:00:42. > :00:49.The Prime Minister rams home his claim that leaving
:00:50. > :00:51.the European Union puts jobs, security, even the world
:00:52. > :00:53.Many Tories don't like his arguments.
:00:54. > :00:58.David Cameron's mentor and former Tory leader Michael Howard will be
:00:59. > :01:01.here to tell us why he thinks it's safe for Britain to leave -
:01:02. > :01:04.and Labour big beast Alan Johnson will make the case for staying in.
:01:05. > :01:07.Labour's not exactly united when it comes to renewing Trident -
:01:08. > :01:09.that didn't stop Jeremy Corbyn telling protestors yesterday
:01:10. > :01:17.that he believes in a nuclear-free Britain.
:01:18. > :01:19.Following the death of young Conservative activist
:01:20. > :01:21.Elliott Johnson amid allegations of bullying within the party,
:01:22. > :01:24.we've spoken to one of those close to the centre of the story
:01:25. > :01:35.Who are these people that I bullied or threatens? Nobody has come
:01:36. > :01:40.forward and there is plenty of evidence that I did not do any of
:01:41. > :01:43.those things. In the capital, split over Europe at the front runners
:01:44. > :01:45.take sides on the referendum. We assessed the impact on the male
:01:46. > :01:53.race. -- may roll race. All that to come -
:01:54. > :01:55.and with me for the duration, three journalists who show as much
:01:56. > :01:58.consensus on the big political For balance I should say they fall
:01:59. > :02:07.out as often as Jeremy Corbyn's It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakshott
:02:08. > :02:11.and Janan Ganesh. And speaking of cabinet unity,
:02:12. > :02:13.there's a distinct lack of it
:02:14. > :02:15.in this morning's papers of campaigning since David Cameron
:02:16. > :02:18.announced that a referendum on Britain's EU membership will take
:02:19. > :02:21.place on the 23rd of June. The Fleet Street hounds have caught
:02:22. > :02:24.the scent of a good old-fashioned Conservative feud over Europe,
:02:25. > :02:26.and with the party and the cabinet divided over whether Britain should
:02:27. > :02:29.stay or go, they're not The Sunday Times says
:02:30. > :02:32.David Cameron has been warned that he'll face a leadership
:02:33. > :02:35.challenge if he doesn't call a halt to so-called 'blue on blue' attacks
:02:36. > :02:37.on fellow Conservatives. The Sunday Telegraph reports
:02:38. > :02:39.on the 'battle of wills' between the two sides
:02:40. > :02:44.with pieces by David Cameron and Iain Duncan Smith,
:02:45. > :02:47.who says 'they can sack me The Observer leads with
:02:48. > :02:53.Number 10's main message, which is to say that a British
:02:54. > :02:56.exit would spark decades And the Mail on Sunday says
:02:57. > :03:07.the Tory feud turned really nasty after Foreign Secretary Philip
:03:08. > :03:09.Hammond had what it called So it seems fair to say that
:03:10. > :03:13.relations between David Cameron and eurosceptics in his party
:03:14. > :03:15.aren't exactly cordial. The welfare secretary
:03:16. > :03:17.Iain Duncan Smith, he's one of the cabinet ministers arguing
:03:18. > :03:30.to leave, was asked about it You don't think the Prime Minister
:03:31. > :03:34.is much of a patriot, do you? This is not about personalities. They in
:03:35. > :03:41.campaign's whole strategy seems to be about, it is terrible, it is
:03:42. > :03:44.about saying that we are too small, too inconsequential and we cannot do
:03:45. > :03:47.what we want. I don't know why anybody would want to run a country
:03:48. > :03:53.like this. This country is the greatest honour. I think probably
:03:54. > :03:56.the first time a cabinet minister has been asked if the Prime Minister
:03:57. > :04:02.is a patriot and he does not reply yes. Is Mr Cameron getting the tone
:04:03. > :04:05.and the content of this right? I think he made a big mistake earlier
:04:06. > :04:10.this week when he lashed out at Boris Johnson in the Commons. I
:04:11. > :04:14.think there was a degree of over interpreting those comments, and I
:04:15. > :04:19.understand that there was a fuss about whether or not he had slighted
:04:20. > :04:23.Boris Johnson's personal life with a reference to knowing couples that
:04:24. > :04:28.had divorced. Mr Cameron thought he had Boris in the bag. He was
:04:29. > :04:32.certainly bruised by that. The comment on marriage went over
:04:33. > :04:40.Doris's aired, so there was a bit of over interpreting by people on all
:04:41. > :04:46.sides. -- over progress's aired. But if Cameron is being called to stop
:04:47. > :04:50.these attacks, he is the one who started them. Europe is just another
:04:51. > :04:55.word for division in the Tory Party but it almost seems like the manner
:04:56. > :04:59.and the tone of what the prime ministers saying, he is almost going
:05:00. > :05:04.out of his way to upset those opposed to him. I disagree. I think
:05:05. > :05:09.the grievances in the papers today are spurious. It has not been a blue
:05:10. > :05:12.on blue campaign so far, not a huge amount of animosity and poison so
:05:13. > :05:16.far although it is early days. Do they expect him not to play the
:05:17. > :05:20.economic risk card? Do they expect him to go through the next four mums
:05:21. > :05:24.using the single most devastating line of attack he has against the
:05:25. > :05:27.other side, which is the unknown economic has heard of taking a punt
:05:28. > :05:34.on Brexit? But that argument would be true even if he had brought back
:05:35. > :05:38.the store from Brussels or brought back nothing from Brussels. The
:05:39. > :05:44.economic argument is that this could be a profound shock to the world
:05:45. > :05:48.economy. That is either true or not true, regardless of the settlement.
:05:49. > :05:53.But that is not the given reason for their frustration with him. At the
:05:54. > :05:56.moment they are focusing on the tone and negativity. And you don't feel
:05:57. > :06:01.like they have the right to be aggrieved? No. It would be bizarre
:06:02. > :06:04.Prime Minister to lead a campaign in favour of staying in without
:06:05. > :06:09.deploying his most effective weapon. And what Mr Osborne is doing with
:06:10. > :06:12.this argument is have one very simple, crude argument in the
:06:13. > :06:16.general election, that Labour was not credible, and in this campaign
:06:17. > :06:21.that it is a leap in the dark. He needs to be careful. The idea that
:06:22. > :06:24.the world economy is going to tank because Britain leaves the European
:06:25. > :06:30.Union, that Britain leaving the union is up there with the Chinese
:06:31. > :06:34.fall in growth, it is absurd. What did George Osborne do? Equalled the
:06:35. > :06:37.G20 finance ministers to write that into their conclusions. Yes, it will
:06:38. > :06:41.be a challenge for the British economy if we leave the European
:06:42. > :06:45.Union, but the idea that it is up there as a global risk that will
:06:46. > :06:48.lead to some great world economic depression, I think he needs to be
:06:49. > :06:52.careful. He has to ensure that what he does has credibility and I am not
:06:53. > :06:55.sure that passes the test. What annoys a lot of the Tories is that
:06:56. > :06:59.they are using arguments about staying in which I've always been
:07:00. > :07:05.true, regardless of whether or not the settlement makes any difference.
:07:06. > :07:10.To say that if we came out, there would be a profound economic shock,
:07:11. > :07:14.that is true regardless of the settlement. I think that is what
:07:15. > :07:18.annoys the Eurosceptics. They are using arguments that were true six
:07:19. > :07:21.months ago. And many of the arguments are very thin. David
:07:22. > :07:25.Cameron has written for the Telegraph today saying that he can
:07:26. > :07:30.describe exactly what people will be voting for if they vote to stay in.
:07:31. > :07:34.It is the status quo, it is not very difficult to describe that. It is
:07:35. > :07:38.very frustrating for Eurosceptics that there is this constant spurious
:07:39. > :07:42.claim by the In campaign that they cannot describe what Out looks like.
:07:43. > :07:48.They describe what it looks like everyday. The problem is that it is
:07:49. > :07:52.under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that exit people cannot
:07:53. > :07:55.guarantee the deal. They can say it might be this or that but they
:07:56. > :07:58.cannot guarantee it because we are out of the European Council the
:07:59. > :08:01.moment we press the button. You wonder whether either side can
:08:02. > :08:09.guarantee what the country will be like whether we stay in or come out.
:08:10. > :08:17.We have a pretty good idea of who will be fighting on which site.
:08:18. > :08:20.Both the Leave and the Remain camps have their own big figures,
:08:21. > :08:22.and they wasted little time in putting aside old loyalties
:08:23. > :08:26.Let's have a look at some of the big moments of the week.
:08:27. > :08:29.I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings
:08:30. > :08:32.but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order
:08:33. > :08:39.This open border does not allow us to check and control people who may
:08:40. > :08:42.come and we have seen what has happened in Paris where they spent
:08:43. > :08:47.ages planning and plotting so who is to say it is not
:08:48. > :08:50.beyond the wit of man that those might already be thinking about it?
