:00:37. > :00:40.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.We finally know what David Cameron wants
:00:43. > :00:45.as he attempts to reform our relationship with the EU.
:00:46. > :00:49.Does it deliver on his promises - and will it be enough to convince
:00:50. > :00:54.and most of us can't name our MEP.
:00:55. > :00:58.Is there a democratic crisis in the EU?
:00:59. > :01:02.Former Respect MP George Galloway and Labour's Stephen Kinnock go
:01:03. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn has plenty of new grassroots support.
:01:09. > :01:12.But is Labour facing a cash crisis thanks to a loss of money from big
:01:13. > :01:14.donors, taxpayers and Government plans to restrict union funding
:01:15. > :01:17.It is an affront on British democracy.
:01:18. > :01:24.If you look at any previous agreement which changed the funding
:01:25. > :01:27.of a political party, it was done on a consensual, cross-party basis.
:01:28. > :01:33.On the final leg of his mayoralty,
:01:34. > :01:36.but what does Boris Johnson's official diary tell us
:01:37. > :01:44.about his priorities these last two years?
:01:45. > :01:47.And joining me as always, three journalists who've got more
:01:48. > :01:50.opinions than the campaign to leave the EU has splinter groups.
:01:51. > :01:54.Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:55. > :01:57.We'll see if they're still on speaking terms by the end
:01:58. > :02:04.Let's start today by talking about what the Government in England
:02:05. > :02:06.is or isn't going to do about a sugar tax.
:02:07. > :02:09.Health experts have been calling for one, to tackle
:02:10. > :02:13.is a crisis in child obesity - but so far ministers
:02:14. > :02:17.Well, this morning the celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said
:02:18. > :02:20.to "get ninja" to force the Government to act.
:02:21. > :02:22.Here's the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responding
:02:23. > :02:24.on The Andrew Marr Show this morning.
:02:25. > :02:35.It has to be a game changing moment, a robust strategy.
:02:36. > :02:40.The issue here is, do what it takes to make sure
:02:41. > :02:43.that children consume less sugar, because we have got
:02:44. > :02:48.We are the most obese nation in the EU
:02:49. > :02:53.Well, we are going to be announcing in due course -
:02:54. > :02:57.David Cameron has said, if it isn't a sugar tax,
:02:58. > :03:00.it needs to be something that is equally robust.
:03:01. > :03:02.But he hasn't taken a sugar tax off the table.
:03:03. > :03:08.Will there be a sugar tax? His instinct is to say no, I do not want
:03:09. > :03:15.to run the nanny state that Jeremy Hunt says his one-year-old daughter,
:03:16. > :03:20.by the time she is an adult, one third of the population will be
:03:21. > :03:23.clinically obese and Public Health England shows if you introduce a
:03:24. > :03:28.sugar tax, you will reduce that some Jeremy Hunt is in favour but the
:03:29. > :03:34.Prime Minister is inching towards some decision, whether that is a
:03:35. > :03:45.sugar tax or not... Regional and devolved governments, Wales has been
:03:46. > :03:50.very keen on that. I feel I am at liberty to say this but Scotland
:03:51. > :03:57.also has greater tax-raising powers so he could get outflanked. Or wait
:03:58. > :04:04.and see how it does in Scotland and Wales and then decide to follow
:04:05. > :04:09.Yes. I want to make the liberal case against this but that ship has
:04:10. > :04:19.sailed decades ago, we tax alcohol and tobacco and this is more like a
:04:20. > :04:24.revenue raiser because that isn t -- a justifiable cause, we have a
:04:25. > :04:30.population with a sweet tooth that you can hit the revenue. That is the
:04:31. > :04:37.reasoning to deal with rather than the more censorious reason of
:04:38. > :04:39.monitoring behaviour. And junior doctors, scheduled to be back on
:04:40. > :04:47.strike on Wednesday in England, which means that some of the talks
:04:48. > :04:51.so far have failed? There is bad feeling but as Andrew Marr was
:04:52. > :04:58.saying, the turnout on the vote was very high, and the 8%. The
:04:59. > :05:03.government is really struggling to shake this debate and it is
:05:04. > :05:06.interesting with that interview Jeremy Hunt has said until now that
:05:07. > :05:11.the cost of the new contract would be revenue neutral, he now admits
:05:12. > :05:14.there would not only be a transitional cost but longer term
:05:15. > :05:19.and the government is really struggling on this. It is not affect
:05:20. > :05:23.emergency services this time. It was a big week for
:05:24. > :05:26.David Cameron's renegotiation He once promised a fundamental
:05:27. > :05:29.change in that relationship as a condition for backing
:05:30. > :05:32.the campaign to stay in. Well, there are changes -
:05:33. > :05:37.but perhaps not quite as fundamental And what he has achieved still needs
:05:38. > :05:41.to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit in a fortnight's
:05:42. > :05:44.time, where it could be But Mr Cameron says what he's
:05:45. > :05:50.achieved is so significant that if Britain was not an EU member
:05:51. > :05:54.this would make him want to join. Here he is speaking
:05:55. > :05:59.earlier in the week. I can say, hand on heart,
:06:00. > :06:01.I've delivered the commitments that I made in my manifesto,
:06:02. > :06:04.and I think the whole country knows that if you, for instance,
:06:05. > :06:06.pay people ?5,000, ?10,000 additional to their wages,
:06:07. > :06:09.then that is a draw to Britain, and that's one of
:06:10. > :06:11.the reasons why we've seen such high levels
:06:12. > :06:15.of migration and movement. So David Cameron says it lives up
:06:16. > :06:18.to everything that was promised in the Conservative
:06:19. > :06:19.election manifesto. I'm joined by former Cabinet
:06:20. > :06:30.minister Eric Pickles. Welcome back. You said this week the
:06:31. > :06:34.Prime Minister has kept to the letter and spirit of his manifesto
:06:35. > :06:40.promise. Let us look at what this promise. The manifesto said we will
:06:41. > :06:46.insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit
:06:47. > :06:51.must live here and contribute to the economy for a minimum of four years.
:06:52. > :07:00.The emergency rig on tax credits does not achieve that? -- brake You
:07:01. > :07:04.must bear in mind the things we can do through domestic law, a
:07:05. > :07:09.job-seeker from Europe who cannot find a job within six months, you
:07:10. > :07:19.are obliged to leave and that has been achieved through domestic law.
:07:20. > :07:26.The manifesto promised no in work benefits until you have been here
:07:27. > :07:30.for four years. The reality is graduated, they rise, and after four
:07:31. > :07:38.years you get the full benefit? That is not unreasonable. After four
:07:39. > :07:42.years to get full benefit but we know that the criteria for putting
:07:43. > :07:47.on the brake for four years has already been passed and the largest
:07:48. > :07:51.political party in the EU agrees that has happened and we should have
:07:52. > :07:56.this in place after the next referendum. It will have to be
:07:57. > :08:04.approved by the European Parliament and the other 27 members and what
:08:05. > :08:11.constitution, emergency, the cost to migrants is five billion pounds
:08:12. > :08:17.every year, we are 1.6 5 trillion economy, public spending is 750
:08:18. > :08:27.billion pounds. Why is ?500 million and emergency, only 1.6% of the
:08:28. > :08:31.bill? My earlier answer was, we already know the political leader of
:08:32. > :08:38.the largest political party in the Parliament of Europe has said it is
:08:39. > :08:44.the fact that we have arrived at those conditions and an emergency
:08:45. > :08:51.brake will be placed. What emergency? It is an emergency in the
:08:52. > :08:59.views of the European partners, they have accrued -- agreed to this
:09:00. > :09:02.emergency brake but in terms have the mechanism of Britain future for
:09:03. > :09:07.other countries, that will be decided over the next two weeks but
:09:08. > :09:15.what we do know as far as the UK is concerned, we will get that
:09:16. > :09:21.emergency brake. If a migrant Eilidh Child lives abroad, they should
:09:22. > :09:25.receive no child tax credit or benefit, no matter how long they
:09:26. > :09:31.have worked in the UK or how much tax they have paid. There it is The
:09:32. > :09:36.sentiment does not deliver on that either? What it does deliver is
:09:37. > :09:42.harmonisation of benefits so the level of benefits will be exactly
:09:43. > :09:50.the same as it would be in their own country. You are going to have 8
:09:51. > :09:56.different levels of child benefit! In many cases it can be as much as
:09:57. > :10:01.the quarter. And in some cases, more? Not many people to pay the
:10:02. > :10:09.same level that we don't but the point I was making is that in Poland
:10:10. > :10:15.it is a quarter of the level as it is here. You promised no child
:10:16. > :10:21.benefit for migrants and you're delivering index linked child
:10:22. > :10:26.benefit for migrants? It is a big improvement on the current
:10:27. > :10:31.situation. When you go into negotiation, but do precisely that
:10:32. > :10:36.and I think it is within the spirit of what we said. The manifesto said
:10:37. > :10:42.that you will control migration from the European Union by reforming
:10:43. > :10:48.welfare rolls and Mr Cameron at one stage said that reducing immigration
:10:49. > :10:53.from the European Union would be at the heart of this. Can you give us
:10:54. > :11:00.an idea of how much these changes will reduce European Union
:11:01. > :11:03.migration? I am not part of the negotiating team so all I can go
:11:04. > :11:11.wrong is what I have seen in newspapers and given that we know
:11:12. > :11:16.that in work benefits, 40% of new arrivals are supported by that and
:11:17. > :11:23.given that the average is ?6,00 in addition and can be as much as
:11:24. > :11:26.?10,000, it will have an effect You said 40% but that is not the figure,
:11:27. > :11:31.we know from the Freedom of Information release that if there
:11:32. > :11:36.had been any emergency brake in the last four years it would have
:11:37. > :11:43.affected 84,000 families. That is it, not 40%. I said that 40% of the
:11:44. > :11:50.new immigrants that, in, new migrants, claiming in work benefit,
:11:51. > :12:00.you are comparing apples and pears? I am not. 80,000 families is nowhere
:12:01. > :12:06.near 40%. Last year, 180,000 net migration from the EU. Do you have
:12:07. > :12:11.any idea by how much the figure will be reduced as a result of the
:12:12. > :12:16.settlement? Were not trying to prevent people living inside the
:12:17. > :12:22.European Union, we are trying to stop people coming for something for
:12:23. > :12:27.nothing, to claim from our innovative system and secondly, to
:12:28. > :12:32.ensure there is an equalisation inside the market of people coming
:12:33. > :12:37.here just because of our in work benefits. Since this will apply only
:12:38. > :12:42.to new migrants and not those that are already here, is unlikely to be
:12:43. > :12:48.a rush to come in before these restrictions in? And the figure
:12:49. > :12:55.could rise? As part of the negotiations we have to ensure that
:12:56. > :13:00.doesn't happen. We would have two ask as part of the negotiation. . To
:13:01. > :13:07.ensure that there isn't this new influx. In the manifesto you also
:13:08. > :13:13.said that we want national partners to be able to work together to block
:13:14. > :13:18.unwanted European legislation. In the Lisbon Treaty there is an orange
:13:19. > :13:25.card system that does that and we have the red card with Mr Cameron,
:13:26. > :13:30.is this an improvement? The Orange card has been used twice. That was
:13:31. > :13:37.yellow, orange has never been used. I beg your pardon. It is confusing!
