:00:38. > :00:43.Jeremy Corbyn struggles to get a grip on the turmoil inside his
:00:44. > :00:46.party after Ken Livingstone's comments on Hitler and Zionism.
:00:47. > :00:48.But will the Labour leader's latest anti-semitism review draw
:00:49. > :00:56.Despite demands he should be booted out, Mr Livingstone insists he'll
:00:57. > :00:59.fight to stay in the party, and refuses to apologise for saying
:01:00. > :01:06.We'll discuss the implications for Labour and its leader.
:01:07. > :01:11.The row comes just days before Thursday's elections across the UK.
:01:12. > :01:16.We'll hear from Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and
:01:17. > :01:27.In the capital - with four days to go until Londoners decide,
:01:28. > :01:37.The Conservative candidate Zac Goldsmith will be here to set out
:01:38. > :01:39.why he should be London now. -- mayor.
:01:40. > :01:42.And with me for the duration - Nick Watt, Janan Ganesh
:01:43. > :01:45.They'll all be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.
:01:46. > :01:49.This time last week Jeremy Corbyn was in a pretty good place.
:01:50. > :01:50.He'd put in a decent performance at PMQs,
:01:51. > :01:57.the Tories were ripping themselves apart over the EU referendum
:01:58. > :02:00.and any Labour rows seemed small beer in comparison.
:02:01. > :02:02.But that was before the Guido Fawkes political blog uncovered
:02:03. > :02:08.anti-Semitic tweets from a novice Labour backbencher called Naz Shah -
:02:09. > :02:13.made before she was an MP - and Ken Livingstone called Hitler
:02:14. > :02:18.in her aid - perhaps not the most helpful of modern
:02:19. > :02:20.political interventions - leading to his suspension,
:02:21. > :02:23.along with Ms Shah's from the party and calls for him to be
:02:24. > :02:27.So what might have been no more than a little local difficulty has
:02:28. > :02:30.become the biggest crisis in Mr Corbyn's leadership.
:02:31. > :02:35.Here's Ellie with a reminder of how the story unfolded.
:02:36. > :02:38.I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset
:02:39. > :02:42.and hurt to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that.
:02:43. > :02:50.Naz Shah was apologising for this - a Facebook post that suggested
:02:51. > :02:56.She'd shared it and other offensive comments two years ago.
:02:57. > :02:59.On Tuesday afternoon she resigned as Parliamentary Private Secretary
:03:00. > :03:01.to the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.
:03:02. > :03:08.The next day a fellow shadow frontbencher was calling
:03:09. > :03:13.There has to be a suspension and an investigation when something
:03:14. > :03:16.like this occurs, because it is so serious and it does have such
:03:17. > :03:19.a knock on effect on people outside of parliament, in the real world.
:03:20. > :03:23.Moments later, the Prime Minister waded in.
:03:24. > :03:26.The fact that, frankly, we have a Labour Member
:03:27. > :03:28.of Parliament, with the Labour Whip, who made remarks about
:03:29. > :03:32.the transportation of people from Israel to America and talked
:03:33. > :03:35.about "a solution", and is still in receipt of the Labour whip
:03:36. > :03:40.After hours of speculation, Naz Shah, who was only elected
:03:41. > :03:41.last year, was suspended from the Labour Party
:03:42. > :03:48.But if the Labour leadership had hoped it would draw
:03:49. > :03:50.a line under the issue, they were sorely disappointed,
:03:51. > :03:52.because the next day, this happened...
:03:53. > :03:54.You didn't find that to be anti-Semitic?
:03:55. > :04:01.You have to remember, when Hitler won his election
:04:02. > :04:04.in 1932 his policy then was Jews should be moved to Israel.
:04:05. > :04:06.He was supporting Zionism, before he went mad and ended up
:04:07. > :04:15.You Nazi apologist, you Nazi apologisist.
:04:16. > :04:16.Rewriting history, rewriting history!
:04:17. > :04:22.Go back and check what Hitler did, go back and check what Hitler did.
:04:23. > :04:25.There was a book called Mein Kampf, you obviously haven't heard of it.
:04:26. > :04:28.Ken Livingstone was on the phone to another radio station
:04:29. > :04:31.when he got interrupted by the Labour MP John Mann.
:04:32. > :04:34.Watched by most of the country's media, they took it inside
:04:35. > :04:38.and continued their interesting difference of opinion
:04:39. > :04:44.You dare say, you dare say Hitler supported Zionism.
:04:45. > :04:48.I think you've lost it, Mr Livingstone.
:04:49. > :04:54.It's a deliberate, calculated attempt to cause problems,
:04:55. > :05:00.You certainly shouldn't be an Labour's National Executive.
:05:01. > :05:04.I've not said Hitler was a Zionist, what I said was his policy in ' 2
:05:05. > :05:05.was to deport Germany's Jews to Israel.
:05:06. > :05:10.John Mann was called to the Chief Whip's office for that
:05:11. > :05:13.and told he shouldn't have big rows on the telly.
:05:14. > :05:17.Other MPs voiced their opinion in Parliament instead.
:05:18. > :05:22.Anti-Semitism is wrong, full stop, end of story.
:05:23. > :05:25.I am sick and tired of people trying to explain it away -
:05:26. > :05:28.and yes - I'm talking to you, Ken Livingstone.
:05:29. > :05:30.Less than an hour later Ken Livingstone was suspended
:05:31. > :05:33.from the Labour Party, and chased by the media.
:05:34. > :05:35.Do you want to apologise for causing any offence?
:05:36. > :05:43.While Ken was indisposed, Jeremy Corbyn was trying not to let
:05:44. > :05:47.the issue occupy his local election campaigning, even if he had been
:05:48. > :05:51.forced to suspend one of his closest allies.
:05:52. > :05:54.It's not a crisis, there is no crisis.
:05:55. > :05:57.Where there is any racism in the party, it will be dealt with,
:05:58. > :06:02.I have been an anti-racist campaigner all my life.
:06:03. > :06:07.I suspect that much of this criticism, that you're saying
:06:08. > :06:10.about a crisis in the party, actually comes from those
:06:11. > :06:13.who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party at local level.
:06:14. > :06:15.But it has been a damaging week for Labour, whose leadership
:06:16. > :06:17.promised to get a grip on anti-Semitism.
:06:18. > :06:21.Ken Livingstone insisted he had nothing more to say.
:06:22. > :06:24.I've got to do the washing now, doing some work on the pond,
:06:25. > :06:34.Well, Ken Livingstone didn't stay quiet for long.
:06:35. > :06:37.In fact yesterday morning he appeared on the London radio
:06:38. > :06:46.After the broadcast, he had this to say to
:06:47. > :06:49.If people have been offended, I'm really sorry about that.
:06:50. > :06:51.But they're not offended because I said the truth,
:06:52. > :06:54.exactly the same thing as the Prime Minister of Israel said
:06:55. > :06:56.48 hours earlier, they've been offended by the scrutiny
:06:57. > :07:00.of embittered old Blairite MPs stirring up all these
:07:01. > :07:04.accusations of anti-Semitism, when I said on the programme 80
:07:05. > :07:06.Labour Party Jewish members have a letter in the Guardian
:07:07. > :07:08.today saying they've never experienced anti-Semitism
:07:09. > :07:10.We've had a handful of people who have said things
:07:11. > :07:15.They have been suspended or expelled immediately by Jeremy.
:07:16. > :07:21.It is filled with people campaigning against racism and anti-Semitism.
:07:22. > :07:24.Speaking on BBC One earlier this morning,
:07:25. > :07:27.the new Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Mark Regev,
:07:28. > :07:29.said a line has been crossed in the anti-semitism row
:07:30. > :07:36.Of course people have the right to criticise the government of Israel -
:07:37. > :07:44.If you follow the very vigorous public debates
:07:45. > :07:46.we have in my country, you'll know that every
:07:47. > :07:48.government position is open to debate in the parliament,
:07:49. > :07:51.in the press, in a very, very robust civil society.
:07:52. > :07:52.It's not about criticising Israel, it's about demonising
:07:53. > :07:56.The comments we've heard over the last two or three weeks
:07:57. > :08:00.that were made public, it has nothing to do
:08:01. > :08:03.with criticising this or that particular Israeli policy -
:08:04. > :08:06.it's demonising and a vilification of my country, and its
:08:07. > :08:15.But Jeremy Corbyn's close ally Diane Abbott told Andrew Marr
:08:16. > :08:19.that Labour doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism.
:08:20. > :08:24.The reality is that there have been 12 for incidents in the period
:08:25. > :08:26.when Jeremy's leader, and some of those remarks predate
:08:27. > :08:30.200,000 people have joined the party.
:08:31. > :08:36.What is your message to him now should he apologise properly?
:08:37. > :08:38.Have you ever known Ken apologise for anything?
:08:39. > :08:41.No, but this might be the time to start!
:08:42. > :08:44.Ken's remarks were extremely offensive.
