:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.George Osborne called it a "major success".
:00:44. > :00:45.Google say they're paying what's due.
:00:46. > :00:47.But Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell's not impressed -
:00:48. > :00:50.we'll ask him how he'd get big business to pay more tax.
:00:51. > :00:56.David Cameron says he wants an emergency brake on access
:00:57. > :01:00.to welfare benefits for EU migrants to be applied immediately
:01:01. > :01:06.But will that be enough for the PM to clinch a deal and head
:01:07. > :01:11.And will it be best for business if we stay in or we get out?
:01:12. > :01:14.We'll examine the claim and counter claim and bring the two sides
:01:15. > :01:18.In London this week, Labour badly want to take back
:01:19. > :01:32.Is their mayoral candidate, Sadiq Khan, the man to do it?
:01:33. > :01:34.And taking time out from their protracted negotiations
:01:35. > :01:37.with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over how much tax
:01:38. > :01:42.they should pay on their enormous fees - the best and the brightest
:01:43. > :01:45.political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:46. > :01:50.and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:53.First this morning, George Osborne hailed Google's back tax bill
:01:54. > :01:59.Since then the settlement's been condemned as too lenient by -
:02:00. > :02:02.among others - Boris Johnson, The Sun, Rupert Murdoch
:02:03. > :02:04.and the Labour Party, which has accused the Chancellor
:02:05. > :02:08.of offering the internet giant "mates' rates".
:02:09. > :02:11.In a moment, I'll be talking to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.
:02:12. > :02:14.First here's Google executive, Peter Barron, defending the company
:02:15. > :02:18.on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.
:02:19. > :02:22.What I would say is that in the UK we pay corporation tax at 20%.
:02:23. > :02:27.It's absolutely the same corporation tax rate as everybody else,
:02:28. > :02:34.Yes, but you keep coming back to this point about sales.
:02:35. > :02:37.We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the activities,
:02:38. > :02:39.the economic activities of Google UK.
:02:40. > :02:42.So, we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%,
:02:43. > :02:49.and, actually, globally, our effective tax rate over the last
:02:50. > :02:53.five years or so is round about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate,
:02:54. > :03:01.And I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor,
:03:02. > :03:13.Welcome. What single step would you take to make sure that companies
:03:14. > :03:20.like Google, Apple, Amazon, pay a fair and appropriate level of tax?
:03:21. > :03:23.Openness and transparency. I want the information about how this deal
:03:24. > :03:31.has been arrived at and I want them to publish in the future there tax
:03:32. > :03:35.records. So that we can have openness and transparency, see what
:03:36. > :03:39.is fair. The Chancellor said this was a major success. But we cannot
:03:40. > :03:46.tell because we have not got the information. Would you extend that
:03:47. > :03:50.to British major companies publishing their tax? Six out of ten
:03:51. > :03:56.of the UK's biggest companies are not paying any corporation tax. Yes,
:03:57. > :04:01.I would. The suggestion has been put forward about the FTSE 100. That is
:04:02. > :04:08.a good idea. There would be no commercial disadvantage. Do you
:04:09. > :04:13.think that transparency would be a major step forward? It is one step
:04:14. > :04:17.forward. We want country by country reporting as well. I supported
:04:18. > :04:22.George Osborne on as negotiations in Europe with that. We're not going to
:04:23. > :04:27.get enough. I found quite angry making this morning that we have
:04:28. > :04:30.allegation -- allegations that their Conservatives were voting their MEPs
:04:31. > :04:37.to vote against this. I find that frustrating. I want HMRC to be
:04:38. > :04:42.properly resourced so they can do the job. There are too many job
:04:43. > :04:45.cuts. We have lost too much expertise. There is time now to
:04:46. > :04:54.start thinking about how we review our tax system. The Treasury select
:04:55. > :04:58.committee has undertaken a review. Corporation tax is levied on
:04:59. > :05:01.profits. Even if you got your transparency, you would quickly find
:05:02. > :05:06.that the concept of profits that can be moved around geographically, they
:05:07. > :05:13.can be manipulated depending on costs, would you consider replacing
:05:14. > :05:17.corporation tax with, for example, a tax on corporate sales? Revenues are
:05:18. > :05:20.less malleable than profits. That is one of the issues to be addressed.
:05:21. > :05:27.Nigel Lawson has done an article to that effect. One of the most
:05:28. > :05:31.important things is to secure international agreement. We cannot
:05:32. > :05:35.have the situation where companies are shopping around the world to
:05:36. > :05:39.find the lowest tax regime and inventing company structures to
:05:40. > :05:43.enable that to happen. But if you had a tax on the revenues, it would
:05:44. > :05:49.not happen what they moved around. Revenues are revenues. You would
:05:50. > :05:54.levy a tax on the revenues in the UK. That is why it is worth looking
:05:55. > :06:00.at. It might be a combination of that and economic activity as well.
:06:01. > :06:03.One professor said if you raise corporate taxes too high, companies
:06:04. > :06:09.may move to island macro or elsewhere. Do you accept there has
:06:10. > :06:13.to be a limit? There has to be a limit, there has to be some
:06:14. > :06:16.reasonableness. If we can get international cooperation, you can
:06:17. > :06:22.avoid this development of virtual tax havens taking place. Would you
:06:23. > :06:28.want a common rate of corporation tax? Not necessarily. You would like
:06:29. > :06:31.to make sure that what you charge is reasonable and fair and you would
:06:32. > :06:37.expect those companies to abide by that. I listened to the Google
:06:38. > :06:41.representative this morning. The reputational damage to Google is
:06:42. > :06:45.immense. The savings they have made in taxes not worth the reputational
:06:46. > :06:55.damage. Let's move on to the other big issue, Europe. And membership.
:06:56. > :07:05.How did you vote in the 1975 referendum? Against. In the 198
:07:06. > :07:07.Labour manifesto it claimed that a commitment to radical socialist
:07:08. > :07:13.policies was incompatible with membership of the European Union. It
:07:14. > :07:19.proposed withdrawal. Did you agree with that at the time? I did at the
:07:20. > :07:29.time. That is long gone. We're within Europe. We are working within
:07:30. > :07:29.Europe with other parties to see how we can make Europe fair,
:07:30. > :07:34.particularly with regard to the rights of workers. Take this tax
:07:35. > :07:46.issue. We need to be in Europe to ensure we can secure fair agreement
:07:47. > :07:50.on tax. That is why, by remaining within, we have got to remain within
:07:51. > :07:54.with their own reform agenda, that is one of the issues we need to
:07:55. > :07:58.reform. To take that phrase radical socialist policies, you are
:07:59. > :08:07.committed to radical socialist policies. How is that now compatible
:08:08. > :08:11.with remaining in the EU when it was not in 1983? Because we have
:08:12. > :08:15.demonstrated with the work we have undertaken within the EU that we
:08:16. > :08:19.have secured some benefits. Employment rights. In addition,
:08:20. > :08:22.there are real opportunities now where we can work with others to
:08:23. > :08:26.secure that radical change. Withdrawal from Europe at the moment
:08:27. > :08:30.would not be beneficial. It would lose jobs. It would undermine the
:08:31. > :08:34.benefits we have gained in terms of employment. That is why we want to
:08:35. > :08:39.work to reform it. The issue that I have got with the Prime Minister, we
:08:40. > :08:45.will see what he comes back with... On the social Europe issue, you want
:08:46. > :08:49.a more social Europe. In France you have got a socialist government that
:08:50. > :08:55.has moved to the right. In Germany, a centre-right government. Other
:08:56. > :08:59.countries have either the hard right in power or the hard right at the
:09:00. > :09:04.top of the polls. Where is your social Europe in that? That is why
:09:05. > :09:12.we will work with socialist and social Democrats. I think you will
:09:13. > :09:15.see in the coming years that a wider debate is taking place. In some way
:09:16. > :09:21.the referendum debate will enable us to then look at those ideas.