:13:38. > :13:47.How many different cards? Three yellow and orange and this red card.
:13:48. > :13:52.In what way would the red card be any improvement on the existing
:13:53. > :13:57.Orange card, which means 51% of national parliaments can make the
:13:58. > :14:03.commission rethink? We can move much quicker in terms of trying to knock
:14:04. > :14:08.out any deal between European Parliaments and secondly, national
:14:09. > :14:15.parliaments are becoming much more assertive in terms of their session
:14:16. > :14:20.and that is a massively important step in the re-establishment in the
:14:21. > :14:25.importance of national parliaments. It is not just our Parliament, we
:14:26. > :14:30.would need to get 56% of national parliaments, at least 15 others and
:14:31. > :14:36.in many cases we would only have 12 weeks to ask them to vote against
:14:37. > :14:42.the policy of their own national government. That is not credible? Of
:14:43. > :14:46.course it is. I think this is a very important step on the way of
:14:47. > :14:53.ensuring national parliaments are much more assertive and don't
:14:54. > :14:55.forget, read this in line of stopping them moving towards ever
:14:56. > :15:02.closer union and protecting sterling. Let us look at that. It
:15:03. > :15:07.was meant to be one of the big wins for the Prime Minister, Donald Tusk,
:15:08. > :15:13.the President of the Council, says we have always had that, it need not
:15:14. > :15:14.mean integration for Britain, the settlement confirms only the status
:15:15. > :15:22.quo. It is very interesting for him to
:15:23. > :15:26.say that but on every programme that I've ever been on, it has been this
:15:27. > :15:30.drift towards ever closer union political union, that has been
:15:31. > :15:34.important. If it means we have now re-established that it is about give
:15:35. > :15:43.and take and cooperation, that is a great thing. Given how little the
:15:44. > :15:47.prime and this has achieved -- the Prime Minister has achieved, would
:15:48. > :15:50.his position not be undermined, or become untenable, if this draft
:15:51. > :15:57.settlement was further undermined before being finally agreed? I'm
:15:58. > :16:00.very confident, given that this Prime Minister is the only Prime
:16:01. > :16:04.Minister ever to take powers back from Europe, that it will be
:16:05. > :16:08.successful. But could you stomach of further watering down? It would
:16:09. > :16:13.depend what the overall position is but my position comes not from any
:16:14. > :16:18.enthusiasm for Europe. It's just a lack of any decent ideas that we
:16:19. > :16:22.would be better off outside. To come back to this business of the
:16:23. > :16:25.European Parliament, there are number of areas in which the
:16:26. > :16:29.European Parliament has to approve this settlement, including the work
:16:30. > :16:34.benefits, child benefit element perhaps even the red card. What
:16:35. > :16:38.guarantees can you give, because the European Parliament won't to do
:16:39. > :16:43.this, if it does it at all, until after the referendum... So how can
:16:44. > :16:47.you guarantee that we will vote to stay in and the European Parliament
:16:48. > :16:50.will not pass the legislation? We've had indications from the European
:16:51. > :16:56.Parliament that they will do precisely that. What I would hope...
:16:57. > :17:03.Where? Just a second. The leader of the largest party has said that I
:17:04. > :17:09.think what we would want to see over the next couple of weeks are more
:17:10. > :17:15.codification in terms of how this would come to operate, not just for
:17:16. > :17:18.us but for other parties. But if the European Parliament doesn't pass
:17:19. > :17:22.this, it is not legally binding The Prime Minister has told us that It
:17:23. > :17:24.can only be eagerly binding under the existing treaties with
:17:25. > :17:30.legislation through the European Parliament. You are asking the
:17:31. > :17:33.British people to vote blind, to vote yes, without really knowing
:17:34. > :17:38.what the European Parliament might do down the road in the autumn at
:17:39. > :17:45.the end of the year. I'm very confident that will be the case --
:17:46. > :17:49.won't be the case. It will be an appalling abuse of trust and would
:17:50. > :17:54.undermine the European Union, were it not to do so. But sooner or
:17:55. > :17:57.later, we are going to have to go on to discuss, what would the
:17:58. > :18:01.consequences be thus leaving? Because that would not be a
:18:02. > :18:05.pain-free experience. I really want the guarantees for those that want
:18:06. > :18:08.us to leave to say that my constituents and my constituents'
:18:09. > :18:13.children will be materially better off by leaving. Not just the same
:18:14. > :18:15.but better off by leaving. Eric Pickles, thanks for being with us
:18:16. > :18:18.this morning. Thank you. In recent weeks we've been debating
:18:19. > :18:21.some of the big issues at the heart We've covered immigration
:18:22. > :18:24.and the economy. Today we're going to look
:18:25. > :18:26.at Britain's sovereignty within the European Union and ask,
:18:27. > :18:28.is the EU a democratic club There are about 500 million people
:18:29. > :18:32.across the 28 member states Voters from these countries go
:18:33. > :18:36.to the polls every five years to elect 751 members
:18:37. > :18:38.of the European Parliament. The UK currently has
:18:39. > :18:42.73 MEPs, who have some say over the EU budget
:18:43. > :18:46.and new legislation. But it's the unelected Commission,
:18:47. > :18:49.led by President Jean-Claude Juncker, that is responsible
:18:50. > :18:53.for day-to-day management, plus proposing and
:18:54. > :18:57.implementing new laws. Later this month, David Cameron
:18:58. > :18:59.will attend a crucial meeting of the European Council
:19:00. > :19:02.to press for his draft settlement, the outcome of his
:19:03. > :19:06.efforts to renegotiate our terms The Council is made up of the 2
:19:07. > :19:13.heads of state or government of EU members and decides
:19:14. > :19:16.the Union's overall political But it's not to be confused with
:19:17. > :19:21.the Council of the European Union, where ministers from each
:19:22. > :19:25.country meet to discuss, There's always been
:19:26. > :19:29.concern about a so-called democratic deficit and at the last
:19:30. > :19:34.elections in 2014, turnout In the UK, where few people can
:19:35. > :19:41.even name a local MEP, I'm joined now by former Respect
:19:42. > :19:50.MP George Galloway - he's said this week he'll campaign
:19:51. > :19:53.for Britain to leave the EU - and by the Labour MP
:19:54. > :20:02.Stephen Kinnock, who wants Stephen Kinnock, let me come to you
:20:03. > :20:09.first. Turnout at the last election was under 36%. Only 11% can name
:20:10. > :20:12.their MEP. Richie Gray the EU has a massive democratic deficit and the
:20:13. > :20:16.Cameron settlement does nothing to address it, does it? On the
:20:17. > :20:22.democratic deficit, of course it would be good if more people voted
:20:23. > :20:24.in democratic elections but let s not forget there is another
:20:25. > :20:26.democratically elected institution in Brussels and that's the council
:20:27. > :20:31.of the vistas and the European council. They are ministers. Our
:20:32. > :20:35.Prime Minister, directly elected by the British people, going to
:20:36. > :20:39.Brussels to exert influence for Britain. The democratic deficit
:20:40. > :20:42.sometimes gets tied up with the European Parliament. That's an
:20:43. > :20:46.element of it but the council is a major part. On the renegotiation, I
:20:47. > :20:51.think the really important point is that this referendum is not about
:20:52. > :20:55.David Cameron's renegotiation. This referendum is about the future of
:20:56. > :21:00.the United Kingdom as a trading nation, as a proud nation in terms
:21:01. > :21:04.of a diplomatic big player and where we are actually going in terms of
:21:05. > :21:09.the long-term future of the country. It's not about the precise details
:21:10. > :21:14.of David Cameron's renegotiation. Mr Cameron think that is important
:21:15. > :21:17.George Galloway, you said you believe in a union of the peoples of
:21:18. > :21:21.Europe but surely the only realistic way to achieve that is to work for a
:21:22. > :21:33.reformed EU. Anything else is just rhetoric. No, because I think it is
:21:34. > :21:36.in the Brits of the EU. You pointed to the visibility of the European
:21:37. > :21:39.Parliament, its credibility and standing but you didn't add that the
:21:40. > :21:42.European Parliament itself, even if AT the centre people were turning
:21:43. > :21:48.out to vote for it, has almost no power. The power lies in this