:08:45. > :08:47.He was suspended within hours, there's going to be an investigation
:08:48. > :08:55.and the party will decide what happens to Ken.
:08:56. > :08:59.We did ask the Labour Party for an interview with someone
:09:00. > :09:02.from the Shadow Cabinet, but no one was available.
:09:03. > :09:04.We're joined now from Exeter by the former Labour culture
:09:05. > :09:19.Welcome to the programme. In your view how big a problem does Labour
:09:20. > :09:23.have with anti-Semitism? Well, in a week where the Conservatives are
:09:24. > :09:25.doing terrible damage to our education system, the National
:09:26. > :09:29.Health Service and are themselves apart on Europe, I would not want to
:09:30. > :09:33.be on your programme on Sunday talking about this. In a way I agree
:09:34. > :09:36.with Diane Abbott, I don't think we have a massive problem but the way
:09:37. > :09:40.we have mishandled this whole crisis, which has been going on for
:09:41. > :09:44.weeks, although Ken Livingstone has done his best to make it worse, the
:09:45. > :09:51.way we have handled the crisis has made it seem worse than it is. What
:09:52. > :09:54.do you make of Ken Livingstone's claim this is just basically a group
:09:55. > :09:57.of embittered old Blairite MPs trying to undermine the new order?
:09:58. > :10:03.I've seen you would include you in that.
:10:04. > :10:10.One of the first people to call for Ken Livingstone to leave the party
:10:11. > :10:14.was John Lassman, the head of Momentum, on the hard left. I think
:10:15. > :10:19.the popular left-wing commentator Owen Jones was also very quick to
:10:20. > :10:26.call for Ken Livingstone's resignation so to try to describe
:10:27. > :10:31.this as some Blairite... , it looks more like some left on left battle.
:10:32. > :10:35.I am increasingly of the view Ken Livingstone is a Conservative Party
:10:36. > :10:40.spy who has been planted in the Labour Party and has now emerged to
:10:41. > :10:43.do as much damage as he possibly can to the Labour Party. That is
:10:44. > :10:48.certainly the view of my loyal Labour Party members and activists
:10:49. > :10:52.and voters who came up to me asking what was going on. They were
:10:53. > :10:56.outraged by his comments and defeat comes back into the party, they
:10:57. > :11:00.won't vote for the party. Jeremy has finally gripped it this week with
:11:01. > :11:10.the inquiry but we have got to act quickly and decisively. Has Jeremy
:11:11. > :11:13.Corbyn let it drag on? There have been very sensible voices across the
:11:14. > :11:18.political spectrum in the Labour Party who, for several weeks if not
:11:19. > :11:21.months, have been raising concerns about this and calling for quite
:11:22. > :11:25.simple and sensible solutions to wait. I think if they had been
:11:26. > :11:35.listened to earlier, we could have nipped this problem in the bud. I
:11:36. > :11:40.hope it has now been gripped but it will be judged on what we do.
:11:41. > :11:44.Parties are judged on what they do, not what they say. The leadership
:11:45. > :11:51.have said all the right things, we now need to see action. What is the
:11:52. > :11:56.difference between Ken Livingstone's attitude to Israel and the Jews and
:11:57. > :12:02.Jeremy Corbyn's attitude to Israel and the Jews? I'm not quite sure I'm
:12:03. > :12:06.qualified to comment on either of their attitudes to Israel and the
:12:07. > :12:11.Jews. All I know is someone who has been a very strong friend of
:12:12. > :12:16.Palestine, a supporter of the two state solution, the Labour Party has
:12:17. > :12:19.a proud tradition of believing and supporting Israel as a state with
:12:20. > :12:24.the right to exist but I think there is a problem on parts of the left.
:12:25. > :12:32.They don't seem to recognise where criticism... Legitimate criticism
:12:33. > :12:37.crosses over to hatred for Israel and anti-Semitism. The Labour Party
:12:38. > :12:42.supports absolutely Israel's right to exist. We always have and I hope
:12:43. > :12:46.we always will. We also support a Palestinian state and if we allow
:12:47. > :12:50.ourselves to be diverted from that sensible position which is held by
:12:51. > :12:55.all progressives all over the world, that will be a very dangerous path
:12:56. > :12:59.in my view. Are you clear in your mind that Ken Livingstone and Jeremy
:13:00. > :13:06.Corbyn support Israel's right to exist? I cannot speak for them, I
:13:07. > :13:11.can just speak for myself. I am not inside their brains and I think
:13:12. > :13:16.anybody who tried to get inside Ken Livingstone's brain would find that
:13:17. > :13:22.a very challenging process. So you are not sure your leaders support
:13:23. > :13:27.Israel's right to exist? The Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn I am sure
:13:28. > :13:30.100% support Israel's right to exist, but these are questions the
:13:31. > :13:35.leader can speak for on behalf of himself. The chance would be a nice
:13:36. > :13:48.thing but we are grateful to speak to you. In your view, I know there
:13:49. > :13:53.is due process to follow, should Ken Livingstone be rejected from the
:13:54. > :13:57.Labour Party? Countless Labour Party members and supporters came up to me
:13:58. > :14:01.on the streets of Exeter yesterday where we are fighting very important
:14:02. > :14:09.and tough local council elections on Thursday to say that if he came
:14:10. > :14:13.back, they wouldn't vote for us If he was brought back, what would be
:14:14. > :14:19.the reaction amongst your colleagues? I think they would be
:14:20. > :14:22.dismayed. There is genuine anger about the damage this has done at a
:14:23. > :14:28.time when the Conservatives should be on the ropes. We should be 2 %
:14:29. > :14:36.ahead in the opinion polls, we are behind, facing very difficult local
:14:37. > :14:40.elections. We are not being an effective opposition because the
:14:41. > :14:44.talk is all about turmoil in Labour. Labour people are furious about
:14:45. > :14:47.that, they want the leadership to get a grip, they want to be an
:14:48. > :14:52.effective opposition and they want to make sure we win the next
:14:53. > :14:58.election and the elections across the UK and in London. Thanks for
:14:59. > :15:05.joining us. Apologies for the quality of the sound. Nick Watt how
:15:06. > :15:10.much is this being used by those opposed to Jeremy Corbyn to
:15:11. > :15:14.undermine his leadership? Yes, certainly the majority of the PLP
:15:15. > :15:19.don't support his leadership. A significant number of them would
:15:20. > :15:23.like to get him out, hope to do so after the European referendum. That
:15:24. > :15:26.had appeared to go away and now we have this crisis so maybe it will
:15:27. > :15:30.come back but I think those people who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn
:15:31. > :15:36.are not rubbing their hands and saying doesn't this make him look
:15:37. > :15:39.awful. They are, as most people in the Labour Party are, horrified by
:15:40. > :15:43.what this makes the Labour Party look like to the electorate as a
:15:44. > :15:48.whole and would like to deal with it. If you have two senior figures
:15:49. > :15:52.running after each other on stairways, whatever the cause, that
:15:53. > :15:57.looks dreadful for voters but then the issue you are talking about is
:15:58. > :16:01.supremely sensitive issue of anti-Semitism and the people I talk
:16:02. > :16:08.to who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn just hate what is going and
:16:09. > :16:12.feel that it is very dangerous and sensitive territory for the Labour
:16:13. > :16:15.Party. Where does it go from here? It depends whether the party decides
:16:16. > :16:22.this is just an embarrassment that can be got over. This is when Jeremy
:16:23. > :16:26.Corbyn's leadership stopped being funny, it is serious and it is not
:16:27. > :16:31.an accident or the mistake of judgment that meant he didn't get
:16:32. > :16:35.rid of Ken Livingstone immediately. They are very old allies, they go
:16:36. > :16:39.back a long way and you have to understand that this juncture of
:16:40. > :16:46.reality, the perception is so confused. I started my life on the
:16:47. > :16:51.Trotskyist left. I knew people, in fact I was in Hornsea when Jeremy
:16:52. > :16:56.Corbyn was on the council there These people socialise with each
:16:57. > :17:01.other, marry each other, they never go outside of their very closed self
:17:02. > :17:08.referring political activist circle. So that picture that Jeremy Corbyn's
:17:09. > :17:13.first white painted of him standing over a photocopier eating baked
:17:14. > :17:16.beans, we all knew that person in the 1970s. These people live within
:17:17. > :17:22.their closed political frame of reference, that's why there was this
:17:23. > :17:27.horrendous misunderstanding of the significance of what Ken Livingstone
:17:28. > :17:31.had done and said. When they called John Mann in, they insisted the
:17:32. > :17:35.whip's office called him in to be disciplined as if there was some
:17:36. > :17:39.kind of moral equivalence between what Ken Livingstone had said and
:17:40. > :17:42.what John Mann had said in reprimanding him, that is another
:17:43. > :17:49.reflection of how out of touch they are. People will wonder why the
:17:50. > :17:55.Labour Party, which has a long historic track record of fighting
:17:56. > :18:00.racism, introduced legislation going way back to the 1960s on something
:18:01. > :18:07.like this, why does it now have to have an investigation into racism
:18:08. > :18:11.and a code of conduct on racism Because they have at the very least
:18:12. > :18:15.turned a blind eye to this kind of behaviour, I would imagine for about
:18:16. > :18:19.30 years now. I'm only surprised that other people are surprised by
:18:20. > :18:26.this incident. In the 1980s people like Ken Livingstone were giving
:18:27. > :18:30.views not just on Zionism but on the foreign policy issues that were
:18:31. > :18:34.strident to say the least. When Frank Dobson was installed rather
:18:35. > :18:44.than Ken Livingstone as London mayoral candidate, a huge part of
:18:45. > :18:51.the soft left took Ken's side, now we have this disproportionate
:18:52. > :18:55.punishment of John Mann versus Ken. For a pattern of my lifetime there
:18:56. > :18:57.is an indulgence towards this behaviour and the only surprised
:18:58. > :19:02.that it has taken this amount of time for it to manifest in a crystal
:19:03. > :19:07.clear crisis which I imagine makes the average swing voter look upon
:19:08. > :19:13.Labour as something unpalatable Will it have an effect on Thursday's
:19:14. > :19:17.elections? Sadiq Khan is nervous it will have an effect on him as the
:19:18. > :19:22.candidate for London mayor. He nominated Jeremy Corbyn but has done
:19:23. > :19:27.a good job of distancing himself from him. And he was one of the
:19:28. > :19:33.first to criticise him. He did it immediately. He is nervous but it is
:19:34. > :19:37.probably too late to affect the campaign. OK.