:08:51. > :08:53.Today almost 200 of Britain's biggest firms including 36
:08:54. > :08:56.on the FTSE 100 index published a letter warning that so-called
:08:57. > :09:07.Brexit would put the economy at risk.
:09:08. > :09:12.We have a great opportunity now to strike new deals for Britain
:09:13. > :09:14.to be the hub of new trading arrangements around the world
:09:15. > :09:18.and to have a fantastic new future so that is what I am going for.
:09:19. > :09:21.In my judgment as Chancellor leaving the EU would represent a profound
:09:22. > :09:24.economic shock for our country, for all of us and I am going to do
:09:25. > :09:27.everything I can to prevent that happening.
:09:28. > :09:30.The European Court of Justice interprets the European Union
:09:31. > :09:32.treaties and until this agreement is embodied in treaty change then
:09:33. > :09:38.the European Court of Justice is not bound by this agreement.
:09:39. > :09:41.You saw there a few of the Conservative allies
:09:42. > :09:45.David Cameron has failed to persuade of the case for remaining in the EU,
:09:46. > :09:48.and now I'm joined by another one - the former party leader,
:09:49. > :09:52.Tory peer and leave campaign Michael Howard.
:09:53. > :09:57.Welcome to the programme. Let's start on this idea of a second
:09:58. > :10:01.referendum. You have indicated that a vote to leave could jolt the rest
:10:02. > :10:05.of the EU into giving us a better and bigger and more compounds of
:10:06. > :10:08.deal. That could trigger a second referendum. Mr Cameron says that is
:10:09. > :10:16.fiction and Boris Johnson now says the same. Are you sticking to that?
:10:17. > :10:21.Yes. I cannot guarantee that would happen but it is a possibility.
:10:22. > :10:26.Everybody who wants us to vote Remain is going to say it is for the
:10:27. > :10:32.birds, and I understand that. There want us to vote to remain. Mr
:10:33. > :10:35.Johnson is saying that, too. And I don't agree with him. We have
:10:36. > :10:40.reached the same conclusion by different routes. The European Union
:10:41. > :10:43.has form on this. They have done it before in relation to Ireland and
:10:44. > :10:49.Denmark. The very things that make it certain that we would thrive as
:10:50. > :10:53.an independent country, the fact that we are the fifth biggest
:10:54. > :10:57.economy in the world, the strongest military power in Europe, the fact
:10:58. > :11:00.that we are the second-biggest contributor to the European Union
:11:01. > :11:04.budget, those things would mean that we would be sorely missed if we left
:11:05. > :11:08.and that is why I think the countries in Europe, the European
:11:09. > :11:13.leaders would say that if we voted to leave, let's have some more talks
:11:14. > :11:18.and let's think again. Would they? Brexit, I think, if it happens would
:11:19. > :11:22.happen at a time of what is clearly crisis for the EU, perhaps the worst
:11:23. > :11:25.crisis in its history. If it responded by giving us everything
:11:26. > :11:29.that the Eurosceptics wanted, there could be a rush to the door by other
:11:30. > :11:35.countries. Why would the EU risk that? The very fact they are in a
:11:36. > :11:40.crisis means they need us all the more. I cannot guarantee that they
:11:41. > :11:44.would. It is an unknown. There is a chance of that but if they don't
:11:45. > :11:50.come back, if all we are left with is the current under formed European
:11:51. > :11:55.Union, I think we are better out than in. OK. Turning to the
:11:56. > :12:03.economics. Last week we saw some of Britain's biggest companies,
:12:04. > :12:08.household names, warning against the dangers of leaving the EU for jobs
:12:09. > :12:13.and investment. Why should the British people not listen to them?
:12:14. > :12:19.First of all, they were a minority even of the bosses of the FTSE 100
:12:20. > :12:24.companies. Moore did not sign them signed. Secondly, don't take it from
:12:25. > :12:28.me, take it from someone with real authority, someone like Mervyn King,
:12:29. > :12:31.the former governor of the Bank of England, who pointed out yesterday
:12:32. > :12:34.that we ought to take what these people say with a pinch of salt.
:12:35. > :12:39.Many of them were strong adherence of us joining the euro and predicted
:12:40. > :12:45.economic disaster for us if we did not. But not all of them. How many
:12:46. > :12:51.FTSE 100 chief executives are on your side? I don't know. But many
:12:52. > :12:55.business people are, particularly small business people. And
:12:56. > :12:59.particularly business people who do most of their business with
:13:00. > :13:04.countries outside of the EU and who are very hampered in doing so by the
:13:05. > :13:06.rules to which we are in thrall. The kind of people who signed this
:13:07. > :13:09.letter saying we should stay in, they are also the same kind of
:13:10. > :13:14.people who signed the same kind of letters backing the Tories come
:13:15. > :13:21.election time. If you want us to listen to them, when it suits you,
:13:22. > :13:26.but not when they don't agree with you? They can be right about one
:13:27. > :13:30.thing without being right about another. He wants to pick them up
:13:31. > :13:34.when it suits you and disparage them when it doesn't. Can I make a point
:13:35. > :13:37.about this? I think we are in danger of looking at these issues through
:13:38. > :13:45.the wrong end of the telescope. If we leave, there are some things that
:13:46. > :13:49.I can absolutely guarantee. Number one, we will have our democracy
:13:50. > :13:52.restored, our courts and our Parliament will no longer be
:13:53. > :13:56.subservient to the European Union. Number two, as part of that, we will
:13:57. > :14:02.recover control of our borders and we will have control over who comes
:14:03. > :14:05.in and who doesn't. Number three, we will no longer have to contribute
:14:06. > :14:09.billions of pounds a year to the EU's budget. Those are certainties,
:14:10. > :14:16.indisputable. The onus is on those who wish us to remain 2.2 similar
:14:17. > :14:22.indisputable arguments which outweigh those and so far I have not
:14:23. > :14:29.seen them. But does it not worry you that all of our allies in the G20
:14:30. > :14:33.want us to stay in. Only President Putin among world leaders once asked
:14:34. > :14:38.to leave? Does that not cause you concerned? The British people are
:14:39. > :14:46.the best people to decide what is in our interest. You could also site
:14:47. > :14:51.the Attorney General of the United States, who said that of the
:14:52. > :14:54.European Union was undermining the intelligence sharing that is so
:14:55. > :14:59.crucial in our fight against terrorism and crime. So now, it is
:15:00. > :15:05.the British people who are the best people to decide what is in our
:15:06. > :15:08.interest. The Prime Minister says there are 3 million jobs that depend
:15:09. > :15:14.in some way on our trade in the European Union. He says we would not
:15:15. > :15:18.go training -- we would go on trading with the EU, if we left, but
:15:19. > :15:22.would the trade be at the same level? How many of these jobs would
:15:23. > :15:27.be truly safe? Can you answer that question? They want to continue
:15:28. > :15:32.trading with us and we are the biggest export market for the rest
:15:33. > :15:35.of the European Union. And we run a great deficit on trade with them so
:15:36. > :15:42.it is very much in their interest to continue to trade with us. We could
:15:43. > :15:47.do some jobs, couldn't wake Umax -- we could lose. I do not think the
:15:48. > :15:53.Germans would not continue selling as BMWs, or the French wine. If they
:15:54. > :15:56.want to continue to have access to our market, we need to make sure we
:15:57. > :16:02.have access to theirs. It is in our mutual interest. You say that all 3
:16:03. > :16:08.million jobs are guaranteed? I cannot offer you any guarantees and
:16:09. > :16:11.neither can the banister. The great arts profit of integration as he did
:16:12. > :16:17.very well, when he said that if the British do not want to sign up to
:16:18. > :16:20.further integration in the European Union, we can have a very friendly
:16:21. > :16:22.relationship with them, we can sign up to a free-trade agreement with
:16:23. > :16:27.them and that would be the way forward.
:16:28. > :16:31.Let me show you what the current Home Secretary who is the longest
:16:32. > :16:48.serving Home Secretary says: I have great respect for her, I
:16:49. > :16:56.don't quite know why she says that. I believe that we can continue to
:16:57. > :17:00.have a very good and constructive working relationship with the member
:17:01. > :17:05.states of the EU on security matters if we leave. The reason I say that
:17:06. > :17:10.is simply this, we contribute a great deal to that relationship, our
:17:11. > :17:14.intelligence services are the best in Europe. They want the help we can
:17:15. > :17:18.give them and so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should
:17:19. > :17:23.not continue to have a close relationship with them on these
:17:24. > :17:27.matters on an intergovernmental basis. The declaration of the
:17:28. > :17:33.European Council, which I know you have read as carefully as I have,
:17:34. > :17:37.says in terms, national security is our responsibility of the nation
:17:38. > :17:42.states. One thing we would not have access to is the European arrest
:17:43. > :17:44.warrant. We could come to an agreement on that. Let's say what
:17:45. > :17:58.you said on that: it wouldn't be if we left. It could,
:17:59. > :18:02.because we could easily reach an agreement with the Europeans that
:18:03. > :18:06.the essentials of the European arrest warrant continued in force.
