:00:36. > :00:38.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:42.begins a new drive urging Scots to support what she calls
:00:43. > :00:46."the beautiful dream" of independence.
:00:47. > :00:51.Tough talk from George Osborne ahead of his Budget on Wednesday.
:00:52. > :00:53.The Chancellor wants us to live within our means.
:00:54. > :00:56.Fighting talk too, from the man in his shadow.
:00:57. > :00:59.John McDonnell wants to revive Labour's economic credibility.
:01:00. > :01:05.And does Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party have a problem
:01:06. > :01:09.Labour students at Oxford are already being investigated
:01:10. > :01:16.and now party students at another university will also face scrutiny.
:01:17. > :01:21.Could Brexit cost the capital billions of pounds in infrastructure
:01:22. > :01:34.And with me three Fleet Street journos, living the dream.
:01:35. > :01:40.Nick Watt, Julia Harley-Brewer and Tim Shipman.
:01:41. > :01:45.For the rest of us, it is a bit of a nightmare!
:01:46. > :01:47.So, four months ago, George Osborne sounded upbeat
:01:48. > :01:52.Writing in the Sun on Sunday, ahead of Wednesday's Budget,
:01:53. > :01:54.the Chancellor says the world is facing its most uncertain period
:01:55. > :01:58.He says Britain has to act now, rather than pay later,
:01:59. > :02:03.Let's listen to the Chancellor on the Marr Show a little earlier.
:02:04. > :02:06.I think the world is a much more difficult and dangerous place.
:02:07. > :02:09.My message in this Budget is that the world is a more
:02:10. > :02:12.uncertain place than at any time since the financial crisis.
:02:13. > :02:16.We need to act now so we don't pay later.
:02:17. > :02:21.That is why we need to find additional savings,
:02:22. > :02:24.equivalent to 50p in every ?100 the Government spends by the end
:02:25. > :02:27.We have got to live within our means to stay secure.
:02:28. > :02:33.That is the way we make Britain fit for the future.
:02:34. > :02:39.That was the Chancellor earlier this morning. What did we learn? He is
:02:40. > :02:44.preparing the ground for a very difficult budget. Why is he talking
:02:45. > :02:49.about the difficult global economic circumstances? We have a significant
:02:50. > :02:55.slowdown in China but it helps him in the EU referendum campaign. Why
:02:56. > :02:58.risk leaving the EU when it is difficult economic circumstances? It
:02:59. > :03:03.helps him with a budget. You need to expend why he was talking in the
:03:04. > :03:07.July budget, the Autumn Statement, targeting a 10 billion budget
:03:08. > :03:13.surplus by 2020 and now he will be talking back calories and ?18
:03:14. > :03:21.billion hole in the size of the economy. Will he be able to meet
:03:22. > :03:26.that surplus? He needs an alibi for that. All the global headwinds,
:03:27. > :03:29.problems in the emerging markets, the slowdown in China, the Eurozone
:03:30. > :03:34.struggling to be overwhelmed. We knew that back in July. Nothing has
:03:35. > :03:39.changed. The thing about George Osborne is he is a politician. It is
:03:40. > :03:43.always about politics. It is not ideal, coming into local elections,
:03:44. > :03:49.London mayoral elections, to be giving a load of cuts to public
:03:50. > :03:53.services and possibly tax rises. The reality is he is always looking at
:03:54. > :03:59.the long game and he does always play a brilliant politicians long
:04:00. > :04:05.game. He is looking to 2020 and does not care. He also plays a bad shot
:04:06. > :04:11.game. Will it be a difficult budget or will it be a steady issues
:04:12. > :04:15.budget? What is striking about back in this morning, at least half of it
:04:16. > :04:21.was about the European Union and not the budget. The rest of it was about
:04:22. > :04:24.the Tory leadership and him taking potshots at Boris Johnson. The
:04:25. > :04:28.subtext of this budget is it has been a difficult and dangerous time
:04:29. > :04:34.for George Osborne and his teacher. He sat there and said, I am not
:04:35. > :04:40.going to sit in this chair and mumble away. Who could he be talking
:04:41. > :04:44.about there? We were told week ago that the subtext of the budget would
:04:45. > :04:48.be the dangers of Brexit and the Tory leadership. It is not the
:04:49. > :04:57.subtext, it is the text. There is hardly anything in it in terms of
:04:58. > :05:00.big stuff. Steady as she goes. Can we just have another shout out for
:05:01. > :05:07.the brilliant headline, genius political strategist clears up mess
:05:08. > :05:10.made by genius political strategist. He may be nursing a little rabbit to
:05:11. > :05:15.surprise as always! Now, if a certain referendum had
:05:16. > :05:18.gone a bit differently, Scotland, would be an independent
:05:19. > :05:20.country in just over ten days' time. Those wanting to leave the UK didn't
:05:21. > :05:25.win that argument in 2014 but that hasn't dented the fortunes
:05:26. > :05:28.of the SNP, who are riding high It's the party's Spring Conference
:05:29. > :05:31.in Glasgow this weekend, and we're joined now
:05:32. > :05:41.from there by the First Minister Good morning. A pleasure to be with
:05:42. > :05:48.you, Andrew. Had the referendum gone your way, we would be ten days from
:05:49. > :05:53.independents. You will be taking a massive and unsustainable ?15
:05:54. > :05:56.billion budget deficit, 10% of Scottish GDP. What would you be
:05:57. > :06:04.doing to get that down? We would deal with it in the same way the UK
:06:05. > :06:13.dealt with its deficit in 2009/ when they had 2.2% of the GDP. -- 2009/
:06:14. > :06:17.2010. They will be building on the underlying fundamental strengths of
:06:18. > :06:21.the Scottish economy. Our this goal position has been broadly similar to
:06:22. > :06:25.the rest of the UK and, in some years, better than the rest of the
:06:26. > :06:30.UK. Onshore revenues are growing at a faster rate than the fall in
:06:31. > :06:33.offshore revenues. We have higher employment and faster productivity
:06:34. > :06:36.growth. The economy is fundamentally strong and that would have been a
:06:37. > :06:43.very good basis on which to become an independent country. Did you not
:06:44. > :06:47.oppose most efforts of the British government to get the deficit down?
:06:48. > :06:51.I opposed many measures that George Osborne has taken. I do not say we
:06:52. > :06:55.should not try to get the deficit down. I have opposed and continue to
:06:56. > :06:59.oppose the speed at which it is happening in the way in which it is
:07:00. > :07:03.happening but no one would deny that countries want to get their fiscal
:07:04. > :07:07.positions into a more stable condition and the UK is in right
:07:08. > :07:14.now. The point I'm making is the Scottish economy is fundamentally
:07:15. > :07:17.strong economy. Much of what I have said illustrates that point. Let's
:07:18. > :07:21.look at some of the things you have said. You have said most countries
:07:22. > :07:25.have deficits. Can you name another at Fat economy 80s after the
:07:26. > :07:35.financial crash that has a budget deficit of 10% of GDP. You do not
:07:36. > :07:42.look at just one year full if I go back to that -- two 2008, 2009, it
:07:43. > :07:45.was double that of Scotland. Our this goal position has been stronger
:07:46. > :07:51.but is not right now because of the particular issues. Is it not the
:07:52. > :07:56.case that Scotland's deficit now is the highest in the European Union?
:07:57. > :08:02.That is true, isn't it? In the year we had figures published in this
:08:03. > :08:08.past week, we have a very difficult and challenging set of figures. It
:08:09. > :08:13.is the highest. No country, whether the UK, Scotland or another EU
:08:14. > :08:17.country, makes judgments about that this good strength of that country
:08:18. > :08:21.on the strength of one year's goes. The point I am making is over the
:08:22. > :08:26.past ten years, our fiscal position has been broadly similar to the UK
:08:27. > :08:30.and coming summer beiges, has been significantly better. If you project
:08:31. > :08:34.forward to the next five years, the future is much more important than
:08:35. > :08:40.the past, onshore revenues are likely to Bath the outstrip the
:08:41. > :08:45.decline in offshore revenues. -- basked in the outstrip. The North
:08:46. > :08:49.Sea contains difficulties for those working in the North Sea and
:08:50. > :08:52.economies on the North East of Scotland. The economy of Scotland is
:08:53. > :08:57.fundamentally Scotland. The economy of Scotland is
:08:58. > :09:00.more than one year. You have said it is a snapshot. Without oil revenues,
:09:01. > :09:06.and there are no oil revenues now, without the revenues, Scotland has
:09:07. > :09:11.run a persistent budget deficit of over 10% every year for 13 years.