:19:38. > :19:40.After their disastrous results in last year's General Election
:19:41. > :19:42.the Liberal Democrats are hoping for some better luck this week.
:19:43. > :19:45.Their leader, Tim Farron, says the local elections are utterly
:19:46. > :19:46.critical for the party's "survival, revival and rebirth",
:19:47. > :19:49.as they go in defending just over 300 seats in England.
:19:50. > :19:52.But has Mr Farron's leadership over the past year made any difference
:19:53. > :19:58.The last general election left the party in a sorry state,
:19:59. > :20:02.going from 57 MPs down to a measly eight.
:20:03. > :20:04.The result caused former leader Nick Clegg to resign the very
:20:05. > :20:08.next day, triggering a party leadership election.
:20:09. > :20:12.Two candidates went head-to-head - the then Party President Tim Farron
:20:13. > :20:18.and former Care Minister Norman Lamb.
:20:19. > :20:27.I am up for this, you are up for this, I am optimistic
:20:28. > :20:31.but it will take hard work and bloody mindedness.
:20:32. > :20:34.Over the last year, it's been an uphill struggle for Mr Farron,
:20:35. > :20:37.having to prove to the political classes that, even with eight MPs,
:20:38. > :20:39.his party is still a force to be reckoned with.
:20:40. > :20:41.Although the Lib Dems successfully used their hundred-odd peers
:20:42. > :20:52.to defeat the Government in the Lords over tax credits, trade
:20:53. > :20:55.union reform and child refugees,
:20:56. > :20:57.Lord Rennard's resignation from the party executive
:20:58. > :20:59.and the legal action over the election of MP
:21:00. > :21:04.Alistair Carmichael only made the journey more challenging.
:21:05. > :21:07.And next week, Mr Farron will once again be put
:21:08. > :21:25.Both the big parties are polling badly, it couldn't be a better time
:21:26. > :21:35.for a Lib Dem could -- come back, could there? You have summed it up
:21:36. > :21:39.very nicely. The general election result last May was obviously
:21:40. > :21:44.devastating, and I am going to argue it was devastating for the country
:21:45. > :21:50.as it was for the Liberal Democrats. You think of these issues going on
:21:51. > :21:53.at the moment, the attack on junior doctors, the Balkanisation, even
:21:54. > :21:57.potential privatisation of our school system across the UK, the
:21:58. > :22:01.heartless approach to orphaned refugees in Europe, and yet we are
:22:02. > :22:05.talking about divisions within the Labour Party. They are indeed the
:22:06. > :22:10.most ineffective official opposition probably in British political
:22:11. > :22:17.history. What would come back look like? It would look like a 50%
:22:18. > :22:21.increase in our membership and gaining more council by-election
:22:22. > :22:24.seats and more votes in those by-elections than any other party,
:22:25. > :22:29.which incidentally is exactly what is happening. There is a real sense
:22:30. > :22:33.we are finding people on the doorsteps being very ready to listen
:22:34. > :22:38.to our message. We have got to fight for attention and to get onto the
:22:39. > :22:43.stage at all. The results last May but us in that position but I am an
:22:44. > :22:55.optimistic kind of person. We have an enormous challenge on our plate,
:22:56. > :22:58.we have a Tory government which is very arrogant, taking for granted
:22:59. > :23:00.the fact they are in office, being all the more arrogance because their
:23:01. > :23:03.official opposition is shambolic, and the desperate need for the good
:23:04. > :23:09.of Britain to be a Liberal Democrat revival. Given that you are doing so
:23:10. > :23:14.well in local government by-elections, you must hope to do
:23:15. > :23:21.much better on Thursday than the 331 English councillors you currently
:23:22. > :23:24.have? I think I would be in dangerous territory if I start
:23:25. > :23:28.giving you figures but I am increasingly confident we will do
:23:29. > :23:33.much better than we did last May. The sense I am getting on the
:23:34. > :23:36.doorstep around the country is positive, people listening. Lots of
:23:37. > :23:40.people who are progressive, centre-left voters who feel utterly
:23:41. > :23:45.disappointed with the Labour Party as a movement at the moment. And
:23:46. > :23:49.many people switched off by the Conservatives, one example of that
:23:50. > :23:53.was a councillor in Yeovil who is a case worker for the Conservative MP
:23:54. > :23:57.there who defected to the Liberal Democrats, actually having to give
:23:58. > :24:05.up her job in the process because she realised that what the Tories
:24:06. > :24:09.were offering last May is not what they are delivering. We have started
:24:10. > :24:14.down the road of serious unfairness, taking money away from people with
:24:15. > :24:21.disability, people dependent on the NHS and care services, and behaving
:24:22. > :24:32.in an inhuman way towards the child refugees. Will you add to your tally
:24:33. > :24:37.of council seats? I hope so. I hope so and I couldn't tell you either
:24:38. > :24:40.way. You have been telling me how good you are doing in the local
:24:41. > :24:45.government by-elections, why wouldn't you do just as well on
:24:46. > :24:48.Thursday? I am telling you things that have happened, I'm not capable
:24:49. > :24:56.of telling you things that will happen. Let me come onto your key
:24:57. > :25:02.message. Your key message for the local elections is you are pledging
:25:03. > :25:05.to fight unnecessary cuts to university services, how credible is
:25:06. > :25:07.that when you spent five years in power with the Tories presiding over
:25:08. > :25:16.these cuts? We spent five years writing the
:25:17. > :25:19.economy and protecting front-line services from those cuts. What
:25:20. > :25:22.happened is over five years we help to get the country in a position
:25:23. > :25:26.where the books were all but balanced. We got to a crossroads
:25:27. > :25:31.where we make a decision as a country, do we carry on cutting or
:25:32. > :25:35.is this the time we say, we have stabilise the financial situation,
:25:36. > :25:39.now it is the time to go easy and to put money into front-line services?
:25:40. > :25:45.You will see at this point in time we have a Conservative government
:25:46. > :25:50.that has chosen to give away tax cuts to the wealthy at a time it is
:25:51. > :25:54.passing on cuts through local government to social services, to
:25:55. > :25:59.schools, highways and so on. We say politics is about choosing. At this
:26:00. > :26:03.point, having got the economy from the brink, this is the point of
:26:04. > :26:06.government, and if the Liberal Democrats are in government, we
:26:07. > :26:11.would be choosing not to give tax cuts to the wealthy but supporting
:26:12. > :26:16.public services such as those run by local authorities. When you were in
:26:17. > :26:22.power, in government, you close to 350 libraries, closed 350 youth
:26:23. > :26:27.centres and around 600 sure start centres. Now you are posed as the
:26:28. > :26:32.anti-cuts party, no one will believe you? When we were in government we
:26:33. > :26:38.prevented the Conservatives making far greater cuts. One of the great
:26:39. > :26:42.sadness is for me, or an irony is it has taken the last 12 months of
:26:43. > :26:50.seeing what the Conservatives do without us to see what a difference
:26:51. > :26:54.we made. They managed to do that with you in power. And now you are
:26:55. > :27:01.trying to tell the voters who are against all these cuts, cuts you
:27:02. > :27:04.presided over in government. I am not Jeremy Corbyn, I won't come onto
:27:05. > :27:07.this programme and say you never need to make tough decisions in
:27:08. > :27:12.government. We were very clear over those five years we were acting in
:27:13. > :27:16.the national interest to balance those books.