:18:07. > :18:10.Not all my friends on the leading side with that that I think it would
:18:11. > :18:18.be possible to reach such an agreement. No other non-EU member
:18:19. > :18:23.has use of the arrest warrant. No other nonmember is in the same
:18:24. > :18:29.relationship as we are. We don't know. It was used to bring back one
:18:30. > :18:34.of the failed London bombers from Italy and it came back quickly and
:18:35. > :18:39.the arrest warrant. He is now in jail, how would we do that? That is
:18:40. > :18:43.why I was in favour of it at the time and I think because we offer so
:18:44. > :18:50.much to our European neighbours in terms of the capacity which we bring
:18:51. > :18:54.to these issues they would be keen to continue in that sort of
:18:55. > :19:07.arrangement with us if we left the European Union. Let me show you what
:19:08. > :19:19.Rob Wainwright, the head of Europe all -- Europol said. The head of
:19:20. > :19:26.Europol, British, the longest serving Home Secretary, both think
:19:27. > :19:30.that our security would be more at risk. And the Attorney General of
:19:31. > :19:36.the United States accuses the European Union of undermining the
:19:37. > :19:41.fight against terrorism and I think in all of these issues we need to
:19:42. > :19:46.have some self confidence and self belief. We are a big country, an
:19:47. > :19:50.important country and we have a huge amount to offer in terms of
:19:51. > :19:54.cooperation with our neighbours. It is in the interest to continue to
:19:55. > :19:57.cooperate with us and I have no doubt we could reach perfectly
:19:58. > :20:04.satisfactory arrangements with them if we voted to leave. Finally, Mr
:20:05. > :20:07.Cameron was once your special adviser, you were his mentor and you
:20:08. > :20:12.told his mother one day that he would be Prime Minister, what did he
:20:13. > :20:16.say when you told him you are joining the league side? We had a
:20:17. > :20:23.difficult conversation, I find it difficult to be on the opposite side
:20:24. > :20:26.of the argument to David Cameron. He was very disappointed I had come to
:20:27. > :20:29.this conclusion and I understand and respect that. Michael Howard, thank
:20:30. > :20:33.you for being with us. So that's the case for leaving put
:20:34. > :20:36.by an elder statesman Let's turn now to an elder statesman
:20:37. > :20:39.of the Labour Party - although he's a fresh-faced one -
:20:40. > :20:43.it's Alan Johnson and he is leading the Labour In for Britain Group,
:20:44. > :20:55.and he's in Hull. Your side of the argument stresses
:20:56. > :21:01.the risks and uncertainties of leaving the EU, do you accept there
:21:02. > :21:06.are risks and uncertainties with staying? No. Not in the sense that
:21:07. > :21:11.Michael Howard was suggesting. I thought what he said was wrong, he
:21:12. > :21:13.said he could guarantee we would not be contributing to the European
:21:14. > :21:18.Union and could guarantee there would not be free movement but he
:21:19. > :21:22.cannot. If we take the Norway option which many of those on the leading
:21:23. > :21:27.site promote then we would indeed be paying them, Norway is the 10th
:21:28. > :21:33.biggest contributor. They have free movement. Why would we have to
:21:34. > :21:38.follow what Norway does? They are a small economy and we are the second
:21:39. > :21:44.largest in Europe? I am just saying that there are other options, the
:21:45. > :21:48.Swiss option once again. Michael cannot guarantee it. We are the
:21:49. > :21:53.fifth biggest economy, we were the fourth when we were in government,
:21:54. > :21:58.but people say that only leaving side but they do not equate it at
:21:59. > :22:04.all with 41 years of membership of the EU. Part of that economic
:22:05. > :22:10.strength, I am in Hull where there is the biggest investment any where
:22:11. > :22:17.in the world by Siemens, billions of pounds and 1000 jobs. They are
:22:18. > :22:29.building wind turbines for offshore Britain. It was fierce competition,
:22:30. > :22:34.if you take... They are building stuff Britain, why would they not do
:22:35. > :22:37.it here? If you take Britain outside the EU you have all kinds of
:22:38. > :22:44.uncertainties and all kinds of possible barriers. The Society of
:22:45. > :22:48.motor manufacturers point out that whilst sales to China and Russia
:22:49. > :22:57.have declined their sales to Europe are up by 10% because we don't pay
:22:58. > :23:01.any tariffs to export into Europe. The other point I wanted to mention
:23:02. > :23:06.was that Michael was part of a government which opted out of
:23:07. > :23:10.something called the social chapter, basic protection for workers. In
:23:11. > :23:15.this huge market, the biggest commercial market, bigger than China
:23:16. > :23:18.and America, there are protections for workers. Michael opted out of
:23:19. > :23:24.those and I believe that he and many others think that is good to not
:23:25. > :23:28.have those protections. We opted back in. For us those protections
:23:29. > :23:33.for workers, to avoid this country becoming a race to the bottom,
:23:34. > :23:39.anything goes kind of free-market experiment, are very important. Hold
:23:40. > :23:42.on, why couldn't the British government, why wouldn't a British
:23:43. > :23:46.government outside the EU replicate these rights if it was so minded,
:23:47. > :23:52.what would stop us from doing that if the government got the democratic
:23:53. > :23:55.will of the British people? The first point is as I have explained
:23:56. > :24:00.that a British government chose not to do that. That was Alex Goode
:24:01. > :24:07.British government. The British government that we were part of
:24:08. > :24:09.opted into those arrangements. There is nothing to suggest in the history
:24:10. > :24:15.of Conservative government that if we left the EU that they would opt
:24:16. > :24:18.into all this. That would be a matter for the British people to
:24:19. > :24:23.choose if they wanted that government. If we let the EU at the
:24:24. > :24:27.next election Labour would promise four weeks paid leave, rights for
:24:28. > :24:30.workers, paid maternity at the next election and if that is what the
:24:31. > :24:36.British people want they will vote for you? The people who want us to
:24:37. > :24:41.leave, the argument I am making, is that the people who want us to leave
:24:42. > :24:46.consider all of that to be red tape. They consider all of that to be
:24:47. > :24:50.bureaucracy. We believe in that kind of market that there has to be
:24:51. > :24:53.protection for consumers, for the environment and for workers. That is
:24:54. > :25:01.an important part of what Europe gives us. Non-EU countries, Norway,
:25:02. > :25:05.Australia, Canada, Iceland, they all score highly even on the trade
:25:06. > :25:08.unionist global workers rights index. Why wouldn't an independent
:25:09. > :25:12.UK, if voters index. Why wouldn't an independent
:25:13. > :25:19.so and I don't see any mainstream politician saying they would want to
:25:20. > :25:24.take away four weeks paid leave, why does it need Europe to do it? That's
:25:25. > :25:32.a very good question. In this country alone, it is a political
:25:33. > :25:37.consensus in countries like Norway and Sweden that there should be
:25:38. > :25:42.decent basic rights for workers. In this country it is an election
:25:43. > :25:52.issue. Why shouldn't it be an election issue? I believe if you are
:25:53. > :25:56.trading into this huge market and have got all those opportunities to
:25:57. > :26:01.trade then one aspect of that must be that you don't undercut each
:26:02. > :26:04.other on the basis of terms and conditions. I believe it's an
:26:05. > :26:08.essential part of being in Europe and that is why it is an important
:26:09. > :26:13.part of our campaign to maintain those rights and protections. Moving
:26:14. > :26:17.on to immigration, people are concerned about the scale of it, is
:26:18. > :26:21.there anything in the settlement of David Cameron that'll make a
:26:22. > :26:27.material difference to immigration from the EU? Yes there is, it is
:26:28. > :26:33.very underrated nice to. Two points which were negotiated by Theresa May
:26:34. > :26:38.that were not in the package that we saw in the Donald Tusk exchange were
:26:39. > :26:42.very important. First of all tackling sham marriages and secondly
:26:43. > :26:45.to say that people coming into this country who we suspect might be
:26:46. > :26:52.engaged in the future in activities we would find criminal or perhaps
:26:53. > :26:57.terrorism, that we can stop them coming in. That is important, at the
:26:58. > :27:02.moment it is based on what we know, not on what we predict. Sham
:27:03. > :27:08.marriages with their largely to the subcontinent and is very little to
:27:09. > :27:11.do with Europe. You asked me for two things... I don't know what
:27:12. > :27:17.difference it would make to the numbers, it is about 100 is to 5000
:27:18. > :27:26.per year net migration coming to this country and it will continue at
:27:27. > :27:30.that level if we stay in want it? There is nothing we can do about net
:27:31. > :27:38.EU migration at that level. Absolutely. I have said that before.
