabinet minister that was going to champion it which gives
:11:37. > :11:42.them another problem. The organisational, factional
:11:43. > :11:46.differences make much less difference in who you have as your
:11:47. > :11:52.voice, it could be a very prominent businessperson, for example, the
:11:53. > :11:57.head of a major company. Who knows how to bend opinion. That is not
:11:58. > :12:02.true of many business people. They could talk about the economic risk.
:12:03. > :12:07.The state in campaign was launched by Stuart Rose. And it was a
:12:08. > :12:17.disaster. It was a disastrous launch will stop you going to John
:12:18. > :12:24.McDonnell's economic seminar? I'm washing my hair. He was to get out
:12:25. > :12:31.of the -- he says he would like to get out of the Westminster bubble,
:12:32. > :12:36.he has only got to the West End, but he has got out there. You don't want
:12:37. > :12:39.to come? There are many people worried about Jeremy Corbyn's
:12:40. > :12:44.leadership in the Labour Party, but they are encouraged about the
:12:45. > :12:47.seminars, the economics panel, he has got an incredibly serious group
:12:48. > :12:54.of people, is opening up these seminars and they are encouraged.
:12:55. > :12:58.There was a good piece in the Sunday Times about whether there is a good
:12:59. > :13:03.deal with Google and whether this is such a good deal for the British
:13:04. > :13:06.taxpayer. I can feel I'm going to be on my own. Anyway, it has sold out,
:13:07. > :13:09.there is no room for you. Jo Coburn will be back
:13:10. > :13:13.with the Daily Politics And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:14. > :13:18.next Sunday Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:19. > :13:29.it's the Sunday Politics.