:27:17. > :27:24.Whether you blame Labour or the banks, the mess was there. We
:27:25. > :27:29.responded responsibly. But one of the issues we should be talking more
:27:30. > :27:33.about this week but sadly Labour's internal divisions has taken it off
:27:34. > :27:37.the front pages is the junior doctors scandal. Remember, just over
:27:38. > :27:40.a year ago it was my colleague Norman Lamb who prevented that
:27:41. > :27:44.contract being written in the first place. It was only the Conservatives
:27:45. > :27:47.getting into power on their own without us which meant they pushed
:27:48. > :27:52.forward on that cart to our national health service. If forcing of
:27:53. > :27:56.schools to turn into academies, something we blocked. Further cuts
:27:57. > :28:00.to the police, we blocked, the Conservatives are now putting in
:28:01. > :28:05.place. We were the party that believed we should live within our
:28:06. > :28:09.means, in our ability to fund public services on the basis of how wealthy
:28:10. > :28:14.the country is. Over five tough years the Liberal Democrats helped
:28:15. > :28:18.balance the books and get us out of the financial crisis. We say you
:28:19. > :28:24.don't then make more cuts you don't need to. You didn't lose the books,
:28:25. > :28:31.Mr Farron. You left behind a deficit of about ?80 billion. Let me just
:28:32. > :28:36.finally ask you this, you have five members in Holyrood, five in the
:28:37. > :28:45.cabinet is amply, two in the London assembly. Of the seats up for grabs,
:28:46. > :28:47.three and 31 councillors. If you don't improve in at least a couple
:28:48. > :28:55.of these areas, does your leadership come under pressure, doesn't have
:28:56. > :28:58.consequences for you? -- 331 councillors. You set out the case
:28:59. > :29:01.clearly at the beginning of this interview, in the last couple of
:29:02. > :29:06.months we have been coming back from a devastating result for us. I don't
:29:07. > :29:11.expect it to be an overnight success, but my sense is as I have
:29:12. > :29:15.been knocking on doors is you find a warming towards a Liberal Democrat
:29:16. > :29:19.message. A sense if you vote Liberal Democrat, makes a difference. That
:29:20. > :29:23.you have people working on the ground in your local community to
:29:24. > :29:28.get things done. So you will do better? I just want to know if you
:29:29. > :29:32.will do better or not? I am no more others since sales and new, but I'm
:29:33. > :29:37.optimistic about how we will do this week. It feels more positive than a
:29:38. > :29:41.year ago. With a shocking Tory government, arrogant as it is, and a
:29:42. > :29:46.Labour opposition so shambolic, this is a moment where the Liberal
:29:47. > :29:48.Democrats need to recover and I m hopeful this week we will. Tim
:29:49. > :29:51.Farron, thank you for your time Well that's the Liberal Democrats,
:29:52. > :29:53.what about the Conservatives? Their local election campaign has
:29:54. > :29:55.been relatively low key these last few weeks,
:29:56. > :29:58.with the small matter of an EU referendum campaign taking
:29:59. > :30:00.up most of their time. You could say with Labour
:30:01. > :30:03.in the spotlight the pressure is off the Conservatives
:30:04. > :30:05.in the English local elections. These set of seats were last
:30:06. > :30:08.up for grabs in 2012, when George Osborne's so-called
:30:09. > :30:10.'omnishambles budget' had hit the headlines and the Tories slumped
:30:11. > :30:14.to winning only 884 seats, However, Ukip are targeting
:30:15. > :30:22.Conservative seats and significant losses to Mr Farage's party could be
:30:23. > :30:25.a sign the referendum campaign isn't What's more, there's been
:30:26. > :30:32.a lot of friendly fire in the last few months,
:30:33. > :30:35.with councillors across the country criticising government policy
:30:36. > :30:36.on a range of issues, including turning all schools
:30:37. > :30:38.into academies, more directly elected mayors and reductions
:30:39. > :30:40.in the grants from It is not just the EU
:30:41. > :30:48.that the Conservative Party And the Conservative's Local
:30:49. > :30:53.Government Minister Brandon Lewis joins me now from Chelmsford in
:30:54. > :31:05.Essex. Let me go straight to this business
:31:06. > :31:12.of forced academies in England. The Tory Cabinet member for Oxfordshire
:31:13. > :31:17.County Council says she will have to suck it up, but she thinks you have
:31:18. > :31:22.gone bonkers. Why have you gone bonkers? We haven't. I have to say,
:31:23. > :31:29.from my own experience, if I look at what I have seen in East Anglia and
:31:30. > :31:34.Great Yarmouth, the academies have reformed education. It is a good
:31:35. > :31:36.step forward, about making those schools autonomous, giving them
:31:37. > :31:39.independence. I understand councillors who have been involved
:31:40. > :31:44.in education want to continue to be involved in education. We have to do
:31:45. > :31:47.what is right for the pupils to get that improvement in educational
:31:48. > :31:50.standards. She is not against academies but against you forcing
:31:51. > :31:55.every schools to be academies. Plenty others share her concerns.
:31:56. > :32:03.Why don't you listen to your own people? We are listening to people.
:32:04. > :32:07.What we are saying is... You have to have a two way conversation.
:32:08. > :32:11.Academies have the ability to improve education. I have seen this
:32:12. > :32:15.first hand myself, with vast improvement in the offer of
:32:16. > :32:19.education for pupils. We have to put the pupils first. This is about
:32:20. > :32:22.making sure young people today are getting the best education, the best
:32:23. > :32:28.life chances to move forward and benefit from economics, growth and
:32:29. > :32:33.jobs for security. This is about making sure we do what is right for
:32:34. > :32:37.the pupils and to make sure they are getting the best education. We
:32:38. > :32:40.believe by putting schools in direct control of their destiny is the best
:32:41. > :32:45.way to give pupils the best opportunity. Whom are academies
:32:46. > :32:54.responsible accountable? I didn t hear that. Whom are academies
:32:55. > :32:57.accountable to? They have shown across the country having that
:32:58. > :33:02.independence, the knowledge of the teachers, the headteachers who run
:33:03. > :33:09.those schools and know what is best in that area... Who are they
:33:10. > :33:13.accountable to? It is important they have the opportunity... I asked to
:33:14. > :33:18.whom are they accountable? Ofsted will judge schools and Ofsted goes
:33:19. > :33:22.in and looks at schools and gives a review of what the school's position
:33:23. > :33:26.is and if it needs to improve, Ofsted is very clear. It is
:33:27. > :33:30.transparent, there is no secret and is well covered in the press local
:33:31. > :33:40.and national when schools have a challenge. No local accountability?
:33:41. > :33:44.I have never seen the school that has had a bad Ofsted report be able
:33:45. > :33:47.to keep it secret. It is a public thing and therefore there is a clear
:33:48. > :33:51.responsibility for the people in that school to move things forward,
:33:52. > :33:56.improve things. And looking at what is right for the pupils. You don't
:33:57. > :34:01.want now to have parent governors, so even if you get a bad Ofsted
:34:02. > :34:04.report, how do the parents hold that school accountable if under the
:34:05. > :34:09.white paper you propose they shouldn't be parent governors?