:21:49. > :21:53.council of ministers and in a bureaucracy well entrenched, very
:21:54. > :21:57.lavishly funded, which has meant of its own. I could answer your
:21:58. > :22:05.question in two words - Catherine Ashton. Never heard of her? No. Ever
:22:06. > :22:08.elected to? No. She was the European Foreign Minister, dictating to other
:22:09. > :22:14.countries outside the world with no democratic mandate of any kind. I
:22:15. > :22:18.think we have to be more sensible about the way we talk about these
:22:19. > :22:21.things. There is a process of co-decision which is enshrined in
:22:22. > :22:26.the treaties of the European Union. The vast majority of the legislation
:22:27. > :22:29.which goes through has to be agreed by both the European Parliament and
:22:30. > :22:32.by the European council on the basis of proposals from the European
:22:33. > :22:39.Commission. Not necessarily all the council. Politics is the art of the
:22:40. > :22:43.possible and when you are part of a system of pooled sovereignty is
:22:44. > :22:46.when we come together as nation states because we believe our
:22:47. > :22:50.sovereignty is actually strengthened through cooperation, of course you
:22:51. > :22:54.have to make compromises. You don't win absolutely 100% of everything
:22:55. > :22:56.that you go for but actually, I believe that through corporation and
:22:57. > :23:01.pulling our sovereignty our sovereignty is strengthened. There
:23:02. > :23:04.has been a lot of talk by the Prime Minister about asserting the
:23:05. > :23:09.sovereignty of Parliament. It seems to be one of the carrots to attract
:23:10. > :23:13.Mr Boris Johnson to come onside But surely you have to accept that in
:23:14. > :23:16.many areas, the EU and the European Court of Justice, they are sovereign
:23:17. > :23:21.and Parliament has to recognise that sovereignty or we have to leave I
:23:22. > :23:26.think that we have to also look at the likes of Google or the big
:23:27. > :23:30.multinational companies. They don't recognise the concept of
:23:31. > :23:35.sovereignty. For people on the left, such as George and myself, the key
:23:36. > :23:39.point of the European Union is, it's a transnational body that regulating
:23:40. > :23:43.transnational business. Not very well. It is not regulating them very
:23:44. > :23:49.well. Much better than we could do them alone. I don't think so. The
:23:50. > :23:55.bottom line is... And this is to be, on the left. Mr Kinnock senior and I
:23:56. > :24:01.shared many platforms on this, as well as the late Mr Benn, the late
:24:02. > :24:07.Mr foot. This was commonplace on the left. We don't want to be dictated
:24:08. > :24:12.to by other countries. We want our people to choose our government and
:24:13. > :24:17.thus our direction. And I'd rather take my chance with changing things
:24:18. > :24:23.in Britain than waiting for a change in Bulgaria or in Poland. But you
:24:24. > :24:29.are nationalists and doesn't but inevitably involve some kind of
:24:30. > :24:33.pooling sovereignty? The whole basis of the European Union... As we
:24:34. > :24:37.always said from 1975 onwards, on the left, the European Community,
:24:38. > :24:43.now the EU, is actually built on neoliberal economic principles,
:24:44. > :24:49.which are ironclad and unchangeable. However people want to vote. Are you
:24:50. > :24:52.comfortable with the manner in which Greece's sovereignty was overturned
:24:53. > :24:58.by the European institutions and above all by companies -- countries
:24:59. > :25:02.like Germany? We live in a highly globalised, interdependent world and
:25:03. > :25:06.the idea that the UK alone can exert influence and regulate the big
:25:07. > :25:10.multinationals on its own is absurd. The other key point on Greece is,
:25:11. > :25:14.how would we help the people of Greece by leaving the EU? Our
:25:15. > :25:18.principles are about solidarity a key value on which European Union is
:25:19. > :25:23.founded, which is a value of the left. What was the solidarity that
:25:24. > :25:26.the EU showed Greece? I think what we need is a Labour Prime Minister
:25:27. > :25:33.in Brussels arguing against the politics of austerity. We are not
:25:34. > :25:40.part of the eurozone. This was a eurozone argument. We can still
:25:41. > :25:44.exert our influence. What many would think is your natural allies on the
:25:45. > :25:49.European left, so reads the increase, and a party in Spain, want
:25:50. > :25:54.to stay in the EU. Why are you right and your comrades wrong? The people
:25:55. > :25:58.of Greece were crushed underfoot by this neoliberal consensus on which
:25:59. > :26:04.the EU and administrations are built. Portugal actually had an
:26:05. > :26:10.election and elected a majority of left-wing MPs and we're told by the
:26:11. > :26:12.European Union, the president of Portugal was told, you mustn't
:26:13. > :26:16.summon these people to your palace to allow them to form a government.
:26:17. > :26:20.This is unconscionable. It's not because I love the people of Greece,
:26:21. > :26:25.though I do, or the people of Spain. I don't want us to face the same
:26:26. > :26:30.fate as them. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell's economic policies, which
:26:31. > :26:35.I believe in and which are badly needed, are illegal under the EU. If
:26:36. > :26:38.we were to save our steel industry, for example, we would be acting out
:26:39. > :26:43.with the European Union's legal framework. You've been closely
:26:44. > :26:48.involved in the steel industry. What do you say to that? I fail to see
:26:49. > :26:51.how our principles of solidarity and reaching out to our brothers and
:26:52. > :26:55.sisters in other parts of the year are helped by the idea that we
:26:56. > :26:57.suddenly leave. But to me seems to be going against the founding value
:26:58. > :27:03.of the Labour Party, which is solidarity. On steel, this is a
:27:04. > :27:06.classic example but it is up to your member state government to play the
:27:07. > :27:10.game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government that has been
:27:11. > :27:12.asleep at the wheel on steel for four or five years. An energy
:27:13. > :27:15.compensation package should have been put in place years ago. The
:27:16. > :27:20.government has done nothing about it. The massive flooding of Chinese
:27:21. > :27:24.steel into the British market has only been happening over the last
:27:25. > :27:28.four years. That could only be done by Europe, not Britain. It took them
:27:29. > :27:31.for years to get the stated clearance because nobody was
:27:32. > :27:34.knocking on the door properly in Brussels and because we are cosying
:27:35. > :27:40.up to Beijing. Cameron and Osborne seem to be putting the interests of
:27:41. > :27:42.our relationship with China ahead of British industry. We are allowing
:27:43. > :27:48.them to damp massive amounts of Chinese steel in the market. The
:27:49. > :27:49.European Court of Justice is preventing us from deporting
:27:50. > :27:54.Moroccan citizen, the daughter-in-law of Abu Hamza, Abu
:27:55. > :27:59.Hamza himself convicted of 11 terrorist offences. She has done
:28:00. > :28:02.time, too, for a terrorist elated offence. We still can't deport her.
:28:03. > :28:07.That is a pretty serious intrusion of our sovereignty. I don't know the
:28:08. > :28:11.details of that case but I do know we live in a very interdependent
:28:12. > :28:14.world... You said that. What people want to know is if we can deport
:28:15. > :28:18.foreign citizens who have terrorist criminal convictions. We did manage
:28:19. > :28:23.to do it with Abu Hamza, so there are ways. The EU is a rules -based
:28:24. > :28:28.organisation. It sets the rules of the game. It's up to the member
:28:29. > :28:31.states to play that game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government
:28:32. > :28:35.that has failed to build alliances and coalitions in Brussels. That's
:28:36. > :28:40.one of the reasons we have a difficult relationship with the EU
:28:41. > :28:44.now. When you look at this leave site and the various factions of the
:28:45. > :28:51.time they seem to be spending more time knocking lumps out of each
:28:52. > :28:54.other, does that make you happy you joined? I campaigned against
:28:55. > :28:56.breaking up Britain and for a no vote in the Scottish referendum
:28:57. > :29:02.That didn't mean I was with the Tories, didn't mean I was with the
:29:03. > :29:10.Orange order. So are you solo again? There used to be a commonplace view
:29:11. > :29:13.from the 1970s, and still standing now, for a democratic future for
:29:14. > :29:17.Britain. We decide how many immigrants we have, who we deport,
:29:18. > :29:21.what our levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be.