:09:22. > :09:27.Wouldn't it be fair to say that like Jeremy Corbyn, you are pretty
:09:28. > :09:33.lukewarm about our membership of the European Union? I signed up to
:09:34. > :09:39.remain within the EU. That does not mean to say that we accepted as a
:09:40. > :09:44.perfect institution. We want to see reform. I come back to the tax
:09:45. > :09:48.issue. Unless we get international cooperation, particularly across
:09:49. > :09:55.Europe, we will not solve this problem. You have got a Eurosceptic
:09:56. > :09:59.track record. Kate Hoey, a leader -- leading Labour Eurosceptic, she said
:10:00. > :10:05.that you and Jeremy Corbyn consistently voted with Eurosceptic
:10:06. > :10:09.MPs on the EU. That is true, isn't it? On a number of issues, because
:10:10. > :10:13.we were frustrated with the slow pace of reform. That does not mean
:10:14. > :10:19.we are in favour of coming out. It is better to argue from within to
:10:20. > :10:22.secure a commonality of agreement. Do you broadly support the changes
:10:23. > :10:27.that David Cameron is trying to renegotiate? I don't know what they
:10:28. > :10:33.are yet. Let's see what he comes back with. My fear is if he does not
:10:34. > :10:37.treat this issue seriously and it is just about party management, he
:10:38. > :10:42.could blow it. We could be outside of Europe and have the economic
:10:43. > :10:47.penalties as a result. Even if he comes back with something you do not
:10:48. > :10:53.regard as satisfactory, you will campaign to stay in? We will
:10:54. > :10:57.campaign for our own agenda. The government wants to get this done by
:10:58. > :11:03.the end of June. Will you cooperate with that timetable? We will see
:11:04. > :11:07.what he comes back with. Let's have it as soon as possible. We want the
:11:08. > :11:11.debate to take place. Delaying it would not help. We want the debate
:11:12. > :11:18.to start now. It would be better for him to come back fairly soon. Get
:11:19. > :11:22.the debate going. Even if the campaign overlaps with important
:11:23. > :11:26.elections in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales? That is the
:11:27. > :11:31.problem but it will overlap with something. Immigration is good to be
:11:32. > :11:35.a huge issue. The IMF says that almost 4 million immigrants will
:11:36. > :11:42.arrive in the EU between 2015 and 2017. Almost 4 million. Should
:11:43. > :11:46.Britain take a fair share of that? I think is important we cooperate with
:11:47. > :11:51.our European partners to make that we can accommodate those that need
:11:52. > :11:55.to come to this country. In addition, that we have systems in
:11:56. > :12:00.place that protect wages, so that immigration is not used to undermine
:12:01. > :12:03.wages. But should we take a fair share of the 4 million? I think we
:12:04. > :12:09.should. We should cooperate with others and carry the burden. The
:12:10. > :12:14.majority of Britons want us to rise to it and ensure we assist others
:12:15. > :12:18.and that others are not suffering, and that we do not stand on one side
:12:19. > :12:26.when people suffer. Could you give an indication of how many? Young not
:12:27. > :12:30.at this stage. That would be a matter to negotiate with our
:12:31. > :12:37.European partners. Should we volunteered to be part of the EU
:12:38. > :12:40.quotas system? Mrs Merkel and others want 160,000 to be relocated through
:12:41. > :12:47.Schengen. Should we be part of Schengen? Should we be part of the
:12:48. > :12:52.160,000? We should be doing more in terms of assisting refugees coming
:12:53. > :12:56.from Syria. We should be doing more to help those in desperate need
:12:57. > :13:02.People are drowning in the Mediterranean. We cannot stand
:13:03. > :13:06.aside. This country has a history of receiving refugees. People watching
:13:07. > :13:11.this would want some sort of idea of numbers because numbers are
:13:12. > :13:15.important. It is important. That is why we need to get into these
:13:16. > :13:20.negotiations quickly and come back with practical proposals. In 20 3
:13:21. > :13:27.you told a gathering of the people's assembly at a rally on immigration
:13:28. > :13:32.that they should be open borders? I was arguing then... There was
:13:33. > :13:35.re-search looking at the long-term structure of the globe. Inevitably
:13:36. > :13:40.in this century we will have open borders. The movement of peoples
:13:41. > :13:43.across the globe will mean that borders will almost become
:13:44. > :13:48.irrelevant by the end of the century. We should be preparing for
:13:49. > :13:53.that and explaining why people move. Conflicts, poverty and destitution,
:13:54. > :13:57.and also climate change. In our policy-making we should be working
:13:58. > :14:01.now to see how we address that. It will mean that we need to look at
:14:02. > :14:06.how we resolve conflicts, how we make the world more equal and also
:14:07. > :14:11.how we tackle climate change. In that way we can deal with the
:14:12. > :14:15.reality of the world, which means that people are not forced to move
:14:16. > :14:20.but there will be movement. Total open borders? At the end of this
:14:21. > :14:24.century that is what will occur People are ignoring borders already
:14:25. > :14:27.as they fly from Syria. We should be making sure that if there is no
:14:28. > :14:34.forced movement, we look at the push and pull factors. Conflict
:14:35. > :14:38.prevention, the tackling of inequality and policies that tackle
:14:39. > :14:44.climate change. In that way we can cope with the global pressures with
:14:45. > :14:49.regard to population movement. To do that, for a Labour government to
:14:50. > :14:54.prepare for that, would be loosening controls as you move towards that?
:14:55. > :14:59.No. What I am saying is if you look at the analysis of what is happening
:15:00. > :15:03.over the next 75 years, the movement of people is such that borders are
:15:04. > :15:07.very difficult to maintain. That will happen by the end of the
:15:08. > :15:11.century. We should be opening up the debate of how we handle that. One of
:15:12. > :15:16.the issues we have to tackle is why people are moving. It is about
:15:17. > :15:20.conflict and climate change. It is about poverty as well. That means
:15:21. > :15:25.greater equality not just in our country but across the globe. I
:15:26. > :15:29.wanted to talk to you about Google and the EU. I hope you will come
:15:30. > :15:37.back and give me an interview on economic policy. Let me finish with
:15:38. > :15:42.a taster? Back to Professor Blanchflower, he said about you and
:15:43. > :15:46.Mr Corbyn that you have to accept the realities of capitalism and
:15:47. > :15:52.modern markets, like it or not. No more silly stuff about companies not
:15:53. > :15:58.being able to pay dividends if they do not do X or Y. Do you accept
:15:59. > :16:03.that? That is why I appointed him as an advisor. I wanted objective
:16:04. > :16:04.advice. I have established the architecture for the future
:16:05. > :16:16.development of economic policy. Are you going to accept his advice
:16:17. > :16:20.on that? We will listen to his advice and take it on board. But we
:16:21. > :16:27.will also listen to other advisers. But those advisers, what's the point
:16:28. > :16:30.of them if you will not listen? We will test every policy we put
:16:31. > :16:34.forward. On that one, we are hoping that we would avoid any need for
:16:35. > :16:39.that by introducing as we come into covenant a real living wage. In the
:16:40. > :16:43.meantime, we want to campaign with shareholders so they pressurise
:16:44. > :16:47.their companies to abide by a real living wage. I think there is an
:16:48. > :16:51.alliance to be built there. Is it party policy that if companies don't
:16:52. > :16:54.pay what you regard as a living wage, until it's made mandatory
:16:55. > :17:00.that they shouldn't be allowed to pay dividends? it's one of ideas we
:17:01. > :17:05.have floated for discussion. We have put it to the economic advisers to
:17:06. > :17:09.get their view. Angela Eagle said it's unworkable. That's why it's
:17:10. > :17:13.open for discussion. It's a really good campaigning tool for us to work
:17:14. > :17:17.with shareholders to make sure they exert their influence to ensure
:17:18. > :17:21.their companies, on things like the living wage and paying their taxes
:17:22. > :17:24.as well, to make sure their companies are acting appropriately.