:34:10. > :34:13.Actually there can be parent governors. What it says is there
:34:14. > :34:16.doesn't have to be. There can be parent governors. I have seen
:34:17. > :34:20.academies in my own constituency and elsewhere where parent governors are
:34:21. > :34:26.important. Key to this is making sure the school itself, with the
:34:27. > :34:29.headteachers and the teachers themselves, who know what is best to
:34:30. > :34:32.move education board, have the opportunity to do that. This is
:34:33. > :34:37.about looking what is right and best for pupils, to get the best possible
:34:38. > :34:41.education, the best start in life. Let's look at local government
:34:42. > :34:45.spending now. You have slashed grants to local government over the
:34:46. > :34:51.years. Paul Carter, Conservative leader of Kent Council, he says the
:34:52. > :34:57.tank is now an empty and we really are, to use another analogy,
:34:58. > :35:00.scraping the barrel. Councils, even Tory councillors are saying under
:35:01. > :35:08.your government they are now scraping the barrel. Local
:35:09. > :35:11.government accounts for about 2 % of all public expenditure. We have
:35:12. > :35:15.never been shy about being clear it has to play its part in dealing with
:35:16. > :35:17.debt and deficit. Over this parliament we will see local
:35:18. > :35:22.government in a very strong position. What local government can
:35:23. > :35:26.do and what it is doing when you look Oxfordshire, the Midlands, the
:35:27. > :35:36.North, East Anglia sharks, is making sure they are efficient. -- East
:35:37. > :35:41.Anglia. It is under pound cheaper than Liberal Democrat equivalents,
:35:42. > :35:45.showing really good efficiencies to deliver good quality front line
:35:46. > :35:52.services. At the same time. Paul is an excellent leader, but Lemi - let
:35:53. > :35:59.me be clear, local government surpluses has gone up from 13 to ?22
:36:00. > :36:03.billion. That is a testament to the efficiencies local governments have
:36:04. > :36:06.shown. It shows there is capacity to go further and also bearing in mind
:36:07. > :36:12.the grant from central government is a small part of the finance for
:36:13. > :36:19.local government. It comes from as a tax, rates and new home tax. Why
:36:20. > :36:26.does he he now Xavi cuts would have a real impact, are having a real
:36:27. > :36:31.impact on people and communities? It is a Conservative saying this? We
:36:32. > :36:38.have to live within our means and make those difficult decisions. They
:36:39. > :36:43.deliver the best decisions to do that. We have seen those
:36:44. > :36:48.efficiencies. Councils are ?80 a year cheaper than the Labour
:36:49. > :36:51.equivalent. Or local authorities, particularly the district councils,
:36:52. > :36:55.though smaller local councils, as Great Yarmouth is doing, should see
:36:56. > :37:01.how they can share chief executives to make sure the efficiencies can
:37:02. > :37:06.deliver good front line services, dozens of councils across the
:37:07. > :37:09.country from Oxfordshire through to Staffordshire, East Anglia and the
:37:10. > :37:13.Midlands are doing this. We can see more of that. There is more
:37:14. > :37:17.opportunity for that. It doesn't just a liver efficiencies by better
:37:18. > :37:21.front line services. When you have been making these funding cuts, why
:37:22. > :37:26.have they disproportionately fallen on Labour areas, which tend to be
:37:27. > :37:30.poorer, and not Tory areas which tend to be richer? Why have you hit
:37:31. > :37:35.the poorer parts of this country with your cuts? With the best of
:37:36. > :37:38.respect, I think the framing of that is slightly misleading. Let's get to
:37:39. > :37:42.the core of what's going on. One of the worst hit councils in the
:37:43. > :37:47.country has been my own in Great Yarmouth. The reason for that goes
:37:48. > :37:51.back historically, before they left power Labour cut the fund that hit
:37:52. > :37:55.councils with the poorest background. And those are the same
:37:56. > :38:02.authorities that have the highest spending power. They had more to
:38:03. > :38:06.spend per household than the equivalent Conservative verities.
:38:07. > :38:10.More needs. Labour led councils like Liverpool, even if they just
:38:11. > :38:15.collected the council tax, it would be ?500 per house better off
:38:16. > :38:20.roughly. We need to make sure these efficiencies are there. The average
:38:21. > :38:26.cup per household in the Tory area is calculated to be ?68 per person
:38:27. > :38:32.per household by the end of this parliament. The Labour councils per
:38:33. > :38:38.household is ?340. You are picking on the poorer parts this country. We
:38:39. > :38:42.also have to bear in mind the spending power in the first places
:38:43. > :38:47.much higher. Because they had more than they needed to spend on. That
:38:48. > :38:51.is why their spending power can be up to ?1500 more in some places than
:38:52. > :38:55.the equivalent smaller district area. They still do have higher
:38:56. > :39:00.spending power per household. And that is why extra money, an extra
:39:01. > :39:03.?300 million was put in for those transitional works, because as we
:39:04. > :39:07.get to the end of this parliament, the change we made to put more money
:39:08. > :39:11.in with a focus on social care, those authorities start to get more
:39:12. > :39:14.money coming through again. Thank you for joining us, Brandon Lewis.
:39:15. > :39:16.It's just gone 11.40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:17. > :39:19.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:20. > :39:22.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:23. > :39:32.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:39:33. > :39:39.Issues of faith, race and identity are dominating the mayoral campaign,
:39:40. > :39:44.Labour's candidate, Sadiq Khan, today admits that the row which blew
:39:45. > :39:47.up over Ken Livingstone's comments this week could cost him support -
:39:48. > :39:53.especially among Jewish voters in the capital.
:39:54. > :39:55.But the Conservative candidate, Zac Goldsmith, is having difficulty
:39:56. > :39:58.shaking off the claim this has been one of the nastiest
:39:59. > :40:10.We'll talk to him in a moment, after Andrew Cryan reports.
:40:11. > :40:13.A huge turnout for Boris Johnson in Bexley helped the Conservatives
:40:14. > :40:15.win City Hall in both of the last two mayoral elections,
:40:16. > :40:23.so with just days to go, where better for the candidate this
:40:24. > :40:26.year, Zac Goldsmith, to try and get out the vote?
:40:27. > :40:28.Before this election campaign, Zac Goldsmith was
:40:29. > :40:29.probably best known as an environmental campaigner.
:40:30. > :40:40.He used to edit a magazine called The Ecologist and made his name
:40:41. > :40:42.as an MP opposing the expansion of Heathrow Airport.
:40:43. > :40:44.But those aren't the issues that this election is really
:40:45. > :40:48.I'm standing to build more homes, to help Londoners earning average
:40:49. > :40:50.incomes get the keys to their first home.
:40:51. > :40:53.I'm going to protect the transport budget to keep London moving
:40:54. > :40:56.And I'm going to make sure London is safe.
:40:57. > :40:59.I will give the police the tools, the backing, and the resources
:41:00. > :41:04.On housing, he says he wants to build 50,000 new homes a year
:41:05. > :41:06.and make sure Londoners get what he calls first
:41:07. > :41:09.He's promised to freeze council tax but won't make a similar
:41:10. > :41:11.promise on transport fares, saying it's vital
:41:12. > :41:13.that the capital gets the new infrastructure
:41:14. > :41:16.But at West Ham football club this week, for an event
:41:17. > :41:19.for Show Racism The Red Card, his Labour rival, Sadiq Khan,
:41:20. > :41:22.told us he thought Zac Goldsmith's plan for Londoners was one
:41:23. > :41:28.We have had for the last eight years a Conservative mayor,
:41:29. > :41:30.for the last six years a Conservative Prime Minister,
:41:31. > :41:34.Londoners are being priced out of our city because of
:41:35. > :41:40.We pay the most expensive public transport fares in all of Europe.
:41:41. > :41:43.It is quite clear Zac would accept TfL's plans to increase
:41:44. > :41:47.Now, Zac Goldsmith has always said he wants to fight a positive
:41:48. > :41:49.campaign that focuses on issues and not personalities,
:41:50. > :41:52.but according to lots of people actually what he's done is used
:41:53. > :41:55.the Conservative Party machine to attack his rival, Sadiq Khan
:41:56. > :41:59.In particular they say that he has spoken at the same events as Islamic
:42:00. > :42:05.extremists, and in his own words, the Labour candidate has said that
:42:06. > :42:07.when he worked as a human rights lawyer he represented
:42:08. > :42:14.We need a better explanation from the Labour candidate
:42:15. > :42:20.of what he's been doing in seeming to support these characters.
:42:21. > :42:22.But that line of attack has drawn criticism,
:42:23. > :42:27.The veteran political journalist Peter Oborne is a lifelong Tory
:42:28. > :42:30.but says the nature of Zac's campaign will mean he's voting
:42:31. > :42:38.Sadiq Khan is as mainstream as you come.
:42:39. > :42:40.He fights anti-Semitism, he voted for same-sex marriage.
:42:41. > :42:43.You know, he's against extremism, and he's been portrayed as some
:42:44. > :42:49.untrustworthy radical in the literature of Zac Goldsmith.
:42:50. > :42:55.If you can't vote for Sadiq Khan as a Muslim elected leader,
:42:56. > :43:01.what Muslim is there you ever can vote for?
:43:02. > :43:06.This is why it's a very important election.
:43:07. > :43:08.It's very important that Londoners vote out Zac Goldsmith
:43:09. > :43:12.There's also been criticism of Zac Goldsmith's leaflets,
:43:13. > :43:14.some of which have seemingly targeted specific religious
:43:15. > :43:20.Other leaflets called Sadiq Khan a radical, which was seen by some
:43:21. > :43:26.It's very obvious what I was referring to when I described him
:43:27. > :43:29.as a radical candidate, as part of a radical process that
:43:30. > :43:31.has enveloped the Labour Party and taken our politics
:43:32. > :43:37.We have now an opposition party which is much more extreme
:43:38. > :43:42.But is Sadiq Khan really standing on a radical platform?
:43:43. > :43:44.When compared to Zac Goldsmith's own one-page summary
:43:45. > :43:49.of his policies, it appears to be almost the same offer.
:43:50. > :43:51.Looking at the one-page policy platform, it's amazing how similar
:43:52. > :43:58.The only real difference is that Zac Goldsmith is promising no
:43:59. > :44:00.council tax increase, whereas Sadiq Khan is promising no
:44:01. > :44:10.Other than that, it's almost the same platform.