:29:22. > :29:23.We will leave it there. Thank you both.
:29:24. > :29:26.Labour says it faces losing more than a quarter of its funding,
:29:27. > :29:29.thanks to Government plans to change the way the party gets money
:29:30. > :29:31.from trade union members, along with moves to cut state
:29:32. > :29:35.In a rare TV outing, the party's general secretary
:29:36. > :29:37.Iain McNicol has told us just how damaging the changes could be.
:29:38. > :29:45.An audience of around 800 people turning out on a Thursday night
:29:46. > :29:47.in North London to watch well-known comedians,
:29:48. > :29:50.artistic and political types talk about, well,
:29:51. > :29:53.why Jeremy Corbyn ought to be Prime Minister.
:29:54. > :30:02.He wasn't here and this wasn't a fundraiser but similar nights
:30:03. > :30:06.to this have raised cash for the party.
:30:07. > :30:08.Welcome, one and all, you bunch of loony lefties.
:30:09. > :30:13.I started in my constituency in Brentford.
:30:14. > :30:18.And then other constituencies asked me to do the same thing
:30:19. > :30:55.and we've done 165 and raised ?100,000.
:30:56. > :30:57.And it's just as well, because the Labour Party
:30:58. > :31:00.says it could be about to lose about ?8 million of funding
:31:01. > :31:02.if Government plans to change the way it collects
:31:03. > :31:04.money from trade union members go through.
:31:05. > :31:05.And they say it's no laughing matter.
:31:06. > :31:07.It is an affront on British democracy.
:31:08. > :31:09.If you look at any previous agreement which changed
:31:10. > :31:12.the funding of a political party, it was done on a consensual,
:31:13. > :31:14.cross-party basis, an agreement because of the effect it had.
:31:15. > :31:17.So is this an existential threat to the Labour Party?
:31:18. > :31:20.It would be very difficult for the party.
:31:21. > :31:25.funding would mean that we would not be able to operate in the current
:31:26. > :31:27.way that we do, holding the Government to account
:31:28. > :31:31.The cash goes towards staffing, reportedly around
:31:32. > :31:33.half its costs, and, of course, campaigning.
:31:34. > :31:37.Things like party election broadcasts, battle buses,
:31:38. > :31:41.At the moment, trade union members have to actively opt
:31:42. > :31:43.out of paying towards the Labour Party.
:31:44. > :31:46.In the future, they would have to opt in, in writing,
:31:47. > :31:48.within three months - something Labour fear
:31:49. > :31:50.people just won't get round to doing.
:31:51. > :31:56.It also coincides with a 19% cut to so-called short money,
:31:57. > :32:02.cash given to all opposition parties to
:32:03. > :32:04.help with the costs of Parliamentary business -
:32:05. > :32:06.a sort of concession for not having the civil service
:32:07. > :32:10.But the man who used to be in charge of said civil
:32:11. > :32:12.service says the Government's plans are at best partisan.
:32:13. > :32:18.It goes to this wider question of what I would see
:32:19. > :32:20.as a worryingly authoritarian streak in government that finds it
:32:21. > :32:22.difficult to live with and accept challenge.
:32:23. > :32:25.I think that's something that people of all parties...
:32:26. > :32:26.I'm actually a crossbencher, not in any
:32:27. > :32:28.party, and I think, whichever party are in,
:32:29. > :32:33.There's nothing authoritarian about having something
:32:34. > :32:39.clearly flagged in our manifesto, voted for in a majority government
:32:40. > :32:41.and delivered on, and there's nothing authoritarian about having
:32:42. > :32:47.That's to say, if you're a Labour Party supporter and you're
:32:48. > :32:50.a member of a trade union, you actively choose to do it,
:32:51. > :32:52.rather than having it forced upon you
:32:53. > :32:55.Frankly, I think the Labour Party needs to get
:32:56. > :32:59.out and convince union members it's a good use of their money to give
:33:00. > :33:01.that money to the Labour Party, just as the Conservatives
:33:02. > :33:03.and Liberal Democrats have to convince people to give
:33:04. > :33:14.We don't rely on people accidentally giving
:33:15. > :33:24.Back in Kentish Town, the organisers here say a night
:33:25. > :33:27.like this is as much about raising awareness and morale as it is cash.
:33:28. > :33:29.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign relied on grassroots support.
:33:30. > :33:31.As the party's funding streams start to dry
:33:32. > :33:34.up, it it could well need to rely on people like this -
:33:35. > :33:37.people willing to come to a night about Jeremy Corbyn
:33:38. > :33:54.In fact, Mr Corbyn may prefer the thought of appealing
:33:55. > :33:56.to the wallets of people like this, rather than the traditional big
:33:57. > :33:58.donors, and number of whom have already publicly
:33:59. > :34:01.But fundraising made up just 3% of the
:34:02. > :34:06.The spotlight will now fall on how Labour pays its way in the future.
:34:07. > :34:09.And we now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland,
:34:10. > :34:11.who leave us for Sunday Politics Scotland.
:34:12. > :34:13.Now, this week in the House of Lords, Labour's peers
:34:14. > :34:15.will try to fight off the Government's plans to change
:34:16. > :34:18.the way union members give money to the party.
:34:19. > :34:21.The shadow leader in the Lords, Angela Smith, joins me now -
:34:22. > :34:23.and I should add we asked to speak to a Government minister
:34:24. > :34:28.For a change! Or not! If you join a trade union, why should part of the
:34:29. > :34:31.membership fee be given to the Labour Party without your explicit
:34:32. > :34:35.approval? It is a choice you can make and one of the things said
:34:36. > :34:40.during the House of Lords debate is a Conservative peer said, when was
:34:41. > :34:45.the evidence that people are forced to opt in? One of the key things is
:34:46. > :34:50.the government says you must opt in rather than quite but when they gave
:34:51. > :34:54.businesses two years to bring in the plastic bag levy, they gave trade
:34:55. > :34:59.unions three months to change them into our system. In three years
:35:00. > :35:09.would you change your mind? Well, no. It's not really a matter of
:35:10. > :35:14.time, then? Within three months in writing, the government is making
:35:15. > :35:18.this as difficult as possible. When this was looked at, it was amenable
:35:19. > :35:24.of a number of -- context of a number of aspects and they are not
:35:25. > :35:28.giving any other changes on those affecting themselves, only the
:35:29. > :35:34.Labour Party. Many members do not vote Labour, why should they have to
:35:35. > :35:39.opt out? Surely those who want to join Labour should have to opt in?
:35:40. > :35:45.There does not seem to be any problem with people being asked to
:35:46. > :35:50.opt out. Look at this in the context of funding for all parties, the
:35:51. > :35:53.government have picked one recommendation from the committee of
:35:54. > :35:56.standards in public life, the one that reflects the Labour Party adds
:35:57. > :36:02.nothing to look at Conservative Party funding, blatantly partisan
:36:03. > :36:10.and unfair. But is it wrong within its own right? Labour depends on
:36:11. > :36:17.inertia, people pay the levy but they don't want to and they do not
:36:18. > :36:20.know about opting out? Isn't it time we stopped tracking nonlabour
:36:21. > :36:28.voters? Nobody is tracking anybody, that is grossly misrepresenting In
:36:29. > :36:36.the context of all of these public life issues, you can do it but they
:36:37. > :36:42.say themselves, tracking, the Conservatives talk about the burden
:36:43. > :36:45.on trade unions, this is unfair It will ensure that in that short space
:36:46. > :36:50.of time they will not be able to reach everybody. You said that even
:36:51. > :36:57.in two years you would still be against it. That is not exactly what
:36:58. > :37:00.I said, over a longer period of time, in the context of all the
:37:01. > :37:05.other measures that have been addressed on party funding, what is
:37:06. > :37:09.unfair is this is one measure affecting one party. You understand
:37:10. > :37:19.the government is picking on you. Not just me! In the United States,
:37:20. > :37:26.Bernie Sanders, on the left of the party, he has no union backing or
:37:27. > :37:29.big donors or business backing. He managed to get, not even running
:37:30. > :37:38.nationwide, over 3 million individual donations. He raised $20
:37:39. > :37:41.million in January. Jeremy Corbyn is striking a chord with people who
:37:42. > :37:48.have never been involved before Why not raise more money from ordinary
:37:49. > :37:52.sympathisers. Do not think for one moment that trade unionists who
:37:53. > :37:58.could opt in are not ordinary Labour Party, many of them are and over
:37:59. > :38:02.longer period you would not see the drop off the Conservative Party is
:38:03. > :38:08.hoping for. $20 million in one month. That is amazing and I would
:38:09. > :38:13.like to change how we can fund political parties and that is what
:38:14. > :38:17.the committee looked at, reducing the cap on donations, reducing the
:38:18. > :38:24.spending limits and it did look at -- look at trade unionists funding.