:17:25. > :17:26.John McDonnell, I hope you come back to continue the debate with us. I
:17:27. > :17:29.certainly well. So, David Cameron once dismissed
:17:30. > :17:31.the idea of an emergency This morning, Downing Street
:17:32. > :17:35.is indicating that a brake on welfare benefits for EU
:17:36. > :17:37.migrants might be acceptable if it was applied immediately,
:17:38. > :17:40.but only as a stop-gap measure. This evening, the Prime Minister
:17:41. > :17:43.meets EU Council President Donald Tusk as he tries to broker a deal
:17:44. > :17:49.ahead of a crunch summit of European leaders next month -
:17:50. > :17:54.but will the fractious leave campaigns be in any position to take
:17:55. > :17:56.advantage if he's seen to fail? Right now the future of Britain
:17:57. > :18:03.inside or outside the European Union You might think it started here
:18:04. > :18:12.in Brussels, or that the media's massed ranks are awaiting
:18:13. > :18:17.the outcome in the European Parliament in Strasbourg,
:18:18. > :18:19.or that we are hovering with baited breath for a decision
:18:20. > :18:22.in our own Parliament, but no. This week the decision was made
:18:23. > :18:28.in Havering, in Essex. In this chamber right now,
:18:29. > :18:31.Havering councillors are debating If they do, of course nothing
:18:32. > :18:37.will change, because the smart among you know, no council,
:18:38. > :18:40.not even the British Parliament Nevertheless Havering Council
:18:41. > :18:47.deliberately didn't deliberate on the leisure centre
:18:48. > :18:53.or meals on wheels. However the Prime Minister meanwhile
:18:54. > :18:56.was hurrying for a deal on wheels - not with councillors,
:18:57. > :19:05.but with 27 EU member states. It's his plan to block in-work
:19:06. > :19:08.benefits for EU migrants for four years that's getting
:19:09. > :19:09.the bumpiest ride. The EU counter proposal
:19:10. > :19:12.of an an "emergency brake" on access to benefits - if a country can prove
:19:13. > :19:16.it's welfare system's under strain - has not gone down well
:19:17. > :19:18.with Eurosceptics back home. They are saying we are
:19:19. > :19:26.allowed to go to Brussels, and ask their permission
:19:27. > :19:28.to change the benefit rules, David Cameron still wants that
:19:29. > :19:34.benefit ban, and knows accepting the emergency brake as is would only
:19:35. > :19:38.accelerate any campaign to leave. We want to end the idea
:19:39. > :19:41.of something for nothing. It's not good enough,
:19:42. > :19:47.it needs more work, I believe we've got to put
:19:48. > :19:54.country before party, country before personality, vote
:19:55. > :19:56.for freedom, and vote for leave In Havering they aren't waiting
:19:57. > :20:02.for a date or a settlement. The Prime Minster knows Brexit
:20:03. > :20:05.supporters are eyeing his own Cabinet to see who might be tempted
:20:06. > :20:08.do the same. Michael Gove might come
:20:09. > :20:11.out for leave. Boris Johnson, though
:20:12. > :20:18.it's rather doubtful, might just possibly come out
:20:19. > :20:20.for leave, to vote for leave. Theresa May, who almost
:20:21. > :20:22.certainly is preoccupied And finally, Sajid Javid,
:20:23. > :20:26.the Business Secretary, who has the most
:20:27. > :20:31.Eurosceptic record of all. But it's very difficult,
:20:32. > :20:33.when you are a government minister, and you've got real feelings
:20:34. > :20:35.of loyalty to your party and your Prime Minister,
:20:36. > :20:39.to depart from the line. And a lot of pressure,
:20:40. > :20:43.moral pressure, if you like, A Havering Borough MP thinks that
:20:44. > :20:52.kind of pressure is wrong. I think that this is a decision
:20:53. > :20:56.that we all have to make And it shouldn't impede
:20:57. > :21:00.on people's political careers. People should be able
:21:01. > :21:03.to make up their own minds, and not worry about whether they are
:21:04. > :21:06.going to be sidelined or punished Those who do out themselves for out,
:21:07. > :21:12.will need campaign wizards who can Which, of two battling groups,
:21:13. > :21:18.that is yet undecided, but so far both have seen a bad
:21:19. > :21:23.spell of personality clashes and darkening moods way over
:21:24. > :21:26.the heads of most grassroots The chance of winning over
:21:27. > :21:30.undeclared MPs is the magic What we did discover,
:21:31. > :21:40.it's like the dementors slowly sucking the people up out
:21:41. > :21:43.of the air, body I do think that there will be
:21:44. > :21:47.a coming together now, probably for very good reasons,
:21:48. > :21:49.there have been divisions But I think this campaign will not
:21:50. > :21:53.be just politicians. It's about the people
:21:54. > :21:55.versus the elite in many ways. In fact, you have a referendum
:21:56. > :21:58.really in many ways when politicians Meanwhile back in Havering...
:21:59. > :22:01.is they want to do. party motion is therefore
:22:02. > :22:06.carried by 30 votes to 15. So, councillors in Havering have
:22:07. > :22:11.voted for a motion that says Now, there are plenty of councillors
:22:12. > :22:19.who said they don't have any business debating this,
:22:20. > :22:21.they have far more important things But what it might show
:22:22. > :22:26.is that for some people - and in this case,
:22:27. > :22:29.an official elected body - never mind what the date is,
:22:30. > :22:33.and never mind the renegotiation, they would like to make
:22:34. > :22:40.clear their views right now. I'm joined now by the Conservative
:22:41. > :22:43.MP, Steve Baker, co-chairman of Conservatives for Britain
:22:44. > :22:53.and a director of the Vote Leave If the Prime Minister can get an
:22:54. > :22:57.agreement that there will be a break in welfare payments for migrants the
:22:58. > :23:02.day after the referendum, isn't that a powerful thing to take to the
:23:03. > :23:06.country? It's not powerful at all. Bernard Jenkin is the Conservative
:23:07. > :23:09.director of Vote Leave, but we have been told by the OBR that it
:23:10. > :23:13.wouldn't make much difference even if the Prime Minister got this
:23:14. > :23:17.break. They would only take one case brought forward by activist lawyers,
:23:18. > :23:21.and we would expect the European Court of Justice to strike down such
:23:22. > :23:26.a measure. We think it's a red herring, and as John Redwood said, a
:23:27. > :23:29.bad joke. They have ended up trying to manufacture the appearance of
:23:30. > :23:33.success out of very little. As things stand at the moment, there's
:23:34. > :23:37.nothing the Prime Minister would bring back that would make you want
:23:38. > :23:41.to stay in? I've been clear through the whole period that most of us
:23:42. > :23:45.want to end the supremacy of the EU in the UK. Make our own laws in
:23:46. > :23:51.Parliament. The prime ministers had something similar about the European
:23:52. > :23:54.Court of Human Rights. Demanding an opt out from the charter is subbing
:23:55. > :24:00.the Prime Minister has had to give up. So money inconsistencies. The
:24:01. > :24:04.answer is no. I expect a good number of colleagues to join me and
:24:05. > :24:11.campaign to leave at this stage How many Tory MPs will campaign for out?
:24:12. > :24:14.Of the 150 on the list who have expressed interest, and about a
:24:15. > :24:24.fifth have made up their minds, I think about 50-70. No more than 50
:24:25. > :24:28.or 70 Tory MPs campaigning on your side of the referendum to leave
:24:29. > :24:32.That would be my expectation at this stage. John McDonnell said he wanted
:24:33. > :24:37.to get this out of the wear it, the referendum. Didn't sound to me like
:24:38. > :24:41.Labour would join with the SNP on delaying tactics for the referendum.
:24:42. > :24:46.Would you like the referendum to be later? Realistically we are
:24:47. > :24:49.campaigning out to leave the EU and we have secured our objectives for
:24:50. > :24:55.the campaign. But there is a good case to be made that a June date
:24:56. > :25:04.would trust us. There are elections in neigh, and I think there's a good
:25:05. > :25:07.case for a delay until September. I would prefer the government brought
:25:08. > :25:11.forward a measure that went through the Commons without a row, but if
:25:12. > :25:15.Labour and the SNP and conservative colleagues wish to put something
:25:16. > :25:22.through, then we will be able to what's the biggest beach from the --
:25:23. > :25:28.beast on the cabinet you would like to get? I haven't ruled anybody out.
:25:29. > :25:31.But I'm happy to go into the campaign without any Cabinet big
:25:32. > :25:38.beasts. It would be surprised this point if Chris Grayling didn't join
:25:39. > :25:45.us. He would count as a big beast, leader of the house. People know
:25:46. > :25:55.which Cabinet members are discussed. Theresa May? She made a speech on
:25:56. > :26:00.immigration which would be difficult to recalibrate with the EU. It's a
:26:01. > :26:03.matter for her. You've given up on Bryce Johnson? He occasionally
:26:04. > :26:10.flirts with it in the press. But he's a typical conservative, he
:26:11. > :26:15.loves Europe, he would like Europe to be different, but we'll see what
:26:16. > :26:23.he does when the comes. The different leave campaigns, it's
:26:24. > :26:27.flawed with blood, when will you stop knocking lumps out of each
:26:28. > :26:31.other? I'm not knocking lumps out of anybody and I regret this week that
:26:32. > :26:35.we've had distractions from the core aim of leaving the EU and I regret
:26:36. > :26:39.they have got their way to the press. Everybody involved needs to
:26:40. > :26:43.reach a resolution, everybody involved wants to move on and I hope
:26:44. > :26:48.we do so quickly, let's fight a winning campaign. You are not the
:26:49. > :26:51.director of Vote Leave but you are on the Parliamentary planning
:26:52. > :26:55.committee for Vote Leave, so you are associated. Did you agree with the
:26:56. > :26:58.attempts to get rid of the two full-time people running it, Dominic
:26:59. > :27:03.Cummings and Matthew Elliott? This is a matter for the board. Do you
:27:04. > :27:07.agree with whether they should have gone? At this stage it's very late
:27:08. > :27:19.in the day to make such a profound change. But given the severe
:27:20. > :27:21.concerns of my colleagues, it is clear there will have to be material
:27:22. > :27:23.changes in Vote Leave in order to carry parliamentarians with the
:27:24. > :27:26.campaign. What this material change mean? There has to be a greater
:27:27. > :27:29.degree of involvement with planetary and so they think they are shaping
:27:30. > :27:34.the campaign to win over those voters we need. Will there be a
:27:35. > :27:39.merger in the end? Surely that's what all of you need, you are up
:27:40. > :27:43.against the government, is huge machine, don't you need to be
:27:44. > :27:49.united? It's a David and Goliath battle and we need to be united The
:27:50. > :27:52.process of unity will come through designation. Realistically, leave.
:27:53. > :28:00.EU is looking at the Courville, where as Vote Leave knows we need
:28:01. > :28:04.the swing vote. -- looking at the core vote. I'm confident that Vote
:28:05. > :28:10.Leave can and will win the referendum. I wouldn't give away the
:28:11. > :28:13.mop in case there is more blood to wipe up.
:28:14. > :28:15.One of David Cameron's four key demands in his EU
:28:16. > :28:18.renegotiation concerns competitiveness.