:09:12. > :09:19.You have a systemic deficit problem. Why should you not look at oil
:09:20. > :09:22.revenues? Oil revenues are there and have been contributing to the
:09:23. > :09:28.Treasury to the tune of ?300 billion. They are not there now.
:09:29. > :09:34.Without them you have run a persistent budget deficit and have
:09:35. > :09:37.done for 13 years. I accept it is the future that matters more than
:09:38. > :09:41.the past. If you look at the projections for the next five years,
:09:42. > :09:45.our onshore revenues, remember more than 90% of the Scottish economy
:09:46. > :09:51.comes from onshore and not offshore. If you look five years ahead,
:09:52. > :09:59.onshore revenues are projected to grow in the region of ?14 billion.
:10:00. > :10:03.That is many times before in offshore revenues in that period. I
:10:04. > :10:07.am not denying the challenge of North Sea and other countries.
:10:08. > :10:12.Norway is facing exactly the same challenge. Because they are better
:10:13. > :10:16.prepared for it and have Stuart did oil resources better, Norway, in the
:10:17. > :10:21.last couple of weeks true down on its massive oil fund. The powers
:10:22. > :10:28.that independence would have given as and we did not vote yes, we have
:10:29. > :10:35.had -- we would have had ability to draw down on that faster. Why are
:10:36. > :10:41.onshore revenues growing less strongly in Scotland than the rest
:10:42. > :10:47.of the UK? That is a long-standing issue. One issue at the heart of
:10:48. > :10:51.that is growth in the heart of London. We are seeing a narrowing in
:10:52. > :10:55.some of the long-standing gap there has been between aspects of the
:10:56. > :10:59.Scottish economy and the UK economy. If we take productivity, for a long
:11:00. > :11:05.time Scotland lags significantly behind the rest of the UK. Over the
:11:06. > :11:10.past years we have close that gap is it that can leave. We still lag
:11:11. > :11:13.behind our European competitors and that is a problem. I am not standing
:11:14. > :11:18.here denying the challenges that the Scottish economy has. In the same
:11:19. > :11:23.way you have been talking about the Chancellor's budget and the same way
:11:24. > :11:27.the UK economy has challenges and across the European Union, they have
:11:28. > :11:31.challenges. There are real strength is in the Scottish economy. The real
:11:32. > :11:38.question should be how we build on and accents are the big strengths.
:11:39. > :11:46.Revenues per person in Scotland where ?10,700 in the years 2011, 20
:11:47. > :11:51.12. They are now ?10,000, 700 ( even with the growth in revenues. The
:11:52. > :11:56.offshore has offset that. We still have a fundamental deficit problem.
:11:57. > :12:04.I am not denying we have a deficit. The UK has a deficit. Take revenues
:12:05. > :12:10.per head of population, which is what you decided to me there. In the
:12:11. > :12:15.most recent year, our revenues per head of population are broadly
:12:16. > :12:19.similar to the UK. In every one of the past 35 years, revenues per head
:12:20. > :12:23.of population have been higher than the rest of the UK. I accept we have
:12:24. > :12:28.a challenge in the North Sea. I accept that like all oil-producing
:12:29. > :12:32.countries, we have challenges about how we transition away from oil and
:12:33. > :12:36.gas over the years to come, though there is a great deal of attention
:12:37. > :12:38.in the North Sea. These are challenges we should embrace and
:12:39. > :12:43.challenges we should be working out how we face up to and address.
:12:44. > :12:50.Scotland is doing that and we'll do that on the basis of fundamental
:12:51. > :12:56.strengths in our economy. -- will do that. Scotland pays per capita about
:12:57. > :13:02.the same as the UK average. I am talking about the current year. What
:13:03. > :13:08.I am saying is, you cannot judge the economy in one year. It is similar
:13:09. > :13:11.in one year in 34 of the past 35 years and has been higher. That is
:13:12. > :13:18.the point I am making. The reason you are running a deficit, per
:13:19. > :13:24.capita spending is so much higher than in Scotland it is ?1400 higher
:13:25. > :13:27.public spending per person. Westminster that is that build it is
:13:28. > :13:36.the difference between tax revenues and what you spend. -- fits that
:13:37. > :13:45.bill. It is a deficit. The UK is in deficit in Scotland is in deficit.
:13:46. > :13:49.It is twice as big! In 2008, 2009, the UK deficit was twice as big as
:13:50. > :13:53.Scotland it will vary from year to year. In terms of the point about
:13:54. > :13:59.per capita spending, there are very good reasons why someone who knows
:14:00. > :14:03.Scotland well, we have a country where one in five of the population
:14:04. > :14:08.lives in a row and remote community. I was Health Secretary for five
:14:09. > :14:12.years. It cost more to deliver health services on an island or
:14:13. > :14:19.rural community than it does in Glasgow. Westminster pays for that,
:14:20. > :14:21.it makes up the difference. If you are independent you would either
:14:22. > :14:28.have to raise taxes or cut spending. What would it be? By how much would
:14:29. > :14:33.you raise taxes and cut spending? We set a budget in devolved Scotland
:14:34. > :14:35.every year. We make choices, sometimes these are tough choices.
:14:36. > :14:40.If Scotland were independent, we would do that as well. The point I
:14:41. > :14:43.am making, the economy of an independent Scotland would face
:14:44. > :14:48.challenges like other economies do. We're in a fundamentally strong
:14:49. > :14:53.position. Employment is higher than any other UK nation. Productivity is
:14:54. > :14:57.growing faster. We have a number of key strengths in the economy. One of
:14:58. > :15:03.the challenges is how we build on these strengths and get our economy
:15:04. > :15:04.growing faster. We have a number of world leading sectors in our
:15:05. > :15:15.economy. The fact is your deficit was ?15
:15:16. > :15:20.billion, moving with oil revenues at 2 billion last year. This year oil
:15:21. > :15:29.revenues are reckoned to be at zero so your budget deficit would get
:15:30. > :15:35.even worse. Two cut your deficit to anything like acceptable levels you
:15:36. > :15:41.would have to increase tax to 16% or cut spending by 14% or a combination
:15:42. > :15:45.of the two, what would it be? We would deal with the deficit in the
:15:46. > :15:54.same way the UK is dealing with the deficit and dealt in the deficit --
:15:55. > :15:58.with the deficit in 2009/ ten. We would be in the same position as
:15:59. > :16:04.many other countries but we would be in a position where we have got a
:16:05. > :16:09.fundamentally strong economy. I wish Scotland have voted yes in 2014, if
:16:10. > :16:16.it had done we would have spent the last almost two years preparing for
:16:17. > :16:21.Scotland becoming independent. In a negotiation around independence,
:16:22. > :16:25.there would have been discussions about assets, liability, the share
:16:26. > :16:30.of defence spending, so that's what would have been the case if we voted
:16:31. > :16:33.for independence. Looking ahead, we have a strong economy and the
:16:34. > :16:40.challenge is how we grow it even faster. You accept surely that you
:16:41. > :16:45.wouldn't be allowed to join the European Union with a 10% deficit,
:16:46. > :16:52.you would have to agree to Brussels programme, correct? We are getting
:16:53. > :16:56.into some ridiculous territory here and one of the most ridiculous
:16:57. > :17:00.arguments. Scotland wouldn't have been out of the EU, we wouldn't have
:17:01. > :17:05.been in the position of an accession state. It is a bit rich for anybody,
:17:06. > :17:10.given where we are right now, with the prospect of being taken out of
:17:11. > :17:16.the EU ahead of us, for scaremongering about the prospects
:17:17. > :17:19.of that. With two weeks to go until independence, instead of increases
:17:20. > :17:27.in public spending which you announced yesterday... They didn't
:17:28. > :17:31.vote yes. But if it had been, you would have been looking at the list
:17:32. > :17:36.of hospitals and schools to close, you would be the austerity party,
:17:37. > :17:39.that's what you would have to do. That's ridiculous. Countries the
:17:40. > :17:45.world over have deficits and deal with them. We would also have been
:17:46. > :17:52.taking on the greater powers to grow our economy, particularly our own
:17:53. > :17:57.short economy. Italy and Greece had 10% deficit and you know the
:17:58. > :18:02.austerity they had to go through. I think this argument starts to tip
:18:03. > :18:05.over into being incredible, we start to compare Scotland, with all of the
:18:06. > :18:10.strength of the Scottish economy, to countries like Greece and Italy. I
:18:11. > :18:13.have spoken about the fundamental strengths of our economy, not least
:18:14. > :18:18.the fact we have had the longest period of economic growth since the
:18:19. > :18:27.devolution. You have said all of that. Yes, we have challenges, but
:18:28. > :18:36.Scotland has a strong economy. Then why do your revenues like you're
:18:37. > :18:45.spending by ?2400 per person? -- lag your spending. We have a deficit
:18:46. > :18:50.like many other countries... Nobody has a deficit like Scotland's. We
:18:51. > :18:55.have a particular issue because of the fall in North Sea revenues. It
:18:56. > :19:03.is an indictment of Westminster mismanagement that unlike Norway, we
:19:04. > :19:08.don't have a massive oil fund to help deal with that. Westminster is
:19:09. > :19:12.paying for your deficit, Westminster is paying for the difference for the
:19:13. > :19:16.rest of the deficit, would you like to thank the rest of the people of
:19:17. > :19:21.the United Kingdom for making up for the deficit you have got?