:27:39. > :27:41.It was David Cameron's package. In fairness of people making
:27:42. > :27:44.contributions before taking working-class tax credits but I
:27:45. > :27:51.never thought this was a draw for people to come -- taking working tax
:27:52. > :27:58.credits. We can do something to stop the expectation and we don't need
:27:59. > :28:01.the rest of Europe to do that, I think David Cameron was right, you
:28:02. > :28:06.are right about free movement within the European Union but people are
:28:07. > :28:09.worried about movement coming from outside the European Union and
:28:10. > :28:12.outside the European Union ourselves I think we would be weaker. Not just
:28:13. > :28:19.because we'll would the protection of the Dublin accord -- not just
:28:20. > :28:22.because we will lose. The most honourable point is Calais to Dover
:28:23. > :28:29.and that operation of the Border Force moving to Calais, the mayor
:28:30. > :28:36.comes over and says teacher border backed every couple of months. That
:28:37. > :28:41.is between France and Britain, it is nothing to do with the European
:28:42. > :28:46.Union. This is the point and I think this is what Michael missed, if we
:28:47. > :28:50.wrench ourselves away from the European Union after 41 years of
:28:51. > :28:58.membership, does anyone think there will be huge goodwill out there for
:28:59. > :29:02.Britain? Here is another point about French politics, the French
:29:03. > :29:06.presidential right wing campaigns who might well win next year are
:29:07. > :29:12.saying they will get rid of it even if we stay in the European Union.
:29:13. > :29:20.There you are. So what is the point? Nothing to do with the EU. I don't
:29:21. > :29:25.think anybody doubt that if we left the EU it would seriously bring into
:29:26. > :29:32.jeopardy that arrangement and that is the most vulnerable entry point.
:29:33. > :29:38.Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not look upon immigration as a problem.
:29:39. > :29:45.Do you agree in the context of this debate about Europe? Only in the
:29:46. > :29:50.sense that it is not the driving force, people don't come here, they
:29:51. > :29:57.come here to work by and large, they don't come here to claim benefits.
:29:58. > :29:59.In that respect I do. I think as Jeremy accepts the exploitation
:30:00. > :30:07.which comes with it needs to be addressed. So to be clear the scale
:30:08. > :30:12.of immigration if we stay in the EU does not change. It might do. I will
:30:13. > :30:19.tell you why it might do, I was Home Secretary before Theresa May, the
:30:20. > :30:23.net migration figure was around 165,000, very low. Because we had
:30:24. > :30:27.just gone through the collapse of Liman brothers and the economy was
:30:28. > :30:33.doing badly. If we come out of the EU and are in such a state as far as
:30:34. > :30:38.our economy is concerned it might stop people wanting to come here.
:30:39. > :30:42.OK, you said we have the best lyrics, meaning your side, but we
:30:43. > :30:49.are still struggling to put them to music, why can't you find the right
:30:50. > :30:55.chin? What I meant by that is they have simplistic let's regain the
:30:56. > :31:01.borders and regain our sovereign three and it's quite a complex
:31:02. > :31:05.argument to say actually we have got the best of both worlds. Yes we have
:31:06. > :31:12.some sovereign tree into Europe but that gives us influence over other
:31:13. > :31:18.member states and gives us a louder voice and a more powerful voice in
:31:19. > :31:26.the rest of the world. We will give you that, you love your music so we
:31:27. > :31:27.will give you time to find a tune until we meet again. Alan Johnson,
:31:28. > :31:31.thank you. Let's turn now to the bullying
:31:32. > :31:33.allegations surrounding the death of young Conservative
:31:34. > :31:35.activist Elliott Johnson. An inquest is due to open this week
:31:36. > :31:38.after the 21-year-old was found dead It's thought he took his own life
:31:39. > :31:42.weeks after raising allegations about the way he was being treated
:31:43. > :31:45.in the Conservatives' youth wing. He left behind a suicide note naming
:31:46. > :31:52.two other activists. Today, one of them, a man
:31:53. > :31:58.called Andre Walker, speaks out about his relationship
:31:59. > :32:00.with Elliott Johnson and the bullying allegations
:32:01. > :32:01.for the first time. For nearly six months
:32:02. > :32:11.a grieving family, friends, colleagues and the media have been
:32:12. > :32:14.trying to fathom why a young conservative activist,
:32:15. > :32:15.21-year-old Elliot Johnson, lay down on a railway line
:32:16. > :32:17.and took his own life. The student vote
:32:18. > :32:20.is really important. Just months before, he had been
:32:21. > :32:23.an enthusiastic volunteer for Road We are going to be deciding
:32:24. > :32:26.the general election. This was the brainchild of a former
:32:27. > :32:30.Conservative candidate, Mark Clarke, that would bus young
:32:31. > :32:33.conservatives around the country to campaign on doorsteps
:32:34. > :32:37.during the 2015 general election. Are you going to help change
:32:38. > :32:57.the future of our country? Since the death of Elliott,
:32:58. > :32:59.lurid headlines have reported complaints
:33:00. > :33:00.being made against Mr Clarke of bullying, sexual impropriety
:33:01. > :33:03.and blackmail in relation All of which Mr Clarke
:33:04. > :33:06.vigorously denies. Accusations of a Conservative
:33:07. > :33:09.cover-up have led to the resignation of former party co-chairman
:33:10. > :33:10.Grant Shapps, pressure on the current chairman
:33:11. > :33:13.Lord Feldman, Mr Clarke banned from the party for life,
:33:14. > :33:16.and an internal party investigation underway already widely criticised
:33:17. > :33:20.by the Johnson family. Elliott left a note to be read
:33:21. > :33:23.after his death directly accusing Mr Clarke of bullying him
:33:24. > :33:25.and another person, The note was not all that Elliott
:33:26. > :33:35.left, there was also a secret recording of a night at a pub
:33:36. > :33:38.with all three of them in which Andre Walker appears
:33:39. > :33:41.aggressive and threatening over an official complaint Elliott
:33:42. > :34:03.was going to make about Mr Clarke. In the six months which have
:34:04. > :34:08.followed, Andre Walker has been portrayed in the media
:34:09. > :34:10.as Mr Clarke's henchmen, ready to strongarm those
:34:11. > :34:21.who stood in his way. Now in his first interview Mr Walker
:34:22. > :34:24.gives his side of events nature of his friendship
:34:25. > :34:27.with Elliot Johnson. The Andre Walker that the public has
:34:28. > :34:30.seen so far in relation to this story, is that an Andre
:34:31. > :34:32.Walker you recognise? If I take you back to the day
:34:33. > :34:36.that the covert recording took place, Elliott asked me to come
:34:37. > :34:39.with him to meet with Mark Clarke which was a meeting that he wanted
:34:40. > :34:43.to discuss the problems they had. I met Elliott beforehand and we went
:34:44. > :34:46.to the pub together and met Mark. What you hear is me getting
:34:47. > :34:48.frustrated partway through What you don't hear,
:34:49. > :34:52.what wasn't released to most of the media was at the end Elliott
:34:53. > :34:55.inviting me back to his place because I had missed the last train
:34:56. > :35:01.and us leaving the pub together. If you look at that secret
:35:02. > :35:03.recording, it sounds like you are some kind of hatchet
:35:04. > :35:08.man for Mark Clarke. I think everyone who is fat
:35:09. > :35:15.and from the North of England and involved in politics gets
:35:16. > :35:17.accused of being a bruiser and it is something I never took
:35:18. > :35:20.particularly seriously, I don't recognise the criticism
:35:21. > :35:25.and I think the media has called almost everyone I have ever met
:35:26. > :35:28.in politics and who are these people that I bullied
:35:29. > :35:30.or threatened or harangued? Nobody has come forward,
:35:31. > :35:32.in fact there is plenty of evidence that I didn't do any
:35:33. > :35:34.of those things. What was the nature
:35:35. > :35:36.of the relationship So, Mark Clarke introduced me
:35:37. > :35:40.to Elliott because we both had We hit it off straightaway
:35:41. > :35:43.and the relationship started It lasted until the day he died,
:35:44. > :35:51.as far as I was concerned. The reason I have been coy
:35:52. > :35:54.about that is I know that saying I'm very sorry about that
:35:55. > :35:59.and it is not my intention to go out We have got to discuss this issue,
:36:00. > :36:04.we have to discuss the issue of homophobia and why people,
:36:05. > :36:07.even as close to him as me were not told about the mental
:36:08. > :36:09.health problems. This is a reference
:36:10. > :36:11.to a British Transport Police report prepared ahead of this weeks
:36:12. > :36:21.inquest seen by Mr Walker. The Daily Mail has reported that it
:36:22. > :36:31.suggests: But also that Elliot
:36:32. > :36:32.Johnson had made previous health issues relating
:36:33. > :36:38.to his being accepted as gay. Speaking to the BBC in response
:36:39. > :36:41.to the story, his father denies It is not relevant, Elliott
:36:42. > :36:51.took his life because he had been bullied and picked on generally
:36:52. > :36:55.by certain persons and let down by other organisations around