:28:19. > :28:21.The Prime Minister says the burden of regulation on businesses is too
:28:22. > :28:24.high, and that the EU needs to strengthen the single market
:28:25. > :28:26.and accelerate trade agreements with America and China.
:28:27. > :28:29.Arguments about the economic costs or benefits of membership will form
:28:30. > :28:32.a large part of the referendum campaign, with both sides keen
:28:33. > :28:38.Those campaigning to remain within the EU say our membership
:28:39. > :28:41.is worth ?3000 to every household in Britain.
:28:42. > :28:48.It's based on a CBI claim that the UK's economy is 5% bigger
:28:49. > :28:55.They also claim that 3 million jobs are linked
:28:56. > :28:58.to trade within the EU, that 45% of UK exports of goods
:28:59. > :29:03.and services go to the EU, and that the value of
:29:04. > :29:08.trade with the EU is ?133 billion higher than it would be if we left.
:29:09. > :29:17.Those who argue we would be better off if we left claim that
:29:18. > :29:19.regulations imposed on business by the EU cost over
:29:20. > :29:24.They say the 3 million figure on jobs is
:29:25. > :29:27.dependent on trade with the EU, not membership.
:29:28. > :29:30.They argue that the trade would continue if we voted to leave,
:29:31. > :29:32.because we currently import more than we export from the EU.
:29:33. > :29:36.So its members would want free trade to remain.
:29:37. > :29:38.They further point out that the importance of UK trade
:29:39. > :29:46.They cite ONS figures showing that the proportion
:29:47. > :29:49.of UK exports heading for the EU fell from 54.8% in 1999
:29:50. > :29:59.But an analysis by the House of Commons Library in 2013
:30:00. > :30:02.of numerous studies into the economic
:30:03. > :30:05.impact of EU membership found no consensus either way,
:30:06. > :30:13.So, which side will manage to convince voters?
:30:14. > :30:15.I'm joined now by the former trade minister Digby Jones
:30:16. > :30:18.and Richard Reed, who founded Innocent Smoothies,
:30:19. > :30:20.who is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU.
:30:21. > :30:32.Welcome. Digby Jones, the EU accounts for 45% of our exports Why
:30:33. > :30:38.would you risk any of that? That will not change. Because in the
:30:39. > :30:44.morning after any referendum result, Germany, it is pivotal on Germany,
:30:45. > :30:48.would immediately want some form of tariff free arrangement with
:30:49. > :30:54.Britain. They make a million cars they sell in Britain a year. 75 to
:30:55. > :31:01.80% of all the trains in this country are built in Dusseldorf We
:31:02. > :31:07.do not know for sure? No. Germany does it and the others follow. There
:31:08. > :31:14.are many arguments to stay in. But the one thing we should kill now is
:31:15. > :31:19.that not one job in Britain is at risk because of EU membership. Not
:31:20. > :31:23.one. There would be a free-trade agreement because we are so
:31:24. > :31:28.important to Europe. And by the way that does not mean there are not
:31:29. > :31:32.other reasons why not -- why we might not want to be in or out. I
:31:33. > :31:38.get so frustrated when people talk about jobs at risk. It is rubbish.
:31:39. > :31:43.That is very easy thing to call total nonsense. It is clear that if
:31:44. > :31:48.your biggest market is suddenly interfered with, that it will not
:31:49. > :31:50.somehow affect trade, does not make sense. You know more than most
:31:51. > :31:56.people that businesses need certainty. What we have right now is
:31:57. > :32:00.unfettered access to the largest market in the world. The fact that
:32:01. > :32:04.we want to start playing around with this and that is good for business,
:32:05. > :32:09.it does not make sense. I do not see the added value in belonging to a
:32:10. > :32:23.club that fetters small businesses in this country every day.
:32:24. > :32:32.I am a small business. I have done it for years. This is a colossal
:32:33. > :32:38.opportunity. If you are an entrepreneur in the UK. You're
:32:39. > :32:42.making it sound like it makes it more difficult. It makes it much
:32:43. > :32:48.easier because it is one set of regulations and 500 million
:32:49. > :32:54.consumers. If you have a shop, would you want 60 million people walk by
:32:55. > :32:59.our 500 million people walk by? You can achieve that through a
:33:00. > :33:01.free-trade agreement. You get the sales prevention team in Brussels
:33:02. > :33:10.marching valiantly towards 1970 trying to save this is how you will
:33:11. > :33:15.lead your small business in Hartlepool. But we all know that
:33:16. > :33:20.Sutherland Europe, compliance is a voluntary event. We all know that
:33:21. > :33:25.the French do not obey these rules. Then we and northern Europe, we are
:33:26. > :33:30.by no means the best, we obey this stuff. And a small business who
:33:31. > :33:39.doesn't have lobbyists in Brussels, and you know this... I know this.
:33:40. > :33:43.Britain loves a bit of regulation. You are absolutely right. If we come
:33:44. > :33:47.out and you say we will still trade, we will still have to comply with
:33:48. > :33:51.the regulation. That is the condition of free trade. We will not
:33:52. > :33:56.avoid regulation. The regulation is there whether we are in or out. If
:33:57. > :34:01.we are in, we get to influence the regulation. We get to have the voice
:34:02. > :34:10.heard. You tell that to the money men in the City who have seen
:34:11. > :34:14.legislation come down from Brussels. You see what happens when we're not
:34:15. > :34:19.there when the big decisions are made. You think we have no
:34:20. > :34:23.influence? We're one of the three big forces in Europe. We are one of
:34:24. > :34:30.the three biggest economies in Europe. Digby Jones, I want to ask
:34:31. > :34:35.you this. You assume we will still have unfettered access to the single
:34:36. > :34:39.market. But it has been pointed out by Richard Reid that that means we
:34:40. > :34:43.would have to meet the conditions of getting into the single market.
:34:44. > :34:47.Could there be other costs? Free movement of people may be a cost.
:34:48. > :34:54.That is a price Switzerland and Norway pay. Let's Explorer that I'm
:34:55. > :34:57.concerned this referendum is going to become a referendum purely on a
:34:58. > :35:03.migration on the street, when we ought to be discussing how can
:35:04. > :35:07.European Union reform and improve the life of an unemployed
:35:08. > :35:11.25-year-old in Madrid and a single mother in Athens? How can the power
:35:12. > :35:17.of Britain, economic and otherwise, how can it be seen as a driver to
:35:18. > :35:21.get the standard of living up? If you base your economy on exporting
:35:22. > :35:27.our lives and importing BMWs, you will go bust. They are asking Europe
:35:28. > :35:30.to subsidise the growth of our lives, in the hope that for some
:35:31. > :35:34.reason on skilled people in Europe will do this. You are going to get
:35:35. > :35:40.on skilled people in Europe coming to rich countries instead of
:35:41. > :35:43.actually getting skilled people in Europe being marketable in northern
:35:44. > :35:51.Europe. You can only pull that off with reform. We should not be
:35:52. > :35:55.campaigning to stop these people coming. We should be campaigning to
:35:56. > :35:59.get the skills base of Europe up so they get wealthy, but more
:36:00. > :36:04.importantly, they are more marketable in our market. The
:36:05. > :36:08.British government has enough trouble getting the skills base
:36:09. > :36:13.right in Britain without trying to get it right in southern Europe
:36:14. > :36:18.Richard Reid, you say that we are in the club that we can influence the
:36:19. > :36:23.rules. Let me put the question. The British have been on the wrong end
:36:24. > :36:27.of EU majorities on these rules more than any other country that is a
:36:28. > :36:34.member of the EU. We really get away on these things. You are joking We
:36:35. > :36:42.have got the best possible setup. We are part of the EU. We said no to
:36:43. > :36:51.the euro, no to Schengen, no to force migratory bird it is. Why so
:36:52. > :36:56.many majority votes? This is a macro decision. Once in a generation. We
:36:57. > :37:00.have got to get it right. The big picture is it is a colossal
:37:01. > :37:06.opportunity and we have got the best version of the deal. When you and I
:37:07. > :37:11.were arguing cases about whether we should join the euro years ago, I
:37:12. > :37:16.can remember sitting in television studios and being told the world was
:37:17. > :37:21.going to end and we were going to go to Armageddon and back if we did not
:37:22. > :37:28.join the euro. We made the right decision about the euro. This
:37:29. > :37:30.interview has come to an end. I thank you both.
:37:31. > :37:32.It's just gone 11:35 - you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:33. > :37:35.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:36. > :37:39.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be hearing from our political panel.
:37:40. > :37:50.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:51. > :37:53.This week, we are looking at Labour's
:37:54. > :37:57.What is Sadiq Khan offering, and is it a programme that can win
:37:58. > :38:04.With their own view on that, and with me
:38:05. > :38:06.this week, are Rushanara Ali, the Labour MP for Bethnal Green and
:38:07. > :38:09.And Stephen Hammond, Conservative MP for
:38:10. > :38:14.His final budget was discussed at City Hall this week,
:38:15. > :38:20.We don't need to pay for the Olympics
:38:21. > :38:22.any more, he said, so girls could come down.