:44:11. > :44:13.But perhaps the biggest question that will be answered this week
:44:14. > :44:15.is whether Zac Goldsmith's approach will be enough to persuade enough
:44:16. > :44:18.of his supporters to vote and make him the next
:44:19. > :44:33.Welcome. Let's talk about the whole campaign first. A few years ago you
:44:34. > :44:39.said in a newspaper interview that the idea of you standing for mayor
:44:40. > :44:43.would be a suicide mission. Is that how it is proving? It is a
:44:44. > :44:47.completely new experience to me it couldn't be more different fighting
:44:48. > :44:54.a constituency election where you talk to everyone. It is a big city,
:44:55. > :45:04.a .5 million people, ?600 billion economy, it is huge so it is a very
:45:05. > :45:06.different kind of campaign but it has been a magnificent experience
:45:07. > :45:09.and I feel very positive about campaigning. We have three days to
:45:10. > :45:17.go but I feel the more people I talk to, the great -- the greater the
:45:18. > :45:23.momentum is. I was quite struck by this, I think people have had quite
:45:24. > :45:28.enough of white mares, has but also been proved in this campaign? You
:45:29. > :45:32.don't look like the capital? What does the capital look like? It is
:45:33. > :45:38.one of the most diverse cities in the world and that it's a strength.
:45:39. > :45:44.Strip away that diversity, London would be a very pale imitation of
:45:45. > :45:48.what it is. There is no one person that can capture London by that
:45:49. > :45:54.definition. They were heartfelt comments, I forget when, three years
:45:55. > :46:04.ago, standing for mayor was not even close to being on my radar. Alice
:46:05. > :46:08.Thompson Conservative columnist says Zac Goldsmith fails to convince us
:46:09. > :46:15.that he wants to be in City Hall, he doesn't look like he cares whether
:46:16. > :46:21.he wins. You are not convincing anyone you could bleed. I could be
:46:22. > :46:25.accused of many things, but I have always stuck by my principles as an
:46:26. > :46:29.MP and that's why I'm often described as an independent minded
:46:30. > :46:37.campaigning MP. I was returned in the last election with the biggest
:46:38. > :46:42.increase, you can't get a better reference than that from your
:46:43. > :46:46.constituents. How was it that after we have had a Conservative mayor for
:46:47. > :46:50.two turns and a Conservative government controlling, doing what
:46:51. > :46:56.they can with London, it doesn't look as if you are breaking through
:46:57. > :47:01.or there is a record the voters are reacting to. I don't agree with
:47:02. > :47:06.that. The only thing you have to go buy are couple of opinion polls I
:47:07. > :47:10.am on the ground talking to voters every day, I do public meetings
:47:11. > :47:16.which are standing room only in every part of London and the
:47:17. > :47:22.reaction is positive. It is true people are not engaged with this
:47:23. > :47:26.campaign until recently. Does there lie the reason, we will come onto
:47:27. > :47:31.that in a moment. Boris Johnson has been on the campaign trail with you
:47:32. > :47:35.a lot. It is a nightmare scenario that you had to follow him as a
:47:36. > :47:42.personality but he doesn't have a particularly good record you can
:47:43. > :47:47.defend? He is unique in British politics, you see, you have a few
:47:48. > :47:51.clips there. I have been on the Trail with him many times, he is
:47:52. > :47:57.swamped, no one else in British politics has that reaction. Anyone
:47:58. > :48:05.who tries to stand as Boris Mark two is heading for a crash. Unless you
:48:06. > :48:10.are going to tell me 5000 affordable homes is good enough... Is it good
:48:11. > :48:15.enough last year? If you look at his record as a whole it is a good
:48:16. > :48:19.record. He was left it at a time when recession clouds were hovering
:48:20. > :48:25.over London, he viewed the world with confidence in London which
:48:26. > :48:30.London badly needed at the time If you were inheriting this, the last
:48:31. > :48:34.year of a royalty, how can you account for just affordable homes?
:48:35. > :48:38.I'm not going to pretend enough homes have been built but equally he
:48:39. > :48:46.build more homes than Ken Livingstone did. Not social homes,
:48:47. > :48:52.council homes. The gap between supply and demand is so wide and now
:48:53. > :48:57.that you can the burning of really significant salary... I didn't want
:48:58. > :49:00.to interrupt but why would anyone believe the Conservative candidate
:49:01. > :49:08.would be the person coming up with the answers? People will look at my
:49:09. > :49:13.manifesto, I hope, I am incredibly proud of it. It is a comprehensive
:49:14. > :49:17.plan for tackling the big challenges London faces. It is a detailed
:49:18. > :49:22.costed, bullet-proof manifesto. People will look at my record, I
:49:23. > :49:28.don't make promises I cannot keep which is why I have done well as a
:49:29. > :49:35.constituency MP. I wonder whether you will accept... I need to make
:49:36. > :49:40.this point. We are four days away from an election, people will not
:49:41. > :49:46.judge anyone on the back of promises, they are cheap in
:49:47. > :49:51.politics, but they will look at our records and I encourage anyone to
:49:52. > :49:58.compare my record with any of my rivals'. How is it that you want to
:49:59. > :50:04.be judged on your record, that you completely failed to persuade the
:50:05. > :50:10.Chancellor of the Government to deprive London transport of ?2.
:50:11. > :50:13.billion to take it away from its budget at this time for investment
:50:14. > :50:18.for improvements for the Tube network, how did you do that? I
:50:19. > :50:30.successfully challenged the Chancellor's attempt to remove 2
:50:31. > :50:37.million from the Met's budget. I am not talking about the police, how
:50:38. > :50:48.did you not stop them from removing ?2.8 billion over the next four
:50:49. > :50:53.years... I have won some really significant battles for London, not
:50:54. > :50:59.least protecting the police budget. But you know how fundamentally. .
:51:00. > :51:03.Sadiq Khan was nowhere to be seen. I have pledged to protect the
:51:04. > :51:09.transport budget, it makes that pledge even more important. We
:51:10. > :51:15.cannot afford to billion pound fares offer for London, if we did it would
:51:16. > :51:19.decimate the transport budget. Of course you know if you are going to
:51:20. > :51:24.be maintaining that investment, you know fares have to go up to pay for
:51:25. > :51:29.it according to the business plan for TfL so you must here and now
:51:30. > :51:36.clarified that fares must go up under you. In any promise, any
:51:37. > :51:40.action plan for London you have a set of priorities and my number one
:51:41. > :51:49.priority is to protect the transport budget. If I don't, London will
:51:50. > :51:53.grind to a standstill. We know you might want to protect the budget,
:51:54. > :51:59.for the reasons I have given you about the money that has been
:52:00. > :52:03.withdrawn... After protecting the budget, which is the overwhelming
:52:04. > :52:07.priority, that is the commitment I have made. After that I will bear
:52:08. > :52:12.down on cost at every opportunity and hunt for the inefficiencies in
:52:13. > :52:18.TfL, of which there are many but I cannot give you affairs promise So
:52:19. > :52:22.you know it is possible under Zac Goldsmith. You will be a very honest
:52:23. > :52:26.politician that it is possible these fares will go up? Anything is
:52:27. > :52:31.possible which is why I cannot make a pledge on fares, my pledge is that
:52:32. > :52:39.I will grow the transport network because if I don't we won't solve
:52:40. > :52:44.the housing crisis. Talking of Boris Johnson as we were, and on the big
:52:45. > :52:48.issue of this weekend, Boris Johnson says there is an ideological
:52:49. > :52:52.continuum between the views of Ken Livingstone, the position of Jeremy
:52:53. > :52:56.Corbyn and the views of Sadiq Khan which some have taken to indicate
:52:57. > :53:01.Sadiq Khan is anti-Semitic in some form. You were asked about this on
:53:02. > :53:06.the Today programme and it was suggested Sadiq Khan has never been
:53:07. > :53:13.anti-Semitic and you didn't answer clearly. Can you be clear... I don't
:53:14. > :53:17.believe Sadiq Khan is anti-Semitic. I was ambiguous because I cannot
:53:18. > :53:26.tell you what he has been saying 20 years ago but I can tell you... You
:53:27. > :53:32.cannot add that. My answer is I don't believe he is anti-Semitic. Do
:53:33. > :53:38.you believe Boris Johnson's comments were unfortunate, you disassociate
:53:39. > :53:43.yourself? I don't think that is what he said. He didn't describe Sadiq
:53:44. > :53:48.Khan is anti-Semitic. He described Sadiq Khan, Ken Livingstone, Jeremy
:53:49. > :53:53.Corbyn and John McDonnell as being part of the same package, the same
:53:54. > :53:58.Labour Party. This was in relation to him describing a virulent
:53:59. > :54:01.anti-Semitism. It is the same programme, here's an architect of
:54:02. > :54:05.what has happened to the Labour Party, and from the top to the
:54:06. > :54:11.bottom it has a massive problem with anti-Semitism. Baroness Warsi says
:54:12. > :54:18.that the can't isn't an acceptable enough Muslims to stand for mayor,
:54:19. > :54:24.if so which Muslim is, social certainly thinks she knows what he
:54:25. > :54:27.was saying. I think Boris Johnson is right, there is a package of which
:54:28. > :54:33.Sadiq Khan... Of course he will wriggle to separate himself from Ken
:54:34. > :54:38.Livingstone today but two weeks ago they were on the same platform. You
:54:39. > :54:42.have made it clear again you have no evidence or anything to suggest that
:54:43. > :54:50.Sadiq Khan in any way shares his views. I am not going to accuse
:54:51. > :54:54.Sadiq Khan of that. He had to act quickly but I wish he had acted
:54:55. > :54:59.quickly last time Ken Livingstone made these comments. I think you
:55:00. > :55:03.will find Ken Livingstone in the end, having initially been suspended
:55:04. > :55:09.from office, was reinstated so he was on the right side of the
:55:10. > :55:15.argument. If you are defending Ken Livingstone... Guess what, I don't
:55:16. > :55:23.have to defend anyone either way. Have you found at any stage in your
:55:24. > :55:28.research any evidence of Sadiq Khan saying, doing, being extremist in
:55:29. > :55:33.any way? Right, he's not extreme and you set up last night? What's wrong
:55:34. > :55:37.with a lawyer defending unsavoury characters? These are the words of
:55:38. > :55:41.Sadiq Khan himself, what's wrong with that?