:36:56. > :36:57.the Conservative Party. He was treated badly,
:36:58. > :37:02.that is why he took his life. He was treated appallingly by people
:37:03. > :37:11.and organisations and we want to make sure that he receives
:37:12. > :37:14.justice for what happened to him. Many of Andre Walker's old friends
:37:15. > :37:17.have blamed him and shunned him. He says that has prevented him
:37:18. > :37:20.from being able to grieve. I was not able to go
:37:21. > :37:22.to the funeral service. Because of the things
:37:23. > :37:24.which were said about me. That was very hurtful
:37:25. > :37:26.because I would have liked Similarly I don't know where
:37:27. > :37:30.Elliott's final resting place is, I would like to visit it,
:37:31. > :37:33.whether that is going to be possible The one memorial service I was able
:37:34. > :37:40.to go to somebody screamed at me and I was effectively thrown out
:37:41. > :37:43.which has just made it impossible for me to pay my respects in the way
:37:44. > :37:47.that I feel I ought to. How would you describe Elliott
:37:48. > :37:49.as a person? He was great fun, we used to go out
:37:50. > :37:55.and have a real laugh and I think that this sort of sad life
:37:56. > :37:58.which people have characterised him as having in London where it was all
:37:59. > :38:08.very depressing and he didn't have many friends and people
:38:09. > :38:10.were bullying him on a day-to-day basis, to my mind is surely not him
:38:11. > :38:14.at all and I think it is sad that It's just gone 11.35am,
:38:15. > :38:18.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:19. > :38:20.in Scotland who leave us now we'll be talking about
:38:21. > :38:26.Jeremy Corbyn's appearance at a rally for CND, and a big week
:38:27. > :38:30.in the race to the White House. First though, the Sunday
:38:31. > :38:51.Politics where you are. In. Of a top 525%, one London Labour
:38:52. > :38:56.MP asks if the capital's teenagers are paying the price for failure in
:38:57. > :39:03.policy. Recognise them? Chuka Umunna is here in the studio. And Andrew
:39:04. > :39:06.Rossendale is also joining us, Conservative MP for Romford. What
:39:07. > :39:12.should we start with? Europe perhaps? Boris Johnson, he made
:39:13. > :39:17.waves throughout the land with his decision this week and the outgoing
:39:18. > :39:21.mayor was accused of potentially leaving a toxic legacy. Are you
:39:22. > :39:32.really sacrificing London's economy and its future on the basis of your
:39:33. > :39:36.personal ambition? I think it is illusory to think that London would
:39:37. > :39:42.somehow wither away and die if it was not for our membership of the
:39:43. > :39:47.European Union. On the contrary. What is his motivation? We believe
:39:48. > :39:51.in our country, as I do. We need to decide our own laws and destiny. You
:39:52. > :39:57.do not do that if you are in a political union with Europe. I think
:39:58. > :40:02.the threat to business is control from Brussels. And our inability to
:40:03. > :40:07.be able to even sign our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
:40:08. > :40:12.Brussels has to do everything and that is not acceptable. Chuka
:40:13. > :40:18.Umunna, him being part of this leave campaign makes it more difficult for
:40:19. > :40:21.the remaining campaign. That is the message. Because he is the winner
:40:22. > :40:26.twice in London? This referendum is about the future of our country and
:40:27. > :40:29.our city and it is far bigger than any one individual. I think Boris
:40:30. > :40:34.has damaged himself because it will probably come out anyway, and if he
:40:35. > :40:37.had come out in the way that Michael Gove or some of the others he did,
:40:38. > :40:41.instead of this flirtation with the Prime Minister, to try to get him
:40:42. > :40:45.onside, I think he would have got more credit. And it is garbage. I
:40:46. > :40:49.have just spent six years arguing against all the domestic things that
:40:50. > :40:52.this guy's government has been doing, troubling tuition fees, the
:40:53. > :40:57.bedroom tax, you name it. That has all been done by the Tory
:40:58. > :41:01.government. Listed on the those issues. The main issue revealed the
:41:02. > :41:07.clearest of choices in the contest to be the next mayor. Zac Goldsmith
:41:08. > :41:10.is also for leaving. But Sadiq Khan wants to remain. What part to the
:41:11. > :41:18.issue play in the race for City Hall? Dashboard part could the issue
:41:19. > :41:23.play. In or out, the question is at the core of London's mayoral race.
:41:24. > :41:27.This week, the two leading candidates started their own war of
:41:28. > :41:31.worlds. There are 500 million customers in the European Union. The
:41:32. > :41:35.rest of the world looks at envy at the European Union. At a time of
:41:36. > :41:39.uncertainty, why would we leave? I value my relationship with the EU.
:41:40. > :41:42.Half my family are European but this is about the future of London and
:41:43. > :41:51.our economy and I think we would be better out. Both have opposing
:41:52. > :41:57.positions, and will that influence how people vote in the election in
:41:58. > :42:02.May? We canvassed opinion, asking for people to vote for a Eurosceptic
:42:03. > :42:06.hot cross bun or a European croissant. Zac Goldsmith wants to
:42:07. > :42:11.leave the EU. Does their position on the EU affect the way that you will
:42:12. > :42:17.vote? Yes, it would. I will vote for Sadiq Khan. I will have a class on.
:42:18. > :42:30.Thank you very much. Which do you want to take? Eight ultimate bundle?
:42:31. > :42:40.Or a Sadiq Khan croissant? I am pro is conservative. But you might vote
:42:41. > :42:46.for Labour? Labour? Why is that? I want to stay in Europe. They do very
:42:47. > :42:50.much indeed. If I vote in the election, it will be about the hot
:42:51. > :42:57.cross bun, but not Europe. I will have a croissant without committing
:42:58. > :43:02.to a vote. Sadiq Khan's croissants proved more popular but will the two
:43:03. > :43:06.rival views on Europe prove decisive in the outcome of the mayoral
:43:07. > :43:10.election? Voters will receive a first and second preference vote in
:43:11. > :43:15.May and in every mayoral election since 2000, second preference votes
:43:16. > :43:19.have decided the victor. This political commentator believes that
:43:20. > :43:25.the issue of Europe may influence how voters choose their second
:43:26. > :43:28.preference vote. Ukip photos, on balance they are probably more
:43:29. > :43:33.likely to be conservative as a second preference. Green the second
:43:34. > :43:36.preference voters are more likely to be labour, particularly Jeremy
:43:37. > :43:42.Corbyn, frankly. That is better for Sadiq Khan. But the European issue
:43:43. > :43:45.might cloud that. It might still some of them towards Zac Goldsmith,
:43:46. > :43:49.and after all he is himself very much associated with green causes.
:43:50. > :43:54.And then you are down to other parties. The Lib Dems are likely to
:43:55. > :43:59.do better this time than last time, and they are strongly pro EU. You
:44:00. > :44:02.might expect them to tilt towards Sadiq Khan. But these are completed
:44:03. > :44:08.political times and nothing is for sure. Not even, it seems, which way
:44:09. > :44:13.business will fall on the debate. This week a joint letter in support
:44:14. > :44:17.of staying in Europe raised more questions than it answered. With two
:44:18. > :44:23.thirds of FTSE 100 companies declining to sign. We'll time works
:44:24. > :44:28.for London First, representing some of the capital's leading employers.
:44:29. > :44:32.-- will die. After the referendum, we will work with whoever is mayor,
:44:33. > :44:36.and they will work with the situation delivered from the
:44:37. > :44:42.referendum. That is fine. Are clear on the issues and housing, and we
:44:43. > :44:47.are very clear that London will be better off in Europe. After all, it
:44:48. > :44:51.is the business capital of Europe and it is a big thing to put at
:44:52. > :44:54.risk. Londoners will vote for a new mayor seven weeks before they go to
:44:55. > :44:58.the polls again for the EU referendum. We'll be two main
:44:59. > :45:05.contenders win or lose because of their distant views on Europe? --
:45:06. > :45:09.differing views. Do you think it will have an impact? How much will
:45:10. > :45:15.it hang over the mayoral race? I think it will play a big role. We
:45:16. > :45:17.have just had London First, one of the pre-eminent business
:45:18. > :45:21.organisations in London, saying that we are at Europe is's capital and
:45:22. > :45:27.that will be compromised if we are not in the European Union. Given its
:45:28. > :45:31.importance to bridge the -- importance to business, it is
:45:32. > :45:34.definitely going to play. Given its importance to the future of the City
:45:35. > :45:40.of London, it will definitely play there. We also have a lot of people
:45:41. > :45:43.with links to Europe, who have come here from other EU countries, who
:45:44. > :45:48.will have a vote in this mayoral contest, who do not have a vote at
:45:49. > :45:51.the referendum or in a general election scenario. I think it is
:45:52. > :45:55.going to play a role and you would expect it to because I think staying
:45:56. > :45:59.in is going to be good for our economy, good for our security and
:46:00. > :46:04.keep London at the top table of global cities.