:38:23. > :38:26.We made a very clear promise to cut council tax in real
:38:27. > :38:31.And we are actually keeping a commitment that was made
:38:32. > :38:35.to Londoners by the previous mayor, that the precept would not go
:38:36. > :38:44.For ten years we have been paying ?20, the so-called
:38:45. > :38:46.Olympic precept, as part of what the mayor raises
:38:47. > :38:50.We have paid all that off, but isn't there
:38:51. > :38:53.an argument, as the Liberal Democrats and Greens suggest,
:38:54. > :38:55.that we just keep this, get to Londoners
:38:56. > :38:58.to pay the same level of council tax, but maybe use the money
:38:59. > :39:07.I think if we want to resolve the housing crisis, we need to be
:39:08. > :39:12.Radical and ambitious about how planning works.
:39:13. > :39:14.how we finance housing, and what we do to stop the fuelling
:39:15. > :39:17.of the housing market with foreign investors and other kinds
:39:18. > :39:20.Your party didn't object to Boris Johnson
:39:21. > :39:23.No, we didn't, because there are clearly issues
:39:24. > :39:25.about Londoners, particularly those on medium and low wages
:39:26. > :39:31.I think if we want to tackle the housing crisis, we need
:39:32. > :39:35.This would be tinkering, frankly, and we need
:39:36. > :39:39.to look at how we use land and planning.
:39:40. > :39:42.Boris Johnson scrapped the key workers programme and a whole
:39:43. > :39:45.series of other things that were helping ordinary Londoners
:39:46. > :39:47.Sadiq Khan has got plans for London, particularly around housing
:39:48. > :39:55.which are much more comprehensive and
:39:56. > :40:00.Stephen Hammond, you could use that money, the Liberal
:40:01. > :40:02.Democrats are saying, to leave in more borrowing.
:40:03. > :40:03.Isn't there something hypocritical or
:40:04. > :40:06.He's always said you need to keep fares up for investment
:40:07. > :40:09.in the transport system, but here he wouldn't keep council
:40:10. > :40:11.tax up because it would be useful for his
:40:12. > :40:12.successors for various projects, housing.
:40:13. > :40:14.Boris is keeping his promise to Londoners.
:40:15. > :40:17.This was always the promise to Londoners and it's right
:40:18. > :40:21.He's also a legacy that I'm very pleased to Zac
:40:22. > :40:25.Goldsmith will inherit later in the year.
:40:26. > :40:29.Because he's left us with council tax coming down,
:40:30. > :40:32.a fairer London, he's left us with a boom
:40:33. > :40:37.He's left us with the same number of police officers on the street,
:40:38. > :40:40.He's left us with 100,000 affordable homes
:40:41. > :40:43.This is a legacy to which anyone would be
:40:44. > :40:47.And I know Zac will be pleased to inherit it later in the year
:40:48. > :40:50.I suppose, as you say, he's made a promise and he would be
:40:51. > :40:53.criticised from all sides if he had broken that promise will stop
:40:54. > :40:55.but let's move on and consider who might
:40:56. > :40:59.It's clear how the Conservatives intend to portray Sadiq Khan.
:41:00. > :41:01.The Prime Minister said this week that if Labour's man
:41:02. > :41:04.became mayor, Londoners would become lab rats in an experiment
:41:05. > :41:08.Khan said he's his own man, and at this stage, as we said last
:41:09. > :41:10.week, he's ahead in the available polling.
:41:11. > :41:15.Labour's candidate from mayor, Sadiq Khan, invited our cameras
:41:16. > :41:18.to a Hackney building site this week.
:41:19. > :41:19.The message he wanted to present, that
:41:20. > :41:24.he was the man to fix London's housing problems.
:41:25. > :41:27.I'm going to set up in City Hall, a homes for Londoners,
:41:28. > :41:32.Making sure there are genuinely affordable homes to rent
:41:33. > :41:37.He's also promising a target for 50% of new
:41:38. > :41:44.An old City Hall policy that was scrapped by Boris Johnson.
:41:45. > :41:47.Is reintroduction could prove controversial.
:41:48. > :41:50.This week, the home builders Federation, who represent a pity
:41:51. > :42:07.-- who represent property developers.
:42:08. > :42:12.While housing was the focus this week, the Labour candidate has also
:42:13. > :42:13.put transport centre stage with promises
:42:14. > :42:20.Increase the size of the so-called ultra low emission zone,
:42:21. > :42:23.which would introduce restrictions on all but
:42:24. > :42:26.the cleanest vehicles from driving in zones one and two,
:42:27. > :42:31.On Wednesday, the Prime Minister could hardly have been clearer
:42:32. > :42:38.Just think for a moment what having, you know,
:42:39. > :42:44.the first Corbyn elected mayor be like in London for our economy,
:42:45. > :42:46.our education, our politics, for our city.
:42:47. > :42:53.You do not want to be lab rats in the first
:42:54. > :42:57.Corbyn economics experiment in public life in our country.
:42:58. > :42:59.However, the mayoral candidate has been keen
:43:00. > :43:02.to strike a very different tone to Jeremy Corbyn on some issues
:43:03. > :43:07.I want to be the most pro-business mayor
:43:08. > :43:11.Jobs, growth, increased productivity, it means
:43:12. > :43:14.they can profit, employee more Londoners, and pay them a living
:43:15. > :43:18.I want London to be a living wage city, the first of its kind
:43:19. > :43:22.So, what to make the man who says he's resolutely
:43:23. > :43:24.pro-business, but is accused of helping to usher
:43:25. > :43:31.Conservatives say the answer is simple.
:43:32. > :43:33.His line has changed over the years, as the Labour Party line
:43:34. > :43:37.There is very little consistency there, a lot of flip-flopping.
:43:38. > :43:39.So I think Zac Goldsmith is much more independent
:43:40. > :43:42.minded and will find it easier to work with all the different
:43:43. > :43:43.parties that have power in different parts
:43:44. > :43:46.of London, and that makes him a better potential candidate to be
:43:47. > :43:49.While the Conservatives may claim that he is
:43:50. > :43:52.evasive and a difficult man to pin down, there is one unshakeable truth
:43:53. > :43:54.they have to accept about Sadiq Khan.
:43:55. > :43:57.Right now, he's ahead in the polls, and the bookies favourite to be
:43:58. > :44:06.Pro-business, we've heard you say that.
:44:07. > :44:09.Business wants a mayor with financial credibility
:44:10. > :44:11.and somebody who can ensure a stable transport system,
:44:12. > :44:14.Why would you give away hundreds of millions of pounds that
:44:15. > :44:19.you could be using for investment in transport
:44:20. > :44:23.system with a fares freeze guarantee for four years?
:44:24. > :44:26.Well, one of the most important thing is Londoners
:44:27. > :44:29.need is a transport system they can afford to use.
:44:30. > :44:33.Public transport in London is the most expensive in Europe
:44:34. > :44:35.Over the last eight years it has doubled.
:44:36. > :44:40.So, I've set out a fully funded fares freeze for four
:44:41. > :44:43.I've set up how we will pay for that.
:44:44. > :44:45.Boris Johnson himself accepts my figures.
:44:46. > :44:47.It will cost roughly speaking, ?450 million.
:44:48. > :44:52.If you are going to say he did before,
:44:53. > :45:01.He was at LBC two weeks ago accepting my figures.
:45:02. > :45:03.More importantly, because you have raised that straightaway,
:45:04. > :45:05.more reportedly come as you know, his
:45:06. > :45:07.transport agency says you would cost Londoners 1.9 billion.
:45:08. > :45:14.Why is there such a discrepancy between your two sets of figures?
:45:15. > :45:18.TfL's figures say that this year Boris Johnson's fare increase,
:45:19. > :45:21.the eighth in a row, would cost ?43 million.
:45:22. > :45:23.I've promised a fares freeze over four years.
:45:24. > :45:33.The cost of you freezing the fares...
:45:34. > :45:43.fare this time in 2020, as you pay now.
:45:44. > :45:47.You are not allowing for an inflation rise.
:45:48. > :45:51.Why would you do that when the cost is going up?
:45:52. > :45:58.Because our public transport system is the most expensive
:45:59. > :46:10.Let me explain to you how we will pay for this.
:46:11. > :46:11.We will merge TfL's engineering fund.
:46:12. > :46:13.Currently you have a different one for underground and surface.
:46:14. > :46:15.That alone brings in more than ?400 million.
:46:16. > :46:20.If it has been so sensible, why has it not been
:46:21. > :46:23.Because TfL say it will not make the savings you say.
:46:24. > :46:29.TfL have said that they will make sure the new mayor has
:46:30. > :46:35.Last year TfL spent almost ?400 million on consultants
:46:36. > :46:41.Last year, ?61 million was lost by fare evasion and we will cut
:46:42. > :46:47.Hong Kong's transport agency raises more money.
:46:48. > :47:02.through their properties than through their fares.