:19:22. > :19:26.Westminster has a deficit of its own, it is ?1 trillion in debt. That
:19:27. > :19:34.is not the deficit, that is the debt. That is why I said debt, I
:19:35. > :19:38.understand the difference between deficit and debt, but it has
:19:39. > :19:42.accumulated debt of ?1 trillion, it has an annual deficit just like
:19:43. > :19:48.Scotland and many other countries do. It is actually 1.5 trillion,
:19:49. > :19:53.even worse than you think. I was being kind to them, Andrew! You
:19:54. > :19:57.should be kind because they are saving you quite a bit of money!
:19:58. > :19:59.Does Labour have a problem dealing with allegations of anti-semitism?
:20:00. > :20:02.The party is worried enough to have established an inquiry
:20:03. > :20:03.into the Labour Club at Oxford University
:20:04. > :20:06.where there are accusations that members used off-colour language
:20:07. > :20:09.And the Sunday Politics has been told that the investigation
:20:10. > :20:13.will look at new claims from another university.
:20:14. > :20:16.It comes after an activist with controversial views was allowed
:20:17. > :20:18.back into the party then promptly chucked out again last week.
:20:19. > :20:23.Does Jeremy Corbyn's support for causes like the Palestinians
:20:24. > :20:27.or Stop The War mean he's not tough enough when there are allegations
:20:28. > :20:30.It's seen that way by some students at Oxford.
:20:31. > :20:33.Last month the vice-chair of the Labour club there resigned,
:20:34. > :20:39.claiming some members had a problem with Jews and used words like Zio,
:20:40. > :20:42.a nickname for Jewish people that many find offensive.
:20:43. > :20:45.It's now being investigated by the Labour peer Baroness Royle,
:20:46. > :20:47.who is also looking at the wider issue of behaviour in
:20:48. > :20:50.We understand she's now extended her investigation
:20:51. > :20:53.to include students at the London School of Economics.
:20:54. > :20:56.This week, they have been electing a new general secretary
:20:57. > :21:03.One of the candidates, Rayhan Uddin, who's also
:21:04. > :21:05.in the Labour group, has been criticised for some
:21:06. > :21:09.Facebook posts that emerged during the campaign.
:21:10. > :21:12.In one, he talked about leading Zionists wanting to take over
:21:13. > :21:18.the student union to make it right wing and Zio again.
:21:19. > :21:33.Facebook post: of language, writing in another
:21:34. > :21:35.He has been referred to Labour's investigation
:21:36. > :21:39.into student politics by someone who now works for an MP.
:21:40. > :21:49.We've seen the letter they wrote, which said:
:21:50. > :21:58.Because it was an older generation of activists that came up
:21:59. > :22:00.at Prime Minister's Questions this week.
:22:01. > :22:03.I was completely appalled to see yesterday that the Labour Party has
:22:04. > :22:07.readmitted someone to their party who says, and I believe
:22:08. > :22:12.that the 9/11 suicide bombers, and I quote, must never be condemned
:22:13. > :22:15.and belongs to an organisation that says "we defend the Islamic State
:22:16. > :22:21.He was referring to Gerry Downing, who had also blogged
:22:22. > :22:25.about what he called the Jewish question,
:22:26. > :22:28.after being readmitted to the party this week he was resuspended.
:22:29. > :22:31.He reckons it's really a battle between different wings in Labour.
:22:32. > :22:35.You've said there is a conspiracy of people out to get Jeremy Corbyn,
:22:36. > :22:40.Well, Dan Jarvis and these people of course, obviously there's
:22:41. > :22:45.the whole Blairite wing of the party and others, who have been absolutely
:22:46. > :22:48.disgusted at the membership and the left-wing surge
:22:49. > :23:00.in the membership and can't believe what happened.
:23:01. > :23:04.And do you think they are using race and religion as a tool for that?
:23:05. > :23:08.Whereas the Labour MP Wes Streeting says there is a problem
:23:09. > :23:11.I think in certain parts of the British left,
:23:12. > :23:15.there has always been a virulent form of pretty bigoted politics,
:23:16. > :23:22.particularly in terms of anti-Semitism, which has been
:23:23. > :23:24.an issue in some of our university campuses
:23:25. > :23:30.There's also a mentality which I think has been epitomised
:23:31. > :23:33.by the repulsive use of Mr Downing, which is not so much Stop The War
:23:34. > :23:38.People who seem to hate their country more than they hate
:23:39. > :23:44.And we have got to start sending a far stronger message that this
:23:45. > :23:47.is simply not acceptable in the modern Labour Party.
:23:48. > :23:50.Jeremy Corbyn's supporters, like those in the grass roots
:23:51. > :23:54.campaign group Momentum, say none of this is fair on him.
:23:55. > :23:57.Corbyn comes under the most incredible level of attacks and one
:23:58. > :24:00.of the things that he's attacked for is his long-standing commitment
:24:01. > :24:08.to anti-war, anti-imperialism, peace in the Middle East.
:24:09. > :24:11.And I think that's where some of this comes from.
:24:12. > :24:13.He does absolutely condemn anti-Semitism, he has time
:24:14. > :24:16.There is not a shred of anti-Semitism in his personal
:24:17. > :24:21.make-up, in his moral make-up or in his political make-up.
:24:22. > :24:23.And as for Labour's investigation into anti-Semitism among students,
:24:24. > :24:30.there's no time frame for when it will report.
:24:31. > :24:36.Let's speak now to the Labour MP, John Mann, who's chair
:24:37. > :24:41.of the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Anti-Semitism.
:24:42. > :24:47.He's in Berlin at an Anti-Semitism Conference.
:24:48. > :24:53.Is there an anti-Semitism problem in the Labour Party? Of course, that's
:24:54. > :24:59.why these issues have got attention. It is not a big problem, but a small
:25:00. > :25:06.problem when it comes to racism needs to be dealt with. We have been
:25:07. > :25:09.here before. I can recall 30 years ago when there were extremists
:25:10. > :25:15.trying to ban Jewish societies in some of the universities, and we
:25:16. > :25:19.clamped down on them very hard then and they weren't in the Labour Party
:25:20. > :25:23.but it is the same kind of people, the same ideology. Some of that has
:25:24. > :25:30.crept into the Labour Party and it needs to be removed. Why has it come
:25:31. > :25:37.back? People could write big academic books on why it has
:25:38. > :25:41.re-surged but what we have seen in history is that anti-Semitism never
:25:42. > :25:47.seems to go away. But why in the Labour Party has come back? People
:25:48. > :25:51.have obviously chosen to dissociate with the Labour Party in the growth
:25:52. > :25:57.of membership, some of those people have attitudes that are very
:25:58. > :26:01.outdated and prejudiced. There is no space for them in the Labour Party
:26:02. > :26:05.and the reason that is important is because I am getting young Jewish
:26:06. > :26:10.activists posturing whether the Labour Party is the place for them
:26:11. > :26:14.in terms of their support, their vote and their activity, and we
:26:15. > :26:22.cannot tolerate a situation where any part of society doesn't feel
:26:23. > :26:26.that a major political party like the Labour Party is not the place
:26:27. > :26:30.for them, which is why prompt effective action and vigilance on
:26:31. > :26:34.this is required, including from Jeremy as the leader of the Labour
:26:35. > :26:43.Party. Is the Labour leader doing enough? Or the fact he has talked
:26:44. > :26:47.about his friends, Hamas, Hezbollah, and shared platforms with people who
:26:48. > :26:53.have been very hostile to Israel and so on, is that a disadvantage? Is it
:26:54. > :26:58.encouraging anti-Semitism or is it not relevant? I have met Jeremy
:26:59. > :27:03.recently to discuss anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and it is clear to
:27:04. > :27:08.me that he does not tolerate or support it but what he has to do is
:27:09. > :27:13.follow that free with actions and ensure that others in the Labour
:27:14. > :27:19.Party follow it through with actions because the kind of thing, the
:27:20. > :27:24.atmosphere that is being created in Oxford University is not a one-off.