:46:05. > :46:14.Andrew do you agree that polling suggests that London's population
:46:15. > :46:25.seems more sympathetic, along with Scotland, for staying in?
:46:26. > :46:31.It is not the case in my area, people are relishing the prospect
:46:32. > :46:35.that we can be free and trade with Europe and cooperate with Europe but
:46:36. > :46:41.not be part of a political union. But it is going to have an impact on
:46:42. > :46:49.the election, but I would say that Zac Goldsmith is at least being
:46:50. > :46:53.honest and truthful about what he believes. I think in the long term
:46:54. > :46:57.if London is able to trade freely with Europe and the rest of the
:46:58. > :47:01.world and be a global city, I would rather be the capital of the world
:47:02. > :47:05.than just the capital of Europe and I think we can do that but only if
:47:06. > :47:10.we are unchained ourselves from the European Union. This is such a load
:47:11. > :47:16.of rubbish, that everyone to get anything done we are dictated to by
:47:17. > :47:21.Brussels as it where. The fact is that in the overwhelming majority of
:47:22. > :47:25.situations the UK by minister, Tory or Labour, have been on the majority
:47:26. > :47:29.side for the position which is adopted. This idea that we can't get
:47:30. > :47:34.what we want done is garbage. Secondly I don't know of any non-EU
:47:35. > :47:40.country which is part of the free trade area that does not find itself
:47:41. > :47:44.subject to the rules which come with being part of that free trade area.
:47:45. > :47:51.What is the model you want? Norwegian? Swiss? And new
:47:52. > :47:55.partnership between the United Kingdom and Europe. The fifth
:47:56. > :48:00.largest trading nation in the world, we can do this, we don't need to be
:48:01. > :48:07.strangled by Brussels. We are not, why are you talking down our
:48:08. > :48:11.country? We are, we cannot decide our own laws, the European Court of
:48:12. > :48:16.Justice is sovereign over our own courts and Parliament. I want
:48:17. > :48:23.Britain to be an independent country cooperating and trading freely not
:48:24. > :48:27.subjected to higher authorities. We are an independent country, there
:48:28. > :48:35.are a acts of Harlem and passed over the last four years. What do you
:48:36. > :48:40.feel about London, is it a tall order? This specific point Chuka
:48:41. > :48:45.mentioned, is it a risk for Zac Goldsmith to take this position and
:48:46. > :48:49.put himself apparently opposed to a lot of business here? I don't
:48:50. > :48:53.believe it is a risk to stand up for what you believe in and he is a man
:48:54. > :48:57.of integrity. He will stand up on this because he knows in his heart
:48:58. > :49:00.that our future is global. We need to trade with the Commonwealth, the
:49:01. > :49:07.English-speaking world, countries far and wide. Is it not made more
:49:08. > :49:11.difficult because of how we perceive London? Absolutely, because as a
:49:12. > :49:15.nation you cannot sign a free trade agreement with Canada. We have to
:49:16. > :49:21.wait for Brussels to do it on our behalf. How crazy is it... Our
:49:22. > :49:25.history, our heritage around the world yet we cannot do trade deals
:49:26. > :49:30.with even the Commonwealth countries without Brussels giving it says so?
:49:31. > :49:34.We do do trade deals and the point is it is a question of your
:49:35. > :49:38.leveraged and bargaining power. I led a trade mission to Beijing in
:49:39. > :49:43.2013 and the Chinese said to me why is it your country wants to leave,
:49:44. > :49:46.some people in your country want to leave the European Union because
:49:47. > :49:49.when you are negotiating with us with the European Union you are
:49:50. > :49:55.sitting on one side of the table with half a billion people... They
:49:56. > :50:00.have said we will trade with you anyway whether you are in or out. I
:50:01. > :50:04.am not going to be disingenuous and say we will not be trading with
:50:05. > :50:09.anyone suddenly but I am saying we are in a stronger position when we
:50:10. > :50:14.are with other countries. Iceland has just done a trade deal with
:50:15. > :50:16.China, Iceland, the idea that we can do it... I am not saying that I am
:50:17. > :50:29.not saying that. But we asked our guest Chuka Umunna
:50:30. > :50:45.to give the view from his south In 2007 serious youth violence in
:50:46. > :50:51.our capital hit the headlines in a big way following the shooting in
:50:52. > :50:56.broad daylight of a young man in my constituency. Since then between
:50:57. > :51:00.2009 and 2012 the number of fatalities has abated. But the
:51:01. > :51:04.simple fact is the problem never went away. Sadly I am getting
:51:05. > :51:09.updates on an almost weekly basis from the police on incidents which
:51:10. > :51:14.are happening around my constituency. People want to know
:51:15. > :51:20.why what is happening is happening and the problem is that there is not
:51:21. > :51:25.one cause and is not one solution. Pairing thing, families of course
:51:26. > :51:28.are important and sometimes the perpetrators of these acts come from
:51:29. > :51:35.Celtic families. But many come from quite stable families. -- chaotic
:51:36. > :51:38.families. Two parents holding Chuka jobs to make ends meet so they don't
:51:39. > :51:50.have enough time to spend with their young people. The government has
:51:51. > :51:54.done some not bad things here, it created a network of experts, people
:51:55. > :51:58.who have worked with young people who descend around the country to
:51:59. > :52:02.advise on local appropriate solutions. They are disbanding that
:52:03. > :52:06.and that is madness. My fear if we don't deal with this issue and
:52:07. > :52:11.quickly is not only that we will see more fatalities but we will see this
:52:12. > :52:16.culture of violence proliferate. I don't want any of my young
:52:17. > :52:20.constituents growing up in that kind of environment when what they
:52:21. > :52:25.deserve is a safe environment full of opportunity that actually gives
:52:26. > :52:27.them the ability to realise their full potential and talent. That is
:52:28. > :52:30.what we have got a duty to sort. Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime,
:52:31. > :52:42.Stephen Greenhalgh, joins me now. The figures have come down in terms
:52:43. > :52:48.of fatalities of teenagers killed, but they are beginning to go up
:52:49. > :52:51.again, and the figures about injury in knife crime are going up, you
:52:52. > :52:56.don't deny that presumably. Are you worried? I thought the film was very
:52:57. > :53:03.thoughtful, this is a complex problem that requires a series of
:53:04. > :53:07.solutions. The statistics of a quarter increase in gang crime is
:53:08. > :53:14.wrong, in the last year gang crime is down about 5%. We are not at the
:53:15. > :53:18.levels of 2008 or 2012 but there has been a rise in knife crime with
:53:19. > :53:21.injury. A slight drop with teenagers. It's a complex picture
:53:22. > :53:26.but no doubt it is a problem that needs addressing and it affects
:53:27. > :53:29.certain parts of London, this is not London wide. The mayor 's office in
:53:30. > :53:33.the last few years under the stewardship of Boris Johnson is
:53:34. > :53:40.doing all it can around prevention. And a series of programmes dealing
:53:41. > :53:44.with emotional trauma and problems young people suffer, pathways into
:53:45. > :53:49.employment, intervention and how we help young people exit. Also those
:53:50. > :53:53.who are victims of violence, working within trauma centres to try to get
:53:54. > :53:59.a teachable moment to help them exit a life which is damaging. Are you
:54:00. > :54:02.getting on top of the problem? No doubt the focus on enforcement has
:54:03. > :54:06.suppressed the problem but you will not enforce your way out of this
:54:07. > :54:11.problem, it requires a programme around prevention. The idea that
:54:12. > :54:15.everything is ending and nothing is happening is disingenuous. There are
:54:16. > :54:18.you centres opening up in Barking and Dagenham based on goal in Wigan
:54:19. > :54:27.which saw youth crime dropped by 50%. We are seeing a number of
:54:28. > :54:33.bodies helping us prevent this becoming a problem. Of course more
:54:34. > :54:36.can be done but a lot is happening. Chuka do you recognise that? I don't
:54:37. > :54:42.think anyone is saying that there are not things being done, and as I
:54:43. > :54:46.said the government and the mayor have been doing things but the
:54:47. > :54:58.figures I have taken are more packed figures for the last three years --
:54:59. > :55:02.Mopac figures. It has gone up by 25% over the last three calendar years
:55:03. > :55:07.and the second thing I would say is that it is not just about what the
:55:08. > :55:11.mayor is doing, it is about central government and part of the challenge
:55:12. > :55:16.is I think we need to elevate youth work to be regarded as the same as
:55:17. > :55:21.teaching because youth workers often spend the same amount of time with
:55:22. > :55:26.young people as teachers. Part of the problem with local government
:55:27. > :55:32.cuts, 56% cut in the central government grant, a lot of youth
:55:33. > :55:41.provision is non-statutory. I don't understand, I saw you announced the
:55:42. > :55:50.appointment of Ray Lewis as the gang czar. I think if the mere meeting
:55:51. > :55:58.with him or not is a sideshow. -- the mayor. Let's focus on the issue,
:55:59. > :56:04.is it getting out of hand? It isn't, has it got worse in the last couple
:56:05. > :56:07.of years? Yes it has. Is there a programme around prevention and
:56:08. > :56:14.intervention, yes. Do you think you are not getting the support you
:56:15. > :56:18.would like from central government? No, we are getting a lot of central
:56:19. > :56:21.government support. Spending millions of pounds thanks to
:56:22. > :56:26.programmes in partnership with health, looking at training people
:56:27. > :56:30.to recognise mental health problems. Stuff in trauma centres because of
:56:31. > :56:33.that. We are working with education on programmes which get into
:56:34. > :56:39.referral units and alternative revision. That is with a couple of
:56:40. > :56:44.million pounds of EU funding to do that. We are working to try and
:56:45. > :56:50.solve this problem. You have the beginning of a problem, you had
:56:51. > :56:54.problems recently? Romford has a town centre, we have had gang
:56:55. > :57:01.problems, violence. But it's important to involve the voluntary
:57:02. > :57:05.sector. But I think Zac Goldsmith has great ideas in terms of early
:57:06. > :57:10.intervention, channelling the money to the local council to do more.