:38:25. > :38:31.How much do you raise from individual members? About two thirds
:38:32. > :38:40.of funding. Excluding a good donors? I could not give you that figure.
:38:41. > :38:46.Isn't that the way the Labour should reduce its dependence on the unions,
:38:47. > :38:50.?8 million from the unions at the moment, and many people in the party
:38:51. > :38:56.used to think that kind of funding was a disadvantage for the party
:38:57. > :39:02.because you are more than unions. Would that not be one way of getting
:39:03. > :39:06.small, individual donations to bring in a lot of money and show that you
:39:07. > :39:11.are not in the pocket of anybody? Over the course of Parliament it is
:39:12. > :39:14.about ?8 million every year that is just one third of the money that we
:39:15. > :39:21.get from all areas, donations from members also. What I am looking at
:39:22. > :39:26.is the Conservative Party that so dislikes the unions, it wants to cut
:39:27. > :39:31.their funding to not just us but in the work they do. If they want to do
:39:32. > :39:35.that, look at parting funding overall but it is ill-conceived to
:39:36. > :39:40.just look at modelling the opposition. I take your point that
:39:41. > :39:48.they are not stopping big donors from giving themselves money but
:39:49. > :39:51.have you not become more dependent on the unions? At one stage we
:39:52. > :39:57.thought you were becoming less so but more than ever, and the leader
:39:58. > :40:02.seems to make that dependency even greater? According to a recent
:40:03. > :40:09.report, Jeremy Corbyn treats big Labour donors with disdain and has
:40:10. > :40:14.abandoned fundraising. We look at all members and supporters for
:40:15. > :40:17.donations but I will not apologise for our relationship with trade
:40:18. > :40:24.unions, we grew out of them and we work together on issues. What I am
:40:25. > :40:28.asking is, are you not becoming overly dependent on them? And
:40:29. > :40:31.becoming vulnerable to this time of action from a Conservative
:40:32. > :40:39.government? Our donations continue to increase, I cannot give you
:40:40. > :40:45.figures, I do not do those sums I cannot remember them. I haven't got
:40:46. > :40:52.a photographic memory! I know the problem! Are you going to block this
:40:53. > :40:57.in the House of Lords? You may not like this but it was in the Tory
:40:58. > :41:02.manifesto? This came from cross-party, let us investigate this
:41:03. > :41:06.properly, let us take not just my word or the word of the Labour
:41:07. > :41:11.Party, let's have a cross-party look at what the Tory party is trying to
:41:12. > :41:15.do and I would put store by that. Let's look at the report on the 29th
:41:16. > :41:19.of the brewery. Thank you very much. -- February.
:41:20. > :41:21.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking to an MP
:41:22. > :41:24.from the latest Eurosceptic group hoping to be chosen as the official
:41:25. > :41:32.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:41:33. > :41:38.This week we ask whether it's the end of social housing
:41:39. > :41:49.On the final leg of his mayoralty, we take a look
:41:50. > :41:55.at the Mayor's official diary and consider what he's been doing
:41:56. > :41:58.Here this week, Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster
:41:59. > :42:01.North and her constituency neighbour, Mark Field,
:42:02. > :42:07.Conservative MP for the Cities of London and Westminster.
:42:08. > :42:10.Our own cosy little Westminster bubble this week.
:42:11. > :42:12.First up, David Cameron is happy to be judged,
:42:13. > :42:19.I think it is certainly good enough for London.
:42:20. > :42:24.I personally want to stay in the EU, I don't think we're going to get
:42:25. > :42:25.a massive reform and renegotiation programme.
:42:26. > :42:27.Actually, to be honest, David Cameron has got
:42:28. > :42:29.rather more than I thought was likely nine months ago.
:42:30. > :42:31.But I think as far as Londoners are concerned,
:42:32. > :42:34.We recognise the importance of trading.
:42:35. > :42:36.Not just within the EU but also beyond that
:42:37. > :42:40.But I think that realistically, it is in the national
:42:41. > :42:42.interest that we stay members of the EU.
:42:43. > :42:45.It is still seen as very complicated but those in the know
:42:46. > :42:48.seem to suggest that there are pointers there as to what the city
:42:49. > :42:50.Short selling, how much capital ranks
:42:51. > :42:54.There are good signs there that the city has preserved?
:42:55. > :42:56.That is right, there are some positive signs.
:42:57. > :42:59.Also, the key issue of saying that our status as a long-term,
:43:00. > :43:01.probably permanent, member of a group that would be
:43:02. > :43:04.outside the single currency will not impinge upon the city,
:43:05. > :43:08.particularly if there is to be more institutional
:43:09. > :43:10.change within the Eurozone, having had the central Eurozone bank
:43:11. > :43:14.and everything else that follows from
:43:15. > :43:20.On balance, there are a range of issues.
:43:21. > :43:23.I think it is very important for those of us who want to stay
:43:24. > :43:25.in the EU to have an hysterical argument on this.
:43:26. > :43:29.London will be a great capital if we are outside the EU.
:43:30. > :43:36.I just happen to think that it is more
:43:37. > :43:39.risky getting out and broadly, it is in our national interests
:43:40. > :43:43.Would you have thought an emergency brake was necessary to prevent
:43:44. > :43:45.levels of migration reaching the stage in London where people
:43:46. > :43:47.start to say, this is putting pressure on public services?
:43:48. > :43:50.Well, I think we know that the benefits issue,
:43:51. > :43:52.and all the evidence suggest it's a major factor,
:43:53. > :43:55.it is not real, it is something that people have a strong
:43:56. > :43:57.perception about and there has been great media interest in.
:43:58. > :44:00.But it is a bit of a sideshow and I think all of the negotiations
:44:01. > :44:03.were seen so far have been relatively small and I am
:44:04. > :44:06.not overly worried about them and in our manifesto we said
:44:07. > :44:10.we wanted to do something about some of the benefit entitlements as well,
:44:11. > :44:11.to deal with this issue of perception.
:44:12. > :44:17.People wanting to kmow the system is fair.
:44:18. > :44:21.But what we found is we're playing a dangerous game and the whole
:44:22. > :44:23.negotiations on the referendum have very much been about the internal
:44:24. > :44:25.politics of the Conservative Party rather than the
:44:26. > :44:28.interests of either business or the country as a whole.
:44:29. > :44:31.And we have seen from the media reaction this week
:44:32. > :44:38.just how far short it has fallen of what they were hoping to get
:44:39. > :44:43.His views were eagerly sought on the EU
:44:44. > :44:48.Penning a weekly newspaper column, currently writing a book
:44:49. > :44:49.on Shakespeare, a Member of Parliament
:44:50. > :44:52.and, for a little longer, the Mayor of London, too.
:44:53. > :44:55.So what conclusions can one draw from looking at his official diary
:44:56. > :45:17.September 2014, the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has a weak
:45:18. > :45:22.Thank you very much for awaiting such a long time.
:45:23. > :45:24.I am very pleased to say that the association
:45:25. > :45:27.have done with the honour of picking me to fight the election
:45:28. > :45:33.With all this attention on his return to
:45:34. > :45:36.Parliament, maybe save the inevitable result is that Doris
:45:37. > :45:37.Johnson will become a part-time Mayor.
:45:38. > :45:40.So, to see what difference it really made to his scheduling,
:45:41. > :45:42.Sunday Politics London acquired a copy of the Mayor's diary
:45:43. > :45:44.through a Freedom of Information request.
:45:45. > :45:46.We compared the 12 months starting September 2014,
:45:47. > :45:48.when he was selected to fight Uxbridge and compared
:45:49. > :45:51.However, rather than a drop-off in activity, we counted a slight
:45:52. > :45:53.increase in the number of appointments.
:45:54. > :45:55.But there are questions about how Boris
:45:56. > :45:59.Johnston has chosen to prioritise his time.
:46:00. > :46:01.Obviously, analysing the Mayor s diary doesn't tell you everything
:46:02. > :46:03.about what the Mayor does with his time.
:46:04. > :46:06.On the other hand, it is a piece of minor science and understanding
:46:07. > :46:09.the broad distribution of the Mayor's time in terms
:46:10. > :46:14.of particular issues and so I think in an area of media transparency,
:46:15. > :46:18.all Mayors must expect this kind of analysis.
:46:19. > :46:22.The single biggest thing you could do for London
:46:23. > :46:24.at the moment is to build tens if not
:46:25. > :46:29.The Mayor is fond of saying that his priority is housing.
:46:30. > :46:31.However, our analysis of his diary shows more
:46:32. > :46:34.issues devoted to Conservative Party political liberty than any other
:46:35. > :46:45.This compares to 223 for transport, 197 for meeting the media
:46:46. > :46:46.and housing a distant fourth, with just
:46:47. > :46:58.Labour say he has got his priorities wrong.