:47:03. > :47:05.Let me come back to the fundamental point about why you would make such
:47:06. > :47:09.Why would you bind yourself, when you have the right
:47:10. > :47:11.and ability, depending on what the financial climate is,
:47:12. > :47:13.to consider things year-on-year, do you accept
:47:14. > :47:15.it looks a bit like some sort of populist gesture rather
:47:16. > :47:17.than a very business like financially prudent
:47:18. > :47:20.It's a policy Londoners need, after housing.
:47:21. > :47:22.So you accept it's not based on financial reason?
:47:23. > :47:23.After housing, public transport is the second biggest
:47:24. > :47:26.Do you accept it's a rather populist measure?
:47:27. > :47:30.You are not denying that the money is money you are giving back to fare
:47:31. > :47:32.payers, and if you had the money you could use
:47:33. > :47:35.It's disgraceful that Londoners in week
:47:36. > :47:37.three and four are choosing between food and fares.
:47:38. > :47:39.I'm going to be a mayor for all Londoners.
:47:40. > :47:41.That means helping Londoners get from home to work.
:47:42. > :47:45.How will you help them if their network is not
:47:46. > :47:47.being invested in and there aren't more trains and services?
:47:48. > :47:50.This is why, unlike the current deputy Mayor of London,
:47:51. > :47:52.who has promised a fares cut should he
:47:53. > :47:55.He actually has experience of running
:47:56. > :47:58.He didn't actually win the mayoral nomination,
:47:59. > :48:00.he didn't impress the Conservatives very much.
:48:01. > :48:11.It's really important Londoners know that over the last
:48:12. > :48:15.I promise you will pay exactly the same fares,
:48:16. > :48:17.not a penny more, in 2020, as you do now.
:48:18. > :48:20.So our transport correspondent has been told that you have
:48:21. > :48:22.That you haven't taken into account Crossrail,
:48:23. > :48:24.which comes into play, opening in 2018.
:48:25. > :48:27.You are, in effect, giving up hundreds of millions of pounds that
:48:28. > :48:29.you could get from people coming in from outside London.
:48:30. > :48:32.As I said to you, what I promised, and I haven't
:48:33. > :48:37.I actually have experience of being a minister
:48:38. > :48:40.in transport, and was the Minister for Crossrail, and was the Minister
:48:41. > :48:42.who took through the bill that means businesses pay
:48:43. > :48:49.It will open in 2018 and 2019, parts will be opening earlier
:48:50. > :48:52.than other parts, and it's important we use those revenue streams
:48:53. > :49:01.TfL, that's why they are saying you will cost ?1.9 billion,
:49:02. > :49:03.because you haven't thought of those.
:49:04. > :49:10.What I'm saying is this, my fares freeze
:49:11. > :49:13.We will make sure we make the savings this mayor has
:49:14. > :49:16.But we will also increase revenue streams.
:49:17. > :49:22.We could build on Hyde Park, the genuinely affordable homes that
:49:23. > :49:30.But also a really important revenue stream as well.
:49:31. > :49:33.I'm the person with a plan and experience to make sure TfL
:49:34. > :49:43.You are promising that Londoners get first dibs,
:49:44. > :49:45.first call on homes, not just on public land,
:49:46. > :49:48.mayoral land, which we heard from Zac Goldsmith last week,
:49:49. > :49:51.Is that people born in London, that they get first choice?
:49:52. > :49:54.What we will stop happening is developers marketing properties
:49:55. > :49:56.off plan overseas before they are available for Londoners.
:49:57. > :49:57.Last year, for example, one estate agent
:49:58. > :50:00.marketed 7000 properties in the middle east and Asia.
:50:01. > :50:02.Even now you can market it at the same time.
:50:03. > :50:04.Even now you could market one day later
:50:05. > :50:08.and it means foreign buyers would be able to buy the property.
:50:09. > :50:10.It's really important that Londoners get
:50:11. > :50:15.This means, for example, as part of the planning condition,
:50:16. > :50:17.you can't have properties for sale less than six
:50:18. > :50:22.One of the biggest challenges Londoners have is persuading
:50:23. > :50:25.their building society to give them a mortgage when the home will be
:50:26. > :50:27.completed more than six months later.
:50:28. > :50:30.As part of the London plan, we will say to developers and local
:50:31. > :50:33.authorities, you can no longer sell off plan to investors overseas.
:50:34. > :50:34.They shouldn't be gold bricks for investors,
:50:35. > :50:43.You accept though that developers will not like this,
:50:44. > :50:46.because they get a lot of upfront money that ensures you get more
:50:47. > :50:48.developments in the end and thus more affordable housing
:50:49. > :50:52.by the using some of this foreign investment.
:50:53. > :50:55.Will you accept as well that, Londoners first, or any kind
:50:56. > :50:58.of restriction you put into the planning system,
:50:59. > :51:00.that's an interference with the market and
:51:01. > :51:03.will again put developers off coming forward.
:51:04. > :51:06.Your reporter came with me to Hackney this week,
:51:07. > :51:11.and has seen what Hackney Council has done, and
:51:12. > :51:13.Labour Hackney as part of the development, we made sure
:51:14. > :51:15.that the private developer, working with the council,
:51:16. > :51:18.We're talking about a huge scale across London.
:51:19. > :51:21.Zac Goldsmith told us of that last week.
:51:22. > :51:28.You asked me a question and I'm giving you an answer.
:51:29. > :51:31.Labour Hackney has shown that at scale, across London,
:51:32. > :51:40.will not want to do that, they will not want that
:51:41. > :51:44.There are 32 boroughs, and some of them are already doing this.
:51:45. > :51:48.We need to make sure all boroughs do this.
:51:49. > :51:51.That's why you have a Mayor of London who drafts a London
:51:52. > :51:55.A London plan that will be used by all 32 London boroughs,
:51:56. > :51:57.and also developers will know where they stand.
:51:58. > :51:59.We need to bring certainty to the market.
:52:00. > :52:01.That also means defining what I mean by affordable homes.
:52:02. > :52:05.It's making sure homes are genuinely affordable to Londoners.
:52:06. > :52:07.You will bring less certainty because you say
:52:08. > :52:09.you can achieve 50% affordability on the total housing over
:52:10. > :52:15.We've had a Conservative for the last eight years.
:52:16. > :52:22.Across London, we've never got higher than 39%, have we?
:52:23. > :52:30.Are you accepting your reach will be that you will not hit
:52:31. > :52:36.We have a London plan which covers all of London.
:52:37. > :52:40.At the moment we have some really good local
:52:41. > :52:43.authorities trying their best with their hands tied
:52:44. > :52:46.behind their back with the current London plans that allows developers
:52:47. > :52:47.to market affordable homes costing 80% of
:52:48. > :52:50.How will you persuade developers to come forward
:52:51. > :52:54.and build when you are telling them that 50% of them have to be
:52:55. > :52:56.There will not be the profit margins.
:52:57. > :53:01.I gave you the example of Labour Hackney.
:53:02. > :53:03.Let me give you the example of Camden.
:53:04. > :53:05.I visited a development in Camden two weeks ago,
:53:06. > :53:09.warehouses owned by Camden Council who could
:53:10. > :53:11.have sold off to private developers, and instead they are working
:53:12. > :53:13.with a private developer, in this case, Savills,
:53:14. > :53:16.to make sure that half of homes are genuinely
:53:17. > :53:18.By the way, the other half are market
:53:19. > :53:21.value, and the revenue stream from the market value means you have
:53:22. > :53:23.genuinely affordable homes for all Camden residents.
:53:24. > :53:28.You also have enough money for the council estates.
:53:29. > :53:32.Stephen Hammond, the Prime Minister's comments about Londoners
:53:33. > :53:34.becoming lab rats in an experiment in Corbynism.
:53:35. > :53:36.What does he mean by that, what would happen to London
:53:37. > :53:39.I think there are some real questions.
:53:40. > :53:43.You have already seen that Corbyn is not pro-business.
:53:44. > :53:45.Sadiq Khan may or may not be pro-business,
:53:46. > :53:48.but Corbyn certainly isn't.
:53:49. > :53:50.I think the key question for Londoners, is,
:53:51. > :53:52.listening to Sadiq Khan, why is it that TfL say
:53:53. > :53:55.there is 1.5 billion black hole in his fares plan?
:53:56. > :53:58.Simply because it isn't affordable and will hurt investment in the tube
:53:59. > :54:01.As well as the overground system and a number of projects
:54:02. > :54:05.A number of things he mentions are already being done,
:54:06. > :54:07.particularly bringing forward land into the London land commission
:54:08. > :54:11.The 50% affordable homes target was dropped because it didn't work.
:54:12. > :54:13.Ken Livingstone failed to deliver, Boris has delivered.
:54:14. > :54:18.100,000 homes, which he promised to do.
:54:19. > :54:24.Also don't forget, this 450 is a cap, there are affordable homes
:54:25. > :54:32.being built in Greenwich as we sit here today at ?150,000.
:54:33. > :54:34.It doesn't have to be at 450 thousand.
:54:35. > :54:39.A neutral body, Transport for London, saying that
:54:40. > :54:42.they had plans for investment and 1.9 billion is what they thought
:54:43. > :54:45.they would get, but they wouldn't get
:54:46. > :54:49.Two points, firstly TfL are not saying that.