:55:42. > :55:48.When Jeremy Corbyn was standing for leadership you was attacked by
:55:49. > :55:52.people like Yvette Cooper for defending people with extreme views.
:55:53. > :55:55.Her view was you should not do that, these people should have no
:55:56. > :56:00.association with the Labour Party. That same question has been linked
:56:01. > :56:03.to the Sadiq Khan. Why are you citing Yvette Cooper? You need to
:56:04. > :56:10.tell the viewers, Yvette Cooper not long ago said something that was
:56:11. > :56:12.completely racist... It would puzzles me that she would except
:56:13. > :56:16.people like me and everyone else asking this question to apply a
:56:17. > :56:20.lower set of standards for Sadiq Khan. Just quickly again. We need to
:56:21. > :56:26.pick it a little bit. Is there anything wrong with a lawyer
:56:27. > :56:32.defending unsavoury characters? Are good lawyers just the preserve of
:56:33. > :56:38.the super-rich? The links described in relation to Sadiq Khan go very
:56:39. > :56:43.far and very deep. Some of them relate to his work as a lawyer and
:56:44. > :56:48.some to an MP. But for someone who chooses to show a platform with a
:56:49. > :56:52.person who talks about throwing Jews in the sea and running them... I
:56:53. > :56:58.don't think it would be appropriate. The viewers won't know what you re
:56:59. > :57:02.referring to. The person that did or didn't say that isn't here to review
:57:03. > :57:09.that. As a lawyer, to choose to represent someone involved in
:57:10. > :57:12.9/11... I have said it is not appropriate, these individuals are
:57:13. > :57:18.not here to defend or give any sense of context... People are saying
:57:19. > :57:25.that is exactly what you're trying to do here. Are sending a message.
:57:26. > :57:31.There are many, many examples of Sadiq Khan having shared platforms
:57:32. > :57:34.with, given oxygen to and made apologies for people with extreme
:57:35. > :57:39.views. That is a legitimate question to ask. The idea that someone
:57:40. > :57:42.standing for Mayor of London with a big security remit to expect those
:57:43. > :57:47.questions not to be asked and that person to close down questions with
:57:48. > :57:54.the use of words like... Does the London less safe? I think he has
:57:55. > :57:58.appalling judgment. Does he make it less safe? If you are sharing
:57:59. > :58:05.platforms and giving oxygen to people who do that, is not safe
:58:06. > :58:09.thing to do. Is he saved to run London's transport system? There are
:58:10. > :58:15.many other reasons... Housing? All the important about the job, it
:58:16. > :58:22.doesn't make unsuitable? There are many reasons I think why Sadiq Khan
:58:23. > :58:25.is unreasonable for the job. I would love to talk about housing, I think
:58:26. > :58:29.his transport policies don't add up. I would love to talk about that
:58:30. > :58:38.When we consider the people with whom you have attempted to smear
:58:39. > :58:44.Sadiq Khan by association with, he opposes their views, he has fallen
:58:45. > :58:48.out with them. He has taken the view controversial in the Muslim faith,
:58:49. > :58:54.agreeing to same-sex marriage. Is it legitimate? I am asking you a
:58:55. > :58:58.question. You are suggesting is not legitimate to ask questions about
:58:59. > :59:06.people with links to people... When he does that? I am not suggesting
:59:07. > :59:09.Sadiq Khan has dodgy views, I think he is opportunistic, has appalling
:59:10. > :59:13.judgment and shouldn't have done the things he has done. But it is a
:59:14. > :59:17.matter of judgment, not opinion I think I am entitled, as is anyone
:59:18. > :59:22.else who raises questions, to raise those questioned. You are. I think
:59:23. > :59:27.it is wrong to suggest there is something racist about asking
:59:28. > :59:31.questions of a person because they are a Muslim. Let's keep it on
:59:32. > :59:35.judgment. The judgment that is good enough, OK for you and the
:59:36. > :59:41.Conservative Parliamentary candidates to meet people, to meet
:59:42. > :59:46.such people, told Muslim forums in south London. Why is it OK for you?
:59:47. > :59:53.You have to explain your question. You have met individuals who you
:59:54. > :59:58.cite is being Sadiq Khan's... You have been out on the trail with me.
:59:59. > :00:03.I think you are talking about a selfie? He went on the trail with
:00:04. > :00:08.me, you saw a clip, I do hundreds or thousands of selfies everyday. I
:00:09. > :00:14.can't do a security check on each of them. What I would not do is share a
:00:15. > :00:18.platform with someone on the wrong side of the ideological battle we
:00:19. > :00:23.are engaging an. I would share a platform to challenge them but not
:00:24. > :00:27.in and any other context. And I wouldn't do a selfie with someone if
:00:28. > :00:32.I knew they were. The Conservative candidate, the were inviting him and
:00:33. > :00:37.to bring his friends. I cannot answer that. It was a public meeting
:00:38. > :00:40.I was invited to speak out. I enjoyed speaking at it, in
:00:41. > :00:47.encouraging young Muslims to get involved in politics. Which Sadiq
:00:48. > :00:52.Khan does a lot, and this was his constituency. And that is good
:00:53. > :00:57.stuff. Fine. It is different and sharing a platform and apologising
:00:58. > :01:01.for someone who says thing... This is his constituency. What is your
:01:02. > :01:05.excuse, going into an area you have nothing to do with? It is not
:01:06. > :01:09.apologising for views that are completely boring. If someone were
:01:10. > :01:19.to say we want to drown Israel's Jews in the sea... You mentioned it
:01:20. > :01:23.again. The concern is... He has never permitted any violence or
:01:24. > :01:29.terrorism in any form. Let's talk about the wider forum... I was
:01:30. > :01:35.quoting someone who is appalled as I am. A final thought, an FT editorial
:01:36. > :01:38.this week, that if you are going to lose, would it not be better that
:01:39. > :01:42.you didn't do it with dishonour and people are going to remember this
:01:43. > :01:49.campaign question what I reject the premise of what you're saying. It is
:01:50. > :01:53.not dishonourable to ask a question, as is my background, the things I
:01:54. > :01:57.have said has been pored over by Sadiq Khan's team. That is fair
:01:58. > :02:01.enough. If I have said something in the past, which I don't believe I
:02:02. > :02:05.have, which I ought to explain now, go for it, that is what happens in
:02:06. > :02:09.politics. There is no dishonour asking questions about other
:02:10. > :02:13.candidates. But the overwhelming part of my campaign has been about
:02:14. > :02:18.what I would do as Mayor of London. Thank you for being here today.
:02:19. > :02:23.You can see a full list of all the candidates standing
:02:24. > :02:25.in the Mayoral election on the screen now.
:02:26. > :02:28.And further information is available on the BBC London website.
:02:29. > :02:34.What will Labour's anti-Semitism row mean for the party's election
:02:35. > :02:38.Is Jeremy Corbyn facing a possible challenge to his leadership?
:02:39. > :02:41.And what are the Leave and Remain teams plotting for the
:02:42. > :03:06.Elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly,
:03:07. > :03:11.English local areas, and London now. Labour is fighting in all of these
:03:12. > :03:17.areas. How do we judge Mr Corbyn's party performance? I think you need
:03:18. > :03:22.a symbolic victory in London. In many ways it will matter less than
:03:23. > :03:25.doing well in English local council elections. Councils are your
:03:26. > :03:29.campaigning base for a general election in four years' time. It is
:03:30. > :03:34.a much more sexy office, the London mayor. It's the Khan wins I think it
:03:35. > :03:38.gets him out of trouble, gets Joe Clee Corbyn out of some trouble
:03:39. > :03:43.deservedly or not. The result I m beginning to think might end up
:03:44. > :03:55.being historic is in Scotland. If the Conservatives finished second, I
:03:56. > :03:59.think it establishes two things One, the idea that a left-wing
:04:00. > :04:01.Labour Party can recover some of the ground lost to the SNP, a very
:04:02. > :04:03.popular idea in the leadership contest last summer, will suffer.