:57:11. > :57:14.There is no doubt youth services in my borough and others have been cut
:57:15. > :57:18.dramatically and that doesn't help. I think Chuka is making some good
:57:19. > :57:24.points and we should work on a cross-party basis. Can I just ask
:57:25. > :57:29.why you are here -- all you are here, you are very much for staying
:57:30. > :57:35.in Europe and you have looked at the police and security situation and
:57:36. > :57:39.you are in favour of staying in? I am a reluctant remainder, I have
:57:40. > :57:44.decided I support the decision that we should, our future is stronger
:57:45. > :57:51.and safer inside EU. For a number of reasons, three broad areas, this is
:57:52. > :57:59.for the people of these countries to decide, but we were struck in 2014
:58:00. > :58:03.when there was a life in -- once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to
:58:04. > :58:07.opt out that you could opt out of all the security negotiations and
:58:08. > :58:12.you could probably renegotiate that and it does not prove easy.
:58:13. > :58:14.Extradition which you would hope could be secured by
:58:15. > :58:21.intergovernmental agreement takes 18 months. With the system in Europe it
:58:22. > :58:25.takes a matter of weeks. Having access to intelligent and data,
:58:26. > :58:30.being able to extradite criminals is all easier with a collaborative
:58:31. > :58:36.framework inside EU. Would London be less safe? You cannot say, but I
:58:37. > :58:42.feel less secure being unable to stop criminals at the border. It is
:58:43. > :58:46.a factor we need to consider. And what did the mayor say when you
:58:47. > :58:58.share that view? This is a personal view. Boris has his view and has put
:58:59. > :59:01.his colours on Sunday and this Sunday I put my view and each person
:59:02. > :59:05.has to form their own opinion on this difficult issue. OK, now for
:59:06. > :59:18.the rest of the news in 60 seconds. 13 climate change protesters who is
:59:19. > :59:23.demonstrated in at Heathrow caused the cancellation of 25 flights have
:59:24. > :59:27.avoided jail. Instead they have received suspended sentences. They
:59:28. > :59:31.have been banned from Heathrow after being found guilty of aggravated
:59:32. > :59:36.trespass in and entering a security restricted area. Westminster Council
:59:37. > :59:40.has granted planning permission for a ?1.5 billion development on the
:59:41. > :59:44.site of new Scotland Yard HQ. The plans include what has been
:59:45. > :59:49.described as six architecture lay striking towers between 14 and 20
:59:50. > :59:54.stories. The move aims to save more than ?6 million a year in running
:59:55. > :59:59.costs and plans are subject to the approval of City Hall. Crossrail is
:00:00. > :00:04.dead, long live the Elizabeth line. The new line was renamed this week
:00:05. > :00:09.in honour of the Queen. Trains will travel under the centre of the city
:00:10. > :00:10.linking parts of Berkshire and Buckinghamshire to Essex when it
:00:11. > :00:25.opens in December 20 18. You masterminded the new Scotland
:00:26. > :00:32.yard sell-off. What is the latest state of play? We have sold around
:00:33. > :00:36.150 buildings and we have booked close to ?1 billion, ?950 million,
:00:37. > :00:39.and that has been reinvested into front-line policing. It is one of
:00:40. > :00:45.the reasons we have been able to make so many savings and keep police
:00:46. > :00:51.officer numbers at around about 80,000. Is that the right strategy?
:00:52. > :00:57.I'm worried that I would like to see more officers, I am worried about
:00:58. > :01:01.the disintegration of the safer neighbourhood schemes. There are
:01:02. > :01:07.more officers in your constituency than there have ever been. That is
:01:08. > :01:11.wrong. Andrew, in the time we have left? There is no doubt that crime
:01:12. > :01:16.has fallen in London under Boris and every public service including the
:01:17. > :01:20.police as to make the best use of resources. If it means channelling
:01:21. > :01:26.money away from buildings and into dealing with crime, of course it
:01:27. > :01:31.makes sense to me. No doubt. On that note. Good to see you. Chuka Umunna
:01:32. > :01:39.and Andrew Rossendale, thank you as well. Back to Andrew.
:01:40. > :01:41.We were talking earlier about divisions in the Conservative Party
:01:42. > :01:44.over Europe, but of course they're not the only party that's split over
:01:45. > :01:49.Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn addressed thousands at a rally for
:01:50. > :01:52.the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament in London, where he condemned
:01:53. > :01:54.Trident - a nuclear weapon that his party still
:01:55. > :02:10.They reckon it is the biggest anti-nuclear weapons March for a
:02:11. > :02:18.generation. Which means it is like the Oscars. For people with causes.
:02:19. > :02:23.The civil service union, it is one of the few unions against Trident
:02:24. > :02:27.instead of four Trident. We are giving free food for the people. We
:02:28. > :02:33.are from Hare Krishna. Don't make weapons, make food. We are here to
:02:34. > :02:36.draw attention to the links between nuclear power and nuclear weapons.
:02:37. > :02:40.This country should not have gone in for either of them but now we have
:02:41. > :02:45.the chance to get out of both of them. The only good bomb is a Yager
:02:46. > :02:57.bomb. You might disagree this morning. We have had a better time
:02:58. > :03:02.than anyone who has had to deal with Trident. Also there, Caroline Lucas
:03:03. > :03:06.and Nicola Sturgeon. This lady had an amazing knitted Jeremy Corbyn but
:03:07. > :03:10.the big draw was the man himself, who has devoted his adult life to
:03:11. > :03:14.the staff. Many of us have marched for many years and met for many
:03:15. > :03:20.years with the view that we bring about a peaceful world by arguing
:03:21. > :03:24.peacefully for it, putting forward the logical alternatives and showing
:03:25. > :03:31.two people the horror of war and the total horror of nuclear weapons,
:03:32. > :03:37.should they ever be used by anybody. A lot of Jeremy Corbyn's party agree
:03:38. > :03:41.with him. A survey of Labour members published this week showed that more
:03:42. > :03:46.than two thirds of them want to scrap Trident. The issue is that
:03:47. > :03:49.quite a lot of Labour MPs and trade unions do not think that way. I
:03:50. > :03:54.think he would have something better to do than being there along with
:03:55. > :03:58.the leaders of the Green Party, the SNP and Plaid Cymru. There was a
:03:59. > :04:04.conference just a couple of days ago with the GMB union who represent the
:04:05. > :04:07.workers in the shipyards, and they are proud of their skills and
:04:08. > :04:11.worried about their future. They want that sorted out quickly. That
:04:12. > :04:16.is a strong message to David Cameron and to Jeremy Corbyn. This week, the
:04:17. > :04:21.Labour branch of the campaign for nuclear disarmament was criticised
:04:22. > :04:26.after publishing a fact file that appears to compare Trident with
:04:27. > :04:31.World War II gas chambers. I think alluding to the gas chambers in this
:04:32. > :04:35.context is utterly grotesque. The truth is that the gas chambers were
:04:36. > :04:40.never a form of deterrent, they were never a method of war. They were not
:04:41. > :04:46.legitimate. In the 40s or at any time. They were about genocide,
:04:47. > :04:49.about wiping out a race of people. And to compare those things with the
:04:50. > :04:56.discussion that we are having here about a nuclear deterrent, I think
:04:57. > :05:00.it is utterly grotesque. The task of clearing it all up falls to the
:05:01. > :05:03.Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornbury, reviewing party policy.