:27:25. > :27:28.This has been happening elsewhere as well. While these can be seen as
:27:29. > :27:34.small incidents, if you are the young Jewish person who is impacted
:27:35. > :27:40.by it, it is not small for you and it is magnified in the universities,
:27:41. > :27:45.which are pretty tolerant places and rightly so, if there is in tolerance
:27:46. > :27:49.to any particular group and to Jewish students. We are not prepared
:27:50. > :27:53.to have that in the Labour Party, there has got to be action, it has
:27:54. > :27:57.got to be led from the front and it has got to be decisive action. There
:27:58. > :28:03.is no space for these people in the Labour Party or is there space for
:28:04. > :28:11.people in any way excusing their actions. But there is an inquiry
:28:12. > :28:15.into what has been going on at Oxford, but is your party doing
:28:16. > :28:19.enough about this? Because I understand these inquiries may be
:28:20. > :28:25.subsumed into a much bigger inquiry into bullying and so on. What is
:28:26. > :28:30.your feeling? It is action by results. If there is a decisive
:28:31. > :28:35.action, there will be an almighty row which wouldn't be helpful but
:28:36. > :28:42.the idea that those of us who fought over decades, challenging
:28:43. > :28:47.anti-Semitism and other forms of racism, are going to accept other
:28:48. > :28:53.than the highest of standards in our own party, well I can tell you it is
:28:54. > :28:58.going to happen. There are many of us who will only accept absolutely
:28:59. > :29:03.the highest standards. We are not prepared to tolerate any form of
:29:04. > :29:08.anti-Semitism or any excuse for it in the Labour Party or anywhere else
:29:09. > :29:11.in society. But in our own party absolutely not and therefore there
:29:12. > :29:16.has got to be action, words are not good enough. Historically the Labour
:29:17. > :29:22.Party has done well from the Jewish vote. The Jewish vote over time has
:29:23. > :29:26.tended to vote Labour. If this anti-Semitism continues in your
:29:27. > :29:33.party, are you in danger of losing the Jewish vote? We prepared a
:29:34. > :29:36.report ten years ago on a cross-party basis that highlighted
:29:37. > :29:40.anti-Semitism in all of its aspects including from the right but also
:29:41. > :29:45.what was described by some as the new anti-Semitism on the left. It is
:29:46. > :29:50.not new but it had been dormant for a long period of time. People have
:29:51. > :29:55.been accustomed to the Labour Party and that part of the left being
:29:56. > :30:01.highly tolerant to everybody. That has got to happen, you cannot have a
:30:02. > :30:05.progressive party of any substance in politics if it allows any form of
:30:06. > :30:10.intolerance and therefore we are not prepared to have second-class
:30:11. > :30:16.citizens, second-class form of racism allowed in the Labour Party.
:30:17. > :30:22.Anti-Semitism has got to be challenged, including anti-Semitism
:30:23. > :30:28.on the left, and so robustly and put back in the dustbin again. That is
:30:29. > :30:34.my intention in the Labour Party. I am looking forward to Jeremy and the
:30:35. > :30:38.National Executive being decisive, removing the anti-Semites, going
:30:39. > :30:41.into where there is intolerance and explaining what is anti-Semitism and
:30:42. > :30:45.why we are not prepared to have it in our party. Thanks for joining us
:30:46. > :30:48.this morning. Labour's Shadow Chancellor John
:30:49. > :30:50.McDonnell ran Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign on a platform
:30:51. > :30:52.fighting not just austerity, Now though, he wants to be
:30:53. > :30:55.the new voice of fiscal responsibility, and says he's
:30:56. > :30:57.going to re-write In a moment we'll be talking
:30:58. > :31:01.to John McDonnell's number two, the Shadow Chief Secretary
:31:02. > :31:02.to the Treasury. But first let's hear
:31:03. > :31:05.what Mr McDonnell had to say It is a wider ambition then just
:31:06. > :31:08.Labour's fiscal credibility. I want to try to restore credibility
:31:09. > :31:11.to economic policy-making generally, not just within the Labour Party
:31:12. > :31:14.but across politics too. We have had too long,
:31:15. > :31:16.for example, the last six years we have had fiscal rules
:31:17. > :31:19.which have not been met, I am trying to encourage
:31:20. > :31:24.a better economic debate. What I have said is quite clearly,
:31:25. > :31:27.when we go back into government, we will eliminate the deficit,
:31:28. > :31:31.reduce debt, and will ensure that is supervised
:31:32. > :31:33.independently by the Office And Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary
:31:34. > :31:51.to the Treasury, Seema Malhotra, Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You
:31:52. > :31:56.would balance current spending with revenue and borrow to invest. How
:31:57. > :32:00.does that differ from Mr Brown and Mr balls? You are right about there
:32:01. > :32:05.being two key parts to the new fiscal credibility were all. In a
:32:06. > :32:09.sense, this builds on very much where we have been before. It also
:32:10. > :32:15.responds to the criticisms that were made of Jaws -- George Osborne's
:32:16. > :32:20.this school charter where he was criticised for tying his own hands
:32:21. > :32:26.and not allowing for investment. -- fiscal charter. There are two key
:32:27. > :32:30.differences. It makes it more explicit, that there should be
:32:31. > :32:35.independent voices. We have said we want the OBR to be an independent
:32:36. > :32:40.voice around deficit reduction targets, and also reporting directly
:32:41. > :32:45.to Parliament. The second area is that we want to make sure there is
:32:46. > :32:50.the opportunity for investment and also, if there are difficult times,
:32:51. > :32:55.like we had in 2009, when monetary policy does not seem to be working,
:32:56. > :33:01.it gives an opportunity for fiscal policy to work alongside. It builds
:33:02. > :33:11.on but has two key differences. Mr Brown defended his rules as well
:33:12. > :33:20.when times got bad. It was described as being austerity light. This must
:33:21. > :33:26.be as well? It has been developed and the reason... It is not about
:33:27. > :33:31.austerity. It is a framework that will allow us to make spending and
:33:32. > :33:34.tax decisions in the future. It responds to the criticisms, the
:33:35. > :33:40.universal criticisms of George Osborne's this dull charter. --
:33:41. > :33:50.fiscal charter. It says we need to invest for the future. I understand
:33:51. > :33:54.all that. Mr Brown and Mr Balls also wanted to invest and that was
:33:55. > :34:04.criticised by the Shadow Chancellor as austerity light. If that were
:34:05. > :34:05.austerity light, this is steroid to -- night as well. We're in a
:34:06. > :34:14.situation where George -- night as well. We're in a
:34:15. > :34:22.blaming everyone but himself. -- this is austerity light as well.