:04:04. > :04:06.And more significant is if the Tories finished second, it will
:04:07. > :04:09.confirm Ruth Davidson as the most interesting, maybe the most talented
:04:10. > :04:13.politician of the Next Generation and there will be a lot of pressure
:04:14. > :04:18.from the London branch of the Tory to tempt her down. To take away the
:04:19. > :04:26.only winner the Tories might have had in two generations question what
:04:27. > :04:33.yes. She could be a potentially compelling UK wide figure. At the
:04:34. > :04:41.end of the day, if Jeremy Corbyn holds on to London, which the polls
:04:42. > :04:45.tell us he will, then he is OK. I think the Tories must be praying
:04:46. > :04:51.that he will be OK. He is the gift that goes on giving. Is it in the
:04:52. > :04:57.Tory interest the Tories not to hold on to London? I think it is in Tory
:04:58. > :05:01.interests that Jeremy Corbyn survives as leader, no one else
:05:02. > :05:04.could be as good further Tories except maybe the Shadow Chancellor.
:05:05. > :05:10.The people who are not paying terribly close attention to the
:05:11. > :05:15.detail of this row, even though they must be aware of the vague issues,
:05:16. > :05:20.there is a conclusion beginning to surface that the Labour Party is
:05:21. > :05:24.being done by crazy people. If they choose the Shadow Chancellor, who is
:05:25. > :05:29.a much harder character, would be a much more muscular version of Jeremy
:05:30. > :05:33.Corbyn and probably less incompetent looking, more impressive as a
:05:34. > :05:39.personality, that means that the hold of the hard left of Labour will
:05:40. > :05:43.be embedded for a political generation, another three or four
:05:44. > :05:47.years. That would be a different problem for the Tories, because they
:05:48. > :05:50.wouldn't just be able to make him look Ludogrets. How has it come
:05:51. > :05:59.about? This is the first electoral test for the government. A year on
:06:00. > :06:02.from the last election and usually we judge them by how is the
:06:03. > :06:06.government faring? How is it beginning to lose about? And yet the
:06:07. > :06:11.yardsticks all seem to be about Labour, not the Tories. They have
:06:12. > :06:15.been about Labour for the last 2 hours, since they got into this
:06:16. > :06:18.crisis over the row on anti-Semitism. Before that the only
:06:19. > :06:21.thing we were talking about is the referendum. The reason we are not
:06:22. > :06:25.focusing so much on the Conservatives on how they are doing
:06:26. > :06:29.is David Cameron hasn't taken any interest in these elections on
:06:30. > :06:34.Thursday. He is absolutely focused on the EU referendum. For him it is
:06:35. > :06:38.a matter of life or death, whatever he says. He loses the referendum on
:06:39. > :06:42.the 23rd of June and that is the end of his premiership and the of George
:06:43. > :06:47.Osborne and the right life of the party will be in the descendants.
:06:48. > :06:53.But Thursday, what is about Thursday is still London election is the
:06:54. > :06:56.least significant election. When you want to know how is Labour going to
:06:57. > :07:02.do in the general election you need to look at Scotland and the English
:07:03. > :07:06.locals and Wales. But London will be symbolically the most significant
:07:07. > :07:10.election, because if as we assume Sadiq Khan wins, as Janan was
:07:11. > :07:14.saying, that will take the I've got a victory my back pocket box and
:07:15. > :07:20.Jeremy Corbyn will for the moment soldier one. You mentioned how these
:07:21. > :07:27.elections, as important as they are, have been overshadowed by the EU
:07:28. > :07:30.referendum on the 23rd of June. The Leave and Remain campaign have been
:07:31. > :07:33.putting out commercials, let's take a look.
:07:34. > :07:36.At the end of the war, Britain created the NHS.
:07:37. > :07:42.It protects us throughout our lives - but it's in danger.
:07:43. > :08:05.Remaining in Europe will create an extra 790,000 UK jobs by the time
:08:06. > :08:17.There we go. The first one to Leave and second Remain. The poll suggests
:08:18. > :08:22.they are winning the argument on the economy. But private polling
:08:23. > :08:28.suggests the NHS and immigration do well for Leave. What's going on
:08:29. > :08:35.here? They've looked at private polling and concluded on the economy
:08:36. > :08:41.Remain has a lead which is more or less insurmountable. On immigration
:08:42. > :08:49.Leave have an insurmountable lead. Rather than engage in a futile
:08:50. > :08:53.attempt to win back credibility on economy or immigration is better to
:08:54. > :08:58.spend everyday folks think the debate on your home territory. That
:08:59. > :09:01.is why I think if on the ballot in seven weeks' time the average voter
:09:02. > :09:07.sees the question as, what is the best way controlling immigration?
:09:08. > :09:12.Leave Will win. If the question is how do you preserve economic
:09:13. > :09:19.stability then Remain will win. By this time next week when the
:09:20. > :09:24.Thursday election results will have been analysed and so on, the EU
:09:25. > :09:31.referendum campaign starts proper. All the way until June 23. Does the
:09:32. > :09:35.Remain side not have a problem, it seems to have fired a lot of its
:09:36. > :09:40.ammunition already? It does, with that 200 page Treasury report. We
:09:41. > :09:44.have around two of the Treasury report. Ten years ago it was looking
:09:45. > :09:48.at the long-term consequences of an exit from the European Union. There
:09:49. > :09:51.is another report to go. That is the immediate consequences, which will
:09:52. > :09:55.basically say there will be a mighty recession and the pound would go
:09:56. > :09:59.through the floor. But remember we have two phases of the campaign We
:10:00. > :10:07.have about two and a half or three weeks after the local elections Up
:10:08. > :10:11.until that point government can put out any election document it wants,
:10:12. > :10:15.it can get civil servants to write in favour of the European Union 28
:10:16. > :10:20.days, from the end of May until the 23rd of June it means ministers can
:10:21. > :10:24.say what they like but they cannot use government machinery and
:10:25. > :10:27.government publications. You will watch a great blast from the
:10:28. > :10:36.government side in the three weeks after the local elections.
:10:37. > :11:18.The remaining side have made claims about what the jobs will be, but
:11:19. > :11:24.this doesn't surprise me at all I find the British the most resilient
:11:25. > :11:29.people against being threatened amongst any in the world. During the
:11:30. > :11:33.election campaign, every time Nicola Sturgeon said we are going to lock
:11:34. > :11:42.David Cameron out of Downing Street, I heard a chorus from British people
:11:43. > :11:46.saying oh yeah. Last night was the famous White House correspondents
:11:47. > :11:50.dinner, it is a time for comedy comedy acts even from the
:11:51. > :11:52.politicians. The president began by talking about his visit here. Let's
:11:53. > :11:56.listen. Even some foreign leaders,
:11:57. > :11:58.they've been looking ahead, Last week Prince George showed up
:11:59. > :12:01.to our meeting in his bathrobe. Although, while in
:12:02. > :12:16.England I did have lunch with Her Majesty The Queen,
:12:17. > :12:22.took in a performance of Shakespeare, hit the Links
:12:23. > :12:25.with David Cameron. Just in case anybody is still
:12:26. > :12:44.debating whether I'm black or not... The president there showing he has
:12:45. > :12:48.great comedic timing as well. He can be a stand-up man when he steps down
:12:49. > :12:54.from the White House. You have been to the Westminster dinner, it is not
:12:55. > :12:58.quite on the same scale. It is not. The most important thing this year
:12:59. > :13:02.is George Osborne, the year before it was Ed Miliband, their speech is
:13:03. > :13:06.on the record but not filmed. George Osborne delivered what was generally
:13:07. > :13:11.perceived as a very good joke because he told jokes at his own
:13:12. > :13:25.expense. This quite funny one about now I am on the 52-macro diet, I had
:13:26. > :13:29.to eat my words after the Budget. You are now off to Newsnight so we
:13:30. > :13:35.whipped together to get you a farewell present and there it is.
:13:36. > :13:40.But you only get that if you win a competition! That is how kind we are
:13:41. > :13:43.to you. Enjoy it because you won't get anything like that on Newsnight.
:13:44. > :13:47.The Daily Politics will be back on Tuesday at midday on BBC Two
:13:48. > :13:49.and I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11
:13:50. > :13:54.We will have all of these local election results.
:13:55. > :14:40.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:41. > :14:52.and discover the fascinating secret lives of buildings.
:14:53. > :14:55.The cruck blades are wobbly in a very symmetrical manner
:14:56. > :14:58.because each is cut from the same tree trunk.
:14:59. > :15:01.This was a very simple but strong form of construction
:15:02. > :15:06.Home Season starts with At Home With The British with me,