:46:59. > :47:02.He is spending more time on Conservative Party
:47:03. > :47:04.activities or meeting with the Preston dealing with issues
:47:05. > :47:07.And what we can see is that he has been
:47:08. > :47:10.demob happy but that is not just over the election,
:47:11. > :47:15.City Hall told us that just looking at entries marked in the diary
:47:16. > :47:19.You're drawing conclusions from the title
:47:20. > :47:21.of a meeting or who that meeting is with.
:47:22. > :47:25.What is quite clear is that a part of the Mayor's work is through those
:47:26. > :47:29.meetings, and there are thousands
:47:30. > :47:35.And in addition to that he will be meeting
:47:36. > :47:38.with senior advisers, talking to people, driving
:47:39. > :47:44.But perhaps more than the number of diary entries
:47:45. > :47:47.dedicated to issues like housing is Boris Johnson's record that
:47:48. > :47:55.Indeed, but let us look at this minor piece of science.
:47:56. > :48:03.I think the delivery is were the problem is rather
:48:04. > :48:06.than the diary and I think it sort of reflects the fact
:48:07. > :48:10.that he is a man, he is a showman and a
:48:11. > :48:13.character who simply has not spent time and effort getting to grips
:48:14. > :48:16.with the very serious problems that London faces.
:48:17. > :48:18.That has certainly been true in his last year,
:48:19. > :48:20.he has diffused his energies coming into
:48:21. > :48:22.Parliament and he has let things slip.
:48:23. > :48:24.Look at what is happening in London, there are 10,000 people
:48:25. > :48:27.dying every year from pollution violent crime is going up.
:48:28. > :48:29.We're just not seeing any real focus from
:48:30. > :48:32.Boris on those issues and I think that diary pretty well tells us
:48:33. > :48:35.where his energy and priorities have been.
:48:36. > :48:39.To coin a phrase, this is an inverted pyramid
:48:40. > :48:47.Boris, of course, has party activity, everyone has party
:48:48. > :48:52.activity in the run-up to an election and if he was going
:48:53. > :48:55.to be the MP for the Outer Hebrides, I could say, yes, you are splitting
:48:56. > :48:58.But let's be honest, the priorities that
:48:59. > :49:01.he has as the Mayor of London are not dissimilar to the ones
:49:02. > :49:08.One of the great things about Boris Johnson,
:49:09. > :49:11.as everyone who has known him, and I have known over half
:49:12. > :49:13.my life because we were at university together and beyond,
:49:14. > :49:17.He has a great team around him from the days
:49:18. > :49:19.of being president of the Oxford union to being editor
:49:20. > :49:21.of The Spectator to being Mayor of London.
:49:22. > :49:23.He has got very good people around him.
:49:24. > :49:26.He gives the strategic overview and they get on and do quite a lot
:49:27. > :49:29.So this really is an absolute nonstory.
:49:30. > :49:33.I think Boris has been utterly focused right through and obviously,
:49:34. > :49:36.we're now in a position in the last few months of the Mayorlty,
:49:37. > :49:40.he has a whole range of issues from Crossrail to issues
:49:41. > :49:44.to do with housing, which I think the record is strong,
:49:45. > :49:46.particularly in the last two or three years.
:49:47. > :49:48.So very briefly, what is wrong with delegating if you get
:49:49. > :49:51.There is nothing wrong with delegating.
:49:52. > :49:54.We have this incredible city which faces a lot of challenges
:49:55. > :49:57.and I just think that Londoners deserve someone who is fully focused
:49:58. > :50:00.Of course that does not mean that every minute
:50:01. > :50:02.is going to be spent without doing any party meetings or media,
:50:03. > :50:08.But it is also to do with the issues, the concern that
:50:09. > :50:11.Things like crime and pollution that Boris does not
:50:12. > :50:17.The Government's Housing Bill, which starts being considered
:50:18. > :50:19.in the House of Lords this week, risks bringing
:50:20. > :50:22.about the end of social housing as we know it.
:50:23. > :50:24.That, according to Lord Kerslake, formerly the country's
:50:25. > :50:27.He now chairs the Peabody Housing Association and is leading
:50:28. > :50:30.a research project for the IPPR think-tank on what the answers are.
:50:31. > :50:39.After the Second World War, there was a major
:50:40. > :50:41.programme of public sector house-building to improve
:50:42. > :50:46.the quality of housing for ordinary people.
:50:47. > :50:49.There was also a major private sector house-building programme
:50:50. > :50:53.and these two went together to see the highest levels of new housing
:50:54. > :50:56.supply that we'd seen for a long period.
:50:57. > :51:02.But today, London is in the midst of a full-scale housing crisis,
:51:03. > :51:05.with the prices to buy and to rent moving
:51:06. > :51:11.The Housing Bill, whilst it has some good things in it,
:51:12. > :51:15.is essentially focused on favouring one type of housing -
:51:16. > :51:20.home ownership - at the expense of another, social rented.
:51:21. > :51:25.Thus ending the post-war consensus that we needed to build houses
:51:26. > :51:31.of all types in order to meet the different needs of Londoners.
:51:32. > :51:33.The Housing Bill opens up housing association properties
:51:34. > :51:40.The funding of the discounts for those right to buy properties
:51:41. > :51:44.will be paid for by forcing local authorities to sell their council
:51:45. > :51:51.stock when it becomes vacant. Because house prices in London
:51:52. > :51:56.are so high, it's likely that London will be funding over half
:51:57. > :52:01.of the cost of this new initiative and, in some boroughs,
:52:02. > :52:05.such as Westminster and Camden, it's possible that up to two thirds
:52:06. > :52:12.of council houses will be forced to be sold.
:52:13. > :52:14.The Government say they want to replace every
:52:15. > :52:17.council house sold with two new houses.
:52:18. > :52:22.However, the new houses are very unlikely to be in the same
:52:23. > :52:26.neighbourhoods as the houses that are sold, nor are they likely to be
:52:27. > :52:35.If they're one of the new starter homes, then the housing
:52:36. > :52:38.charity Shelter have said that you would need a salary of 77,0 0
:52:39. > :52:49.That's not affordable for the majority of
:52:50. > :52:53.When you combine these new policies, the extension of right to buy
:52:54. > :52:55.to housing associations, the forced sale of council
:52:56. > :53:00.properties to pay for the right to buy discounts and changes
:53:01. > :53:03.to the way tenancies work for new tenants and put that
:53:04. > :53:07.alongside the existing housing crisis, then I think
:53:08. > :53:11.ordinary Londoners are going to ask where the housing of the future
:53:12. > :53:20.I'm joined by Bill Davies from the think tank the Institute
:53:21. > :53:22.for Public Policy Research, working with Lord Kerslake
:53:23. > :53:27.Let's just bury down into this detail about how this might impact
:53:28. > :53:31.Because of the value of the homes, more might be sold.
:53:32. > :53:34.The money from that will then be used to fund the policy up
:53:35. > :53:40.There's a connection between Right to Buy voluntary deal
:53:41. > :53:42.for housing associations that needs to be funded,
:53:43. > :53:46.effectively by selling off high-value council homes,
:53:47. > :53:49.so in order to fund that policy, which is
:53:50. > :53:52.just at pilot stage at the moment, they will need to sell quite a lot
:53:53. > :53:57.And we know where a lot of the high-value homes are,
:53:58. > :54:06.We heard a figure there of about two thirds,
:54:07. > :54:08.or a suggestion two thirds in Westminster and Camden -
:54:09. > :54:10.we will come onto our Westminster MPs
:54:11. > :54:13.in a moment - but presumably that number isn't going to become vacant
:54:14. > :54:16.Two thirds is an awful lot, isn't it?
:54:17. > :54:20.Two thirds are technically in scope to be those kind of high-value
:54:21. > :54:23.properties that will be needed but they can see rates are actually
:54:24. > :54:25.really quite low, especially in high-value homes,
:54:26. > :54:27.and I think we need a lot of those high-value homes
:54:28. > :54:29.to keep down the housing benefit bill, too.
:54:30. > :54:32.They will often be quite large and house families that would be
:54:33. > :54:34.extremely expensive to move into the private rented sector,
:54:35. > :54:36.so a lot of those properties are actually
:54:37. > :54:41.And what are the early signals if, as Lord Kerslake suggests,
:54:42. > :54:44.it's going to be very difficult to replace the one that you get rid
:54:45. > :54:47.of with two, and if you do, certainly
:54:48. > :54:54.What's the outcome of the consequences of that,
:54:55. > :55:01.I think we've seen from past programmes where homes
:55:02. > :55:04.have been sold - for instance, right to buy in the 1980s,
:55:05. > :55:06.1990s and 2000s - that it's really difficult to replace
:55:07. > :55:11.Even if you get the kind of receipts that you need to be able to deliver
:55:12. > :55:15.time you got round to delivering it, land prices in London are so high
:55:16. > :55:18.and rising so quickly that replacing that is going to be
:55:19. > :55:23.So it's not just a kind of issue of technically,
:55:24. > :55:26.It's also about the rising values of homes that does
:55:27. > :55:28.make it a lot more difficult to deliver.