:34:23. > :34:27.George Osborne's Member of Parliament for the Tory Party has
:34:28. > :34:30.said, what we have seen our warm words. He has talked about
:34:31. > :34:38.investment and an export led strategy. This is built on debts,
:34:39. > :34:45.household debt. How much is public investment? Around 30 billion, if
:34:46. > :34:50.you take into account the difference in spending. It is 34 billion in
:34:51. > :34:56.public spending at the moment. It should be much higher. How much more
:34:57. > :35:01.should it be? It should be higher. There is no excuse for what George
:35:02. > :35:07.Osborne has done. I am not asking about Mr Osborne. I am asking about
:35:08. > :35:12.your policy. 34 billion at the moment, rising to 40 billion by 20
:35:13. > :35:23.20. How much more would it be? It focuses on where it needs to be
:35:24. > :35:28.regarding GDP. You need to have a good level of investment so you are
:35:29. > :35:34.creating jobs for the future. What I am trying to work out is what this
:35:35. > :35:38.means in hard cash for investment, how big would investment be under a
:35:39. > :35:45.Labour government? It is clear that George Osborne has been cutting
:35:46. > :35:48.investment. It was around 3%, 3.5%, and is now 1.4% in terms of
:35:49. > :35:55.infrastructure. If you want jobs of the future coming through, if you
:35:56. > :35:58.want to turn around the situation where young people... By how much
:35:59. > :36:02.more would public investment increase under this formula? What we
:36:03. > :36:06.have said is you need to make sure that we have a balance of where the
:36:07. > :36:11.economy needs investment so we can get tax receipts and growth for the
:36:12. > :36:15.future. We had economists saying that George Osborne, if you talk
:36:16. > :36:21.about fairness in the future... I am here to talk about the labour policy
:36:22. > :36:25.and not that of George Osborne. Nor has there been balanced growth. If
:36:26. > :36:34.you want a balanced budget, you need to balance growth. Let's talk about
:36:35. > :36:37.labour. John McDonnell has talked about the difference between
:36:38. > :36:41.short-term and long-term investment. What is the difference? What we have
:36:42. > :36:45.said as she want to see investment that will see us having a big stake
:36:46. > :36:55.in the future. If you want to look at energy investment, you are
:36:56. > :37:02.talking out about -- about 20, 30 years. It is about supporting
:37:03. > :37:06.companies, entrepreneurs and supporting the long-term growth for
:37:07. > :37:09.the country as well. If you're talking about rail, roads and
:37:10. > :37:16.infrastructure, you will be aware, I am sure, of the reports that showed
:37:17. > :37:19.recently we have fewer buses than 2010, our rolling stock and trains
:37:20. > :37:25.are in poor condition, people are taking longer to get to work and the
:37:26. > :37:29.trains are more crowded. That should be a wake-up call to George Osborne
:37:30. > :37:33.he is not working in the interests of the British public and people are
:37:34. > :37:41.asking if the decisions are based on political interest and not on the
:37:42. > :37:43.country's future. You would balance current spending, day-to-day
:37:44. > :37:49.spending. At the moment there is a deficit. What would you cut to
:37:50. > :37:53.balance current spending? There are two things. The first is about
:37:54. > :37:58.spending decisions and the second about tax receipts. We are arguing
:37:59. > :38:02.that if you want to see tax receipts grow, George Osborne has seen them
:38:03. > :38:11.for in regard to productivity growth. What would you cut? We would
:38:12. > :38:16.want to see that growth increases in that you see an increase in tax
:38:17. > :38:23.receipts. You cannot spend if it is not within your means. What would
:38:24. > :38:25.you cut? You cannot spend if it is not within your means. What the
:38:26. > :38:30.announcement from the Labour Party is about is how we earn our way in
:38:31. > :38:32.the world and survived in a competitive economy. We will leave
:38:33. > :38:37.it there. Thank you very much. It's just gone 11:35am,
:38:38. > :38:39.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:40. > :38:42.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:43. > :38:45.minutes, the Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday
:38:46. > :38:49.Politics where you are. Could Brexit cost the capital
:38:50. > :38:55.billions of pounds in infrastructure As Labour politicians
:38:56. > :39:00.launch a last ditch attempt to uproot the Garden Bridge,
:39:01. > :39:04.we ask whether this multi-million pound project is a needless drain
:39:05. > :39:09.on the public purse. And, I am joined in
:39:10. > :39:11.the studio by the MPs whose constituencies fall on either
:39:12. > :39:15.side of that bridge. Mark Field, MP for Cities
:39:16. > :39:17.of London and Westminster. Kate Hoey is the Labour
:39:18. > :39:23.MP for Vauxhall. Now, before we take it
:39:24. > :39:27.to the bridge, we are going to dive right into the choppy
:39:28. > :39:30.waters of the EU. That has been a question
:39:31. > :39:33.dominating politics this week. Just 24 hours after condemning
:39:34. > :39:36.pro-EU campaigners for what he described
:39:37. > :39:39.as the scandalous treatment of British Chamber
:39:40. > :39:41.of Commerce director general, John Longworth,
:39:42. > :39:45.the mayor, Boris Johnson, was forced to issue
:39:46. > :39:47.his own apologies, after an e-mail emerged
:39:48. > :39:49.telling his senior staff It is not something
:39:50. > :39:58.I agree with and my staff, my team, have complete
:39:59. > :40:03.freedom to say what they want. Indeed they already are and have
:40:04. > :40:08.been for some days. So, they can campaign
:40:09. > :40:11.for whoever they like? As soon as I saw that thing last
:40:12. > :40:19.night, it ceased to be operative. It is, Mark Field,
:40:20. > :40:21.a convenient mess, isn't it? The message goes out
:40:22. > :40:22.and Boris retains Does he really not know
:40:23. > :40:27.what his chief of staff is doing? No, I would not be a tall
:40:28. > :40:34.fair on Boris on that. I think what it really comes down
:40:35. > :40:45.to is we are so obsessed in the political world
:40:46. > :40:47.by spin, by discipline, that we seem to think that no one
:40:48. > :40:50.should be able to have alternative I think it was Boris playing
:40:51. > :40:54.a little bit to the gallery in relation to the John
:40:55. > :40:56.Longworth situation. I have known John Longworth
:40:57. > :40:58.will sometimes and I think he was getting increasingly
:40:59. > :41:00.uneasy with the idea of, as he saw it, of having to take
:41:01. > :41:04.a neutral view on this issue. I have spoken to John over
:41:05. > :41:06.the last two or three months and it was clear to me
:41:07. > :41:09.he was definitely favouring Brexit, which was at odds
:41:10. > :41:11.with the official line We are talking about
:41:12. > :41:13.people's private lives. It was not just an
:41:14. > :41:16.edict on what should happen in the workplace,
:41:17. > :41:18.it was about people Should anyone ever be gagged
:41:19. > :41:21.in their private lives? That was the clear message
:41:22. > :41:24.in the original e-mail. Boris put it rightly
:41:25. > :41:28.very quickly to touch I take the view on this issue,
:41:29. > :41:32.clearly, the Government has decided we are allowing Cabinet ministers,
:41:33. > :41:35.people sitting around the Cabinet table, taking an entirely different
:41:36. > :41:40.view from the official government line, the line that was taken
:41:41. > :41:43.by civil servants on a day to I think we have a reasonable
:41:44. > :41:46.compromise here. There is a little bit
:41:47. > :41:49.of a storm in a teacup. To be fair to Boris,
:41:50. > :41:51.although I take a different view on this issue than he does,
:41:52. > :41:54.I think he has done the right thing by putting it
:41:55. > :41:56.to touch very quickly. Kate Hoey, should anyone be gagged
:41:57. > :41:59.in this important national debate? I think the referendum is different
:42:00. > :42:02.from general elections in the way At senior level certainly,
:42:03. > :42:05.they shouldn't be getting involved. The Boris being went out
:42:06. > :42:07.with all the details There was a whole big
:42:08. > :42:11.spiel of stuff and, in the end, it was tacked
:42:12. > :42:13.on to the advisers. I am quite sure Boris
:42:14. > :42:16.did not see that. I have been very critical
:42:17. > :42:20.of Boris on lots of things but, in this case, I'm sure
:42:21. > :42:23.he did not want this to happen. This is being decided
:42:24. > :42:33.across party politics, political parties are,
:42:34. > :42:35.on the whole, divided. The public really is going to feel
:42:36. > :42:38.they have the final say. I was one of the so-called
:42:39. > :42:44.81 Tory rebels. Kate and I were in the same voting
:42:45. > :42:48.lobby when it came to the debate in 2011 about the idea
:42:49. > :42:51.of having a referendum. They want information
:42:52. > :42:56.and it is up to them to decide. Boris Johnson refers
:42:57. > :42:58.to the Remain camp, your camp, I think this is a bit
:42:59. > :43:05.of a foolish thing to do, to be honest, to go
:43:06. > :43:07.on about Project Fear. The people who have wanted Britain
:43:08. > :43:16.to be out of the EU have had 40 years to come up with a plan
:43:17. > :43:20.and we still have no real For them to talk about Project Fear
:43:21. > :43:23.highlights the weaknesses There is clearly uncertainty,
:43:24. > :43:26.but there's just as much I think the idea that this
:43:27. > :43:31.is a great leap in the dark, at least if somebody says,
:43:32. > :43:35.we are jumping into a dark pit, we're jumping in with a huge