:05:04. > :05:09.Although that might not be done before the Commons as to vote on new
:05:10. > :05:17.in Trident submarines later this year. And reporting for the -- from
:05:18. > :05:22.the CND demo. Yesterday was supposed to be Labour's day of campaigning
:05:23. > :05:25.for the European Union. But Mr Corbyn went to this big rally and
:05:26. > :05:31.that is what has been in the news. Discuss. Well, in his heart of
:05:32. > :05:35.hearts, it is not so much that Jeremy Corbyn does not want Britain
:05:36. > :05:40.to be in the European Union, he just does not want the European Union to
:05:41. > :05:42.exist. He thinks it is part of the global liberal capitalist
:05:43. > :05:47.conspiracy, and you heard him in the TV debates of the leadership
:05:48. > :05:51.contest, he does not really like the ewe but he is boxed into a corner
:05:52. > :05:55.and he has to pretend that he does. I was told at one stage she toyed
:05:56. > :06:05.with coming out against Britain's membership. Another edition -- in
:06:06. > :06:07.the leadership campaign he made some tortured remarks. I remember asking
:06:08. > :06:14.him to clarify his thinking and then there was a slightly awkward
:06:15. > :06:17.statement in which he said he would campaign for reform from within. And
:06:18. > :06:20.then later in the TV debates he was very harsh against the European
:06:21. > :06:25.Union. He does not really like it but he is boxed into a corner
:06:26. > :06:28.because for Jeremy Corbyn, there are more important battles and the more
:06:29. > :06:36.important battle is Trident. He has been a member of the CND since 1966
:06:37. > :06:40.and that is what he thinks. He has been entirely consistent on this.
:06:41. > :06:45.He's strike the Parliamentary Labour Party. He does not go to the
:06:46. > :06:48.meetings. And he wants to get the membership, this new membership in
:06:49. > :06:53.the country behind him, maybe even the party conference behind him, and
:06:54. > :06:57.that is how he would get his way. The macro that is absolutely right.
:06:58. > :07:00.If you talk to moderate figures in the Labour Party, privately they
:07:01. > :07:03.will say that this is not actually about Trident although there is no
:07:04. > :07:07.doubting Jeremy Corbyn's sincere beliefs. A lot of this is about
:07:08. > :07:12.control of the Labour Party. I think the problem for Jeremy Corbyn and
:07:13. > :07:16.the Labour Party as a whole is this reinforces the impression of a party
:07:17. > :07:20.that is talking to itself. Of course, all parties in opposition
:07:21. > :07:23.need to do that to some extent, but with a view to renewing and coming
:07:24. > :07:27.out stronger. And that is not going to be the outcome of this very
:07:28. > :07:32.divisive debate. What are your thoughts on this? It is a typically
:07:33. > :07:36.caught the night thing to do, because it is more focused on
:07:37. > :07:39.transforming the Labour Party than on policy outcome. He cannot
:07:40. > :07:44.seriously believe that this country is not going to renew Trident. He
:07:45. > :07:48.cannot seriously believe that the other nuclear powers would do
:07:49. > :07:52.something similar. What matters most to those around him is redefining
:07:53. > :07:57.what the Labour Party is permanently. It is a catastrophe for
:07:58. > :08:00.the party because it is not as if the political problem only kicks in
:08:01. > :08:06.if he successfully changes party policy. Just having the debate on
:08:07. > :08:10.Trident is problematic in and of itself. It was barmy in the 80s and
:08:11. > :08:13.to do it now when the number of nuclear powers is higher and the
:08:14. > :08:19.number of people who are rational is lower, it will strike voters as
:08:20. > :08:24.curious. Let's hope he goes to the DLP tomorrow because it is always
:08:25. > :08:28.fun when he does. Speaking of that, the American presidential elections
:08:29. > :08:32.went along with through in the process yesterday. Yesterday was the
:08:33. > :08:36.Democratic primary in South Carolina and Mrs Clinton won against Bernie
:08:37. > :08:40.Sanders and this is what she said after her landslide victory. Despite
:08:41. > :08:49.what you hear, we do not need to make America a great again. America
:08:50. > :08:56.has never stopped being great. CHEERING.
:08:57. > :09:03.But we do need to make America whole again. Instead of building walls, we
:09:04. > :09:11.need to be tearing down the barriers. Hillary Clinton in South
:09:12. > :09:15.Carolina. They move on super Tuesday, this coming Tuesday. I
:09:16. > :09:19.would suggest that the significance of that is twofold. That is a woman
:09:20. > :09:27.who thinks she has won the nomination and she probably has.
:09:28. > :09:30.Secondly, she is turning her attention to Donald Trump because
:09:31. > :09:35.make America great again is his campaign slogan. She thinks she is
:09:36. > :09:39.up against Trump in the election. All the indications are that she has
:09:40. > :09:44.won of the Democratic nomination. Marco Rubio could win the Republican
:09:45. > :09:49.nomination but it would take quite a circuitous route, maybe going to the
:09:50. > :09:52.convention floor. Which it has not done in my lifetime. And you can
:09:53. > :09:57.imagine how poisonous that would be for the party. I think it will be
:09:58. > :10:02.Hillary Clinton versus someone, probably versus Donald Trump. And I
:10:03. > :10:06.think the thing I take away from it is that as farcical as Trump is, as
:10:07. > :10:12.much of a blowhard as he is, and as crazy as this memory campaign is, it
:10:13. > :10:16.shows that a country can succeed despite its politics. And America
:10:17. > :10:20.has been doing this for decades. In the Texas debate, Mr Trump did not
:10:21. > :10:24.do so well. He was attacked on both sides from Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz,
:10:25. > :10:28.the junior senator for Texas. Although Trump must still be the
:10:29. > :10:34.favourite, he is not yet at the unstoppable shoo-in that Mrs Clinton
:10:35. > :10:37.has become. He is not unstoppable. Make no mistake, there are many
:10:38. > :10:41.within the party machine who would like to stop them. There could well
:10:42. > :10:48.be a very aggressive operation to stop them becoming the candidate. So
:10:49. > :10:51.far, it has not worked. There is an important point to make about Trump
:10:52. > :10:56.from a global point of view. We sit here and say, what a terrifying
:10:57. > :10:59.prospect, but remember, he will not be a democratically elected dictator
:11:00. > :11:03.if he ends up as president. Congress will have a lot of power to fetter
:11:04. > :11:07.him, even if he wants to build that wall he will have to get a vote
:11:08. > :11:11.through and that is very unlikely. He could still do a lot of damage as
:11:12. > :11:15.president, even with Congress against you. You are a powerful
:11:16. > :11:21.person. But Marco Rubio has finally got a good line of attack on him. If
:11:22. > :11:24.you had not got that $200 million from your father, you would be
:11:25. > :11:29.selling watches in Times Square. But it was only two weeks ago that he
:11:30. > :11:33.was duffed up by Chris Christie, who has now endorsed Donald Trump. And
:11:34. > :11:38.he does not like Marco Rubio. President Obama said the other day,
:11:39. > :11:41.I am absolutely convinced that the American people will not vote for
:11:42. > :11:45.Donald Trump as president. And you must assume he is right. We have
:11:46. > :11:49.learned two things about Hillary Clinton in 2008 and this time
:11:50. > :11:52.around, she will probably make an excellent president but she is a
:11:53. > :11:59.deeply flawed candidate. You assume that she should beat Trump as the
:12:00. > :12:04.nominee but we have seen some flaws in her as a candidate. And maybe he
:12:05. > :12:11.would manage to beat. This could be the last opportunity for the
:12:12. > :12:15.Republicans. There is no Democratic frontrunner since McGovern in 1972
:12:16. > :12:19.with bigger negatives than Hillary Clinton. The White House is
:12:20. > :12:23.convinced that this would be a victory if it was Trump against
:12:24. > :12:26.Clinton. I wonder where grand and impressive reputation comes from
:12:27. > :12:31.because from an outsider's perspective, the bullet points on
:12:32. > :12:40.her CV were messing up Hillary care in 1993, which caused the Republican
:12:41. > :12:45.clean sweep in the Congress, and the second was blowing a 20 point lead
:12:46. > :12:49.over Barack Obama at the end of 2007 in the primary campaign. She was an
:12:50. > :12:54.OK Secretary of State but nothing world is changing. To have the
:12:55. > :12:57.reputation she does as a very grand, conquering figure on the basis of
:12:58. > :13:02.that career seems overdone. We will leave it there. If Ted Cruz cannot
:13:03. > :13:13.win on super Tuesday, he is finished. If Trump is at all in the
:13:14. > :13:15.polls, Marco Rubio is finished. -- if Trump is ahead in the polls.
:13:16. > :13:18.The Daily Politics is back on BBC2 at midday tomorrow,
:13:19. > :13:20.and we'll be back here next Sunday at 11am.
:13:21. > :14:22.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:23. > :14:23...and open our eyes to a smarter way to buy.
:14:24. > :14:25.I am in the shop two, three times a week.
:14:26. > :14:31.She's always like, "This is a nice dress. These are nice shoes."