:55:29. > :55:31.Your thoughts on what the potential impact of this could be?
:55:32. > :55:35.Well, it's a further downward spiral in the story of social housing.
:55:36. > :55:38.We've lost almost a half of the social housing stock in large
:55:39. > :55:40.parts of London over a long period of
:55:41. > :55:44.As Bill has said, one of the immediate impact of that is,
:55:45. > :55:48.we're spending money on supporting low-income households in private
:55:49. > :55:51.sector housing, which is vastly more expensive.
:55:52. > :55:54.So you've got a housing benefit bill that soared up to ?24
:55:55. > :55:59.If we see a further loss - and it won't happen overnight -
:56:00. > :56:02.either the right to buy and housing association properties
:56:03. > :56:06.or the high-value homes being sold, we will
:56:07. > :56:11.see a further backing up of families who simply can't afford to buy
:56:12. > :56:14.into a very high cost private rented sector,
:56:15. > :56:17.and the taxpayer ends up funding that.
:56:18. > :56:20.So it's a very, very foolish thing to do and it does mean
:56:21. > :56:24.a huge number of people simply can't afford to buy these kind of values
:56:25. > :56:28.I think you are being overly negative.
:56:29. > :56:33.I think there's a lot of good in this
:56:34. > :56:36.Housing and Planning Bill but I do accept there are some exceptions
:56:37. > :56:40.We have a very skewed housing market, becoming even more polarised
:56:41. > :56:43.in the time that Karen and I in the last decade and a half
:56:44. > :56:46.or more have been local MPs, between the very rich -
:56:47. > :56:50.is a global capital now - and those who are qualifying
:56:51. > :56:53.And actually, the biggest losers in our constituency are the private
:56:54. > :56:56.renters, people who have to rent and are often paying three
:56:57. > :56:59.times as much as people in social housing for almost the selfsame
:57:00. > :57:03.So I think we need to look at this whole aspect of intermediate
:57:04. > :57:06.housing, and the truth is quite a lot of housing associations have
:57:07. > :57:08.got no idea who is living in their stock
:57:09. > :57:11.There is a lot of illegal subletting that goes on,
:57:12. > :57:13.which isn't an ideal situation, either.
:57:14. > :57:17.I'm not saying it doesn't happen but there's no evidence that it s
:57:18. > :57:20.Well, dare I say it, most of the providers,
:57:21. > :57:21.providing they get the money coming through
:57:22. > :57:24.the door, they don't ask any questions, and some of that money
:57:25. > :57:27.often comes from the housing benefit bill, to which you've referred
:57:28. > :57:29.as well, which is, again, part of the
:57:30. > :57:32.It really is an absolute mess that is in place.
:57:33. > :57:34.Listen, we're both parents of children and we look
:57:35. > :57:37.at the opportunities we had to buy property that,
:57:38. > :57:38.you know, like many central Londoners think, "How
:57:39. > :57:41.are my children ever going to get on the
:57:42. > :57:45.I think it is right that the Government are trying
:57:46. > :57:48.to address this but I do accept that there are some specific
:57:49. > :57:50.exceptions for bits of central London and I'd
:57:51. > :57:52.like to see local authorities, perhaps throughout central London,
:57:53. > :57:56.not necessarily on one by one basis, but across the party political
:57:57. > :58:00.divide, being able to give some thought to how they make this work
:58:01. > :58:03.and I think we'll see some of that in the House of Lords.
:58:04. > :58:06.I think it's absolutely right that we address the issue
:58:07. > :58:08.of affordable homeownership as well as homes to rent.
:58:09. > :58:12.We are in a critical situation on both of those.
:58:13. > :58:15.I think there was some research done by Shelter last week that showed
:58:16. > :58:18.nine out of ten London parents fear that their children are not
:58:19. > :58:20.going to be able to find a home in London.
:58:21. > :58:23.But this housing bill, as Bob Kerslake showed in his film,
:58:24. > :58:27.is saying that affordable so-called homes to buy can be
:58:28. > :58:35.Yeah, but in central London that's going to be what it comes in us
:58:36. > :58:41.You need to earn more than Mark and I do as members of Parliament
:58:42. > :58:43.to be able to afford to buy a home that is deemed
:58:44. > :58:49.What is the point of the starter homes thing, then?
:58:50. > :58:51.Listen, I think we have to do something.
:58:52. > :58:53.We cannot simply say, the starter home
:58:54. > :58:56.initiative just won't apply to certain parts of the country
:58:57. > :58:58.And I accept it is a very expensive part
:58:59. > :59:04.And it has become a lot more expensive in the days gone by.
:59:05. > :59:07.But we have to make a move somewhere along the line.
:59:08. > :59:10.But I think there needs to be some recognition within this legislation
:59:11. > :59:12.that the issues that face London, particularly central
:59:13. > :59:14.London, are fundamentally different in nature.
:59:15. > :59:17.Do you think, if you were honest, that in ten years there
:59:18. > :59:19.would be quite a considerably different composition
:59:20. > :59:28.in your wards, in terms of housing and housing stock?
:59:29. > :59:30.I think it will be a little bit different.
:59:31. > :59:32.It would be naive to suggest that there won't
:59:33. > :59:35.be some diminishing in the social housing stock but I think that's
:59:36. > :59:38.because a lot of that will be driven by availability coming up
:59:39. > :59:41.at a particular time and I think that
:59:42. > :59:44.across the party political divide, I don't think there is a sense
:59:45. > :59:46.that we don't want to have a borough that is
:59:47. > :59:50.just made up of the rich and perhaps even people who are letting property
:59:51. > :59:53.who are living overseas, that would be a very bad state
:59:54. > :59:56.of affairs and I think we have to try to clamp down
:59:57. > :59:59.But you touched on one thing already, of course.
:00:00. > :00:01.This process of selling council stock.
:00:02. > :00:03.It happened quite slowly and people will not necessarily notice it?
:00:04. > :00:09.I am not saying it will happen overnight
:00:10. > :00:11.because what is happening, the London housing market is very
:00:12. > :00:14.different to what it was when Right to Buy was happening
:00:15. > :00:19.There is a lot of investor money out there and one of the things
:00:20. > :00:22.we absolutely know is that ex-Right to Buy properties,
:00:23. > :00:25.around one third of those in some areas are not back
:00:26. > :00:31.This doesn't actually help home ownership.
:00:32. > :00:35.What it does is it further fuels the minority who can
:00:36. > :00:37.afford either as companies or individuals, who can afford
:00:38. > :00:41.to buy these properties and then they let
:00:42. > :00:53.The challenge of how you're going to sell this...
:00:54. > :00:55.There are a range of challenges across such a wide range
:00:56. > :00:58.of factors that there is no one silver bullet that's going to fix
:00:59. > :01:04.The Housing Commission at the moment are
:01:05. > :01:10.But what is clear is that we need the London housing market
:01:11. > :01:14.We need more social housing, we need more intermediate homes that
:01:15. > :01:16.people can buy and rent but we also need more
:01:17. > :01:20.But it has to come from a range of policy measures across land
:01:21. > :01:21.planning, construction capacity and new developers.
:01:22. > :01:24.We will be looking at that in more detail in future.
:01:25. > :01:42.Transport for London announced new policies
:01:43. > :01:47.Including developing a world leading safety
:01:48. > :01:49.standard for London, updating bus contracts to include
:01:50. > :01:51.new safety incentives and providing a UK first
:01:52. > :01:58.Some residents in Hampstead want a degree
:01:59. > :02:02.of independence from the rest of Camden.
:02:03. > :02:04.They want Hampstead to become a parish council, in part,
:02:05. > :02:06.to have more say over local development on
:02:07. > :02:12.7.5% of residents need to sign up for the proposal
:02:13. > :02:16.before it can go in front of Camden Council.
:02:17. > :02:19.Labour's mayoral candidate, the MP for Tooting, Sadiq Khan,
:02:20. > :02:23.said he has set out his vision for London.
:02:24. > :02:25.He plans to revive former Mayor Ken Livingstone's affordable
:02:26. > :02:30.He said that half of all new homes in the capital
:02:31. > :02:36.He also pledged to make it easier and
:02:37. > :02:43.cheaper to part buy, part rent a new home.
:02:44. > :02:46.Go on, let's talk about the mayoral contest.
:02:47. > :02:48.Who has got the answers to London's housing
:02:49. > :02:52.I think Zac's got some very good answers.
:02:53. > :02:55.Not least because I think he's going to work with central government
:02:56. > :02:58.It is all very well spouting off, saying, "this is what I want to do,"
:02:59. > :03:01.but you have to work with whoever is in
:03:02. > :03:03.government and clearly there is a Conservative government
:03:04. > :03:05.there and the fact that Zac has been able to
:03:06. > :03:08.ensure that there are changes to the Housing and Planning Bill
:03:09. > :03:10.that are very much focused on what he wants
:03:11. > :03:12.to do in London suggests that he has a plan.