:43:36. > :43:37.big cushion of money Let's stay talking about money
:43:38. > :43:46.and staying with the European Union. When it comes to investment
:43:47. > :43:48.in the capital and its vast and expensive infrastructure,
:43:49. > :43:50.few institutions have proved as lucrative as the
:43:51. > :43:55.European Investment Bank. With Crossrail, schools,
:43:56. > :43:57.and the M25 expansion among others, all benefiting from
:43:58. > :44:01.the ?7 billion worth of funding invested over
:44:02. > :44:12.the last ten years, could the cost of Brexit be more
:44:13. > :44:15.than the capital can afford? What does this futuristic building
:44:16. > :44:18.in Luxembourg have to do with these That was the headquarters
:44:19. > :44:21.of the European Investment Bank. The rather anonymous institution has
:44:22. > :44:23.lent Croydon Council ?102 million to improve
:44:24. > :44:26.and open new schools. This is one of eight new classrooms
:44:27. > :44:33.that have been built to accommodate The school has been able to double
:44:34. > :44:44.in size due to that loan. We had a vision of what
:44:45. > :44:51.we wanted to do with the school which we couldn't afford
:44:52. > :44:54.as a school standing on our own, and having this work done and having
:44:55. > :44:58.the work paid for through Croydon has allowed us now
:44:59. > :45:00.to do additional work. And Croydon Council says it was over
:45:01. > :45:04.?7.5 million cheaper to borrow from the European Investment Bank
:45:05. > :45:06.than taking the usual local The European investment bank enabled
:45:07. > :45:14.us to get a lower rate of interest, it meant we can deliver the school
:45:15. > :45:17.places that we need for the children establishments whilst not
:45:18. > :45:20.putting an undue burden Loans from the European investment
:45:21. > :45:25.bank have also helped fund a range of transport projects
:45:26. > :45:28.in the capital, including the mayor's cycle superhighways,
:45:29. > :45:31.Heathrow terminal five, the widening of the M25,
:45:32. > :45:36.and a ?1.5 billion loan The Liberal Democrat
:45:37. > :45:42.mayoral candidate believes it is an important source of finance
:45:43. > :45:45.for London that could be lost The European investment
:45:46. > :45:51.bank is cheap borrowing for London's infrastructure
:45:52. > :45:54.and we have seen billions of pounds over recent years
:45:55. > :45:57.to help London keep growing and moving so it is really
:45:58. > :46:00.important for London to have access If we leave the European Union,
:46:01. > :46:07.all I can see is that our costs The European investment
:46:08. > :46:10.bank is owned by The UK Government owns a 16%
:46:11. > :46:15.share, the same as France Over the last decade it has provided
:46:16. > :46:22.over ?7 billion of investment for London, amounting to roughly 7%
:46:23. > :46:25.of capital spending in London Those that support leaving
:46:26. > :46:31.the EU argue that if London no longer have access
:46:32. > :46:33.to the European investment bank, All these projects could perfectly
:46:34. > :46:40.well have been financed elsewhere and the test of that
:46:41. > :46:46.is that the European Investment Bank in its charter has
:46:47. > :46:49.got to make loans So these are not soft loans or
:46:50. > :46:53.subsidised loans. They can always be provided
:46:54. > :46:59.elsewhere and it might be a rather good idea if we took our money out
:47:00. > :47:02.of the European Investment Bank and started our own European
:47:03. > :47:04.investment bank. And the money we have
:47:05. > :47:06.is 36 billion euros, quite a lot of money
:47:07. > :47:08.to do these good In 2009, Boris Johnson
:47:09. > :47:12.praised the European Investment Bank when it announced
:47:13. > :47:17.a substantial loan to the Crossrail project, but at last week's
:47:18. > :47:19.people's question time, a different view
:47:20. > :47:30.on European funding. They are actually deciding how to
:47:31. > :47:37.spend money in our country, that is the perverse thing. Would a Brexit
:47:38. > :47:42.cut off millions of pounds for key London projects, such as the
:47:43. > :47:47.improvement to Croydon schools? Or award for B better off by cutting
:47:48. > :47:55.out the European middleman. This will see children educated in
:47:56. > :48:00.proper classrooms, thanks to a unique loan from the European
:48:01. > :48:06.investment bank, it is good news for London, isn't it? I am delighted for
:48:07. > :48:10.that school, the money could have come from other sources but the most
:48:11. > :48:16.important thing is that something like 7 billion over ten years London
:48:17. > :48:23.has got from this investment fund, if we were to leave the EU our share
:48:24. > :48:28.of what we would be able to take out is ?39 billion. It is our money, it
:48:29. > :48:33.is not some new money that sprouted up in Brussels to be sent here. We
:48:34. > :48:38.would be able to, as the mayor said, we would be able to decide how to
:48:39. > :48:43.spend that money and very few schools have got this, it mainly
:48:44. > :48:47.goes to infrastructure projects. Which is why I referred to it as a
:48:48. > :48:51.unique loan but you say perhaps they should have taken the money from
:48:52. > :48:59.somewhere else. Why would they do that if it costs more money? Croydon
:49:00. > :49:08.saved over ?7 million by taking a loan from the European investment
:49:09. > :49:21.bank. The Government should be funding local schools, and I would
:49:22. > :49:27.imagine Mrs a PFI -- this is a PFI school, which in the end will cost
:49:28. > :49:33.more money. The basic principle of this, we give this huge amount of
:49:34. > :49:39.money, ?50 million a day, ?19 billion a year, we give to the EU.
:49:40. > :49:43.Let's stay with the European investment bank. Bear in mind for a
:49:44. > :49:49.moment that the daily loan rate, we looked at it today, they fluctuate
:49:50. > :50:03.but typically it is .8% cheaper to take a loan from the EIB than a
:50:04. > :50:08.local authority. It is a significant benefit here. That may not
:50:09. > :50:12.necessarily stay at that rate. Very few schools would be able to apply
:50:13. > :50:17.for it, and ultimately long-term if we are not in the EU we would have
:50:18. > :50:22.that money plus the money already in there and we would be able to spend
:50:23. > :50:28.that. We underwrite the banks nearly to the tune of ?40 million, the Lib
:50:29. > :50:32.Dem mayoral candidate says it is cheap money but in essence it is our
:50:33. > :50:40.money but we borrow it back with strings attached. It is fair that we
:50:41. > :50:47.are getting it because it is an investment bank at a national, super
:50:48. > :50:51.national level, at that rate. I think what William said is nonsense,
:50:52. > :50:58.we will get a better deal doing it that way. It puts a lie to one of
:50:59. > :51:04.the claims often made by the leave campaign is that somehow if we got
:51:05. > :51:08.out of the EU we would somehow get ?350 million a week back. The truth
:51:09. > :51:15.is this is one of the benefits we have from being in the EU. I accept
:51:16. > :51:22.the headline of ?350 million does not stack up to the reality. There
:51:23. > :51:28.is increasing hostility in much of the rest of the UK, London has had a
:51:29. > :51:32.very good deal. There was investment in Crossrail, but much of it from
:51:33. > :51:39.the central government grant, we had the Olympic Games in 2012, we want
:51:40. > :51:44.Crossrail now too. These projects will be much more difficult to claim
:51:45. > :51:51.within the capital city I think, given that hostility that is there.
:51:52. > :51:54.Let me just by all this down, specifically for London you said
:51:55. > :52:02.there is more to lose than to gain by stepping outside of the EIB in
:52:03. > :52:07.particular. I wouldn't be hysterical about it. Caroline has a political
:52:08. > :52:13.point to make about how disastrous it would be. I don't think it would
:52:14. > :52:18.be totally disastrous if we left. London is a great city, a lot of
:52:19. > :52:24.people want to invest and come into it. The world is much bigger than
:52:25. > :52:27.that 28 countries of the EU. Would there be any guarantee this money
:52:28. > :52:34.would still be available to London in the way it is now? We would have
:52:35. > :52:40.that money back. No, the UK would have it back. London is the capital
:52:41. > :52:45.city, that is recognised by everybody in the UK. It will always
:52:46. > :52:52.attract much more private investment than other places. I think this
:52:53. > :52:56.is... I'm not going to use the word scaremongering because actually Mark
:52:57. > :53:00.said it would not be a total disaster the weight of the
:53:01. > :53:05.politicians pointed out, but we do need to reflect overall that
:53:06. > :53:12.ultimately this is about us as elected representatives being able
:53:13. > :53:18.to decide... Funny you should mention elected representatives, it
:53:19. > :53:22.is very relevant. Last week opponents of the garden bridge,
:53:23. > :53:26.including a guest here Kate Hoey, made a last-ditch attempt to stop
:53:27. > :53:32.the multi-million pound project in its tracks. So how did she get on?
:53:33. > :53:38.It is three years since the garden bridge plans took root, but with
:53:39. > :53:43.allegations of a rigged procurement process, the project's path has not
:53:44. > :53:48.been a bed of roses but last November, after initially opposing
:53:49. > :53:52.the plans, Lambeth Council signalled their support for the bridge when 20
:53:53. > :53:56.of the ?60 million public investment was converted into a loan. That
:53:57. > :54:00.hasn't stopped local councillors responsible for the land on the
:54:01. > :54:04.south side of the bridge from voicing their opposition the scheme.