:54:50. > :54:56.You had on your programme two weeks ago one of the world's leading
:54:57. > :55:01.The LSE's Professor Tony Travers, and he says he's changed his mind
:55:02. > :55:08.In 2012 he thought it wasn't possible to have a fares freeze
:55:09. > :55:10.You will know that he now says it is possible.
:55:11. > :55:14.He said it's possible, but it's whether it's a sensible
:55:15. > :55:19.If you want to fulfil all your other dreams in the transport network
:55:20. > :55:33.That means ensuring they can afford a modern transport system.
:55:34. > :55:34.Tower Hamlets has never achieved anything
:55:35. > :55:45.What we have done is in the past we had
:55:46. > :55:47.the support of the former London Mayor in making sure
:55:48. > :55:51.What you have got at the moment is a London
:55:52. > :56:02.Let's take the bishop Bishopsgate goods yard. Towers going up and most
:56:03. > :56:05.Londoners can't afford to buy them. Boris Johnson has decided to recall
:56:06. > :56:13.planning decisions by Hackney That kind of contradictory behaviour
:56:14. > :56:21.is completely at odds with trying to deal with London's
:56:22. > :56:22.housing prices. I want a mayor working
:56:23. > :56:24.in partnership Not just Labour local
:56:25. > :56:26.authorities, all local authorities, to make sure
:56:27. > :56:29.that we apply the right kind They are going scot free and making
:56:30. > :56:33.profit for doing very In the time we have left,
:56:34. > :56:36.is Jeremy Corbyn a help Jeremy Corbyn is not
:56:37. > :56:39.on the ballot paper, What is important is I set
:56:40. > :56:48.out my vision for a London. There will be occasions
:56:49. > :56:53.when I agree with Jeremy Corbyn There will be some
:56:54. > :57:01.occasions when I do not. Londoners did not want to see a
:57:02. > :57:06.patsy of their party leader, Corbyn or Cameron will stop.
:57:07. > :57:10.Londoners want somebody with experience, with values and vision.
:57:11. > :57:13.Will he be an asset to your campaign, and will he be out
:57:14. > :57:14.campaigning with you between now and polling day?
:57:15. > :57:19.Jeremy Corbyn is passionate about
:57:20. > :57:21.Jeremy Corbyn understands far better London's
:57:22. > :57:24.housing crisis than any other party leader.
:57:25. > :57:31.What is important for Londoners is to see a candidate and a mayor
:57:32. > :57:36.standing up for London, not being in the pocket of the Prime
:57:37. > :57:37.Minister, but standing up for Londoners.
:57:38. > :57:39.We have got just under 100 days to go.
:57:40. > :57:42.We hope you will come back to explore some
:57:43. > :57:51.What about the rest of the political news in the capital this week?
:57:52. > :57:55.A 24-hour tube strike planned for this week
:57:56. > :58:09.was called off after the RMT Union agreed to suspend it.
:58:10. > :58:16.It follows ASLEF, TSSA and Unite calling off
:58:17. > :58:19.The RMT said the suspension would allow for further
:58:20. > :58:24.Questions about the future of the Garden Bridge
:58:25. > :58:25.after it emerged that the mayor
:58:26. > :58:28.the project with executives from Apple in California
:58:29. > :58:31.a week before the search for a designer was endorsed.
:58:32. > :58:33.City Hall said the meeting had no bearing on the procurement process,
:58:34. > :58:35.which was open, fair and transparent.
:58:36. > :58:37.Speculation this week over the long-term future of Britain s
:58:38. > :58:39.most senior policeman, the head of the
:58:40. > :58:41.Metropolitan police, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe.
:58:42. > :58:43.He had wanted a three-year extension to his contract
:58:44. > :58:52.However, Boris Johnson recommended a one-year
:58:53. > :58:54.extension in a letter to the Home Secretary,
:58:55. > :59:04.Stephen Hammond, a quick one on garden bridge.
:59:05. > :59:14.All kinds of problems. Looks like the mayor has had a private meeting
:59:15. > :59:18.in San Francisco. Before the contract was given out.
:59:19. > :59:22.Boris flew to San Francisco to speak to Apple about
:59:23. > :59:24.sponsoring the bridge and getting involved.
:59:25. > :59:26.The designer was out there for a completely different
:59:27. > :59:31.It was quite clear, and everybody accepts,
:59:32. > :59:35.it was an open and transparent process.
:59:36. > :59:37.It feels very much like after the event
:59:38. > :59:41.bitching by people who did not get the contract.
:59:42. > :59:55.It says it doesn't smell. Boris went there at tax payer's expense. It
:59:56. > :00:00.looks like a stitch up, frankly Far from being transparent, it looks
:00:01. > :00:05.very dodgy. I think we should.. We need to know why this happens. We
:00:06. > :00:08.don't know much. In the time we have left, would you give Bernard
:00:09. > :00:16.Hogan-Howe the full three years I think he has done a very important
:00:17. > :00:21.job for London. You have no objection? I have no objections But
:00:22. > :00:25.given we have an election coming up and a new mayor, I don't have any
:00:26. > :00:29.problems. What about his position, he wants three years, shouldn't the
:00:30. > :00:35.Home Secretary give it to him, and so what about the elections question
:00:36. > :00:39.I think Boris made a very sensible decision, a one-year extension. The
:00:40. > :00:42.failure of the Labour Party as they talk about themselves and the
:00:43. > :00:58.mayoral budget. Back to Andrew. Welcome back. Let's return to the
:00:59. > :01:02.issue of Google's tax bill. It is not just Google. Earlier I spoke to
:01:03. > :01:07.John McDonnell and asked him what he would do to make sure that companies
:01:08. > :01:12.like Google pay a fair and appropriate level of tax. First of
:01:13. > :01:15.all, I want the information about how the deal was arrived at and I
:01:16. > :01:23.want them in future to publish their tax records, the British part. So we
:01:24. > :01:28.can have openness and transparency, we can see what is fair. The
:01:29. > :01:33.Chancellor said this was a major success, but we cannot tell because
:01:34. > :01:37.we have not got the information I would suggest that the Google row
:01:38. > :01:44.rumbles on by Google appearing with Andrew Marr this morning. There are
:01:45. > :01:47.other companies in the frame like Amazon, Apple, big investigation by
:01:48. > :01:52.the European Commission -- commission. And we discover that a
:01:53. > :01:56.lot of major British multinationals do not pay any are very small
:01:57. > :02:02.amounts of corporation tax. This issue has got a long way to go, I
:02:03. > :02:07.would suggest? Yes, and it could end up in a transatlantic almost cold
:02:08. > :02:13.war between the EU and the US and in particular US companies. Each side
:02:14. > :02:16.thinks the other is trying to exploit its site disproportionately.
:02:17. > :02:21.I wonder if eventually the people who ultimately lobby for
:02:22. > :02:24.International corporate tax reform and clarity will be corporations
:02:25. > :02:27.themselves. At the moment they are getting into trouble of what is
:02:28. > :02:31.ultimately observing the letter of the law, and certainly observing
:02:32. > :02:36.their duty to pay the legal minimum of tax, the duty they have to their
:02:37. > :02:39.shareholders. If that is getting them into trouble, I think they have
:02:40. > :02:43.an incentive in the long run to press for a clarity and reform
:02:44. > :02:48.internationally, even if it means their aggregate tax payment goes
:02:49. > :02:54.slightly upwards. The irony is that this row comes after there has been
:02:55. > :03:00.major changes at the OECD level at EU level, on trying to simplify and
:03:01. > :03:04.get multinationals to pay their due tax. And yet we seem to be no
:03:05. > :03:09.further forward than before. I wonder if people start looking
:03:10. > :03:13.harder at corporation tax and whether that is the right way to
:03:14. > :03:19.proceed? S there are other ways of doing it. You can do it on turnover,
:03:20. > :03:23.sales. These large companies that are taking bigger and bigger slabs
:03:24. > :03:32.of the British markets are not paying their tax. Think of the
:03:33. > :03:39.people competing against Amazon Argos, the local book shop... It is
:03:40. > :03:42.not fair. Their sense of indignation... Then to discover that
:03:43. > :03:47.the Conservative Party, while talking about how they are trying to
:03:48. > :03:51.clean this up and they are doing more than Labour, which possibly
:03:52. > :03:55.they are, meanwhile instructing their MEPs to vote against moves in
:03:56. > :03:59.Europe, to try to get a proper European agreement on this, it will
:04:00. > :04:03.not work unless we get a European agreement, and to find out that the
:04:04. > :04:08.Government says one thing speaking here but secretly in the European
:04:09. > :04:12.Parliament does something else. There are a lot of legs on this A
:04:13. > :04:16.lot of trouble for the Conservative Party because it plays to their
:04:17. > :04:21.weakness, sick -- just a security and defence place to be Labour
:04:22. > :04:28.weakness. They are in bed with the big corporations. Do you think they
:04:29. > :04:31.are in bed with them? Politicians love meeting cutting edge companies.