:03:13. > :03:15.I don't think you want the Conservative
:03:16. > :03:18.government's representative in London.
:03:19. > :03:21.You want a mayor who will champion London to government and Sadiq Khan
:03:22. > :03:25.has got the experience and an incredible story.
:03:26. > :03:27.He is the story of London, from a council
:03:28. > :03:30.house to a homeowner - he understands both sides of it
:03:31. > :03:33.He's got a plan, which is about working sure that developers
:03:34. > :03:39.targets for 50% of affordable housing and giving Londoners first
:03:40. > :03:45.Getting a new rental model in, which is tied to a third
:03:46. > :03:47.of average rents to meet some of those intermediate
:03:48. > :03:51.For the first time in this campaign, you think people will try
:03:52. > :03:54.Because it is a complex issue with housing,
:03:55. > :03:57.the things that people will want to know?
:03:58. > :04:00.One of the problems is, he may have a plan but can
:04:01. > :04:03.And also, to be honest, one of the perennial problems
:04:04. > :04:05.of the mayoralty is the actually you have very
:04:06. > :04:08.little power and in housing, you're in the hands of the government
:04:09. > :04:13.policing side and transportation and on strategic planning issues,
:04:14. > :04:15.but a lot of this is not about strategic
:04:16. > :04:19.overview, it is about the real nitty-gritty of how to get more
:04:20. > :04:21.and more houses in each and every one of the London boroughs.
:04:22. > :04:24.It has been a pleasure, thanks very much indeed.
:04:25. > :04:33.And with that, Andrew, it's back to you.
:04:34. > :04:37.If you believe some of the polls - and we're not much inclined to these
:04:38. > :04:40.days - those arguing for Britain to leave the EU could be ahead
:04:41. > :04:42.of those who want us to remain a member.
:04:43. > :04:46.If true, it can't have much to do with the unity shown by those
:04:47. > :04:50.jostling to be picked as the official, designated leave
:04:51. > :04:56.campaign, as they've spent all week fighting like ferrets in a sack
:04:57. > :04:59.UKIP MP Douglas Carswell was speaking to Andrew Marr earlier
:05:00. > :05:03.about one of the newer leave groups, called Grassroots Out or GO
:05:04. > :05:07.for short, which is hoping to be chosen.
:05:08. > :05:12.I was out at the weekend and the weekend before
:05:13. > :05:15.We've got a great ground game in Vote Leave.
:05:16. > :05:16.We've delivered millions of leaflets.
:05:17. > :05:19.I'm not going to be disrespectful of any
:05:20. > :05:24.They're led by people who've done this before.
:05:25. > :05:27.And I think what's important is that we make sure that people
:05:28. > :05:37.realise that David Cameron's deal is pretty duff.
:05:38. > :05:39.Well, Peter Bone is one of the MPs behind GO.
:05:40. > :05:59.Why should you get the official designation? Were not united and
:06:00. > :06:11.still 37, 43%, but it looks good, there are 42 grassroot campaigns
:06:12. > :06:16.made up of different people, and I think who should get designation, it
:06:17. > :06:23.is an establishment view that you have to have a top-down organisation
:06:24. > :06:29.like BSE, imposed from the top, there was nobody going out on the
:06:30. > :06:37.February morning is knocking on doors, there are 42 campaigns so
:06:38. > :06:41.this is from the grassroots up. It is not another campaigning
:06:42. > :06:45.organisation bringing everyone together and they still have
:06:46. > :06:52.independence. With this umbrella stop you from knocking each other?
:06:53. > :06:57.Aaron Banks, he has put money into Grassroots Out? It is funded by a
:06:58. > :07:08.number of individuals. Conservative donors... Here's one of them and he
:07:09. > :07:14.said that people in vote leave where two of the nastiest individuals I
:07:15. > :07:27.ever had the misfortune to leave. Kate Hoey, voting to quit. She is
:07:28. > :07:33.also voting for Vote Leave. Let us bring everyone together, this has to
:07:34. > :07:37.stop, last week whenever we had 100 people from all of the different
:07:38. > :07:42.groups and parties working together, why cannot we get that at the top?
:07:43. > :07:49.One happy family working under the grassroots movement. You have that
:07:50. > :07:56.bright Grassroots Out tie on. This picture has more than just a tie on
:07:57. > :08:01.it. One of your colleagues, launching the campaign with the
:08:02. > :08:07.Union Jack jacket. People might remember the John Redwood leadership
:08:08. > :08:15.campaign would wonder if politicians want to be seen on the same platform
:08:16. > :08:20.as that? People are going out across the country, campaigning to come out
:08:21. > :08:27.of the EU. Not looking like that, looking like me! No, they don't want
:08:28. > :08:38.to look like me! Is this just journalist from? The poll has them
:08:39. > :08:41.ahead? The Electoral Commission in the next few weeks will have to
:08:42. > :08:48.designate one of these groups as the main out and in group and both sides
:08:49. > :08:54.are fighting like bad. The danger for the leaving camp is the group to
:08:55. > :08:59.win this referendum will be the group that wins the argument that it
:09:00. > :09:03.represents the safest option and the losing group will be portrayed as
:09:04. > :09:07.the riskiest. People like Douglas Carswell or deeply fearful of Nigel
:09:08. > :09:13.Farage as one of the main figures on the outside because in a good day he
:09:14. > :09:21.can get 30% of the electorate and that is why Grassroots Out is
:09:22. > :09:27.established, because the Aaron Banks group, he is funding the other group
:09:28. > :09:34.which has cross-party support and that will be important. Vote Leave,
:09:35. > :09:43.the more stable, steady safer option is now struggling on the cross-party
:09:44. > :09:52.option, particularly in that box. How do you know all that) it is also
:09:53. > :09:54.quite true. Why are you talking about the personalities and the
:09:55. > :10:01.policies and that is a reflection of, when we talk about policies
:10:02. > :10:07.people would enter a coma. Neither side has key messages, I don't think
:10:08. > :10:09.you could stop 100 people in the street and one could tell you
:10:10. > :10:15.anything that was in this and that is why we talk about personalities.
:10:16. > :10:21.We are doing our best! We have always exaggerated the importance of
:10:22. > :10:25.campaigns on election results and referendums and last I was told that
:10:26. > :10:32.because of Labour's assiduous work at ground level they would end up
:10:33. > :10:35.counteracting disadvantages like leadership and economic credibility
:10:36. > :10:40.so I have never believed that the internal rivalry would really hold
:10:41. > :10:43.them back and recent opinion polls have stood up to that. What really
:10:44. > :10:51.goes on their favour is the nature of the deal that David Cameron
:10:52. > :10:55.extracted last week because it is less impressive than was instigated
:10:56. > :11:00.in the Bloomberg speech and it will have to fight the referendum on the
:11:01. > :11:04.existing terms of membership and I think he can win that but he would
:11:05. > :11:08.have gone into the last four months of this campaign with something
:11:09. > :11:12.drastically different and not cosmetically different. That is
:11:13. > :11:18.right, the fundamental issues will be debated and we are all innovative
:11:19. > :11:23.this Westminster bubble thinking that Joe Bloggs says this and it
:11:24. > :11:28.matters but on the street, nobody can name any of these campaigns and
:11:29. > :11:33.the simple question is, in or out were undecided? That is what we re
:11:34. > :11:36.finding and a lot of people are undecided who say we have not heard
:11:37. > :11:42.the arguments and we clearly have to get our message out on leaving and
:11:43. > :11:47.that does concern emigration and controlling borders but also the
:11:48. > :11:52.fact that we pay 55th -- ?55 million every week to Europe and get
:11:53. > :12:00.nothing. You get half of that act. We don't. You do! We get a bit of
:12:01. > :12:07.that back. They decide how we spend it. You get it back as a rebate and
:12:08. > :12:16.you also get it back in funding from the EU? The facts will matter. How
:12:17. > :12:20.many billions of pounds each week goes to the EU that we have no
:12:21. > :12:28.control over? You said the gross figures... The net figure is about
:12:29. > :12:33.half of that. It is not. If you go into the detail I can assure you it
:12:34. > :12:40.is. Can you win this without any front person? Behead Minister of is
:12:41. > :12:44.heading up the game campaign. If he does not get what he wants he will
:12:45. > :12:53.be heading up the Grassroots Out campaign. -- I will be. You are not
:12:54. > :12:58.holding your breath. Who should be heading up your side? I don't want
:12:59. > :13:03.any figurehead. Who would debate with the Prime Minister? It depends
:13:04. > :13:10.on the issues. In or out, how about that? If you are talking about
:13:11. > :13:16.dozens, a businessman, trade unions, somebody from Labour Leave. Belgian
:13:17. > :13:20.rambler that a government... I will have to stop you expect thanks to
:13:21. > :13:23.all of the guests. Join us next Sunday at 11,
:13:24. > :13:26.when we'll be taking stock made by the Conservatives at last
:13:27. > :13:30.year's election and asking Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:31. > :13:34.it's the Sunday Politics.