:54:05. > :54:08.We have been steadfast in our opinions about this bridge from the
:54:09. > :54:13.beginning, we have said it is in the wrong location, it shouldn't be
:54:14. > :54:17.publicly funded in any shape or form, it will dramatically change
:54:18. > :54:24.the south bank and its beauty. Last week, they along with Kate Hoey
:54:25. > :54:27.wrote this letter to the builders that owns the lease to the land on
:54:28. > :55:02.the South bank. It said: The garden bridge trust, who are
:55:03. > :55:06.responsible for overseeing the project, said they were confident of
:55:07. > :55:11.it being resolved. We have a number of conditions we need to discharge
:55:12. > :55:16.with Lambeth before we begin construction and we are working
:55:17. > :55:21.closely with local residents and other local businesses, making sure
:55:22. > :55:25.we address their concerns. Lambeth Council told us that the final few
:55:26. > :55:29.planning permissions are still to be discharged over the coming few weeks
:55:30. > :55:34.and its negotiations on the lease are still ongoing. With construction
:55:35. > :55:41.due to begin in the summer, are its opponents in the last chance saloon?
:55:42. > :55:46.Your letter to the leaseholder is a bit desperate, isn't it? In our last
:55:47. > :55:49.discussion you were talking about directly elected representatives and
:55:50. > :55:54.here you are asking an unelected body to make the final decision. The
:55:55. > :55:59.builders have a long-term lease on this land. Lambeth Council have got
:56:00. > :56:04.to agree that they could handed over to the garden bridge to build this
:56:05. > :56:08.big building on it. We are going through a whole series of things.
:56:09. > :56:12.The procurement policy of how it got to the stage it is has been
:56:13. > :56:16.shocking. The planning application and the weight has been handled,
:56:17. > :56:23.this week for example they have agreed to a small number of toilets,
:56:24. > :56:27.eight toilets when Clapham picture house 14 toilets. There's a whole
:56:28. > :56:32.series of things wrong with this. It has been badly handled and
:56:33. > :56:35.ultimately coin Street as the community builders with a lot of
:56:36. > :56:44.resident support will have the final say. The only real political
:56:45. > :56:48.opposition is hyper local. It is you, three ward members and two
:56:49. > :56:53.London Assembly members. Meanwhile the rest of the council, your own
:56:54. > :57:00.London mayoral candidate, they support it. The important people to
:57:01. > :57:04.me in this are the residents and my constituents who are going to have
:57:05. > :57:10.to put up with this, which is spoiling views of London, which cost
:57:11. > :57:17.?60 million of public money. That's not strictly true, is it? ?60
:57:18. > :57:23.million directly from George Osborne, ?30 million from Transport
:57:24. > :57:30.for London going to be paid back. The other side of the bridge lies in
:57:31. > :57:35.your constituency, and you are on the other side of the argument. It
:57:36. > :57:40.is a vanity project, it is not necessary for London, is it? One
:57:41. > :57:44.small point I would agree with the lady from Lambeth Council earlier
:57:45. > :57:54.on, in an ideal world do we need another bridge? I accept that point
:57:55. > :57:58.but this is a fantastic opportunity to showcase urban design and
:57:59. > :58:05.architecture, and for the whole landscaping that we are going to
:58:06. > :58:10.have. It will link up Temple, one of the most disused tube stations on
:58:11. > :58:14.the district line, and provide an opportunity for a more agreeable
:58:15. > :58:21.pedestrian crossing either side. On the finance side, it is an expensive
:58:22. > :58:27.project at ?175 million, 70% of that is being raised privately. We are
:58:28. > :58:31.talking about public money and it may seem like a small amount, the 10
:58:32. > :58:36.million that remains from Transport for London, but this is not a
:58:37. > :58:41.profitable financial venture, there will be a cost to Londoners every
:58:42. > :58:46.year going forwards. But it will be a terrific tourist attraction as
:58:47. > :58:52.well being of day-to-day use for Londoners. There are thousands of
:58:53. > :58:56.tourists going past there already. The concept may be wonderful, but it
:58:57. > :59:01.is in the wrong place. There is no reason when the country is facing
:59:02. > :59:07.cutbacks all over the place that ?60 million of public money is being
:59:08. > :59:14.spent on this. If coin Street builders allows this to go
:59:15. > :59:18.through... It hasn't got its planning permission yet anyway, and
:59:19. > :59:19.it is ruining the most wonderful views of St Paul's Cathedral and we
:59:20. > :59:23.are ridiculous to go down views of St Paul's Cathedral and we
:59:24. > :59:33.Now it is time for the rest news in 60 seconds.
:59:34. > :59:37.Former Smiths front man Morrissey could make a late bid for Mayor of
:59:38. > :59:41.London, he said to be considering very seriously an invitation to
:59:42. > :59:47.stand by the animal welfare party. The night tube moved a step closer
:59:48. > :59:50.after members of the train drivers union voted to accept a new pay
:59:51. > :59:54.deal. Sadiq Khan unveiled his mayoral
:59:55. > :00:02.manifesto this week, promising to name and shame landlords convicted
:00:03. > :00:08.of offences. Conservative candidate Zac Goldsmith
:00:09. > :00:11.said Sadiq Khan's plans don't survive even the most gentle
:00:12. > :00:16.scrutiny. Boris Johnson's controversial super
:00:17. > :00:26.cycle highway will open next month along the embankment. The route was
:00:27. > :00:29.described by the Mayor as Crossrail for cyclists. Construction work on
:00:30. > :00:30.the western section between Parliament Square and Paddington
:00:31. > :00:43.continues. You enjoyed that film! Just as well
:00:44. > :00:51.your viewers are not hearing what we said. The appeal to private renters,
:00:52. > :00:56.that could be really powerful. They are also less likely to vote, aren't
:00:57. > :01:00.they? There is a worry about a lot of people in London who do not vote.
:01:01. > :01:04.That is something to concern all of us as political parties. You are
:01:05. > :01:08.right. It is such an important issue, housing. All the political
:01:09. > :01:13.parties in their manifestos have lots about housing. I do think this
:01:14. > :01:18.is something that cross-party we must work together. Does Zac
:01:19. > :01:26.Goldsmith has something for private renters? Siddique Khan is right to
:01:27. > :01:34.identify private renters are the biggest losers. We do need
:01:35. > :01:38.intermediate housing. We need to recognise there are a lot of people
:01:39. > :01:43.who will be renters and part renters for years to come. Thank you very
:01:44. > :01:48.much indeed. Now it is back to Andrew.
:01:49. > :01:51.So, what's in store for us this week?
:01:52. > :01:53.Well, just the small matter of George Osborne's Budget.
:01:54. > :01:56.Another EU summit and the political diary's jam-packed with
:01:57. > :02:03.Let's hear more from our Political Panel, and we're also
:02:04. > :02:09.joined by the Conservative MP, David Davis.
:02:10. > :02:19.100 days to go. Where are we at the moment in this campaign? Just on
:02:20. > :02:25.polling, we are balanced with a large number of uncertainty. What
:02:26. > :02:30.has happened in the last few weeks has been dominated with the flow of
:02:31. > :02:34.events. Turkey has dominated peoples minds and that is what will happen
:02:35. > :02:40.for most of the next 100 days. Events like that will force people.
:02:41. > :02:45.Turkey is about security and immigration and so on. That is a
:02:46. > :02:48.potential backdrop. If the Turkish deal begins to fall apart and the
:02:49. > :02:53.migrant crisis continues, which almost certainly it will, that is
:02:54. > :02:56.the kind of backdrop that is probably more helpful to your side
:02:57. > :03:01.of the referendum than the other one? It is not an accident, a
:03:02. > :03:07.structural outcome of the Schengen zone and the weakness of the eastern
:03:08. > :03:12.border. On other fronts, the financial front, you have the Euro
:03:13. > :03:16.structurally driving events. It seems to me the balance of
:03:17. > :03:23.probabilities in the next 100 days will be those sorts of things are
:03:24. > :03:30.actually going to favour a Brexit. For years and years, Mr Cameron, Mr
:03:31. > :03:37.Osborne, Mr Hague and so on have been spewing out Eurosceptic
:03:38. > :03:42.dialogue. Now they praise our membership of the EU! We cannot
:03:43. > :03:46.survive without the EU. Doesn't that risk jarring a bit with the
:03:47. > :03:51.electorate? I think it is absurd. We have a situation where the Prime
:03:52. > :03:56.Minister gave a big speech at Chatham House. He said can if you
:03:57. > :04:01.could not get the reforms, he would consider the alternative. Everything
:04:02. > :04:05.was on the table. In two options can he would consider campaigning to
:04:06. > :04:11.vote to leave. Now we are told if we left Britain, virtually
:04:12. > :04:16.catastrophic. Plagues of locusts and we will probably all die. You cannot
:04:17. > :04:20.say in November I will leave if I do not get my reforms and now say our
:04:21. > :04:24.country will collapse. That cannot be true, otherwise he would have
:04:25. > :04:31.been willing to leave the EU and risk economic collapse. I think it
:04:32. > :04:38.is scare tactics by Project Fear and it has been very damaging. People
:04:39. > :04:42.like me want Brexit but it is very damaging to the Conservative Party
:04:43. > :04:53.and unity. Howdy you see the campaign going? It has been largely
:04:54. > :05:02.dominated by the Vote Remain rather than the Vote Leave. Vote Remain
:05:03. > :05:09.have chucked a lot at Vote Leave. Many reports have been pumped out.