:04:32. > :04:37.They do not spend that much time with steel companies. It is a bit of
:04:38. > :04:42.a stretch to then think that they were ever doing anything about
:04:43. > :04:48.Google's tax returns. I think it is quite a stretch. The Google top
:04:49. > :04:51.executive right at the heart of Downing Street, just as Andy Coulson
:04:52. > :04:57.from the Murdoch empire was right at the heart of Downing Street. You
:04:58. > :05:10.have got Seamus Milne at the heart of the Corbyn Empire. There is quite
:05:11. > :05:13.a difference! It is ironic, the International rules were meant to be
:05:14. > :05:20.cleaned up. They were meant to have done something about the double
:05:21. > :05:26.Irish and Dutch sandwich. I speak in tongues because that is how you have
:05:27. > :05:29.to do it these days. Unless there is a major radical change, I would
:05:30. > :05:32.suggest, if they carry on the current way, it will be another ten
:05:33. > :05:38.years before there are further changes? Yass and not only were the
:05:39. > :05:44.international rules meant to have been cleared up, George Osborne
:05:45. > :05:50.talked about how reprehensible aggressive tax avoidance is. Then
:05:51. > :05:53.last week he said the deal with Google is a special deal. The
:05:54. > :05:58.problem with George Osborne is he has forgotten the second part of
:05:59. > :06:05.Peter Mandelson's famous sentence about being relaxed about people
:06:06. > :06:11.getting rich... As long as they pay their tax. The problem for George
:06:12. > :06:13.Osborne is that he sees everything through a 2010 lens. This deal is
:06:14. > :06:21.much better than anything that happened under new Labour. That is
:06:22. > :06:25.six years ago. We have moved on People are now judging this
:06:26. > :06:30.government on what they have done. It has been a long slow burning
:06:31. > :06:38.campaign. The tax Justice campaign has been brilliant. UK uncut Ren
:06:39. > :06:40.fantastic demonstrations against top shop, Vodafone, boots, people
:06:41. > :06:48.avoiding their taxes in elaborate ways. Witty campaigns the public
:06:49. > :06:53.saw. I think it is at the centre of it now. With other cases coming up,
:06:54. > :07:03.Apple and Amazon, Vodafone always in the frame... Just finally, I thought
:07:04. > :07:06.it was fascinating that Peter Borren of Google explained in effect that
:07:07. > :07:12.the money made in Britain and other places is then sent to Bermuda,
:07:13. > :07:18.essentially warehoused in Bermuda. It is a tax haven. If they
:07:19. > :07:21.repatriated back to California headquarters, they would pay
:07:22. > :07:29.corporation tax in America and they think that is too high. America
:07:30. > :07:34.corporate tax is run about 40%. Apple has about 200 billion US
:07:35. > :07:38.dollars in cash reserves internationally. Let's move on to
:07:39. > :07:44.the referendum. I got the impression from listening to John McDonnell and
:07:45. > :07:48.other Labour shadow ministers I have interviewed that there is no
:07:49. > :07:52.appetite on the Labour front bench to delay this referendum. I think
:07:53. > :07:56.they would like to get on with it? S they want to get on with it, then
:07:57. > :08:00.wanted to succeed. They want the yes campaign to win. At the moment
:08:01. > :08:08.Labour is not doing very well with it. It ought to be a great hallmark
:08:09. > :08:12.for them. Labour is almost unequivocally pro-EU. They should be
:08:13. > :08:18.making a lot of capital against every split Tory party and they are
:08:19. > :08:23.not, really. It is not clear why. Maybe their hearts are not in it. It
:08:24. > :08:29.is led by two people who voted to come out into -- 19 75. Alan Johnson
:08:30. > :08:32.woman who is leading the campaign, does not appear to be making much
:08:33. > :08:37.headway. Maybe they are waiting until Cameron comes back with a
:08:38. > :08:41.package. I think they are missing a trick. The Eurosceptics want more
:08:42. > :08:47.time. They fear if it is rushed they will definitely lose. But for a
:08:48. > :08:55.June referendum in the Commons, it would need Labour as well. It is
:08:56. > :08:59.clearly not going to happen. The only thing that could stop it,
:09:00. > :09:02.because the numbers are now not in the Commons, is if the electoral
:09:03. > :09:06.commission, bearing in mind you have the leaders of the three devolved
:09:07. > :09:11.administrations saying they're not happy, that is the only thing that
:09:12. > :09:15.could potentially stop it. Now that the Labour Party is saying we should
:09:16. > :09:19.get on with it, it looks like that will happen. People like Steve Baker
:09:20. > :09:23.needs to be careful. They have been saying for 20 years we need a
:09:24. > :09:27.referendum. Here it is coming down the stream and they say, we are not
:09:28. > :09:32.sure about it. That potentially shows they are nervous about the
:09:33. > :09:36.case. One of the most telling thing is Steve Baker said was the number
:09:37. > :09:41.of Tory MPs who would vote to leave would be no more than 70, which is
:09:42. > :09:47.clearly expectations management on his party that's my part. What you
:09:48. > :09:56.have seen in the past 72 hours is expectations management on all
:09:57. > :10:02.sides. Downing Street is dampening down expectations. We are all
:10:03. > :10:06.massively impressed. I hope you are right that he is that clever. What
:10:07. > :10:10.worries me is that he has been reckless. He has put things out
:10:11. > :10:18.there that he could never get. He has not put everybody square. If not
:10:19. > :10:21.clever, certainly cynical. Steve Baker and the sceptics are playing
:10:22. > :10:29.down their expected numbers, even Cabinet ministers. The area where
:10:30. > :10:33.George Osborne thinks he will make the most fundamental and important
:10:34. > :10:40.changes as the exceptions for those countries not in the eurozone. That
:10:41. > :10:44.gets very little coverage. George Osborne says that is the most
:10:45. > :10:48.important thing we could get because it will play for decades to come.
:10:49. > :10:54.The territory they are fighting on is the area where they are quite
:10:55. > :10:58.weak, benefits reform. We will have another referendum in 2021 when
:10:59. > :11:03.treaty change takes place and the eurozone becomes a proper monetary
:11:04. > :11:07.union. I don't think anybody is go to do a treaty change for a long
:11:08. > :11:11.time. The mood across Europe, particularly about immigration and
:11:12. > :11:19.refugee is, I think nobody will want a treaty. It is all talk. I do not
:11:20. > :11:22.see it. I don't think anybody will trust their own electorate
:11:23. > :11:28.sufficiently at any particular point. They will look at hours with
:11:29. > :11:34.great interest. And they will say, don't go there. Before we go, a sad
:11:35. > :11:39.morning today. We learned that veteran broadcaster Terry Wogan has
:11:40. > :11:42.died at the age of 77 after a short battle with cancer. Over his many
:11:43. > :11:46.years in broadcasting, he interviewed a great number of
:11:47. > :11:50.people, including politicians. He really is talking to Margaret
:11:51. > :11:54.Thatcher. What do the next ten years hold for
:11:55. > :12:04.us and for our Prime Minister? Mrs Margaret Thatcher. You ever
:12:05. > :12:11.apprehensive? Are you ever nervous before you get up and speak? Always.
:12:12. > :12:15.And you would not speak well if you were not. I have been answering
:12:16. > :12:21.questions in the House every Tuesday and Thursday for ten years. And I am
:12:22. > :12:26.still just as nervous as I was at the beginning. It requires immense
:12:27. > :12:29.preparation. You have seen your share of trouble and strife and
:12:30. > :12:37.success. What have been your worst moments? The worst moment on totally
:12:38. > :12:42.was when the Argentinians invaded the Falkland Islands. I will never
:12:43. > :12:47.forget it. With the worries and some of the terrible problems you have
:12:48. > :12:54.had, do you have any time for personal worries? We have been very
:12:55. > :12:58.lucky. You know Dennis very well. You both belong to Lord's Tavern is.
:12:59. > :13:08.Everyone knows Dennis. He is marvellous! Why did your audience
:13:09. > :13:11.laugh when you mentioned him? He is held in great affection by everyone
:13:12. > :13:14.because he has the tremendous knack for saying things people would love
:13:15. > :13:18.to say but they're not. Terry Wogan, one of the most
:13:19. > :13:22.accomplished and professional, charming broadcasters in modern
:13:23. > :13:27.times. Sadly died this morning. We learn from his family. Terry Wogan.
:13:28. > :13:34.That is it for today. I thank all of my guests. The daily politics will
:13:35. > :13:37.be on BBC Two from noon tomorrow and every day next week, including Prime
:13:38. > :13:41.Minister's Questions on Wednesday. I am back your macro same time, same
:13:42. > :13:46.place next week. We will know more about the American election campaign
:13:47. > :14:20.by them. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:21. > :14:24.The Government thought it was the right thing to do.
:14:25. > :14:27.They're going to make me the demon of Peckham.
:14:28. > :14:31.to the decline and fall of a charity empire.
:14:32. > :14:35.Camila! I've got to go to my funeral appointment.