:05:10. > :05:13.They are in danger of using up all of that arguments for the race has
:05:14. > :05:19.got going. It does look fairly balanced. Some polling has suggested
:05:20. > :05:25.it leans a little towards the remaining side. Whenever people like
:05:26. > :05:29.David or others say it is all Project Fear, for the silent group
:05:30. > :05:32.of people and families with children who are not paying that much
:05:33. > :05:35.attention, if you talk about fear at all, there is a slight sense of
:05:36. > :05:41.maybe there is something to be fearful of after all. It works a
:05:42. > :05:45.bit, I am sure it does, but for how long question that when the Danes
:05:46. > :05:49.had their Euro referendum, the same thing happened. Eventually people
:05:50. > :05:57.were going in for the mockery, as you were, saying we're going to have
:05:58. > :06:00.a 17 foot high fence between us and Germany. That destroyed the campaign
:06:01. > :06:05.for the one thing that has happened is the credibility of the Government
:06:06. > :06:10.are doing has slipped quite a lot in the last few weeks and it is partly
:06:11. > :06:13.because of the exaggeration. You have two friends getting slightly
:06:14. > :06:18.nervous of it, slightly afraid of it, worrying about the risks. On the
:06:19. > :06:23.other hand, they are starting to say, do we really believe all this
:06:24. > :06:29.nonsense? That is the undetermined fact. It has not been a reasonable
:06:30. > :06:35.debate about facts. Is it too early to see who has been nudging ahead?
:06:36. > :06:43.What is significant is that David Davis has a tie in the colours of
:06:44. > :06:54.Vote Leave. The other one is a green tie with black writing. This is an
:06:55. > :06:56.issue of taste. I think what we are learning is the Brexit side is
:06:57. > :07:01.winning skirmishes. The reason they are doing that is because they are
:07:02. > :07:05.an insurgency. With an insurgency, it has six Cabinet ministers in it
:07:06. > :07:11.and that is exciting. You will clearly set the news agenda. The
:07:12. > :07:15.battle in the overall war, you would assume that Remain is nudging ahead
:07:16. > :07:22.because the polling after the Prime Minister Pozner Diehl said voters
:07:23. > :07:27.were impressed by that. Vote Leave have an incredibly simple and
:07:28. > :07:31.incredibly powerful message. Take back control. You may well find that
:07:32. > :07:39.message is so simple and so clear that that might achieve a cut
:07:40. > :07:44.through. Is the queen on the Brexit side or not? I do not think anyone
:07:45. > :07:49.is questioning she is a Eurosceptic. Even at the palace they are not
:07:50. > :07:53.disputing that and the complaint may have made about the story in the Sun
:07:54. > :07:56.newspaper last week. People have said she has in making these
:07:57. > :07:59.comments for some time. Cabinet ministers have told me they do
:08:00. > :08:08.similar things. This woman puts the mother bubble things -- the
:08:09. > :08:14.Commonwealth above all things. She defends the laws and traditions of
:08:15. > :08:20.this country as well. Not Brexit necessarily but Eurosceptic? That
:08:21. > :08:27.seems incontrovertible. The palace and Number 10 are not disputing that
:08:28. > :08:31.at all. It is great to have the Queen onside but I would like her to
:08:32. > :08:43.have one vote. She does not have a vote at all. Is this more within the
:08:44. > :08:50.Tory family question is it more bitter than you thought? Will it get
:08:51. > :08:54.more bitter as time goes on? Even if Mr Cameron wins, he may find it hard
:08:55. > :08:59.to put it together again. I do not think so. It is robust, pretty
:09:00. > :09:06.robust. To some extent he sets the tone himself if he is rude about
:09:07. > :09:12.Boris, there is a backlash. Some say he regards Boris in the same way he
:09:13. > :09:22.regards Ed Balls. A scan and he cannot stop picking at it. This is
:09:23. > :09:27.outside the house and takes quite a lot of poison out of it. It is
:09:28. > :09:33.robust and fears. People are taking it incredibly seriously. How is
:09:34. > :09:37.Boris doing? Pretty well. What is his real value? He draws attention
:09:38. > :09:42.to the issue and adds credibility to it. He makes the odd mistake and
:09:43. > :09:51.everyone forgives him for it. On balance, very useful and important.
:09:52. > :09:56.What about cross-party appeal? The Government began by emphasising the
:09:57. > :10:00.security implications of staying in, saying we needed to stay because of
:10:01. > :10:04.security. I think they have found that a tough argument because people
:10:05. > :10:08.do not associate EU with security. They will move on economic arguments
:10:09. > :10:13.now. The problem with economic arguments is they are nowhere near
:10:14. > :10:19.well-defined as clear and cut -- clearly cut as they were in 1975.
:10:20. > :10:25.They want to make a big picture argument. David Cameron got this
:10:26. > :10:31.deal on the Friday in Brussels. At 7:30pm, George Osborne was on the
:10:32. > :10:35.today programme making a massive destiny economic security argument.
:10:36. > :10:39.They know you cannot focus on the nitty-gritty of that. You have to
:10:40. > :10:43.make the big picture argument. It is potentially a mixed picture. David
:10:44. > :10:48.was saying earlier there is a major crisis in the Eurozone in the next
:10:49. > :10:52.few months, then that could be difficult. You have the opt out full
:10:53. > :10:57.stop when you are in government, there was an opt out from Britain
:10:58. > :11:06.having to join the euro. There is a major crisis. Two European summits
:11:07. > :11:10.in one week. That was not the case when we voted in 1975. The common
:11:11. > :11:16.market was seen as a successful, economic unit that we needed to
:11:17. > :11:22.join. The atmospherics are very different. For 20 years, it was the
:11:23. > :11:29.most successful economic unit, until about the early 90s. Since then we
:11:30. > :11:35.have got nothing. That is what people are seeing. We are moving on
:11:36. > :11:38.to the economic arguments. We have the budget which frames it. They're
:11:39. > :11:43.going to see Barack Obama coming here towards the end of April.
:11:44. > :11:52.You'll be making the argument and doing several events, as I
:11:53. > :11:56.understand it. He owes him a favour. Basically, what you're going to get
:11:57. > :12:00.as a return to the security argument. Returning to where we
:12:01. > :12:05.started this debate, you have got a situation where events will often
:12:06. > :12:08.favoured the out side but the control and ability to stage managed
:12:09. > :12:16.different moments is with the governments. -- the Government. They
:12:17. > :12:23.published a letter with generals on it and have not signed it. One of
:12:24. > :12:28.the generals came out this morning and said he was supporting the
:12:29. > :12:33.Government. It is from the Scottish referendum playbook. That worked. We
:12:34. > :12:37.saw Nicola Sturgeon struggling an hour ago, to explain basic, fiscal
:12:38. > :12:41.point about an independent Scotland but that is why Scotland voted to
:12:42. > :12:46.stay in the UK. You do not know whether the Government will have
:12:47. > :12:52.that element of certainty. As things stand at the moment, are we in or
:12:53. > :12:56.out? The last time I was here I cautiously gave numbers. I would
:12:57. > :13:05.still cautiously stay in. Depressingly I feel we would remain.
:13:06. > :13:09.In with a suppose so vote. None of you overly enthusiast take. We are
:13:10. > :13:17.right on a knife edge in terms of public opinions. We live in a world
:13:18. > :13:21.where the consensus opinion these days is usually wrong.
:13:22. > :13:25.I'll be back next week, same time same place.
:13:26. > :14:03.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:04. > :14:09.dedicated to the world of country music.
:14:10. > :14:13.Featuring live performances from the Country To Country Festival,
:14:14. > :14:16.as well as your favourite Radio 2 presenters.
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